Adapting to Change: Surviving the Rapid AI Transformation in the Workplace

Maintain your integrity. I mean, have fun. Get out there and find what your personal AI training plan is in 2026. Try different tools, get out there, push boundaries. But along the way, maintain your professionalism, maintain your integrity, and just show up better for yourself and for your business or whoever you support. Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are, wherever you're watching from, Matt Pierce here from the Visual Lounge, we've got our friend Josh

Cavaliere. We're talking and diving into his new book, which if you don't have Applying AI in Learning Development, you should go check it out. It is fantastic. In fact, there's so much here I have not read it all. Sorry about that, Josh, but Josh has been a longtime friend of the show and we just want to jump into you because we've got so much to talk about here. So welcome to the Visual Lounge, Josh Cavaliere. Hey, Josh, I'm so glad that you're here.

First of all, congratulations on the book. What a huge accomplishment to do that. Why don't you give us some, a quick high level overview? What, what are we looking at here? Yeah, so when I first got into doing workshops and consulting around AI and L&D in 2023, I began noticing patterns that were happening in the marketplace, like the maturation of a prompt into a prompt library. So notice all these

tactics. But then it became evident that there was going to be significant impact with our profession and then also the tools and platforms that we use. And it's a lot, it's a lot to process when you have all these new capabilities that are impacting development tools and video tools and all these things that we've been using for decades. But then you also have all these, you know, how does this capability work? How does AI work? And so as I began interfacing with other professionals and doing

these workshops, I realized where all the gaps were at. And so the book really is an output of recognizing that one, the profession is changing, our platforms and tools are changing, and the way that we work with AI is really instrumental in moving everything forward. And that, that essentially is the book. So what? One of the questions I have is,

you know, I, like I said, I haven't had a chance to read it all. It's been a busy couple weeks since, since it arrived. But thank you for the, the copy for sure. One of the things I wonder about in terms of, you know, people diving into AI, if I was new and I'm struggling with maybe the approach to AI, or I'm just trying to wrap my head around it, Inside of my organization.

High level. What, what's something that, like kind of big takeaway that I could, I could get here that's going to maybe change the, my. Either my relationship with AI or change the way my organization is looking at applying AI in, in the jobs that we do. Well, I would say go read the whole book, but if you had to, if you had to like really focus in on just a few chapters and what those topics are. One is the front matter, like the first couple chapters. One is how did we get here?

Chapter one, Chapter two is the transformation of a learning development professional to a human machine performance analyst. What does that mean? What, what skills do you need? And then it's getting into the ethics and governance and security as we move forward. But then the rest of the, I guess the chapters four through seven get into the platforms and tools and how does that show up? And then there's tactics in the back in regards to prompts and

the maturation all the way to an agent and chatbots. So to peg it, I mean, if I had to like, okay, if somebody is like really just getting into it new and they can only read or get through a few chapters is one and two, like, how did we get here? What's the transformation? And then I would jump right to eight, which is how to prompt, like, how, how can I start being like, I know where I sit, I know where I need to go now, I need to be productive tomorrow. Right.

And that's going to go ahead and give you the base understanding of, you know, your trajectory, where you're headed. But then you can show up so much better tomorrow if you have access to some type of model. And then how do you start working with it? Yeah, well, I appreciate that kind of overview. Right. Because I do think there's, there's a lot in AI. I think a lot of people are just feeling their way through the systems there.

Maybe they've experimented with it, they've tried one. Maybe their company's brought in Copilot or Gemini or something, depending on their back end system. One of the challenges I think our industry is facing and everyone who's listening just faced with the reality of AI is that it's changing incredibly fast. I know. I've seen stuff that you've posted and Sam Rogers have been posting about. I'm not even sure if I'm going to say this right. Nana Banana Pants. I don't remember. I don't even know

the name of it. Nano Banana. Yes. Yep. Nano Banana. It seems like everything is just moving at speed where, I mean, look, technology has always changed. It's always changed rather rapidly. But this seems like at a magnitude faster, you know, scale a couple times faster than we, I think we've seen before. So particularly as you're, you know, you're thinking about, like, this information, I'm guessing this is pretty evergreen content in terms of solid concepts.

