Lets Talk About Options For the Naira, Devalue of Defend

Hey guys, welcome to another spaces with me Kaluaja Money Spaces. Welcome wherever you are. This week, we have you know, rather simple subject, rather simple issue of course. You know every week we're here talking about money, the economy and of course finance, and we are always trying to make it personal to you. You know, how can this economic topic that you hear about, how do they affect your personal wallet. That's what we do

here every weekend. Today's a Sunday and we're talking to the value or defend question. Let me lay out the facts or shouls in the background for you how this plays out. Every economy, rights or every country has got a currency and your currency, it's your means of exchange. The way it's set up in the world right now, you have the US dollar, which we call the reserve currency or the currency of settlement. So you have the US currency. That's how you trade safe from Nigeria to say the UK or to

Germany. You don't exchange nira for deutschmarks or for the euro. Rather, you will take your nira, your local currency, you exchange for United States dollars, which is the reserve currency and the currency for settlements. Then you didn't buy German goods. The same thing, if German wants to buy crude oil from Saudi Arabia, they don't use German marks or euros. They would get the US dollar and then use the US dolot to exchange with Saudi Arabia

for crude oil. So, as you see, the dollar is what we call the exchange or the reserve currency for international settlements in the world, the US dollars. So the question now is when you have the naira, if you want to import or export, you're going to settle those trades in naira, which means sorry, in United States dollars, which means you will sell crude oil in dollars and you will also get your payments in dollars. Right, you are not going to spend dollars in Nigeria. Rather, you spend

the naira in Nigeria. The more you export, the more you build up the volume of dollars that you have in your reserves. The more you import, the more you reduce the amount of dollars in your reserves. When you export, of course, you know you don't get the dollars, so you get wealthy. When you import, you use the dollars, so you lose

your wealth. Now, the exchange rates of the nira to the dollar, if you don't know the match, what we're talking about means that if you have what we call a week nira week nighter would mean that say one dollar would exchange for say seven hundred United seven hundred naira would buy you one dollar. That's a weak nihra. Right. What it means is if I export cocoa and I end ten dollars, I end seven thousand nia. But if I have a strong nihra, what it means is that the dollar one dollar

would be saying maybe say four hundred or say three hundred. So if I export the same value of cocoa, instead of ending seven thousand naira, I in say three thousand nira. So what you can see is that the weak naira helps the nation that exports because their exports are cheaper. What do I mean If I'm a US or I'm an an importer and I want to buy coco. There's cocoa in Nigeria, in Ghana, in Ibri coast the same

coco. Right, I would spend less dollars to buy the same quantity of coco in Nigeria that I always used to spend the same quantity of dollars by the same quantity of cocoa in say Ibri Coast or Ghana. Because the local currency in Nigeria, I can buy more of the local currency in Nigeria with my same US dollars. So if I have one hundred dollars and I swap it out to naira, I get more Nira. VI if I sorted out to say Cedis or the Sepher which is used in Ibricast. So you see

what's going on internationally. When you buy and sell, you are buying and selling in relation to the dollar. So the Nira can get more for the U dandal come to Nigeria and buy more cocoa, so exports go up in Ninegeria. But if you make the naira strong, which means for a dollar I get just the three hundred, then the US imports will be like hum, I can only get three thousand era per ten dollars. I might as well go and buy cocoa from Ivory Coast, which I can get more seffer

those I can get more cocoa. So you see how currency value drives trade. If your currency is weaker. They're the products made in your country that you're going to sell in your country are cheaper, not because they are cheaper, but because when you exchange injured in the dollars a dollar, they are cheaper. So that's the point of how trade is driven by the exchange value

of currencies. That's why if you try to devalue your currency artificially, do you wish to call you a trade manipulator because you're trying to make your goods, not the currency, not the goods cheaper to get an unfair advantaged world of trade. So back to the question, does Nigeria need the strong nira which miss Niger wants to defend the nira all those Nigeria wants a weak nira, which means Nigeria wants to devalue the nira. What's the advantage of a

week that I told you the weakness. That means if you are exporting, you get more buyers for your goods. So what a Nigeria export. Nigeria exports crude oil and Nigerians which is remittances. So remittances are exports and we're export Nigeria to get us emittances. So we want a weak narra, meaning

that we get more nira from exports of oil and exports of nigils. Or do we want a strong nira which means we can import cheaper, so we can import fetalizer, we can import machinery cheaper, but our exports suffer. Economics does not give your answers. Economics give you choice. You have the

ability to import more more like leaguers. In a case where we have a weak currency and we don't export anything but export were export were exports, we're taking advantage of the weak narrator that we have, right because we have no production. So that's still something that you still want the government to fix. And then the nira would naturally appreciate because right now it's t it's weaker than what it should be, right, so it still needs a sense of appreciation,

but not to become like when we first found for it. We can we became two overvalue because of our products, right not there yea, so what we need to steal and the bit of pots de booker a booker, can you hear me, Booker? Just holding I'll get you speakless, okay, Booker. But I made the point that Nigeria actually does a lot of exports. Nigeria exports a lot of Nigerians, you know, for the jack bark, we have a lot of Nigers abroad. We also export crude oil.

So jack Bar alone is bringing to Nigeria twenty five billion dollars. This is just officially, and officially it could be maybe fifty billion. So the argument is this, if you make the naira strong, what you were saying is that that's fifty billion dollars becomes saying maybe a hundred billion nira. You know, put it in context, that's less than what the nurse spends in the month. But if you make it weak, that's fifty billion becomes like

five hundred trillion. So it does that change your take? I mean, if it's weak, it's just increasing inflation, right, isn't not what government does with all this pumping in of money time, right, It just increases the inflation and economy because you're ultimately still not doing anything with the money or not producing. So whether it's strong or whether it's weak, if you're not

exporting, for me, people might have all the opinions. I don't see anything changing, okay, because you're you're weak, because you're not put you're not doing anything. You're just spending and wasting money. That's that's my own. But in fact we can devalue our way too. Well, that's what mister Abla is saying. We cannot exactly, we can't just keep pumping money. Everybody like you just spending at seven you should be making a spending,

not selling. And you will see it slightly appreciate that you might not go to the one hundred dollars for one narrow or songs and ball like we are too low, Like seven hundred is not the value of the narrow because you know the market definitely, what do you think the value should be? What do you think just your ball park? What do you think to take a ball? And it's all speculation. Yeah, I'll still say the four hundred or the four hundred. Yeah, gotcha, I hear you, I hear

you. Book Let me get yeah, just your opinion wealth of course, let's get a limited in here, allimited. What's your take? The booker says, we can depot your way to success. He wants stronger narrow because hey, we're not producing process. Even if we're Jack Bye or that tween to five billion, we're not producing what's your take. Ye interesting conversation. You like it key parameter, so I won't to peter around the push.

I think we need a far weaker currency, far weaker. If you look at the official value, it's heavily subsidize, and that's why we see in love agrituary differentials. And also if you look at the fact that foreign reserves can barely meet SI small payments and we have substantial amounts in dollar depth exposure,

it means the country is suffering from the quiditive country. And you know our major effects standing come from Could those are just like could mention right you mentioned, but during the real president emproary could already draw from two point two to below one million parentspy and that someone made the apex banking. Can people couple with the fact that patrol substituents who created the black pools. Definitely we

need to value for many reasons. First, we need to remove that arbridguary, foreign subsidient education, foreign stuff with your medical autorism has to fly out. We also need to the market efficient. If you look at the capital market. For example, Data twenty twenty two said that out of the tron

three that came T three on that that came to the country. One three don't went to the capital market, and that's because investors did must see any incentives to invest, because a lot of people that have their phones in the market cannot even move their phones, so they have to be revested, so

there's no incentive. So we have to make our capital market efficient. I understand that a lot of people say that means it makes the country poorer because the value podulities that though that against many currencies, even the potusi pant hero as strengthened if you look at it in the past two years. And that's why we said that we have to look at market driven. I'm not really concerned about weaker or stronger. All I'm concerned about is minimizing the the cage

and the pros ubrosity around our public finances. Not just like right you say, if you look at exports and things like that. We need to divertify our economy the remittance that is coming in. If we look at how want Naga spaying uk us on education. Now doing these statistics are about them us

US gains not in less than ten pillion. Do that for quarter. I'm going to read the report sort on Boope Tata on foreign education, United Kingdom mixed millions from pounds from nine jeras and you can see they're trying to do the use and don't strategy, but the kind of block for independence of students sorry partners from reaching the UK because the thing is that every country right now is making things on theirselving re so NAGA also has to block with the kiches.

We are thinking money by the same time we're bringing you so much out and I think we are subsidistich. We also need to please our productivity and until we have an efficient effects market, I think it will be so we definitely need the biker currency. And if you ask me the level, I think it's going to be between you know, based on what Abism backs and I said, I think it's going to be between sixty five and market.

Let me be made a lot of good points there, like a lot that you touched on the UK, and I don't think you see what you're saying. UK has said that you cannot bring your family to the UK, but you can come at work and pay taxes. So the one who basically get that productivity from you, the individual, but they're not extent that social payment to your family. Good point you made there. I didn't think of their

way. Also again, you also made the point that you know, in Nigeria, because our currency or the economy, it doesn't have the productivity. Money is coming in, but it's just go into the stock market, right, it's not really being invested in the real sector of the economy. I have the family wanted to speak. I'm want to make him talk later to talk about where this function go to. You also made that point very very

good and clear. And you're looking like you want a weaker currency because you feel that that would enable the Nigeria to you know, to cushion the blues as it's ware of the economy that is not performing. I mean, I hear you again. It's not a right or wrong. That's like I said, the economics gives you options, doesn't give you an answer. Thanks for that. Peace hanging for us, but we'll need your insight as we go along. The farmer, the farmer boy, I mean you are. You

are a guy on the field. You are a farmer. Your hands are quote unquote in the soil. You are the in the sector that has the largest contributors to economy by an employment and also by share of GDP. What's your take on this? I see you have lots of fun of farm equipment from the US. You have johned the attractors. Do you want a stronger era or do you want to be canna affect? Howould you affect on business?

Yeah? Thanks Carl. First and from damage said, you know, I'm not an economious not in financials, but I may not be able to speaking um most of the daytimes. Butts just in the bay Man way of what I felt about them. For me, I'm not really bothered about we got a stronger era and to say oh bo, this is just me um. I think our population the loan should be something of pride, something we can easily walk around with. In terms of production productivity, you know,

there are some things you don't need to manage. I usually listening a normal business person cannot come to anterior function property because everything about our economy seems to be parted. Nothing is moving straights. You understand, in a situation whereby the the people who don't have access to the government are getting the dollars one week, the other who has the money are getting at rig there was a time we are having an argument and somebody was talking about and partyize and he

was mentioning. Dangley was mentioning where those guys. I said, see, guys, some of the total actors this guy out together. They don't want who have two hundred thousand actors of land. So it's what they what they're doing is very very minute too. Men need to focus on this small scale farmer. And when I'm talking about this small scale farmer, you see will when people plain statistics so up, they say, well, then there is the largest producer on this. I said, at what reads, we are

just largest. When it comes to the numbers of vectors, we are cultivated, but when it comes to value, we are nothing. You understand the d D D D abrege you of, let's say, and amazing and the exig on one point five one on one Tom per Hector. We as people are meeting clothes to like ten tons, twelve tones, fifteen tons in another country. What I'm saying in the sense that by the time we focus, as I said, I'm not any from less, say from install as a

farmer um or arm of the opinion on the sea. Small scale farmer need to be later than one location. Probably you have one LETTI you have to actors and you summ up up to up to hundred the actors. Government provides long time non facility to a mechanization outfit that can go to these people help them do their program. You are you are providing through service. You are making their work very easy for them. You are increasing your productivity, then

the yield will also increase. But you have a local testing a bound that you you have a lot to talk about the export. But we are just like you know, when government wants to put their interventions and to people, for me, I always send. Then their government creates intervention by saying they want to solve one problem and create about three problems. Understand So for me, either weakness from nobody should even be defending the letist and let your economy

defend whatever it's going to defend your production. That will determine how your na or do you That's someone I'm saying we look like but but we consume everything. Yeah. Take for instance, casserver Nangila is one of the largest carserver producers over but we even make any impact when it comes to the global market of canserbartistic because we we It is that that we consume everything and waste the rest. Some probably true your Andrew, I saw somebody was packaging a bat

in a carton. I were like, wow, looking beautiful idea. These are the kind of things that kind of person producing a bat packaging its two things. Government need to look at that kind of person, investments that kind of play. You provide what you need to provide for that kind of person, because one need to help us all the ways to having caserver. Somebody

is there to mop it up rather than jump throwing up money. If you look at even decibing what is called statistic a bad money then gets to farmer. It's sometimes I laugh, Yeah, it's gonna it's it's it's been lothing. Yeah, judge trust it. For instance, you said you give somebody and under a social amount of money to one cultivate ten thousand actors of Rise. Then the question I asked is which works in the whole of the country. I can't say it anyway, Nigeria. We do not have a single

mechanization company that can handle mechanization successfully. Just two thousand actors. Then outcome we are giving one and it means you just give this money, justed this money still whatever you can still and waste the rest understand they need to restarted that look at where they're putting all this intervention, so that if I don't want to have stronger for me, I don't even care anybody. Just make

the economy walk and did this system work so that it defends itself. From my lemit, I believe that whatever we are in sporting out, we determine the kind of currents, how strong then is for me? That is what I like them from You've spoken like an economist if I answered the question when we export that determines the economic Value've done that, so I think that is really a good answer to the question. Right, You've made the point by

productivity, and I agree with you. When you export the water will find this level. That's what I so, I think you made an economic post there. Thank you hanging with us. Let me get the digital and Kenny on the score birthday, the regular right, the jelly McGan, you've got the plaster. Hey your audious kind of no go ahead okay first let me, yeah, go ahead, I can hear, yeah, go ahead, go okay, thank you. So me, I'm students and lately I've been

making profit over for experising. You see, so I've I've been following the market of the of the foreign currency like you and dollars. So what I can see is that listening to listen to what you see, like if the lower the currency or get it higher, what you can you can change me.

