A Conversation with Adam Kinzinger

and it's awesome. You know, It's expensive to fly, so I don't get to fly it as much as I did, like when I had a small Mooney, but it's awesome because if I need to get somewhere, I can get there quickly and take the entire family. And then over here this by the way, this picture is me and Jamie Herrera Butler. We're high fiving each other on our

way to actually vote to impeach Trump. And there was an AP reporter or one of those reporters that take pictures all the time, that took a picture of us, and we didn't know they were there. So that was like an organic HI five. And so that's a great picture. And then over here is me and it's Congressman Steve Graves. He or not Steve Grave, Sam Graves. He always does

an air show. He basically lives on an airport, and he's probably the only guy that loves flying more than me and in Congress, and so I'd go to his air show every year, and we went up and flew and that's his T six. So that was like a train and World War two. If you start flying like World War two vintage aircraft, you basically have to get a bunch of hours in that and become an expert in in formation and everything to then go on to maybe fly like the P fifty one or anything else.

So I haven't gotten into that yet. I hope someday to do that. It's through the Commemorative Air Force. But I got to get more time, and I gotta get more tailwheel experience, even though I've got like, I don't know, six thousand hours flying or something like that. But yeah, the military version is just that plane, just a little bit longer and bigger wings, and it's got a bunch of cool equipment on it that spies on people, but not Americans, just bad guys.

country that's not like Russia or China. And I just remember looking down and being like, I want to do something like more in the dirt. So I flew that with you know, for a couple of years. It's great, great aircraft, great mission. But I wanted a different mission. So in O seven I actually became dual qualified, which

is very rare in the Air Force. So I got the dual qualified in the RC twenty six, which is what I finished out my career in, and then also the Casey one thirty five, so I actually flew both for a year and then I went full time on the on the RC twenty six. With that, I went to Iraq, Afghanistan. Hey, normal Illinois, I went to Iraq, Afghanistan, all over the world. I mean in both those planes it was great, and the RC twenty six as well. We would do domestic missions, so I said, we don't

spy on you. We didn't unless you were a bad guy running from the police or dealing drugs. We would have an agent on board to make it. Since we were National Guard, it complies with posse comittatis and we would actually help local law enforcement track down drug dealers. We worked the border a bunch, which is actually why I'm pretty aggressive on the border. Because I saw it firsthand. It's a mess, and so it's been great and I miss it. I'm sad that I had to retire, you know,

I got twenty two years in or whatever. But yeah, it was it goes by in a flash, as everybody knows, twenty years goes by pretty quick.

the announcement, says that they didn't meet the standard. Comes out that forty eight hours prior, he was arrested, charged with a DWI offense and driving without insurance outside the gates. Fifty three years old. This is one of the Navy's most highly trained officers commander of a ballistic missile submarine. He makes a character mistake and there is no second

chance at that level. He pays the full price. What is it that has gone off the rails in American politics, in your estimation where the character defects are celebrated while punishment is imposed. It seems to me, more often than not bottom up. And I'm not trying to victimize or to allow a Navy captain who did that, who commanded a ship like that, to claim victimization. But what has

gone wrong and off the rails in the society. You know, one thing we share is we're both gen xers, and I just find it constantly and perpetually bewildering.

and we accepted it. I mean, you know, I can tell stories where people kind of got the shaft a few times that they shouldn't have. But you know, we accepted that. You know, when you when you take an oath, particularly to protect America, and you know, not just fly a weapon, but employee weapons against human beings, that you have to put yourself at a different standard. I mean,

look at it. Even just airline pilots, right they they're allowed to drink alcohol, but they have to stop at a certain point, and if they show up to the gate with I think it's above point five or something like that in their system, they're going to lose their job for United American or whatever else. There's there's a standard we put on everybody, and I think the founding

fathers intended a standard on politicians. I think they assumed, and they assumed rightly for two hundred and fifty years that politicians, you know, what would shift out, what would sift out the bad ones, the ones without character, is the election system, right, I mean, if somebody has no character and it's found out, typically they lose an election. Typically they're they're shamed. Whatever. That was the system. So well, if you're an elected official, you don't really have a boss.