But what do you say to us trying, to those of us who are just trying to keep up with our day jobs and follow along and maybe be a little bit productive with AI? I get that question all the time, like, how do I keep up with what's going on? And you have to find your sources of truth. Like, you have to sort through all of the noise that's out there and get signal as to, as to what's happening in the marketplace and be able to understand that whatever happens in the marketplace, how is it going

to impact you as a professional? How does, what does that look like? How does it show up? And so for myself, I have my YouTubers that I'll watch either in the morning or while I'm working out or whatever. I have a couple newsletters. I have people that I subscribe to their substack because they're extremely intelligent and they write all kinds of great content. So you have to find your signals out there again. When the sands shift, as they did last week with Gemini, you know, Gemini 3 nano

banana pro, the. The definition of work outputs changes. Like, how do we get to this work output? You start having new conversations around, how do we get to a slide deck, how do we get to this job aid? And when, when the, when the sands shift, how are you going to react to that? Like, can we get this technology in house so that we can reconstitute or rethink our workflows to support the business at a different level? Right. And that takes effort. Like, you

have to be incredibly intentional. And I think one of the skills that everyone needs to acquire, if you don't already have it, is adaptability is being flexible. And some people don't operate like that. And I get it. You know, you get you enjoy what you do. You love going in deep and doing the work, but the world is changing around you at an exponential rate, and you

have to respond accordingly. And I know that makes individuals very uncomfortable, especially when they've been doing their job or their role for a decade or two decades. So this adaptability and the notion or the thought of work is changing. If you lean into it, it's going to be a much easier ride. Than if you push away and say, no, I don't think this AI thing is for me.

So I want to talk about that for a minute because I do think, let's assume someone listening is feeling like, well, I feel fairly adaptable. Like it's not maybe my strongest. But I'm not, Not completely. Ludi Clankers. Sorry. Robots. Sorry. I. You know, and they're making the changes. But there's. I know I've experienced it. Sometimes there's a mismatch between my willingness to do something, my organization's willingness to do something. Sometimes they're ahead,

sometimes I'm ahead. So what advice would you give someone to. To help them, particularly with this case? I mean, there's lots of times we've had to be adaptable, but with AI again, we've got a couple of things I think are happening. We've got the speed, we've got. We haven't settled on necessarily. There's lots of platforms. Right. We could talk about Gemini. We can talk about things that OpenAI is

doing. We could talk about Claude. You know, like, there's, there's, then there's a million other things that are integrating AI in different ways. So it feels like there's also this kind of flood of, of choice option. You know, it's, it's nice when one is in the lead because then I feel like I can have some confidence, but usually it's not clear. And so how does someone just. I almost want the therapy is to be a therapy session, like, how do I

change? How do I change and adapt so quickly? But particularly when it's AI, Is this something that, like, would you recommend and maybe in your workshops you do this to. Should people be going out and should they just be making stuff like, how do we make this practical for people who are listening? This particularly in L and D. But also, you know, I think about the people who are doing imagery or videos. I mean, this is changing everything that we do in some way.

It's a big question. Yeah. So, you know, for me, it's about understanding your expertise, you know, getting back to the human, like, knowing where you are at as a professional and being, being honest about, like any kind of deficiencies and whatnot. Like, maybe I need to up my skills and data and analytics. Maybe I need up my skills in business acumen. If I'm a videographer, maybe I, I want to go ahead and learn how to shoot with a new piece of equipment or whatever the case may be. Right,

that's. That's the one that's so there you're, you got your own identified gap. Then you have, you want access to multiple models. That is the key. I say this to all of my customers, even individual students, that you need access to multiple models. You cannot park yourself into one ecosystem of just OpenAI or just a Google shop or anything like that. So how like, oh wow, I don't have a budget. Let's say I got 20 bucks like a month, right? To invest in yourself.