I just I can just advise that you keep your currency lower actually to get to to get linked, to get strong linked with partners, because the USC are stop using all your as energy U see, so to be fixed to do Nigeria economy based on over over exchange over kids too, you got to keep lower your appurrencs to that in fact, and get plenty of part partners a part of all your So when you will stop using all your UGA partners and then you get high your currency and then you make you see some

profit about or the So I want you to get strong links with partners for now, but for me, it's like keeping your currency and then after when the staff when all your production does not make the lot of profit you get, you get your your currency higher. To the things I'm not sure to understand when you say keep currency lower, I suspect you are saying keep the

currency strong. Is that lower or is that currency is weak. I just want to I'm sorry, okay, okay, the problems which week, Okay, so you want to and then you keep it strong, okay, So keep it, keep it weak for now, and then once when we can

then use a commodity like oil to make the currency become stronger. When the market, when the US or the EU guys leave the floor and there's more demand for oil, we export more oil and then we'll right like so now they're they're still using oil, but they talk about easy station for the car like they're gonna they're gonna use electric car to the station. Gonna be easy. Stuff like that too. It won't have no oil markets. No more

has a c It's about twenty twenty five or twenty thirty. So for now, you sell the oil and you you get you keep your crency which selling oil. And when you when there's no oil markets, but you got partners abuts buying cassaver, buying protein, buy other stuff as as every cost as ghana as but you see your partnership bring you still like they still got your money. Like the I hear you, I hear you well said, even you're you're communicating, trust me, you're communicating. I hear you. Thanks

for that. I do get your point and linking it to crude oil and commodities. Good point for Extrador. What you're brave man, You're a very brief guy. Right, Okay, we'll go bright it beto you bright jump in there. Then E wants us to trade with currencies that I would I would affect the value Denira the more we export crude oil and then market that is shrinking. He feel that would make the currency denier stronger. What's your take? Do we need the strong Narror? Do we need a weak niror

should value of defend? What's your ti value? The more Korea chore economy number tending in the world. So gretful one thousand, three hundred for something you are one dollars a thousand three on them something for gress what they are number saying in the world. So that tell me from my little experience, that's look forget about this, Nara must do one to one dollars at the end of the day when you make your countries um because everybody was the Nagia

is the last country. Nagia is the large market. I've heard you in self, right, Economy, He wanted to come to the Ageria or you see like we see the way trying to do things kind of make able cheaper, you make those labor India have talk that tired, not as I want to names. I want to talk that the tip Thani. So what uplands you are from making our own countries becoming the hope because if you put a dollar to a thousand narah, it donar to a thousand And what it means

is that those things that are very important to the interior. Both says that are saying market too Pania, they will have no choice for Componentia. And let me tell you this new build that was signed that allows the state to generate a LEEP on their own. It's another it's think it's a big bread through because what it means is that investors we want to come and invest one product that one meaning you're left asset. And secondly, we need to work

on our process you. Secondly, you know what I'm saying. If you're going to get a license for you to mind in anterior and you're going to get the same license to mind a Ghana or Sar Africa or Potuana, you know that those people will have giving you license in not less than two three months or get one year Nigeria to take more than a year or two for you to get this license. Right, so if you if you do if you see the thing, if you receive those threads or you could get license

or you to get registered. For instance, even if you want to do online my cooking mans for need to have the line is from ev it's not something you can done in the one that can't be done in one point. These the processes we need to let three and they put the money more in the small micro businesses. See people are saying that you guys don't produce its

producing the times were using in anterior. The pain the problem in materials that were using their home being made in anteria because nobody want importing the consigner. I have seen Chinese company who have moved their time company from their country from an interior. I have seen company who don't think you know the country the Modi fact people Angulia. So what we need to do is to ride on those things. If our currency is the value. The more they have no

toys, youve got their market yet and they put more money. For instance, the things that all they completely from manufacture perhaps crep them zero to for them to bring them in, which means that for them to buy those matter you are to want. We don't have a na to producing that you get those in at zero import right if they get a zero important on the production.

And honestly, our packaging industries in the sport we need to start to want to say our our patibute in the firstance, our our being, our our corn to be important. We need to start in producing europe Can standard. So when you keep this thing from that, you have to do the womb be con bat that can manage this one. People do do the things. You will not love your money, your first first light, first light,

and you can't say you have a lot of great ideas there. I think the main point that you said that which you highlight again is that you mentioned this South Korean exchange rate, and you put that South kore and exchange rate together with the value with the with the export and the south of the economy, making the point that it's not the exchange number itself that is important

is the earnings, the productivity, the GDP per capital. Even with the South Korean currency being very weak, the average South Korean is way richer in Nigeria. So currency exchange is a strategy too for the economy. You simplicie you wants a week on a strong era, it has got to be part of a strategy. That's the key point you made around to highlights yes, yes, and then you think I hear you, I hear you, yeah yeah, and this first pot you An example it might be when you electrical

manufactured or did nothing. Uhhh you nothing and that was not not and the football guy give this guy but dollar back up, put your potm and lead your That means that you're gonna compon position so well that those guys, those guys were able to use that money. Okay, I got you first. First, I got you. Let let me get let me get woo me in here to hear what wore me or more loua b stake its own water? How you I cannot thank you. I just wanted to ask mister first

lights and questions, eagin know what it yourself right now? So in my own understanding, if you want to compare the Enginia and South Korea in terms of you can currency, I think first, which is first of all, understand the people you know. At the same time, I just want talking on something I listen to. Want to ask the question if you first of all understand what the people are in South Korea. I think most of them are you know, most of them into business. But we the injurers.

The main reason why most people are japan or giving the country is not necessary because they are better opportunity. Is because of the currency. Its because people like Okay, wander like is some fifty and outfred the injury and japer And because okay wander by some fifty, whatever I'm making me more, you know, is whatever a banker ife to go to a or us to work as

a cleaner. Because at the end of the day, I'm gonna ENLiGHT two thousand dollars from thing like you know, that is my one year surviving an engineer. So how can we balance that thought of being the engineer as richolse to develop our currency, but that thought as being an engineer the rather japer to us be a cleaner because of dollars every month, and two thousand dollars every month in engineer is a lot of money because you have a bigger currency,

and that is the reason why we have mass um jackper relocation. So how can devalue never bigger currency helppots. In that aspect, currency r the kind of people, like I said, it's about the mindset of the people. If one era is, of course one dollar, people would rather go to us and work as a cleaner, a banker in the engineer. I hear you look at this with with me let me well, let me see that a stepd right. If you make your currency strong, you want to

make it say one nera to one dollar. Right, You are right that naguriors become artificially rich. That's what happened in nineteen six, nineteen seventies. You had Niger, say, good old days where one geisha was ten cobbo, where one pick ten milk was ten coobbo. Those were the good old days. But we were only getting those prices because we were taking all our innings from crude oil to import all those things. If you make one error

one dollar, then you are killing local essames. Why would I buy ras my back laky when is the same price as Uncle Ben's rise. Why would I buy innocinca one I can buy rolls Royce Inno Synca is ten thousand dollars, where I can buy a continent Cardillac for ten thous dollars, why would I buy innocent? So the currency if you make Niger currency strong, I would import. Why South Korea can make that they are one that's a currency

at thousands. It's because some song howing Die are also South Korea, but at the same quality as Ford. You can buy Hanging Die in South Korea is the same quality or better than the Ford our GM, so they don't have to import from the US. When you make your currencies strong, you are subsidizing imports. So when I just say, good old days in the seventies were importing everything. We had, rice and murder, cement and murder

in legals. They're grown of flood, so many ships. But when nintially to SAP structu Adjustment program was to take us from this import and consume, to produce locally and consume. That's what's supposed to have done till today. If we had done that, if we had an innocent all these guys see hanging that you see, they were all innocence. Ten year, twenty years ago, Sonny was making rice cooker. Sonny rice cooker, that's what they

were making. And they've gone from brass cooker to what they are today Taiwan, those chip comes amount to world beaters. They were government owned companies. As we say, government funded companies set up to just assemble chips. You can't do that. If it is cheaper to import, nobody will by local products. Does that make sense for me? Oh, yes, that makes

sense. But at the same time, I'm trying to balance that this is the reality of our bread engineer and they are a reality of average black you know Korea, I return nobility, but also because it's worth for those in Korea or Koreans, does mean it's going to work for the black or engineer, you know. Like I mentioned, the reality is overal engineer rather even

as cheap, as cheaper. I've seen a blogger of the state of great value products from googlema I mean great value product is so inferior time who go to woman and get a great d because you know, it's very very inferial and someone decided to have you know, over fifty products of great value like chili pepper changer. Farther like, these are things that come from wound in engine I will engineering. I'm not compared with being black our mentality of I'm

not trying to insult our skin. But you understand that our mentality of being black compared to those people elect more for those in Korea, but my normal for those in Nigeria and that dimension. If we decide to make our currency with which are Ninjurians that I know they are not more thinking about. Okay, I can make opportunity, but they're not been thinking about our other being. You West working as a cleaner, because at the end of the day,

I'm gonna get two thousand dollars. If one dollar in support to one one dollars support to one thousand thania, I think that is the average mindset of being of blacks. Okay, women, women, Let's go back in history. Nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty five, Nigerians were richard than the South Koreans, the Chinese, the Taiwanese, the singapore the Indians, Nigerians, the black Nigerians original all these people. So when you say so, hold on, hold on, we mean so when you say the black business.

But the fact is that when Nigeria was working, we're reaching on all of them, all of them South Korea, We're reaching them and we have no excuse that they were They have nutural rule. We have nurtury rule. They had culs, we had cus. The same thing they had there we had here. But we were reaching on them. Nigerians were reaching in the Chinese as at nineteen seventy two, three four. The Chinese came here to look at overhead bridges to build in China. Fact, but look at today.

So it's not the up to only eighties. It's not. It's not. It's no use of black. It's leadership, no structure. We lost our way. They continue spend on education, were building first tack. You know. So it's a lot that they've done well. We haven't done well. I get the point you are making. You had to do be black. It's the people. Yes, it's the leadership, the part will have chosen.

No, they spent Look at how you that. I give you a story about Hyinda when the Korean their military president Park he called the guys from Hyindai. There was a family. This was their version of said Dan Grote. He called them and said, listen, all of you. As long as you guys bring your money back to Korea, I won't prosecute you. So if you've stolen money in the past, I don't care. But if you bring money back to Korea instead of a companying Korea, I won't prosecute

you. That's how these Channelbels all started the group together and he allowed them. He called the founder of Hyindai and told the guy. He said, go I started making ships. Hyinda had never made ships in their life. The advanced this long story, but they went and they made ships. They went to Scotland, brought the expertise and started to make one or two ships. Today, South Korea is one of the No. One or two the largest ship builders in the entire world. The same Niger could have done.

This is this same country where we find crude oil. We built at swift artibility vehicles during the quote unquote Civil War? Why didn't we continue with that industry? If we had continued to make arms from nineteensey seven till today, would have been like Russia exporting arms, or even Korea, or even um Canada or even Turkey exporting arms. As a business point in Niger has when we stop ships and planes flying at ninety Nigeria because of the civil war.

So I hear you with me, You're you're beautiful and another. But I think the point is that the structure of the country is the big promote these individuals. But the structure linking Lincoln sensors to two positions of power to fuck to land use at the structure is the problem in Nigenerally the people. The people are wonderfully visit that nagers alone they will make Niger the largest and best any community whole world. It's the structure, the leadership that has been put

there that's put back. Daniel's got to flow. What's up with Daniel Wills? What's your mind? Yeah, a good day, mister Carlog. How are you doing. I'm very well, so very well. You've got to flow, go for it. Yeah, okay, I think I'll start with I don't know how we got to a place where we think the strength of our nira reflects the strength of our economy. It's a myth, right it, Yes, I think that's where it started from. So because of that,

our niro now started having a political value. So the government wants to defend. The government wants to make it strong because that with send a message to the citizens that they are doing well. So they want to do everything to keep it strong, artificially strong right now, But the true is this um ecurrence will always find this level right, depends on your balance of trade right, and when you keep it at tificially strong, it becomes over valued.

When it is over value, do not have a deeper and a wider black market? True? Now, the black market not determines we are put in your economy. So your black market shakes, I go to the market, there's inflation. What are now does again is that you are not created rent. Your created poot for some people for around tripping because the gap between your official and the black market rate is so wide that if I can get at tiber rate, I know you will use it to imput adlst around trip

and I make eighty two seven five percent spread. So you have created food for some people. Now, those that know that your money, your currency is over valued, you are poltic college dr because it cannot bring money in. Those that are also making even exporting right, they rather divert your export proceeds because why should I exchang that for and something I do that gets it at seven months around something from the black market, So you are also limited

supply. And another thing because of what is arming the black market, we applso created speculators out of an average Nigeria. Everybody has too scary accounts. You know, everybody wants to keep your money in dollars because it's a better store value. Right, so you for the drive of the demand for dollars thereby deeply the black markets. So when you look at those, you are just creating a quack where you're just creating elaborate for yourself. So what you

we do, Let let us leave it. Let's the man can't determine they value maybe to just go up, you know a bit. But you are going to increase supply because when people know the true value, people can bring in their money and set up factors. People that are exporting, we're bringing their export proceeds. You increase supply. Then with that make your pots, don't make your pots, you know primarily a revenue generating of make it and

export facilitating. So when you're looking at your pots, you're not you're not measuring the performance of your pot by oh we've made to those one so know what have moved out, visit to move things as you know about that me and you will not even know what is happening with our extemp real life is because wrong you know, because most of what I need to buy, most of what I need to run my life on't what I need to maintain a

b standard of you I can't get within the country. So you know, you know an economy where everybody is fixated on the extinct with there's something wrong and that is because most of us now annown speculators. What are like Donald, everybody in a done accounts and the account is not because you are using it to trade. I'm using it as a start of value because I have lost confidence in IRA. I don't think we think we need to depend.

Let's you know, letting fruits. This political value must end, our extend, real must not to be for political signals. Thank you, Daniel Burn. You have broken this thing down like a like a lecturer. You took us the step by step. You know how it takes us to be, how details to see. I completely like the puntment about the parts not just being referenced as revenue endings, but also as what it's going out right, because I see part of Los Angeles they will tell and your true puts,

they will tell you counted us came in. Also they took counted us went out. These names that customs always saying their record or we made two billion last year, we've made for blood this year. If you take out inflation, they've made zero. They've made less if you factor that two inclasial. But as a defend batter entirely, it's a good pointry making. We're all speculators. We all have doble double account. Every day is doll like going up. The question I got to buy or buying df dovorces what I do

by dollars? You're going to go up, it's going to come down? We don't know because we don't know what the new government will do and what the government will do determined I will go up or down. Nobody can tell you if don't that's going to go up or that. We can say with antesidents, we can look at some data and say huh. Bloomberg already has said that. The that the President in comment, Yeah, by the value, it's a no brainer. There's no body now the four reserves we have

cannot maintain the exchange rate of less than five hundred dira. It's a no brainer. There is no way Nigeria with less than forty billion can maintain an exchange rate of five hundred nar. Sibian has tried it and it has led to nearly eight hundred million in or limited refunds to the airlines. So the question for you is just what is your faul reserves? Number one? Number two? How is the oil seals going? Right now, we're back to the issue where we have no oil seals. We had it been in the

past a year ago. They seem to have stopped it. Now it's gone back. It's the last mute looting. Everybody's looting now before the new guys come in maybe and they're a bit more serials. That's what's going on. So if there's no oil seals and they are the full reserves do not go up. For rexerves have not been going up, even with oil seals or diplomatter. But if there are no oil seals and fire reserves are not going up, then there is no way in hell the Nira will not be devalued.

You don't need to need to rule school to know that I want, so I will tell you for free if I commit to office day want and I'm list of Finance or CBA governor. I look at my full reserves. It is flat or falling. I look at my oil state from n NPC it is flat or falling. I give value. If I don't give value, I commit the saying that Buharia committed. Try to do capital controls to maintain the artificial value of the currency for eight years, and what we had

Nara now on the streets is seven hundred. That's what we've had. You cannot artificially the laws of man cannot solve the laws of economics. It don't happen. So that's so. I mean, I wish you just I don't know who you are, but you've I like the way you detail to point out for us. We have to get away from this or becoming speculators. Nobody in America. And when America say I wonder what the in euro is, they never bother unless you're traveling to Europe. So samething with me.

