Is Nigeria Entering A Debt Trap?

Hey folks, good evening. Welcome to you all wherever you're listening from. My name is calu Aja. Welcome to the money space with me.

On this space, we're.

Talking money, we're talking to the economy, we're talking personal finance. And this week we're talking what a great topic is Nigeria entering a debt trap. Right, so just before we start, guys, just make a statement. When we hold our spaces and almost you guys know me on Twitter, right, when we hold our spaces, we aim to inform. We aim to equip the listener with the fact fact only every time I have a space.

Remember I'm hosting a show, so I will.

Ask questions, to clarify, ask questions as the Devil's advocate.

It's all to give you that information. But we are totally we want to be totally unbiased. We want to have all voices heard. We want you to have the facts. Then you can have your own opinions. Right, that's what we're in to do here. I wanted to give you the facts. Don't never you become a better citizen. So it's a great topic this week. And of course, if you've been pulling this week, this topic has been triggered by the request by the present of Nigeria. Well, I've

So let's set it up for you. Nigeria.

Currently, I pulled up our debts and I'm going to use the official numbers.

Right, So the official numbers go as far by as December twenty twenty four. I know when in June, but this is the official official numbers from the Debt Management Office.

We're going to use thosebannal numbers.

We have as a as a December to tween twenty four a total extandout death EXTANDALUT debt about forty five billion dollars.

It's actually four or five.

Seven and eighty minute if you're not count there, actually figure it's about forty five billion United States does all we have right now? If you look at last year, the number itself did not change that much. Last year we had about forty two billion, twenty three, forty two billion. Well, if you just pick those numbers, you usually wouldn't get the sense of where the.

Change usually coming from.

Right, So what has made the foreign deaths go up?

Guys, I'm building a picture for you. Just follow you get the picture of the building for you. As a twenty twenty four what went up was the eurobonds, eurobones went up. Loans from the China Development Bank also went up. Then alone from the African Development Bank also went up, and of course the bulk of the increase has come from the World Bank. Now, when you look at seferating debts, it's very important that you separate the volume of the debt from the cost of the debt.

The volume, separate that from the deaths from the cost.

What I mean is this, right in twenty twenty three, the total World Bank, so let's say, the total multilateral debt, which is like the World Bank, the African deplum Bank, all Islamic, the Balloon Bank, all that sort of death was about twenty one billion dollars, about twenty one billion dollars. Right, if you come to twenty twenty four, all that debt has gonna buy a billion, So what do about twenty two billion dollars? And the bulk of that increase has

Over the World Bank about one point two. And this is as that December December twenty twenty four. We've taken more loans. We've taken about five hundred million for empowerment. We've taken upon that five million for nutrition and all that kind of stuff. So this is more than the one point to the bulk of the increase that's been to the World Bank, because I've really pay because you've energized borrowing from.

The World Bank and all that. The World Bank debts.

Are really not a problem because the cost of that debt is very, very bhy it's like maybe two percent, and it's spread over a longer period. Right, So even though the volume of that debt has gone up, the cost of the debt itself is still that two percent. You pay your commitment fee and all that, So not a lot going on there. Let's look at eurobon eurobons Nigeria was that about fifteen billion europeons considered about twenty five percent debt, and we're about fifteen billion as at

Nigeria is borrowing. Essentially, we're borrowing.

For thirty years, ten years, fifteen and we're going to pay these guys in dollars.

There is not a beg. It is no development loan with a pure commercial note.

So the problem for Nigeria is this eurobond which make about there's ten percent as at December twenty twenty four. Right, So I also pulled up the total cost of the debt. So I pulled up how much you had in debt as a decembenty four and how much we used to service it. The average is about ten percent. And we're talking dollars now, not my Ira dollars. So we are paying for Nigeria ten percent dollars to anyone that owns our bonds. That's the average cost of our debt.

If you're at the World Bank, if you at everybody, it's about ten.

So it's higher, but the average is.

About ten if you take everything in, so it's ten percent a high cost, Yes, it is.

It's a very very high cost.

Because when you borrow, you use you borrow livel plus there's no more libel, but you borrow based on the London Interbank. It has a new name, the name escapes me. That's what you or based on. Ten percent is a very very high return. Because if you went to the United States today and you put money in their banks, they will pay you one percent. If you bought a US bond, you get about three or four percent. Thats a risk free bond.

By the widow.

It's the d brissin has come down. If you buy a Nigerian bond, they're going to get ten percent. So essentially, when you hear that Nigerian bonds were over subscribed, what happens that the Americans are taking money from Japan. From America Japan is zero percent. You take one at zero percent. You come to Nigeria and you buy federal government bonds or almost securities and you make six to ten percent. So look at the margin in dollars not a dollar terms.

Nigeria is a you see what we'll call it a Christmas intelligi international yields.

We're giving forth a lot of yel to borrow. So up lay that picture for you. Let's come out what's going on in Nigeria. The present wants to borrow.

About twenty one billion dollars, about two billion euros and a few years here and there about like said, forty five trillren when you converted to naira.

What's the problem. It's too much debt. Remember what I said.

The total death Nigeria has as a December twenty forty last because we have it's forty five, So the present wants to borrow fifty percent. About fifty percent of that debt. We don't know from where, So we don't know if it's going to be eurobonds, what's going to be development is We don't know. Until we know, we can do

But when you borrow.

And you increase taxes is the exact same thing. The citizens paid the lending.

The lending, so citizens pay down the debt and the citizens also pay taxes. There's no difference. So when you want to borrow twenty five billion, right, let's just create twenty three billion dollars or forty five trillion.

Essentially, what you're doing is.

That you are increasing taxes by forty five trillion NYRA. So you see, it's easier to borrow than to increase taxes because the citizens do not understand it's the tax. They think it's borrowing that they will not pay.

No, no, no, no.

The government doesn't pay back loans. Citizens pay back loans. Same where the government taxes here, you pay the tax. There's no body called government, there's a little someone called citizen. So if you go back now we want to borrow the forty five trillion, what do we want to use it for?

We don't know.

We haven't been told. What has been the response of the government. The government has said no, no, no, no, hold on, we're not borrowing forty five trillion. We're not borrowing to the three billion. We are simply saying we want to have.

The capacity to borrow that.

If you look at something called the Medium Term Expenditure Framework or the whatever it's called, right that you will see this borrowing there. It just means that we are planning to borrow. Okay, So I went to the medium term exponential framework to take a look at it and see what's in that framework. In that framework, what it is again give you history in the past.

I think it was under a Passenger's regime. He was fighting a lot of it with.

With they stay because a lot of fight and they said he will will just come every year a new budget would come there and there'll be a new surprise either bid that wanted to bench my prize but want to borrow, want to pay back.

So it's like keep us in an.

Elongated plan, a physical plan to say, if you want to borrow, break it down, let's show what we want to do the next two three years. So in some reason that's how we got the medium term exponential of framework.

So the government just can wake.

Up in a budget cycle and say want to borrow a hundred billion, It has to plan that out and say, okay, in the next three years, we're going to borrow a hundred billion, will borrow thirty, will borrow thirty, will borrow thirty.

Okay, that's fantastic.

But if you don't look at the medium term XPoNential framework for five the total amount that Nigeria wants to borrow is about eight trillion. It's one, two three. But right now we're asking for a person to borrow forty five trillion, so he doesn't add even if you take a rounding error, even if you take inflation, is just simply too much to borrow. It's just too much.

Even if you add up to twenty five and twenty six, it's still not up to fifteen billion trillion.

It's still up to fifteen trillion. If you had both years, it's still not fifteen trillion. So why is there a big disparity? Simple the exchange rates in the medium term. Explain framework. Sorry, lots of information, but just follow. It's less than seven hundred dollars. So Nagia had written it's in twenty four and said we're going to borrow eight trillion and we're going to use less than several hundred dollars to one. Then twere to one dollars, So now dollar is about sixteen hundred.

So call it the entire medium ten. Just be sure. Framework no longer can stand under in its scrutiny. It is outdated.

It's got seven hundred that space it's actually six ninety nine, but it's updated. We're now at fifteen hundred, sixteen hundred dollars.

That's not one inflation. Everything is off the charts. So what should the government do when you want to borrow money?

I come to your plan in twenty twenty four, but in twenty twenty five, your currency has appreciated, your implation has gone up, and you can no longer borrow. Same way if I ask you a question, Let's say you plan to buy two Rolls Roys in twenty twenty four because you were expecting to end dollars, and then twent twenty five came. The dollars you were explained to end no longer came.

What would you do? Would you go and borrow.

Going to buy two rolls Roys, or would you say, Okay, I'm going to gonna buy Toyota. I don't have many focials anymore. I'll simply buy a Toyota. In Nineteeriaki Nageria said, We're not only going to buy the two rules reds, We're gonna add two more rolls Roys. We're gonna buy four brand new rule stress and I'm going to fund this for many rules rights who are going to borrow. That's what's going on here guys. So let me give

Right.

This is my last start.

Let's look at actuals now, because I'm giving you twent twenty four, I'm giving you twenty three projection. So let's go back to the time when Nigeria actually spend money on broadmen.

I see what was the result.

Let's compare with oil prices and then see what we can tell them that.

So I pulled up twenty to twenty three.

This is the actual now actual in twenty twenty three, Nigeria said we're going to spend at the oil price. Right, what going to borrow was about seventy five dollars a barrel? Just that's what it said. That oil price is not only just it's a free In twenty twenty three, forget what they said. In twenty twenty three, the oil price on average was eighteen So twenty twenty three, follow the oil price on average was eighty one dollars. What was not just output, just output was one point three million

That Nigeria made from crude oil? No deduction? Was a total amount of money that you made from.

Crude oil when the oil prize were eighty one dollars barrel and output was one point three Guys, we made about five point five trillion, no deductions.

So not paid fifty percent to Shell and the joint venture. Guys.

Just the total our character taming is five point five trillion. It's not a lot of money. The point I'm making us all these projections of forty five trillion borrowing is based on selling oil at seventy five dollars and two million barrels. But I'm sure you guys are in twenteeny three, when we actually sold one point trillion barrels a day at eighty one dollars, we got less than six trillion. We got less than six trillion, which is less than what's in the midium term frame work for twenty five,

This is almost five or six times what we want to borrow or what wanted. The license to borrow doesn't make any sense. The government can't tell Nigerians, Oh, you don't understand what we're doing. We're not going to borrow twenty two billion dollars. If you're not going to borrow it, why did you write a letter to the Assembly and get the red your right to the Assembly to get permission to spend money. That's why letter better letter to get.

Permission to borrow and spend, because the National Assembly can give the President the powers to borrow and spend. Remember Harry printed twenty three trillion without permission for National Assembly.

What happened in the end he had to go back to National.

Assembly and get those that borrowing the ways and means converted to a bond which sits in our bond piece today. That's why we're forty five billion because we've converted to Harry's printing waison means two.

Death bonds, which you are and I and our kids that don't pay. So if you're going to borrow, why are you writing to National Assembly? Doesn't spass a snall test. I've given you guys too much data. Let me hear you that. After all, you've got the floor. Sut what you I mean, I've tried to There's a lot I could see on this. I would want to just flood the space with numbers. But what's your ticket?

What's good? Are we in the death track?

I calibor, Harry, I can, I can?

I can hear you, So go ahead.

Yeah, so let's again get to it. It's you kind of covered that into the picture. I think I'll just go to your question.

We are.

Most people assume we are approached, if not very close.

I personally think we're already there, and I'll just I'll give you us a quick reason.

Twenty twenty four any ending of twenty.

Twenty four our.

That's servicing the sense of the confessional that everything was around.

Of approximately generally speaking, you were and it was a death trap. When you are getting out of forty five percent, that's you're getting your your forty five you're in the depth trap.

Now, But that is that was at seventy three dollars a barrow at the time.

This is before all the at least the last six months, the World Bank requests have come in the dollar, the.

Dollar bond and the rest.

So I assume I guess one of the official figures. We are already above twenty, so already close. But in this whole discussion, most people do factor an NPC a standing them one hundred and fifty three trilling and that is official officially.

With this investigations, it's suspected to be more because then he had had one a series of deals. They have multiple subsidutions scattered across the globe.

Then that's their internal general operations.

Since Carrier left, Carrier there is highly suspected to be much larger than the States, and it's not. It's not mutually exclusive because nnpc's debt directly the first the ability to contribute to the federalal.

The primary the primary base for our revenue.

So if we are already close just looking at Nigeria's current depth standing the percentage of the.

Already there factoring in a NBC. From my perspective, well, well is that.

It's just and the oil prices is the thicker because if if, if, if geopolitical sense was down a bit, let's assume things get worst case SCENARIOIL, it is.

Only going to continue to go down.

Unless it Israel bombs around tomorrow that might that might spike thing as well.

But why is it we're not going to.

Get to the eighty dollars seventy five dollars or very unlikely.

And there's not not any review it would be sustained. So it's just answer the question.

I think we're either already there and the.

Metrics just have to catch up. We're very close, and this is the latest request if in any if it's well I don't expect with.

Robert Stamps and is that they are ready pushed back lys requests more than likely that.

It's a good point.

Yeah, because that's I mean.

We can go into all aspects. But just answer your question.

I think we were we are very close or already there.

And folks asking what is it trap that you understand? What is it in nomer? So let me give it dismissed for trap. It doesn't come to your well. And when she was Minister of.

