Universal Lessons from Grief: Ashlee Boyson, Author of One Day - A Child’s Journey Through Grief and Loss

Music. Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. Do me two, maybe three, maybe four, four solids, four favors. If you can go to the newly updated website, tonyoverbay.com, sign up for my newsletter, follow me on the social medias at virtual.couch on Instagram and at virtualcouch on TikTok, and watch out for the lives I do with my daughters, Mackie and Sydney.

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So today's episode, this is easily one of my favorite guests of all time, Ashley Boysen. If you're not familiar with her, she came on Waking Up to Narcissism a couple of years ago. I believe it was episode 56. And her story is incredible. Like literally Dateline NBC, incredible. We even talk a little bit in the interview about Dateline's Keith Morrison and her interactions with him. And wonderful spoiler alert, he is just as awesome as I had hoped he would be.

Ashley is seriously a remarkable woman whose story demonstrates resilience, wisdom, humor, heart.

If you're not familiar with her, let me just set the stage a little bit. Imagine this, you're 28 years old and you have five children, including a six-week-old baby. One night, detectives arrive at your door, I think it was at one or two in the morning, with news that changes everything. Now, you'd already been... Thinking that something's been off in your marriage for a while, but you just weren't really sure. But you find out your husband has been murdered.

And you also discover that he was having an affair and he was actually murdered by his affair partner's husband. In an instant, you're a widow, you're a single parent, and you are faced with rebuilding your entire world from scratch.

There's a moment in this interview where Ashley gets so real about what her true thoughts were in that very moment when she found out on the porch in the middle of the night that I honestly think is one of the single most, you are the only version of you ever and you are living in that moment. And so whatever moment that is right then and there, that is what you're thinking.

That's what you're feeling. So check that out. There's no way that you can anticipate what you would do or think or feel in a moment. So just giving yourself grace and stepping back and just saying, check this out. That is what I was thinking. That is how I was feeling. And when it gets to that point in the interview, you will absolutely know what I'm talking about.

So after she discovered this tragedy, this was back in 2011. What followed was a journey through grief and healing and ultimately a transformation. Now, since her appearance on Waking Up to Narcissim, she's continued to do all kinds of work, helping others navigate their own paths a lot through grief. But she has other programs on her website. She works a lot in focusing on helping parents guide their kids through loss, because that's something that she knows all too well.

So today we're going to discuss her newest book. It's called One Day, A Child's Journey Through Grief and Loss. And it's a uniquely powerful resource that Ashley Rowe and her daughter Boston provided the illustrations.

And what makes this book just so special, and we talk about it in the interview, is so many things in its approach, but the illustrations themselves are deliberately without facial expressions and they're without color, which admittedly I noticed at first, I just didn't think much about it. But Ashley shares that the choice to illustrate it this way was so that you could create space for children to project their own emotions into the scenes of grief rather than being told how they should feel.

And when she explains that, it's another one of these powerful moments because you all of a sudden feel like the book just unlocks a whole different level of emotional awareness and depth. And it's just one of the examples of her deep understanding of grief and emotional processing, which makes sense because of what she's been through. In this conversation, we're going to talk about how Ashley's personal tragedy became a catalyst for helping others.

She truly took a moment that no one could ever expect, anticipate, or want, and then making something so powerful of the experience instead of disappearing into the shadows. And we're going to also talk about why allowing children to experience their genuine emotions is so crucial to healing and growing moving forward. We may even think that we're providing space for our kids to feel because we are starting to talk about emotions now.

I would question, I don't want to cause anyone to feel any shame. There are just some wonderful things I think we'll bring awareness to so that you can even show up better to be able to help your kids feel their emotions and experience life just as them and not having to be caretakers for somebody else. And we also talk about the complex, sometimes very contradictory feelings that can arise simultaneously during grief, but really in any situation.

And Ashley talks a lot about practical ways to support grieving with our kids without imposing our own discomfort, without diffusing our own emotions onto our kids, which we actually do, I think, far more often than we think. And in my opinion, how that creates little people pleasers who don't really know how to tap into their own emotional experiences. Now, in addition to Ashley being an author, she is a mother of seven now. She's remarried. She's a widow survivor. She's a foot zoner.