If I'm not exporting to Europe, what's my deep problem with the dollar exchange? It haising my problem if I'm not treating But good course, I like, I like like, I like that. I lost a good call, mister juve let's have mister Juviere. You're speaking, yeah, go ahead, go ahead, okay, So thank you, mister came for me. I will want to look at it from a different perspective. Right, Um, all the speakers I've spoken well, but um from my reading in the book

perspective. But I want to retract from that. You talked about South Korea. We also looked at Japan. I will go remember there was the time that Japanese products were the worst. But today I want to look at it from the point of view of the mentality of an engerence. We see that a good percentage of people have I think women or someone said something about employment and stuff. We have a lot of people who have the mentality the government

mentality. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but we have more government employing more people than the private sector, which is wrong in itself, is an It's a situation that I will class fires a new brainer. Most of these countries that are making waves so economically stable actually do have their private sector employ more people than the government. Now, most graduates we see are looking for jobs. That's the mentality we have, and it's a problem with

our educational sector and a problem, a soucietal problem. We in the nineteen sixties that you mentioned that we are richer than most of these other countries were production conscious and consumption and conscious. Presently we are more consumption conscious. True,

definitely we affect a lot of things and being important expert. True, But once we can what I want us to look at is, okay, how can we affect I'm diverting kind of, but I think if you have, if you still come back to this, if we have an economy or a people who are more entrepreneurs, right, I don't believe, I even I don't believe that the entrepreneurs stuff only belongs to lables because we remember the Grand Opera, med in the Knot and the cocoa farmers in the Southwest,

right, So everybody has the capacity to be an entrepreneur. Look at what Candle does on yearly business. How much production comes from there. Now, if we can have that mentality of entrepreneurs, then seeking for jobs even the jack parting we draw because I could remember I think I joined one of your talk shows in the past, but he talked what about the fact that unemployment right or world world will are used. I'm trying to I'm trying to get

the precise world you used, but I can't get it. But just for a phrase of what you said in that talk. If we can have the average not an can do business. Every other person can do business, not just the intern as. Everybody can do business. There's nobody that I cannot do business. But the problem now is the question is is what mentality are

we carrying. Everyone wants to leave school and get a job. If I leave school and we're looking at the job focused, then those people who chat I not live in the country, we not need to do because why there is a lot of problem all let me get back to Sorry, my thoughts came back. Now. You talked about nagerare having issues and this being the best place to run a business when they are problems. Where there are more problems is where you're running business. We are heart of the talk of the

guy who talked about the standers of the sleepers. How they look at it different directions. One person is saying, Okay, I came to a place where people do not wear shoes. I want to start the business of shoes. Another person comes down says that people don't wear shoes. There's no market for shoes here. So Nigeria has a lot of problems. And if we

can have the mentality of entpreneurs and not consumers or job seekers. I think if you go along with you affect bolder import and I resport and balance of truth will be affected positively. That's what I I think. I hear you, I hear you. I think you made some good points right again on the fact that everybody in Nigeria is a true I think naturally. I don't know if it's because Nigeria was colonized by entrepreneurs, you know, just a

unique country in West Africa. Najera was not colonized by the quote unquote cornolial government from Britain, but by a bunch of in the entrepreneurials. You know, niger was an SPV. So I don't know that's why we have this sort of mindset towards business. Everybody in Nigeria, businessman, everybody. That's why in the nineteen sixties Nigeria was a rich nation per capita, not per GDP per capita, big difference, which means that the people of Nigeria were

as rich as the country was. As rich, there was there was freedom to get well. The government was not on the way. What we have right now that you have the country of Nigeria is rich. The people of Nigeria are very poor. That's what we have because the government has come in between the people and they are blitzed to create world. You've talked about the pyramids and Cannel. Good point. Why can't the people of Carnal produce pyramids

to day? Why could the police pyramids in those days? Everyone says because of oil. It's not because of oil. It's because the government took away the incentive for the pyramids of Grammus to be created. When Canal Pyramids were existing, the state of that Kannel, the Northern Nigeria retained the earnings from ground knot exports legal states. The Western region took the revenues almost seven percent of the exports of the grand nuts, but the export earnings went back to

the Northern region. So you could see that the Northern region was very interested in making sure they had marketing boards, fertilizers, even a train from the north to legals to export the peanuts out because the money came to them. The multary boys came and put the federal government between the ground knots and the farmers. So now when the ground nuts are made, the money, there's no good to in Northern region rather it goes to a Punjab which was then

legals right. So because the state governors have no more incentive to grow the yield of ground us, they stopped wasting their time on it. Why spend my time growing yield of ground so I can wait for put Or to give

me money. That's why Grandmuts feel morally oil. But because there is no incentive for the governors for the local government chairman to get a share of that, grandn Nott let me say this way, pass the bill and say, local government chairman, any agricultural produce that is exported from your local government, the State of Niger will give you ten percent cut to your personal bank account

anywhere in the world. So if I'm local government chairman of a half year or arrow local government area, an arrow to Wu export crude oil, the government of Nigeria will pay me the individual me ten percent to any account I open in any part of the world. What do you think I will spend my time bringing an arotrico. I will spend my time using five percent of the money going will pay me to every farmer. What is your problem? You don't have Fitliza, I'll get another for you. What you don't have

who I'll get for you. We'll have irrigation. I will spend twenty seven hours out of twenty four working for every farmer into because the more the export parmoil and canserver, the more my ten percent flew to my account in the US. That's why Niger was making rubber ground mood teen cocoo. That's why the instant you tend. Look at government chairman. We're not gonna pay you ten percent anymore. Rather, I will pay you salary. That's what fuck

is. Fuck is salary. Will pay you salary for my buja. Why should I go to buy a pharmacy and nabbia analrotical. I'll sink you wait and leary the farmacy and go to court. They don't like it because there's no incentive for me anymore. That's the structure we talk about in my day that you have to remove. If you don't remove the government standing between the farmers and income, go anywhere, you won't go anywhere. Mister ik you've got the flaws that what's happening, Malcolm X. Yeah, I'm good,

good um, Thanks for giving me the mic Um. Well, I've been listening and it's been quite educative. Um, the ID the wader put jobs, so the same most of things I would have loved to see. My real point is I'm not becalming about the policy person. So the happy side the policies so char work. Of course he has to crow and grow his boss and most before he could eventually walk. So I think the most important in for us now is that recartive ink or lass in Nigeria. So we

have to solve that the repeaty problem. People should be able to break in their capital and take you out. And then going further from that, we have to then organize the NIGERIAUS society and then begin to have policy around effectiveness. Court saving an organization of Nagal society and they want to have policy around education, adult education and being some research and that. So because you have

a population worthy percent can already arrived. And then having an economy that is not going more towards e commerce if you can more post items safely, if you can more deliver it the safety until you solve these most more problems and then want you to economy liberalize the invest market. So the small problem that we have in our government call at least organizing nan general post office, organizing our schools make people can read and write. Um do all these most small

politicians that organize the economy general. Then you can start talking about whether you want to defend the denial or not defending that. I think that statements making correct or those langerent lent met only two things. We export poen and we export talents. Those are our two biggest source of effects school hard those devaluing or multi value affect those teachings doesn't really affect it. It doesn't. So he's not where man countries are who use anything I don't know for problising entity.

But okay, people say this is one we don't produce anything. We produce nigients. The Philippines praise a lot of Philippines all over the world. Yeah, and they two things that does a major exports talents talent. Yes, okay, if if I don't see hi, that's going to impact that much nobody. It's the biggest impact. If let me use an example, a Mecca is not it's America. He wants to send money to his mother,

Mamma and Mecca in our in a half year. If dollar, if dollar is one to one, America has to get a hundred dollars to send to my Meca. He has to get a one hundred dollars. But if dollars one dollar to fifty, then he just needs less than one hundred dollars. He can send her ten dollars, which he has. When you make the Narra weaker, Amica sends more dollars home. That's why when the Nara

the values, more remittances flow. If the Nira is stronger, there's less remittances direct do we rely know ever a dollar or all is over valued? But we know we know because when you want to buy your g sam phone, you want to pay for for Google, you want to pay for all this is that are priced in dollars, you pay more than if you paid last year. If you want to buy its some song phone today, do you pay less or more the price of the phone. The price of an

Apple phone does not go. Apple is almost the same in dollars, not in dollars. Because of the wizard means. Now, if you get pretty no, don't don't. Don't I get ways, but don't confuse everything wisdom

means is the government borrowing. That's the pay matter from the exchange with what we're saying, is this right right if the central bank sets exchange, not the governor the federal government in the Central Bank of Nigeria says we want to make one era today seven hundred to day is officially not affects official lessons. Five on the officially, if it's a five hundred and Mecca in Houston might want to build a house in his village, so he needs five dollars to

get five five. If you make it one thousand America, this will send more dollars because it gets more Nigher in Nigeria to be this house no healthier. That's the whole idea. I get that. I get that a lot of sense. What I'm saying again is this at this point in time Nigeria, we don't even have this. The efface market is not the prized No, we have some more issue getting the effects. So you need to solve the problem and then look at how the market be to them defending and more

defending. That makes sense for for the columny going forward. So we need to solve that major problem of saying this important neck of getting out of Nigeria. If we're able to solve that problem, don't then look at then till me which way forward we need to. I'm gonna li inbarrassment vessel. But understand the point we're making right. The problem in Nigeria is that you have an official at official rate. I'm official at a ficial rate. Did the

exchange of five it's it's at a ficial That's why there's no dollar. There's dollar in Nigeria. The domar account nager is nearly twenty billion dollars dom account, but it's not in the CYBN. There's dollar in Nigeria, but the dollar is not in the cyban. And the Cibian will not get dollar because it is trying to buy dollar at five hundred in the CBIM today says I

will buy dollar at seven hundred. Dollar will be plenty everywhere. The irony is this, if you make the Nina weaker, the Nina will get stronger. But if you make Nina stronger, the Nara will get weaker. That's what I'm saying. This is no he can want, he can let me. I think you see what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the fourth step actually is for the scipient to remove their chicia rate, liberalize market. That we who can actually assess dollar easily. Hence you're saying the value

right, So you're saying the value. That's what you're saying. The value. I'm saying, go you forward. Now you don't have to design policies that would tackle our fundamental problem, so that we'll not begin to study if it favors us to defend Nara in the future or to devalue Nara in the future, or at the moment forcing that the government is that are coming to place away split the government before the end of the four focal end of June's

actuardly to to take out that chiciall rate. Let's say, for instance, there's a company I work for, you know, and they are depictures importers of making agila, parab making angila, and at some point all their resources were tracting an agilia. They couldn't get dollar to import make started going through their sister it is South Africa, through going through Camma, of course, if you remember before really very good. At some point they had to start

selling gold. So it's crazy with the thing change at the moment is doing a lot of that. To be happy to look at it in the future, to know who tually favors you. You're not happening, You're yeah. I wanted to add or not get interesting conversation again, but I also wanted to look at the fact that we also need to look at implication of leaving the start to school as an ASTI is like if you look at Q one

results for example UM and Toth Africa, they are fiscal. Yeah that I ended match it lost it to another US in the exposure and entire just because of our currency. The love come from Naja Brewis and things like that. So it tells you that our market is in efficience it works for business.

A second be also need to look at what happens to Pan too. That's why the fact that allowed their currency to be a peer market with more market driven but we saw that this kind sipping and developed a leverage that You're right, it seems to be a pity human because we are a paper and we have the aspora that to really campaign money. But we also need to look at time is running out, the cost of growing is going up. Treasury PEWS is giving us a US strategy for the average for an investor to invest

in our market. And also with all these programmers in our mine. I want to ask you a question because you know based on things that I mean, and that's where my peer is coming from. You know it's very likely to CPN governor doesn't remain an office, but the appointment very likely he's gone put the department. Margin is that the market needs something of the deputy.

He needs to some stand. But when you have the postical appointee plubly nomittance for recipient, it makes it use fires around your group because you know positical appointments an the institutional themmunity will compromise and pay. So I want to ask that how do you see the world advice you can present seen taking the phos six months knowing through the whether yes we have to the value, but other issues like marketing efficiency removing from me and showing the banks, like using a

narrow card in taking the time be happy. You could use the Anara cards abroad, but because of the currency every subcestimes there's a quote that just some big city and standard check that allows you to use to eddos and again star Chackle has removed it. So I want to ask what do you think replications are you see the honest you limited? Is this right? The nation is broke. The only thing that's keeping Nigeria afloat today are the remittances coming from

the Nigents abroad, not even trade. The trade is warbly. We've seen the oil revenues almost go back now to zero because the insecurity, the exports, the VAT and all that. It looking good, but the inflation is twenty two percent. So whatever we are getting this year is twenty two percent less. I inflated away right, so at the cost of government. I've been growing up. So in terms of the FOEX side, the country is

broke. If you take away the remittances, then we are nil. If you are a president that comes in, the way you get remittances up is to attract them, so you devalue. You even allow crypto. Are saying in an aby, you know, should we say regulated manner? You can say, okay, you can do remittances via crypto to the federal government or something like that. So that way, even if it's just by messaging, you are singing that there's a new sheriff in town that is more open to

market reforms that would bring more confidence. What I'm looking for is that word confidence. You have to very quickly introduce confidence to the market that the guys that bringing portfolio investments can see that Nigeria is a place where you can put money minutes for three months, make some money and take it out. You are right to point the fact that in America today, these safe investments are paying you five percent per annum on a certificate of deposit that is FDIC insured.

When Nigeria issued the eight point five percent bill for thirty years, that was a very very high paying instrument in America. Then rate were from zero to two percent. Now America is paying five percent, so the premium is three percent. Why would I a risk three percent and invest in Nigeria when I can do five percent in safe America. So because that risk window is closing, is becoming more difficult for Nigeria to get money. So if you're

the next president, you have got to appoint someone. You have to I said the tweet, you have to look for someone that is both or Condre Weller and Shaddya do combine together in name that people will see shady and or Condre a weller. It doesn't have to be an economist. You don't have to have an economist. As a Serbian governor or a Minister of Finance.

You need an internationally respected person. I can come and say Nigeria has done rubbish in the past, but going forward, I'm going to be independent and are going to work to fix this mess. Ganner collapsed in less than six months. Less than six months. As at April twenty twenty one, Ganner issued a bond. That bond was over subscribed by one hundred percent. They offered three billion, they got six billion April twenty twenty one. By February

twenty twenty two, their bonds were down graded to junk. So the economy of a nation can collapse in twenty four hours because we now have this international flow of funds. It can happen in Niger. That would Niger wake up and people just say we've had enough. Were Dona got bern and Duran bonds were going into Niger, Nina will collapse or the reverse can happen. People

will say, we like the policies of this new president. Hence we're going to take a bet that Nigeria is going to be the next giant in the next ten years and the wind flow on into Nigeria. You only get that done when you appoint a cabinet and a finance and the Sbian governor. So you see what policy is over. You know we're done with politics. Right.

My advice to the whoever is going to be incoming, my advice to use this Remove all those people in your government that would attract any political noise. All those clowns in your government now that are doing fighting with people on Twitter posting to politics. Leave all of them in the desert of Namibia. Leave them there and appoint a national government of unity with technocrats and respected economies.