Finance when she negatility the parents that I believe she was seeing at the actual amount that was borrowed by night year was about five billion. The total amount that was actually borrowed on five or seven billion. What we owe them was forty four billion, So what's the different interest on interest negative amortization finds that I capitalized. So when you have a debt that it is impossible to get out of because the cost of something that debt.

It's just you.

You can only says it does pay the interest, but you can't pay the principle.

That's a debt trap. So you see it both times. When you have this word called payday loans. Maybe you eard one hundred nira.

Then someone says I'll give you an advance on your salary, but you will give me your salary when it comes.

You say, okay.

So the guy gives you fifty ira, but that adding you fifty percent. So in essence, when you get your next paycheck, he takes fifty dollars fifty niner er from your paycheck. How do you survive? You go back to him and say, I want to borrow on that fifteen nine er he gives you. Now you're on in one hundred and fifty, you give him seventy five. You can never pay him as principal, you are just taking real

Every bone number is a one nineteen trillion, one hund three one hundred and fifty three trillion has already been logged in by n NPC.

This is an off balance sheet or in NIER will call it an off fack debt. When NPC owes money, what means to you is that they don't contribute. Going to fuck, So you are paying.

You are subsidizing any pcy because NPC should payble to the fuck.

The government takes that fuck and pays does your roads.

But in this sense, NNPC is not contributing one hundred and fifty three too fark, So you are paying in taxes.

That's what's going on.

So when you then add this to forty five trillion, and remember this is in dollars. Anything is growing in dollars, we're borrowing in dollars. How do you pay back?

I don't give you, guys the figures when oil prices were at eighty one or so.

We only end five trillion. It's not a lot of money. This oil is not a lot of money. We have too many people in Nigeria and we share forty or said to the oil majors.

So I think thanks for that background, let me get see you. Yeah, go ahead, I just answered.

Another major concern is that the n NPC's.

Loans are not as transparent as the in terms.

Of nmpc's loans are not the directing the public, which is something to concern.

And again just just a.

Reminder that.

Is the best.

That is what is publicly not there is suspicion that is significant, maybe not significantly.

It might be higher than that.

And they're doing forward sales. So n NPC sells oil.

The money goes to the lend to the lender, the lender takes his his payment and then sends an ny pc of the balance. So what you might see is that we sell oil and not making any money, you know. But I refer for the last two or three years and it had not done any remittance to the CBN.

Your nera is a derivative of Brent crude oil. Your nera if brent'screwde goes up, never goes up. So if you keep on borrowing in dollars, you are taking more of that nera to attach to that breastprud living the error no support, but business are connected. You can't remember the tax increase when you borrow is a tax increase? See you what your mind sir? You've had what's to talking about? What you think?

Yeah?

Yeah, thank you can for giving me the opportunity to speak once gain Your insights are very informative and everybody what you talked about as well can you hear.

Me, yes, I can clearly, Okay.

So I want to come from this your position into in a more balanced here because.

I also look at the negatives and look at the positive.

So first of all, I want to remind people that you know, we should remember that you know that deficits are not bad things. You know, if you look at the periods from nineteen ninety seven two thousand and seven, most of the G seven round economies.

Around large deficits.

Why is that so because during that period, if you look at the business cycle, you are in this period and every time a country in the boss period, you're going to see that government needs to post a good demand.

So that by busting an argued demand, you see that deathy spending goes up. Now, the issue with Nigeria, and you know talking about disopening is when I when I say that that's and desks aren't really a bad thing, you have to look.

At it from three.

Is an economic An economic machine is driven by three main fasts.

Population growth Nigeria is a tonal the Indiana and what we call productivity growth.

And also leverage what we also call you know, government spending, government expenditure. Now, the issue is that if you use productivity, growth and economy, you generally groom to see that you can increasingly play growth, but at a slower piece. Now, why most countries in the global most in Nigeria addicted to this leverage spending, is because if you're able to reach, you're able to hit economic growth at a much faster pace.

But the issue with you know, this long.

Term spending is that if you keep borrowing, you if you keep borrowing and you keep on financing things that are leads.

Over consumption rather than productive.

So for example, look at Nigeria's wistful government spending in the past, the any DCC projects, the financing of the aircrafts and fleets and all these kind of things that is overcon that is financing via deficity, spending over consumption on things.

That do not yield growth in the economy.

Now, my concern in Nigeria's fiscal position and desastainability. If you look at you know, our government budgets, our government budget deficity GDP, it actually slowed on that tamable from high point forty three point five percent and it actually has you know, forecasted by the World Bank expected to stay within three percent three and a half percent over the next few years.

That g GDP has also came down as well. Well, this is good.

I also want to mention that any economy that is in a budget deficits, you have to be able to use what we call the desastibility rule.

So in the desas satability role, you're saying that primarily struggles the GDP. You know it also public sector.

The GDP you multiply your interest, your interest rates on death or your interested your debts might multiplied by a real economic growth rate.

Now, an issue in Nigeria is.

That if you're or any other economy, if you're running budget deficits, you need to have your primarise.

You need to have to run a primary surplus. That's what brings them top down.

What Nigeria is trying to do is borrows so that I don't know, im maybiely wants to borrow.

Money to you know, maybe increase productivity growth.

But you can only do that when your real economic growth rate is great beater than your real interest rate of your economy.

That is, that is the problem that Nigeria has.

Now, the last thing I want to mention before I give it back to you is that you know, what Nigeria needs.

To do is that they have to go to a deleveraging phase.

And in the leveraging.

Phase, think you have to look at such as debt restructuring such as what was saying, such as what was seen in Ghana and Zambia, or you know, the cuting of wasteful spending. So for example, you guys talk talk about that phasical forecast.

Yes, we want to say seventy five dollars a barrel, two million bars a day.

And you know oil right now trending in the mid sixties and I don't see all even going anywhere or because of opex massive for supply and Trump's really dual you know, economic.

Policy to see to allow US dalers to pump more shield.

So I don't see all you're going anywhere.

And what this does is that it really is quite our physical deficit. So it also also see that we need to have very conservative fiscal focus.

And also another thing that you talked about is you know the brands crude correlation with our currency. Now, I believe I've always said this that Nigeria needs to direstify our export revenue.

Currently export revenue mixed up about a big more than eighty percent of this.

And what we need to do is increase more supply side.

Policies, deregulation and align the ruins of our capitalism flow.

Because once you do that, you allow all the sectors to come and that compete with export revenue so that we're not dependent on this.

Room bus cycle of commodity prices.

Noure is a commodity back to economy, and if commodity back economy, you're going to see a very.

High fiscal deficits. So example, you can.

Look at Gala as well Gada known as you know coco.

Producers, which is touched in that currency.

I just read read recently that you're exporting you know, more good exports and that's going to bring him twelve billion.

And we have potential mining outputs are going to this about more than twenty percent. So there's something that I'm saying with her mirror. Is this something we can do now? Not sure, but long term I think we should look at that.

Yeah, I think some great yeah also yeah yeah.

And also the last thing I just wanted to say, because I must speaking again after this, I just want to say this need for their sustainabilities you know, paramounts across the global economy. You know the US already looking at you know, everybody's complaining about the deficit TCJA, and that is why you're seeing that.

You know, the Trump tires are there to not only bring manufacturing, but they want to bring down the deficits.

Because in my opinion, if you're not in a war, if you're not in a recession, if you do not.

Have financial if you if you don't have financial system stress, you should not run a budget deficit more than six percent Nigeria broad desk to three percent undtable.

But then again, like I said, in the debt or the ability role, you have to run a primary.

Surplus, so then you bring your GDP down. So that's that's all I was saying.

I mean, great points. When you mean you're not talking again, please hanger, don't go anywhere. So I have this, So just let's say this right, So thank you for making that point that debt deficits are not bad. As a matter of fact, you cannot point to any major economy on Earth.

That has not to borrow to grow.

Borrowing, even if you are making record revenues, record revenues do not come at common systems pace.

But your experenses are consistent, so you must borrow to cover that you know back and forth and also to invest in infrastructure which you pay. So thanks for making a point that we're not against death, we're not against borrowing. You must borrow in Nigeria's case to bridge that infrastructure gap. I'm not along with that. I think let's highlight this now.

From Soco to to that delta. I don't think you.

Will get anybody saying what you're behind is project management capacity. But will anyone talking about debt sustainability because most Nigerians understand they won't want to buy a house. You go to the bank and you borrow to buy a house, and that's a good debt. The problem is that Nigeria is borrowing. Well, we're not count is good while borrowing

Let me give you the one that drives me up.

Nigeria is borrowing in dollars to give nira to poor people.

Say it again, Nigeria is borrowing.

In dollars to give naira to poor people. Will the poor pop will pay back? No, So down the line, I just don't pay that loan back in dollars, but we give it out in naira.

So essentially it's a we're.

Supposed to use our internal taxes to give naira or borrowing naira and give out there nothing to social skill. People are poor, give them money, that's fine social welfare. But to go to the World Bank and borrow they would argue, oh, it's very very low.

Interest rate, but why why are you borrowing in dollars for that? That's what's making the what bank side go up. This is the problem where we borrow for salads. We call it budget support.

And if you do that, you created that physical hold in the future that you have no revenue to pay back on.

That's the problem.

This twenty two billion we're going to borrow, what's it going to be used for? No one has told us. They've simply told us we are not borrowing that money.

In a year or two.

But when you do it eventually borrow it, what are you going to use it for?

No one?

That's the first red flag. If you can see flashing, that's the red flag flag. That's why what's what I happen.

In this space.

We've held the same topic on this space two or three times now about death, death, sustainability and borrowing.

You've got to.

Be transpaparent with the tax payers. You cannot come to Nigerian and say Nigerian's want to borrow forty five children. Listen who hard it printed twenty three trillion. The cost in a quarter of that point was a trillion. That's what's still you were paying cib and before they connected to a bond was a trillion. So the interest we're paying to the CBN was more than the what nature the ferragrament was making from crude oil and gas, and that was just twenty two trillion. Now we're talking about

IMPII is very very high.

We just lost the bridge in Maqua, so food is gonna go up with miss impisition is gonna go up.

I don't know what's happening right.

So I saw a guy on Twitter celebrating that the federal government drew so cook borrowed money at nineteen percent and it was over subscribed several times.

That's actually a red flag.

It's telling you that Nigeria's are no longer taking risk. Nobody wants to invest in a business anymore. So everybody's running for safety of the federal government and are willing to take nineteen percent even when inflation is twenty three percent debribased, it was twenty three percent rebased to twenty three So Nigeria's attend the government that listen.

The environment we.

Find ourselves in Nigeria is so bad that we are willing to take nineteen percent then take a risk and start the business. You don't celebrate that. There is not to celebrate that. Look at America and the US. Good up to five percent. They're shaking. It's a big problem that their users are going to five percent.

They wanted to come down. You don't celebrate high yields.

You don't celebrate over subscription based on how yield. If you want to go gentgy, you were bond it was abus subscribed. People came home with it to celebrate. And yes, you celebrate that there's confidence in Nigeria. But people are only investing because you are paying them seven six ten on a dollar base. That's why they're investing.

You don't. It doesn't call so.

See you let me give you back to you just in case you had. I doesn't clarify that point even about the boys or the issue.

But what we're borrowing for.

Yes, like I said, the boring is not the issue.

It's just what we're boring using theseus, using these.

Step I would say the deficits because it's deficity spending. Yeah, we're using this to do in terms of productivity good because let me tell.

You once you once if it's borings additional level, you're going to see that and niest productivity isn't at a as a very sustainable that are going to see that our debts will rise faster than our income. And if we are debt rights faster than income, I'm sorry. You are you are screwed because we are going to be spending more on interest payments over you know, supply side policies. That is why I even think you know, I agree

Sure that the productivity side is efficiently comver.

We don't have proctifically growth in a population of.

Twenty and thirty million. If you say this in Europe, people call you. They will say what you're crazy.

In Europe, for example, people are complaining about Globard rates.

If you have lbald rates, you don't have the sufficient productivity goes to run economy.

An economy, we have a bulging population group of twenty and thirty million people and yet productifically growd wrong, yet the government is boring.

Doesn't make sense to me. You can borrow money China. That is why we were having double.

G G people from when they year they entered the WTO so when they started having this real estate crisis. You can borrow money and you can grow it on me with productive That's that's my main issue. And also with the n piecing thing as well. I think it's stupid in terms of you know, the wind we forecasted, the the our budget, you know, the way we forecasted in terms of you know, seventy five.

Dollars a barrel, you know, oil is not. Oil is not going up. I bet you oil is not going to go.

Past It's not going to go past tenty five dollars in this point economic climate.

Because even if you say, you know, Goldman said a few weeks ago, a few days ago that they believed that the best edge for your portfolio is to have gold and oil.

Yes, you can have oil to oil, but if you have oil in portfolio, I'm sorry, it also brings down, you know, you know.

Some kind of capital returns, because oil.

Is not going to go up.

Even if you know, at.

Israel we have this realist crisis because of the oversupply and because all peck plus are increasing.

You know, the founder eleven thousand barrel produced. I don't know when they said they were going to do, but that's what they projected. You're going to see that oil prices are going to do and process's still spare capacity, you know.

And then Trump as well begging the oil execs in the US to drill more even though I believe that that doesn't you know, they wouldn't do it because they don't want to make losses on your investments.

So that is how it TEA is grow.

You can borrow money.

I don't have no issue in the country borrowing every country. The de seven countries are brown tons of money.

But you have to fix the.

Productive the decide. That is how you get your supposible.

I think last thing I'll say, you know, Scott person said said something about set something similar that they.