We'll get into that a little bit. She's hilarious. I hope you can feel my energy for all the tragedy that she's been through. She's so fun and infectious. And when we talk about foot zoning in particular, there's some really funny things that she shares about that. But she's somebody that's really learned how to transform her own pain into purpose. And her laugh is infectious. I think her insights are profound.

And then her ability to discuss heavy topics with both gravity and levity and light, I think is a gift that you'll experience throughout the conversation. This is definitely one that I would highly encourage you if you are just listening to this on any of your audio podcast platforms, go find this one on YouTube. And while you're there, please, I guess it's a fifth solid now, hit that subscribe button. That would be wonderful.

Go see Ashley, watch her in the interview because again, smile, laugh is very infectious. So whether you're navigating grief yourself, you're supporting somebody who is, or you're simply interested in developing a deeper emotional IQ, especially with kids. I think this interview is just full of wisdom and I think it really transcends the topic of more than just loss alone.

So join me as we welcome back Ashley Boyson and we dive into a conversation about allowing space for all the emotions, the healing power of authenticity and how we can better support both ourselves and children through some of life's most difficult transitions.

Witty hilarious anecdote that i might edit out was you were only like you were like one minute past one and i was like on amazon and i was about to buy something and so then i just thought okay if you don't show up soon then i could blame you for me buying the thing because i would be gaslighting and i was looking at the notes of the first time you were on the show episode 56 waking up to narcissism and i forgot this part but i was telling you that you had some technology glitch

and it turned out that my microphone was off so i was gaslighting you there so i thought that would only be appropriate if i have tools now i won't let you do that okay oh yes exactly i'm very proud of you okay i'll do an immature thing and i'll take ownership for you getting the tools i'm sure you learned them from all my podcasts that's right that's right okay all right okay okay at least you know exactly ashley i always want to say your name with a

french accent do you know this do people say that boy song wouldn't that be cool let's do it okay all right Welcome, Ashley, a little two-time Waking Up to Narcissim guest. I want to run this one on the virtual couch as well because of what we're talking about today, but welcome back to the podcast. It's so good to see you. Thank you. So good to be here. Okay. I thought about this. I'll probably do a fancy intro before we get to what people are hearing right now.

But this is so wild. Before we get to your book that we're going to talk about today, which is wonderful. And I have so many questions and thoughts. Here's what I read in the intro last time you were on. And it was directly from your Amazon page of your book. And you said, I am a victim. I mean, it's so wild, Ashley, to say this part. I'm a victim of murder through a series of events. And by two shots of a gun, I was made a widow at the age of 28 with my youngest child to six weeks old.

I'm a victim of infidelity. I felt unlovable. I've felt rejected. I've had days in my life that I wasn't sure I would take a breath again, let alone be able to raise my five children. But it goes with that. But then you start talking about the hope and being a survivor. And then we start with an intro like that. And then at some point, we're just laughing in the podcast. Then there was emotions. And that's what I just love about you. You just encapsulate every feeling and vibe and emotion.

So maybe for those that have not heard the earlier episode, can you tell us about your story before we get to your book? Absolutely. I guess my story, we all have stories from when we're little, but the thing that really got me on a path of figuring out who I was again was in 2011, my husband was having an affair that I didn't know about.

And one night I met at the door, a bunch of detectives that told me not only about the affair, but the husband had come with a gun and my husband had died in this other woman's arms with two shots of a gun a bullet in his forehead and one in his heart and that was my defining moment we all have defining moments in our life but sorry i just said that really fast that's a big story and i know you'll go find the other podcast to hear more yeah exactly i'll link that but yeah

um but that's where the brokenness that you just talked about began but it hadn't began there but i was really fully aware of it in that moment and over the course of the last what is it for almost 14 years now, I've just been on a journey to not only heal a Me and my five kids who went through that, but God has placed me in circumstances to be able to share his light to help others know that they're not alone and to find their way out of their pits and their broken moments that they think

they're never going to survive. And I will. I'll link to that podcast. And you have courses for helping people through infidelity, being a widow, things that I think are you can't teach something that you haven't really been through and you've been through a lot. You have a lot of things that you can help people with. What do you enjoy helping people with the most? Probably teaching them how to interpret and help their children through grief.

