Enabling Economic Development Via Transportation Infrastructure

Hey, folks, welcome to another money space with me calu Aja. Of course, on this space, we're talking money, the economy, finance, and we want to make it personal to you, bring all those topics that you hear about in the news and bring it to you in a way that you

Okay, can you can you hear me?

Now?

No?

I can? Yeah, go for you bro.

Okay, all right, thanks, thanks kylu for having me here.

My name is Tanami.

And in terms of my day job, my day job, I work for the electric utility here in California. But I just have interest in transport and I have studied a lot about about it over the years, So I guess that's my that's my background, and I guess I'm open to whatever questions you want to ask regarding the topic of where we want to I'll go.

Tell me, let's start from rail. I just shared the REIL master plan. I'm sure if you guys can see go to my last tweet, you'd see the last I just shared. Now, now the Nigeria Reil master Plan to me, I know, I saw a comment that you did Ugo State government was gonna connect rail from Ugo State to the port in on it. That's besides in general, right if you look at the REIL master Plan, we are still operating the rail lines that the Klondel government built

Yeah, so in terms in terms of what Nigeria is doing right for real, at least it is in the consideration, so at least there's a plan.

So that's that's the right part.

The wrong part is the what.

Is being prioritized, what is being built and also.

How how the infrastructure that is built is operate. So those are those are the things that are that are being done wrong. In terms of the routing we there's a there's a tendency. It's not just real. It's the same thing with the road network. There's a tendency for Nigeria too to not course correct. We stick to old plans even though those plants are outdated. So yes, it made sense when the colonial administration, we're building.

These rail aliance for their administration.

But Nigeria has to look at what how the geography of the current how the geography of the current population is, what's the population distribution, what is the movement of different items regarding food, people, goods and then days our plan on that. But we just keep sticking to this colonial plan of Legosticano legos to Carano, Legosticano put out to Madogree and we don't do it. We don't re evaluate, we don't make any corrections, and if we do make adjustments.

To it, it's.

Like very.

The adjustment don't really add value.

They are very minimal and they don't add value to the to the to the larger picture.

So for for for the real.

Yes, we don't have no we we we don't have.

Any East west rail linkages.

And the only don't I don't know if you can call that East West linkage the linkage between Kaduna and Joss.

That's what I count.

But the when we want to build, when we want to build a realm okay. So that there's another thing too is how we how we phase infrastructure. So there's something about.

Rail where until you connect to.

Critical points, that real line, that rail line, once built is as good as useless. So if you just build so we we have this like for example, the link between Abuja and Kaduna, that is not a that is not a useful distance for rail to connect, and you build it in such a way that it is islanded and once it's built, the utility is their minimal. So that's why that road that that corridor is it's not meeting any ridership expectation, it's not transporting any goods, it's not doing anything.

It's just there.

Then you still but you have to pay the loans on that on that road, you're not getting any utility out of it because we don't phase properly.

So you want to connect.

The critical points and you want to do the entire corridor for those critical points.

First of all, so you do so in essence, if you're going to do you want to do the canal. You want to do the jaws, you want to do the midigree, and it's like a Hobburn spoke approach more or less.

Yeah. So for example, let's say we want to stick to.

The colonial colonial plan. We want to build Legos to Carne. Fine, let's stick to that. If we want to phase that properly. The critical city is on those corridors Legos, Abuja and Kano. So if you're going to face that project, you can only the only the right way to face that project is two phases Legos to Abuja, Abuja to Kando. Any other phase implementation you're wasting resources because that resource is going to lie underutilized. So that is a major problem that we have when we phase things.

So we did.

We did Legos to Ibadon and then we stopped Iba, we stopped and.

Then is blank.

And then despite the fact that Legos to it is a short distance, but it is.

An okay okay corridor, I mean it's it's it has some utility.

But then we don't.

Operate it properly.

We run only two trains a day the same way. The trains even less than what the trains we're running vacuum the colonial era gotcha.

So that is so those are those are the failings that we run into when we when we try to build or implement real infrastructure in Nigeria.

Let me give you numbers and I just share a twet. Guys, if you only just go to my Twitter, share a tweet. Now it's on the real economics in Nigeria and you can see what they've done here. I'm not sure who did this study so I can give credit, but I wasn't done by me. I know if you did it telling you, but I can give it so I can give credit. It's real economics right. It talks about the reil lines in Nigeria. So what they've done here is to pick the existing rail lines right Legos to portar Courts,

Yeah, I can see, I can see the chart.

So so so that.

Chart I created that chart based just calculating readership based.

So you did it, Yeah, yeah, great, yeah, great, great, great, excellent, yeah.

Based on the populations and using a gravity model to see how the what the expected ridership will be based on the distance and the population of those different notes. So based on based on that, a line connecting Legos on each is the most viable real corridor because that covers a that is the highest density concentration of population, and that's the highest traffic corridor.

And it also so what also.

Helps kind of buttress this is also the traffic analysis that have been done.

By a f dB and in that.

Analysis, the and if they're looking at truck truck traffic, the most congested or the corridor with the highest amount of truck traffic is between Legos and Aicha.

So you have that corridor on.

That being in or experts way that is heavily congested with trucks because that is where the track, that is where the traffic is. So if we look, if we if we use these types of analysis to make our decisions on where we put our money in terms of the infrastructure, we're going to make better decisions.

And for some reason Nigeria is not really.

It's not putting the data ahead of making those decisions. The decisions are just made and then they just go with the decision regardless of whatever value.

Is gotten from that piece of infrastructure. So if we're going by this, what the country.

Should be doing, like all hands on deck is trying to connect Legos on each other or.

Vial. This is very real.

Yeah, this is, this.

Is this is this is by rail and on that corridor. The Legos Calaba is is Karba is just an.

Extension of the Legos to corridor. You branch off.

Of you use the same corridor from Legos on each a portal chord, and then you branch off of Abba for the extension to Klaba.

That will be a short extension.

So you get so that's so by building that corridor, you also you're able to.

Get the extension to Klabat by a short short branch. Is I think the Lego's portact word is about six hundred and seventy five kilometers.

The branch to Abbad is.

Only one hundred and twenty one hundred and twenty nine one hundred and thirty kilometers.

It's a very short branch.

So you and then you see that traffic.

Onto the same corridor, so you get this more utility out of building that corridor and that.

Is what we should be doing. And in terms of getting.

So that gives you the most viable east west corridor on the country. And then when you're looking at the north south getting Legos to Abuja, the current to the current plan, I would say the current plan is fine. Like the current plan, they're going from Legos Ibadon Aline Mina, Abuja and then extension to to Cano. That's fine, and that that's a corridor that should be.

That should be good. But the one with the highest quality definitely is Legos.

On each aproduct, let's to let's touch roads. So we agree that the Legos to the East to West railway is the most viable, has the most cargo. Again, just Legos to Abaton is still part of that link. Right. What about roads? Right now, we have this quote unquote Coastal Road, a brand new coastal road. Before the coastal Road, we have the East West Road. Again, guys, if you go on that the street, I shared the Nigerian twenty

Yeah, So in terms of road and rail, they serve their complimentary so that in terms of rail real needs the most.

You need more prioritization in terms.

Of what corridor you need to build when you build rail, because the thing with rail is.

In order for that infrastructure to.

Be utilized optimally, it needs to be in a high, very high traffic density corridor.

That's rail. Uh, it needs to be in a very high traffic density corridor. So when so you pick a high high traffic.

Density corridor and build you can build a rail link, but.

You also need you also need uh a road link because the thing they road.

Is more allows you to disperse.

You have more jump gens allo allows you to distribute like you can get in. You can feeding more.

You can feeding distributed traffic onto the corridor. Unrail you have like stations along it and only those stations have access.

But the road can bringing those kind of act as.

A feeder onto the onto the railway and the railway just acts as the main.

Trunk line for the for the for the highways.

The there's there should be like if we want to build.

Like enable economic development, we have to build both. We have to build both radio and highways. But in terms of the highways, we also have to build the right highways. So so let me go over over the highways a little bit.

Currently we have four North South highway.

Corridors in in Nigeria and yeah, those we have.

The A one that is going from Sukutu to.

Uh Jemba, Ilari, Chagamo, Legos and then.

East of that you have the A two from Daura.

Kano, Abuja, Benin City, Warri Port Hacord and then you have the A three going from Madugurrie, Bauchi, Jaws, Marko, d Abah Port Hacord.

And then you have the A four which is named from Madugurri.

Jalingo, Koja and Calaba h So those are the main north south roads. Just as we lack east west rail linkage, Nigeria lacks good east west highway linkages. So if you look at the east west, the only major east west route is East.

West Road.

Going from Less be named on Nita and then there's a huge gap before you get to.

There's a huge gap.