Will grow their way, they will go that way out out of that crisis by But I said, you can't do that if, like you said, I if you use.

That sustainability rule, which is you know, paramount to any IMF.

Fiscal If you use that susimility which says that the really interests rates, your real economic boot has to be greater than interest rates. Then if you do that, you can definite spend and then you can bring down you can.

Your dergy people doesn't rise.

But if you don't have the the productivity bout rates and you want to suspend, You're only going to increase your death and devasity sustainability much more higher.

So that's just what I want to say.

Okay, And again, just to be clear, Nigeria's growth rate is lower than population, more than productivity.

Whatever, very verge and I'll give you a good example. Let me just just give an example that the bridge inqua.

If you guys don't know what the bridge maqua means there not, then the good the food from the north comes to the south via that bridge.

It's gone. Now to the floors. Okay, where are the reels. We have no reels.

The grail from Legos to Canoe it's narrow gage. Narrow gage, follow guys, narrow gage from Legos to Cano. We have built standard gage from Legals to Ibadon. Then we stopped. Okay, we're now building a rail from Kano to Maradi, Innisia. That rail line is standard gauge. But the rail line in Karduna, the one that is in the north presently is narrow gauge. So follow what I'm saying. In the whole of the North they only have narrow gauge apart from the one that goes from a Buja to Karduna.

Let's assume that rail is completed tomorrow. Who would use it? Nobody? Why because it's not connected to any rail line coming.

To the south.

It's a standard gauge rail line. The entire rail line the north is narrow gauge. What means if you want to send food, well, if the would go from Carno, then stop at the end of Cano.

We can't put it on the rail that is going to Legos or for tackled because those are narrow gauge.

You see the point about how we spend on Nigeria and Governor that I said, Okay, let us continue that standard.

Gauge from from a Badon or even go to Kaduna. Connect the Kaduna rail that the standard gauge to Cano.

So you're not having.

Network from Nije, Jigawa, Cano, Kaduna, Abuja.

At least get to Abuja.

Then you now connect the rail line that is an off farm from Worry to a Buja bring or you have food in the north from that is what we haven't done that but we're borrowing money to.

Build that infrastructure. So it's not all in fast structure. It's good is the productivity gap? See who's talking about We are spending money on quote unquote capital productivity, but it's not adding to the productivity. It's not going to be connected. It's like building a power plant in the middle of nowhere. Meanwhile, Legos needs power, which is what we did. We build power plants in the southwest. The

She wanted the nets for reserves right un fortunately for correct So so we're boring more than the morning.

Okay, what.

Good, afternoon?

Good?

I think.

The first of all, I totally alive with your hydeology towards you know, we always say he was have this popular say that we don't have the revene problem, we have the spending problem.

And I fully alive with that because I.

First listened to the global picture about globals, you know, at dubs and the world it's said that about debt is about one hundred treasure dollars, and so I hadn't moving towards the one twenty in his pace faster than the speak of light and coming back home, you know. After listening to Jim Stemond, I said that we're expecting

Liquidity financing and to run different things.

And from the crypto to stock market, it's a derivative of the bond market. For example, the staple coin, for example, has a large office and exposure of US bone market. You look at the mortgage also has so the bond market is very systemic. And when Dan was saying that we expected crack, you don't take that statement likely coming back home when you see the kind of shows happening the go by economy, and yes we are coming.

From the bottom.

Yes we got upgraded, but muti, the fiscal policy looks right than But our spending problem.

If you read the empty article about the presidents celebrations for the first two years, you could see they have concerns about the fact that we still spend like a crypto body, you know, And I get scared because cal Yes, the excuse is that the twenty four billions is the Federation of the Federal government is the span of two years millium minimum.

But the concern is that.

If you look at what the FAS structure, we spent money on stat ale posts, unfunctional refery, guest houses, government houses.

You become scared.

Because the list I don't want to spend the money on the list a lot.

If I'm talking about the money because we look wouldn't spending money on you know.

Definitely they make you look beautiful.

Who's talk about spending money in the FIRS structure. But when you look at the really FRAS structure, you get worried. And I'm so happy to be able who spoke on Bloomberg and spoke about the FRA structure deficits in Africa.

And I'm sure it was trying.

He was looking more on the macro rather than like you. But you know that in problems that language the problems and that you.

Look at Seminal and yours with etricity and them to GDP is becoming is about when you add that amount of money.

So it becomes scary when the Finance Ministry now explains to you that there's what we call productive tapt des is debt.

You know, whether it's useful.

For purpose or it's useful and historical da that show that nastbs has not been used productivity efficiently.

And that's my major concern.

So come he goes back to the question of why this mess because you see what's scares micaldo is not even just the opportunity because then give you a small sample.

Well discussing MYCHD is you know it takes to you.

It takes a child if he's malnutrition and he goes to the age of eighteen. If things go well for larger for example, maybe experience or he happens to get good things just because the child has had reformed years, the child cannot go beor that levety he might be build up intellectually. In my beauty, both physically metabolic healthwise, he has already been compromised because there certain age, is a certain age where your body will group your eyes to group perpe.

For eighteen for guys twenty one. So the fact that that it implores children uneducated.

I look at the span decades right now and you had another ten years to that age, it means that they become more the labor side. So it means we're having more like it is to friend for it means that we are having much.

Risk in future. So and here I come in and play. It becomes very scary that where are we able to get the financing in future from? And the argument is that government definitely needs to pose deficis.

But we know that.

The major problem in the administration, not towards this administration over the last decade has been peas kind discipline, wasteful spending.

And you know, I just hope that the resins who come to then you can't just with the young government much national then has also it seems like they.

Want to keep your country, mostly because.

Onely gets to wonder why you're building infrastructure to know where in the unit is not connected to the north, to the southeast and not aligned with really network networks.

The airports that we build so far just three major briding about two percent traffic.

The friaries that we have are looking like corps and you know they are just fts labyrisies.

So the question is why don't do all them then? Or the fire government also.

I think he has he has kept his cabinet more polklader equmic.

We still have no business having more.

Than mister card. To be honest with you, you know, before I drop them, I think these are the.

Questions we really need to ask the government because well because say the government has shown dissensing in certain reforms. The critical things are helping the populised, education and culture, health, it's still by you know, the appad Nigeria's consumption if

Dan Coote is bringing.

Production has really helped stabilize increase exports, particularly in refined crude Advertizer, but they feared that the people who release Opeka said that they're going to production in July. Mixed me also very scared because the Saudeast and the Russians they are trying to get makesha.

So he puts my right in.

A in a kind of parabolic situation where we now have to create our good reprises.

They have sixty dollars because the Trump has really.

Spoken aggressively on the fact that he really wants to keep inflation down.

And he wants to oation.

So can That's the way I think depth this is not it's not just the call a banket, because what is going to.

Be happening to Nigeria is not just.

We don't have no series.

We're spending like as if we're in Crates or the Southeast, where we able to understand that years we are already taking the right drugs, but we have also forgotten that they aren't. The poltics in our body really requires enough metal bodhism for wants to kind to the next stage. And that is my fear because when you eat without when you take drugs without eating, we can and inorganical ability.

So that's the question for you guys, see you everybody, why can the government bring the list to see this is what wants used the borrowing for the mouth.

What can just come on and say this is what we want to spend money on.

And it doesn't work.

It doesn't work.

You mean, you know, I really looked play.

But if you look at the temple of loan reasons for planting, it makes a lot up sense.

You know, I don't think see the one of the problem I think we have. It's not the formation of ideas. It's the implementation of policies that's the major problem. So for example, you know, you look at the cost of running operations that you have.

You know, I listened to I think I.

Can't remember what was looking in space when I had.

To engage to compare the cost of part line in Venezuela.

Rockie. Theial way even.

Has a lot of risk.

Russia psygra rest behind you that one want to play and I foind out that the money contracting and you are very expensive.

So the person is you have to look.

At all these problems before and that's why the valizer will tell you that it's not the information of what they want you to wan is the money going to be used? Andially sure that the niger public is right.

You're coming from the government that spends less than word Google mix in a quarter.

But you look at the the type of presidency. We have one of the most expensive in the world, you know, and it's really a concerning across Africa. We're matual aliments or for celebrators.

So I think it's not just even about I think the question is you shouldn't use our fonts and the funds that were wasted. What happened the finerary issue for example, bellions of dolars.

That will send tend them kits to Seal University from busic education.

Is we're saying what happens next?

You know, we had cases of somebody building several houses now which are so.

It's a product.

So we have an wether economy where we have no horizontal real line.

You can't go from stay in Nasara to you by real It's not possibly some genetics.

That's the problem because look at the US, for example, the US has used the control didn't.

Go with res was like you you will see that the connected economic.

Lives EXAs New York is the connect I don't see example, can negos and are economic lins you know, and there's mtage economic linses amplfies economic community, its.

Processes and prosperity.

Because already that's that line is business interactive.

So I think go back to you need to this formation next.

Yeah, and again we have an economy again, I see you.

We have an economy again where there is no power supply even for twelve hours for a company.

To plan and say I want to produce for twelve hours straight. They can't get that.

The economy where you can go by road from say Legos or Ugo or say so so to another.

Part of the region on an express road.

We have them by name, but you can't go from one region Nigeria to another region Nigeria with an express road. Just step on the brakes, close your eyes and just go.

So.

I'm because infrastructure, no hanging fruits, no handling food that you cannot investing.

See you go ahead.

I just want to add something. What about what don't we look at it like this?

I like to look at things.

From a different perspective.

I agree with what all you're saying, but what if let's say, all this is being equal, we decided to move this deficity spending, this government spend, whatever it may be, what form it is, we moved into the private sector. That's I think what you're doing.

Is you're creating more injection of injection to the circular for the economy, or rather with drums.

So if you move the government spending, you move.

The fiscal you move the fiscal spending into the private sector.

I think a lot less of this out of the public public sector.

You're going to see that all those all those economic activities they're talking about you in ineffectively, sorry, would bring.

Our deficits and GP that which is actually a beta metrics.

See what you're saying that we should issue bonds the private that's what you're saying.

No, No, I'm saying that we should move the move fiscal spending. It could be issue of bonds, yes, for most of it should be in growth.

Supply aligned for example, if we're.

Giving roads for example, why don't we instead of give an example?

Right, So I read a few weeks ago that the United States private for example.

Private credit rights, private credit is not going to be the main financing of infrastructure because because what trumperdentition or doing podcasts, it isn't going to be any you know, anyone is left to you know finance, you know in the US airports terminals, you know.

Utilities, all that kind of thing. So what I'm saying is, if we know that we have a debt problem, why don't we spending Why don't.

You move that spending into the private sector, allow more of these individuals.

To come and say, Okay, we're not going to do the more these projects. Let's let these who have more economics to skill and.

More expertise, have more experience, come and you know, finance these activities.

Because doing in effectively that you're bringing you these guys, and these guys have enough casual what you're effectively doing, they will start to go to see if using the automatics, you're going to see more increase in your tax revenues.

So that's much more withdraws if he works like that. That's what I'm thinking about.

But don't we have that the rate.

Don't we have the tax risky where you can you can build a road on infrastructure and you get a tax credit. I think Empthony is supposed to be building the road in a way to the bonnet that doesn't work.

I think the problems I think it's beyond that because you can be passed. For example, look at the likes of Transcope exclusure there and you have the problem. They have governments and don't.

Pay for their services.

How do you want how do you want.

To pass to try when God make you sell don't pay bills? You know, and look how happened when the journey and we pretty in the movie as electric.

The content is not just the cons is not just moving. The question is that understand that limits. You have research that was okay, I that k goes to them.

They are learning the cutter car aspect of their economy.

And trust me, people need to understand that despite.

The fact that has at opportunities, this the the the colot. It's very tough for foreign to align in sol or the richest guys in the quantity depe So the fact that is already busy with petrol, the reoman is busy with that's busy the electric. It was that we really need to count size. Yes, I create the fact that private that she needs to take control. But the honest government governmental paviews.

But just the payers is a coupla lists.

You know from ours spoke about want people that big taxes in the country.

You know, I mean, I'm metal access.

So the question back.

When the who.

What do you keep the public?

So the government need to this the example. If you want to have the small functional government, yes it's possible.

If you want to as we have the big government that really wants to achievement, then you want the examples.

That's what.

I mean.

I like to see what see you say. I'm saying wlready have it, and I think look at it this way. If you want to build a real line across the southeast or not these states, you can have just if the government has to come and pass those laws that would say in the states, for instance, rights of eminent domain taxes will be deferred to make the project bankable.

That's when you get the real productive.

What I said, if you're a Nigerian exporter or importer or trader, you cannot drive from one region Nigeria to the other.

Region on a on a six lane clean expressway.

We have all this express us by name. But try and drive on the legal suite bad on expressway. That's the one they've done.

But go out of your but go west and try to go towards being. Then you start to see. Okay, I there's a video of going from portacle to our bar. Look, I've seen that video. I posted it myself. I s every ten meters a policetation's a police checkpoint and I'm not exaggerating.

There's a video every ten.

Meters you can see next to the next checkpoint and that's an express road. So if you don't take away those self invisiblettom next, the country can't grow.

There's no productivity.

If a truck carrying food will one hundred times for policemen to give them money one hundred times or minimum minus.

Yea as as that and said you know they.

In the zone sitle toom government is.

Trying to control.

I get what you has said. He miss a lot said, but I also feel that the government really needs to work with.

This government and look in addressing honestly, if you really want to hit high intensity need to invest.

In the East. You can.