The boss is the people and the people are the ones that can execute that punishment. What's happened, Steve, And I know you know this well. By the way, I've got to say to you, just because I'm thinking of it, and I don't forget you're the You're the purveyor of Country First, the idea of it, and the message I know with McCain and my organization is called a Country First. So you own that and I want to thank you for bringing that the word and message forward from the inception.

So I want to give you credit for that supportant but on the on the on the the character side with leader. So what Donald Trump has done well, Okay, what he's done well is he's convinced people that he is a big billy badass, right that he is. He's standing in this gap for you. When he says crazy things on Twitter, it's not because he's crazy, it's because he's outraged for you. And that's what people think. That's what people have been convinced. They've been convinced that he

is tough. The truth of the matter is he's the whiniest, littlest self absorbist, self absorbed ist, whatever that word is. He's the most biggest, like sissy whiner. It's exhausting and it's annoying. But he has convinced people through his anger and his whatever, that he's this tough guy. So they will take his character flaws and say he's got that flawed character. Yes, but what we love about him is he's not gonna let the left bully him into shame. I mean, his what is it? We always says great

superpower as shamelessness, and so that's what's happened. That's what I've been saying lately, particularly, and I put this on

substack I think today, which is look, Joe Biden. One of the things I think he can do to take out Donald Trump is instead of saying I'm scared to death of him, you know, or I'm worried about democracy, which I think we have to say, I'm not saying, don't say that because that matters to a certain segment of people, I think we have to start belittling him for the narcissistic again, just weak man he really is, because that is his superpower in the base, and I

think we have to begin to expose that. So I think the lack of character thing just came from, you know, people like him, People like Santos just having no shame and saying that they have no shame in essence on behalf of people. I mean, what do you what do you think on it? Because that's that's what I've been like kind of playing around with. Is this idea that when you play him up to be this threat, that's actually working in his favor in a certain segment.

been subjugated at that point since nineteen thirty nine. What he says to them is being not afraid in the tradition of fearlessness. Franklin Roosevelt talked about this freedom from fear, freedom from want, the contagion of fear, its capacity to spread panic. So when the country he is vice president go on the view and deliver a message that says, I'm scared as heck. It's worrying because the moment calls

for defiance against the real threat. And so there are two things in my view that you just hit Bingo on. And the first one is how you fight Trump, which is through mockery and sarcasm and belittlement and everything that you can think of that diminishes him. But I want to put that aside for a minute and we'll come back to the We'll come back to the politics. But when you look at the country, and I think you rightly diagnose right this character change. I mean, he has

more than any male that exists in the culture. He's the antithesist of the iconic mail of the black and white movies we grew up with, John Wayne, Charles Bronson, Clint Eastwood right, silent, tough, Jimmy Stewart right. I mean, he is an appalling figure, needy, whiny, complaining, soft, evasive, dishonest, right, every conceivable character flaw. But what does it say about

the country that they're susceptible to it? Two? What does it say about the Democratic Party that if the election were tomorrow, even money is Joe Biden loses the election in him.

I mean, I'm not it's a whole messy debate. But what happens is if you're a white male living in the Midwest and you get hit with these constant messages of toxic masculinity. I mean, what was it a one of the shaving companies Gillette put out like some one minute ad about you know, is this the best we are? You know, that kind of stuff. Some of that makes sense because there is there's such thing as toxic masculinity. Let's be clear. You see this particularly in the MAGA movement,

but there's also healthy masculinity. And I think what's happened is over time that's been kind of pushed aside. Men particularly have been pushed aside in people in men's mind. It's true or not, I don't know, but they've been pushed aside. And then somebody came along and spoke to that fear and reflected that fear back to them. So this is the thing about fear. Like politicians harness fear,

and sometimes it's in good ways. You know, fear of communism, fear of unemployment, fear of you know, uh, racial and social inequity. Those are those are true fears, and I think a politician has to harness that. And politicians in the past, by and large also knew that there that power that they were harnessing came with great As Spider Man said, great power comes great responsibility, and so I

guess it was his uncle that said that. But anyway, you know, they understood that they had a responsibility to use fear but then bring back optimism. When Donald Trump came along in his toxic MAGA base, and they simply reflect the fear that you already have in your heart back to you, or the anger you have and say you should be angry. Like that's how you pull people in. That's how cults work. That's how dictatorships get built. They create that fear. If you think about fear, everybody has fear.

