The African Tech Space; Funding, Scaling ang Going Concern Issues

All right, welcome everyone. This is an X Space with Kalu. We're here every weekend and of course we're talking money, finance, and of course the economy, but on a personal level, we'll try to make it personal to you how the topics of the day affect your personal wallet. Today we're going to talk about the African tech space. Right, I've got a great guest with us today, Zumbaka. I'm gonna let him introduce himself, but the song I do follow and I get my tech news from what's happening in

Africa, what's happening in the Nigerian and tech space. They're funding the issues, what the folks are doing there. I like that space because it's a new space, and it's a space where entrepreneurs, young entrepreneurs are actually make a lot of wealth for themselves, are building institutions imen on that space. So I will just get him to coming, even if we're just gonna talk around the stories that he writes, just give us an insight in there and

then we'll take it from there. Again, apologies for the thirty minute delay, but I'm glad you guys are all in me here and I do uperate you so Abaka got the flow. If you can come up with it and just yourself, I'll show her about like you know your gods. Yeah, thank you so much for the space. Thank you so much for having me as a guest. Hi, everybody, my name is Abubaka Letters and I make that natural reporter. I covered the African market and right now covered the

US market. I have been reporting on the tech industry since tun eating by General next year the entry my sevent year I covered the industry, which is just like a long time and I've done everything from writing about new products that just got off the they just got into go into production, all the way down to the big tech companies and even the big telecom companies as they also make their own expansion into different aspects of technology services, whether it's financial services

or with digital solutions broadly. Uh and yeah, I've had the pleasure of interviewing and talking to founders at the point where they were say, I get a leastages off onto when they've become a bhumans themselves. And I'm talking about companies like will pay and like float Away so much sets like they start too about their businesses and what challenges they faced, how they've grown it and how they're able to maintain value for the customers here on the African continent. And

so yeah, that's a little bit about me. Great great, great, yeah again thanks for doing this as well. Let me just jump right into it, right always I always hear that Nigeria is the number one in terms of attracting Is it FBI or investment funds in the tech space in Africa? Is that still the issue? Is my dressed number one? If we're not always taking are from us? Yeah, so the jurist the number one. Nigres the number one market for finner investment when it comes to fully portfolio investment

when it comes to the tech industry on the continent. And the reasons for that is it's obvious. I mean, when you look at the population statistics, you notice that n is not just the most popular country on the continent, it also has one of the youngest populations and that at presents a ship of opportunities for any business, any company, any investment firm that wants to

do business on the African continent. So they are really excited about what the niger market can produce for them in terms of returnal investment and in terms of impact. And then also you notice there's a lot of opportunities in terms of the challenges in the country. And so you know, you look at two hundred million people who are struggling to make payments, two hundred million people who are struggling to you know, ship an item from legal stabuta, twentundred million

people who are struggling to find a decent way to save money. And they say at the same time, two undred million people who are looking for right access to educational materia that can move them not just in time in terms of learning new things, but also improve the ability to change jobs and to acquire new skills that helps them to earn more money across industries. And so all of these things are things that are interesting for investors, interesting to founders.

They all pay attention to the strengths and they want to invest here in Nigeria. But at the same time, there's a couple of other countries that are fast growing having the same level of opportunities that Nigeria has. And so you look at Kenya, you look at Egypt in particular, and then you look at South Africa. Disprey oder countries are also doing really well. They're attracting

hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of foreign investments and tech investments. Brought it because you know, the investment capital is comment from not just foreign investors but also local capital in these countries. And so yeah, pretty much Nigeria

is still the most desirable place for people to want to do business. But it's also you know, the level of funding is always is always changing in the last couple of months, in particular because of the high level blow ups and the macroeconomic challenges in Nigeria. Also in this sort of places super particularly Nigeria, because it has hit us significantly and there is no just nobody's you know, nobody knows how bad it's going to get over the next couple of

months. At this point, gotcha, I want to hear you saying the population of demographics, why the white in sprit that to say, hey, the growth in Nigeria is strong, but it's not really been because of the government, but because the you know, the attributes of Nigeria. I mean, my question is this has the governmental enough to drive this growth or has this group been organic because it simply had to happen, right, I think

that's a that's a really interesting question. I would start off by saying, one of the things that investors, potical foreign investors pay attention to what they want to invest in any market approach is the political stability in those free chouncing that market in that country, and so they are very very careful to make sure that the market you're invested in is not volatile, and so they're able to have decent confidence in terms of, you know, the safety of their

investment and your portfolio in those countries that are invest in. And so when you take it from that standpoint and you look at what that's happened in the Nigeria democratic space in the last decade, it's been interesting to an extent. You know, when you look at the early twenty tens, to an extent, the government did doing lots to a share in the current due to age

that we're seeing. So you see the likes of Unpala Johnson, who was Minister of these economy ict including telecom services, and she did a lot of work to improve the level of broadband in the country way back in twenty ten, twenty eleven, twenty four until she left to twenty fifteen, and so that kind of set the trend for what we seem to be in terms of the boost to the industry. But you know that is not the only thing that you know, startups paying attention to. It is a good trend.

Increasing access to telephony and broadband is you know, the starting point for any innovation in the market, like like like tech. But on the other hand, you know, people have been doing other things outside of what the government has been able to do for them. They were finding new ways to play in the market, like see financial services logistics, despite what the government has put in front of them as various challenges. You know, for example,

you look at what happened to the buiki and companies in legals. It was in regulatory disaster from legos that shut down that industry. And then you have you know, several businesses that are also very careful about how they innovate and how they interacted the government at their regulators in that space. And so overall, I would say the government did set the tone for innovation that would happen a decade ago, but eventually it became a kind of a dynamic process in

the sense that in some industries there was some regulatory of government support. In other industries in able had to figure things out by themselves, and they've been able to you know, show the value that's possible despite you know, without government assistance and holistically and so yeah, that's what I would say in terms of government support for the industries or for tech. Okay, great, And there is a question I always wanted someone to answer for me. Right when

we hear that Nigeria is getting or someone that has scaled. We hear a fintechnerger has scaled and they got about so million as startup capital and all that could just explain to me and listeners where does that money stay? A company scale, the company gets money, where is that cash? I get it, But I wanted you to understand because we always hear we are scaling, but we're looking for dollars. So is the money in zenisbank or an SBL bank? Work us through it? Okay? So some of the things bloaded

that question. On the one hand, when you when you talk about where the company is, where you know where the money is depositive. You know, typically people would say where the money is domicild. You have a bunch of things that would you know come to your mind. On the one hand, he begins to wonder at this. You know, when when you want to think about where to deposit money as an entity, as a company, the first thing you have to think to yourself is, you know, where

is your corporate origin? What are you incorporated in that particular jurisdiction that you want to deposit money in? And then second is is that case you want

to deposit money in a significant operating market for you. So the reason why I have to distinguish this is, you know, when it's not it's no secret like many startups that operate in Nigeria to be that we identify as African startups in quote, they're not food incorporated abroad in popular you know, taxi and favorable jurisdictions like the state of Delaware in the US and other places in the world like Mauritius for example, even the UK. And so they set

up subsidiaries to operate here in Nigeria. And so when they think about where you when you ask them the question of where is the investment fund the investment you know, found that they've reached where they don't sell it. The first thing that they would figure out is do they want to put all of that money in Nigeria or do they want to split it into the operating markets where they operate, and so you know that that's the that's the starting point.

Yes, But for many companies that operate in Nigeria and have their amory market in Nigeria, the bulk of that money is going to float, you know, from their corporate holdings offshore and they might move the signa contraun of it down to the Nigeria market, or they might even move the entire thing to Nigeria if it's comfortable for them. And so that is where the money would stay. And then they would use the money in the bank to scale their

business. And what they typically need, what they say skill their business is they would invest in people, you know, iron new team members, hire talent, structure the operations or their business, hire people on the ground, and then they give to spend money on marketing, whether it's hire influencers or you know doing build board as all those things. And they would spend money

on growth typically too. And also they spend money a lot on product development, like you know, building out the new apps that you know people would eventually use, or their Android phones or their iPhones and the feedback that people get or people will make when they use this apps and realize that, oh this isn't working well. Listen is working well. They have to take all of those you know inpe skin and make sure that the app is working in

real time. And so all of that takes money. All of that takes planning. And so this is where they eventually or typically would spend the money

that they've gotten from investors. And the idea is you are able to build a product optual level where it is stable, people can use it, and you begin to spend you know, a part of your operational funds on mentioning that product, whether it is own service, or pay developers to maintain those servers, or pay developers to our people generally to maintain good customer supports and

other kind of resistance to the business as all. Okay, Yeah, so the followup that's big, okay, and I'm trying to be cold here, but that's just how to add it. So why do we celebrate it so much if when we say in Nigerian or African startup has raised funds, Because a casual reader would assume that if those funds were raised and it's in the Nigerian or Kenyan paper, it means that the Kenyan or the Nigerian economy is getting that fund. But the way I understand it is that that's not so.

It's really funds that are still going to stay in the US. And then of course, if we want to buy a computer, we set it over and all that. So then why do we celebrate it so much against it's on c levels. The first is simply the fact that it's generally had to raise money. As an entrepreneur, it's really hard to convince somebody that you have an idea or you have a product, or you have something and you want to service the market and you want money to be able to do

so effectively. And so when you take it from that standpoint, it's it's something to you know, celebrate generally that somebody is able to raise one hundred thousand dollars, ten million dollars, one hundred million dollars, two hundred million dollars to scale up a business in any sense, in any climate. That is the thing you you know, people are really really excited about. It tells you, first the level of optimism that investors have in the person who

is running that business. It tells you the optimism that the investors and the people who involved in making edified and decisions have about the industry and the company and the business that you know, these guys are trying to be the solution

for. And so that's just generally all you know, good indicators broadly, and so you know, that is generally something that would be exciting exciting to anybody because you know, it really has to raised money and if you're able to raise money from investors in something you would want to be personally proud of,

people would also want to congratulate you for pulling off. And then if the economy is in you know, the craziest part, as it's been in the last two years in particular, you know, it's all the more reason why people want to applaud you because, yeah, you were able to raise you know a lot of money or you know, some money despite the fact that the global economic environment is not favorable to risk and solutions, which is what startups are, and also the fact that it's you know, challenging.