There are people that when they see if you are appoint some people as your Cbian governor, even people I don't like you, be like this man wants to work. Let me tell you you're let's go political. The region of the country where you're going to have the biggest problem today, and I'm talking to the incoming guy, right, it's a southeast of Nteria. The

Southeast of Najua do not hate anybody. They want to do business. The present president to Harry, appointed the Southeast person twice as VP and did not vote for him. The South is voted for a Northerner, a Westerner. Those guys are not entrusted in who is the president. They're interested in competence and they do trade, they do remittances. When you bring out a government that signals that I am here for business, I am here for productivity,

I am here to create wealth for Nigerians, they will reciprocate. You don't need to go and do I will build you bridge. I will be known. They will reciprocate and they will follow you. I'm saying, these old people are going to attack me, So focus on getting the confidence of Nigerians immediately. Then the international community will follow. Don't do they leave all those and I'm condemned clowns behind the ones that are going to cause all the same

make or is comment about tribe, ethnicity and religion. Leave them alone. You have a big war coming for you. They've devalued your currency. They've loaded you up with thirty one trillion in debt. This is just ways and means. They have loaded you up in such a matter that you cannot even You have no revenues. All your revenues have been eaten up by interest payments, not even salary interest payments. You have no color revenues. They stay

in the oil natural delta. So when you enter office today, you are going to be and taking an office that is broke, so you don't have time for nonsense. You want to get in and you want to start working. You need a government of national unity reach out to everyone, not by appointing people into office, but by creating policies that signal to every Nigerian that I am here to do business, I am here to create wealth and the

nission will reciprocate. That's my takele. If you like, go and puts that one that says I don't know, Um okay, okay, you've got the flaw, sir, go ahead, okay, um good even yeah, my just my my little question, um, is this because when when okay, if we value neira because I'm a kind of businessman, you know can okay, So if you cannot the value the neira, you know, something that we used to purchase or something that we used to purchase one more five

hundred na we now become one thousand, for instance, I think, okay, something like that. Correct, then okay, But what I'm asking you know that if he starts, people will not be happy. People will not feel feel that's happy, true, because I do know for now things that we used to say fifteen n and now we used to say this like like now one fifty two hundred and so now if people start buying things as far that thing that we used to say that fifteen and how we people react as

of the moment. You know that so many people, so many people are able to know that that the value that the word that are buying now what are buying them? This multipa what are buying now? So I don't I don't. I don't think that maybe easy that we if we devalue it now, then that they don't grow then and then the second thing, yea before you look at before you look at production or a look at products enters the

market like this is very very hard than all this for them products. So some other people, I don't know if we are going to change your intation of our people then they talked to him. If they devalue doubt, I hope that they will increase the government. We also increase the salary of the work has Because if you're Okayan, I want you to stay back and I want to write this question. I want to answer three of them that are very very good questions, are real, real day to day questions. So

so remember the order to your first questions. You're asking that when we devalid Nira, right, you are asking that the prices are going to go up. Okay, so prices are gonna go up. So what's gonna happen? So okay, can remember that economics is like a cycle. Let's take a bad shoes. Let's take shoes made a number before in the nineteen seventies, there was no a bad shoes. Were import all our shoes from Italy, you know now because it's a part the utlip. Shoes are cheap. When

the Nira got divalid in nineteen seventy, what happened to Italian shoes? Their price went up because we devalid Nira, So we need more Nira to buy Italian shoes. So now nobody in our BA can buy Italian shoes anymore. They're expensive. So what happened? What happened? Aba shoes then came so what to happen? We are forced to start buying the so what they what happened? Now they have to go to Carnal and get canal leather. Then

they went to a do and got a do gum, you know. Then they went to Abba and they start to stake those lookal shoes that were very very bad quality then. But over the years Aba shoes and are looking like Italian shoes now because they were able, they were forced to buy the local ones and make it, you know, good to start to wear. Right, that's the cycle of economics. When the import become expensive, it creates an opportunity for a substitute to come to the market to replace that expensive import.

Because if you don't do it this way, Abas shoes can never ever compute to Italian shoes. Never. So over time now Abba shoes are now cheaper than Italian shoes and your quality has also gone up in price. So that's what will happen when you devalue. You have to remember your You have to tie the value to trade. If you simply devalue for the valuing sake, you are making people to suffer. But if you say you want to devalue so that Abbas shoes will become cheaper and people will start to buy a

Ba shoes, you don't have to burn it all your shoes. Nobody will buy it. It's expensive, so the market will flow to Aba. What else will happen? Trade of leather from Canal to Aba will go up. You are creating jobs. Trade of gum from a door to aba will go up. You are creating jobs. Tax revenues will go up because as you're doing leather, you are paying tax in Nigeria. That's why the valuation is an advantage. But people look at only the So do you get the point

of making Yeah, yes, I got to open clearing. Now, then why government taking time to do all these things? Because the government is because the government does not do devolution Nigeria as a strategy. They are devaluing because they don't have money to pay the airlines, so they devalue in quote not just and they don't have money. So when they devalue, they're able to get more nigher per dollars. That's all they're interested in. They're not devoluing

because they want to link industries together to make the economy grow. They are not devoling as a strategy but as a response. So look at it this word. Okay, okay kay. When you sell one million barrels of crude oil, you get say, let's say you get one million dollars that womenon dollars is seven is five hundred million Nier to Nigeria officially. What if what if your oil sales have are now being bunkered, you cannot sell oil again?

What do you do if you're no longer selling womnn barrels? You're listening five hundreon barrels you devalue, so they are five hundreds dolon barrels. If you're devoue nira, you get this same five one million nira because you're devalued on your nira. That is devalued as a response, not as a strategy. The Chinese are devaluing as a strategy to export, same as the Vietnamese,

but we are not. That's why you see the war alie that once one pole said the valid, they hit it because to them means prices going up. But if prices of cars go up so that innocent can make cars in Nigeria are cheaper, nobody will complain. If price of textiles go up so that they cannot textiles can make textiles cheap, and nobody who complain creat

Does that make sense? Yes, it makes perfect. Second, as the second question said, there are good questions, and so the second question what you're asking about If you don't remember that you asked me, I lost,

I lost my line of thoughts. But this place on please I want you to answer you also, then you know I seeing them Some of my friends travel our travels to to to to west down where because of this money issue, because they want a situation whereby when they make money, they when they arrive dis place they have a lot of money to do things they want to

do. Yeah, so I don't know. I don't know where. Maybe our mentality I have not changed, and maybe or is in a system of education I have not changed to make use to see reasons towards production more than we are we can find job so well, good question again again remember right, if you look at the there's a chatter they published in the US where they talk about the richest Americans by what they do the richest people in any economy at the business owners, then the middle class, then they employed.

The primary Nigeria is that it is very difficult to have a job trying to build a business in Nigeria. Let's take a can we all grew up writing they can do in the east, right? Can you imagine what it will take to create an account of Juggal today with the bad road, expensive diesel, police on the road and all that insecurity, So it's a lot of problem to have a business in Nigeria. It is cheaper, I know.

I argue this point. It's a bad point to just take your money and buy federal government bonds and make ten percent than creating the buliness in Nigeria. Whenever the risk perit of any country is very, very high, it's not good because that means that entrepreneurs don't have an incentive to invest in the real economy. So you're first going to America. They are actually they're actually reacting in a smart way. Why working Nigeria when you can do the same working

on America. Get the same dollar, bring to Nigeria and build a house. It's not just the money, the opportunity in America. I give you example. In America, I take five percent of money and buy a house. If the house is working hundred Nina, I can buy the house with five dollars. Then I go to the low bank and take a loan with that same house and take the money from that loan to Nigeria, buy land, build house, sell the house, go back to America and pay for

the loan. Why because they have the structure in America to do that not in Nigeria. So people go to America because they are more opportunities. When I'm in America, I mean that, Jack Baying. That's the problem. If if the country wants to keep its young people who create opportunities and people will stay. Nobody wants to come here to America. It's called they don't have pepper. They don't have it. They don't have it. What's it

called the abacher in America. So everybody wants stay in Nigeria, but you can't stay in Nigeria. If they're no jobs. They're no jobs to Nigeria. If the government, for me, if the government is wise, If a government wants to be wise, they should. I don't know what they should listen to. This Eastern people I don't want, don't don't put us in trouble. Okay, I don't think it's sad. Okay, let me

let me just I don't want to enter trouble. Let me tell you, Okay, every nine Jeri and every niger An economist, every nagent, said trader, every Nigerian knows what to do. We just have a government that does not listen. Like you said, it's not Southeast. If you go to Carno legesture. You will see traders for centuries making money. But somehow with Najaza has allowed the government to come between the people and business. That we've not changed when we when we get there, when we start to link

the government to our personal pockets, maybe will change. I've got a busy Sharbo. How are you say? I don't know if you found out CEO a busy shari BUTU investments how are you say? Did you do? You've got the floor going once a busy es, a busy sets abuses. I've got damilad Lola, the carls. How are you so that's a nice picture over there? So once maybe discussed from this topical valuation, it's a it's

a broad stroke approach as opposed small. I think the previous picatus now spoke about plan um using devolution and strategy, but devolution as a as a strategy more it's more the broad stroke approach because so instead of us targeting more like we're trying to encourage the example of the leather production or shoe production and nager instead of basically certain trade in port or basically increasing import levels for shoes,

and then we choose to devalue the entire era as opposed to targeting specific intries and trying to encourage those industries to grow within the within the country. That's the most specific approach, rather than putting the entire economy or at least the entire economy on the general stress, as opposed to just gets an individual industry that wants to grow. For example, let's say would like to increase the

production of innocence. Why don't you just simply target this important levels that comments of important cards into into the country. Thereby we specifically targets increasing the price of important cards. That's something I think most of our economies use. Trump used it during the during the trade war with China, targeting specific industry rather

than just targets in the entire broad broad stroke right approastro approa. It makes more sense to use more precise approaches rather than just using the evaluation of the entire n because then I would cost a lot more stress, which would then consequently to political unrest in the entire economy, and that I don't think a new government who wants to handle that. Yeah, yeah, I get you,

I get your point. Yeah, and it's two you're talking about two topics like if you look at it this way, right, So Trump did trade tariffs to target tram still um, what's it called? Order comes from just from China? Still an aluminium from China specific targeted to trade tarifs. But Trump didn't touch the exchange with it. He can because the dollar is floating. He is free floating. He can if he wants to, he can ask that, he can act the Fed to borrow. He can do

certain policy that will target the dollar. But they didn't touch a dollar. He targeted tarifs, which is trade, and of course trade is tied back to the currency. And his point, his point towards this, the US has has the trade deficit with China because we're buying lots of stuff from you guys. You guys are not buying from most His entire plan was to force the Chinese to buy more, like a call tramp products from America because that

would help him politically and also help the economy. And in the way it worked, if you can see him until today, the Biden actrition is still fighting with China on the same Trump policies that they were against when Trump was doing it. So, but tariffs are you know, they're illegal, right.

You know, the world trade againonal wasn't like tariffs. Trump was able to do it because it says that he made an argument that the Chinese were illegally, illegally propping up the local industries in China, hence they were dumping cheap products in America. But guess what Trump did again that which goes to your point. Trump went back to America and created the conditions for manufacturing America

to thrive. Before Trump became president, the corporate tax rate in communist China was was lower than capitalist America. Just let mess that again to saw you follow. Before Trump became president, the corporate tax rate in communist China was higher. Also, was lower than the corporate tax rate in capitalist China. So what did Trump do? He reduced taxes in America. You know, he passed the Opportunity Trade Act. He tried to start to work on after

he really knewed to whatever right that created the conditions. He passed in that tax cut the provision that you could repatriate front from anywhere in the world back to America one time, no taxes. So the point that makes that even if you do trade tariffs, right, you still have got to come back to Nigeria and create the policies locally that when industrialist wants to come back to Nigeria, they have an advantage. They want, they have an incentive to

come back. You have your hand up also them other go ahead unswer the question them to me amage maybe as your point you said them it m it targeted this did industry however? Oh okay, yeah. So the point again I make is that Trump did the internal then the external. So he did he fixed the internal side of the economy, then he went out to China. If we simply close our borders like we did in Nigeria with doubt fixing the need why we don't have we can grow demand. In Nigeria's point of

making, we have to do internal and extern. You just can't close the border and expect rise production will go up. That's appointment to make. Hey got maybe maybe yeah. For example, you you mentioned the fact that um with that with global trades that using maybe trade the trade tarifts or maybe considered illegal. However, I think almost every every contentment, almost every contry does that. For example, and say the European need I live in European Union,

and then for example we have this. This agricultural policy is common CP common a cultural and policy of the European Union. Certain certain products are much cheaper. For example, beef is much cheaper to produced in South America, much cheaper to produced in America, and it's much chiapers didn't produce there and transport down to Europe. However, they also set of these certain policies that

prevent importation of these products into their country. Technically they might not call it um um trade levels or maybe important levels, but they also setting policies that reduces lest that reduces the incentives to import this products industrhere economy. They are

by encouraging local production. So if I think that instead of taking a completely broad approach, as you said, amen with them devaluation, it makes more sense to just go precisely caless specific industries, target challenges that are facing these industries, and then fund solutions to antist industries. I think that's a much more mutable approach to No. I agree with you, I agree with you

completely, and that's what we should do. I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying yes, and I'm saying we can copy what you How the US does it? You know, target the industry fixed internal today that I totally agree with you, and I'm just making the further point again, do you go to your point on tariffs? The fature is a myth. There is no free trade anywhere on Earth. You cannot pull up any country that allows one hundred percent imports into his country. None, the US, China, Vietnam,

Israel, EU none. Literally a matter of fact, the EU is hypocritical. They want to ban imports of palm oil because it harms the economy. What are they going to replace palm oil with sunflower oil? Weigh sunflower oil grown France. They also want to now put a cab on pay attention and they want to put a cab on harriff on all imports. So if any protecture important to the EU has carbon, what is carbon? Fertalizer, steel, cements and internet has what I mean carbon is made from carbon or

it has carbon. So if you make a cheer, let maybe make it. If you make a Nollywood movie with generator to make that Nollywood movie, yeahs in carbon. The EU will tax that film, that Nollywood film a carbon tax because they want you in Nigeria to go green. But it's all hypocrisy. They are simply protecting their market from cheaper imports from Nigeria and Vietnam. So they say it's carbon tax when they know you cannot easily change over

from generator to solar. So no country does free trade. And we have to be smart. But you just can't come and say I ban you. You do how Trump did it? You know you do your own study. Then you say, oh, because you've done this, I will ban you. You have to be smart about it. The wife you do it, WT you will find you. So that's where I'm going to this. We have to be smarter in how we use trade, how we understand exchange rate. The exchange rate is a strategy. It's not a response. You don't

respond by weakning or devaluing. You should have a strategy and say I want to grow coco export. Okay, so I'm going to devalue my naira, but I'll give cocoa guys free fertilizer so they bring more coco to the market. Then the feinners in Belgium that buy coco will come to night you and buy more coco here than ibricostan Ghana. You have to link it. It just can be I we need money, devalue so and sibion give you money because you can print doesn't make sense, aig, You've got the flow.