There's nobody on here that doesn't have fear. We all have fear, okay, And what we do is we try to confront that we also have darkness in our heart, every one of us. And every day we have a battle in our heart between the light and the dark.

And when a leader comes along like Trump, okay, president of High States, for God's sakes for four years, when he comes along and he speaks back to you the darkness in your heart, and he says, you know, your fear of immigrants, it's real, your fear of minorities, it's real, your fear of being excluded, it's real. When somebody with power speaks the dark parts of your heart, it gives you permission to let that overtake you. And as we all know, letting the darkness overtake you is much easier

than fighting. It kills you, but it's much easier in the moment. So I is that am I getting deep in the weeds? Yes? Does it make sense to some of you? Maybe not? And I'm sorry about that, but that's the best way I can describe is there's this there's been this like harvesting of people's fears going on and people's darkness going on, and there's been nothing to

then root that fear into positive action. You know, we always said this was said early on by Arthur Brooks, who I know, you know well and I do too, great guy, he would always say, until it was disproven by Trump. He's like leaders, leaders do well by fighting, but fighting up and punching on behalf of people. Donald Trump came along and he punches down and he punches against people. He doesn't fight for Americans. He fights Americans,

and some people like that, unfortunately, and that's grown. And there the other big problem, Steve, is that nobody in the Republican Party with rare exception, stands up to him. So when he gets invited and everybody says, oh, yeah, he's a victim, of course, then everybody that trusts these people are going to say he's a victim. And Nikki

Haley is saying he's a victim. He's a victim, right, And because somebody like me, Liz Cheney or you goes out on a limb and says the truth, you can get ostracized because that's what cults do, and it's a cult.

all have a moment in time. And you know, I think that when you talked about the confrontation of darkness and light, the way that I've talked about it in my political career is that you're at the highest levels of politics. You find yourself in this constant contest between kind of cynicism and idealism. Right, the these two forces will meet, right, You'll grapple with them. And what you may rationalize is idealistic in a in a moment or

or not not not so transactionally bad? Right you can you can look back on with some perspective you know, later on and say and say wow, because all of this, as you're involved in it is very is very, very cloistering. But take us inside the room where you're with your colleagues after January sixth, and it's clear and you're a person who is in good standing in the sense that you stayed with the party. You were critical of him transactionally, but you say this was a coup attempt.

think it's important when I say it. When I say that, look, at the time, I'll be honest, I didn't think there was any chance that we wouldn't wake up from that moment any I mean, like I you know, I started country first right after that, my my country first, not yours, but same thing, because I was like, okay, we have to fight to restore the GOP and and I thought, I mean, if I had to put my money on it, it would be this will be a winning argument because

we just had an insurrection. Right there's dead cops. And but in hindsight, I look at it and I'm like, you know what I saw in those eyes when I would say to people, I'd stand up at the conference, which is when we're all together, and I'd say, this is BS, this was a coup attempt, this was x y Z. We've got to move on this. We have to impeach him, we have to do the twenty fifth Amendment. I wouldn't see disagreement in people's eyes. In fact, you'd kind of see agreement. But I saw fear, and it

was fear and silence. The silence was okay, Adam, I may agree with you, but I want to see where this is going because we've been down this path before where we took on Trump and lost. And my job that pays one hundred and seventy four thousand dollars a year, and I still have to pay for my place to live in DC. For some reason, is worth it to

these people. You know, you're on the road half your life, don't get to see your family, But for some reason, that title, that identity is so worth it to people. So I saw fear, but I still thought we had a chance until three weeks later when Kevin McCarthy went to mar A Lago and that man, I'll tell you what on a dime, that shifted everybody. They knew it. It's like, yep, you're right, he's gonna win. And he won because it was predetermined. They predetermined that he was

gonna win. So he won. So that's why he's in charge of the party. So on the twenty On the twenty twenty vote, it's the one thing. Well, there's a couple of things, particularly in the book I talk about that that you know, I wish I could go back and take back. Of course my vote in twenty twenty is one of them, but I think it's important to talk about why So I didn't vote for him in twenty sixteen. I'm the only guy in America that didn't

vote for him in sixteen and did in twenty. But that sixteen not voting for him vote, I think is why I did in twenty because the pressure that came on me for four years from my party for not voting for him and being public about it was tough to bear. I mean, every time I would be in a Republican circle in my constituents, it's like they'd remind me you didn't vote for him, You're not faithful, you're

not loyal. And I convinced myself that since I lived in Illinois and Biden was gonna win Illinois anyway, I didn't want to lie about who I voted for. So I'm like, I'll just vote for him. He's gonna lose Illinois, and I can put away this like thing about I'm not supportive enough. But that night is when everything changed. When he I think his first thing was a tweet that said, like stop counting the votes or it's being stolen or whatever it was. And that's when I'm like,