And but then there's other aspects of of you know, the reason why people celebrate when founders raise money, it's you're right to an accent in the sense that you know, the funds that they might raise might be based or don't start abroad, because that's where many of these companies are incorporated. But in reality, the bringing that money to a local market and they're looking to deploy that those fonts in that market, whatever amount of money that they do deploy

constitute DP activity. And so when you think about GDP activity as a whole, you're looking at economic activities working. You're not looking at money that's in the bank. You're not looking at money that's it's simply in an insurance's what's called pattern in any of this industries that simply hold money, you're looking at you you're basically it's basically activity, economic activity that's happening with the money going

around and generating value for the economy. So on a broader scale, I would say when you when you consider the fact that a company that has realised thirteen million, for example, might want to deploy ten million or fifteen million over the next two years on hiring people locally in a country, on spending money on developers locally, on market and locally all of that constituency the activity for a country, for an economy, for a satle so it's always positive

in that regards. Okay, I mean I'll take that clearly that that is perhaps you have completely correct. I will take that as a win. Like I said, I just wanted to for the benef of the audience listening. This is not like money's going to come in today and change the amount the exchanges of the dollar on the streets of legos. That's actually where I was going to. Okay, I got a limited and totally asked the question. I have a full up already full up with you, and then maybe let

me get a little hop in here for asking olimitate. You've got the floor if you want to quickly ask the question or you have to go ahead. I think that's a conversation. And you know, it's greatly the fact that the best piece is very actively you have first the bigiates market in Africa. There are three questions about But first of all, I think it's very interesting in terms of valuation and why we have many issues in the past. You know, it's open open there for us to look at the good ones,

the ones like Piggy Pada into Switch. We've seen the fact that if you can have real it on great work and the industry and factor as author to look at what inter switch how they need to bringing pot from thisa we so hard strike the start for Tom and mothers, but at that there's still have problems without les answer pack. So first the first place, why is it? Why is it that we focus more on valuations rather than the substability of people. But this is what I mean. If you look at the fact

that you know, businesses and not so suspendable. I don't want to tell me, but you can some valuations you stay to under yeah, actually remember because because of what I don't want to come in. But you find out that biggers entity, the kind of fathers, the understanding about the subjects and the way they two copcomers, the cash flow and the way you're reporting is you know, you're our order the verbility of the business in our versity this

plan also it's also another quers. I also want to ask us that why is it that we don't really look at the successful ones amplify them. We sell great drugs valuations and rather most of them become up big or bad examples for futuristic they are. Lastly, you know many of these products like being

in different names. I don't think I've liked more than since I've been writing in the national space, have made more than Dinnergate companies that out there that I was spoken to many of them, and I azed that what you what you, what we hear is not what we we know what we move. So the thing is there's this knowledge cap and there's the fact that they just want to cash out. We've seen many appieces of fons and things like that.

Now customers have lost money. You know, look at this piece I am for example, I have so many games of people putting the add inflans in pre take films and these guys are still on Twitter, not arrested, and this guy is still They still act like nothing is happening. So the question is, you know, these are things that you cannot see the party industry, no matter how complicated that your stem is. Why is it is it that the media has been put is it that averybody has been applied?

Is it that the the well what is really happening? Because we need a sheriff to sometimes. So these are questions I'd like you to talk and prefer and thank you. Interesting but back, I mean interesting question. Yeah, you want to thank you so much for this question I joined them down, then I would take them after the other aleskand has something to say before I

start, No, go for it. I mean in my question was to you, what's going to be about the I think you should answer this question first, because I've got a lot of dollar dollar I think I think the same question sort of I was going to ask when you answer this question,

I was going to go specifically to Dash. I was going to use Dash as a plast talk about That's why we had the scaling on on our on our topic header there right is the issue that you have very smart people that understand how to code but can't balance the balance sheet or is it just that man you know? See a while to go, So we'll be answering this ons of my question. Do tech code to tech brus need to know how to balance a balance sheet apart learn how to call? But you know,

you know what I'm uh calor my work asks the turkey. Well, I don't work as the turkey. I work as a business anallyst now, but I work with turkeys along you know, deaths or whatnot. When it comes to fund then you've got to be able to convince somebody to part with your money, and if you are posting with their money, the world results for it, you know, h be it in Nigeria, bit in Canada, being and in America wherever it is. If people are giving you their money,

the world results for that point points me. Let me, let me get back out to holp In and take only this long question and then perhaps you can tail into this idea of the capacity to scaling the going concern issues we have about these very smart people. Go ahead and about thank you. The The aswered question is, yeah, it's an interesting one, but let me start with eliminate questions. So I have three questions that I've jotted down, so I'll take the first one first. So you talked about valuation.

Why is there a lot of focus on valuation and non sustainability. I think that is a very interesting question, and we as journalists to have tried to answer this question, and we always ask the questions too many many times. For example, when I jump on the cover the founder, when I jump on the cover and investor and I'm asking them about the companies that you're you know at a company that they founded or the business that they invested in,

respectfully, I always try to get of what's the valuation? Like, what is the metric you used to judge the success of this business? Is this business actually growing? Is it working as you know it says it should it would? How is the business a model? Like? How do they make money? These are bad bonds questions that I would ask anybody you know that I'm writing a patron. I'm talking to UH, and sometimes I get very good answers. Many times I do not, which is fine. I do

my work anyways. But yeah, evaluation, valuation is valuation is one metric to judge the sustainability of a business or the success of the business. What he tells you is how much that company is worth to D and what people who have invested in that company feel like that company is worth to them, Especially when the company is not public, which is the case of many of the startups that I the space to date. They're not public and so their

evaluation is entirely subjective. Whether they're worth a billion dollars, two billion dollars, one hundred billion, or treellion dollars, we can't say for sure until they go public. We all that we know is everybody who invested in this company or wants to buy shares or currenty has shares in this company values it at the amounts that is for their own balance sheets for them, and so a lot of things could happen. The business could revise its valuation to it

downround which is which is what it's called. Or they could also you know, raise for law and funding and increase evaluation. Again, when a company raises money, it doesn't necessarily mean that evaluation will go up. It also doesn't also mean that it must go down. I evaluation goes with CEVA direction if it wants to go based on what has been discussed with the financials, and so that's a different conversation. When it comes to sustainability of the business,

that is a very different conversation. The valuation doesn't tell you realistically that a business is going to be sustainable. It only tells you that in today's world, in today's based off the current conversation about what the companies were, this is how much it is in terms of valuation. It doesn't tell you whether or not that business is going to be successful, but it gives you

a hint. If you value a company that started two years ago a one hundred billion dollars from nowhere, or from ten million dollars to a hundred billion dollars. That tells you how excited the people in the room are. When they give a company that kind of valuation, that tells you maybe something huge is coming or something else is coming. But again, ausstic on valuation.

If it's valuation itself is driven by several things, it could be that they are marking of the company based on comparables, like, for example, if you were to value as any bank. For example, if you're assume it's any bank is private, and you want to value it's any bank in today's world, you look at how much it any banks and it's you know, how much deposited? Told in what this income is like? What is balanceship looks like? Realistically? What the cashal feels like? And then you too,

you do a comparison. You compare with the G bank, you compare with our new copak, and you figure out, hokey, if this company is compared to just what I want, how does it look like your share prices make sense? You know, that's like a simple you know, you know a you know the thing is if I I own a company, If I own a company and I value It depends on if I come to the year as a final sayer or as somebody there who is an accountant of something.

A lot of it depends on how I pitch it to you, to say, you know what my company is going to be worth this, this, this, and this never that doesn't tell really that that is that is you know? That is fine? Whichever which if anybody who is smart enough to access the page base of something like that and give it whatever valuation is, and if it works for them, it works for them. But you know, the real world, what you do is you would obviously start with

looking at the financials, and that is how you do it. Especially when a company is at Series A, it's at a level that is fairly decent enough for you to put a dollar valuation or what the company does. You would typically look at the financials and projects. That is how you do it. But all that by decide back to the journalism aspect of it. I would say that you know, we do we do our fair page to make

sure that we're not only fixated on the valuation aspect of a business. We want to know how sustainable it is, and which is why you're seeing a bunch of stories that people who assume or think it's negative in the media because you know, for example, there's been a layer of the company, or the co founders exited the company, or a company has you know, it has it's seeing a huge spike in the number of customers who are fleeing, or we join theirvance go elsewhere. All of these, uh, you know,

issues that businesses would face at some points. Maybe many of them would not face it, some of them might face it, but generally these are issues that we track as journalists and we use that to figure out how sustainable the business is as a going concern. But that's for the first question. You know, we don't always focus on we shadn't we try to get as

more detail as possible about the certainbility of a business. And you know, you're you're thinking, is that business people, that's the point of being able to prene Here, I am telling you this from a point of you know, all right, so let me get back her to express themselves and then I'm going to call you in to speak just so putting move into the second question, which is why don't we profile the successful companies that do not always

have the fancy valuations that you know, you see with other companies, and I agree too. You know, we are constantly looking for the valuable companies that are not always in the spotlight, and we try our best to write about this company. And now speaking from the journalism side of things, and we do this fairly well. You would see. You notice, like way before we became a two billion dollar company, I personally wrote about them quite

a few times. And I wrote about them not because they were raising money, but because of how the business model worked. Same thing, Go Kada Go Kada was never a billion dollar business. But when you think about them, when you hear the business or when you hear how much coverage they got way back in twenty nineteen, it feels as though they were, you know,

multiples of millions of dollars in evaluation. But really why they got so much coverage was because we could see on the street that this company is there, it's doing this, it's helping people move around. It's something that we need to understand. And we did a lot of coverage back then until the

business had its own issues because of the government on the one hand. And so yeah, we're constantly looking for, you know, similar businesses like that that are thriving but are not always in the line light and give them the spotlight that they deserves. And it's not always going to be driven by conversations about valuations. So you know, that is how we tipically do things.