Until you get to Cookie before there's another bridge to cross to cut across. So and then when you look at traffic, When you look at traffic, if you want to in terms of prioritizing what highways to build or where to put money into, you have to look at where our bottlenecks are and how to releave those bottlenecks. So on our urway network we have they are like three major bottlenecks on the highways.

The number one.

Bottleneck despite the fact that it's not a lot of traffic, it's not as much traffic as on the east west side. But because there's a there's a scarcity of access. The local Ja access is the number bout one bottleneck in the entire Ninjera highway.

System because all traffic. We have a huge traffic.

Demand coming from in terms of in terms of goods, you have a lot of agricultural products coming from the Middle Belt, the northern part and going towards the west, the southwest going towards Lagos and the only route so all that traffic has to be routed through Local Jack to get to Lagos. And then you have all the traffic from the southern part of nigera.

And also into goods moving between the.

South and the northern part of Nigeria that's from Port Harcourt, Southeast region, they have to go through the same local Jack access, so everything gets clogged up on there.

So in terms of when we want.

To prioritize highways is how do we relieve that we leave that bottleneck? Same thing with the legos on each on eacha is a huge bottleneck and how do we relieve it. Yes, to build this second Niger Bridge, and that's a good that's a good initiative, but that's just the bridge. It's still don't traffic onto the same road, So it sort of solve the problem.

But the entire stretch has to be.

Has to be completed to get the value of that.

Second Niger Bridge, and we need and we need another linkage like in between those two.

We need another linkage like from.

Ida between Ida and Againybody, there's that is like a prime spot for an east west highway linkage and that's something that we should we should be building if we look at how we want to relief relieve all those bottlenecks.

If we build a.

If we build a diagonal highway from.

Legos to Maiduguri, cut through.

All the north south highways, get a bypass around Lokoja, you have you have a new route that all that traffic can fit through and.

Actually relieve a lot of the corridor.

And then from there from Akuai you can build an east west an east west link through Ida and again Body to Enugu and Abatlki and you have what you have an east west corridor and that links up to what the federal government is currently building with the Abuja to.

Kaba Highway and so that serves that relieves.

The bottlenecks within the existing network and create generate so degenerates new new economic activity. Now, if you look at what the government is building with the Scotwo to Badagri, it cuts it goes through a border that doesn't serve any of the existing population. And the same thing with the Legos Calaba Highway. And that's another thing with the not changing plans le Goes Calaba and Soco to Badagrie

Today they don't really they don't serve.

Yeah, I mean don't say as well, yeah, you've been diplomatic to I get it. But again, if you look at Nigeria, this is year two twenty five, right, and Niger at nineteen sixty. All the roads and rails we have apart from this huge investment within the nineteen seventies, I think it was undergo and we build the Legacy bad On and the Legos being in it's still almost the same. We've got to be expanded added one lane. There's been no massive like in like you're talking about

Floor, okay, thank you. So in terms of in terms of waterways.

The the waterways can.

Definitely augment our transportation transportation network. The the thing is like each each mode serves a serves a different utility. So if the waterways is good for like low value high weight commodities like if you're moving gravel, building materials, cement, if you're moving steel, you're moving or and so it's that the waterways make a very good also agricultural products because those those that tend to have a lot of a lot of weight.

And water doesn't have water has.

It's not as it's it's always it's cheaper per kilogram to move water move on water, but you have a uh, it's not as fast, so you so you tend to move goods that are not very time sensitive onto the bargains that are heavier and non time sensitive.

And rail and road is faster.

Road has more, Road has more distribution points access points than real has. Real has fewer access points. But everything, you can integrate everything together. In terms of our waterways. Uh, the so in the.

Northern reaches of the northern reaches of.

The countries, yes, those are rivers, but there are lots of lots of rapids, so they're not like actually connected. The only like useful waterway section is the AH from the Gulf to local Ja and then you go and then you go east on the on the Benley River. So that's the only I would say, if we want to use a major.

Water AH water corridor, So that's the only that's the only one.

But it needs a lot of it needs a lot of investment.

It needs.

Then I mean, you know when we had the one that we didn't know what.

One thing with.

Dredging it is not a one time thing.

The d because because because.

Of the gradients of the slope and also the just the nature of the rivers, you have to constantly dredge.

So it's you. So it's so that's.

The maintenance that's needed to maintain maintain those waterways.

So you have to constantly dredge them. And then you have you have to you have link.

You have a limitation on how the amount of uh draft that you get in the dry season, so that will also reduce the carrying capacity of the river.

But yes, it can be and it should.

Be incorporated into the transportation network. For example, we have like we see the I've always pushed back against all the agitation.

For deep sea port in the in the in the eastern.

Part of Nigeria because you have to building for structure where it makes where it makes sense. In terms of port infrastructure, focusing on the same thing, we focusing on bottlenecks, focusing on bordernecks generates more value than spreading. Spreading your spend on new on new ports. So if we focus on the bottleneck that is legos, so that is where all the investments should go for ports, and then we have an interconnected system.

Where for example, you have the big ships who.

Come to Leky and then the barges will leave Leggy Leggy and.

Distribute to the other smaller ports Sailorry or Caaba.

And also the barges will take some of that cargo operator to on NHR loco Ja and you have a system where the rest of manager can still be served, but we are doing it more efficiently because no major carrier is going to haul at some port in.

Ibaka because that's not where the demand is.

They're going away with demanded.

So all the major ships are going to call at Legos. So what we need to do is how to integrate that into the rest of the system.

So and I just shared again, I just shared told like a budge these flat barges that are using in Germany. They can go very very low draft if you look on the on the time I just shared one of those barges. Again, I think we need to port one in Legos and one of the far side of Nigeria, maybe in Calabar or Aqui Bums somewhere like that where they are the sapal ones that are smart when compared to Legos. So you have two entry point just for redundancies.

Yeah, definitely, there is the routes of the coastal road is just like.

The terrain is that's the nightmarriage terrain. Looking at the SIA.

Correct the going through all that swamp, all that multiple bridges that are going to be needed swamp in Marshland.

Yeah, I think.

It's like there's nobody living there.

But it's the point. Is the point again, if you raise this point on Twitter, if you say the road should not be built, you're going to get abuse. But the point I make again is this the East West Road is connecting the state away from the coast. You know, if you go to America, they have their roads on the coast, but they don't have that. There's no Florida Everglades Highway. There's California, no scenic routes, wasn't on that road.

Yeah, we clearly that's the biggest problem.

Oh yeah yah, yeah, yeah, you're fine.

Yeah, I think yeah, it's a timely drop.

The infrastructure is always key. Well targets that infrastructure.

Development is always key to develop the growth.

And I'm I'm actually grateful to have this bad because I actually have a few questions as far as just figures. So you've mentioned a bit about your points, and I want to understand myself.

Just the cost of to the Nigeri economy if you do have those figures on the cost of the Nagery economy of the current points, that's the first question. The question is if you have been painting a picture to government politicians, what do you see.

As the biggest the prospect on what in value at the moment, Let's say if we have because currently it's always good government. Government budget is always going to be limited. If you had to target certain projects or certain areas to have the largest impact, now, what areas would that be and if you have you have a sense of figures as well on that on how much value by leaving on the table, by having by targeting these specific project So I.

Just give those first two questions if you can give us some.

Light on that. Thanks, Thanks Eppable for those questions. So for the first one.

In terms of the costs for the choke points.

I don't have any any value on what's the costs of those.

Choke points to the coignland during economy. And also for the other probably or for the other one. In terms of the second question about the biggest prospect to unlock value for if I would say, if it is for all the for all the info, for all the different forms of infrastructure in Nigeria, something that will unlock the most value right now, if we like just put money on it.

Would be.

A Legos to mad Degree highway that will unlock because there it will because it doesn't just serve Legos and the Degree, it serves a vast amount of the population along the corridor. So that will unlock a lot of value. I don't know what the monetary value is, but definitely that would unlock a lot across different UH value change within within.

Nigeria and and.

Uh and I would say a second a second to that will be a will linkage between legals on each other port hardcore. So those are the two Those are the two items that I will say will unlock the most value for the country in terms of infrastructure.

After it is why you want the monetary value just just curious.

Because in Jerry speaking of an infrastructure, if we're very realistic, government budgets always limited and in painted and pictures it's clear that infrastructure is to be required. But in painting and pictures to politicians or ministers, that's assume they were

Importance of it, why it's so immediate, and.

Also they're we targeted, we targeted infrastructure developments. It's all like again when you we you put pretty put value and you see it in these studies, infrastructure studies of what it means. They take you take the UK for example, when you had the High speed and the HS to debate that's been going on for ten years, that most of the people people supporting that project focused on how much value has been unlocked in terms of figures, in terms of the economy. Was a contribution to the cities

It should make it easier for this politicians.