That's just kind of become a passion, especially more recently. Watching my kids go through all the stages now and have older kids. And I've seen what works and I've seen what doesn't. So I am really passionate about helping parents focus on the things that do work and navigating that part. I'm curious, though, that you deal with a lot of these heavy things when you're coaching people or helping people. And I get asked often as a therapist if I bring it home or if it has an impact

on me. And I think good old male brain, I can compartmentalize. There are some that really get through to me, but I just really enjoy being able to be there and help somebody. I would imagine that you're what I call the pathologically kind. And maybe would you consider yourself highly sensitive? Or, I mean, are you in that camp? Absolutely. I've had a really... Figure out ways to not disconnect because you have to be connected to these

people when you're doing, I'm a foot zoner now too. So I'm always working with people and trying to help them get through their emotions. So when I first started even just responding to emails, when my blog first came out, it would white me out for days. I'd read these people's stories and it's almost like, okay, I'll take it on. I'll be their savior. I got this.

I don't want them to feel it. But so I've just had to learn to, with different things, learn to have my armor up and still leave space for people because I've gone to that extreme too. Like I can't let anybody in because it's scary. It's hard to feel what other people feel and not. So yeah, it's been a journey definitely to figure out how to not take it on. Hey, can we spend a couple minutes on foot zoning? Because that's one of those

that I don't even know what I don't know about it. And I'm so curious about it. And can I start with maybe what a lot of people would be curious about? Sure. Okay. What do you do when the feet are kind of nasty? Are there dirty feet? What do you do? I have a little thing of baby wipes and I'm like, okay. And if that doesn't work, I'm like, let's start with the foot soap. Get off. Okay. I have to tell you, my wife and I at our church, people did a trek.

The kids did a trek one year long ago. We were the mom, pa, three days, no showers, the dusty roads and stuff. And we decided that we would try to just do this really incredible ceremony and wash their feet. and we got hot water from the mess hall or whatever. And we had bought all these hummus stones and these lotions and stuff. And it was a very cool moment. But man, I had to detach from the fact that I was washing all these dirty feet.

Yeah, you know, kind of gross, actually. It's funny because people are like, oh, you're comfortable with feet. I'm like, not at all. But somehow I have this gift and I'm really good at what I do. And I don't even look at it as feet after a while. I'm looking for the reflexology points. and okay now here's the part i don't know and i have the most ticklish feet in the world so first of all would that be a problem and then but what is foot zoning,

It'd be a problem until you realized how great it was. And then you'd be like, oh, I don't have to close your feet anymore. I need to do this. I need to relax. So foot zoning is like the ancient art of reflexology where every part of your body is connected somewhere to your feet. It kind of takes that and adds a little bit of crack to it. And so it's like balancing out the spiritual, emotional, physical. And what's the other one? There's four bodies. I know. I'm all making these

jokes. Musical. Balancing all four bodies. Okay. Physical, emotional, spiritual. Okay, all four. So it helps just identify trapped emotions and areas in your body where you're storing them. And just really helps people to identify. Because a lot of times we're like, oh, no, I don't feel anger. And we just push it back down. So it shows up in your body and then it shows up on your feet.

And so my job is to just help people figure out how to get that out instead of carrying it for the rest of their lives. First of all, it's so good to talk to you again. This is it. Last time we were interviewing you, we were talking about heavy topics, but then you're funny. It just makes it so much easier to talk about these things. So I have a foot massager that I put my feet in several times a day at home. And I do think that that is one of the most wonderful things in the world.

So is that kind of reflexology doing anything for me other than just making me feel good? I'm sure it is. Any movement of your feet, just getting the lymph system going, I think is great. Yeah. Okay. No, I love it. And I really, I interviewed a friend of mine, her name's Lana Garvin. And we were talking about the woo-woo, and she was saying that when she first learned woo, and then now she's into woo-woo, and I think I'm at woo and a half, and I really love it.

All the things that I just don't know, that I don't know, that I'm open to, that I just, I don't know. I love that stuff. Were you always someone that was kind of into the woo? Yeah, I was more woo starting out. And then my grandma was really woo-woo, and I saw her help a lot of people. And my dad's a chiropractor and he's really into the more natural things.

And then I had a lot of bad experiences with some medication, like right after the murder trial that made me feel suicidal for an entire night. And I laid in bed. I'm like, I just prayed the whole time. I'm like, Heavenly Father, I know this isn't real. I know it has to be the medicine. They said it could be, and I never took it again, but I'm like, I need to heal.