And with the level of actress, we are able to get with some of those companies in terms of whether or not their CEOs want to talk to us, the other management team want to talk to us. That way, we're able to write a more compelling article about any of those businesses. For the third question, which is about having a you know, sheriff in time that looks into those companies and make sure that you know, we're able to understand the issues that customer has a faction on the one hand, and whether or

not some of those businesses are fortunate. I would say this, we do not know for sure. As journalists like again this climber here is I am Johness. I'm speaking from the perspective of somebody who actively converses in lorship. I will start up by saying that we do not know fully whether or not a business is fraudulent. I cannot say it's that this company's a fraud until I do the work I cannot say it's a fraud based on two or three

customers coming to tell me that it's a fraud. I would have to do my investigation. Investigation takes time. Investigation requires a lot of resources. Investigation requires a lot of access. It requires talking to people, requires talking to customers, It requires getting Insit then, to some an extent, the companies are anxious too to figure out is this money that they claim to be in the customer deposit is it actually there? Like how much of the customer deposity

that they claim to hold is actually still in the balance sheet? To be all of that is you know, it's a process, it's delicate, it's difficult, and it's a particularly challenging in an environment like Nigeria where people do not talk. People only talk when things hit the fan. People only talk

when it's dropped down in the neck. Uh. And so you know, you can get a sense about when the company is not doing the right thing by hear what the customers are saying, But you don't immediately, as somebody who covers this industry, you immediately begin to throw around the world fraud until you have proof. And when I say proof, I mean I don't mean I simply one or two people coming to tell you that, oh, I

heard that our company is a problem company. I mean like real proof that to an extent, you can stack up in the courts if you are sued. If you do not have stuff like that, then if you try around the world for you could get a serial struggle. And so that is typically how do you think you did investigation? Then you can begin to you know,

try out the right term terms to describe a company. But generally, if we do pay attention to many of the issues that this companies are facing, can we say we don't like this, Like if we see a CEO, like going to the Dash issue, I saw a reporting on that it was ading six hundred thousand dollars a year. Six hundred thousand dollars a year. I don't think the m D of Chase Bank, the largest bank in the world, and six hundred thousand a year, I doubt it, but

I don't think. I don't think he ends six. When you see a start up any six hundred thousand a year, that's a red flag for any stock investment analysts will tell you a red flag. I mean terification first, And you know I wasn't one who wrote the initial reports on on on Thath. It was reported by Harry is a quid who was sa we tracker and is a fantastic guy. Beautiful article on your hand. Also to clarify two, I know for a fact that the see of JP Morgan ends way more

than six thousand dollars a year, interns a full compensation. Put him up a young I mean stop, I mean there's a point at the point is that on salary, man, he doesn't end six and a grand. He ends on stock belief he makes a profit this and you make my point. He gets a stock op show he gets if he's bonus plan, if he hits this, he gets that. But his salary six or third case,

how much a month? Look after the man fifty a month. The whole eyes salaries and that is what ties into you know, do you back and question you're going to ask me, which is about comfort governments? You know, it is a red flag in the context of what the business does. You know, get certain cases where definitely a CEO can be so consequential to a business that the board would decide to pay him however much they want to pay him, or to retain their talents as a CEO of a company.

That is something that the board and the CEO and the management chain of the company would have to decide. Uh. And so it's it's fine, it's own in the context of the company. It depends on what those guys are discussion and whatever value the thing the CEO has in the space or in the context of DASH, I would say based on reporting what was done, based on reporting from a year ago or two years ago, it is mind blowing that a company like that could be paying to CEO that level of salary.

And so that is why it's so so violent because when you look at it, it's not where else. Uh you know what what is when you're making a decision, that is the r is playing job on earth decision making and you you stick by your decision. That's why they are again I paid that money for me personally, or are saying they should be repaid that money because

they're making decisions over Maybe maybe it's not the moner about money. About to give some background, how old those staff maybe love following, how old those stuff? How old? So just yeah, I think that's was like max four years old, so four year old company. It's a year startup,

startup. It's trying to It was trying to like provide a consumer fit like it was trying to basically operate a mobile money wants in starting with Ghana, to help people make transactions and make payments and buy the charge cards, do

all the basic stuff that what pays doing in Nigeria. At the same time, play around with with with international payments in the sense that all of that muber money accounts that exist in Ghana, it will try to connect it with nober money or other bad accounts in Nigeria, similarly in Kenya, in such a way that if you're in any one of those countries, you can transform money across this country with the DASH network. With the Dash at theoretically that

much that was what the business model, but not clearly. Yeah, I'm thinking about customers firm. I don't even have much with that because then we butt o bread for that kind of act would just be maybe it was that is that would be discussual devices if I complete, but customers phones, we have cooms, we have people that those friends and what we've want to see the start upstarts after people stands for about a year. I can't see you

I can come like you put it at difficult. It's more than doing the just blame start up saying that okay, we can give you a cash we're going to turn into equity. But I asked him to the man to what are you asking from him? And asked a little, not a bit, that those things are just like customers, b ADP and we'll make it about it. And those they're asking there are you asking him because he's just a tech reporter? I mean, are you are you asking to explain what's happened

or why don't they write about it? And trying to get to what you want from him? No, I'm just trying to get it. But because yes, it's about he has put that perspective to them. So maybe they had things that we don't know because for me, I don't write about markets or what is the back dad? You know, and things like that. So I'm trying to see whether I'm trying to work mind. Maybe there are things that we will know that these things are happening and jail capture, because

if he happens, bads, we know what happened. We do CEOs as protlematic as if he happened. If you're cretad industry. You know what happened to them, but that didn't happen becoming so much. No, people ben't going to key the key word there is regulated industry. When you're in a regulated space, you know what's expected, view, you know how to handle yourself, you know how you know where the restaurants are. But if you're not in the regulated space, the rules that need to be nuanced, it's

not even just nuance, the rules don't exist. And then you begin you as a customer yourself, you understand to understand what is expected. Also unless that you might not know what you understand their bones, you are not as safe compared to somebody whose money is in the bank. If you're in crypto, that is typically the rule of the game. You are exposed on the

bad basic level. You're exposed to volatility, you're exposed to to thra if you're exposed to so many things, you're also exposed to the fact that the platform where your where your crypto is is dominostat where your what it is right

now might not be as safe as you think it is. And we've seen high profile laws that are not even like you know, we're talking about Patricia, when you when you can't relate time of depositsha was probably olden at the time it fell apart, It's probably not more than one hundred yion dollars. But when looking that, which is one of the biggest crypto space time, yeah you know what I mean, yeah, real time, and it was holding tens of billions of dolls of crypto talking or do I see the posit

for customers and that is still something that is bacially to everybody. Hold on, hold on, I want to get some something. Let me just let me get more than Olimia's question is going to be there forever, so I see, I'm want to bring you up. Let me get my don not to speak. That's about his being more than David has quite been hopping in and out. Let me get him to speak, and then will cecle back more than there? You go ahead, Thank you very much, sir.

Yes, please go ahead. When you have to meet your minds, Yeah, I think you hated am I am now? Yes? Are okay? The tomstile. My question is on dois diction? I want to talk about Patricia, but I'm happy that the topic is not part of the discussion. Patricia relocated to Estonia before they came out and told us on Twitter that God from people's assets to a to a different assets without anybody's same permission. And

from the look of things, the matter has died down. So my potion to mister Hamback, who was my first potion, is I'm please lighting not on them jurisdictions and legalities consigning the center companies from crypto to micro finance banks. Then my second pusson is on my media. I hear that they have this their motion in con Valley inside the bush because I don't know the little

anxiety bush, but they're doing something gain. So please I want your personal opinion about that case ideal for him, because I watched some mussuse since they are bad, they will said that their talk can o break on black the same Africa are of first days that they have a reach, they have your phone, they have this, they have that people who come there an invest

So please start. My second question is Namibia. If it does Norman Africa catch you in something based on your started journalism, my name looking for them to this diction stack and focus on legal for the record. On on Damibia, I'm not aware of of of that. I don't know much about that trend. So I can speak to on the For the first question, which is on which is Patricia, I would say I want to lay out the facts. The first fact here is Patricia did not recently relocate to Astomia.

Patricia relocated like it moved through It moved its operations abroad in I think in twenty twenty one, when the Center Bank of Nigeria first you know, announced that banks should no longer work with cyptocurrency companies. That was when that happened. That was when many of the startups in the crypto space decided to shift domicile or their their out they're operated as a company into you know, into they were structured into offshore entities. They no longer were based in Nigeria as

corporate entities. And the case of Patricia, it moved to Estonia and then to Lithuania, which is the last place it was. It's listed, I mean, which is one of the countries is listed on this website, so

it's it's there. Information is all as already in public for the last two years, and so it's not a recent strne It's not they did not just move to They're not just abroad simply because or before this issue, they've moved there way before now, and so when it comes to jurisations, there's the points to also keep in mind is it's a different conversation because one am not a lawyer. And second I would say that, you know, the most

apparent thing is where does this company operate? Where your customers is and so that itself opens you up as a com to those types of questions, to those type of conversations, to those type of risk. You know, the company might say because they are not based in Nigeria, for example, they do not they're not yable to Nigerian laws. And to some extents when you read on Patricia's on terms of service, they do use some of those language

in their in their terms of service, which happened way before now. I should add it was not before. It was not right before they blew up, It was not right after they collapsed, It was not when they ran into trouble. It has always been there in terms of service. But the point still remains that they are holding funds only have Nigerian customers for people who are based in Nigeria, so they have some exposure to the Nigerant market.

And they do have to you know, pay attention to Nigerian laws and you know, take action in that regards. But again I'm not a lawyer, so I cannot say for a fact that this is how distinction we don't put from generatually presidents. I would expect that based on where they operate, based on where they have customers, they do have to treat their customers fair and not just simply up and disappear with customers access. And they're going to back

up just for context, who is Patricia, what does should do? What happened? Just for context for folks that are listening, so pro first, who who do not know? Patricia is a cryptocurrency platform. It was started

I think way back. I think maybe the earliest time I heard about them was in twenty nineteen, but I'm sure they plan before that, and so they they became way popular in twenty twenty when they sponsored the Big Brand niger and popular reality TV show and they've remained famous ever since and they have held millions of dollars on behalf of Nigeria cryptocurrency users until the company first had an issue with the Cyber Act last year, and then they officially confirmed the cyber

attack earlier this year, and since our report went out, the company has been struggling to repay customers who were trying to pull out their funds in the frenzy. And so the companies are struggling to fully repay the holders. And so right now it's been it's currently in a state or should I say it has grown apart as a company's still trying to repay customers and it's asking for patients and different schemes to get customers to count down. Probably said they were

hacked, more or less that's what happened, that we hacked. Yeah, according to Reference, they were hacked, and they did confound that they were hacked, and they lost a significant chunk of customer deposits. And so they've been struggling to repay that ever since. Okay, so more than I think it's already, I think he has summer more than I think as quacker the question right, more than my mother confess. I don't believe that it was

personal opinion. I know, I know when I'm saying that he doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to you don't have to k But he answered the question when she was asking a back wouldn't know, but he work at the journalist. No, no, no, no, he wouldn't know. He can report, but he wouldn't know. I don't wanted to put I don't have to pull the back out to some standard. He's a journalist, right, understand that. I just sure that maybe he can enlighten us better

because he wouldn't a bit confused. What am I saying? That was f GS for an example, FGS kept the money in Bahama's brige. His finance was what he was on America, and he had the money with Americans in his possession and to be at least do some next thing. He's going to face some level of justice and people are going to be big back mending investment. But for the Patricia don't even know how to leave the comfort one. We don't even know how to get our money back. What license did Partisier

have? Who can? Who can tell me more than what life cent did Patriier have? I guess. I would also add that c x X was a fraud. It was confounded as a fraud and investigation has been carried out by legal authorities to determine the extent of the fraud. Where was it? What was it the first because I cannot I cannot call a patrition for because