Well, that's when you go to like po.com you get access to all of these different models, text based, right. Or you get access to Firefly from Adobe and then you have access to all of these various models. Right. And as opposed to like double down saying, oh, I'm just only using Google, some of the customers that I work with, they give their associates access to 14 or 15 different large language models and some video and some image models. I mean they're watching

their budget around that. But it's all secure, it's all through Microsoft Azure via APIs. And it's wonderful because they can go ahead and test and pressure test all of their workflows against various models as those models

change. That's where you want to be, right? So when you think about your workflows and doing tasks at the atomic level, there's going to be these radical shifts that happen in regards to capabilities and your awareness of those capabilities and how they impact what you do day in and day out is essential because the conversation is going to shift and change about that work output and how it's

accomplished. And, and if you have your head in the sand and you come up after six months, you could, you could find yourself in a world that these particular outputs or capabilities have radically changed and you have to play catch up, right? So that adaptability and understanding that we're in a constant state of change. Preparing yourself for that and investing in yourself, like what is your personal Learning

plan for 2026 in AI? You may have your workout plan set in January, New Year, New Me, but what does it look like with AI? And I mentioned that to everybody, like use whatever model, copilot, whatever you got access to to help you make that plan. Where are your sources of truth? What are the videos you watch, should watch every morning or once a week on Fridays? I know I do.

I'm watching Matt Wolf, I'm watching Matthew Berman, I'm watching Nate B. Jones because they're great thinkers, they're pragmatic and they give you some guidance as far as what's happening out there. So it's a shift. It's most definitely a shift. But I think once everyone gets used to this pace, they'll begin to understand the relationship with the technology better and how they need to show up. Yeah, I guess I should be listed

in all the mats. Maybe not great thinker, but I appreciated how many mats you listed out there. Josh, I want to talk a little bit about the work is changing because I do think on this show particularly, we talk a lot about images and video and the creation and from a learning

development perspective primarily. But it is interesting the things AI is looking, it's looking more and more the things that you would do as an instructional designer traditionally or if you're, you know, training specialist or video producer or fill in role is starting to shift already, which I think is really interesting. Right. Like, and you said something to me before we got on the call about the bar raising. Can, can we revisit that? Because I do think, I do think that it's, it's

interesting for us to think about. One, it's a, I think it ties back to the adaptability. But two, I think fundamentally, as you've said now, I think twice, work is changing and I think that's maybe not clear yet to everyone how that might be or what that might manifest itself like. Any thoughts? Yep. So when, you know, when this, when AI first came out, you know, we're getting reports in regards to AI's impact on tasks across various roles and people became very, very apprehensive, like,

oh my gosh, this is going to completely take my job. And I think what we're actually seeing is a redefinition of the work output and what you do and how you get there. And because this technology is increasingly like it's constantly creating better, highly qualified, actionable outputs, then the bar gets raised for everybody.

So for novices that are, maybe I'm not a graphic designer, but my gosh, last week with Nano Banana Pro, I can create an infographic in 10 seconds that is absolutely perfect and I can use it in my slide deck that has never happened before. So the bar is now set for those individuals to create picture perfect infographics. Now, let's say I'm a graphic

designer. Well, now in my mind the bar is raised and I'm creating content pipelines, meaning I can go ahead and create an infographic that then feeds into a slide deck that then feeds into a video script that then feeds into a multimedia interactive presentation. Because I have all that experience and I know exactly how I'm solving The problems, it just shows up different because you have that experience. That's

what we're getting at. And when it comes to specifically learning and development, it's the propagation of learning experiences at scale into work. And as an expert, there are many things that you need to know to make that happen at scale. Regardless of what other agents and platforms and what tools do you have to run policy on these things, you have to vet it out, you have to make sure that it's effective. So, you know, the rising tide lifts all boats. I think with technology

it's the same thing. We're going to have so many professionals that were. And Matt, you and I have, we've done video workshops together where people are just apprehensive about video. Like there's, oh my gosh, there's so many different things that we have to learn. But when you can have a system that can do the lighting, that can do the characters, that can go ahead and set up the scenario, you're getting to the end product that you want, which is a great scenario based

exchange or video and which, which is awesome. I mean, it's such an empowering feeling for people when they know they can go ahead and create a pointed solution that impacts the business, that impacts their associates, and that's where they're at to where now we have a baseline of how professionals are going to show up in regards

to media creation. But for experts, the bar is going to be raised also as far as what they can create and you know, what the marketplace or what their business expects out of them.