So what's happening with you? Thanks that I'm going to preci I think, yes, okay, I suppose we are discussing monetary policy and whatever. But when I just joined the rule, I feel you kind of the based conversation by sectionalizing it and bringing that narrative will head down districts for while. Now

the South tasting quotes promotes competence and just wants to do business. But if you take start, if it take statistics of the leadership of the Southeast since the return of return to democracy in nine to nine, there is nothing that speaks to competence in that part of the country. So it's kind of strange that you're bringing up that competense style because I've heard that from other people than Oh, but we believe in competence while other people just bring any random person

to the position of leadership. So I would you want us to speak to the topic instead of nates in sectional conversation. That's just an observation. You're right, and you're right, and if you follow my spaces, we stick only here money, personal finance and the economy. We only do that and to maybe if if you had if you just joined a bit earlier. The question was asked about what should the next incoming pretient do in terms of the

evaluation. I made the point I didn't use competence. I made the point that the Southeast is interested in doing business. I said, and I have yet that. I said, I want to talk politics now. I have yeted that the incoming president is going to have his biggest political challenge will be from the people of the Southeast. And I said that what they want in the Southeast is equity. They want to do business. Hence, if you come to power and you pass policies that that communicate that I am here for

business. I am here to move the country forward economically, they will hear you and they will get behind you. They don't need appointments, they don't need roads or bridges. They need you to say I hear you and I am here to drive the nation of Nigeria forward. I made the point that in the Southeast, the present president appointed if an able Man as a VP twice and they did not vote for him. The point being made is that

they don't react that way. That's not how they are incentivized. They are incentivized by saying the portraities have fallen, trade policies are doing very well. The NIRO policy or the ancient policy is going to be managed by a pretense person. Hence I made the point that a pointedly non economists as a Serbian governor or mist of finance, that's what they want to see. I linked it to economics. We're not doing politics here. I'm not back by anyone

here, so I may give you more. Um, so we say context to the conversation. Yes, I would like to just stand for remain Uh. You said the Southeast more like they are the way UH be attracted to

the president and wants to do business. Okay, but I don't think I disagree with you that from uh when I hear people from the Southeast or the first thing they say, oh, all the head of the ances from one session of the country, all the queens is something I don't buy an h. Fully, people should be the serfs can go back to the compent if only want to take our life. That is the narrative. So what concerns that with what the current government is doing or not doing right as regards not

wanting to do business. You got know the CBN government which from their part of the country come correct. So yeah, what's the policy today? We have forty four items banned. I think it's about for the six items banned from accessing effects to import for six items banned. We have the border closures, We have the depreciation in nira we have the runaway inflation. Right,

these policies together have killed the sames, have killed trade and commerce. Trade is the largest contributor to the GDP of Nigeria, the largest as even between agriculture now and we can no longer trade in Nigeria because there's insecurity, there's high inflation, there's high unemployment, there's low productivity, there's low consumption, low manufacturing sector conductor GDP, low manufacturing share of the economy. That's what's

going on right now. So what with what Nigeria Not the soutists. What Nigerians want to see. It's a president that says, I hear you that your number one issue today is their economy and I will do policies to grow their economy and to grow wealth. Every Nigerian will hear that and will get behind the president I made the point about the soutists to say that even the most extreme of Nigerians that are on the other side of the political debate will

come in line if the president focuses on the economics. Not to say only the Southeast reacts to economies, but that even the most extreme on the other side of the political spectrum will react positively to anyone that wants to fix the economy. Again, it's all context. Like you said, you joined maybe a bit as I was talking, but we are only doing economics and personal finance here. If I want to do politics, I will do it. So I'm taking my time just to explain to the context of what we're talking

about. I'm not against anybody. I've randy. I want to explain things to people and that's what I'm doing. So even thank you for redirecting the conversation. Like you know, Southeast is just a section of the country. You can listen to the measure that can three years ago you can see a very prominent leader from the section of the country also telling us that's the incoming governmentary established the Ministry of Religious I tell you what, sir, that is

what is part of the country. I tell you what you should know that Nigeria is a multi ethnic, multi religious, multi whatever cultural you know, composition of different types of technicity and whatever. SOB shouldn't use one second of the country to be like the generality of opinion across both every Nigerian, every Nigerian, Every Nigerian will react to anybody telling them that the economy of Nigeria will do well. Even in non Nigerian telling any Nigerian that the economy will

do well will receive positive vibes. In Nigeria. It has nothing to the Southeast. I've explained the game. I use the Southeast to show that even the most extreme side of the political divide will react to any president that passes policies that will grow wealth for Nigerians. That's the point I'm making. The question was what will the next president do? And I said, the word is confidence, economic confidence. It's measured. If economic confidence goes up,

the Nira will strengthen, inflation will fall. Economic confidence. That's where I answer. I'm not doing politics. I'm simply stating that fact. Again. The country today is suffering from a bad economy. That's what we're talking to about. The valuing or defending and we must all get behind whoever is going to be in charge to make this country more forward with that. So I'm going to turn over to sholar sholar pressures. How you're doing, go for it? Yeah? Hi, good evening, could they everyone? Um?

So? Yeah, I wanted to just link the evolution of NIRA. So you mentioned about the link between the devolution of the narrator to include present demand of our homegrown product or home produced products. So, but my concern is the infrastructural deficits that we currently have in certain industries. So for instance, now in the agricultural space, our farmers, they will experience about nine billion dollars post service loss, right, I mean so and loosely means that we

spend about ten billion dollars to import food. So I mean this is just one sector, right, the agricultural sector. So I feel like there's so much. I think our infrastructure is about I think one trillion. I mean, I do have the right figure Viny's very huge and very large ample. So my concern is that even if there's demand, there's increase in demand for our own products, how, I mean, do we have the infrastructure to actually power this? Right? Apple insurance as the yea not so good and

all of this. So how do we basically out do we? Sure? The answer is that we cannot write and we can talk about infrastructure for the entire to the entire year, right, we can't. You can't grow the

economy if you devalue defend without infrastructure. It's a no brainer, right, we know that, and I think that's why we're just sting those too, you know, to pigeonhole the comments now to just the exchange rate, because even if you devalue, right and you want to export coco, the parts of legos are clogged up, the parts of caliban and the rest have drolls to go to them. So you most like we said, you must do

everything. Like with Demola, we said internal and external. If you want to drive exports, right, you also have got to fix the roads that take the cocoa from the farms to the ports. You simply can devalue your way to export. There has to be the you know, the fixing of all those means of production to get all these exports out of the country. The number one export, sadly in Nigeria is Nigerians. We're exporting human capital out of the country. Those that human capital is going out of Nigeria to

go pay taxes in Canada and the US. But long term, that could be an opportunity for niger to say, listen, how can we tap into those folks now to invest back in nigera in infrastructure bonds? You know one dollar one dollar is seven hundred nia. What means if I want to raise seven million nira, right, I just need maybe seven hundred thousand one. There are enough nigerents are broad that can do that for me. So we

have to look at it both ways. That we are losing income today, but we can go back and tap those Nigerians for DA's problems and use those DA's problems to fix infrastructure. That to me, I think it's the linkage that we have to look at. And if that exchange rate becomes narrower and narrower, jack by itself will stop. You know, if if one dar is one dollar, nobody will jack as much because okay, you're gonna walk, they're gonna work there the same thing. But it's here, is warmer,

and you have the prepared gigs out here. You don't have to petkis out over there. So I think that's where you might see a change. But that I think is well, how we have to look at it? You ever come back on that? Yeah, so I think that would work great. Super all right, let's get busy busy. I apologize your hand has been up. I just basically how good we want on this topic that we should defend or the value For me? I think the next administration of

actual people are next to people avoidy to those way it's going. He said, it's going to run a single market and what was that moaning? That means it's going to allow the demand and supply to determine the value of denier. So the question now is that easy going to be the valued? If it's that, we need to look at the circumstances that surround his statesments.

He also said that subsidy moves home, that whether we like it or not, we can pay for thirty days it will move subsidy And I will tell you the link they as are today we are spending almost a billion dollars on subsidy, just subsidy, not talk of the cost of the products as are to day. An nextises the similar import of piedness and wanted it. What it simply do is that when they make money from crudeoil, they don't remit to CPN. They go to the international markets and by payness using the effects.

And that's why all these world I said, we don't have a ready to give the federal account and that is manure reason why we don't have effects in CIPN. So with the dam finally coming up tomorrow, it will reduce the stress on an embassy. That means any crudoise will make we can get back for in exchange for it. And if you notice the carverting the Dangut team, is that because I join in listiar, is that we are going to be buying in Niha. That was the deal they have with Dangle team.

Yeah, they were what will what will dangle by? What will dangleted by? That would is they will give you cruit in what currency in what currency, produce in what currency? By no, it's in what in what currency? Will he get the six parrels it will get definitely because who no, whoill not be selling? I think I don't know the agreement, but the list is coming from Nigeria. I don't think that means that means my likely to neither likely, but it's possible that can also be dollars because he's

also selling to foreign marketer. I know, but we're focusing only. We're focused on the six fifty to Nigeria. Yes, so that one he will he pay in narrow dollars most likely will likely be Nigher because since we are saying that we're going to be selling to finding higher and that's the entire value thy, we're going to buying Nia, unlike now what we are doing that we are buying the entire valuating in dollars. So that means that we're gonna

lose these six hundred in dollars. That's what it means. We might lose, we might not lose everything. It depends on the arrangement. But what I'm trying to tell you is that this stress on our effects, we drastically go down. I agree, and that is the short tem fix and that is why she is also telling those was also telling those that I will make sure that I improve production. Look at which is like a long templant because

whether we like it or not, we Nigerians our tastes for them. And that's one of the major reasons why we're importation is when is affecting the effect level is depanding for dollars or by the NAPO markets where by the demand and supplies, and with the stress on our effects window. I think the economies that because you make your problem a lot of companies are today is that when

they do your business in either they can't go to sibling. Whenever they go to give me the effects and convenient want to report train to my current company, they are not able to get to effects. And that is why I go, he said, I don't want to revisions, want to do business by in dollars. I think is a game changer. They don't go terrifinery, and I want us to also be fair to the previous props, the

previous good, bad, and our previous predeo blow. It's not that they don't know what they are supposed to do, but the problem is that we don't have the facility on ground to be able to say that we don't want to defend their And for your information, every economy defend their courrege, whether we like it or not. It depends on this situation around that Contat plug points in time, I was told that Japan really COVID there are through this

period they also defended at the end. There's nothing wrong the defending your currency. Yes you understand. So for me, I think that's one of them. I'm selling some of my effects. Am I listened to me is determined and we lose what And I pray we all keep my gans that they should please because whether we like it, all know we can't set that our They can have it go through some period of stress and pay. Because the movement

he rose a single market. Everything we go, inflation will go. Whether I would like it, yeah, if your first goal then later to start coming down right time with the same effect. But for why the previous going through it? It because of this damna they defined. Because the idea is that yes, if because of in initially went to downs, we have command street the impact we look as much as as busy. Basically, I agree with the structure of your argument. I think you're right to say that the

dangot To refinery is a game changer. It is because we now have one facility locally. Even if we subsidize locally, it is good for me. Even if we are subsidizing locally, it's fine. So when I was asking you six, I don't mind if it's in Nira and we lose the dollar. I don't mind because we are subsiding locally. But let me just say something to you. I agree, I agree, So let me not say something to you. Right. The refinery itself does not have any bearing to

the retail prize of PMS in Nigeria. The prize of PMS in Nigeria has to do with the price of crude oil into nationally, end of story. Why we blame bue Harry for not the value was that in twenty fifteen, the price of crude early in the world deep to as low as forty. They did not remove the subsidy when it was forty. They called it remo remodulation modulation. If they had removed the subsidy and past PIB, then when the prices went back up, the market mechanisms would have started to work at

least at that time. That's why we're blaming Buehrry. So if you come now in Nigeria now and you put a refinery in Nigeria, Let's say you put one hundred refiners in Nigeria, it will only change the retail price of PMS in Nigeria if the supply coming out of the refineries is more than the demand then prices four. Otherwise before they said Danglete is pain for six hundred and fifty thousand barrels in nira, which means Nigeria would lose six few thou

thousand barrels in dollar terms. No, no, no, don't look at you like that. Why not because oh yes, taking em we're hoping inside Nigeria. Yes, but the cost of something, they say, the cost of something is the cost of something else. In economics, the cost of an orange is the cost of apple I did not take. So the cost of the Danglet refineries of the six hundred thousand barrels, it's not. The cost of the crude oil to dangle Te is the cost of not selling it

to an international market. Waits understanding. This is a fifty thousand barrels will still be at the rate of dollars. But he's buying niners. Don't if the market forces down be harming the post of ennis and what no, no, no hold on basy what price will then go to buy? What currency will then go to buy the six hundred and fifty thousand barrels that he's going to use in the final currency or it will buy it at the international price.

No, what currency? What currency? If if we will if dollars, If if Crudel is like hundred dollars and nine rise, maybe five hundred nine that mass it will be like five thousand nine every bar. So his body is at the dollar rate. Then yes, he's buy. So what currency? What currency will he pay? He demands for the effects because he's dying, dying in neither lesson market price. Yes, okay, so yes, but I want to I want you to let's take let's take a step.

Let's take a step by step. If he pays in nira, what you are saying, it's fine, if he pays in dollar. Look look at this, Let me talk, let me let me see. I'm not arguing with you, sir. I'm not. I'm not trying to get you. I'm not trying to get you. I'm trying to say, poo, poo, are listening to us. Let him on the stonewall saying he can

only pay in nira or dollar. If he pays in dollar, that means the retail price in Nigeria will still have a subsidy because if the international prize goes off, he can only pay he can only pay in nira, and dollars. If he pays in dollars, that means that the local prize of PMS is going to swing in respect to the international prize of dollar of crude

oil. If he pays in dollar, If he pays in nira if he pays in naira, that means that what Nigeria will subsidize to him is the difference between what would have sold these six hundred and fifty thousand dollars barrels to the international community. What I'm saying that the subsidy will remain. It will simply be either it's a local subsidy or an international subsidy. The subside is

not going anywhere. Not a subsidy. We don't. Don't forget that in this Maybe for the first few months you can say that maybe the dollar difference my effect the subsidy. But the little plan is that they wan't run is singular markets, whereby the cost of nidra and two dollars six we know it's the market is termining. So if it decides to sell to us in neither we pay the equivalence in dollars, only that we are giving him Nia. If he decides to sell in dollars. We can't give him dollars. Are

you excised by dollars? But if you sell, if you sell, but it's going to be separated. Please let me explain to you. Please, it's going to be separated. The trading is going to be the separated from the retailing. The trailing most likely will be in dollars because poll is last price in dollars. By retaining will now be sold in nia, which he sees the full subsidy. It will still make his money and convert his money back. There's no substiti remove. That's the point I'm telling you, Busy,

This subsidy is not going anywhere. No where is he going to go to. Okay, okay, last time. Let's do it again, Busy, calm down. Let's do it again. We'll take it slowly. So this is the last one or last one, and we'll move on. Last one, last one. Let's take it again. He can he can only buy crude oil from the nnpc of from ninety in dollars or naira. You agree, let's let's talk about naira. No, let don't want okay, let's neither. He's going to be late in dollars, basically I want you

to come. No no, no, no, no no, it's not gonna be. It's not gonna be. No, no, no no. Don't make that the reason you're giving him in Nira. For reasons, if basically going for a hundred dollars, I mean, how much is the packet? Try man, of who is about Let's say und dollars. Let's say so so if it is one hundred dollars, meaning that let do let me be be prison down. The market is already is singular main markets and the hundred dollars, and let's say, don't like announcer hundred nine. Yes,

but see, I would try to explain to you. You're interrupted. Look at Look at what's what I'm trying to say, sir. Right, If he's buying in Nira, then the cost is not what he's paying, but what we we are not taken in economics, the cost of something is the cost foregone. The cost of an orange is the cost of the apple. Do not buy. So when he buys in Nira, the cost is the dollars, not end. Yes, we are not I agree with. Okay, so you agree, but it's not as the subject does not go anywhere.