I would say this if I was with the President and I was with the Senate and they said, listen, how much did this cost? I would say, there, it's nothing, no project that's gonna be listed. It's gonna cost you less than two billion. When I mean two billion, I mean to start, not to complete two you have to have two billion funding lined up to start, not to complete. It's gonna get get to ten, but have two. That's number one. So how when you if you say how do you pay for it, You're gonna get into the

Yeah, you see the evidence today, the long development. It's not eighty twenty thirty fifty and.

You forget about it. Yeah. So it's a great question. Is that what you want to ask? Let me gound the room, let him.

Ask my questions.

Okay, I have some other things to letting.

Go perfect, All right, let me get a Chuka checker. Your handles up, you've got the flow, Please go ahead?

Yeah, thank you.

Believing Carlo, beliving in atonomy now is one day I from what you guys have said, we can look at the east west through this is the most economic viable

That's my question to America can answer. But let me just give me a thing. I think the key idea is trust. Nigeria can raise all this money, all this money internally and also externally from her dasper. But can you imagine which governor do you think can go to a meeting of the daspora in say uk or say Dallas and say, I want you guys to give me a million dollars. If you give million dollars, I'm going to build a real way to connect this town to

Yeah. In terms of in terms of funding for big infrastructure projects, the.

Uh, the only.

The only way that they can get off the ground is if the government funds funds the project, even from the budget or by taking on launch the the current legals the legals Color Highway, they say it's thirty percent of funded funded from the budget and there they haven't secured loans yet, but supposedly they're going to get seventy percent of the rest of the funding from a different

The the value is not it's not like a highly profitable adventure because a lot of the value is distributed across different sectors, so.

It's not it's not something that that will be very lucrative as a private investor to put your money into.

So it's going to be difficult to secure privating to secure private investment to fund major.

Infrastructure projects that we need.

Just because of that reason that they're not the most lucrative forms of lucrative avenues for investment. So the government has to do the heavy lifting and funding those projects.

And if you look at Nigeria in terms.

Of all the major projects that we have, they've all been they've all been government funded because if we wait for private investment is never going to happen because the amount of money that you need to do it is a lot.

And the thing is you.

Need to do it quickly because the longer it takes. So if you kind of say, oh you're going to wait to stretch out the fund, the longer it takes to execute, the more expensive it gets. So it's just it's just more efficient for the men to even get it from.

The budget or get secure arm.

Government loans and build a project as quickly as possible and that way you start getting the benefits of that infrastructure to the economy from there.

I wanted to lead me that with nias have to understand this this right, I think the the mindset has to change. You know, when we had oil in the seventies, the government built everything. We had the industrial Plan one, two, and three, where governments built universities, express roads, railways, power, and I tel that's the wrong model. You cannot develop a country with governments spending. It's not being done ever.

Okay, hi came and Tonami and the very person here. So mine is more like on the question side because to an extent sometimes I have a bit like lost to talk to why it's certain things don't happen. But I'm just trying to because I've been following Tonami for a while and I know his very good at transportation. So you did mention to me you would rather invest

What's something I know that yes.

Because they are very they get they need a lot of dredging and maintenance and all of that. But would that not be a favorable point because from there we can be able to access a lot more in the sense that one you can connect the real lines on both sides, and you can also be able to now use badges to be able to convey more inland and upland to the notes and all of that other places.

So I just wanted to know about that.

Why is that not something that's been considered and considering the fact that these places were part puts in the past and that then.

Also I want you to just understand in terms of from.

Rail lines in Nigeria, what would you recommend in terms of currently I know that there's a worry Cogi States and line that has already been done in terms of linking that because I conly believe that there's a whole lot of economic activity happening the southeast and if we talk about one of the easiest points, will that not be an easy access to be able to connect that real line and connecting const that particular rail line also

Yeah, thank you shape let me go over the first one in terms.

Of why.

Why we don't build a or use the Worry access as a point of entry to serve the hinter land.

The issue reports is that they require.

It's all, they require a lot of infrastructure.

I mean in order to utilize to maximize the utilization of that infrastructure.

You need.

A really large flow of traffic to justify that investment. So in West Africa. And the thing is Nigeria is not an island, it's it's in the West African port ecosystem.

In West Africa. We currently have.

Before the Laky Deep Seaport became operational, we had the two main we had. The first modern transcriptment center was the Port of Loma and then the Port of Tama in Ghana opened and then Leaky Deep Seaport opened. Currently they're building they're building up port a new deep seaport in Senegal.

But traffic to West Africa you'll have. It's not just it's not just Nigeria. All those sports.

When major shipping lines are sending goods to West Africa, they pick the point where there is infrastructure and they can what you call it return or offloadership as quickly as possible.

Offload the cargo as quickly as possible, so.

In and then when you have there are only so many places that you can build those you can't be Lone Port has simply one point six or one point I can't remember this as close to if it's close to two million capacity, about the same capacity with Tema and Maki Dipsyport. Currently the Phase one is about one point six million TEUs in terms of container traffic and they can expand it to two point.

Six or something like that.

The current demand in terms of TuS from Nigeria is less than what the expanded capacity of Leky dip Syport is. So if you're going to build another port in Nigeria, it's not going to get any traffic because Lecky dip Syport can handle all that traffic. The way we have to look about look at it is we use Leky Deep Saport as a transshipment point and then.

Serve all the smaller ports along the coast.

There is no the fact that the big cargo ships are going to Leggy doesn't mean that the other parts of Nigeria excluded. Every part of Nigeria benefits from them because we get a more efficient shipping system. In terms of the second question about the linking, in linking the worry ettack by rail line to report and using that as an access point that the Worry to Attack by line is it's a very I always say.

That's an old friend line.

That is because the amount of population that.

It serves, it's not It does not justify the investment.

So if we're going to spend on building a rail infrastructure connecting into a port, that is not where we should.

Be spending spending the money on.

Because actually have pointed out here we have limited resources. We have to put the money where we get the most value out of it.

So putting the money where there's value.

The currently the Worry port can be served by barges. It does not have to be the main entry point because we are may have that infrastructure in place, and the best thing that we can do in terms of utilizing our resources is maximizing the utilization or optimizing that piece of infrastructure than spreading and defusing that diffusing those resources to other areas and getting coordinating with barges to

What if our passengers are.

Being carried up on that line right now can be served by buses. There are currently no cargo being carried on the line and it's not serving any utility.

At this point in time.

So we have to make sure that we are put in our resources where we get the most value. Are not just because we need to put this piece of infrastructure in a place.

I mean, I agree with you, but you're gonna get a flaky I mean you use the right word attack bent to warries an off fundrail. Remember, guys, this was the reel that was built for Joao Kuta Steel. When our Jao Kuta was being built, there was no delta state. There was no delta state. This was a port that was built so that they could take the iron ore to attack me, to get the beatrified, and then take it back to our job because it had nothing to

For so it real lined from Mori to Onnja.

Yes, yeah, so that's it falls into the same the same category.

The Anita can.

Be served by barges directly from Lecky. So if you're going to put another interface, uh, because transhipment costs.

Both time and money to the cargo.

If you're going to put another interface of transhipment is going to increase the cost of moving that cargo. So just taking the taking the cargo from Lecky straight to Anita, it's already. That's already the solution in terms of getting the cargo to Anita without going via the legals on NITA Expressway. The problem I don't know how. I haven't looked into the details of how the logistics or how n PA handles transhipping, because I know from past.

It's not a.

Smooth it's not a smooth experience.

So if the NPA can work with the shippers on streamlining that process of moving moving.

Of transhipping goods, that would be a major.

That would be a major boost in terms of cargo movement from to and from ports or the entire country in general.

Well, worry to worry too, fair Bardge is viable in your opinion, Yeah.

Worry to worry too on EAHA is viable there bad via barges and also lucky to on HR as well.

Gotcha quick one shake? You had a quick one. On if I move to the next person, shake, you had a quick one.

So I just wanted to bring it so something else.

I like what you said and the fact that I let this deepsy post kind of cat out to our place in the West African corridor and also the transcripment line. And I like the fact that you also have resed the fact that the budgies can move directly to an h sports at the moment where we don't know how

The problem.

Yeah, thanks for that. My solution to that will be just to tell everybody to get real. That's it, just get real, because the.

You, in terms of.

The benefit that we get from a large population from the same quality, you cannot you cannot get that benefit from fragmenting transport investment investment based on regional regional politics.

Because if you.

Say, oh, oh all the ports are going to leave us, Oh, we need our own port in the southeast and then you go spend that money. That money could have been better spent on building the linkages to to evacuate the cargo from Lecky to whatever region that you want to get to. Because yes, I really see all the regional tend whatever regional tension is, is superficial, and I don't think focusing using that.

To guide investment. I don't think that's a wise strategy because you still have to.

Spend that money, and then why not spend the money in.

A way where you get more value out of it.

So because it's going to building a new port in other regions because of regionalization, it's not really we're not going to get much better.