I'm off And why did I say that? Because I have been and you know, you know foreign policy as well as I do. I've been to many places of struggling democracies, and I know that once you break the faith in the system. Okay, nobody has to agree on anything. You don't have to agree on You don't have to agree on I mean anything. Literally, that's what actually politics is because of we don't agree on stuff. But you do have to agree to play by the rules in

the election. The rules are, you can vote if you're eligible. Personally gets the most vote wins, and they get have a certain amount of power for a certain amount of time. That's the rules. That's it. Donald Trump convinced half of the country, almost half of the country, that that system

was broken. And when he did that, I don't see democracy surviving if a considerable number of Americans truly believe the system doesn't work, because all of a sudden, now you're voiceless in your mind in the government, and voiceless governments get have revolutions, they have civil wars. And I knew that this was the moment where I would have to look at myself in the mirror. I had a

kid coming. I knew soon and I you know, look, I mean, we asked nineteen twenty year olds to die for their country, right, and we have to have that. It's a sad reality in a fallen world, but we have to have that. How effing dare I but my political career above the country. If I'm asking a young person to die for their country, and the people that do that daily should be ashamed of themselves. And they are,

in my mind, disqualified from serving in office. And they will someday, I hope, on their deathbed, and I hope before that realized what traitorous garbage they are to this country when we ask eighteen year olds to die, and they'll go to these funerals and salute the flag, get their picture taken. The congressman came to the funeral. Great and then we need you to vote this way because Donald Trump is a clear and president danger of democracy. I can't do that. I'll lose my primary. Screw you, now.

medal for this. You criticized the Democrat National Committee for attacking Governor Asa Hutchinson, who meets the standards that we think about when we reflect on John Kennedy and profiles encourage knew he was not going to be the Republican but a two term governor Deputy Homeland Secretary headed a dea serious person, accomplished person, trudged it out for the sake of telling the truth and putting it and putting

it into the record. And he's mocked, disparaged by what should be the hub of a political opposition, right that nobody dispute should be anchored by the Democratic Party. We live in a two party system. One of them is gone but needs more people than its base in order to defeat Trump. And so when you look at the situation electorally, as someone who's politically homeless, do you feel disdain from the from the from the left, A we don't want you as part of the coalition. Does that

worry you? Does it worry you in terms of, you know, how they talk about you know, other parts of the country, people in it, you know. And one of the things I was saying to someone, you know the other day about some of the issues you know, around the Democratic Party, and it's and it's in capacities to reach you know, certain elements of the of the electorate.

me is unbelievable. But the Republican Party has Russian sympathizers right now. I mean, for God's sakes, And there's almost Hamas sympathy.

it was a staff hit job. And it's leadership that the chief of staff to Joe Biden called as to apologize Trump would never do that. That's leadership. My concern is that there's this tempt to say, Okay, the Republicans and Donald Trump do this, we have to match that with this over here in the Democratic version of it. Look, and I understand it, because that's the temptation they're getting away with this. Screw them, We're going to do this. Now, let me give you fair warning. It's not how you

win a winning coalition. But it also we need to have one party that's mature. We need to have one party that still can fight tooth and nail, but can stay above the fray on some of this garbage. Now that doesn't mean you don't attack Trump like he attacks you. You do, but like a guy who got a half a percent in the primary, you're gonna celebrate him exiting by making fun of him. That's dumb. And again, to

Biden's credit, they reached out. So in terms of how do I feel in the party, Look, I just did a book tour and I'll tell you my biggest fans are on the left, and I appreciate it. And I've realized I'm probably closer now to the Democrats on foreign policy because my party's so far gone. I've rethought a number of issues because you can kind of come out

of that tribe. But it is going to be important to understand that this year is going to have to be uneasy and a gross feeling coalition of people that don't agree on policy. I'm talking big stuff like abortion or whatever. You know, how many people have you heard Steve that say, yeah, you know, if you're pro life, you're as big of a threat to this country as Donald Trump. Okay, I've heard people say that that's not true. Significant part of the country is pro life. I get it.