Why does it. It's not a sub city sub that by busy. Busy. Listen, listens, basic count you are going around and around, you're you're you're doing. There's a central thing. You are going around around the central thing. Is this what is a sub the subsidie that there's an international prize and there's a local prize. As long as you are selling locally

different from internationally, there's a subsidy. Yes. So we told them pause, pause, if I sell locally different from internationally, I subsidize No. If no, bots okay. So if you get that point, put that point on the right hand side. Let's come to the left hand side. If the price if dangle Te pays a nira, that means the cost of dangle Te is the dollars that manager did not take from him. Right, you're making your you're complicated the simple thing. Basically, basically, you are

complicating the simple thing. Busy. You are competing very very simple than it's a very very simportant I hear you an yeah, I you you're making this thing very converse. It's a very simple thing. Listen, Let's forget. Let's take gala, forget cruel. Let's take Gala ga Gala is sold in America, Gala is sold in Nigeria. The price of Gala in America is one dollar. The price of gala in Nigera is how much? Right now? There are two? Don't worry busy, I'm not I'm not just saying

facts. Dollar Gala in Nigeria is either five hundred niera or seven hundred two exchange rks. Okay, what we are saying now is this, as long as the real price of gala in Nigera should be seven hundred and fifty, not four five hundred, because that's what one dollar in America is. So the price of galen and America is one dollar. Wins the niger issue seven fifty. No arguments, wait, okay, hold on them. So if

we come to Nigeria here my stamina a met you again. The subsidi, the subsidy exists because there's a difference between the American in quote prize and the Nigerian prize. As long as you do not buy gala in Nigeria for seven fifty, you are subsidizing. That's what I'm telling you. So the subsidy goes. You know, we are it doesn't matter, it doesn't It doesn't matter. You are complicatingly simple thing. You are complicating. It's a simple

thing, but you are. You've you've anchored on this. You've you've anchored and you want to don't your alcohol? Go ahead if it doesn't matter, So busy, busy, I mean it's I mean finance. This is what looking money is, what taking money? Whatever? You say? What talking money? What are the can I can? I? Yeah, go ahead? Says that to separate basically, haven't the local economy, of course, an international economy, Um, the price that sales most likely still be anchor

based on the international price of oil, That's exactly. And then however, create a separate economy that of course, this this currency that is what the average man pays on the street, That's what I mean. And what we buy from all the money that goes to is in a circular flu because within that I'm just within an economic before it is not it doesn't go outside, sort of like a separate entity from the international market. Yeah, I got

your book. Technically we are so technically we are. I mean that market is isolated from the international market. We're not really isolated. Yeah, but that's the point. That's the point I'm making this this, this, this way, He's getting it wrong. And this is what I wanted to emphasize. Economics works this way. If I buy Gary, the cost of Gary is not what I pay for the Gary. But this is some of better

I did not buy opportunity cost. That's how economics cost things. So if I that is technically the same thing, because then we're not talking of value, a tone of costs and that value you lost you see hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. We're not of value. We are talking of the cost. I ask what currency with Dante paying, what is the cost of that to Nigeria. The subsidy is the cost prize less the market price that subsidy. If the market price is one hundred, but

the cost is two hundred, you subsidize one hundred. We're not talking of value. We are talking of cost. The cost in economics is the cost of what is foregone. If dan Gote pays in Nira, then the cost is the dollars foregone. That cost, I am saying, does not go anywhere. It's a cost. The only way the subsidy goes is if the international prize falls at the same price or the same level as a can cost,

then there's no subsidy. Go sir, go ahead. But in reality, there I mean, there really is no subsidy because, for example, if if the dollar trade, I mean, if all the trades, let's give let me an example. I use one hundred dollars a barrel, and basically the exchange rag is about five hundred. That's hundred times one times and one hundred that's five thousand. But however, let's say Russia and Ukraine stop their war and then oil prices drop significantly, Technically the price will also drop.

Or let's say the war also goes longer, or let the US cannot produce or Iran cannot produce exactly, um, sorry, maybe one of those video is companies cannot produce. Then the price goes higher. Technically we also be higher in the local currency. But but but it is we do not make this exchange between our local currency. Four. But it doesn't matter. There's the point. It doesn't matter if fourth sense of the isolution. But

it doesn't point it does. You know, I'm trying, I'm busy, I'm I'm I'm not I'm not asking not to speak, or you know, I'm meeting, but I'm not I'm not trying to stop you from talking. No, no busy. I'm saying to it. You don't get me wrong. I'm not asking not to speak, asking just as books can't speak. I'm not meeting you because I don't want it. I'm not saying what this is wrong? You are making a good point. The point I'm making is this. See the point I'm making. Whatever you, guys, whatever is

the argument, there is a cost of something. Everything must be costed. Whatever you what is never there's a cost to it? What is that cost? What is that cost? That cost is the cost for gone. If either is a road and there's a train, and there's an aeroplane, what is the cost of going by aeroplane. What's the cost of going back on on the plane? That's what we're asking here is the cost of the plane, the plane tickets I pay, or the cost of not taking the car,

That's what we're asking. What's the cost of the dagotet that thing he pays, that's the cost of it to Nigeria. The cost is the loss of forex revenues. We can argue like this is saying that because it's not paying forex, there is no pressure on the CBN. But then again, the forest is not coming into Nigeria because we're not selling that crude oil exporting out of the country. It doesn't mean it's bad. It's just the fact that there's a subsidy. As long as the international prize is not the loocal

prize. There is a subsidy. You can't take it away. It's there. But go ahead, I'm gonna stop talking. I think it is important for us to note that this arrangement doesn't affect the price of the of the

coulda. It is going to be buying if the deprisal they could his own dollaper barrier in the international market is going to be pay equivalent to that one dollar, but in NYA a different I don't think we are going to be losing anything with we lose the four res in as much excuseence in as much as we have flots our Naya and there's no dispariteing between the Sabian exchange with it and the black market. Okay, as much as we have done that, we are not going to be having some. But if that is not

dull, that is when government is going to be. The stidy is going to be with me. What what is cular priced him? Sing Michael, what is colar? What is coular priced him? You could a prising is determined international market. What currens is a price. So what you're saying is that when we when we sell to Digot in Nirah, right, if we want to import fertilizer, what do we pay the fellers are company Nara or

dollar? If we sell the crude oil to dangle To in Nira and we want to import fertilizer, do we pay the fellers are company Nira or dollar? Okay? A zombie are important? For Leiza? Were paying dollar? Bo okay? Hold on, hold on, hold on you hold on? Dan paid you in Nira? Would you import fetializer in Narra or dollar? Fertilizer in Narra or dollars? So then then what's that? What's is the

point? Are you not getting the point I'm making that you are sent to dangle To in dollar in naira, but you turn around and use dollar to import other items, So there is no change. Forget forget that. What is what at present the most single um products that we spend most of our dollar and his own for it anyone is this petrol product. But you will still paid the portugum products. You will still paid petroleum. The difference with

danswer you know you're not paid demorage, storage and importation. You will still pay for the creek player. Now they could only still pres in dollars. Why won't they be thrend dollars? Why not? You asking? Are you not importing the fertilizer quote unquote in dollar? So where is the pressure going to? I didn't get that. Where is the pressure going to? Where is this pressure? Where is it good? Are you saying dollar will disappeared?

Because I want for arguing that the man will disappear because it's a refining. But it's not going to disappear, but it's going to do it. And don't forget that he is moving to Endal's dollar by selling to other African I don't agree. I don't agree. I don't sorry preaking because the conversion account for that. There's that respectum the peven speakers and comment, we'll see. Let's look at it in three Damix festival. Let's start with the cement.

Let's start with cement. We know who are from the cement as they're being a difference. You see the thing we're missing works just trying to see and I think let's finish so you can get my point. What HAP point is that you see, communities are not localized. The present is not localized. If you look at Southdiarmic for example, if you look at all these companies where they get their margins are refining and the fact that they have markets

in different places. Dan quickly Festival has bus also. Thus in depth, I CPC the Bank of China given I think the last time I check on plum bag and if you look at the fact that I will see being out to subsidies because he got effects also from the CBN to a subsized with all those things we are playing well, it comes to Pey like okay, when it comes to processing and things like that, how are you seeing that we're going to gain modulus? Because what is what I can argue to use that

it's going to bring were called energy security. The fact that the country are being put on that siege because for example, when the repair market had problems with refinement tainers and U sorry, our posse cannot really taking certain ships and cannot bring some out to taking small smaller ships as to be brought in truth, smaller ships. All those things who come to it. But I disagree that you do make the market more if bringing more, but in the net

time based on pricing of all that, I don't think. I don't I don't see. I don't see that happening because you're not telling me that he's going to export we find petro to despite the fact that Bienda is going to look at the jobs capacity that's the cuty right now, we knew that as the start the refiner, I would like to take us into sixty so we

don't know the local consumption and capacity. Likewise, when the countries, So I think it's faith for us to look at the objectives like the tacut cement when the business mode it does need to really help them with the Refinally, remember NPC also our share in that company. So all the spot the back of your mind, Yeah we want to be yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, the NFPC has been it's not really Yeah. I understand

are saying guarantees. I think twenty percent right that we're supplying. Yes, I understand you're saying, but you're focussing that the price of all is very fluid. Do you know what started is good to the bond market are you aware because their economy is going to depth. That's difference could make one asks one billion dollars last year. So the fact that some arepa is going to

the depth market tells you how where your food energy prices are. So if you past your price just on expecuation, because a price rallying as something five girl as the power, you don't know what's gonna happen too, must time and see you want in Russia and Ukrean, it's gonna keeping price the high because the way the world is moving towards new pools and because like that tells you the progression. So it's a very risky proposition team that the price of

that is finding definitely bringing. I don't really by that. I feel that a power from energisticurity we go down. It's bringing for it definitely because the rest of the rest of African countries are going to apart from guess what, Yes, the cuts might be given to him in Nia, and I'm sure that's gonna be for Eperio's not gonna be for whatever, just to stabilize the surfing for people to enjoy him before he started into turning me with that price.

Also, remember the two refineries, you worry and for facult one two of them to might kicks in, maybe towards the middle of place year and maybe towards the end of this year. So I think, I think what we should understand, I understand what can do is say, exact sociality is still there because you when you are don't introduction money is still there. To let us a rude out that the only difference is that not're gonna pay those demo rate, those exploits, those import duty and all that. But the

other things are still there. But then coveniment was that not buying it in dollars, that's what just gonna it. Just took out that. But then I hope that government can just make somebody away, let him sell it for us at once for one year. After one year, then will have straighten out thing about itself and then we can move on for them. Yeah, sorry, just keeping but sorry you forgotten that when he was building that he

used debt. Forgotten that you're forgotten that those depths, those depths were in dollars. Forgotten that, hold on, hold on, you're forgotten. Hold on, I don't want to learn. You forgotten. That is the commodity. The primary product is then denomated in dollars. All those things play,

and you forgotten that the cost of brewing has gone on. That's why many companies right now are reducing the dollar depth exposure, so to be a pretty smart thing for him as much as possible to reduce depth because in the cost of interest, then will you will go to You're trying to tell me that we have to easily runs those things when you William Cant told you that they

of the world. The colony shows that the county country. So I don't buy the fact that it's going to punk in the What you could just see is that yes, the native affects that, yes, he's going to drinking at the security have much more great jobs. Let's on the table. Let let me run the table. Let me get no El Jaffe. Hold on, hold hold up, hold up, Jaffe, go ahead. What's her mind? I think, I think a lot of things. Because an opportunity

into factor in all this discussion. There is a part already between the Jura and then to refinerary to sell him constantly three hundred three under thousand barrel. That is the part. Not this is fifty You remained three fifty than source for it himself, either buy from the immediate company in Injuria or directly from Majoria and government. These three the thousand partake, okay, which is exactly. Yeah. So whether they're going to say that to him in Nera,

but they're going to say to him in dollar, I don't know. But that he's going to sell to Nigerians in Neira, that's certain also. So that's good information, all right, Yeah, are you good? Yeah, that's good. That's good information here we are trying to we're not looking at this that whatever inmates you guys are talking about now, we're not good forever.

We know as for too long. It's just for Nigerians to be stable with our you know, our our let me see our access to the to the products, to the petrillium product for now, which is going to both because basically when you look at them, it is basically designed for exports, not for lookal consumption. It's in an export processing zone. Hint, hint. It is basically designed for exports. So if he's just being rescuing Nuria for a work, it's just for are tufols to be speakle. So we

should not really consider umfinary as the forever solution to Nigia. Definitely, let me making clear for Let let me clear for for pol listening. The Dangote refinery is built to export Nigerian crude oil products and make dollars for Nigeria. Dangote is not built to supply PMS to n NPC Jarra or n NPCA baker Lak. That's for NNPC refineries. So he will do it because it's in Nigeria, because people are Okay, he loves people, but that's not why

it was built. They did not give him funding with subsidized dollar to supply an NPC Dama two and an NPCR bar with PMS and diesel. No, it's built to export Nigerian crude oil components, condensates petrochemicals outside the country, just like dangle Te petro Chemicals exporting fetializers to day, to Brazil and the US and not to Nigeria. Keep that in mind. Guys, Prince, you've got the flosster Prince Ninja more veloci. Prince, you've got the floor

go ahead to Thanks Jeff, Prince, Mister Nacos go ahead. Princes having issues to get mister Nacos go ahead. Oh nacos. Yeah, okay, Prince, go ahead, sir, please go ahead. Yes, yeah, I've been hearing everything and I really upstate to all the points everyone is pointing out. Well, then I'm the thing I ordered to actually point out this outside your ole oil angers conversation that we're having, because I don't know if that's okay, Well talk about what are you talking? What are you talking

about the naira? Should we the value? Should we defended? The whole issue about the dangle to refinery is because that's going to be in all honest, it's going to be a big, big determinant in devil defending because like someone has, like think PC pointed out the bulk of our forex explains right now to import pms. So if we can have something that removes the imput of PMS, then that's going to be a big factor for the next CB and goes its going to defend. Yeah, so go ahead, yeah,

I mean that dan is really that's what it comes in. That's going to solve that problem. So giving problems. But then my one point now is we are very heavier important in Nigeria here and then the whole part where you said itself is ready to work. But then if you think about it,

they even the ones that even imported the most, right. And then we have like a list of things that should not be imported into an idea, but then you see them getting important, right, and then you're not able to source dollar for those things that that are not allowed to be important, right, So they have to go through with the parallel market and buy a start really close and that hug those rates and then that makes it's more expensive

to sell to Nigeria. And so that's basically why you say that a lot of things are much more expensive, right, which is bad, right, But then we have manufacturing companies, a lot of people that set on manufacturing like ventures, and then they have to close down just because they're not able to sustain the business because the cost of production means that the price or whatever product is going to be cheaper, it's going to be much more expensive than

the ones that have been imported from China, because apparently there's I don't know how China is able to do it. By ahead that the Chinese government subsidizes anything that is exported from China, so they pay a bit of the money out of they pay a bit of the money for even the people outside in

the country that's buying from them. They help you, they won't pay like a bit of it, which is part of the subsidity thing, trying to help their own manufacturing companies or manufacturing industry to grow, making it making making it's even much more. Oh would I see? People would want to buy things are cheap and our value for money, so they can basically maximize on their improfits. So that's the Let me ask you a question. It made

a point about import. Do you what country in the world is the largest exporter exporter in the world. What country do you think I would I would see China? What country and the was the largest important in the world. It's no Nigeria for sure, but I think it's America. It's China. It's China, China important exporter. The issue is not import or export, its net exports. So if the if I want to make shoe and I

import letter from Carno, I import com from Ado. I make the shoe in a bar and I export, but I import say maybe the Maylon to wrap it. That's fine. The issue is not import, it's net export. Economics. Say you want to do a net export from your country. So if they're important as impute to important machine you import and to finish your goods, that is fine. The problem with Nigerias that we're important consumption.