Yeah, I've often imagined that as we go through this change, it's like artisans of old, right? They would build, build, build. But now there's, there's boutiques, right? Like you have craftsman's crafts people who are doing things at a boutique kind of. It's a very special thing. It's, you know, very high quality. It's, you know, you get it because. Not because it's maybe perfect or mass produced, you get it because

it's unique, it's special. And I do wonder there's going to be that kind of lane of traffic from an AI perspective that there's going to be things like, yeah, I just need to, I need the thing that's like ikea. I just need to assemble it. And then I also. But I want that piece over here to be the perfect piece. I want that to be the one that really speaks to the heart, not the fact that I need a cabinet. Yeah, I think there's

gonna be plenty of room for that. And you're talking about massive creative unlocks for all kinds of different content at scale for individuals that they may have premeditated some type of book or some type of video or a movie or a TV show, but they had no way or the economics to

produce anything. That's all changing. And I believe that's gonna go ahead and, and push all kinds of different media channels and in how outputs are created and who's part of that story and who can be included as part of that, whether it be on the small screen on YouTube or you're on some kind of cable or whatever, whatever the case may be, or just on an, in a learning environment.

And that excites me because now we're being more inclusive as far as who can help tell that story or who can solve that problem. So one of the concerns with AI, Josh,

and again, I would love to hear if you have perspectives or if you talk about this in the book at all, is we saw in the last couple months, channels like YouTube are cracking down on AI slot. People are generating, you know, these voice or faceless videos, we'll call it, with AI voice by cranking them out. Sometimes, you know, just we'll question the value of what they're. They're creating. And, and obviously we

know that AI can get things wrong. You know, it does say very clearly we're responsible to make sure there's no mistakes in the information. When, when we look at our profession, we look at the changes that are happening, obviously move with the speed there, there's likelihood that things are gonna be wrong in the system. So what, what advice do you give to people who are out there? And that's

the concern. And how do you, how do you make sure you're treating the stuff well, but not also maybe taking it just as is. Maintain your integrity. That's it. That is the word, integrity. Are you putting something out in the world that is noise or is it signal? And what is the, what is the process for vetting that information out? Are you just copying, pasting from the model and putting it out there on LinkedIn as a post, or using AI to make a comment?

It doesn't resonate. Right. Humans are, I mean, we're really good at reading, you know, information that's in front of us and whether it's truly having an emotional connection. And that's where a lot of the AI content, whether you're reading it, whether you're viewing a video or even listening to music, you don't have those emotional attachments. Now that is changing though, right? So that is one of the unique things, is that we see this in some of the latest

models and the way that they respond. I know that for myself personally, if I'm in an environment, like if I'm driving or something, I'll just flip on, chat GPT and have a conversation. Right? And it's kind of shocking how now there's more emotion in it. Same thing with audio specifically around. Not to name any vendors, but there's like some music creation tools that are out there that blow me away. Like we are at the cusp where you cannot tell it's AI,

right? But for, and this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, raising the bar for musicians to where they're like, oh, am I out of a job? No, they're not out of a job. They have a new tool that's going to allow them to play a riff and then that riff can go into AI and then they can orchestrate a whole new song within minutes. That would have taken them studio time and additional artists and bass players and all this other stuff. They're getting to their vision, to their end product

faster, maintaining their integrity. Right, Going back to that word. And so that will eventually happen with video. So I think, you know, for the effort that we're putting out there, to put something out in the world, maintaining your integrity and maintaining the professionalism and consistency is critical because we're going to have these false. A false sense of security as far as the quality of an output. And you're going to put it out there

and it's not going to resonate. Like you're going to get some negative feedback. And so I think having like rubrics of evaluation are critical even for your own personal self or if you're putting some kind of output for your company, if it's AI generated, what does that look like? Like, what is that evaluation rubric? What is the QA around it? Then when you put that out there, do your consumers understand that it was generated by AI,

Right? What kind of transparency are you going to put out there? You put a little note saying, hey, these videos were created by AI or not. Because once an individual understands that it was created by AI, the way that they consume it is completely different than if they start consuming it and they're like, wait, this isn't a human. We get that a lot with avatar technology, right? Not naming any vendors, but you and I both know that with these avatars, if they're on the screen

for too long, they don't resonate anymore. But if you bring them on the screen for about six to eight seconds for an emotional fence post and then you take them off the screen and you go to B roll, it's very effective. You don't even have time to process was that a real human or not. You're already on to the next thing and you know, it leaves your short term memory. So yeah, I keep going back to integrity. Well, I love that answer. And it makes me think that, you know, there's,

there's obviously opportunities to really succeed there. And there's opportunities because people, you, you know, not everyone will have the same level of integrity that they'll do things that maybe make shortcuts and, but, and that's okay, right? People are going to figure this out. And humans are lazy, Matt. We are, we're so lazy. And I'm there with them at times. You know, and so,

but I am too. But, but I love that, like having those, those check points in place makes a lot of sense to me, you know, And I did think with your comment about the music, right, Like I'm not looking forward to seeing the robots on stage anytime soon. So there's still opportunities for the humans, we hope. Although Chuck E. Cheese been doing the robot for a long time. Long time. Well, I can't wait to see how that evolves with AI. Well, Josh,