We're all passionate about abortion issues. It's not an issue that really tunes me up, but whatever. But Donald Trump is an existential threat, and that's why we have to have this coalition. So fight Trump tooth and nail, but welcome people like politically homeless, disaffected Republicans because that's how

you're gonna win Otherwise. I'm going to tell you the concern at the you know, behind in the room at CNN about people that think Joe Biden's you know, in trouble is he's just not showing the fight, the vigor. And you know, a lot of these Republicans are still saying, like Governor Sanunu just said, for God's sakes, like I'm gonna vote for Trump if he's a nominee. O great,

that's cool. Gritzger my governor said the other day, you know, there's no difference between Trump, Nicky Haley, and Ron DeSantis. It's just if you want, you know, lifts in your boots or you want high heels. Ha ha, funny. He's running for president in twenty eight he's playing to the base. But I'm gonna tell you, a Nicky Haley Republican is not a threat to the country. A Trump Republican is. And we need to get that straight.

This is the most sophisticated society that has ever existed in all of all of recorded history. I'm not sure it's killable, but I but I also don't have a lack of imagination about the danger. But my question is if he invokes the Insurrection Act, does the military regard that as a lawful order to send armor out of gates at basis into American cities? And what happens? Because I'll be there when there's five thousand Americans in front of the gates where the tanks roll out.

unique power the president has. I don't think the military would disobey that order because you know, there's a lot of talk about, you know, the military swears and allegiance to the Constitution, not to the president, which is true, and for two hundred some years that's actually been a huge point of and I think it's a good thing, don't get me wrong. But the problem is commitment to the Constitution is up for debate, Like what is that?

So imagine Trump gives an order and imagine you have a commander that disobeys that order, and then what does Trump do. He can relieve the commander and find somebody that believes that they are following the constitution. And then every you know, private or specialist will have to make a decision. Do they want to go a wall and they won't. Now would they fire on American citizens? I don't think so, you know. I mean the Chinese military struggled to fire at Teneman Square, So I don't think

you'll see that. But in terms of deployment, show a force things like that. You know what happens if what's this completely false scenario. But hopefully Let's say Donald Trump loses the election and somehow then declares himself the winner. Let's say he'd have done this in twenty twenty, because he would have had the power of the presidency. The Supreme Court could shoot him down and say, no, you're

not the president. He refuses to leave the White House, say Donald Trump could go on the air and say to every member of serving in the military, you know you need to disobey your commanders if they're stopping you. You made a commitment to the constitution. The Constitution declares

that I'm legally elected, you are on my side. Or conversely, if Donald Trump is running and loses and claims it was a false election, I could see him getting on TV and telling the military the elections being stolen from me. You need to disobey orders, you need to defect, you need to come over to our side. Is it crazy? Kind of is it realistic? It is, sadly, and that's

a concern I have. The military is only as good as the people in it, and people are being convinced that the Constitution is something that it's not or it's not something that it is, and so yeah, take it seriously, and you know, I worry about that.

and I'm a National guardsman. The entire Guard is funded by the federal government. So it's a militia, yes, but it's a militia that was never built to disobey the federal government. It was it was built to be under control, and I think rightly. But I could also see the president, for instance, federalizing blue or red states, depending on what

that president is about. I mean, you saw this in the border when you know Gnome, Christy Nome, who's a huge disappointment, you know, sent her guard to the border because she's a red state and literally only red states were going to the border, and to their discredit, blue states, we're choosing not to go to the border, which is also annoying. But yeah, you can start seeing the Guard playing in the politics role. I just saw some tag or some leader of the National Guard in Alabama resigned

because of the vaccine stuff. It's like, I really think he probably got a job at United Airlines and wanted to go out this way because he'll still get his pension. But that's the kind of crap we're going to start seeing.