That's a problem where important consumption. Same thing with the PMS subsidy. There is nothing wrong in subsisting PMS. Nothing wrong. If Dangote is paid cash to subsidize PMS for Nigerias, there is nothing wrong because it's a local subsidy to make manufacturing in Nigeria cheaper. So you goes Dangota and you say, supply diesel to textile films and a not to produce the textiles cheaper in Nigeria that can be exported. More power to you. The problem is that what

we're doing we're important. Education, we are important healthcare. How do we import healthcare? You go abroad to fix you to visit your dentist, that's important healthcare. You go abroad to go to school, that's important healthcare. So China is the largest important, largest export that Germany imports. Journey export, USA import USA export sam Your Apple phone is design is where your Apple phone is important to America? Who designs it? America? Where is it

made? China? Do you anyone saying Apple phones are important, it doesn't matter because the net to Apple is an export. The net resides to them. It's an export. They build China more than China build them. They built China for design, China builder for the hardware net Apple wins. So yeah, everything you said is perfect, of course, but I'm not trying. I'm not saying that important. I'm talking about the arts where the manufacturing

companies or the engine manfacture ventures are not able to sustain themselves. Even if, yes, you said, those machines that they need to produce whatever, to make it cheaper to produce in Nigeria, they're allowed to get it dollars from Sivia or that typerates. Yes, that happens, fine, right, but then for some reasons they're still not able to be cheaper than what's been important from China. It's it's cheap, it's not because cost of manufacturing in

nurger is very expensive. We have no power, we have no securities. We have to provide your own power that at least in five percent on your selling price. Well, let me give you a point and let you go right, there's about ten to twenty billion dollars sitting in Nigeria. Some not any interest some any interests in the banks. If I wanted to make that currency available Monday, that is today Monday in Niger, what would I do? I give value to six fifty. Once I devalue, what happens?

All those guys are happening in their dollars will take the money out and sell to the banks to get six nine from me because six fifty is better than four fifty which is currently at right, So there a flow of dollars into Nigeria. The manufacturers then get dollars immediately to that they can use to then import imputs to make products. Right. Those imputes are then exported, right, then there's small dollars coming into the country. Right, what else do

you do? You are killing imports because at six to fifty, it's more expensive to import, it's cheaper to manufacture locally. So it's not rocket science to say that if the cibient today the values in nira to seven hundred and fifty, that ten to twenty billion that is sitting in domar accounts in people's pockets in Nigeria will leave the banks and be sold immediately. Because nobody wants to it's not money, right If you sell that dollar, dollar becomes available.

If that becomes available, what happens to surprise of dollar? What happens to the price. If something is available, happens to the price of its economics, it falls if something is available, the price or something false. So in the irony of a strong nihra is that your currency becomes weaker, and the irony of a weak currency is your currency becomes stronger. So the

seven in trying to keep the naira strong is making it weaker. If you simply devalued it, you allow the market to determine the rate of demand and their demands them in the optimal price, then the real price will come out. Then nobody will import a shirt from London for us, not because you can't afford it, if you can't afford it by a ember. But if you can afford it, sure import the shirts from London. Then you only import what you know it's important to you. You can import food, you

can import pms or should you import sparkling water? Why should you import sparkling water? So economics to create a budget for you, and then with that boat you focus on what is necessary for you as a nation. In South Quore, they band every import. You only have to import imput during the time of Park the military dictator. Right, and that's how they got themselves on the shore footing. You can't say you have no currency, then you

are. You go to a budja. I've seen still Champagne water being sold in the markets and a budja what's it for? What's it for? Right? So if you want to import still champagne water, buy from the market and import, then let the Cybian focus on subsidizing the same is through these counter dollars. I don't see why it should sell every dollar teven fifty, right, and the Cybian sales could oil. Let the money go to CBN. But if I export my cocoa, if I export my fintech and I

get my dogs, let me sell US seven fifty. So that way, you know, there's a bit of development finance also a bit of the market taking charge of situation. Hetty dre, what's ups? Go ahead, You've got the floor, hetty name right, heah, go for it, man, Yes, thank you very star. Calor. I think you also also running today earlier, your earlier smission. You actually also missing it again even though your that's quest earlier which I agree with, which is that it can

you just choose for in exchange policy only to solve structural problems. So today, because you have aser that question the way yours are the game, you are going back again. If today decide to say let's fl it will not stop solving structural problem. It will also deally make her production albom cheap because they are fundamental structural problem at home. So you're always you always have a

problem. And I think part of the example is that of Egypt, which they did just around the fifth So foreign next dent policy is a soul where it's one of the twos, it's not the only two because many economies. He made this mistake of saying just the value lets the market just just flutes and wants to flouts is a magic wand and it to solve all structural problems. And you answer that earlier, So I think we have to stay there that we have to look at the entire government of the n eger and economic

system, look at the trip policy, look at refractoral policy. Nangeran economy has to develop as a whole. So people have to sit down and look at the entire value chain of niger and economy. What exactly do we want to do? It is when you do that something I've answered earlier, that will come up with a comprehensive policy framework. Under that you might have the usual of foreign next day policy, industrial pol see, trait policy, all

those things mostly demosticy energy around everything. So what we are telling in Nangia so far, not for ticcades, is that people are so lazy that it those people who want to where a monitu policy too or fiscal policy too. They don't speak one thing and leave the other things without addressing those issues. So if you DIVI let us produce ships in Nanguria today, we don't have that industry. Again in an engineer, is that how do you bring it

up without actually thinking about the entire economy. I think that's the number one. Number two I think I think it was basic that engage to explanation very well and that explanation is simple. We don't drink presently in Nigeria. We sell international markets and make dollar and use that allowed to buy some other stores. So once you're selling Nara, what we're doing, which can be a stay very is an opportunity cost. That means you're not going to make that

door again. But it demand for the lights still, then why you're making less dollar? I think that's the example was given. That's because in dollar that means you see have the problem of meeting the light demand in the markets because there are so many other inputs that I get from my abroad that I have to pay in dollars. There are so many commodities far from my abroad

missionaries that I still have to pay in dollar. But because you no longer said the school run in dollar, you're not saving that dollar you sit any longer, so you still don't have the effects in actual effects to solve the problem of effects in the market. Let me just tell them my brother, thank you. Yeah, that was well done. Thank you again, thanks for that. And that was the point. I'm trying to make that in

any way as long as eats good point. But again, you know, we can't talk about everything, you know, we infrastructure is the insecurities there. We just want to talk about the valid defend. I get it. If it valid doesn't make the road in the bow will get better, right, But we're using to talk about this particular topic. And guess what guys got about fifteen minutes to go. Only make sure the guys that are here and I forgot to speak. I do give them a chance to get their

their their warden bollering. You've got the flow, so I go for it. Yeah. Thanks a great conversation, and I want to appreciate everybody else spoken before, particularly healthier. I was really excited about your submissions. Thank you for that. It's um the temptation to take one to or one one essentially one framework geared to understand the reality is there's a real temptation, but

it easily doesn't lead us any way. Could us multiplace that there's there's no moon to cause our you know, kind of situation here floating the currency is not some kind of silver bullet that's going to solve our problems. We have structural issues where I'm unproductive economy, we are not export competitive, and that's

what we need to fix. Fund them. Literally. The other thoughts I just wanted to share real quick is sometimes it's important for us to remind ourselves of the real mechanism that is currently operating regarding how we get PMS at the pump in Nigeria. Many of us are aware of the DSDP swarms, which is essentially and again I believe we all know as of now, the NNPC is the sole important PMS to Nigeria. How they get that PMSS is by

exchanging crew which they would have sold for dollars. Okay, So this is where the opportunity cause is coming in. Again. The exchange is crew for pms. But they're not exchanging directly with offshore refinements. They're exchanging through essentially contract holders, you know, in between intermediaries you know, who have won the contract. And what is happening is that effectively some of these intermediaries still have to find dollars to bring in the PMIS. It's not like they bring

crude and exchange pers in some meeting points. Doesn't work like that, you know. So the PMS has to come in anyway, and to get that PMS they need to find dollars somehow or the other. So even though technically we're exchanging crude for pmis, they still dollars demand in the mix somewhere there and they have to find that dollars to be able to bring the paniss in and then collect the crude oil which is what they're taking in exchange and sell

it for dollars probably at the later point. So in understanding that, we get a clearer picture that what happens with the Tangletar refinery is nothing so fuzzy. It's just that we now have the refinery next door. It's not different from the off floor refineries. It's next door, so you know, logistics costs and all that imaginary lower and can be reflected to a very really limited degree at the pump. Right. The other very major thing which I've been

hearing us talk about is how is Dan gooted? How is this happening? Are we exchanging the crude with dangle ted directly? And in this case, obviously we don't really need intermediaries anymore. We can give him crude oil as feedstock to the refineries and he gives us pms no need for intermedial so there really there's no money changing hands. The conversation is that of an opportunity course. But even in that conversation, remember as of now the NNPC is exchanging

crude it would have sold for dollars with dangle to it. The NNPCY is exchanging crudely to that soul for dollars. Nothing much is changing the price of PMS at the pump will not change, It will not get lower, maybe imaginally sold due to low logistics. Cause for nothing dramatic right now, and I'll end by it for justice to the point the issue of Nara, you know, dollar again, if the exchange is a direct exchange, there's no

currency exchange taking place. Now. If the exchange is not a direct exchange, and we start to have conversations about, you know, are we selling the crew to down with the Nara or dollar, then we can have the next conversation, which is at what rate are we selling this If we're selling it to Nara. If we're selling it at the Cibian rate, that is an implicit subsidy already. If we're having one rate, a floated currency or

whatever, there obviously no subsidy at all. So this is to me, this is how to understand the situation without getting you know, confused in the mud waters of everything. And thank you, but I don't go anywhere because I think if you explained this way better than all of us have, and I think this is the point I was not getting. I wasn't able to explain as clearly with the light that you have done right I've said that the Dinod refinery all it does it it removes any costs, do more rage,

you know that insurance of bringing the ship and all that. But the I think you've done it better. I want you just say again in the way that we can follow what what what are the savings if any and is there going to be a subsidient? Just say it again, just recap it in the way that we can anyone listening can actually understand. I can take them an explaion. Next person again about just that we are totally Claire, Yeah,

yeah, thanks called that's what again. I will say, as of now, we are exchanging crude oil with off floor refineries through intermediate right refinery comes. It is exactly like the same refineries. It's just that it's a are dosted. So the ships and all of that. The logistics costs, which will obviously are currently being reflected at the pump price, you know, that will be reflected to some degree, you know, lower logistics cause so

it's maybe it's slightly lower price at but clearly nothing dramatic. So nothing is changing. That's what I'm saying. The dogetary refinery changes nothing, absolutely nothing. It's the same thing. However, and I like to say this, the dogetary refinery is a beautiful thing. It's a signal of you know, industrial capacity of the country. It's a really good signal in the market. It's a potential export earner, but only only if the terms of exchange for

crude and p MS reflect a zero subsidi situation. And remember what is the subsidy. The subsidy is that the p MS we are getting for a certain amount of crude, you know, it is lower than it should be. Essentially, what or what what I mean is what we're selling the pair at the POMP. That's what they say, is not a subsidy. It's it's a modulation recovery. You know, we're selling at the point we're getting less than we should be getting, uh for for what we have exchanged uh it

for CLU for UM. I hope that helps. Yeah, it does. And I just want to make sure people understand understand that, you know, they's it the tendency to think someone earlier kIPS me on Twitter that I don't like that with the refinery, I'm trying to explain. I'm just explaining what Ballari has done with the clarity I get it Basy. I know, basically you don't like what he said. I get it. There's there's one little thing that, yeah, this subsidy is not removed. That is, if

we don't change the terms of exchange. You know, if the prices at the POMP do not reflect in cost recovery, ciplution, what is going to happen is what is already happening. Our demand profile is not reflect people of the actual demand of the Nigerian market. Clearly the product is being stuggled across borders. The last weegle I heard was our eighty million letters per day for our for our information at marketimum output referring to the fiatstop of about six fifty

thousand bars of old per day. Right the equivalent output in p messages about fifty million letters of pmss. Are you guys saying what I'm saying? The maximum output down the refinery does not even satisfy the demand that we currently have of PMS because of old is modeling. So you have a problem. You can't even meet domestic map. So what apposed restport banning d You can't export because about the report the other two refineries kicked in in the fort the end

of the year, the Porter cont and Delta and Worried Refinery. Those two also kicked in in December. No, let him answer. It's a good question. Let him it's a good question. But answer. We are mixing what subsidies, please, subsidies the landing prize of payments at the depot is like fou and that's what an NBAC is bying Nigerian government. An says an MBAC don't sell at five wound, sell to my people all over Nigeria at

one in five or one in now. So that difference is the subsidy is you actually from the good you may buy a market please, That's why it is called under recovery. And sometimes these terms I'm quite quite impater um and a gonna apologize there um. The issue is at the pump price. It's it's an under recovery that we're calling itself. Yeah yeah, yeah, so

what what what we favor us? We don't utilifinary. That's why all our top shows according to a subscii because they know that they don't want them good to down keeps and they not want to subsidence. They want to sell at the market price. The landing cast. Everything must be every value are then must be paid for by the ads and whether we like it or not, the price of PMS we go if it goes up on clacks, if you

come down, if it goes down. The only difference as he are saying that the phrase the practicals might belities that itself you need to be realified when it came focus. So we basically but basically he's saying that the sting I'm

saying that there's not going to be any change. This is the point that I'm saying this is that there is point pressure on our desires like what we have to and don't forget that why we are opinion is also the price of piment in that at the point and one nine yeah, our own So I can't take it to camera. I'm going to say, I'm making difference of over to represents yep. So by time level the marketing demand, you can't have resubs that it plays it in down and our power and all those these

works. Another I said short loading, short downloding, binary blessed work loandterm is to stop, thank you, okay, and I just trying to quick color okay, UM, I just wanted to correct two Um misapprehensions. Um you said. I also had someone say that the dono to refernal is thenly for exports. I don't think that is uh totally correct. Um. The news complexity, they don't go to say it's ten point five you know, just you synchnized in the world. And it's configured in the way that they

can moderate what it has to produce. So it's not a flat output in terms of what it has to producing PLAYMSS for diesel or any given products. So if at a given time we need X amount of payments, it can contrigure to produce that. If it needs to reduce that to produce more dig it can do that or any other product. So it has like the Schnie that's a comprehensi and it is one of the most complex in refineries we have

in the world. They can do a lot and that's the compos thing means that they can boost become aximise the output of the idle carbon in terms of

what you get comparel to the can to refinery can export. And I also meet a local demands on hundred percent go to to refinery as cities now the country as like the building arms for local distribution, and that I said, the loading arms can distribute for the letters and six thousand later because distributions local distribution here historically okay, go ahead, ask you a question ahead, please finish. So so they can just do too. They are set up to

distribute locally. W designs segre. They said, look, this is not what we wanted to do. Water to just do apprecires for export, the maybe off take for for for local the dangleting. And also they said, look who must be able to supply the local market. And if the factor that into the old referary structure in terms of the way the water to do the distribution and export as well, that's a commonly the last piker said, or the bagibum output of don referari is fifteen, No, that's not true.