I'm going to share the video. It's just crazy that it's I'm not exaggerating the videos of my tar. I have to find it again.

It's literally fifteen or ten meters literally when you stop for this police guy, you can see the next guy.

I'm not.

I'm all for Listen. We have drones today. We have a I today.

If they really are serious, you can use drones and a and track every movement on that road, every.

Movement you can. The thing will take the picture of the number plate to tell you that someone is suspected in the state here. A there said technology they have here.

If you drive into a county and your number plate is wanted for a crime in another place, they pomust be elected that this car has come to this county.

They will know exactly.

Where you are and I can just drive on and meet you there. It's not an expensive tackle. It just drove me becoming like an read number plates. So I'm not saying that, you know, it's it's to have a checkpoint every ten meters.

That's an overkill. But let me get omar. Has he changed his name Bright? I don't know which long name is Bright? What's this long name? Omar lua b look bright you've come again.

Go ahead.

I'm doing very well, thank you, sir.

Yes, sir, Yeah, you've had a conversation where we agreed that we must borrow with vi great debts and depicits have with stimulants for economic growth. We don't mind the government borrowing for infrastructure.

We're worried about the volume that they're borrowing without the should we say the disclosure on where these points are going to be going to we are.

Worded and it's not borrow right.

Nigerao be in a debt trap because oil revenues are declining while the cost of debts are going up.

What's you take.

So for me? I kind of when I check that MPTE, I regnize that it's a plan. It wasn't something that is gonna hap so was a plan that needs to be approached.

And the reason that I wouldn't want to give myself Eddy And the reason I'm saying this is that I think I think we pay too more emphasis on the product we left the steps don't request penny.

You just mentioned something about infrastructure, about airport.

We just talk about it that briefly in the person so many states are building airport.

Why do they need airport? And that's when I have a problems. We got federal government at every time we say further government is doing reckless man. And I think the reckless meaning it's not limited to the federal government.

State governors are telling you categoricality your phrase that well started borrowing and the money they are getting, they're not being productive with it, rather building projects that are not that cannot even help the economy of their state.

I'll give you an example. That's what that court we wrote you.

You're talking about hour passed through that road.

Three or four weeks ago. I was in owing. I don't know what happened.

I don't know if you remember a week did something.

To their flights, so I have to travel from over it to catch the flight.

In Ptacles and for me, for me, I was ashamed for the state governors.

From that part of the world. And let me please people.

This is one thing that I just realized this country is quite big that let's agree that if govert is too slow, if this, if NAGA is gonna function properly, well, then the state governor.

Especially now that you're getting money, especially now that you're getting money.

There are state governors, there are fifteen federal route and at.

The end of the didn't get their money back. I mean, it's it's so painful for.

Me that I went to worry from the village where I was to over the township. It takes us only thirty five minutes because they did that rule. Even though that rule that was done beside the drillage on the side that ought to be convert because let's open in that. What five days I spent on that plays four accidents, Let's leave the other side.

Oh my pot is that.

Each state governors decided to spend and I think this has been always my argument. Please forgive me about all these our physical discipline blah blah blah discipline. If the state governor decided to imprest a million a billionaire into food into let's even say five hundred million into agriculture on a monthly basis simple thing.

A lot of them have planned that. It's not cultivated, it's just there. If you decide to say.

That with this five hundred million, I'm gonna buy tractors, I'm gonna buy.

The things I need to do.

Farming on a monthly day is just spent five hundred million. Do yourself to go to those villages because I passed through villages and those villages.

By six pm, seven pm.

You pass through those those villages, you see your five grandchildren fifteen between fifteen and twenty one.

You were standing by the junctions of.

Those places because there's no light, so meaning that touring the day, they're not productive.

This is not limited to await. I was going from a Buja two weeks ago. I drove from a Buja.

For after eight or nine years, I've not driven off that road. I drew from a Buja to Legos and between Abuja and Law of that that road is there. And the reason I'm saying this is that I don't want to us stay in and do these calculations that were me.

If I'm going to borrow money. In fact it is me that I'm going to borrow money. I would rather burrow.

I say that, look this tax, the tax to credit that they did that I'm going they used to fixing or show key everything and is using to fix those other roles.

Why can't we open that thing up to so many companies in Nigeria to make it like legs. But the Expressway. Like you said, I spent between a Puja to get.

To to a Kitty, not to get to or on those states. It takes me almost eight hours. In the process, I lost my exhausts. And when I use that road distly, that comes to my head is that I can't imagine how any logistics business can work.

And I say, let's not deceive ourselves, because I met quite a lot of trucks that got broke down in that bad rule and the rest of them. Sure now, and I even show that we're stayed rules for me. If I have a highway that passed through my state, I am telling you as I will spend that rule. I will spend money to fix that.

I don't.

I don't interrupted, but let me just say this right So, the issue is the federal borrowing is also state and federal. Nometter that this borrowing we're talking about. It's not the federal governmental borrowing. It is federal and state. And what we're trying to talk about is that the borrowing is going to create a death trap. You are talking about the effects of the Maral administration. I get it, and I think I suppose your points you are making. But the issue we are trying to raise.

Is this you have to borrow? Right?

I hear you saying the figure If you borrow this for forty seven forty five trillion and you use it for to build a new real way to masure republic, it's not on our productivity if it's not nected to the existing railways.

And the point is not the borrowing, but what.

That boy.

That is going to there's the one that she's going to the southeast from the how do you know?

How do you know?

No? No, no, no, that can wait. So so the team for me is like I said that borrowing.

No, I'm asking because there's no I don't have the record. And again you said the medium term framework. The medium term framework has eight trillion in it? Does you have forty five has eight trillion in it? That's number one.

Number two.

If he says a plan, then were they right into the to the Senate to approve it. If it's a plan, it wasn't let a force it letter just to say, oh, where they have midium ten framework? Want to remind you of that? Just be reminded.

No, they are right into the Senate to approve That's why the Senate is centered as to the Committee on Debt, Remember the Senate President said, I afforded to the Committee on extern out Debt to reive what the committee do.

Committee will skip the recommendation. They need to be approved. This is only without approval. And the Ministry of Finance and the DMO then issued the securities to borrow. So that idea that it's the sack, it doesn't follow that the process is so just as I've played out, you have got to write an intimate a Senate that you'd like to borrow, then the center that approved that borrowing, and then you can borrow exactly what bo did. But in the end, but having printed twenty two trillion, he

Show how are you doing? So let me add my brother back show you've got the flopleas, go ahead, let me add you.

I think you can't do good inning everyone.

Yeah, So it's actually been a very interesting topic of extremity also for its contribution. So for me, I think, like everyone said, borow is actually not a big deal, but we've got a.

Problem as to where the borrowing is actually going through like it.

For instance, Abercuta in the States as a more flyovers than Manchester in England. What and Abercuta in Uburann States. Yeah, has more fly overs than Manchester in England.

That's an interesting start.

And then Manchester has I mean several many, I mean several cars than Albercuta in Uburn, States. So it makes me question why Halbercuter should actually have more flyovers than the very economic, comically right brands are city like in England, then like in Manchester, like everywhere, every every road actually leads to somewhere. But we have a situation in that where once you leave the major road then you are

Economy within the rural areas.

So we have we have still governors actually deliberately neglecting the rural areas. So what what kind of roads are we actually expecting in in this or in this kind of scenario, which is actually so I mean so so bad.

And also I also think we.

Also have a huge problem with accountability. Just on just for precent Honarized TV, a TV presenter was actually question in the minutes out of works as through the cost pakilometer for for the coastal road and right on tree you can see we can all see the reaction from

That's my submission.

Colue.

Yeah, someone just checked priest and said it's actually true, that's true.

I didn't know that. It's interesting, is it?

Because Albercota is expanding, so they're building, you know, in anticipation of the population of cars.

No, no, no, calu. I see it as a kind of misplaced priority.

Maybe flyovers are actually cash cows for governors.

And also true if you look at this, I mean, if you look.

At the recent project in notion, you can see also flyovers are flying around in ocean and these are this, I mean, this is an economy way by not every ousehold of cars. So Abercuta is actually about if not triple four times are the population of Manchester and Manchester. As there are many more cars in Manchester, far many more cars in Manchester than Abercuta. So which actually yeah, which actually shows that people are really there are far less cards in Abercuta. So now in Manchester, like I

So I think it's actually a very larger problem.

And also I mean also linking to the fact that our governments or I mean governors and governments actually spend on things that are not relevant.

Yeah, you know, I saw I saw an infographic from nineteen seventy three and it was like a train shadow in nineteenth three. So it was like, if you want to go from port haar Court to Legos, it will take you three days. So you do Protacod, then you go to Kaduna, then the trainer goes from Kaduna to Legos. If you want to go from Legos to Cano, it takes you a day because just goes straight from Legos to Cano. That was in nineteen seventy three. Today nothing

And I noticed because I've gone on a train from Jos to Legos and you'll go dross.

You go all the way to kavan Chan. Cavan Chine is.

Where you have to changeover to go from the northern line to the from the western line to the eastern line.

You change over in Cavent, China. It was built by the British. So look at the point I'm making. All the oil Nigeria has earned. From nineteen sixty to date, Nigeria.

Has not added one one one, one brand new line, one brand new line of reil. The only brand new line is gonna be the one from Abuja to Kaduna and the one from attack By to Worry.

Attack Ber to Worry is for a jacuta. It's not for commercials to carry iron oil. We just built train stations to make that look like it was only for iron ore the one from so Literally, from nineteen sixty to date, Nigeria has only added The only brand new.

Line is this attack By one which was built in nineteen eighties. Nineteen eighties, I saw that Shain with my eyes. In the nineteen eighties, you was better attack back to ward I saw it. And then the one that goes from Kaduna to Abuja. Since nineteen sixty, all them crude oil money. It is to go from Portacos to Legos. You will go from Portarcot, you will go all the way to cafan Chan. Then you will change a train

Now the bridge and morkwise down. I told people on Twitter qualm buy food. No one who told me with twitch power, how do you start food? Because if you're not talking about this tomato and pepper, where are you gonna start it? If he buys the book?

This is this is this is this serious question in the year twenty twenty five, that Nigeria you cannot stop pepper and tomato because there's no power. So we you know, sometimes we speak fly like we speak these flowery things. We do this fowery project. But was the economic impact of this? Why are we borrowing if we borrow this money for power, if we brought if we borrow this for five trillion and they tell me in ten years we're going to have power to the first of Naga.

I don't think an about will complain. I doubt anybody will complain. Yes, I doubt it not you're hanging there.

Thanks for that.

I'm gonna have to investigate more.

But thanks for bringing at attention and let's get the tech you're here, they will get there and they will go to the go ahead.

You ready, go ahead, You've got the yes, sir.

So like the Complex said, he I'm listening to a person well in thinking that what I'm like and.

There's really wrong.

With Seriously, there's really what you're going advantage.

Worries I death.

They are, they are, they are, they are banding, they are al they do they see for what they say.

In fact, there's one who What my concern is, what is the.

Day dealing with all the wrongs that they are going now.

I think they put out in quest to.

The National to the Senate that they are the national stategy that they're going to do with the olaws.

You know.

So now the problem that couple people have I listened to a tree from my life. See where someone on the show would say, and what you saying that they.

Request for.

That's on the National sateergy to see that letter that the president stands to the National State to see what they're there is.

A list of projects that have died to that partibularity quest to go.

I think they get he said that that is that's why I requests and I tell them to I don't know whether they.

Sell it or that's at because I don't have any problems with the reports.

That they are making, but the jeers should not be in the that of not what is that's what what project that these do?

Please do described to do the doing.

So I'm motioned to see whether anybody involvements do all say oh, this morning that we're going to be taking this is worth and work and what has.

Re tied to and I think they would be it will be that's what this is that I'm doing that work.

I don't.

I would not sit down and think that they need they will have in those moneys with.

House have these specific budget, it's a specific project that's going to.

Go to and also then having its include the one.

On the ground, whether that goose monies are used.

For those specific futures that they have realed for they are.

I don't really I'm I an one band and MTV fun sold.

Than I athletes name, but I don't.

I don't.

I don't.

You can you can pet from home, but I don't think too that they judge give your money and I.

Really need this is spectum about what you want to do with you and whatever you want to deal with them.

So that is my worry.

My worry is our system.

Is not you know, I've just wanted to do what I did you be doing now I just want to say contain Also.

That's why are you going into this doing well as I do? How it's time before Bloody and Glady said they were playing five to sixty on subsidy.

Now because of it, literally.

And of that, I know that the subsidy like as women talk to you today, the.

GOO governments who playing good for tempty level to subs.

If you can't consider.

Informational, I'm inspluture inclusion or whatever.

If Guard was playing five to sixte years old, so we should be playing.

Your arm.

So now what's the argument that they were people in government.

Is deeping is that they are sure that the same government is getting a wrong one from the series so many thing he says, do a got your fine, I got you.

The move stops in me by letter by left one night composed and he said, quitted there it is sold.

You worry and tell.

Pretty here and we're so old put there.

So we all went to like now you invested in the nineties and NY two hundred every two thousands.

Were so deep this unspe investors that we in the world.

You will see this video was view like this.

Pretty there stall with Japan. I mean it moves, so you wanted to the move stops to be because.

Of set of shortly were so can't time of my first.

Bosses bosses all which lived up and we will see shop that you will see this good things that you or they wanted to do.

Subs what allowed to do so in anyway they wanting for that they shopping?

Now what this most of.

The government saying that they are.

Taking money from the something and reed to.

Stay for the almost stay.

The ones how.