I am not a leg I'm not the the government enforcer. I have not carried out any such investigation to determine that it is afore still, as far as our concern, we're still looking into the company as journalists to figure out how the okay, but what life section has that to the best of my knowledge, he did not have. But did she have any license at all? Does she have any more than hold on? More than hold on? Does she have any license from any judicial at all? Anyone, not not

registration license, not sex but any license from the body at all. To the rest of my knowledge, I am not sure had the license because, on the one hand, cryptocalcy companies typically do not need a license in many places, or those acquire a license. And that's the problem. And that's the problem because people listen, that's the problem. You know, you just said she had one hundred million dollars in deposits. I mean, I said, to the best of my knowledge, not blaming you about that. No,

not blame you. I'm not saying that not yeah, no, I'm just saying that if an institution can can have even if it's ten million dollars in deposits without a license. You have to talk about the pot are given. That is your money, ten millions, hold millions without a license. I don't know, man, it is it is like it's it's a big issue. Okay. You know people have talked about this for a long time. We don't know how to you know, handle cryptocurrency companies, and it's

been an issue everywhere. It's not it's not now and you know many companies have failed over time because of this same issue, so it's not unique to them. It is, however, unique is the fact that you know, we're still not seeing the way it's been handled. It's not being the best, it's not been impressive, and it might get worse. So customers are still trying to figure it out, so to the best of my knowledge, and that's a situation that can see. Let me get to push it in

here. So thanks for holding on all these v patients go ahead, So I appreciate your time as well. Can't to everybody as well listening, and thank you as well for the time that back. Thank you for taking the heat for man to bring it up. I can actually talk about how it could be able, but we've already got to this level. We've we've touched

on a lot of things. I might I can understand that for your for you, from your point of view, you can't explicitly call out Patricia a flat bustard who didn't customer funds and whether or not they're mismanaging it, like you said, after proving the cutup no rights. But technically speaking, that's

what all of these companies are doing, right. And I think Carlo or someone did point out that the issue really is a knowledge tap for most people who are less text savvy to really understand what's going on under the hood.

They might just buy into the gorilla marketing that these guys just push out there and everything they don't they all they need to see is that's x ray the person has given you approval or accreditation, that you are trusted a company, and then Nigerians just trying to leave the Nigerian system opt into disorder criminal systems unknowingly right. So that's just my thing work for you for we've got a venture that have to speak. I just wanted to ask you Abo back and

write the streamline question. What would you say is this similarity between these questions that I mentioned right, because we've been calling fourhand demise before pandemic. A lot of people said that's crazy. How can see them be? Brother? You literally these cameras and they are saying the same thing for Flotter with right now and a lot about our companies that is literally born with the same templates. Would you disagree with that? Would you say that with Patricia that all

share the same templates or just holding customer phones and mismanaging it? Or would you say that? And I do you think this is probably riddling the tech space in Africa and Nigeria since the way I'm talking about Nigeria right, How would you talk? How would how would you? How would you? How

would you address this this issue? Here? The blood and I might as been action, But yeah, I guess the person that I'll say is nobody knew like nobody in the general public knew about the dash issue until he went until he was you know, written about by the journalists, and you know, it has become a popular you know, conversation point in this in this session on district space simply because of the fact that the Jenerali who wrote that,

so he did a lot of work to verified information before he went out and published it. It did not just simply, you know, write in suite and say thatsh is a fraud. Now that did he just write an article and see thatshes a fraud as they had like with no facts. And so he did the work and he got a card information and he put out that story. And now we know for a fact that that had issues and it ultimately led to its collapse that we know as a fact because of the

workman has been done. I would say the same spirit of faith or the same spirit of legitimately also applies to when you talk about black companies too, and talk about it in the context of whether or not our journalists have written or should write about those companies. They will write about those companies. We will write about those companies when we have a sufficient information about them to live out them in whatever form you're talking about. But again, we cannot seculy

try around whatever levels. We have to figure out the facts of the conversation before we talk about any company. And so far, whatever company is, you know, we're still looking into them as journalists, career journalists, investigative journalists, whichever one it is, to figure out how these companies are performing. I would also earn a side of caution to say simply because their startups doesn't mean that the company is this fraudulent. I would say that that is.

That is actually one of the biggest challenges we've seen our Many of these companies. They want to they want to scale, they want to crew, they want to up with their standard businesses, but they keep having the trust deficits simply because of there's many bad actors that exist, because of what has happened with Dash, because of what people are faced with with with Patricia, you begin to say our companies in the crypto space and the financial services space,

that our startups are fraudulent. Meanwhile, we've had companies like by coins which honorarily shut down its consumer focused aspect. By Coins has been around for a long long time. It was there before that, it was there before Patricia, and it phased out. It's crypto, it's consumer, it's speak of the aspect of its content with crypto app gradually until it stops. Nobody has come out to say by cons is in front, at least not to

my knowledge. You know, it's based on how this company handled itself. And I would say the same grace applies to so many other companies that are doing things the right way in terms of how they handle customer deposits, how they handle winding down when they eventually you know, about to collapse, they do it in such many of them tend to do things in the right way. So I would say, you know, they are a handful of bad actors in the space. They're a handful of case studies that I've done really

pooring after business and also with how they've handled customer deposit. But I would say overall, many many, many, many companies, pactically startups are trying their best to operate legally, to operate properly, and to ensure that they are not the next dash to ensure that they're not the next you know,

Patricia to run into troubles with how it makes its customer deposit hod. But yeah, it's it's a challenge, but you know, all these companies are doing their fair page to ensure that they are not the ones to lose customer money in any form. And of course, last journalists, I would say, if we do find that any of those companies have done so, we gon before the public people write about those companies to the best of our knowledge,

how we have a little information that we have about these entities. So o other than that, I would say, it's first to keep on doing the work or portion of these companies without actually trying to label them as something that they are not or what do you know, have the fact to see at them that they are. But that's why I did it the fo Yeah. The follow up is it seems to me that about worker is being born cautions and no, no, no, no, no, no not Actually

I would saying no, and I just want to please say that. Yeah, yeah, thank you, I appreciate it. Yeah, I would say from my viewpoint, uh, you did not address flutter Away or buying as

or any of these like you mentioned bride coins. I strongly disagree with that, but that might be a big contactic come So my follow up question would be for entities startups or not that choose to hold customer funds, right, oh yeah, yeah, right, looking out what we just explained, Now that's I'm sort of reacting to the question and the template right that was that that is their bigness marchal right, Should Nigerias be scared of float Away or

any other text startup that says, hey, just bring your money and then we'll give you X y Z tokens that should represent the value that you give us, and hopefully when you come back together, we should have those tokens or value what we gave us. I mean, there were other journalists and other hardcore patrician people that did and still do Deferend and his company Patricia and about it actually toward the co So that's what I'm reasoning, and I'm asking

this question. A lot of tech companies have this temp. Right, do you condemn the template where I bring your money, will hold your money for you, and we will explotely good price action because that's what a lot of people are looking for, right And then once you're ready to exit your position, first believe that we've got the liquidity to cover it, because it doesn't to be the case for most of the companies. So that's I guess my look for that. Could you address that and would use it for a fact

that flutter With is solvent? Well, I'll back out. He can't know that question. He doesn't know if that's the point. He can't know that. So let me let me start out by saying this. The first thing I would say is I'm scared about my reputation when it comes to talking about the companies. I give my reputation by covering this companies and doing so properly. And if I've ever done anything that was should I see low popular standard, it would have come up right now. And so I hand my reputation

carefully. And it's not because of protecting my reputation that I'm being careful. It's simply the way it should be done. You cannot throughout statements and make accusations or you know whatever, whatever it is just really just straight around without evidence. You have to be very careful to make sure that you have the facts. Whether you're a journalists and investor in the start to founder irregulator, you have to be careful. You have to be decently, you have to

be proper when you say these things. So that is how you should do it. You do it regardless of your reputation. You do it because that is the right thing to do. That by the side, I would stay up front that I don't know how Furtherish financials look like. I haven't seen their balance sheet. I can't tell you whether't not you a solvent or they are not but I know for a fact that the payments company, they do

not hold customer deposits. On how I've study their financials or should actually that business model, I do not know that they have a current platform or company or business model that holds. Again, the key word here is host deposit taking business. The only business that I know that they do have that is a deposit taking service is better the payments aure and to the best of my knowledge, better is on the development right now. But that doesn't hold your

money right now because it's still on the development. Send Up doesn't hold your money. Sent Up, which is the remittance product. It helps you send money from the US for money countries and it gets a positive into your nine grant bank account. It doesn't hold your money. Fluttering as a company as a payment service doesn't hold your money. You have your bank accounts, the merchant has your own back account. It only takes money to where about the

money should go. To reason on my knowledge again about how this business model works. It doesn't hold your own money. That is very important. And you keep on mentioning tech companies and mentioning trading and holding the posits, and I'm confused because there are significant chants of companies that do not even hold the posits to begin with. They're basically technology companies. You need to be able to distinguish which is which, What is it the project taking company, What

is the business model? What is a trading company? What is an investment platform? These are very very very different business models that you need to know which is which. If you're not even to distinguish which is which, then you also have trouble distinguishing which regulator should do what. But you cannot tray around the CBN. You cannot be talking about the CBN regulatory actions for a company that is into investments. You would look at an SEC for that example.

You cannot be traying around the company that is into investment and expect the CBN to take action. Again, these are very different business models. In the case of Patricia, that would mention on go over so many times on this company. Patricia is a cryptocurrency platform. It is a platform for cryptocurrency and to the rest of my lower Nigeria does not have a cryptocurrency license,

either CIPEN or the SEC. What the SEC has at best is a blockchain license and a blockchain framework, neither of which is designed to hold the posits, neither of which is designed to be Australian platform. And the other license that does exist is a crowd funding license, which is a different thing entirely. When you deal with crypto in Nigeria, you have to realize, as gonds strange from one, that you do not have regulatory cover for anything.