We're just going to.

Have money parted and there's no value coming.

Out, unless, of course, you basically say we're going to regional government. Then of course that governance then supersed the economics of it. Like the point again is if you are going to be in Nigeria, then you've got to look at the mass of Nigeria and the markets in Nigeria. So then you have to work. You know, you go to work with the aman you have, so essentially you

Time.

Let's if you guys in here, Daniel go ahead, please.

Daniel, Yeah, thank you. It took the last words from my mom. But let me let me cite some example and then add some a few questions. My first question is around the concessionary project, the head Dam project that the last eight years if government worked on that had a couple.

Of highways handed over to some private.

Guys and strong, strong, strong consults.

You know what's happening with that? We are we on that? Why are we not seeing results?

You mentioned it empty and working on and on each other applied that road almost every other week, and it's still it's still not twenty percent completed.

You know what's happening with that?

And I'm going to ask a question, what do you think is the ability of doing an inland port in the city, maybe somewhere such that there's a twelve kilimitars railway that comes from protacot Port into about a sects such that it can actually take you know, the Enego, the protact inegal railway you know at some inter change goes to the north, so that if someone is bringing something to places like an intern ny and about also because of exports.

Too, so that it's I know that.

Any biocronomicity had full destination for origin in lab port license so that if we want to export to the West African coast, the Central African coast, we can actually put it on the rail the twelve kilimeters rail to Protacto that it goes out. I know the value of the Lucky deep Sea port. What the centralizes now economy. I'm thinking in terms of economic descentralization, but I know there might be.

Stronger arguements around that.

But you know, because if I want to export and I need to put it on the road to go to legos first before exports, it's discouraging and my enjoy is not really getting a lot out of our exports because because there is no structured export system, some people now use the back doors to export.

I know the quantity of show that leaves about, you know, to came room to lead so many West African states, but those guys go through dark roots and not strong part of that money goes to government.

Okay, so what's happening with our concession?

And happen this a concession solved this road problem as we talked about it with the route you discrossed, and what can in land ports do for us?

And then US.

Railway because I see the proposition.

In mad was they were going to have.

A railway line that moves anything that is destination and in BacT that drops important called the railway to their inland port and then everything happens at that point if we have closet off that across regions problem.

I think the points me. So you're basically asking critically, why we so just a simple question, photonomic and basically I get the backer. Just do that simple question. He was off. Just make sure he heard you. He just just added him back. So what was the simple question for him? None of his back? That's Turnamy was go.

Ahead, Well, okay, First, what's happening with the concessions or the concession heading my concession that happened for thirteen routes?

I guess ye, where are we.

On that and what's happening and how can that improve the major road infrastructure? And then having in land points as against having so multiple deep ports, having in love port where you know, if.

Something is full destination.

A particular in land port, it just gets the water and then road rail.

Okay to me that I think, I'm not sure. Two questions. What's happened to the the tax I think it's the tax credit concessions where you build the infrastructure and the government gives you back the money if you're a tax credits number one. Number two is basically saying why can we have more inland ports?

Right?

We have deep sa ports. I'm not sure if he's saying it should they should cancel themselves out. But it's asking really what's the viability of having more inland port. There's local ja, there's a nich in regards to if we're having a deep sea port in len In Calaba. So go ahead, thank you.

The So for those for those questions regarding the.

Concessions, I haven't.

I haven't followed those in detail in detail, so I don't. I don't know what's going on with with those concessions on how they're being executed.

But in terms of the in terms of the viability of re report those.

I would say those are actually those are actually useful. We don't have to look at it as.

One or the other.

Like we need we need especially for like industrial output when you have a.

Chemicals different other industrial.

Activity that need.

That need water access for efficient movements of their of their cargo. For example, you have the of the flour mills are always sighted at the ports down with a flower at bond Bua at port hardcore because they can get the shipments of flour directly at the directly at the port and those don't have to go to truck go via trucks. Then they process it into whatever cereal or.

Noodles or whatever part of those products, and so those those are those are necessary. But in terms of and also even in terms of contained container traffic, the thing with.

The thing with the deep sea port and linking those deep sea deeps, linking the deep saport to different regions is that's just the way modern shippers ship. If you have cargo destined for APA, it's not going to go directly from Guangzhou to Aba, It's going to go from Guangzhou to a major transhipment center and then usually and then it will be transhipped to Aba. So for example, if we have cargo destined for Anita, that cargo will go from wherever's coming from Shanghai, Guangzhou to LeKi and

So there's no.

Direct shipment that you order direct shipment to every single port. The port system in the world currently operates in a hubnspoke system. So whatever cargo you're going to getting another part of the country if that place is not a high demand center for right now in Nigeria. Legos is the demand center and that's regardless if you take out all the cargo.

That's going everywhere else.

Because all the manufacturing in the country is happening in Legos. That is the demand center, so all the cargo is going to go there. So all we have So what we have to do is to make use of that node as an entry point because if you create another node, is there's no shepherd that's going to center ship directly to those places.

It's it's it doesn't really.

The idea of this decentralization.

It sounds good in it sounds good when you think about it.

But in practice, most ports around the world operate in the hub and spoke. If it is a major port, then it's going to be a transhipment center. If it is a minor demand center, then it's going to get this cargo that's trendship from a nearby port. And that's just the way the system, the shipping system is, and we just have to build an infrastructure.

To make use of it, make use of that if that's the way we can.

Yeah, and let me just let me just add this right, so you know, the private sector looks at P and L profit and loss revenues. If you are the governor of a state in the south south southeast and you desira port, my advice to you is to build one yourself and then use that as a template to show the private sector that it works. Then the private sector will follow your lead. So to answer your question directly, that is, should we have an inland port. Yes, nobody

You know.

I know it's a company that moves tiles from a nature to Niger State, but I'm not seeing lots of containers there. And what is hard in getting a badge and then taking the torture containers from legos there. It's not cheaper, but it hasn't boomed. And if it's not booming, that's a big red flag to an investor to say, why is in this port making it? If it's not making it, why should I invest more in it? So if you know why it's not making it, let me know,

Yeah, yeah, thank you very much.

Cal Please, I would want to push back on some things that you have said that if it's okay, yeah, yeah, so I head. Thanks for also enlightening nots and telling us you know that it appeared to worry real line was done because of the adjacutar still and everything. But I noticed you guys of the opinion that we should not that it's not really valuable, and you do not

I will remember one.

Time after boarding it, it took us over an hour before the train started moving because they said the train was having some issues and they had to fix it quickly, and so on and so forth. But I can tell you that every time I've passed through that place for passengers using it, I think there is a lot of volume. There are a lot of people going through it and everything. Number two is that I did a quick search and

Every year, almost every year.

I think it was just recently they started making gains on their reil lines. They've been making losses, losses, losses. But because they know that this is these are very very important facilities and infrastructure for the people, they have been investing, investing, investing. So I just wanted to say that. Now, my question to Tsonami is very simple, what are the possibilities of private the private sector investing in all of distance?

What do they call that other boss line.

Again, I've been trying to see how they can talk to the government to invest in need to also try and see how they can own coaches and run some of these things there. What are the divisibilities on some of these private investors going into it? Do you think it would be wise for private investors actually running the rules instead of n r CEO Nigeria with commission or

Correctly, are you the microphon?

Now?

I still have more about you the microphone? Thank you?

Do you want to go first?

Okay, yeah, yeah, I think yeah, yeah, Thanks Thanks all x.

SO for the first one regarding the uh.

Wait you're talking it talks about what to attack, but he's sort of pushing back on the fact that listen, we're saying it's not really commercial. Also, he's sney case

Yeah, okay, yeah, thanks for quite Fryan. So for the worry tappy route. In regards to China funding funding their infrastructure projects, a lot of those projects are are heavily planned and they are distributed based on.

Based on resource.

Yes, they have fringe projects that are done for done for political reasons, but majority of the of the real projects in China are funded. And also the poor projects are funded based on the amount of demand for those for those places, Yes, they also project demand, but.

They build, but they those projections are based on based on the existing reality.

Now in Nigeria, if we want to say worry type way, if we want to keep spending money the amount of money the Nigeria, we don't have that much money to spend on infrastructure.

For something like they real line, it needs to have a ton of traffic.

On it to get the most utility out of it. The current population. Along the worry type of yes, you might go to a train station and the train is full, but that doesn't matter what matters is how many writers that train serves annually.

If you you might.

Have full trains, but then if you have service, if you have trained service once a day or twice in a day, it doesn't amount. It doesn't amount too much. So the trains might be full, but that doesn't mean that there is a lot of ridership on that particular corridor. And that is one So right now, the population distribution on that corridor is so small. The amount of investment is going to take to get that ridership up to the level where it is justifiable, it's going to be immense.

We've neglected neglected the.