I have two more things I want to just talk to you about. One is I want to get just your reaction to a stat and I don't have the exact numbers. We're going to release this research coming soon, but I want to see are you surprised or not surprised? So we did research, 600 people in the study about US or English speaking, but multiple countries, US UK. So not just a US audience. These are professionals, 18 to whatever who were asked to watch a

video. And they were asked and they got. There was four variations of video. There's one that was a, like an avatar. Like. No, it's a, like a static image with a visual, like visual graphic. Right. That moves with the audio. Right. So as metoxic moves, you got a, a human picture in picture, an actual human talking. You had an avatar picture in picture and then you had like a full screen

avatar. Actually I think there was a full screen human in there. They were asked to watch this video, had these different kind of setups and then they were watching it. It was a task based, task based thing like do this thing, learn how to do this thing in Google. The research that we got back basically indicated that the Avatars, the performance that people did. So we'll call it, whether it's comprehension or capacity to do a task after the fact, the avatars both, they actually did better.

But then, as you said, like, size of the avatar actually mattered. So does humans doing better on a task that involved avatar versus a human surprise you? Not at all. So again, it depends upon the composition of the window and cognitive load. Right. So if you go back to the empirical evidence of a human in the bottom left or right hand corner, sometimes it's a wash, depending upon the content that's being shown. As far as B roll or additional information

in the background, I'm not surprised at all. If there are emotional pools that are happening during the knowledge transfer that maintains a human's attention on the screen to get that concept, that is a win. If you have information, and we both know this, if you have a human or an av, the screen and it's a distraction, people are going to not pay as much attention in the moment. Right. They're going to. Their mind's going to drift or they're going to think about how weird or odd the media is as

opposed to being immersed in the experience. So what you orchestrated there, if the experience is immersive and it's not causing cognitive load, that's the reason why you're probably getting better scores or retention off the back end. Because it's a superior experience. Yeah, I like the emotional pull. Right. So the content was all the same base, basically just changing the delivery mechanisms. Right. But yeah, if the, like, it's less, could be less

distraction. Like, I move a lot, I twitch, I move forward, you know, like, so that. That could absolutely play into it. Maybe it's my voice. Maybe it's the voice. Right. Was there more modulation or not as much modulation? So I do love that, that resonance. Okay, so that's one thing. It's just a. More. More data to come. There's some other interesting things. I can't wait. I'm looking forward to that. But definitely some. Some interesting

things there because I know a lot of people. Avatars are definitely one of those things. And since you brought them up, very mixed bag. Right, people? Yeah, yeah, we want them, we want to use them. Or. Gosh, this is an uncanny valley. A lot of the way. The second thing I wanted to chat

with you about is we recently released our human framework. You know, we did a podcast episode of it recently. So for those who maybe missed it, I'll just re. Let me just recap and Josh, refresh your memory as well, so it's human is just an acronym. So harness your expertise, understand your audience, make it authentic, not artificial, aim for better, not just faster, and never skip reviews.

And I'm curious because you've, you've done way more thinking about applying AI and I'm curious how this resonates with you as a kind of approach to the work that we do, since we've been talking a lot about how work is changing. I don't know, everything you just said sounds like maintain your integrity. It sounds exactly like that, yes. All of it. You know, you just basically listed out a checklist of maintaining your integrity when creating video based

media. And all of those elements are extremely important. They're all part of that process of maintaining your expertise, maintaining your integrity, being able to go ahead and put something out in the world that's going to resonate, that's truly going to have impact. You need those checklists, whether it be a mental checklist or something that you have to go through a few times manually so that you get it down, you have

to go through them. I know that for myself that I go through so many different mental checklists and even before I put something out in the world, I may go back to a peer in the industry and say, what do you think about this through their lens and what do they think about, you know, about whatever content I'm putting out there. So, yeah, I absolutely love the human framework that you have there as far as video creation. So