you know, hit. But I think with famly in friends, it's like, look, there is real benefit in just showing love to people and trying to do it outside of the politics thing. They're misled. They have to come to that realization on their own. If you look up stuff about how to deprogram cult members, I think it's actually very applicable here, and so that would be my advice is just try to love them, try to stay away from the politics. Stay out of it. By the way,

stay out of a toxic relationship. There's a lot of toxicity in this. You don't need that, so you don't have to make up with somebody like that. I had half my family on my dad's side disown me, and I have no desire to make up with them. I've forgiven them for myself, but I have no desire to make up with them. So I think that's it. Otherwise, if you do get into an argument, try to be respectful, listen to them, because when people feel heard, they'll listen to you. That would be my suggestion.

politics a tribal identity. It's an identity. It used to be. Our identity used to be I'm an American. You know, we're fighting the Russians, or we're fighting al Qaeda or whatever. But we don't have that right now. And our identity is I'm a Republican, or I'm a Democrat, or for half of the country right now, including myself, I'm politically homeless, I'm independent. And so Republicans have to feel free to

break from that identity. You know. It's I think part of it is understanding that democrats or independence are not evil, right, That's one thing I learned even on my trip. I never thought Democrats were evil. I want to be clear about that. But like when I was doing my book tour, Democrats were so nice to me, and I realized they love the Constitution. I realized they do want a strong American military, which I was always convinced that Democrats just

wanted to surrender everywhere, everywhere in the world. And that's a big driving force for me as American stream. So I think this is a good advice to fellow Democrats on here is if you have a Republican that fits that category, welcome them, you know, let them know they'll welcome into a different identity or try to get people healthy and not you know, find their identity in politics.

For God's sakes, making a friend based on what they believe politically is actually the stupidest way to make a friend. I like drinking beer with people. I don't give a rats backside of what your politics is unless you're a hardcore Trumper, and then I really don't want to be around you. But that's this person.

For sure, it will break up the two party system because no one who claims to be an authority in the Democratic Party, there will be no authority. No one will have any moral authority whatsoever, because they will have all defended really the acclamation of an eighty two year old candidate who goes on to lose the Trump despite all the warnings. And what it will do is it will create a third party movement. I mean, there will be a third party candidate on the ballot in twenty

twenty eight, like full on from the beginning. I'll be part of that effort if it if it came to that, you know. But the Republican Party right right now is the home to a malevolence that has always existed in American life. It has transited back and forth between the parties. Manifested itself in something called the Confederacy, in something called the Booned, and something called the ku Klux Klan, and something called white nationalism. And I think that force will

never be extinguished. Our great grandchildren will be dealing with it. The big mistake of my career politically was a belief, I think, born in the era that I came of agent born in nineteen seventy thirty years old at the millennia, and it was this notion that history was over, the contest had ended, liberal democracies had prevailed, and we were at the edge. We were at the edge of the just society, really unlimited progress, a technological utopianism, an optimism

around technology, and it's all turned to dust. And so I think that there is a constant battle that is always being fought, always has been fought, and always will be fought. And we're in a cycle right now where we're very very close to losing something fundamental and important because of apathy and for a lot of different reasons. And so I'm not sure either of these parties survive. Maybe both survive, Maybe we're at the moment of breakage.

I just but but my instinct tells me that it that it is all dependent on the outcome of this election.

interested in this and sharing our concerns. Because I'll tell you, and I'm sure Steve's felt this before, and I'm sure many of you have. Sometimes you feel isolated and alone, and sometimes you wonder am I getting it wrong? Because so many people are crazy, And just seeing many of your faces has been encouraging because I'm sure you share a lot of the same feelings. I just want to thank you for that. But without repeating what you said,

I'll just add a couple of points. Number One, inherent structure, so that the structure that's built into the election system that advantages Republicans and Democrats in the two party system is massive. To get on the ballot as a Republican in Illinois, I needed eight hundred petition signatures if I would have won, and I'd consider this. At one point, I didn't really want to stay in Congress. I did

twelve years. I was done anyway, even without January sixth, But I was dealing with do I want to run again just to prove it? And you know, you deal with those issues, and one of the things I looked at is do I want to run as an independent? Maybe I'll just I'll quit the Republican Party and run as an independent. Eight hundred petition signatures to get on the ballot as a Republican, something like ten thousand to

get on as an independent. And by the way, everybody that signed as the ten thousand, which is impossible, by the way, but they could have none of them could have ever voted in a Republican or Democratic primary. So now you have to get lower propensity voters that have never voted in a primary. You need ten thousand of them. You actually need twenty thousand because they're going to challenge