You only have best phase assumption that the currently consumer protection agencies might have interest in protecting Nigera customers when they use this platforms. But in terms of legal protection you have none, and the government has really cleared that you have none. The banks are very clear that they are on the street regulation to not

deal with cryptocurrency platforms. So everything you're seeing that you talk about with the cryptocurrency company, with a bank, with the payment company, all of that engagement, all of those activities you're seeing, they're very close to having regulatory problems for licensed businesses that are engage in crypto, and they are all very careful to make sure that they do not get into trouble. So when you try around tech companies, you mention them, I see the concepts and you

measure them. I say trading. You're conflating so many things tech companies do so many things. Very few of them are into trading, very few of them are into crypto. Very few of them own marketplaces for trading cryptocurrency. So you have to be specific which one is it and based on the Again, when you mentioned flood, that we are saying without protile you solving fluttered doesn't hold your money. Your bank sold your money. Plot only is an

intermediary form monemotional one bank to the other bank. Money moves from one debit card to another bank. Money gets to put that we're drawn from one debit card to another bank, another repot. Please moving that money, to the rest of my knowledge. Again, photon doesn't hold your money, So when you ask, we don't know. They are as solvent. If you have a platform that is floped that comes to be flo holding deposits, then I

think you need to go back to that plantorm check. That is a real thing because the gain it is a legend that fatally has it doesn't hold the posits. It doesn't advertise its that he owns the posit. And you're talking about a different things. So that's a good question, that's a good clarification to make a sociateholders it just to make sure that people understand that the act of holding deposits itself is a license. The act of creating credits a license.

A bank's license is to accept deposits. A deposit is different from if you give me money and I want to give it to a baker and you give me a center of car. That's not a deposit. So it's very very important that you need a license. I need to take those deposits into your own balance just what the license is in the bank. The deposits you make turn out to be the bank's assets, which it lends out and creates

risk assets. But what a baka is saying is that flutter away. When you give them a put a deposit, they're not taking to the balance sheet, but they're transfiring it according to your instructions. So they don't have that license to hold deposits. So if you're gonna give money to a quote unquote Patricia, you have to find out what license they hold, because ultimately, when you guys are gonna go to curt do you know what I'm gonna tell

you, we never told you we had this license. Most of it are gonna find that out very very I'm gonna tell you we never told you were a deposit. We're gonna say, oh, but you give me deposit slip you may They're gonna tell you we never told you, and that's where you're gonna be. That's why they make them put for fashions two shows. You have to put your license on the wall. You have to put what you do on the wall of the building. What services do you offer? Do

you create credit, do you accept deposits? You have to put it up there. They don't have a license, don't deal. A license does not canceled out fraud. But at least they protects you just a bit there. Land last they mean is exactly to pint on it to hammer because people that

are licenses defrauding people as well. Before I ask my question and thank you for that clarification, even though the reason that I longed them altogether is because at the end of the day, whether or not you are specifically a crypto company, there is still payments involved. This all at the end of the arpayment. This as you have to move funds from point eight to point pick. And then when you move funds this ones have to be moved on the

network. And then there's she's attached and a lot of that. Even though specifically do not uh classify as a crypto company, there's still funds that needs to be moved. Right to Modern's point about the Namibia thing, I did hear of it. I think there's an initiative that is pushed by the ES Central banks and now maybe those in African country. It is quite a stable

and they do things quite efficiently. So that's it. And they're also moving with their the I forget the currency, but they're also moving with the CBDC right, And that's all the whole tech thing to a books point. Right, So let me go later because there's a lot of hands. Let me

not be like I'm hammering down Patricia. Right. Let's just say we have a car inc. A tech company that is just helping to teach people x y z, right, and you're saying you don't hold customer pond This is just hypotheticals at this point, right, And you've got a customer base, say a thousand and a million people, and we are depositing an x y z amount and your claim is you don't hold customer funds. You only do

what we are users ask you to do. So My question is how do you move the funds that we give you, what systems do you use, what networks do you use? And how our defees are crude and all that, because this is I think the crowds of the issue not really being too technical. If you get my point of a worker, that's a different conversation. Yeah, Like if you're a crypto quality company and when you're when people into your app and they keep crypto in your own in your wallet on your

own app, it's a different thing entirely for what we're discussing. It's completely different. You can you know, have phons crypto assets to post that are a wallet on finance or you could put it on your wallets on coin base or anywhere. It is the most important thing is you know it's it's somewhere, and then when you move it around to other network, with whichever blockchain

network it goes through, it's It's an entirely different conversation. So I don't feel like it's too technical, it's just why exactly is a conversation leading to is it like when you move you know, crypto with a with likely network or with our viterium, Like what exactly is the point with that movement is it moving from one coin based waters or another coin based Water isn't moved like

So that's the thing. But you know when many of this company, like the case we're talking about Patricia, it came is Patricia used the money, the crypto accets with the postive with Patricia on the Patricia network in terms of Patrick Patial wallets to precise, and that is where the issue is and so that is where you have conversations. The same thing applies with an FTX, and that is why you're having people who talk about you should be a self

custodian for your cryptocurrency asset. You should have a wether light whether it's at storage or whatever it is, or you should be the one to you know, have access solar access to your cryptocurrency and wallet and when you need to make a transaction, you know how to do it by yourself. And that is a very technical aspect of it, and which is why people to not

do it because it's too technical. The reason why cryptocurrency exchange exists in the first place is because the whole idea of being a self custudia for your own bitcoin wallet or whatever it is it's a little bit. It's quite technical, and it doesn't scale to the population that you'd expect. Imagine if you were your own sending pack like you had to be the one to work out with.

Let's say you have three million or ten million there are in your Senate packing quotes world and you're working around ten millionaire and every time you want to make a transaction, you have to go through some crazy look to make it happen, and the other person has to figure out the way to accept that money from you. It's like it's complicated. That is where your money is in the bank. That is why your money is accessible in the way it

is at the bank. That is what the cryptocurrency exchanges model themselves after to be a bank for crypto and unfortunately many of them have done poorly in terms of being custodians of wallets for everyday consumers. And that is what the issue is. It is not whatever it is that you're talking about. It is the fact that as replicas of banks, many of them are from poorly and they have lost tom phones, either true acts or true for and so that is where the issue is right now. It is not a case of you

know, whatever network. We're talking about the safty case of who is what kind of platform has to be? Or sure, I say, how can cryptoconlity platforms operate better in our the kind of banking experience that every day people expect, which the irregular bank bank Chase Bard. It's a certain consonation, you know, the network and whatever. All right, I'm back, who

Gods of hands up. I'm gonna make them speak just so just to get to clarify for the folks that are listening in about at if I if I'm wrong, I think that the whole idea of a crypto exchange is because they don't use Fiat. So a bank uses Fiat, it means that the currency of a bank, the cash the bank has, is legal tender across the board. So naira is legal tender. It's using a bar, it's using Kaduna is using legos. But if I have a tyrium, for instance,

right, it's not legal tender anywhere perhaps in the world. So if I have a tium and I won't say polka or whatever it is, you then go to You are supposed to go to the exchange and say I want polka, I have aterium. I swap it out. That's what the exchange in paper is designed to do. But what happens is that the exchange becomes this avid trash mechanism where if I have fat, I can buy poker thinking that the price will go up then I can sell and get my cash back or

get my my materium back later. So the exchange that becomes this big casino where I am looking to get in get out this. I plug in funds, I take out funds here, and I think it's that That's where the problem is. That it's not a it's gambling for lack of a better world. You go in there and you are hoping that volume momentum will push a particular non fiat currency up then can take your money back. So people are going there and not looking to transfer anything. Right that look into trade.

So I actually give me a money to an investment house in quote without a license. I don't think anyone goes to a crypto house and says, oh, I want to transfer mont let me go to Patricia. No. I think they go there for the expectation of making a return or whatever deposit in quote that they are giving to Patricia. And when you're doing that you have to have the expectations you can lose one hundred percent or you can gain one

hundred percent. We're not at the level of why've on hedging those deposit me to Patricia, if I go to the stock market, I can tell exactly what I would lose because I can hedge. Do we have that in the exchange markets in Nigeria, I mean not in the US in Nigeria, so it's a very difficult market. But I just want to put that point out there. Living them really quick. You're want the own mutant says, something,

go ahead if I moved to Zilo. Yeah, since there's a space first of all, and I will give you good your relation for you to spend your nineteen jus kind of talking about you for eleven thousand years forty and for the universtors in the crypto space. And he did not regulation. In fact, he ran out of the country. So it's just like you don't have to be where you don't need to have perations to be your ware. You don't need to go. You can't go to G forty fourty. So

it depends on this oublication of the case and thegether. I get it, but I think the interesting thing is that it's very important for us to know that the X marketing Naginia has really pushed when it has not just for space bulleting for age reasons, because it's very easy to get totter for example, to look at the top market. Our fan need to get better. It's true the packet you see the regulars using that for transaction. So I took

that. In fact, I know a number of Naginas that really needs no constating for mob is through the pwo P to buy shares to enforce their family. And that's why CP has been completed. That banks are not getting West time I was not getting and they need to use ride said this, and so I don't want to be better and others to chuge that do we have returned in Africa? Because you know, I tak as gunders and a god species and I look at numbers and sometimes it's exctly the word value in the

company Stripe and evolution and particiondoers. It took a cut of four five billiondis and now it's work approtic beyonders. If you look at you, if you invested when the infections you want right now we have this tety thousand dollars if you look at that cart, if that cat is the prof want to do recept onto the world listed on the nastar or we use very man quite profitable and the company at some point had a very interesting valuation as us to first

begs like dollars. Now the company has around around like it's team doing more than the hype of price. The question is don't we see that raising money in dollars for many of this com in this Africa. It's even it's advantage when you know, as your market is Africa, for example, you also look at your fan that you can see you see over the years because I

invested in becose I I invested in? Someone is saying yes, actually that most of these founders if they are if they have a strong business, if they have a strong person in there, the other person has a very strong business. And that's why you see compos like Bicky, First Foot Away Play start doing very well because we have a kind of very balance structured team.