To speak the morning what I'm set up?

What don't they set up?

In fact flashing pudd, I said this level through the scud.

So that Glen that this is.

Not making doesn't make any someday that doesn't.

Want to be going.

But I trust you to poltics go young politicians.

To cretizing.

I'll yeah, thank you submission. I did a tweet and I said the I like him with an analogy that what they was to operate all the Nigerian and to remove the pendict without anaesthesia. And then the day after the operation and told the guy to go on a marathon. That's how I see it. I think they were being to clever for the world. Maybe maybe they were overthinking this. They were going to buy bosses, but they had a

Which the president of the one, I don't know if that was a plan or if it was that, don't know if he planned that first.

I think they were ready for the announcement was made.

But when says somebody is gone, revenues came in immediately, because somebody removal is a revenue event, So revenues came in. And then they did not follow immediately. They were waiting for CEE energy bosses that are not not that are being deployed in masks as are to day, and I think that's a problem. So they allowed the suffering to hit. Like you said, PTFO satality.

So even when you are paying more for your fuel, you look to your university, you saw that it was being rebuilt.

You looked at your rules, you could see the roads being built. You are like, okay, I get it.

This morning if I'm pain is rebuilding my inversity, I get it, But you will struggle those times they were sharing rice the most.

Subsidy and there were sharing rice.

You will struggle to put your finger on what these states, the federal.

And the local governments have done with the subsidy removal.

Because we're more, subsidy is a revenue event, the revenues doubled.

States got more with system.

State governors doing wonders in their state. Since some states governors that are paying for nonsense in their states. So it's a mixed back. But still even the own federal goverment itself, what has it done because we're all federal, not all the states, but we are all federal, what have they done?

Well, there's a time they are appointed Issa also right to sort of monitor he then report that these states have done this. I mean PTF was also like this.

The federal ran it, but it was a bit of the states that were over the rose on by the states and the federal did it.

So I just think that's the point that I'm having today is trust deficits.

Right now with Taber administration, because they would only trust them to borrow forty five trillion and spend it because they got money from field subsidy and they spend That's just.

My take on that. Ben, I have you here, Ben go ahead. Thanks, Thanks octly, Ben, you've got the flow.

Yeah, thanks for interesting in space.

I like this just based about the subsidy removal and the sort of politians, you know, whatever the government had, whatever the was pushing the effect.

To subsidi remover.

The idea of okay, remote subsidies.

So you know, immediately the press of transportation would go the idea of okay, let's cushing the effects on transportation by buying.

The bosses c engine bosses. I don't know why they're obsessed in vers NGI boats. It's a good one that's clean energy.

So they're saying that.

They say, let's buy the boss and you know, and provide some sort of discounted you know, transports for.

University's.

Yeah, the government governor his name again.

Fubar actually well actually for ours, government actually put a lot of bosses.

I wouldn't say they were enough, but they were just enough to be visible. You could say, okay, if you go to this place.

In university, goes to this place in university, stands around therefore a while at the same time in the morning you would see a boss come.

Bosses well liberaled in nager positions, always liberally well spaced.

Yeah, socially remove our boss.

You knew that is, you know, and the bridal job is cheaper.

But I don't think that the what I would say, say, fifty sixty percent reach as the reach of the.

Bosses in the univers states prior reversity protacles.

I don't think it was the only replicated. There was all replicated in most of the states.

In Actually, you know, what the president should have.

Done was to do before you announced the removal of jobs here. You know, he announced it only ps.

This inaugration day, which is usually very tricky.

You know, there is a love question channel was it was? What was was that the plan in that? I mean, what was their plan?

These bosses should have been to have been great and deployed as subsidy.

As you know, subtidy, so that the pushing the effect the transportation effects because when if you deploy them marks and people can actually feel and asset these poses are pay less or just not.

Fuel did increase.

Because we started seeing like one hundred percent increasing transports where that you go for and spend two undred and started to coming three hundred, four hundreds in some cases.

You know, so if you could pushing that effects.

Of the increasing transportation plans would have at least had something to say, oh, this is what the government need to pushing effects and to have some sort.

Of the multiply effects.

You know, when those bosses choose and when those bosses come into.

The transportation market and it's sufficient enough to supply, it's cetain level of demand.

Even if it's a test a percent five percent, forty percents to tell the drivers the probably comm dive about something.

They will feel, they may feel some some there's a chance depending on the degree, there's a chance that they may feel so many so reduced to demand an average use to demand, who now incertivis them to really meet the levels the increased Because there's a manager and engineers always take advantage of situations to favor themselves, you know, defer themselves well as the group as an individual.

Before nagers as the whole.

So there's always a chance that the drivers move that look for to make money also make the same amount of money you're making.

It's the chance that it's supposed to increase it from.

Per say two hundred to to to three hundred.

We can actually do to fifty and make the same money.

But we're making well because of everything that is happening to take the opportunity are moving to three hundred or.

Some people who want three fifty.

So if this this came out in masses and actually served at LISTA, I said Testi Percence Woker of.

The markets in the urban areas protacles, they got to know a ble earth that you have a big money for transport.

These bosses actually served.

That purpose.

That's forty Testif Percents did they increased the boarding that Nagerance would have had to bear as a result of the subsidient increase, the subsidies.

Removal, you know the transports increased subsidies removal.

Well, I don't know how to have but he guess understand Dransy. The boarding agents will have had to be would have been less.

And this administration just by doing this adminstration that needs to see, Yes, removed subsidy but immediately this is what we did to cushion the effects. But they failed to me if you really feel that, I think seam tried the team tried to be cstain.

Level generally as because for the fair they felt that there was.

No can'tiable cushing effects. The buying of rice is rubbish.

See god man just went to your market and both rights from local local rights from both right.

And as changed Nigerias.

Now what that does is that's who give the it to increasing the demand of rice.

From the from the distribute of the farmers.

So they will now have they will not have the some sort of insensitive it's incentive.

To evil put the prices higher.

If you notice when they were when they go mad with buyer rising both.

From them and distributed in Nigeria's the prissent rise was increasing like as was happening, things was increasing.

Then okay, now let's even look at the rise that they bought.

How many people are many important? You have actually even go this rice?

You know?

So if you've got mentioned that has done lots, they've done some good things.

They've done a lot of batter and doing a lot of good things.

But that rise rise buying as pushing effect something is rubbish.

It failed did not have as I had in negative effects on the coast of rice.

And the rise and never gets an a j so, uh that was That's what I wanted to say on you know, the.

Substances remove issue. You know what I initially I.

Thought it was about five six rillion that we see that the figured around twenty billion that we see now.

The main issue not.

Spend What are we spending this money on?

You know, what are we doing with this twenty billion dollars?

What? What?

What have you people doing with this money?

You know?

So that the issue around subsidy expenditure, expenditures the main issue when we talk about.

The examine, about the thing about the.

Yeah, go for it.

Yeah, so when we where we score, when.

We talk about them, yes, we've.

All established that.

Okay is good.

But the issue for me for there is the coastal borry and.

Once you spend it, when you spend the debtor as you expended to this government has been very very very irresponsible. If you look at the twenty five budgets, look at the latest instation by Nurse, look at the latest insertion dynasts.

You see a lot of questionable a lot of questionable insertions.

The media.

You are located about several billion, if I know, yes, okay, about two Mayvillio.

Ministries that are not even scenity.

The deformed ministry of sports on end and existing some departs and existing.

Then you guys are I think most of you would have heard about the street issue about it.

It was even then six million for mons street lights.

You know.

So if if you investigates the latest insertions in me, it's filled with a lot of questionable projects, questionable.

Expenditures. Videos entis what that all these.

Things you have to put that, these things to add the podcast?

What these things?

How are they going to benefit the life of Nigeria?

You know?

So the level of physical discipline is very very high.

So when you brew, it's not inherent what you spend the morning.

That you go, what do you spend it on?

And also the cost of burying on the.

On the issue of the episod.

Reserve is lending, reserves, lends, all those things are very bad. Pledging your future kludo to assess cash now is very very bad.

You know.

So we need to just a roundo.

We need to be very conscious of the cost of the morning, the cost of growing and what we spend it to be raised, what we spend the expenditure we spend it to be very concious of this thank.

You, Thank you. Ben appreciate that those comments, well well done. Again, we're just going back and saying the same same thing.

Right.

We don't mind the borrowing.

But if the government tomorrow Monday morning, was to come out a list of projects that we're going to spend this on, this will actually help the government because we'll say, okay, we want to build these power plans we're going to get in the hour. I wanted to build this route. People who understand when you stay on to borrow twenty two billion dollars for the five trillion nira and we have nowhere of Now we're going I'm going to buy a new jets and New York's new SUV is of course, I'm.

Going to ask questions.

So it's your job to give the information which you have to piloce An f o I to know where the government wants to spend our attacks revenues.

Killer.

Let's have you clear, Let's have you.

Clear.

Ok, yeah, I see you guys. Please go ahead.

So I've heard about this, all theban nutation has done and all of that.

It gets.

Two years after the policies that have been.

I would have to say it's been a fire it's, uh, our good trajectory hasn't increased. That big has continued.

Because you could see.

Some markers of consumption collapsed.

It's the economy is essentially being propped up by government spending our net exports having.

Really reasons per see aescually in real terms.

Yes, and nominal terms, it's increased, but when you corrected for US dollars, it's.

Even strike me with the US dollar. So one time has to start one dream?

Was this.

Idea?

It's I know there are a lot of rule I was saying, was re surprised.

You please try everything, try try to stell your audio your you're agreed, and I'll stell your audio if you don't mind.

Okay, okay, sorry.

Yea, yes, like you're agreed, and I just just look at the mic when you're speaking here.

Okay.

So I think, like, uh.

So when you look at all those different markers of of the economy, there doesn't seem to me to be home grace that we need.

I at all point.

I think the first six.

To one year I was on because we mole boots or who said, oh yes, maybe the divardation made sense or we have to do it, and all of that boats.

Three years in and we're looking at we're looking.

At podcasts going forward that suggests de people go to be about works three points or three point five percent. Our population Grok is worse two point five two point four percent.

The need well essentially meaning that the average.

Persons for capital income is increasing by.

Just one the saints or less.

What to say A yeah, like beginning we are talking about here because first of.

All, we are we are disablittle Magan society. Let's not say we are not.

The average Maggion is really really suffering. And Coverty has difference. It doesn't it doesn't often the PACA. And if a doct of insecurity, I know a look at point of important talk about all we need to declare the b best way to self in security in the country is by fully employing people. You can carry all the all the soldiers, all the police, all you want people that many young men out there that do not have the future, people that are in job or do not or what gainfully employed, they.

Will resort to carrying arms are doing the governments lessons.

The social implications are hand know and stations.

Isn't just even children.

Going in this period you can imagine when in the winters are all lost and people have to ask the pacture of children, they are not feeding their children as much as they can.

So the twenty years around, we have children that can adequately think they're not very nutric because the foundation of the nutritional foundation and has do has.

Also as we then start to create a style.

Everything about the educational system is the educational system.

This thing is a social economic implications that will last breaking a course, the quarry.

The economy and sociocology complications that will go to last. Taking now the new good situation has now as our compounded on.

Top of a terrible situation.

Let's beginning, let's just almost previously. So in the beginning of this year, the New York Times Sports reported that about thirty one year my journe at least thirty Yes, that's about what it's Several of the definition were we all going together without citing now be do we need to be pros became really arrest the ficult those people after look out as committing co at the start at unique and start coming everything. That's a lot of the implication for me.

Booking back, I would say.

That I was wrong about the should have been done gradually you do less devaluecourrency.

By the level I think it was done so drastically.

Do you see.

People's income stock cases in any countries.

It's in country for economic because.

In Argentina the work of pet and this economic difficult on the.

Speed and before the one on the report it's great and going.

To really improved. Yes, I'm giving.

It comes up in that giving.

It comes up when it's economy has it's improved, and kind he has has.

Has activity dequence.

Now the issue of energy, you are the fad that you see public accounts and you just simply say, philosophsag is gone and means of the humans, prices.

Of prices of the few increased by six.

Foods in some parts of the country, and.

You somehow think that they of the country stopper.

Like energy is.

Anttude to every ethnic activity.

When it's increasing, you essentially are ticking of the fact individuals you you can't stay or even the you alt bring out and buying boots or band of bud a.

Bun a.

Studio and all these.

Other things people and people say.

And one of these are the things that that are that are stupid a subsisting people in the economy.

I think it was a very rash decision.

Gradually ya, I know it is just sixty It is one of business people don't like.

Yeah, you do like to talk about but it is not a clay appointingly pay that gradual.

Gy was it?

Video? I mean clear, clear, don't want to cut you off, but let's let's have you just for time. Yeah, just to speak yet, okay, okay.

Okay, So that's so those twenty seconds, I'm going to meet these points. So you so I'm can't begreen at about and a half percents us that for our GDP to move from the corrent about Stronographic seems to want to get billion dollars.

You can take about twenty.

One years and that's the chorus A capital grows to be.

But you're a guessing if you take about seventy seven.

Years, now, how many of those cones seventy seven years from.

Inn from about station seven from environments and it's something myra but by hour six hundred, which is stimate less than what's jennap Electica in two thousand fort wall talk about thirty thousand years with us, we should think about these things in years.

In people's lives, years, our lives, Parlie. Please let us be this open.

Just just just roughly the valley things increase energy price that will obviously he was.

In any very rough and I think the nine we are going to pay for it.

As a country, this should be talking about putting the pailies and brings more families.