And I didn't know how exactly how that was going to work and so I tried all different avenues and foot zoning really helped me during I think we talked about last time my daughter was at an eating disorder facility yeah yeah that's when I really got into I had a lady foot zoning me and then wow.

Through i had covid really bad a few years later and that really helped more than any of the medication so i've just become more woo woo maybe even three woos just there's gonna say our bodies know what to do we just need to help support our bodies to figure out and shift some of our beliefs that everything has to be healed by a pill or something and and some things do but yeah well it's funny actually i just mentioned this

briefly on a podcast a little while ago i was going to keep it all secret because I want to ignore it, that it will go away. But I have a herniated disc in my back. I actually meet with a spinal surgeon tomorrow, but I don't want to go that route. And so, I'm reading this book called Back in Charge. And it's more of a spine surgeon who said that he had a bad spinal surgery and this chronic pain, and he learned to heal it through expressive writing and

changing up the pain pathways. And I am loving the concept. I mean, if you're throwing three woos out there, I think I'm going to be solidly in the two, give me another week or two. And I really, I like it. I feel like I'm able to do things, take action on behalf of my own body. And I'm really enjoying that, even though I still have this pain as well right now. Well, I hope you answer soon. Yeah, me too. Thank you.

Okay. Let's get to your book because there's a couple of things in the beginning when I'd reached out to you and just saying, okay, you want to come on and talk about the book? I love the idea, the story. I'd love for you to talk about that.

But I had immediately bought the kindle version and there's just a part in the beginning that just it's odd i almost shared this with you then but i realized even though i've been a therapist 20 years starting to really understand how we even the best of parent would tell their kids when they express emotions don't worry about it it's not a big deal calm down and that we were just in in a sense teaching our kids that their emotions were wrong and and eventually instead of externalizing their

emotions they have to internalize them and now you need somebody to tell you how to think or how to feel or that it's okay yeah okay well that's okay though that part we're fine with all right yeah but and so talk about the book one day child's journey through grief and loss you are the author and your daughter boston is the artist, And so maybe first tell us about how the book came about. Tell me about the book and then I'll get into that part that I just think is so wonderful in the beginning.

Okay. So one day, it's called one day, my son who didn't ever know his dad because he was a tiny little baby. The movie Onward came out and it's about a boy who's on a journey to try to be able to connect with his dad who had passed away because he never met him, but the older brother did. And my son related so much to this character that it brought out emotions that he didn't even know were inside of him. And he spent years in counseling.

But one day as I was listening to, sometimes I'd go at his counseling appointment with him. A lot of times I would, because he was pretty young. I was listening to the words that he was saying and my kids were saying other things and people were emailing me with other things.

This idea just came to me and this was like, what six years ago probably yeah and i went home that night and i wrote this book in like three minutes like it just did you really everybody's like i told you i take on everybody's stuff yeah so everybody's pain i've never lost a parent but i've assisted so many people who have and i've been with these children who have and all their words and all their confusion and all their grief just came out in this book so i had it in a drawer kind

of forgot about it i was like someday i'm going to do something with that. And then when Boston was in the eating disorder facility, I'm like praying my guts out. How do we get this girl to see her worth? I know she's been through a lot and I know that this plays a role in what she's going through. And I just kept getting this feeling, tell her to draw for this book. So I sent her the book and she said every time she would draw, she would just be bawling.

And it was always pictures of her dad and her or her brother and And just people that she loved and it connected her to us. And it was during COVID, so we couldn't ever go see her. And it just became kind of like a step in her healing. And then we got busy, kind of forgot about it. And she was in a really bad situation this summer that she needed to get out of. And the same answer came, tell her to finish the book, send her some pictures, say, boss, I need you to draw these.

And she got out of this bad situation and she finished the book and here we are. So it's like it was my healing and my daughter's healing combined with all these words that so many people had shared about their experience of losing. I made the book more, it could be an older brother that they lost or a grandparent. So it's just an older person you love that you've lost. Okay. What I love about that. And first of all, Boston, if you ever listened to this, it's the, I love the way she draws.

