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The Prime Minister Christopher Luxen. He is on his way to China this week to meet with Jijinping. New Zealand's relationship with China has been a bit of a hot topic recently. Where is it not a hot topic? I guess many people saying we need to stop cozying up with the US. This past week, prominent New Zealand leaders signed an open letter to express concern about our closeness with the States and how it could impact our relationship
with China. One of them was a former Prime Minister and co signer of the letter, of course, Helen Clark, and she joins me now, Helen, Good afternoon.
Good afternoon.
What would success look like for New Zealand on this trip.
It's a very important trip and it's good that it's happening. When I was PM, I went to China for a bilateral visit once every three years, so it has to happen. It's such a major trade partner. But the visit can't
just be about trade. Important as that is, it's also a chance to talk with the most senior Chinese leadership about how they're seeing the world, to make some points about how New Zealand seeing the world, and have an all round exchange as the country with which we have a complex and strategic relationship.
Who drives the agenda and the conversations that had between prime ministers and premiers.
Pretty much you get to say what you want to say. I've sat down a number of these formal bilaterals, including in Beijing. In essence, they will welcome you, they will make an opening statement of some kind. The meetings with the President and with the Premier are quite different. The premier meeting is very much a working meeting, so he will welcome and then you pretty much get to set out your whole outline of what you want to say, and then he will come back and he will answer
point by point. With the President more formal, he will probably make a more full statement at the beginning. Then make your statement, which needs to be at quite a high level, and then there will be probably a shorter exchange. But they are very important meetings and you need to go in, you know, totally on top of the brief, when well prepared.
Yes to that. Actually, how much time did you used to spend preparing for such a meeting yourself.
When you did it, oh, you would swat over the brief all the way up on the plane really and make sure you were across every nuance, and you would meet with the officials beforehand, and you know, just check check the points you're going to make and what to expect. So you go in you know, very well briefed.
What do you think Jijunping and the Chinese are likely expecting from our visit.
I think what they would be hoping is to hear something a little more balanced about New Zealand foreign policy than the signals which have been coming through. It's no surprise to anyone to hear me say that there has been a lot of moving back towards the US military alliance that New Zealand abandoned decades ago in under the current government, and that will be of concerns the Chinese because they've seen New Zealand as an independent player in
foreign policy matters now. I think our Prime Minister goes very aware that US foreign policy and defense policy itself is somewhat erratic these days, so one can only be hopeful that he will, you know, sort of carefully calibrate the messages to China because it's a very important relationship to US. Doesn't mean that we're, you know, a puppet for them. We're not. We must never be, but we mustn't be a puppet for anybody, including the US.
I get does that sort of point towards what we might guess that Luxon may say look as you know, we might say, look at the United States is an ally, but he will be wanting to find a way of emphasizing that we are not told how to react on any international issue. We are the masters of our own destiny and that and our independence.
I think he needs to emphasize that, but he also needs to, in my view, send a signal that New Zealand is not going full throated into military alliances aimed at China. Why would you go into military alliances aimed at your key trading partner. So it's a bit hard to explain why the current governor's signing up to some of the things that's signing up to the US, because they do tend to point in one direction, and that's at China.
The open letter that you signed, there's one thing to sort of talk amongst colleagues and former colleagues and other leaders. What prompted you to what was the straw that broke the camel's back In terms of right, we're going to write an open letter and sign it and present it.
Concerns in the letter we've been expressing for some time. But I think we also see the opportunity of the Prime Minister's visit to put the relationship with China back on a better footing than it's been for the last eighteen months, when there's been a lot of pop shots from New Zealand aimed at at China. And look, we have our differences with China as a country, for sure, but we've also got a very important relationship, and diplomacy
is about how you manage relationships. I guess our message is that this visit is very critical and that we would like to see the good and careful balance New Zealand foreign policy has had for decades maintained.
Can we still be independent yet have our eyes I mean, giving back to that point of it raised earlier. Can't we be close to Washington without alienating Beijing.