That stop that collapsed in the new value of people's.

People still ten.

That's the Detai group pure and.

Me twenty nine.

So conte, thank you.

Very much, thank you, I mean great, greatful points that I think you bring up some context because that's just just let that speak, just let speak, just let that speak, because I have waited, just real quick and let me get.

Right just really quickly. You jumped off. Let me have your computer bright that's right, Okay, that's yeah, I know you. You you dropped off. H you walked down. Which were you're speaking about last time? Okay, I'm almost done.

But look, like I said for me, if we were punctrating this the furderate government, I think we should started governors more accountable and like I said earlier, if every government decided to put a factory of whatever products to add value to it, in their state. For those cops were moved out of their stick in each of their local government.

Like I said to you, my your fly eve already's on. I don't believe praising him. I'm not praising him. I would rather see him do just some small factory that in local government. We are those children that run.

Around after speaking in the village square, that they.

Will be running around the city. They will get sports more job to do. Government need to increase any capacity of an eighth citizen. I don't want to do it in this evaluation where even when the money was not before me, when Donata had a very good group god six something billion, we didn't do anything with it.

So I don't want to live in this warrior of legnard you want to want I don't care. South Korea's currency is not the not want to want to dollar, but today their production accountry until we start working off what our output of our.

Production, and that production is not going to be mainly is the state governors. State governors and local governments. These are people who need.

To start putting a fire in the if those people are able to do those things, and I've said there's no reasons.

State governors also chelf food.

In their states.

Food.

I'm not talking about any other thing.

I'm talking about.

Food, and let us not deceive ourselves hunger.

As old as I am, as far back past nineteen eighty two, I remember when mocos and.

People have now started it does be. I remember how people used to shove.

Away or hungry.

I remember when my uncles used to see the back before they could get when they left university.

Our set do not get it.

So the point is that, look, there are decisions that ought to have been taking twenty thirty.

Forty years ago that we refuse. We continue to play polities with it. And this is one thing I would say that to the last. We need to stop politicizing issues in Nigeria.

If we have.

Problems, let's face the problem and fix the problem.

Let's stop giving it political or relation. And the reason is that when we give a political coloration, will never get solution to be because at.

The end of the day, the person that is coming to defend it is also going to give this spot. We also have robbers spoken about the students learn that's going on.

We think that twousands of our students that normally when they get admission, they couldn't follow their education, they drop out. Then at the second time, it's one thousand, five hundred students right jam, at the end.

Of the day, the numbers that we go to that school will not be more than two hundred. But no, it's a different boogame. And for me, these are the kind of things I think the government invests more. Let's even produce more of the students out of school.

Perhaps some of them become productive, do something to business.

To add to the economy.

And for me, we need to spend more in our health.

We need to start the health system. It's not going to be fair, eral able takes.

Need to do more.

It's still black mind health insurance, insurance for these people. Everybody's guys, thank you very welcome. Guys.

Just gust to speak. I do get it. I don't cut anybody off, but just be mad for all the time. We have all opinions to be heard.

I don't know everyone that has had or will speak, but just just let everyone speak, right, you got to go ahead, you gotta flop.

Okay, Yeah, What what I would just say is this, I see the situation.

In Nigeria is our problems start to be politicized and what you have is every side of the divide, but for the government side and the opposing side. You see a lot of propaganda about the issues. Every issue like for instance, now let's look at this issue of subsidy.

When subsidy was remote.

It's very very erroneous for anybody to say, like as if the money was the money Nigeria I had somewhere, and when you remove subsidy you saved the money.

It forgets it. Currently, when Powarry was there, the Minister.

And Finance then was saying they were trying to use two point two billion dollars you re bound to finance subsidy and that any PC was not remaining anything to the federation accounts. If we listen towards this, former Governor of Dusty said then opacity that they just go to a budget for fake and what the governor was doing was just to be pending money and that was all we had with that the how many trillions of night that in ways that means so really subsidy was not

Had ended up doing is you don't borrow anymore to face the subs.

To pay the subsidy.

Then ANYPC can then pay the money into the federation accounts and we need to unders and any money that come into the federation that appre shiate the constituency share be shared our.

More detreaties of government. So that said, where I blame the Noobook.

Government stays the government does not live by example you remove subsidy. I don't expect that it's the fier government that would bude municipal transport in all the state or the federation. But I expect the government to live by example Nabuja to buy a bus.

This for people to be able to move.

Within the Budja.

Then you then't give a kind of disample for these states because if you look by the state's.

Government, it is due to the basic government.

To provide municipal buses in these states where you frommso city education primary as the education is within the responsibility of these states.

How many primary as the other school does?

The er government asked?

And then you look at primary as center because if as are done, the effect of the subsidy will be less on our people.

This level of subsidy remover.

That we've had.

How drastic it is that surprise from two hundred and ar to one thousand, no amount.

Of politive and soviet.

You have to preace the issue to write bosses two more people make primary as second education, revampite, let them be free and be politative so that people don't need to spend money.

On paying schofee. And then heyse tal center.

When I was very young and on those.

States, I go to Hexy, I go to general spect.

You don't do you go there, you literat, you pregnant. We make it bad freely, they don't pay anything is needed to be done. That is such a good subsidy.

And again letland look at this if your object what I say Nigeria is there's a lot of message formation. Everything is the publicized approach when government presented borrowing plan and.

I want to take all of what one of this dose that okay, that is what they want to borrow. And mister, I would like to.

Ask you, is there any eighty work to d the past twenty one to borrow any government?

Yes? Yes, at one at it go yes?

Why yeah, yes, that's one belong.

I just think when I said the space, I keep it the successful world Back. World Back has about four billion in the last six months or year.

I give it if you tried the if website of the world by the last discipsement that was the Ligera's lasted.

What I'm just telling you is this, if you go back and look at the numbers, four billion has gone to Nigeria from twenty twenty three four and that's just from work. I am well, I am a gift Nigeria nearly three billion. Right, we have about thirty five billion in europe bonds. The point I'm making is that you know you've fraized. After you finished, I don't interrupt you. If you have a medium term plan, that plan says we want to borrow, you are right. It's a plan to borrow, right.

Like a projection.

The projection there is eight trillion one two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, fourteen five. The next year is about seven trillion, so about fifteen triller for two years in one go. The letter that the President roses for forty five trillion.

So I ask you what I'm saying is that that came to the National Assembly. That is a borrowing.

It's not it's not a plan.

It's their request for the permission to borrow and spend. The borrowing plan is already in the medium term framework.

So this letter, okay, the question to ask you now, is there an entity will row morning to night without that that morning project?

Yes, the world?

What project is nutrition tied to? When the world but the five million dollars for nutrition? What project was it tied to.

When we got the i MS. It's not.

You can borrow.

You can borrow. Listen, I'm giving you the course. The d M or that of his website.

Pull up the use of funds. You see budgets, supports, you see railways, you see telecom. You see a line called budget support.

Boet support is the highest use.

Of borrowings in Nigeria. DMO go the DMO website.

What I'm saying is what I am saying is when you have that kind of plank, comes the National Assembly. It's supposed to be assembly right for April night. Make important to real look at okay, what is this borrowing relief?

Where we borrowed when we brought the World Bank?

Any debates, I've had the space here with the World Bank iever, We've had the World Bank space here.

We don't go to celt To debate anything we borrow. The World Banking.

Is very stringent. The conditions are very strict gent.

But don't.

I hear you and I'm saying that, I'm answering your question. Have we ever debated the World Bank notes in Nigeria?

We borrowed. We just broth a million dollars. I believe the last two months.

Has ever been any borrowing from the World Bank?

That does assembly?

If democratic?

Not during the military?

What answered you over and.

The quest I'm trying to this.

If we have this situation with.

Democracy, we have the National simply.

That and the president essense of this power to sicids you can have one and waiting absolute power that there.

Must be check and pallas. If you want to do this thing, you.

Ask the National Assembly. The National Assembly has to approve?

What about? What about?

What? What? What?

What about? What's about the state of the emergency? Who was it not done? After its approved?

I mean we can the president are now sident no no no no no signing the state of emergency?

They can make and the constution man did that. The National semily most session we discibled this to had reject assembly during the time of Googgeny.

The rejected it okay led by timplecause most looks where diff.

Is coming from. Give the National Assembly are supposed to do.

Don't do this.

You'renderstand nobody. I want to take you to take you back and we have about the debt you. I want to take you back to the substy just for put that listening. Just as we understand when you pay subsidy. When we say the federal does not pay subsidy, the Federation of Nigeria, the Federation pays subsidy. Federation meets federal, state and local government they pay subject.

What does this mean? It means that when n NPC.

Sells crude oil NBACY brings the dot the dollar, the dollar back to Nigeria to deceive to JP Morgan account. NNPC owns that dollar. Then n NPC is supposed.

To pay the nyra to fuck.

So when we sell coute oil NPC and the dollars, then NNPC remains the nyra they converted to CPN They remain the nyra to the FUC. When we pay subsidy, n NPC is the one paying the subsidy. N NPC not borrowing n NPC son n PC would debit that nirah and limit nothing.

That's why method itself.

For three years NPC had remitted nothing because you are using.

The subsidy money.

Let me let me take you on that.

Please, sir, please let me finish. Then you can. Please, I'll let you. I let you talk, I let you speak, sir, allow me explain. You will speak.

I'm not cutting you off. I let you speak at not interrupt you once. Allow me speak that you can speak. I'm explaining. So listening and follow the conversation. Subsidy is paid by the n n PC. That's so when the NNPC pays is subsidy, there is no remittance to fuck.

So is the federation that pace. So when you remove subsidy, what happens to that firsial money? Money flows into the federitional account.

That's why you see today FARC has doubled because there's no more subsidy payment and NPC is not remitting the full amount to fact. That's why it states at the federal government have gotten more revenues from FAK.

Please go ahead, sir, ah, yeah, please go ahead. Are you want to speak or okay?

The second point about the borrowing in twenty twenty four December, note the data of putting. December twenty twenty four, Nigeria borrowed two billion dollars to implement the twenty twenty four budget. Tell me again December twenty twenty four, that's at the end of the year. We borrowed two.

Billion at a go to implement the twenty twenty four projects. When you ask, can the agency borrows the five billion? No, what's going to go and borrows with five billion? But what you are saying is that you want to borrow twenty five billion.

Question is for what the.

Simplical doors can have a blank check for. What do you want to borrow the money for? Is it going to be used for a And then you say it so that we come and we ask you questions. We are citizens and taxpayers. When you borrow, it is tax hike.

So as the government, you must come back to the people and hold yourself to be accountable.

That's all I say. If I is not going to spay again, We're going to move on to the collar. At the color, you've got the floor. At the collar, you've got the floor. Let's get ken KBOUTI Ken please go ahead.

Thank you very much everyone. It's great discussion and you know, focusing on the topic.

Miss Nigeria and Nager entering the dead and with the boat plans for having the borrowing plants that that the government is possuming, especially with the recent.

You know what we have discovered about the twenty one billion dollar loan request.

I mean, it's the highest, you know, single number I've heard in terms of loan for Nigeria. And the first thing I did when I saw that headline was I have to start reading to know exactly what is being tied to this amount.

It is ambitious.

I was expecting to see something like the The goal of this amount is to is to upgrade our I.

Don't know, maybe transmission line in the country and the miniatures. It is to a super gride, which I will support such such amount because of course to have super grid in the country you need to spend It's not close to that kind of you know amount. I was also checking to see this amount the types with projects that will connect all the major cities by concrete highways, you know that will that will guarantee their effectiveness over fifty to one hundred years, and also connect all the major

So what is this loom going to be useful.

With this type of behavior. This is very dangerous precedents. We are, we are, we are, we are trying to to to establish. Here we saw how reckless the Boar regime, together with with imly printed money, without records, without regard for an existing law regarding.

How much we can print, and borrowing ways and means.

Now we are seeing a situation where a blank check is being requested for this amount, this amount of loan without it being a tied to something, and and and and we know what our Senate present is capable of.

We've seen it on live TV where where the National.

Assembly would vote on a particular issue maybe years or no, and the man would would strike his his his judgment and picked the other the other decision favor what he wants to do.

This is dangerous and I think a jelous.

Need to speak.

We need to be shouting on this because yes, they might say, we are not in a death trap. You might say standards are Post just recently upgraded our rating to I think a BB.

One or something like that.

They just recently upgraded us, and and that that might mean, oh, okay, the course is clear, we can borrow and there's no there's no risk anywhere with our economy is.

Doing very well.

Our economy is not doing well.

If more than half of your population is in abject poversy, we're not doing well. If our GDP move from number one overnight to number four in Africa, we are not doing well.

We are not doing well.

I'm I'm really, I'm really shocked.

Our death corrently stands up at about Mondon and forty five trillion narra trillion.

You can't pay merely billionaire.

I am a flown And then you come.

The next morning say you want to borrow into one billion.

That is a past so absolutely nothing if president, but it can come today and say this project, this money is for this project, and this is what we plan to achieve, and we want to we want to build code rooms that will that will, that will, that will.

Apple say the fifty percent of agricultural produce that we lose every year before that crash the prices of food producing. The idea can one hundred percent and for it because I know that there's going to be value for that loan. What what happens in Angela that we keep awarding contracts that are that are overblooken over price contracts. The The question on ther Girl is the cost par kilometer of that may four percent of the seven hundred kilometer road. The cost park kilometer can do it.

Is high risk with respect to what you can do in any part of the world, even in the US. In Europe, cost par of that role is about sixteen million dollars.