Why are we're looking at all those things because you know, I don't know us to look at this, but I'm just give realizing that all these things because we are really shouting if those companies could cut their evolutions that have because I don't see how you be yes, you can say it's a bank being what's lesson having begond us, but they made for the beyonds a fear family of four millions appear an really that they're going to give me in you,

but that the lost there's one family has put lost six pillon there in twenty twenty one. You know, these are things that we need to add this

conversation. And that's why I said that we need to start enlightened people because primary volations are for suphicated is very very tricky, and you as not through the covert investors to this because all of distance can the proper don't distance at And that's when when it comes to the markets, you see lot of starts covered out because from the likes of Google, Facebook and the toteneration told me it's really comfort to see any successful pay company that listed and you adding a

very popular people company has lost this volution, but a mother have to say it. So those are things I want to actually say. That's means good, good, good context, good cons Go ahead and we'll have the guys speak. Go ahead, all right, I didn't have to add one short time. Oh actually, okay, do you know what about before you go let me zeelon is gonna speak ze loon or do what's hoting them? Will let you go So Zealand and go ahead answer your questions? Yeah, z

go ahead. Yes, I just would like thank you for letting me speak. I just would like to break this discussion into a pan African level, and being an African entrepreneur that went through the phase of that having access to capital and finally found a way to get capital and then finally found a way to scale and go at the international level, I would like to speak of what I know, and what I know is that the African projects and African

entrepreneurs usually are started for capital. They don't have the opportunity to raise definitely not locally because locally they're basically constrained with whatever local liquidity is and allocation to

enter in general, and that's extremely low. And and and internationally they don't get any interaction because unfortunately today if you want to raise serious money, you have to go to San Francisco. We have few guys that did incubators that that we've you've been talking about, and you mentioned but these are fine between and and my advice would be as follow. The first issue that African entrepreneurs suffer from and that today can be resolved is to be able to raise capital

at the global level. And that is definitely that if definitely solved la the ability to raise via digital assets. When I talk about crypto, I talk about a mean to raise money, not as an investment or doing products or doing companies do in the crypto space. I'm talking about it basically as a

tool for capitalization. This allows African entrepreneurs to address a global, global audience from from from a capital introduction standpoint, and it allows them to access at the same at the same at the same level as an Indian entrepreneur or any other entrepreneurs. Indian entrepreneur, by the way, have been doing extremely well in using this tool in order to raise money for whatever startup, whatever problem

is there, startup solving. Once you raise money via digital assets, because the infrastructure, the the the underlying infrastructure allows you to do that, then you can convert it. Obviously that's your runaway and then you convert it to stable coins immediately. You don't take any speculation, you're not there too that's that your crypto holdings. That's not your crypto runaway, that's not your personal holdings. That's a runaway for you to solve one specific problem for which people

that don't know you internationally as have given you money. And that's again I came back again to the to the to the African UH to an African culture of entrepreneurship. Is important to show very good examples of that because the digital that's obviously you're raising from people internationally, so there is no international law that applies. It is obviously legal law if you do for they can go after

you locally, et cetera. But you know fine between so so a lot of entrepreneurs attempted just to think that as the retirement money and stop doing whatever they do it because it's tough to build a company and and so once you raise the money, you just converted into whatever stable coin you converted it into your local currency, and that's basically your runaway to do the uniqu core.

I really encourage every entrepreneur that has issue access in capital to prioritize the way of of of raising money digitally from a from A from a as a digital asset using the digital asset infrastructure in order to do so and address in a global public and not to waste time and I'm sorry maybe this is a little

bit of polymic, but not to waste time with local incubators. Local incubators, they usually have political agendas, usually have subsidies, They usually have things that are not productive for him to get the money in his company and move forward. And that's all I wanted to say, thank you very much for allowing me to do something. All right, so about a mission that's several holpe operations. So maybe let's have you comment what you've heard and then we'll

let you go fast. All right. I guess I really don't know what I know what to say about the second question about this access. I mean, they are like they're doing some in trust and use cases for US induced access to raise fund them for a company. And you know there are times when people were big on I CEOs initial kind offerends and you know we have the next experiences or mixed results with them. But you know, so everybody

is their own. That'll be fine. The question outstanding is on about how much dollar raises can have impact on companies and we are not and how does avunations tend to be very popular, and should I say, yeah, it's been very it's been in flux in terms of how these companies are performed. I think that is a general issue, to be honest, because when you look at the examples, you know, Reumally mentioned he talked about instat Carts,

which did this IPO. Again, the stack card had not been profitable for a while, and it was profitable significantly last year simply because mostly because of the task of tax implications. There was a big bomb in its profit because of it got a windfall from taxing and stuff like that. But overall, it's been a tough run for publicly traded companies that used to be startup studying recently. I think that is a general issue for many of these companies.

The market sentiments since strangerly One has turned relatively negative, and so any company that wants to go public, that wants to raise funding has had to deal with difficult conversations with investors, has had to deal with, you know, the possibilities that they will take a haircut on their evaluations, which again evaluations are very subjective, and so the tends are different, and that is affecting how these businesses think about their finance. I would say there are many

companies that are doing well. They are doing well in the context that they are britten in the reason why their evaluations may not pop to weigh these other companies. It's on different levels, Like you can't even really tell on your own because sometimes you're not to do room with this guy. You don't know what they're discussing. You don't know how much equity the new investor who wants

to give them a twuity billion dollar valuation wants in return. Maybe they're want to own ninety percent of the company, and the CEO said, no, hold on to what we have. We don't know for a fact. And so maybe that if they had said yes to ninety percent, they would have gotten in two hundred billion dollar valuation and they will be the most valuable company in the world. But they can't because maybe you know, in terms of they do the source and negotiation, it just doesn't favor than the way they

expect. And so there are a bunch of issues why these companies that look like they're doing well do not get the evaluations that they deserve. And so that is different. That is a different conversation generally, I do not think

dollar raises are inherently bad. Like we're talking about companies that are perated in difficult macroeconomic environments in Africa, like in Nigeria, you raise one million dollars last year, a million dollars last year in official rate was less than five hundred there actually dollars today's it's approaching in thousands are on the official course, and so that makes it difficult for you as a company when you want to

justify the valuation you had when Denier was treating less than less than five lliond are. Now you have to your revenue has to be four types, not even double. It has to be way more, has to grow way more faster than it is with the horizon that you had when for a five to famary actually dollar. It's a different macroeconomic environment. You're in a difficult position. That is not something you created for yourself. You did not see it

coming. You could as in it coming. But who that guest that the narra would depreciate from four hundred naro to a thousand are actually in generary very few people who could have said it. With your food just everybody could have said it as speculation and said, you know the nara is going to fall to two thousand air but you can't as for a fact. You can't say that you don't know for a fact that that is going to happen. You can speculate, but you can see the future. And so that is a

challenge that many of these companies are facing. You have in macroeconomic environment that is not favorable to you, one that you cannot also control, and you can see the future. If you decide to raise money locally from naira based investors, you might have to deal with stranger in terms. Maybe they want more equity for every nire that it gives you. Maybe you don't want that. Maybe you want investors who have higher quality in terms of the ability to

help you expands with different countries. Maybe those are the things that you want to have at the back of your mind when you look at investors and how you want to raise money from them. So it's an entirely complicated dynamic when it comes to fund raising evaluation and who the investors that are giving your money are. And so I do not think you know raising in dollars inerity bad. I do also think if you raise local if it's a bad thing.

It all depends on what you're objective for the business and the founders are. If it aligns with whoever you to investor you want to go, then it's okay. I think as long as the business gets the objective that he wants with either found raised mechanism, I think they're okay, to be honest. The one thing that is complicated though, is if you raise money in the r it would that help you grow to what you want to grow? If you're raising million dollars, what do it help you grow to where you want

to grow? And you know, ever, I think that we've talked about in terms of health, valuation, handicaps a company's it's a challenging topic in the sense that if a company is worth three billion dollars last year or four billion dollars last year and again, so if I say that, I would say, we have very few unicorns, So I don't understand why we're taking it out on them so hard. Based on I understanding, I think officially we have less than six unicoms on the African continent, and many of them

are trying their best. In terms of the micro commuic environment that you are facing to justify that valuation that we have. And it's tough because again, nobody saw what was going to happen in Ghana. You could expect it, but you couldn't say it as a fact that Ghana's economy would you know, be so bad that bond holders would see, you know, forty percent haircuts on the amount of money that they're given to the government the years nobody could

have seen. You know. The can economy has also had its own short evaluation, you know, with the with the change rates slighting a bit same in Nigeria, so which has come poorly for many of the companies that operate here. So I would say that macroeconomic realities are problem for every company investing and doing business on the continent. It is not specific to startups. It doesn't favor startops per sea, then does it put them at a huge disadvantage

compared to any of our company on the continent. What is there as a fact is that this environment is a challenging one and companies are struggling whether or not they will survive the current funding winter is a different composition entirely. But to be honest, I think when people understand what the climate looks like, and they forecast the growth for the companies that they're investing in based on the

level of the structure economically that's happening in their various markets. I think that would help them make better judgments in terms of how they deploy money into these companies. But I do not think valuation is the dollar valuation that they're getting is destructive. I think the investors are smart people, the founders are smart people. They've put the dollar tag behind the company that fits whatever objective that they had. It's up to the company to justify it, and if it

fails, it fails. In the case of that, that was what happened. Nobody was talking about how much how much valuation DASH was worth at the time of collapse. It was is a popular statistic, over eighteen million dollars, and it has failed in less than four years. And everybody who is involved is right now licking their owns, trying to figure out what went wrong, trying to figure out how to avoid the same mistake in the future.

And that has an effect that the valuation of every other company in the market, every other person is going to learn from these mistakes and find a way to match up to the reality of the market that they're operating in. Besides that, I don't think I don't think we have to really be overly critical of the companies and expect them to, you know, not be the way

that is that you know, that respectly that they should. I think they would do what is best for them and if it doesn't work work, journalists will chronicle these companies as they rise on the floor and we would also try to find out where each of them had their own unique videos as a business. The great, great, great, great great session with you, I

mean, we don't have enough time. As you can see, there are lots of folks that want to talk and some folks that asked me not to shut down the space, but just the one have a few questions and thans you want to leave. Let me ask you my last question that I can

just you go, just quick one. Do you think it would be beneficial to menser economy and to generate exchange rate if we're to allow the crypto guys get licensed and allow the banks to receive cryptos, be some costody arrangement going on, so in sure the crypto guys are banned from the general financial sector. Would you think would be beneficial if we bring back crypto those folks into the nageral banking sector, just like fintech do. What do you what's your

take on that last question. I mean, it's it's a it's a conversation about utility and a conversation about value. The land germ financial system the way immedially has conditioned us. I think that's the right way to look at it.