Corridors that have more potential in terms of in terms of ridership. So that is why I always I'm always advocating for removing our focus on the Worry attack Way railway as a passenger railway as a freight railway because it right now, in terms of the network, the Nigerian network system, it does not add any value that is reasonable to to the network. So so yeah, so that's that's for the for the worry attack way. In terms of private investments coming into infrastructure projects, it like for

It the if we say we want.

To bring private investors to run and operate rail is going they're going to run into the ground. That's the same process that've been repeated everywhere across the world where you're bringing private investors, privatize the.

Railways and then they run it into the ground.

Because it's just the incentives within the nature of rail is that you're not able to.

Capture all the benefits.

So if you're not able to capture all the benefits, then it's not going to be a profit profitable venture for a private investor. Yes, the Chinese government when they build rails.

They have they have operational losses. The government can the government can stomach those losses because.

The government can recoup the benefits.

In other aspects of the economy. A private investor will not be able to recoup.

That.

A private investor cannot say oh we want to collect money from taxes, from the traders and everybody else and all the other economic activity. A private investor can't do that. They can only get money from that particular traffic on that particular rail line. So for REIL, we should stay away from the ideal of private investors running rail because it's just going to make things worse for buses. We've been we've been doing it that way for a while.

Now we're using these.

Eleven seater buses where people are crammed inside and so it because I remember, I remember when I was traveling back in the nineties, early two thousand, we.

Entered we go to.

Uh whether it can edible, Chicu, Cisco and all those guys we're using take coach buses to travel across the country. And now you want to travel, you have to get into an elevency the bus where you're prampting luggage and you don't have you So that's the problem we have

Their coach buses.

So they decided, oh, let's go to a smaller bus so that we can fill it up and then move. But in operating inter city buses, you have to operate on a schedule.

So you operate on a schedule.

Whether the bus is full or empty, that bus has to move and until we have to get to that point where that is how we operate buses, we have to find a way to consolidate.

The services and also.

Spreading out and also consolidating like the bus terminals, so we have we have dedicated bus terminals and don't have distributed terminals in different parts of the city for different operators.

So those are the things that the government can do.

And I know some governments are already already already doing doing that, but the execution has leaves a lot of room for improvement. So that's something that we can do in terms of the for the bus services and then the private and the private operators can run the buses.

But in running the buses. They don't have to on a on a.

Full bus, don't move until the bus is full, a strategy which for most of the time that's how.

The buses have been operated.

It has to be on a on a schedule.

I want to.

Yeah so but you but you you recover the money over you have when you calculate how you run the route. People base people make their decisions based on that schedule. If you have a schedule, somebody trusts that, Okay, I am going to leave the part at this particular time when I get to this particular bus, people will make their plans based on that, and you make your plan, you make your what you call it, your operations based

That is yeah, I got you, not I hear what you're saying. But most of these guys are a momon pops or companies. Right, if you go to ABC, they operate to the set in fixed time. But Niger doesn't have this delped in like transportation companies. Again goes on fixed times. I remember back then to six am six fifteen sixty. They move. But once you go to the

Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you.

My question again goes, what is the possibilities of this mostly southern governances. We know because we are working on the issue is economic developments?

Can you hemy?

I can hear you.

Yes. The point is economic development? What is where?

What is the most viable to both the economy and we can we have analyzed.

As we should.

So why can't these governors with their short kilometer going through Legos to Ondo a door to Delta, Delta to a number, a number to Ego and we have river stage because that is the east west through connecting Legos via on HR and poor tackles you know for these real and also maybe you can have a it's a highway line from there you understand. So I want to know any possibilities.

I get.

Your question, I get your question, and so name you will speak. But let me just give you my own take. You know, when we start up, I said, the issue in Nigeria is this four year and eight year time limit. If you start today, you know, in the past, railways could only be built by the federal government of Nigeria, not the states. Only the federal government. Now states can build railways, but you can't build a railway get it operational. I would even say in four years. It's very very hard.

No?

So the problem is that it's no longer a governor. It cannot be a governor chasing it. It's got to be a region chasing it for the entire region. And the governor's job is just to contribute to money.

So you have That's that's what I said.

But that's that's where I'm going to. So, so if you fintance have the se DC, you have the naughtiest of no commission. You have the oldest domination over the place. If they simply say every quarter every month, we're going to transfer funds from our fac to this fund and you create an SPV. This SPV is the seat funding. So the government puts seed funding. But the government can also sell equity in this line to the diaspora Nigersey and daspora and they own the railway line because that's

Yes.

I just wanted to offer to three points on this issue. The first one is, like the Southeastern States, they are very very easy to be connected through a tram system. A tram line doesn't cost as much as the train line and it's equally the same purpose. You can serve the same purpose and very very dark costs.

Those trams are saying like in in in Germany, traming in Germany Europe carries carry Yeah, they.

Carry a lot so the fat is almost the same thing with the train. But the only good thing there is they use electric. It just connected to the sub station and then it powers it easily. It moves on. Yeah, it is electric. So because we have so many like if we go to the Eastern Corridor there we have some power station. There are quite a few power stations around. All you need to do is just to connect it there and the trams can just connect.

The whole East stays very very is very very cheaped around.

Very nice network and it's fat is not even going to take.

Too much to do, So that is one side of it.

Then I'm also worried about this Nigerian population projections. We are created to get to try to four to five U red million in the next twenty years, but it's like we are not planning for that, and it's one of the things that has struggled with all along.

Every time I look at the state budget.

In the Southeast, the capitol budget is always rude. Since I was born, he has always been rolled, and I tend to wonder if the rules has increased, if the land has increased, because it's like every every year the governors do the budget for the same road, that same road. You know, it hasn't increased in size, but he has always taken fifty to sixty percent of the budget on a yearly basis. And I think I have looked into

N you that there.

So what they do is rather than saying because in Europe, here I'll develop. Very frankly too, those whom maintain your roads here are not even dedicated. They're not even they didn't even go to invest They build the road that those people maintain ify. They drive every day looking for where there is a smart end and the patch the top roadworks is almost on a daily basis to maintain

It's like a conduit pipe.

We are.

Governors use it to wreke money, you know, and it really really annoys me too much because we have sort of put governors and add road building on top of it as a metric to measure the level of governance and what people are doing. And because we have done that, it's like you have sucked out the life of every other infratuary development.

We're not talking about interssualization. We're not talking about building infractures of.

That served as employment, like you know, having employment hobs, having manufacturing hobs.

You know, if I myself, I feel.

That the governor should even put more money in manufacturing and then led the companies themselves build the accessory that goes to their places. But that's how most of the towns in Europe are built, the building dossal area and then the accessory befollow through CSA.

That is one or that things.

One of that thing I also want to talk about and accidently local authorities to maintain their rows, you know, like you did mentionquay building in the temport. I paid, my dad measured that I paid. Every child paid their money who went to primary school in them days, primary secondary invasion all paid because we took ownership was so to us as this thing belongs to us, and because it was so to us, we are so passionate to pay for it. But this time around it's like the

What are they doing in Europe?

You can even go to carts Apular website and buy the entire machinery to describe.

The old one, put the new one and do it to raise and repeats two three terms in a year.

But it's like it's a very big revenue draining for these local authorities and governors.

They do that a lot and annoyment to help there.

You talked about the overcraft. The waterways. Europe is connected by canals. The build these canals to use it to move their heavehicles. They build it at that time of the height of the industrial revolution and instill serving them. We have waterways all across the country. It's something that we really really need to start thinking of how do we develop that. You know, it's a very easy thing, but it's like our people don't really have that vision to say, how do I do this? How do I

How can I do that?

You know, it's like the bigger things people I just fed looked up on.

The bigger We want the seaport, we want a rail line.

I honestly think that we need to connect intra we talk about the seaport, I think the roads and the rails connecting Nigeria all the state capitals. To me, says bigger even the seaport, because there's a lot of commerce that is lost. A lot of commerce is lost because we don't have roads. We have mango season. If you go to Benveested today, there's the mangos on the floor rotting the way, rotten away. If you go on tomatoeses into canno, tomatoes rotting away, onions rotting away. But there

At it from the transportation side of it, what I'm looking at is what stops ben from investing in technology to the excess mangos.

That is the point. But that is the point. But when you storage, you still have to move it. You still have to move it.

If you know it.

That's scale.

You cannot begin to have people who actually know what to do in terms of distribution.

I'm not I'm not disputing that. I'm just staying because we're talking more of transportation, the issue is still that you need to transport food from where it's grown to

Yeah, yeah, Just to circle back on that then, you said, my grandfather used to work for Minister of Works at the time when I was very very young. We used to go to the local authority. Every local government in this is done used to have a minister of works.

That keeps every road.