Okay, but they built it right. It's built right.

I'm just saying I don't have any problem in do but what is the value? I hear you, but I don't think I think. I think we're focused on this course parkilimeter.

Okay.

I saw someone say this about fourteen them. Look at the difficult I was giving me here, they built it.

You know.

For me, it's like, well, I've had people that have taken loans and not done anything. This one has been built.

But let's not justify.

Let's not justify that practice because we're talking about money that could have sixty kilometers.

I hear, I hear.

So I'm hearing this fourteen million, fourteen point two million part kilometer.

That's what it does.

It's still more.

It's still more to the Chinese contractor to do that a job probably I don't know, maybe seven and to course five.

Million to build in time cont from China and.

Proli said, your per.

And literally sickness.

Fully roads you want, I do need to or even more realize that I mean that.

So you don't do so except you gification there that contact that can do kind of drobing board the Okay.

This is the only guy that can do in the world whatever.

Is sick No, I can't.

I I'm just asking. That was an good question. I agree with the broad points you're making.

I e.

Perhaps it's expensive, but it was built in twelve months and twelve months building twelve months. I will be more concerned if it is not extended out.

For me.

You are how you Nigeria where we talked about money. I approved, there's not money.

Dis First, there is no like you've said, you can't go from region to region on a good road in Nigeria.

In this road can.

Extend and can do what they said they wants to do. Oh my god, then thank you very much. But I have a feeling that this is the end of this road. He has already flown the kite and said they've met a swamp. He has already flown that kite that they saw swamp. When I have a post soon on Twitter. When I saw this road and I'm going to build this road, they said in ten years or so. No, they said they're going to be the road in four years.

It's not possible. And it's only beggar that can do it because they are large, they have the equipment. They can come.

Well, tribalist, you are doing it, but I will not seen it. Now we're not going to nat That was saying Ogun state he's staying there swamping urgen, which Nigerian does not know. There are swamps outside the Legos e Leco itself. I grew up in Legos where you had mobile. This was what year was this in nineteen ninety No, nineteen nineteen eighties. My friend went to visit our friend whose father lived in these Chevron quarters.

Beside that mobile where the mobile was now. I remember we were dragging. We'll go through it went through swamps, monkeys, crocodiles, and you get to that where mobile is now, it was swamp and crocodiles on all sides. Then mobile doors built that in there. There was no first second or tron about. It was just that mobile thing there. I was like, why is this guy living here?

His father's a oil company guy, why is he living here around them?

You I'm not exaggerating. They were pan swamp like a swamp. You go on the bridge, if you look left or right, it's a swamp. A mobile building in there. So even legos that call that whole like you face one, it's still a swamp. And it goes from legos like this all the way to Cameroon the same thing. So that's why East West Food and East Twest Food is not in the coast. So it's in the town, it's in the land, it's a lot of the area, and still

So but here we are, so this should is fantastic. I think it's it's going to end here. They will do a few things.

They do Calabar, they'll do fanfare on Calabar land, but once they cross Calabar and enter the swamps, that's too stop.

They will entire elections.

Not noble to should they gain until after elections then somebody will come.

They will build. Being on the late land side, they will take pictures what this.

Swamp is the issue. The coastal road is proble because on the coast. So unfortunately it is.

It is what it is right.

I hope they build it because it will boost commers. There's no East West link. From nineteen sixty till today, Nigeria does not have an East West link none. So whether you like to Nuvu or you don't like Tenovu, they have to build this road or this rail lor Jonathan gave the largest contract in the history of China to the Chinese Railway Company to connect the railway line from Legos to Calibi.

It's not even on the coast.

It's that difficult that that contract was the largest contract ever given to a Chinese company in the history of China, largest foreign contract to build it from Legos to Calabar railway not on the coast.

Then you think high tech would just wake up and can build a coastal road in the Do you know how many bridges is they have to build?

Do you know how many bridges have to build just to go from Legos to say just be not even Delta, just across Gogo states.

Have you driven to alec of before? Have you driven all the way down before?

But let's hope that God there, God did got to build it for us. Russian you've got the floor rushing, go ahead, Russian, go ahead. But she hands up that she can't hear unless John Crowder sorry, I had issues, yeah and everyone.

Yeah, So I don't want to quickly talk about the first I'll talk about like how important the.

Subsidies were, the removal of subsidy and the flu of.

The there was actually for the car, for the economy. I mean, someone else mentioned how we had like we had back page and then they were also said enough future training, future feature resources, for house for sorry for for and all these things, but.

Also for the neerror and the value of the currency.

It was also very important to float the are which is actually quite different from just just increasing the price of the dollar of reducing the value of.

The it's different.

All they did was they moved the regulations, like the government restrictions on the price which was being.

Funded basically by the CBN using our reserves.

And not only not only was it.

Detrimentals or reserves, it was also it was also detrimter because it was an a venue for corruption.

There was and it's not just abutraged normal abutrage corruption.

There was deep set corruption in that particular system where people who have to make.

Requests and the necess have to make requests through certain connections to get set in.

A mumber of dollars and all those things and.

All those convoluted processes that made it's not really had to do maybe it.

Had to do business and was just a system in general.

And there was also draining our resources, our financial resources, so it was.

It was completely bad. It was not a good thing, and so like it had to be removed, We had to be fluted. So they didn't. They didn't introduce value of genera and it just flutedge. It does allowed the markets.

Terminits and then once in a while, as we've seen.

Then discipli and decipient it.

Having things and trying to maintain it, tries to maintain that stability.

And then I also wanted to talk quickly to about the Coastal Highway.

Personally, I'm very very optimistic about about the Tinoo's vision and plan to complete the highway. And I mean, I've listened to David do I talk about it a lot of times, and I'm I believe in him somehow, you know, for some reason.

And then we talked about how hard it is pomplish roads like that.

The Americans bused in that state highway in twenty five years was about for six thousand kilometers and then they did it like nineteen whatever.

I don't know when they did it, but like a long time ago.

We are two twenty five.

We have more resources, we have resources, but like there's technology pup and everything, and personally, I feel like you can't.

Be done maybe not maybe not in four years or you know, six years.

The le yeah, but but but that's the point, sir, I think I want the road more than you.

I don't think that you can find any real Nigerian anyone that says he loves Nigeria that's against this road. You won't find any because if this road opens up, there is no road. Guys, from the east to the west. There is legos about an express which is an express way. Then from a background or l ray that you have two three lanes, you get to be in something's happening, You get to something is happening. There's no real like you said, the I five you have in America, it

Or something like that. Let that commission build the road.

Tinerbook will not be this road can be built in ten You probably said in sixteen years when America is building, it can be building ten years.

It's just too massive. A bridge, A load will take you one twelve months or so months to build.

You're gonna build nearly seventy bridges to go just to cross maybe to Stage seventy.

Because it's a coastal road. The folks that East West Road saw this and moved it more into the land. But when you go to the land, it's you. You are hitting towns. Coast Road is smooth, so you can build your six lanes and just go. That's really why you want to coast road. So nobody's against the Coast.

Road, my brother, we want it, but we have to be a bit more.

You know, it's not by prayer roads and not built by prayer or by good intent or by if someone speaks no, let's be level heard here.

If nobody wants to build, get a commission. Let's commission fund that road and let them build that road. That's just my take because who do VORs everybody? Now it favors everybody because that road now generate parts. If you have a road, you can build a railway. You have a railway, you can build pots. So who doesn't want it? But we have to be able to temper. Okay, but should I hope you get my pointer?

Yeah?

Yeah, your points and I quite agree with you. It's actually because I need to be realistic.

Just like this take time.

Like you said, you're building your building like a lot of bridges is a cool star road, and there's going to be a lot of a lot of state parks.

Along the way, and it's going to take time. And I think I like your solution.

And there are other.

Solutions, like like.

Getting private investments and then trying to cook the investments.

I think that what I should do is to say that the federal government mapped the road out, map the road out from Legos to Calabar with spurs to on HR, or that map the road right, put the railway there. Then simply say okay, if you want to build this section, is what's to cost you. So, for instance, a local the Alta state has got tralios in Iran, they have cash to burn. The pasts can say contract dot com will fund one kilometer every.

Month, The Alta can stay that biers.

I can step contract dot com would fundilut us every month, and you start to building you like Lego, so Biosis can have their own one hundred kilmeters built. The actor can build diclimitters oh where they can build this one. But you have the road already mapped out. It's already mapped out, and then you're just build like Lego. But if you wait for mister Tingego to build that road from Legos to Calabar in eight years, my god, you're you're a dreamer.

It's not gonna happen.

And when we say these things, I'm saying so you can have the right structure in place, have a commission or have an SPV fund that SPV now with a tax structure that will guarantee the funding. You remember, once you leave office, you are gone. The things that Harry wanted to build, they've abandoned them. I'll be get the point I'm making. All right, let's get thanks to the Russia pictured yourself, please copy right here?

Who speak? Yeah, please better?

Thank you for giving me this so first I would love to the books from Stentiment.

That's what making you know, when so people are saying that we are politicizing this, and that the truth advert the variables that affects the life of two mans and Enduria has been controlled by the federal governments. Is it interest rates, inflation rates, echangerates? It is this variables, this very it is controlled by it's so controlled by federal government.

EFTs evaluations like mother is of infliction NEDUA. He's been driving by f X passed through.

Data is there, Data is available. Many of us may not agree with what I'm saying, so so SI like that just the parts of it.

But it's this majorly majority FX that would that would.

We really mentioned business? The president of past reform be see. Yes, the presidents of pasform.

Three he said, he said, he said, FX passed through its major source of inflation.

They are you know what I did? Yes, also mentioned business. So at first it's major I I do controls effects.

It is federal governments controls FLEXU inflation.

It is federal governments. Now this admission came into it today. Number of poverty, number.

Of probable wait, those on four million by ten twentyform it's up.

It's named millium. So what are we saying.

It's about the It's not about criticizing the administration.

It is the numbers. So we shouldn't be ringling emotions with numbers.

Now and we are looking back all star roads as we are asking tell us how much pack look that do do you plan for these projects? They can't give us assers. They say they're not happy for the projects.

You can't do this that way. We have to we have to be transparent. So did you don't matter that when.

This debt the debt proof of the matter is that when it comes to debt, to me, that's what you're wrong with in borrowing.

But we feel like saying that what's matass what are.

We borrowing for? Are we borrowing to.

Loose or we are borrowing for productivity?

As a matter of fact, neture to this natuia, now our factor.

Of productivity is negative, so mean that this economy is not productive.

In short, during the session of the contradactors driving this economy, it's legals. If you take of the out of the dua, that's what it is in the duria. So if you go and change GDP our GDP.

Is contributed the deer because contributed to five percent. The nurse states two legos is reverse with four percent. The rest were just one percent percent.

Contribute to the missions degree mean that the growth were having. The DA is not inclusive and that's why economic group economic group by three points twenty four.

Butter say that our com is declining. So now even what about the electricitysterrific? You know electricism is going to be there, likely to increase, that vary.

Now, now if the two controls the facts that changes Crigoros, I could remember if when it was there?

Where is the ministers of another?

That enough?

Maybe I can't really remember names in them? Something she said that the successfully.

Removed electricity subsidy.

Now this admissions gave me. They broke everything to bad, they said.

So lub must pay higher because the course of the eis your answer safe who controls? Who controls the valuables that make the course of electricy to go? It is the furtherer goms. You've got to check the n N I see NYC website.

What if really? What the fact that that.

Affects electricity generation?

Change rates is there?

Inflation rates is there? Gas price is there? So who is in Chige for this?

It's father going.

Even though I must combine the admission that after the fat, after that removed subsidy, the revenue has increased.

The revenue path in christ from eight percent about fourteen percent in twent times form.

But let's advertise that revenue has increased, fact has increased to distate goverments. But this money, this all this allocation has increased, has been rooted by eye inflation. Because you agatize that the prices of change, growth, entery.

It's not that the same thing. Many of them have God blog wote three food. So we made that the money increased. The money that the stigment is he's being readed by inflation.

So to me, the money we should not usually expected too much from the governors because the money that is, it's be rooded by inflation.

Except what dicilize the last really what I'm talking about. So people are saying that and the state governments to engage in this, and that's see declar matters.

If any economy to create a shape prosperity for his people, you can't be driven by people, private citizens, not government government based on at the bast on the antistidy.

They always with corruptions. Sodina I said, a stutions a fellow weak.

So if we have you students allow weak, it's fete very difficult for these institutions to be driving productions. So governments who find a way to empower the people, let people drive these productions that I needed. Never look acadists of the economy, life for self. How many are many who have the capacity to even drive productions. It is my elits because it's this, They have the capacity to drive productions. SOCCO must find a way to say that it gives never play fit for everybody.

So indeed, it was the American that.

Is today a big back.

Are built by the people, government dogs, familiar policies.

Yeah, the people, I don't build the work that challenge it?

Who does it?

So?

Thank you very much?

Yeah, I hear.

I know we've sort of objected away from the dead side, right, but let me speak a quick comment on the devaluation and also on the subsidition number. Guys, if you do not devalue, you are seeing that one nyira of or five hundred narra is one dollar.

That's what you're saying, that five hundred narra is one dollar. So what do you think could happen? Simple?

A government guy will apply for a lot of a million dollars, bring you to the black market, sell it for fifteen hundred and make a thousand narra per dollar, which is what was happening in the past, because the real exchange rate you see today the black market is the real exchange rate, not what CBN gives you. The black market is the real xchang, which is whatever the black market, the interplay of demand and supply.