I don't think we can carry on down the course that the current government's on without doing damage to the China relationship because we're seeing New Zealand sign up to more and more military agreements with the US. I think that that will come at a cost to US. I would say Tai Ho on all that we need both countries.
Both are important markets, right and the US with traditionally had more political values in common with although I must say that's pretty much in doubt at the moment when we see what's happening in the United States of America. So we need to keep our head. This is a very difficult time internationally, and New Zealand must maintain the total freedom to make its own calls.
I mean, there would be people who listened to this who were seeing how China conducted those exercises, yes, and open waters and not breaching any laws. But there are many people would say, well, that's China with an active intimidation and would respond to your letter in saying that it smacks of appeasement. What's what do you reckon?
Oh, I didn't think anyone would think that. I think you know, in the New Zealand community, there's a lot of people who have been to China, have done business with China, and who are concerned. If you've got a lot of exposure to China economically as a kiwi exporter or tourism provider. You have concerns right now, and I think our expression of concern for wanting a more balanced foreign policy to reassert itself will find quite an echo in New Zealand.
Are you worried about potential changes in China's attitude towards peace and aggression? I mean, with the world feels a little bit more tumultuous right now, doesn't it. We've got Ukraine, We've seen what's going on in the Middle East, China's always tilting towards Taiwan. Are you concerned about a change in attitude from China.
I think we need to continue to engage China, which can play an important role in also helping resolve some of the world's conflicts. Look for example, at the moment with the all the issues around Iran. Now China does keep a strategic relationship with Iran, so you know you need China as a player. China actually has played a role in recent times in a rapproshmon of some kind
between Saudi Arabia and Iran. So it can be a player and it needs to be brought into these conversations to try in the search for pieces it.
Were, Do you think that that's going to be part of what Luxein's aiming for and has chats with the Chinese.
Well, if I sort of put myself in Luclean's position and think of what would be on my radar going into that meeting, I would be very interested to know what the Chinese are thinking about how to pull the Middle East back from the brink of outright war. Their views would be very important. You know, what cards can they play? What are they saying to the Saudis, What are they saying to the Iranians? What are they saying to the US? Because China is a major power, it
does have voice, it does have influence. Now better that it's used for good.
Actually, just when you went over trips, did you ever would you have ever accepted advice from former prime ministers on how to approach the relationship with the country.
Or what I would have been very interested. I would have been very interested in their advice. I mean, take, for example, Jim Bolger, who had a solid seven years in the job and had visited China, you know, kind of rathered up the same frequency as I did. Jenny Shipley also had a good relationship with China. I've kept in touch with John Key over the years. He's done his best to position New Zealand will with China. And I'm sure Chris lux And listens to John, so I
think you know we can be useful. We do, you know, have perspectives. We have done the hard yards, and certainly I do note that Chris Luxon didn't just dismiss our comments out of hand, because he does know that some of us have been around done the hard yards.
And I guess the conversations you're talking about with Iran in the middle eas are those opportunities where you're not actually focused on New Zealand or China when you discuss between leaders, how can we solve this other problem? Are those are those particularly strong opportunities to build relationships.
Very strong opportunities to get a readout from major player as to what they think is happening and to offer a New Zealand perspective. It's the same with all the major bilaterals. You have the Prime ministers going on to meet a lot of Western leaders at the NATO summit. Again, that's a major opportunity to touch base with many many leaders and put a New Zealand's stake in the ground, as it were, as to what our hopes are not.
Wanting to end on too trivilla note, But did you tune in and check out the Trumpe's parade.
I haven't had a chance yet. I've been looking at some of the social media would I've been writing say it was a bit of a damp squib. I saw a little bit of footage where there seem to be a lot of empty seats along the way. Of course, these huge crowds with the no King parades and a lot of cities across the state. Look, look, this is a sadly very divided country and no one wants to see the US like this. I'm devastated by the the killings of the Democrat legislators just just horrible. The US
needs to pull itself back from the brink. This is not the way to go.
Thanks Helen, I really appreciate your time this afternoon. Thanks very much. Yeah byye.
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