In termshape because the people in that minute, in that local authority have to go to work on a daily basis. But when we started this issue of contracts, that's when they begin to disband all this stuff. And yet Europe that we learn from still maintain that it is a local authority in England that build the roads. Within the local authority, it's them that maintained even the trunk air from b and even the access roads and all the roads that link to the to the major highway.

The way I know, the way I know it's a summer is that I see road maintenance. That's how I know it's summer. Once it's summer, that's maintenance all over the place.

We need to bring back that so that the governors to stop thinking about this routing wander eating billions and billions, and then at the end of the day the state passes through those local authorities that could have been better position. At least we're talking about creating of jobs. We don't have jobs. We don't have people who are even trained in the universities to do work in all these in in all these sectors of the economy that we're talking about.

You don't even see.

I don't even see the advantage for the people who are there in terms of revenue, in terms of employment. If you put it you lots bigger and they use sixty billion to build the road and the employeely ten people, what does that even tell us? And this is I think some oney tends. I feel that those who are I see them when I go to Nadia, and it really really scares me because that is not how it is done.

I got you to me. I mean we've talked a lot. Do you have any comments on the exchange? I mean, he's really going down to the maintenance side of it. Is this something that if you talk about again, if you had one point three trillion and you had infrastructure broken down, I personally would have focused on fixing the

Yeah, thanks modestas for our sharing, for sharing that information. For in terms of maintenance, it is a it is a critical part. Unfortunately, it is not glitzy or glamours lucrative for governors, so it doesn't get get the attention that it needs.

So governors always focus on what new project they're.

Going to bring in. If we.

Building building roads or any transport infrastructure is not just.

Building the infrastructure. You have to maintain that infrastructure.

And that's one thing why for example, like the states that have brought out their real master plans, because rail is something thats a lot of operational aptitude to be able to get it, to get the best out of it, and if you're not able to operate, then it's a total waste of resources.

So all those.

States that are talking about real master plant is rail mater blind that they'll be better served using that money.

To fix the roads.

Like you say, fix the existing roads, we have lots of very very poor roads that.

In poor conditions. Fix the existing roads to.

Allow people to move more efficiently within the states, so they'll get more value out of that.

It was a research done on the Chinese road road.

Infrastructure and a conclusion of the finding was that the the rural roads where they had a.

Was it economic value.

That was four times four times those of the major expressways. So there's a lot of value that is locked in and a lot of these rules that are connecting agriculture from agricultural source to points of consumption that or just just linking linking those rural areas so that they can get their products to the main roads. That would be that's a source of make out the a major value addition for the states. In regards to the part about In regards to the part about trams, trams are for

In Yeah, they only.

Serve the urban area because the trams they have the rails that are used for trams.

They're different from.

The rails that are used for for mainline rail.

Because they have to they're designed so that people don't trip on it, so it has a lower weight paring capacity, so.

And so that they can place it because they usually place them in the.

Streets because they have people walking across the streets, cars crossing across the street.

So in terms of.

In terms of using those trams are I would say trams are not really suitable for Nigerian cities because for the trams as a like main urban transit system, they only serve like very small cities.

Once your city gets larger than a million or more.

People, it's best to just build metal lines serve because the trams metro lines have higher carring capacity than trams.

Uh and for for intercity travel for passengers, that's.

Where the whole point of this regional this inter city rail it's it's it's different from a tram line. So that's like a mainline heavy heavy rail for inter city traffic.

For that.

Unless the like if it's for the southeast, unless all the states come together and build the entire route.

From Port Hardcourts to an Hl to Ugole, then it's not useful if you only build sections of it, like for example, the memo, build only the section within EMO, then it's useless exactly until.

You build the entire thing, then there's no point in doing in doing that.

So for the for the inter city reel, it's either the region comes together and builds it at once, or the federal government does it like the federal government has been doing for the other other railways, and the federal government takes the initiative to do it from the federal level. Yeah.

Otherwise it's it's just for the states. The states should not be having real as something that as something that is part of their infrastructure plan. It should be roads.

They should be focused on roads and linking those, fixing the existing roads.

And in terms of like urban.

Urban movement, they should be planning metro systems.

Not every state, not every city moves one.

Right now, the only city is that that need a metro in the.

Southeast apport maybe a BA, and they should.

Be planning for those, and they could start by running bus services and then they should be planning for those routes and fund.

Try to get funding for the major.

Corridors, and then you build those major corridors and you feed it with buses, and that's how you serve your your urban space. For the most a lot of Nigerian cities are way too big to be served by trams.

At this point, you might, well.

I do want to talk. I don't want to confirm why you think the states can do real. You set to focus on roads. Is it costs or if it still has got the money. Lego still has a lot of money, Acquiment has a lot of money, Delta has a lot of money. Why can't those states do real? Even Delta states are going to do a saba to whatever they can fund it. Why can't they do real?

Yeah?

The thing with the thing with reel is reel is only.

It's only useful for long distances, and most of the states in Nigeria the relatively. So if your state is not crossing many state lines, if the rail line is not crossing many state lines, then it's not going to.

Be that much valuable.

Makes sense, I get to know.

So rather than putting that money, tying up that money on that short rail line, it's best to put that money into roads that can actually benefit benefits the people that immediately. If the only time that money should go to reil is if there is a consortium, like all the states want to build in a region, I say the Southwest, all the south States, they agree, they put the funding in, and then they build the entire the

Be very small.

Yeah it makes sense. I see we're going to with that's some guys. You want to speak a preepole real quick? What's in your mind?

Hi? Just to build up what you just mentioned with the with the corridors between the states, and you.

Talked about our private private players might not be the best option to participate in another transport link. Well, I wanted to just maybe run through this scenario where where you have in some place and you're where certain routes are given to exclusively to some players to run bus transportation.

I guess they do there and it seems to be profitable.

Is are they oppor similar opportunities on bus routes so certain corridors where it will be profitable for a private player to have exclusive rights to run a bus network on that corridor, or is is there a bit more advanced than where the.

Country is are you saying, like, give a route to just one guy to run?

Yeah, so's they give some companies run one route the bus route they run. They have exclusive rights to run a bus network and one route or one corridor and they move mostly people mostly between the red desk popularior and it's profitable. Margins are are not huge, but it's profitable enough for a private player to take that route.

So I'm asking if.

If ces similar opportunities in the Nigeria, every highly dense roots, if the government does build out the corridor and maybe or with the existing infrastructure, now, are there any opportunity is there is similar opportunity on the ground.

Now is this for the for the buses, is this for event transport or inter city.

And uh, let's say both.

That's a city that any would you would you believe there will be an opportunities similar opportunity where an exclusive route or private player.

Exists or that structure would work.

I don't like any private though, but go ahead, Yeah, so.

That there there are opportunities for that.

But the.

The the points of the puntal failure in that structure is how will the.

Public body manages manages that that agreement. So if the public body has uh h yeah, they can.

They can issue one corridor for a private or a private a private transport company to run that to run that particular corridor. But if the agreement is not handled properly, then it's going to generate a lot of issues because for example, if the privates AH the private operator does not have enough funds two runs out of funds to operate the route, what should be what should happen to that route?

Should the.

Nobody is going to travel that route within because the private partner doesn't have the money to run it.

And then what happens in those situations.

So they're all.

It's it's doable, but I will not trust the current situation of the Nigerian public.

Public bodies to be able to execute that right.

It's going to the way we have we are right now is going to set us up for a big time disaster.

And again it has to just be a symbiotic relationship. I know, ABC Autos came up with a boss that had air conditioning, you could have had in flight entertainment and meals, but their were Nigerian roads. I mean, this company was listed, it's a listed as a PLC. You could buy into that transport sector. The point of making it was a quote unquote first class company one Nigerian roads. Eventually the roads ruined, the buses, the ages stopped working, and when you go to the park, it's you know

You know.

Literally, people are building the roads at night, villagers, you pay them money that you go to the roo at night. What struggle was the commerce at night? So the night the town is asleep. But the entire road network has got commas up and running. People are getting jobs, people are getting fed. You know, there's there's v eighty happening there. But there are no roads. Eventually, and you see insecurity people shooting in the air because you know, so it's

Yeah, no, right, but we'd to ask more question because just what she said with incentivizing the private investments of private capital and infrastructure and baby I can touch with this.

A risk with totally.

I don't think you public infrastructure.

I think the people are not afraid of toning body amount you're gonna toll them, which you know, if you're the South Africa, you just go throops. You don't wanna stop,

You know?

And you're doing it every day? Cars are just passing the two and every day? Why can't you do that? Why want it be one thousand?

I don't, yeah, but I love to you take on where you see the tolling at Manders current condition is it is this something that has a viable option and dolls put the deficit on?

Why it would be your problem?

Yeah?

For toll for toll toll roads, the for yes, I would say they do. They do have places where they're useful.

For the.

If you look at Cana, for example, most of their most of their major eye highways, if not all of them are all told and.