The magibum output of between one and three or as seven million letters have been a star fifty, the similar fifty in terms of bowers per day. So they can actually do export and can conveniently, you know, produce for the local markets. Two free. Yes, I do able. Reverse said, you know, you explain everything a lot that I said, nothing. The changes were not change because we also forget we always focus on carements.

We also forget that what we do, we sell our crude and we probably be payments atf and Dizoo and maybe some careres and if we do for the local market. But also forget that the major components of crude that we're going to now be preserving, so we full refine our crewd they're like the little refinery, it's don't be producing quite a number, like the KO said, the number of components in products from the crude, you know, because of

this high NCA. That also we also have the petrol chemical complex that's going to be producing propla you know that can cater to our you know, plastic markets and tire markets and ano that market. So all those guys are long are going to be important. Everybody's gonna be buying I'm off taking from the diglet A refinery, so you're going to save a lot more, you know. It's not those payments are looking at. They're looking at all lots of

product categories. They are no longer going to be important that you're going to get from the dangle to refinery now correct. Somebody said that when they're going to comes, it's probably going to be doing fifty thousand barrels per day. All that's also not true too. Of course. You know when the refinerary starts, they are going to sequences to the geest the maginemum capact capacity to when it starts O pressure going to start with total five thousand barrels per day,

you know as a first O pressure. Then in the first few months and uses of all that in a year business about five hundred, they finally living a YO two enough begins to produce a the maagemum capacity of setting O

fifty thousand barrels per day. So let's got those two can be dangle to refinery and focus on only chemist components that the only lots of components are products that are going to come out of you know, the dangle to refinery to first amplements is giving you enoughter diesel, light gases, apples, very food,

some heavy and heavy gases. You'll get carousy, you'll get all of these other components right from the CDU the cutislation with as a first tampl that comes out obviousity before it goes to the catalytic light catalytic arctos to break it down further. So there's not just focus on the planets component as it means of maybe revenue or opportunity. Because of savings, we're also going to be

signal cluses categories. And finally, when the last person said, I said, and he just you know what are done, what these savings will be in terms of what we're going to be saving, and he said in terms them of But it's not true because of it at the end of if you look some perculasion and some say, oh, about open six killion will received you know from all the standing charges, three charges, demo reade what they call this receipts it and and that says it's about three pert sixty billion dollars.

So if you do that aggregate, cause there's a lot of money, there's not something you just you know, play them and say, oh, you know the changes are just today's a whole lots going on within the not

to refinery that it's going to improduce the colony. I finally, we're not going to talk to about the impart of the downstree sector be because of the number of products are becoming out of the crude that it's going to go along this value chain and the optakers along that still easier for the different companies of the different facts for the different refractory. So there's a huge in order benefits offer an economic game changer. So she didn't you shouldn't suppose should play down.

While I agree that all of these things that said we're book it down and I totally people these are all the other things because we're also doing that famous look at all the event benefits of all the event products are coming down refinery, thank you. So you know the best thing we're gonna do, right, Yeah, We're going to bring you and bothering where I think guys would agree. We'll bring you guys back. We'll do a special session on the refinery. Uh, just knock out an hour. I would have full

of both of you. I'm going to send you guys DMS. I would love for you guys to come back. It's our refinery. But let's just talk about it. We are not doing this to talk down or to downplay any positivele refinery. You know, the whole topic is that the value side and the point I'm making it just to emphasize that how it would play out on the reserves, just for poor to be clear, we're not pulling down.

Then Gotee or talking down any benefits. And I when we say the point that Dangle refinery is created for exports, it's right there in the location. It's an export processing zone number one. Number two, the Cyban governor himself said they are going to support dan Gote with subsidized dollars decades ago,

right because Dangote would lay in the future supply Nigeria with dollars. The whole idea for Dangote, the strategic reason for Dangote is to create a refinery that is focused on taking that crude, making those byproducts, not just the pimas like you've said, even the fertilizer plan or it's a comprehensive and the fertilizer,

the refineries, exporting them and getting for explanation. So the primary reason why the CBN got behind Dangote gave Dangle to the subsidized dollars as they should, is because it is a long term play by Ninetier to diversify have forex and it's a way from crude royal. But there's no way you can those build a refinery and export could with our focus on the local market. So even the NNPC invested in dangoteer to give you strategic meanings to the too Nigeria.

That's the point I make when I make is for export. It is created to export products of Nigerian coude oil, not just the coude oil, the products to condense it. They resents all that from the refinery in an export processing ZOE so that it goes out. That's the point. So if you guys will come back blowing war and are Yo, I think will be much much blessed to have you guys come and then do a session just on the refinery and how you can connect it. Look at the time, guys,

we are almost done. Wally, you're going to be our closing guy. Walle How you doing? Hi? Everybody, how you guys doing. It's been a very very rich conversation. I've enjoyed. I've enjoyed myself. I just wanted to share a few things, you know, and I think some of it some of the guys that have said it. The last week I talked about the output. What we have in terms of Dangle Tos output is I think the PMS is about fifteen million and I think Disney is about

seventeen million. That's what we're have in the public domain, if there's any inside information that will be up to one hundred and three million, we haven't seen that. That's one two for me. I've looked at the refinery as well, you know, very laudable projects, massive projects. For me, I think in terms of what will be saving, you know, and I like to look at it in xact manner. In terms of our dollar outflow, it's about twenty percent about total dollar requirements, so it's it's substantial.

You know. We still have seventy two outgoing, so there's still a lot that and between. That's that's the second point for me. My third point is on how we need to balance our monetary policy, which we've been talking about with our physical policy. One gentleman came up and talked about it earlier run and for me, until any government doesn't look at the two, you know, a sort of strike a balance, we will never see anything called

development. And that's the God's own truth. Let me mention something very quickly on the physical side of things, where we need to develop a lot of our infrastructure and things you know around energy, transport, water, mining, agriculture, icity, housing and regional development, social infrastructure. The invital ratistration and security. Those are like the key um infrastructure requirements that we need until we find a way to start spending money. And you know the last document,

the Integrated Infrastructure Master Appliances. We need twenty five billion USD parano to start investing in this thing, and we need to invest for thirty years, you know, to become anything like all these countries that were wrong too. That gives you, that gives you an idea of what we need to do.

So until we start doing that, before we see anything you know called meaningful development, I don't I don't think the dan't Go terrifining by Itsel, which is just one project is in you know, will do this because the prices of will will not necessarily go down. I can assure you of that

because there's so many other factors involved. For me, until I see the financial model that the dant Go terrifinaries based on, you know, we'll just gets because the man has given a lot of those to nominate and loans, you know, which he needs to pay back. So how it pays that by selling the bulk of the spoiling nirak. I'd like to see how that works. But like I said, you know from the finance perspective. Now when I see is the financial model, you know I can give a more

informed opinion. My last point is on how can we begin to solve Nigera's problems immediately. I think you've mentioned something around this card when we started this conversation. For me, one on top resource that a lot of countries around the world that are getting into today's that's for A funding and you see Nigeria's that's for U funding hasn't been harnessed, you know, hasn't been critically pursued by the government. But in the last four years, according to Sidon and

the World Bank, sixty eight billion US dollars have come to Nigeria. Sixty eight billion US. You see that amount limitary importantities. It is higher than our aggregate revenues in this controvery the last four years. It is higher than any dar we have received or any old maybe we have received. All those eight is higher than all of it. For me, that sixty billion has

been what the core black tanks from the dasport US. So whilst a lot of people city disadvantages of this Japa movement, I see mntely big advantage human

me. What if the NIDERA government and this is on the physical side, just following for about a minute, it's a nider government is able to find your way to salom instead of getting sixty eight billion US dollars in four years, How can we motivate like driers abroad to trust us, to have confidence in US as a government and begin to reportrate the sixty eight billion per annal

per annal that all of a sudden. Now if it comes in that as FTI, which is invested over the longer term, takes care of all the nonsense around our fiscal requirements, then we can begin to have a lot more conversations around this dangle terrefinery. How he helps the monetary side of things. Look for me, until we start to think in this manner, you know you have good that the letter, I've good at the right, Until we have the government that things in this manner that Look, how can we solve

this problem? I can we balance it? For this? You know we won't. We won't really see any meaningful development for me. Well contue aroun around um in circles. That's what I wanted to share. Thanks a lot for having and I was thanks for that we as usual detail. I think I'm sorry I missed two guys that are still annoy You're spoken that we're here. I've got mister Verse, another got mister Victor. So we'll do Versey F and we'll do Victor and then we'll call today. Thank you so much,

guys. I think it's very, very and rich and I've learned so much. So you've got the floors, go ahead and proposing, right and walk up basic Okay, Okay, thank you, thank you, mister Carlo. I mean I just came to ask questions because you guys are the at the professionals now and I think so my questions will be answered in the course of the discussion. My other question is the pipelines for the transportation of petroleum products. What's going to happen with that? Thank you? Wow, that's

outside my Let me are your or ball what he's asking? Do you guys have an answer the pipelines? A talk about the pipelet to go to Danglete or what they wants for an NPC? Could you be more specific? Yes, the ones that an NPC owned about five thousand kilometers, they go to

about twenty something that pulls around the country. And if we're going to be removing tankards off the road, and if you want to reduce the costs of you know, petroleum products reaching other parts of my Injuria, I will think that rehabilitation or such a pipeline would have been in the works concurrently with the refinery reports. I've not heard it anything anything about it the last I checked, and the proof of public and he was trying to sell it off,

you know, and all of that. Then another question two is on the other refineries that people are talking about. I have gone to the website of the companies that they said at doing turn around maintenance, and they're not talking about any maintenance they are doing. We are not seeing any pictures coming from there. SOS has some shows based on I'm on LinkedIn, are not feel a mentain So it is here really going on and all that, thank you? That is maybe the experts can speak, But I think n NPCs still

owns the pipeline. So unless you're asking something different, I think Dangles doesn't own the pipelines and still owns them. What will happen to nnpieces infrastructure, I don't know yet. On turn round maintenan song has said, I think it's the busy that I said that the n NPC, the one important coord is going to be up this year, which means the TM is going on.

I have no records of that or only clarifications. So anyone that news can help in and give us that clarification on the pipelines and NPC and from the pipe plane for the pipeline, they are still there, but the present arrangement is that there are a lot of depos I know Pinapple is around the

dangles. So the plan is that Pineapple will get there. Pipelines so black and that is Pinapple that I think somebody to talk about that has liked countries or something so down looting for all the depots will be using vessels and these small vessels to move for dangle terrifying to expecting. The bigger problem with the pipeline is the gold vandalization. You know Nigeria Y's pipelines are there. Some

people are happy with it and a lot so they're not really lied. And that's why the allog what I'm sure if you can solve security problem and other challenges, it's also reformed pipe plane and linked them more and employed m good point good points, Yeah, thanks, thanks for that basic times. The second question you asked, it was about yeah, Peo come around and then all the companies mentioned because like I mean, all these foreign companies based on

corporate governance, you always see press releases in their websites. You go on all their websites. There is nothing mentioned on LinkedIn. They there have been no pictures coming out of the tier and so where are all these assumptions coming up? Because if the last week check, they spend over twenty five billions brothers on a turn around maintenance in quote for the past twenty five years, but we've never seen anything. So what is different this time and where it

is to prove that there's something different this time? Yeah, well, let knows that favoritical and political matter is that I think the first time they gave me to look out then and that that makes them so now. I think we had now was given to be who are the Militia Louisa of the finary? Why the second one was little entireance and based on the last information I couteping del that they're actually working seriously. But the problem is that they started

working during the second time for people are administration. The first time I think that was major is why they looked at you. I was jorius that he didn't do it on time or because he encouraged them to be able to look out. Okay, and when they did that, I think, well that those water on streatle. I mean it's a double legsode. If that lookal guy had performed you that he would have been local contents. I'm sad that he didn't perform. Yes, I think he came to look at another forty.

I think was difficult to get goal. I think those jazz di not found in compu is an expected refinary. So those a man, that's the killer. All right, thanks for our busy, Thanks for giving us that insight. Let's get Victor in here. Victor, you've got the floor, last guy, Victor k go for it, Victor. Victor counting down, Victor counting down. All right, guys. So hey, we've been here eleven twelve one, four hours, guys, four hours talking about Nigeria.

You know, the Nira, the refinery, you know, just the economy in general, about Niger. And it just shows that everyone on the space listening talking contributing role of Nigeria, right, even though we might have different Twitter posts and all that kind of stuff. We all love Niger, all have an interest in Niger and we want to make Nigeria better. That's all. We can spend four hours talking about naira and dollar and refinery and that's

a spirit. We have to get this nation more. We have to get this team going, create wealth, improve productivity, you know, get the insecurity down everything and not economy, but get things working. We are too big to be where we are. This country is too valuable, you know, to implode or to underperform. And this country starts to improve, Africa starts to improve. So we have a lot of work ahead of us and we just want to make things work. We want to make things get better.

That's it. So the value defend. You know, we didn't take any positions like economics. We don't give you answers. We give you options and choices. And you there's not one part way that is one hundred percent correct. It's always a hybrid. Defend here the value here, but look for a path that leads you to productivity, to higher incomes and of course to creating worlds for your sasinry. Again, we act the nigerent government, you know, to listen to the people and do what is right. You

know, let your actions follow your words. You know, we can talk about an economic catastrophe, but we're buying ten billion fire trucks and we're spending one on internet. Focus on what is important my food pms. That's nigs are shouting about power supply. That's what we're shouting about insecurity. Focus on that. Get it done. Get the confidence. The key word is confidence. Nigents don't want you to fix or don't they know that you can't speax

all the problems in one week. But I want to see that you know what you're doing. Then not get behind you. That's really it. They will get behind you and wants people are behind you that you can do everything. That's gonna be our closing line here, guys. I wish you guys the best. Have a great week coming up here. Mondays are my favorite days. Go out and achieve your dreams. Take you guys and buy