one of the things I think that I've heard, particularly in conversations I read a lot of LinkedIn, one of the promises of AI is faster. And there's nothing in here in our integrity that says we can't go faster. But I do get a sense that kind of broadly, when we say something like aim for better, not just faster people, I get a little bit like. But that's not the promise of AI. AI is faster. And I guess I just love your hot take. Is faster the outcome we're going for, or is it yes and faster and

better? Yes. And so nobody knew AI was going to show up though it was going to show up three years ago, right? Nobody did. And so if you think about how AI is being implemented in orgs at scale, it shows up wildly different. And so what is happening in the meantime? In the meantime, there are goals, there are problems to be solved, there is deep work being done on initiatives that never stopped. And so all of those things need to happen. Why not lean in to make it faster?

Right? I mean, obviously maintain your integrity and There was so many. You know, here's the thing. I read those posts too. And so many of my peers, well, maybe a few, A few peers be like, we shouldn't be focusing in on content creation. There's bigger stories here, I get it. But work needs to get done. That six month training build, if we can knock a month off of it and we can get back on schedule, my gosh, let's use this AI

tool to streamline this workflow. I am all for the reconfiguration of workflows, of being able to go ahead and create content faster as long as the integrity is maintained and the intention is still there and you're just not checking a box and I think that's a qualifier there. That's really important because yes, you do have the abuse of the capability and that's

happened forever. Where people just go and copy and paste and call it done. Or and you hear stories in the marketplace of lawyers losing their license because they're referencing case law that doesn't exist. Or you know, companies that get out in front of their skis and they do, you know, a drive through AI and next thing you know, it's ordering 20,000

Chicken McNuggets. And you know, I mean, we, we, we try to improve what's going on out there, but as I mentioned before, humans are just lazy and they will go ahead and take advantage of the technology and think they're implementing a solve when actually they're creating friction. And I think that's what's happening is the content creation part gets a bad rap because one, it's been implemented probably improperly for a long period of time as far as an educational experience solve.

And so the thought was, oh, we're going to go ahead and create a whole bunch of crap at scale. Right. But I think that we have to go through these pain points. Like we need to go through these moments to where there's a realization of more is not better, of that we have to have rigor, that we have to go ahead and have like a human framework to vet all this stuff out so that yes, we can go ahead and do these solves for the business.

We're maintaining our integrity, we're putting great learning experiences out there for our associates and it's a win for everybody. But along the way, we are going to run through these periods where AI is going to get a bed rap for creating AI slop and creating poorly executed content. Yeah. Well, Josh,

this has been a fantastic conversation. I'm looking forward to digging in more into the book and learning more. If people want to find the book, they want to learn more about you, connect with you. Where should they turn? Yeah, they can go right. Oh, right here over on Amazon. So yeah, Amazon is a great way to find the book. You can also get on ATD Press, JoshCavalier.com and soon to be JoshCavalier AI. I have to go and change those DNS settings here shortly to flip the book

webpage up. The companion website can't wait. That's going to be amazing. The book website, so many additional pieces of content to support your journey as you read the book. Fantastic. I have you labeled as JoshCavalier AI. So maybe I'll just keep it in hopes that put some pressure on you, Josh. Push the pressure on you. Right, right, right. That's what we do over Thanksgiving holiday. That's right. Well, as we wrap up, we'd like to end the way we always do, Josh, which is

with our final take as quick, fast summary. So, Josh, what is your final take for today's episode? Maintain your integrity. I mean, have fun. Get out there and find what your personal AI training plan is in 2026. Try different tools, get out there, push boundaries. But along the way, maintain your professionalism, maintain your integrity and just show up better for yourself and for your business

or whoever you support. Fantastic. Well, Josh, always, always glad to have you here in the visual lens and thank you you again for, for sharing your book with us where hopefully a lot of people will take up the opportunity to read that and gain more wisdom and insight from you. Thanks, Matt. Appreciate it. All right, everybody, you hear it like, we've got, we've got lots of interesting challenges ahead. We gotta

make sure we're focused on our integrity. We gotta make sure we're understanding the systems, playing with them, learning what's going to work for us, creating new, we're creating new work, new opportunities and that is.