But those are I can't I don't remember, like what's what the toll is, but those are mostly those are most peak upment run highways.

And if you look at another country that also has a lot of toll roads, which is Japan, a lot of private roads, you see the private the private roads tend to culster around urban centers. They're very short, close to either Tokyo or Soaka, and or they leave the rest of the highway system linking those regions at a long distance to the public sector.

And that's because you get more.

Turnover in the urban roads than you do on those long stretch pieces of highway. So in terms of tolling, the short urban routes are more loocrative for high for a privating restor to operate than for example.

If you want to if you want to connect Legos to Anija with a toll road, the tolls will likely not cover the cost of operating the road. You're going to be in a deficit and that's not going to be.

That's not going to be a lucrative endeavor for a private investor to uh to go it to go into. But just as the private operator after Makiyah, that is where it makes.

That is where it's locrative because you have a lot of through good and the distance is very short.

But yeah, like Kylo said, the tolls have to be reasonable and.

The the roads have to be.

The roads have to be maintained properly.

And also I don't I don't remember then updating the toll collection is it there? Have they moved to electric electronic tolling yet or you still pay.

By the toll booth.

You have those little things you stick on your on your windscreen, but that it's just a free paid the way it should be certainly, you know how it's when you register with the fires the fi RSS has your number plate, attack that number plate to your BV and so that way, once you go past, you don't have to put it reached who the car is. It just sends you a bill. You don't have to collect the

I think contributes to make it even cheaper. Yeah, the friction, you.

Don't need people to collect it. You don't need people to collect the bills. You don't need to hire people. If you don't pay the thing, it catches you. You know, they can track you back to where you were. They have your BV and they have your number paid to have your address. They give you a c T bill you have to pay. But that's those way you have to look at some guys.

I's my father question.

Generally, I don't know if you if you do have this information, how the differenceive performance between PPP projects and strictly public projects in Nigeria.

Is there any trends you observe.

And how they how they perform long term and could you maybe give us a sense versus what happens on the international stage.

Whether big projects have a place or they have.

Seen better performance in certain contexts, or it just depends on just the country itself.

There for for PPP projects, just as just as the situation with U public operator.

Giving out a transport route for single transport private transl bred to operate.

The.

The performance or the success of that PPP depends heavily.

On the public partner and how the public partner executes.

In Nigeria, the PPP infrastructure projects, they have a bad track record.

They have if they either deliver poor quality.

They're not delivered on time, they're overpriced, and the only if you look at all our public transport infrastructure, most of it is government funded, is public funded.

PPP has not really delivered.

Any usable transport infrastructure in Niger And unfortunately, the there's this mindset that people is the way and there is this PPP hysteria going on in Nigeria where everything is PPP, PPP, the PPP that and when you look at the projects that have been that have gone through that PPP route, and yeah, they really haven't delivered in Nigeria. So for because like it, it depends on the public partner and

Done much for us.

Okay, And that's the trend. Similar abroad is that well, it depends on the region. So for different for different countries, depends on how the public partner executes the project.

Yes, it works well in places like.

For example, if I use the Nordic the Nordic countries.

Where they have some form of.

TPP arrangements for infrastructure projects. But the way it is executed and handled the risk, I'll think there's one thing. The risk is.

Held in the public sector.

The public sector assumes.

The risk of the project and they tend to work better than for example, the UK, which tends to ufload the risk onto the private private partner, which leads to cost explosions and all the other craziness. And the same thing with Nigeria and the Nigerian PPP projects. They tend to offload the risk on the private partner and then we have a whole.

Bunch of the issues. So in running PPP is the public partner has to be has to assume the.

Risk of the project and then it has to be executed properly.

Right now we right now.

The way A lot of the PPPs that executed in Nigeria with it push all the risks onto the private partner.

Yeah, that doesn't really give us anything.

And if he only needs to higher cost projects, low quality projects, and we don't.

Get it, doney, if you guys might, I'll just get af you guys, I've been waiting to put a word in there. I think to what the closest of the conversation. Now, let me get IDEODJ. I've got IODG. Then we'll get OX. They won't get ABO, so iodg OX, they don't get ABO either. You've got the floor, go ahead, Yeah, thank you very much.

Good evening in my time zone, good morning, good afternoon, depending on where you're listening from.

I hope you can hear me, yes, sir, I can hear.

Okay, good. I came here to learn and I've learned a lot. I also want to appreciate the host for bringing up this space. It's quite enlightening.

Okay.

I just want to drop a few points. One of which is I'll touch on the issue of toling. I will also touch on the issue of what mode of transportation should best be chosen for the economic development if I do a way to adopt touch approach to our economic development.

Like most of the speakers.

Before, I've said, I also would like to agree that rather than trying to.

Put the rail system in place, I think.

The fonts should be more focused on we are debating transportation the road projects, making the roads more durable, more usable for people, especially in the rural areas. Where As a matter of fact, the transportation system actually solved a lot of problems.

For example, the major reason why prices.

Of food items will go up is the fact that, apart from the insecurity in the country, the fact that most of the produce that are in rural areas find it's difficult to get to urban centers where they can easily be distributed nationwide, and that likely tells on the cost of items as well as distributional liability and all.

Of those things.

So if the roads system can actually be made to function effectively, I think that would also put all of that in check. And then also it definitely will generate more jobs for the Grand people. I heard somebody say that the intolerance system is it is it viable, like considering the current.

Situation of GM people.

But I believe that with good road network there.

Will be more economic activities on the side of the people. A lot of people will be able to get to their places of business, and then of course more businesses will come up because like demand. Somebody said earlier that he took a night trip and he saw that there was a lot of commerce going on at night. If you are the kind of if you are the person that frequents legos, be me or a road, you will see that that road barely slips because both day and

Would push back.

It's like an example of a busy transport, not only a busy transfer. There was the time that g u Ok and Songs was doing most of the inst runs and we used to feel comfortable then traveling at night because the security system in the country.

Wasn't as bad as this.

But even at that the roads were discouraging. So eventually it all boils down to if if we're discussing transportation system with reverse to economic development, it all comes back to the road network. Basically, the road network, in my own opinion.

Sols a lot of those problems.

I would yield the microt this one. I just thank you for everything that's has been said.

So for you, that's a good recap. I appreciate that. Good recap on that. Let's get I think it was uber. Then we get Oxley, who I know who's going to go first? Oxley, Yes, yeah ahead.

Thank you for giving the mind.

I'll just I would just ask one question and make one one comment. So my comment is about the the term system a count of places where this is we are trumps as they use. I don't think anything. I don't think club tub tumb has been.

Plants anywhere around Niger in terms of the.

Designs you know of our system, so as I don't know how some can be retrofitted into our ligery and into Nigeria roads because I don't. I don't think it's anywhere in the plan and I tend to be corrected. And also the places we have city in Europe, you know, they're easy to update.

You know, they are very you know they're easy.

Some of their rules at some points go across the roots.

Wrong on grass.

You know they are they are, they are quite very easy over the most. I don't think that mydea has come in our system, Maru, and I don't think it gos to to fill that.

Into our system.

We have to start from breaking all our roads and all of that.

So that's one side.

Secondly, I had mostly.

Said around on the chappoorts.

I just wanted to ask the question, are you in any way just saying that on acts.

Not by me, you know, because I'm.

Not sure I have you. I but that there's a pot there and it's not it doesn't get love volume. So there's something wrong, right, there's something wrong with what we have right now.

By life. I'm not sure you've got that because at.

That point your audio, your audio is not that good, sir. I don't you want to fix that audio? Confined oskally, I want to can you fix the audio? There's something of the audio?

Okay?

Is it better now?

Yes?

Sir?

Is it better now?

Yes?

Okay, So what I don't know whether you got my question?

I said, are you suggesting are you in any way suggesting that on your port was.

Not is not viable?

Yeah, I'm saying that the port is there, but there's no volume going to that port. So I'm just looking at the status today. It's not functional as expected, so there's something going on there.

I'm thinking that, you know, in the bridgehead where that port is, there's so many businesses and there are people who railed their containers on the road from Legos No No, but that's not the question asking.

That's not the question. The question is is the port functional? The port is not. It's not active. That's the point what I'm saying.

No, you are saying it's not functional because it's not viable.

No, I'm saying it's not valuable because it's not. It's functional, but it's not viable. The port is there, but it's not being used. That's what I'm saying. We know, we know it and need the port. We know the market is there, we know there's transhipment, we know all that. But I'm saying that particular federal port in land port nature right now, it doesn't get a lot of.

Volume because I'm thinking there is the night on it is not right, so certain ships will not be able to come there. And also there is no real there's no reallying that lands that terminates at that point.

I don't think there is any I.

Hear you, I hear you. You're right. I'm just saying that in the end, it's got to be a badge can get there, right, and I know some can get one of one or two badges go there. The point I make is that you would think that that port will have more volume to day than it does. That's just what I'm saying.