I love her style and I'm so curious. And I like that you just said that I did feel like it's such a, I don't want to overuse the word muse because I found myself thinking of even people that I have lost. I haven't lost a parent. And so that's funny you said that because I caught myself thinking that. Whose idea was it to, and I'm going to read this part because this is so good. I just love this, Ashley.

You say, okay, this book is meant to hold space for children wherever they are in their healing journey without color or faces. Children can imagine that space without firing the neurons in their brain that tell them what they are feeling through what they see. That part is beautiful. So, if you're looking to watch on YouTube, it's in black and white and then the faces are blank.

So, whose idea was that? Because that that just touched me that was years of me in a utah state i studied child development so that was just i don't know it just came to me as she was drawing she started doing faces and i'm like hold on hold on because i'm kind of an empath and if i look at someone crying like i have to cry my my body tells me i'm sad and i just wanted kids to be able to look at it and think like where am i right now because in this picture she could be super mad.

Because that's an emotion it's okay to feel when you're at a funeral of your person you love. She can be crying her face off. But I wanted them to be able to create that when they talk to their mom after they read the book and say what they were feeling in that picture instead of being told. And then same thing with color, as you learn about like certain foods even are supposed to evoke emotion and the color of different things.

So I just didn't want any element of the book to be something that was created to make them feel a certain way. Okay. I love it. I feel safe to make some jokes with you. Absolutely. Have you ever watched those living scriptures videos and some of the guys have giant noses, which that becomes so distracting because they're just, they're so not the same size as other people's noses.

And then I had someone point out one time to me that there's a meme out there somewhere that shows that the person, the more wicked they are, the more colors they have in their hat. And so I just thought that was funny. So, I don't know what the nose part is, but the hat part, then you notice you're becoming very judgmental if they have a very colorful hat. We avoided that with your book. Yeah, right?

Yeah, no. Okay. And then I just felt very connected or seen, as we say in the business, because this is literally, I think I'd probably put this in a podcast in some way, shape, or form. Then I reach out to you. Then I get the book. And then it says, this is part you said, when children are healing, it's important not to tell them how they feel, but to support them in what they're feeling.

And then you say the color can evoke memories or create a particular goal in what someone should feel as they read. Facial expressions can evoke empathy and a child can connect more to what the person in the picture is telling them to feel rather than what they're actually feeling. We choose to leave both these elements out of the book to encourage the reader to embrace their journey and where they are learning the emotions that come with grief.

And I felt like the more I was learning about differentiation and think everything's a me thing that even, again, I go back to a good parent is still saying they're offloading their discomfort onto their. Kid without really meaning to of, hey, just think of it this way, or that isn't what this person meant. Or so again, negating that person's feelings to make them feel better.

So a lot of, there's a good version of a parent that is telling that person how they should feel in this situation or what they need to do. And so I just love that. I feel like that's the part that's been missing in childhood is just, how do you feel that curiosity? It's hard enough to see it with adults as a couples therapist. And this is maybe something where you're saying, yeah, No doubt, Tony, you're the therapist.

You should have thought about that a long time ago. But is that something that you've been good at your whole motherhood life? Oh, definitely not my whole motherhood for sure. I mean, a parent in their own grief, this isn't going to come natural. And that's what I'm hoping this book helps them go, oh, okay, I'm not messing up, but I can try this other way and let's just see how it feels. Because I remember so many times when my kids would come to me sad and I was in the anger.

Like anger was my safe place because the choices that got him killed, I didn't have as much empathy for the man that I absolutely loved and had this family with. Anger felt way more safe. So when they would come to me with, I feel sad, I miss dad, and I have that anger pit in my stomach. Luckily, I had learned enough about child development that I never looked at

him and said, your dad's a piece of crap. I'm going to tell you, you know, luckily, but that's the only thing that kept me from that was the knowledge of knowing that it was going to hurt them because they're half him. So, yeah. So for me, knowing that there's parents who are stuck in that place of anger or, you. I don't know, whatever their emotion is, it's really hard to allow a kid to feel when they say, I'm sad. What are you sad about?