your petition signatures. The point is the structure is so inherently unfair that I think the idea of a third party movement is possible because there's going to be enough people that feel politically unrepresented in twenty twenty eight that they will come together and break that kind of monopoly

that's going on. But that said, the only point, the point of optimism I'm going to throw out there that there's a possibility is that twenty twenty eight could be and I doubt I do think it depends on twenty twenty four. To an extent, twenty twenty eight could be actually the beginning of a new American century because there's

going to be a lot of new energy. And if there is energy in the GOP that is not Nazi, and they can somehow win, and they can you know, like political movements come in waves and you don't know they happen until they're over. Like it's like why we were all shocked the day after the election in twenty sixteen. I think there's a real hunger in America for optimism, let's say Ronald Reagan or in Obama in terms of how they speak, and if somebody can come along and

grasp that, that may change the trajectory. But otherwise I agree with Steve it's going to be dangerous. I believe that this. I now understand the what role the brown Shirts played in the Nazi Party, for instance, which I never understood until about eight years ago. I understand how that worked now because it's happening in our system in the GOP.

What does that do? Only thing that does is deny two hundred and seventy votes to anybody in the electoral College, which then sends it to the House to vote on who the president is. I don't see any way any candidate gets two hundred and seventy vote electoral votes with no labels right now, I actually think third party movements

need to start in Congress. They actually need to start on the elections that nobody pays attention to, which is part of the reason that haven't ever really gotten taken off, because you need to have members in Congress that can cut deals then or actually effect an electoral college outcome

if you have a third party running. But again, I'm sympathetic to the fact that everybody should have somebody they want to vote for, and it feels like this year is not going to be that, So I'm I would I think it's going to hurt Biden more than it hurts Trump. But I also have heard a good case that it hurts Trump too, because you know, all these Republicans that are kind of defaulting back to Trump because

they have nowhere else to go. Maybe this will pull them, But I just don't know if that breaks that identity.

that I had to recover from that. I needed to work through that, and I think I'm in a good spot now. But I you know, I live in Texas now, and you know my brain Republican is not very good here, not very strong. But I would be open to running again now. I mean that that energy's coming back, but it's not an It's weird because it's it's for the first time. It's not really an energy because I want

to be somebody. You know, when I ran for Congress, like I did it for the right reason, but I I might you know, ego is a huge part of that I wanted to be a congressman. This is like,

it's more. The thing that excites me is this idea of like being on if I ran for president in twenty eight, for instance, like being on the stage and just being free to say whatever I want and not have to be nicky Hayley, trying to be all things to all people, and just representing a section of people that just feel like there's nobody speaking for them, and a generation of people that feel like there is nobody that's coming up with new ideas. We talk about income inequality.

We've raised taxes, and we've cut taxes, we still have income and equality. Something else will work. I don't know what it is, but somebody has the answer. We need all of that new energy to come forward, and I think if we can get if if it takes me to help harness that energy, I could see myself running again in that case. But I don't have a grand plan.

I'm not sitting around plotting and planning. But I am really excited about like this idea, I just without being able to explain due to the very like I just feel like we need to break the entire political system and remake it. I feel like we need to break, not remake it into something we need a democracy in a republic, but break how we think about things like abortion, which I'm going to bring up. It's not pro life

against pro choice. There's actually one hundred different viewpoints on abortion. It's actually one hundred different viewpoints on guns. We've been programmed by the man, by the matrix to believe everything has two sides. It doesn't like everything has one hundred sides. How do we harness that and not just have to belong to a party that we have to fit into this box and anymore, we just be independent and we do what we want to do, and we let politics work how it should. That's my answer.

chapters of public service ahead. What I would say to everybody tonight about this moment and to remember, is that we live in a very resilient country that has been tested many, many times and has survived many hours of doubt and faithlessness and dark knights, and the dawn has always broken in the United States, And that courage and honor and valor and all of the worthy virtues, though unreported, are still very much present in our country and therefore

adjacent to our politics. So it's going to be a wild ten months. I encourage everybody to go read Adam's autobiography, Renegade, to follow Adam Kinzigger on substack, and you can catch him on CNN where he is one of the ablest political commentators out there on the circuit today. But until next time, every buddy, thank you very much, Thank you guys, Thank you