And the fact I think it's the federal government that kept it in that situation there. How I don't see any need to make it. They don't see any need to get it to work, you know. And and I and he had to ask so many reasons, you know. I think much of the reason is even political, you know. But my word is why is the state government not not doing anything about it?

That's my world, okay, I mean, the one thing that has politics. It's difficult to actually get to what's going on. But I just like again, I'll say this right, the private sector has got to show the way if that federal one is not working. Anambra with Delta, with the state down here, worry can do something on their own. I don't know how far they have, what part they have, but they can do something. Delta is now a pc AB.

Yeah, okay, So I would love to ask for a couple of questions earlier. Earlier when you're speaking Namy, you made.

Measure of what I was in course of like once you get your looks, there's not happening in the western direction.

There's only the western direction that we can use. That's the gain way.

I really have high holes for from the inland waterways from India. I was kind of like I was with Carlo when you when you was talking about isn't the water I wished to get to as far as.

Soccer tour in the south, So it's to be surprised, and I would like to understand why you say is it because of dams the two dams on the Niger after locals? And if there is the case, is the.

Aneral other way to like probably translad bat chase from one end.

To the other.

That's the course.

And then what would you say is the impication of this coast through highway on.

Our inland waterways?

Right?

Because it isn't a lot duding the highway from Legos across unguesslimeters of swamp plant to Colabor. Were you not connected with any major city other than labors protacles and I think colabor or maybe amotion.

Well, if they do do that, there'll be tons of bridges.

Will't those bages be courting over or inland?

What we would be seen because.

Just speaking about what the inland would.

Made mentioned badging containers from Lacky in London to an entire don't you think that's a problem?

And if there would be a problem, how do we.

Solve that problem? Then?

Lastly, I knew you were not just into transportation. We are also into energing. How do you think solving a or how.

Bids do you think we can use our solving our transportation problems in.

Nigeria to in it fit improve our energy because I.

Knew that for Nager got to industrialize. Basically, it is my opinion. I don't think I'm sitting in the part, but we need to solve the energy.

Problem, the transportation them and maybe still I think still thoughting that I am.

Pretty much aware that will help the country industrialized.

So how do you take the carrier of transportation issues save me sover transportation problem?

How do you think that can transculate to giving those great times this time around? I'm talking about this is like pipelines and whatnot.

Thank you very much.

Did you get all that you mean.

To me?

Did you did you get all that?

Yeah?

I did?

That was about last right, yes, okay, yeah, thanks yeah, thanks for those questions.

Yeah. For the first one.

Regarding of the waterways, the geography of the rivers north of local Ja, you have rapids, so.

You have.

You have steep drop offs.

So if you're going to.

So the river can't you can't navigate via a water borne vessel without using lifts or elevator.

You're going to need to build.

You're going to need to build like barge elevators to take the water take the vessels to the higher level and you have lots of dinner rapid succession. So in that scenario, the slow down on the cost, the cost of building those elevators and the slow.

Down in the movement of goods, it's not really worth the effort. You'll be better off if you build a parallel.

Railway along the along the river than to transport good you reach, you hit a rapid, then you have to elevate, you have to get an elevator, hit another rapid, get an elevator.

And so it's just the geography, it just makes it unviable.

It's to transport via water through the northern reaches of the Niger River.

In terms of the other question of the coastal way, the coastal legals Calaba Coastal Highway, and how that interferes, how the bridges will interfere with.

Inland waterway traffic. As long as the bridges are built with enough clearance, then it's not an issue.

But if they don't take clearance for vessels into consideration, that is when it becomes an issue.

So you have of.

You have I don't think we have a major No, we don't.

We don't have a major.

Transport water transport corridor with a bridge with a bridge crossing.

But in other countries, for example, Mozambique.

Just built a.

Bridge across the waterway and it's built.

It's I think it is right now, the longest suspension bridge in Africa.

And in the bridge they cost all because the bridge has to be higher. So the bridge has a sixteen meter or a sixty five.

Water clearance, so even the.

Tallest ships can go underneath the bridge. For for those for barges, barges don't require that much height. Barges and barkers can go on the bridges with eleven to fifteen meter heights. That's sufficient and for other smaller metholds.

So as as long as they have as long as they have a minimum of fifteen meter height clear water clearance, then that's not a problem.

If they did not put that into consideration, that's when it becomes an issue for using For how transportation can solve energy, I would say the I would say for transportation for example, in terms of like in terms of real transportation, I always advocate for electrification because it's it's.

More, it allows you to to operate, it gives you law operating course, it allows you to move more more traffic for lower for lower cost than operating with diesel. And also you have.

Electric trains, electric locomotives that have lower maintenance than diesel.

Diesel trains, so you just have lower operating costs and.

The cost initial cost of installation is not that much different from the cost of a from the cost of the diesel.

So but in terms of like.

In terms of energy for those they need their own infrastructure, like we need we need the pipelines to get the gas to where it's needed, we need transmission lines to get the electrons the electricity to where it's needed. And so that's we just have to invest in the pipeline infrastructure, transmission infrastructure, distribution infrastructure to SOW.

To meet our electricity demands.

And that that can go hand in hand because.

Railways are easy easier to electrify than to it will distribute electricity to a bunch of distributed customers within the city because you just have one massive customer that.

You can just electrify at.

At designated substation loads along the rail line.

So yes, they can, they can think they can be integrated, but they.

I wouldn't say the transport I would say, it's the other way around that improving our energy infrastructure will benefit our transport.

Transport infrastructure because you need.

Electricity to for most things, to power report, to power trains, for so.

Many other things. You need ELECTRISTI for that.

Let's go I have all right, I hear you. Let's just do it real quick and just get a few guys. I've been waiting to speak. I've got a Onema said, I've got a refundo, and yeah, let's do those two because they just to make sure they yes. Thank you so much for staying with us for the whole three hours with the long play podcast that we do. So I just want to appreach you so and one mast say you've got the floor after you got rapido and then we'll sort of come back to tournament and remarks.

Oh, thanks very much, tam is cool to cutch you.

Yeah, in time, might look at your sweet those things that like you know, you should actually be a Minister transport like twenty twenty five. Let me drop my questions, try, Christian, Is you talk about like how two very important principles of infrastructure the ads can really move.

They need when it comes to.

Nigeria, which is one the Legos to may Do Goree Highway and two the Legos on each protac called railway. Now for the Legos may Do Goree Highway, what's nodes is it going to pass through?

Like what major cities and towns and whatever. That's a question there.

Then secondly, how those how will like a railway from Legos to an Incha to portacles affect the f Fright's business because even from your analysis, like that's one of the most profitable routes for flights.

So it's not like you know what what do you think around like paol and situation.

Secondly, the.

Procurement challenge is when it.

Comes to projects we've been having.

I think Cocola has talked about it before. How there are lots of projects that cone into forever projects. You know, it's been long you actually really hear of brand new projects, you know that are really moving a needle.

It's always like a project all and all and all the projects all over and over again.

So what do you think about that, Like you know the effect of how you know, I know it's political space, but like it needs to be said how the procurement challenges interfered with our state of development when it comes to you know, it's infrastructure.

And my last question.

You've talked about like the viability of routes, population, closters, business activity.

And all that.

But have we also you know, I'm from Delta, so like the war report and all those kind of things.

So but have we also have we come we also look at it.

From the angle of.

Investing in productivity to make infrastructure variable, you understand, So like instead of like coming for imports, first of all, you've set of like focus on building industrial activity around that area that incentivis the need. So like around these our eight states, what crossed us? Do you feel that like, you know, that makes a whole lot of sense to be looking forward to, just like the own airports, Like you know, it's linked.

To oil and gas logistics for example, coy war imports, you know, increase the viability.

Of whatever expansion or whatever by concentrating some kind of industrial activity so that it stimulates.

Some of demand and all that ability.

Thank you, Okay, thanks, thanks, thanks.

A lot of those question questions that will uh let's see for the first one regarding the legos Medigury Highway.

The nodes that it.

Goes through.

That I think it should that it should go through.

So you have.

The currently the legos.

It will intersect with the legos ibat On Highway and then it will start start around Abio Kota, intersect Legos about On Highway bypass Ibaton, go through, go through in between ak and Adulikitty.

And then go through I think it goes goes through.

The cement.

Bajana, the cement plant in Kogi and then.

Goes through abaji Ina and then interspect with the Abujakfi Highway and goes through Jaws and then it will from Jaws and then to Bauchi. From Bauchi, it will just use the remaining stretch of the of the A two highway that's from Bauchi to may De great So we just expand the capacity or the grade of that highway and for the entire corridor. The entire corridor just has to be six lanes six six lane corridor. The section from our courier to two Lagos can be expanded to eight.

Lanes for the rest

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