Is the real rate.

So your narror is not weak or strong the market it is saying it is weak. You can't fight the market. If you don't want a weak Nira, export more. The more you export, then your narra will gain value. You can't say I want strong then you know that our production then you fix the production capability.

You can't.

It's like it's like saying in Nidia better suit and monikul them. You can't say you want strong Nira with no power supply to manufacture.

Problems first, so if you don't fix problems, they hold on.

Hold on. Let's look at this way.

If you say, first, if you don't fixit evaluation, you are losing more money, true theft of the dollar, because this would continue if you don't stop the devaluation. What you are saying is that you are going to allow people to just go to the CB and say they want to import essential what it is. Get dollars at five hundred, turn around and sell it at a thousand and five. That's all you're doing. So you can't do both. You can tuggle them at work at the same time

It's cheaper to go to India, buy rice.

Put on the ship, pay freight, pay insurance, bring that rise to the part in Legos than to grow rice in Keavy and transport to Legos.

It's cheaper.

And if you have an economy like that, you can't you can't progress. If it was cheap to make things in Nigeria, inflation will fall. But imports are cheaper, which is why people go for imports. Imputs are cheaper, and that's the problem with the economy. If you have an economy where imports that America can afford cheaper input because their dollar is quote and quote straw.

But your NYRA is weak and you are important double warming.

You go ahead from spoken right, that's just achiever, achiever, achia dot a go achievement, go for it.

You the gerod okay anyway I can hear you.

Okay, okay, good Now.

I think what the economists was actually saying is about the fact that government of claturally I walk on the this thing is actually I believe work from the basiness, right, you need from our perspective, right. I think the things in which we are talking about is just from the top. I think we have to walk fastly on the first things that remodes.

Trust me. I think I tart can't do one thing. I think that sweet Alia last week or something.

But now, the funny thing there is mostly most normal Agenians because we get access to goodle agrigate.

Interesting, right, and we know how you.

Put some electricity actually contributes to productivity.

Right now, even the outbreak Nigeria that is.

Supposed to probably have a great idea, right you're trying to just before the scratches.

Something like that.

If you don't have answers to this normal daily.

Utress electricity, there is no way he or she built the beauty to its highest potential.

Right.

And I believe if we're when you're talking about productivity or important exporting in the highest levels, right.

I think it's the groundwork system that actually matters to be right. And this is be talking about from our own perspective, because these are the things we be You don't the young guys if I'm not even eld it right, the guy that are trying to build a giant conto spaces to name one or two of the world's really happening in Nigeria.

How can we look in how can we actually have position our sets? What are the rest new thing?

Right?

What is really happening?

Right?

So that's just in form of perspective.

Necessarily, I think the government needs to just walk on these things first.

Right, let's get on the trees.

Let's get basic things that happens before we were talking about, because if the businesses are sorting trusting spark.

So they're just just I know, there's no right answer. So I'm not putting on the spot. But if you had a billion dollars, would you do power or would you do a.

Road to Calabar.

I'm going to do power power first. Okay, Again, that's just I just want to get shot of you on that. All right, perfect, you appreciate that. So hey, mister Diana, Hi, Welcome to Austin Senna.

How doing the goora is a slave to.

Twenty two verse seven? Is Nigeria entering a death trap? I call it a thing.

Called not a death trap. I see more of us inferiatic complex because we depend on the Britain. The state is they tell us jump this way, you jump jump that way.

So there's no homegrown economic outlook, there's no underpinning for the decisions they made during.

The Diverse conference.

While speaking on TV, I'm saying, oh, the traffic for the airport was too much, Minister of Transport Vision, let's start.

Doing the second railway, second wrong.

Way for the airport.

What did that tell me?

That told me that there was no processes to the decisions that they make. And every decision you make has a political, environmental, human and financial implications. So the decisions are approps, not data based. So on the legos, I just want on the opinion? What data given that?

Just the question those who do not.

Know the purposed of pain, they can never put wealth to best use and never aim for the.

Land lights until you can light up the world.

What do I say? But as they said, you cannot solve a problem with the same Thingking that created it. Their innovative funding strategies to developing an economy, to building iconic projects.

They done globally and locally.

Egypt built the Swiss Canal Extension, sent the three kilimters.

It was worth eight point five billion dollars.

Egypt looked inwards, so I said, borrowing is actually inferiorly complex.

Borrowing is still not understanding the gun Victor development.

Because if China grew an our economy by a GDP from ninety seventeen to twenty thirteen, by over one hundred percent, by what you call total factor productivity, and you got to China to borrow money, not to learn one. Total factor productivity underpins my brothers and sisters.

We canna help you.

Second to the projects. It's not just pushing on projects. The cost of delays to projects are actually higher than the cost of the projects themselves.

Because when the standard.

That is road and two terribly away from Julius, Burger and Patty.

To set trackle I smiled, because if you.

Look at inflation and the major cost of project is mobilization, So.

Why are you mobilized?

Motor science, you do mobilize them if mobilize those size you mobilize them. Even the cost of congestions, the couse of traffic and construction in Ue.

Traffic for those projects is higher than the projects.

So there's a lack of holistic project outlooks in Africa. We look at costs only on a monetary basis. We don't look at it on the other protesting centers like congestion, like mobilization, like cost of delays.

Now let's go to death.

Twenty twenty four, your death servicing was thirteen trillion. It rose by sixteen percent from the previous year. I'll just say notes of that. And the debt issue is not just local. I'll say the debt is global because when Grace we wanted to join EU to adopt the Europe in nineteen ninety nine, when it was ushered A, you refuse to allow Greece because their death continue ratio, which was the threshow and the conditionality to adopt the euro their debt to dipperation was above sixty percent.

So death it gives the wrong signal. Cost of borrowing goes up.

Where you keep borrowing, the conditionalities contionalities are attached to your borrowing sequences, which are affect the answer of trade. Your costom borrowing proves to me, and your your pension for borrowing proves to me that you're lacking innovation because they're you know, the fitty strategies like sensitization and many as we cannot count on your competitiveness drops and the weakness to the effectiveness of your policies.

But I would say this of the current president, a broken clock is right twice a day. One is obsessed with lakers.

I give that to him because if the order state governors that's obsessed with.

The way it is obsessed with lacus Naitria will not be wareh is two. He's a good student of history.

What do I mean?

He lands from the best PDP and live that part of posterity.

What is the way forward?

Children win elections, great minds, transform countries, link and you transforms in the performance third world economy four hundred dollars Jilly capital in nineteen sixty today to a first world economy. Chepe the capital of ninety three thousand dollars. Norway has proven to us before our face and oil and gas country and economy like us. In nineteen sixty seven, they set up the government pension from global or in my colleague.

Norwegian server world fun. Why they had a collective outlook.

They underpinned it on an innovative client strategy.

For the common good of their people. They didn't just follow the back wagon.

Because you go to Norway, brothers and sisters, there are no skyscrapers in Norway.

There are no pocus pocus projects. No, it's a simple country. No high rises, no big museums, no major theaters, no international conference centers.

Because they know all that has no impact on the economy. They focused on doing best what.

Was needed to be done. They put their best food forward. What did they do, said phones?

They filtered their crude oil headings. They defied the crude oil costs because the resource cost Because while the other resource cause countries.

Are deepending the Nigeria to the world for the for trillion, they're back to borrow to at one billion. Either goes to a sorry, but.

No way as to the build their Cubermo phones to one point seven trillion United States dollars. In conclusion, I see intellectual inferiority complex, I see lack of innovativeness and like a that I in said, you hire a part of the problem out of the solution, and you cannot create. You cannot solve a problem with the same thinking that created it. Going forward, Nigeria is a business row your

Nanda needs a business.

Have been fictional leader who understands Joe politics, economic on the current and fills the past of the people.

God bless the nan genera with a righteous leader in.

Jesus pray amen.

But I don't run away to the first place. I mean, I like the fact that you talked about that cinema wants to develop legos. That's the point that you have to make with the fact that the road has been built. In the end, the road has been built. What he could loves and building an adulta? What do the patting job building on goal states? Even Harry, what the debuilt and cartina?

I mean, I get I get it. I'm just going there.

I'm going there because if everyone has built his own community build a terror by now, what have had you know, more things done in Nigeria.

I get that part about him. I'm not mad at him. I'm all concerned with getting that road built.

But let's come back to the decission not borrow for now, even China at when they have the heroic as they borrowed right right now? Are you saying that we can achieve what wants a center of infrastructure without borrowing?

Can you give us a part way if you want to build nest of this road?

Now?

How can they would have borrowing if you could?

Please?

The big question discussed? Like I said, really want economic forum ourselves.

During Jatte twenty.

Fourteen fifteen, I noticed something that Jonathan was taking. Decisions are literally which means people invest us look at your leaders.

So just like when I listen to anybody speaking, I'm thinking what is the foundation and they are the planning of how we are taking this decision? Was it a business case? That's why the journey say.

Business are a leader that understands your politics, economic on the current and kills the possible people. So by Jonathan just saying because there's a need, let us put a second wrong way.

When I know that the heatrow wrong way in the UK is.

Running at ninety nine or nine percent capacity, how many placed land in the North Africa?

As you will say you need a second wrong way, So I really see it thinking.

Thinking is not optimization. The thinking is a post focused less spend the money too. The beauty of infrastructure is not to borrow money. Were using infrastructure to borrow money. Infrastructure first, like roads, is the largest and.

Most visible asset of government.

This is how people know that the government sexual forty subsection to be like dress Constitution says this securated the worth of the people. So the propart concerns of governments, So how do you give people up six of governments? Infrastructure is what they can see first. And if you're under pinion for infrastructure just as a minutes of borrow money, that's not the intern for infrastructure, which are using infrastructure to adopt technology. So I'm saying the other peniag for

Calum Egypt built France tried to build the Swiss Canal. They tried for years. It collapsed after wasting money.

It was in eighteen ninety seven they now finally moneage after people have died. It was a field project.

The commission is now one general assist.

The current president was about to do the extension. The original LT was one ninety six kilometers. No I wanted to had about half of that size, seventy three percent.

One of the seventy three kilometers. One of the major issues they had them was funding it.

The funding came from external But now what did eg do Egypt was innovative seventy three kilometers extension Swiss canner.

A global projects that concert across the ocean and reduce this navigational business is an economic game changer. Now they wanted to expend it. What did they do? One they taught in wards. Two they were innovative, which was they were not inferior.

The money is in Nigeria pro Mmm therese dicam people, these sabers, they just this, there's this coming people. That's why Nagreney said business ary leader because exactly people see that you understand the numbers and that you have a business case, they would not invest in this. How did Egypt create the eight point five billion dollars on over subscribe?

They tend people to stop bringing money. The world was surprised, the whole world when.

When the project was permissioned, he put out their worships.

The whole country was watching. The whole world. Theatter was giving. That was in nother project. How they taught in words, they founded this form within They.

Sold dollar certificates to their citizens, then put.

Into it as an investment. Nowhere is not high by this. I just got to I go to Toronto. I just go to New York. I see as skyscrapers and sower. What's my business now? I said no, I will not do follow. I will not do mob thinking. I will think out of the park. I will not just say it because I have money for crude.

Let me build the terms I Conference center, Let me build the National Theater, let me build this, let me build The money is going to non service sector of the economy, because the sectors of the economy. If you build, for example, every kill everyone willing spends on.

Highways, you do about seteen thousand jobs.

So let's do the sectors.

How much would you found into these sectors that will spread the economy most so nowhere did not journey bad. Now I say I will save my money. I will bring this money. Let's say that money for legals. Let me give an example a legos I can. If I have that money in my hands as president, I have ten trillion, I will look and I completely project.

In ten years, you say them, I will look overseas.

Can I found a toll roads in Canada and I will dogle that money in three years bring back the investments to fund money in Nigeria.

That's what the Norwege of servitor fund.

That's done to the wars with the Atulia, that's what they cannot the pressure phone that's done to the June they awards.

So the while looking out what to borrow in, want to to press to pressure ourselves. When am I supposed to look in, want to be no fitting out, want to make profits. I must not fund project in Nigeria.

If they project me more profitable Ladia, if the productill be more profitable Insidia, if the probably will be more profited in Suitland, I would.

Take my dress money and invest the national a n s I.

A the investment excellent investment I'm I will inventing money there, get a high return, it's gonna rise.

It's it's hedge against the currency fulling. Even if the cursive for three.

Thousand, I would do that instead of to go bull dollar beauty roads. I do not complete it in thirty years, Like the second Nada bridge, the dollar price goes up, the gaps to fund, the death servicing increases, everybody's facing ourselves cost focus.

Thank you, thank you.

I think everyone would have gained, you know, to So essentially, instead of taking a billion dollars to invest in Nigeria, take a billion dollars invest yield a return. Even if we get four percent return, that's going to be forty million dollars in ten years.

You still have your principal back. Use the four million dollars and start the road. You have your one billion, you have the road funding two to be to one more or less. Well, it's an idea and I think I see some sense in it, and I think it's also something we can also do. The point is local direct investment is also not been positioned as a potential revenue source local investment looking at a foreign tex investment.

This road that we're talking about, can be built and funded locally. I also agree with you that it can be built out for it locally.

Like we said, design the road, divide that road into park kilometer mile. You will have folks that have brought to say I and my school folks who are going to do this working. You still pay to the consocial company or break that rode down. Let's state look ugment. I want to fund fund if by USO has the money that I'm fund there. If rivers have the money, let them fund there's let's move on, Ahmed, Thanks.