Since twenty sixteen in particular, has been such a very hostile environment when it comes to monetary policies to support how thenerror, you know, should trade and so he has, you know, he has, you know, left a very ridiculous precedent for any other person that has come after him, and so you've seen a level of hostility with anybody who wants to even't being involved

international payments over the last six years. It's unfair. It's been destructive and we're only now beginning to understand how much destruction he has caused to the n joint economy. And so I would say for that question, it is a question of how is the government going to embrace it fully because again, the one thing to understand is Nigeria has had currency controls for a long long time. Even before me, I feel like they were currency controls to ensure that

the Nioto dollar exchange was stable. What has happened in the last six years is the rate of that gap has accelerated so much that it's no longer sustainable. And again the rest of the economy has just been messed up with the dual reality of miphi aquire. So that's a general issue right now. Do

I think that opling of the cryptal space in Nigeria would help? I would say if the government is able to find a way to ensure that cryptocurrency plays nicely with the Nigera financial system, I think there might be some value there. For example, if you're able to send US City from the US to Nigeria, and that usity you can move it from your uisity worlds into niger bankcounts and the city can track that that transactionally have legal it was not fraudulent.

It's something that could be valuable for an economy like Nigeria where we have a huge or growing the asporat that is sending tens of billions of dollars back to the country and they're looking for a fairly decent stable way to send this money. And so I think if the cyby in itself can have like full confidence that it can legally track how funs move, whether it's fiat or crypto, I feel like it will be valuable to the rest of the economy generally.

I do not think that it will be destructive if the cybian is not able to guarantee or ensure that crypto plays nicely with the rest of the financial system. What you would have is there averse where people would look for a way to flush out money out of the country legally and illegally using crypto, and that would be detrimental to Nigeria entirely. And so that that would be

my take on crypto. If it's able to track have funds move, And again by track, I don't mean destroy the privacy that comes to crypto. I simply need be able to ensure that the cryptocurrency exchange is involved, are able to provide proper kyc know your customer and anti fraud checks to ensure that a Yao boy, for example, doesn't simply move one hundred million dollars from the US to Nigeria and that money is not going to be traced in any

sense or form. If the cylian is able to ensure that that is ha me where you're able to track fund movements legally and a lot of people move money legally again, then I think might be somebody. I just got word from somebody else about to me. I think I have about twenty minutes left before I jump off. Super atalment is great, so let us let us front little of the guys. They're no worries. I've got I am Danielle. Danielle, you've got the floor. Leta's go ahead more than I see

daniel go ahead. Yes, sir, I think it's left to daniel. I just wanted to touch on the privacy issue quickly if I could jump on this because of what Apobaca has raised. Right, So this is the narrative that most people who want crypto adoption in Nigeria push, where they say the government should ky see them or give them ability to have themselves kys st that they can move on. But the sad reality is most of the people who really understand how to use the technology choose to do so in a non KYS

fashion. They are like the real people that have huge world so therefore they go for other technology to that ensure that privacy, privacy or attribute or advantage. What are your takes on people who choose to not want to use KIS, because that is really what the technology is about. Are you against people who are pushing for non KIC use of the technology or people must k I

s themselves so that the government can rackle forward. Sorry, I wanted to talk on I wanted to add up that thatch mand finance this year if I second one not them to band take advice nager customers to avoids most popular destiny. Now we also need to understand that you see I'm not enough times I always work through because first people think I may see be a contract and division is because look at pains from the site. Now the CPN, it's not

just a critical about crypto the central banks and their cover. My ch is busier account. I go a message the last last plot that if I easy any crypto transaction that can be closed, I have accous in other judicis that with popular banks that these are countries that they have So there's a limittive between banks and crypto space. But I know where I can just cope from what you see. The trickiest that to be market for example, has become now

has become systemic important. And because it's not all that you shown that you are, it's very difficult for the CPN right now to interfere with a scursiation that prove fast and you said that they don't have anything loose with that yet. Also r just talk about utility. We have a unity kid in the ctal space behind banks like the central banks are the area is working with Excel network in terms of this kind of strift transaction because it's faster than swift.

So we have CREP classes that do those things and there's a time you pe and the money clad. Also because I covered as to be twenty twenty one, they had an adaptation with the help view because of the bank going forward, I think what is needed year is a quasive financial system way if you know you has really bring in discuss like what the British or you aline policies that will attracked liquidity to the systems. What am I saying rather I'm baling

crypto. I feel like they should have been a case of in case of okay, if you want to deal with the banks, you must have set in the post. In most misearching metrics because something like, for example, they were willing to go, they were willing to register. That's what they did for us. That's what they're trying to do. That's what they did in Japan. So back to the question is that I think we need to look in was that it's not just these guys want to bad. I don't

see them with the fact that it is. No, it's not. It's not that they're just bad. These are days between the United States to the country to grow that can afford to know the backet that because they had reserve currency, many countries don't have put out that luxury. So I wanted to add that the club Okay, yeah, go ahead of the work. Sorry, because mons you want to take, you want to belong this before I let you go more to ask this question. It is going to be your

course for about I think fifteen minutes. Now. Yeah, I was quickly forgot what the first question was. The pacy, Yes, piracy, I would say, yeah, crypto. Crypto basically gives freedom, financial freedom to people. And you know, there's been good actors that have leveraged that freedom that you know, cryptocurrency brings, and there's been a lot of bad actors

who have misused it and created bigger problems for everybody involved. And again, you know, Nigeria is a country that has a cyber and problem with so many our boys who cause trouble for us financially, abroad and locally, and so we have to look at our market from that context to say, if we do support a pro privacy environment for cryptocurrency in Nigeria, would the scams and fraud that we have been so unfairly you know, labeled that we are

one of the worst enablers in the world, would those activities continue, Would they continue a mass or would they slow down? With they stop? If we cannot fully answered that question, then we have a problem, a real

problem that we have to address. But generally, you know, there are a lot of people who use cryptop because of it's privacy rules, and that is valuable for everybody who are trying to escape like what I may Feeling was trying to do in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one where he was actively blocking people's accounts because they supported the Answers protest. In that kind of scenario,

crypto is useful and you know, it's it has real advantages. But yeah, I would say it's up to first what the individual involved in the cryptocurrency activity wants to do. If it's not fraudulent, then it's up to use your choice. If you can, you know, actively or properly block that transaction so that people know that this transaction like when people, I mean the financial system knows that this transaction is not fortuleent, regardless of wet not to

put your identity there. But that is what the challenge is. Do you want total freedom to access financial tools in a market like Nigeria that has a high rates of cyber crime or do you want to have protection where the market itself is able to ensure that that risk of saba crime is reduced to the bare minimum and everybody can feel safe transacting in a Nigeria financial system. That is the byfocation of the market that we are in when we're having this conversation

about privacy. Nigeria is not in a space where a person can make a statement and say the Nigerian government is watching us. You can see that make that statement, and you see how true it is, and you can also see how nuanced it is. I think I look again, delimited everyone, not me. Everyone's to be able to speak. Now, I didn't touch it, Yeah, I didn't touch it. I think it just went off for some I didn't touch it, Abacca, you'll get to speak ahead.

Yeah, So that so that would be my point is like the Nigeria financial system is different from the US. If we want pro privacy, you know, the financial system would have to get to a point where it feels safe with the level of transaction activity that's happening. If we want pro security, the system itself would have to ensure that it's not maltreating people or unfairly targeting

people that use the section mechanism. And so that's where we are. We don't have that level of trust with the government and we also do not have that level of trust for it's some of our citizens who are engaged in huge

volume of sabak. Would you say that it is wrong to deal with people who give exposure to cryptos that are of compliance because once your tokens of a compliant and you're asking for regulation and basically calling for because in the case that you did mention right of the answer, the people who resulted to finding a solution during the answers debacle, chose to use a technology that wasn't strange, gent and over compliment and call the housed analysis and all that. Right,

So should the message rather be people? Uh? While I agree with you, right, but well I would slightly disagree that privacy would push out influx of money. I think that what Nigeria needs, or what Nigerians need, like people that are calling for, is more of the dollars, uh, you know, residing in the country to help move the economy, whether or not the people who the dollar are good or bad people. Right, So if there's more privacy, you allow people to freely use their money, then

that's uh free. How could you just keeper of our compliant tools and the ability for people to choose to use privacy tools. Even though you touched on that, Yeah, I mean it's it's it's fairly the same thing in the sense that in the sense that they were overly compliant because of the reality of the nigrant market you you had, they had no choice, like you wanted to make sure that you were you were able to uprad in the market. Again, with two hundred million people, you expect that you be able to

solve that market. And so you're trying to do how you're trying to find a way to remain you know, comfortable with the regulators and not have issues with them. And so that is completely fine. And you know, if you're able to do that without any problems, then you know, go ahead as a business and do so. But you know, the challenge has always

been when it comes to the exchangery, it's muret all problems. We have to look at it from the balance of payment perspective for the interior, at the balance of trade as perspective for Nigeria at the same time, like do we do like you know, all of those issues that have to do with were not we have enough dollary results, which stems on the fact that we don't expect them enough to be able to have enough dollars in our bank account

as a federation to be able to fight or maintain a descent or should I see a stable exchange rate. That is something that the government itself has to ensure. It is not something that cryptocurrency alone can assists. It is not something that people simply moving money in and out of the country itself would be

able to be able to address. If the economy is audience. If you know we're trading, we're shifting as much oil as we should, if we're trading as much exports as we should, so it's fairly good at you look at If you look at his circle data all the way before twenty sixteen, you would see where the troubles start are from how the deep happen, and you see that it coincides too with the collapse of the Naira during that same period. So it's not simply a problem with the monetary policy of how people

move money in and out of the country. It's also a problem with how the government itself. It's marshaling the zoos for exports and also supporting an industry or industries that can put people to work, help people earn this income, and also provide productive industries for exports. So we do not have all of those things working efficiently right now, So that affects the whole economy, including our exchangees. But I would say, yeah, it's whichever our companies they

are. If they're able to maintain compliance and also able to serve their customers fairly or properly, that would be a win win for everybody. But unfortunately, like we all know the legal system and the justice system in Nigeria is not working optimally. The economy isn't performing optimality, the trading system for exports isn't working optimality. Logistic system for moving goods and services within Nigeria it's not

also performing properly. So we have all of these deficiencies and the only thing we can do as a government is fixated on how to ensure that have a it's stables, stable naira without actually providing the resources to make sure that happens. And that has been at the LEMMA for the last six years. And if we don't fix those fundamentals, I don't see how realistically adjust to a crypto pro crypto environment that serves everybody effectively. Yes, strong point, more

than let me get you to comment. Thanks for holding on a patient much the discussion. I've moved away from my first point, but I hope I know that goes back well. Do tribute is for afudence and I must say that they're on different occasions. I am from my house in Nigeria called that sums camps in America and Canada and the company have crashed. I didn't have to go look at them anybody's balance it or to any research just from my

house. I've quite companies. When people show you where they are, believe them. That's all I'm going to say for that, because it is not what I've done any being an investigation or not. Is just that I would just see the truth and I would just say it. Sometimes. Last month someoneted me wanted to invest in the company. I told you this company is going down, and two literally company went down. Currently the CITFC is suing

them. So I hope the CITYFC will recover the money of the retail investors and traders like myself and give back to them, but I don't see that happening anyway. Then now to the discussion and what the mister College strees, which I for the first time I would stugree with them. Mister Carl, we want integration of crypto in the banks. I'm not an axe part of the economy, so in case, I'm let me make that c effence so

that the body will come for my neck. First off, based on my lead to experience of my little money in the bank, the bank cannot even do transactions. Our technology for everything, our banking system, I believe is borrowed from them from the West. You transfer somebody five thousand, if the person will see four thousands it you don't know where to do. Nobody can

understand. We are not wanted go. Maybe they will say to them CBM pointe and we are going to speak English and nobody on understands and that just dies down from there. And then also we have multiple rates. I cannot go to the bank to receive doctor collect dollar. I remember I wanted to continue particular bank and would mention the bank to call boy Lemons. That's what the band said. I don't want you should do that that they give you

bring the dollar for me. That the Indians time anyway, it's really ridicuous for Lemon, the market, the country. But when I want to collect. But when I when when I wanted to call that my dollar, the bank wanted to change the money for me. They told me that they're going to give me in read that I do not bring life the bank. We basically wanted to cheat me in front daylight. So if the bank can do that with our currency, is it with them bitcoin that they will not do

that. The bank would just be complement and tell you that the essence rate is two thousand. What's in your phone? You're saying forty two thousands before you know now you have blocked its sixty four thousand. So this is a one of the issues that I will not agree for the advanta go into crypto because they cannot even measure normal currency dollar to niral accounts. And secondly, the technology, the blockchain technology. I don't think the pup in the bank

understand. My father has a degree in banking and finance is taking time to explain what is blockchain to him? So is it? This is the average banker with hard certificated inclish to do to get them. You cannot understand blochin technology the banker has partificially that is working over the count. How do you want to explain how the tradition will work the same even interpret that the data.

This is a real situation that even is not even government is the technical my money to study learn investing two people to reach other to re call because of a cryptal transaction majority they show prints the documents. It's only we're going to check the the JR to just do some forigm Saek investigation and let your

to let us see the develop chain. My friend from the university said that as a as a research person there, he called me and said that what did they do in a ship some documents instead of them so benign some phones? If that was the right world to do. And broadly we in Indi Nageland space we love control, particularly from the government's side. Anything government cannot control and they don't know how to tax, then they will just destroy.

That's why I'm talked about them may feel and grog practices because they want the system there, but they can be able to track. This morning I read the not to Cook from a political figure year. I hope it is wrong that as the bank is suing is a group of people because of somebody has somebody had and the person went to to transaction in in in paranto part in so spect and all all of a sudden it is the deal last that are

going that I've been to, not around the hat. I hope that is a lie anyway, because in the in the in the same time, you you go for the person that call, but not for the people that sold something from the Leger criminal or whatever. And also for the for this space. I felt so bad in this space at the point of time because the topic is funding, scaling and funding and skiing the topics, but the end end not talking about comes and talking about problems and use and do even mention

the companies that need funding or covering and need skill. Instead, we are looking for some sort of consumer protection and some sort of good behavior, which I believe is in not if I'm good for an investor, because investors not come here to this space and maybe the one to hear what our company is. But instead there is busy holding us some companies that are run away to estonia, as as the case be in income in complution sign our bands are

not only doing a good job. You make it transferred today. The person will see me next week. So if you if it comes to crypto now, because of we don't even have lights as common as it is somebody I want to let me see our volume gets to like a billion dollars per day now X For example, how we the bank and handle search forlumes of transactions when they of the gen around eight o'clock because for crypto they we need at

least a constant part supplies. So agenda is a clock now, so when you receive your crypto by ten o'clock now before I know your money, I've disappeared by too. So these are the things that I would learn. I wish people in the space can at least clarify so that so we can see what to not join the central Bank boards, the band themselves. I believe you have cloless. They don't even know what plug chain is. Thank you very much. Yeah, what's the question? I must say, Carols time

bound. But let me just address a few issues. I really want to talk about funding issues for text space in Africa. At the very top talked about the funding in Africa, adjust number one, about the African companies still having funding issues. We did touch that. We talked about going concern and that's what we say, talk about the what's their name, the dash and the rest. We spoke about those guys as well. So it's just to touch with and see, you know, take a temometer to the African text

space particleist. We're not trying to raise funds here, but he writes a lot of good stories and I wanted to bring us on that. We just talk around them, right. He's very instructive for in versus the command and listen to us talk about this company so they can also get a gauge on how we do here this company. I think it was don a good job

in bringing up many issues. Usually when I do spaces, we end up discussing what's not on the on the crime, because really topics can go away and take Oackground been very very patient with us his own side of the issues. You know, he's not regulator, he's just a journalist and fully put amount of the pressure and that's the answer. So let me just say that way that it's been a good session with him. Possibly we try to bring him back. Remember well to off for tty minutes, so it's been here

technically two hours or more with us Aperc. Let me just have you on mute and probably just go ahead and give your closing remarks and then if possible, opening into the space open for a while, suppose can talk. Otherwise then you just have your your closing remarks if you don't mind, all right, Thank you so much, kind Thank you once again everybody for having on

this space. It's been a fantastic conversation and to be honest, it's been mind blowing hearing people talk different different perspectives about the industry that I cover so intensely. And hearing the perspectives too, and so it makes me. It helps me get our feedback for what next I'm going to write about and how

I'm going to write two stories. And I would also take advantage of that to say I hope that more people would read text stories published by tech About actively stories published by me and my colleagues at various publications at tech Crunch, wi Track, at Techniques. Please follow the stories. And I also have a sub stack that I fairly haven't published much, but it's there and I'm hoping to publish more actively over the coming weeks, So please follow and subscribe

if you can so I can continue to have more updates. Put the links. So sorry it's really interrupt you, but if you can put the link up in the nest to your stop stock, it'd be lovely. I don't know how to put the link, but the link is on my bio on Twitter, Like literally, when you open my bio on Twitter, you'd see the link. I don't know how to put the link on this on the

Twitter space, but it's on my on my bio. But yeah, and so I'm really excited about the conversation that we've had Tod it's It's always very interesting because most of the time when we talk about tech, we have a lot of people talk about it. We talk about the investment side, we talk about the product side, we talk about the talent issues, the corporate covenents. But then you have to customer support issues and the customer enlightenment and

educational aspect of it. And there are a bunch of you know, generally, there are a lot of issues that people face. Some of these issues that you don't get adequate responses to them from the companies or from the regulators.

And I tend to see this a lot like when people like a company will treat something or the Central Bank of manager will treat something, and right under that suite you see hundreds of messages from everyday people who are asking the central bank to look intowards gender bank has done wrong to them, what one other company has done wrong to them, what other banks have done wrong to them, and to that makes sense the banks to respond in those messages or

those those those street that posts, and so yeah, I understand where everybody is coming from when they talk about the step companies and how they've been burned. I, you know, not necessarily bad investment. But should I see fradudentt and you know, bad practices by the companies that they have done business with or traded with or worked with, and so those issues are fairly standard, are fairly understood. But yeah, again I would say thank you again

Carlo for hosting the space. Uh and I hope that more people again would read this. Thank you so much for putting it in the stuff that I would have more people, you know, read the stories as you publish them and gage with us if you have questions. Again, if you have tips, if you notice anything about any company that you feel is shaky, please do reach out to us myself other journalists, send us a d M. Tell us what you have, give us a tip, because that is really

how journalism works. We once we have that information or begin to act on it as quickly as possible, and that would help to you know, provide the rest of the reports and that you see when you when you read about the company that has gone bost a company that has done equal to their customers. We need all your information to be able to do so, we need your tips to be able to do so. And please please please feel free to reach out to me to call to anybody who covers the industry to be

able to share this information anonymously and also properly too. Thank you so much, and do subscribe to the subtract. Thank you. And the last question for you is tech about the local? Is it a drunk company or I've also wanted to ask that question and it wasn't tech about tech World? Why do you guys local? Yes, talk about is local? Take About is based in legal states, and take about is the subsidiary of Big Cabal Media, the same the same company that owns zico Co, the popular culture website,

and so we owner and take about it. Well the tech Crunch is it you guys as well? No tech count is an international publication, so Cabal is local one that okay, gotcha? Okay, just clean that up, Okay, super okay. Times of Brock mean, I can't thank you. I know we've gone back and forth on this and I appreaciate you coming and spending time and just educating us all. I think I've learned a lot today and I thank you for your time and I appreciate it for all those

that also contributed, Thank you so much. I think we've taken common sense of it. This stuff is recorded. If you go to my top my TL you so the podcast link there. Once we're done, I'll share it so you can also listen to it. If you have a question or follow up send me or about car a DM and of course to address it. We always here every weekend Sunday, seven pm talking about money, finances.

Of course the economy are going to be here next week. Are Goain trying to bring you some big boys that have to apps that we can talk about Nigeria, how to track this in Nigeria and talk about the budgets and all that. So be here next week's Sunday again with us when we do that. Also get my book. Guys, if you're interested in investing, you can't be an investor if you don't understand how money works. You cannot know how money works simply because you earn money. That's like seeing I'm a doctor,

I have a body. You know, you've got to understand how money works, how it's investable, what are the risks and all that. So get the books on Amazon. It's tadled. Let's talk about your money. Read it. Understand how to invest, how to don asset allocation, how to do a simple budget. How to understand what return on investments is read understand the most importantly apply don't wait before you invest. Invest let then you start to wait. Right all right, folks, I'm want to let you

guys go and joy us your weekend tomorrow. It's Monday. It should be a blessed weekend weekday for all of you guys. Peace of the world. Thank you broker, I think limit. Thanks to the Satshi all guys are communiy. You guys have a good day and enjoyer us very weekend. By thanks tetulity, you have a good one for buy