Put your shoes on. We're going, we're getting out of the house. We're going to march. Whatever it is that you're coping with can really affect the way that your kid feels safe to bring his emotions to you, but also can really affect the way that they allow themselves to feel. Because if they're not allowed to feel sad when they're little kids, especially about a person they love that died, they're going to really struggle

being sad. And usually it's going to be replaced by anger and they're going to have anger problems at school and they're going to be getting in trouble. So really getting to the core of what the emotions are is what a parent's role is not to try to prevent sadness. And that was one that I wished like, oh, no, no, we're not sad. We're going to march. We're going to go. Let's go to Disneyland.

Let's go do something. Yes. But that doesn't take away the pain of a child that just went through something hard. No, it's just bad. Like they bury it and they even feel like, OK, I guess it's not OK to feel this way. And now we start dipping into that. What's wrong with me? I shouldn't feel this way. I'm being told that I just need to focus on the positive. I just need to be told that at least I have these certain things. Or what about my parent?

They're saying, well, how do you think I feel about that? And I just think we just don't recognize all the times that we are communicating to stuff your feelings and emotions.

And it's really fascinating when I will get a couple or maybe just an individual that starts to really sit and recognize their emotions, where they feel them. To feel them in different places, their chest, their stomach, their head, their neck. And I swear when you finally get someone to say, all right, I'm going to allow my emotions to come out. They just bum rush the person. It's almost like they say, okay, this might be our only shot.

So here comes everything, childhood, adolescence, everything, because we might not ever get out again. And so when you were going through that, would you have big emotions often? Were they uncontrollable? Would you shove them down? What was that like for you? For myself or for my kids? Yeah, yeah. For yourself. Oh, I was a stuffer and a marcher and I can't let everybody know that I'm not

feeling strong. So I would pretend to be strong and I didn't even know how to ask for help. It was just like, oh, I got this. I'm going to strap my kids to my back and I'm going to march the hell out of here and we're not looking back. So, but everybody's different. Some parents say I couldn't get out of bed. Some kids say, my parent kept saying, well, at least he's not sick anymore. He died, but I'm so grateful.

And the kid's not ready to be grateful. The kid doesn't know about the pain that the parent, whatever it was, you know? So yeah, just really focusing on, tell me about what you're feeling. Tell me about what this looks like. What color does it look like? Where in your body does, do you feel that emotion?

You know, just asking the questions that help them identify so that they can be in tune with themselves and create a sense of themselves and also get confidence again, because these big losses for a kid can really take away the confidence of who they are or it was it my fault just our very existence we question because something happened and was it my fault i was born and now he's gone you know whatever i

appreciate you saying that because i find that one fascinating when even parents go through a divorce or a kid's been a child of divorce that even if they know even if they know as an adult that that literally wasn't their fault if you really sit with that for a minute though i can almost always hear someone and say, I mean, but I wasn't the best kid. If I would have probably been a little bit better, if I would have gotten better grades or maybe my parents wouldn't have been as upset.

So they're even trying to tell me, I mean, I know it wasn't all my fault, but I probably could have done things better. I know it's interesting because in one sense, we can say that is that part of us that since I'm the only one that knows what it feels like to be me, that the world does revolve around me. So I probably played a bigger role in that than everyone realizes.

It's fascinating. So you were a stuffer and a marcher. And then did you have a moment where all of your emotions just hit you hard and came out it was years and years later i went through a really bad marriage and when i remarried the third time you never think you're gonna say that but i do have to say it i was like in this safe place with a steady person and a partner who wanted to do everything with me and it was like my body was like no,

Nope. That's when I finally slowed down enough and a lot of things came out. And then when I was pregnant and the last time I was pregnant, this happened. And it just, it was like, I got to start over a healing process that I never began fully. I just shoved and tried to hide and it all came out then. And that's the part we don't know when it's going to show up. Like we think, oh, I avoided that one. I didn't even have to face it.

But you're going to whether you choose to or your body makes you slow down enough you're going to have to face the grief that happens in your life absolutely

and it's wonderful that you had a husband at that point that was he was up for that task to provide that safety that space. Totally i i don't know if i ever told this one i still don't know what this one was all about but there was a time i wasn't a therapist yet i was in the computer forensics market i'm at a trade show in Lake Tahoe. I'm at a Safeway. I go to figure out how much something costs. I run it through a scanner. And one of the workers came over and told me,

that's not for scanning for prices. That's for purchasing. And I lost my mind. And I don't know where that came from. And I've never done that again. And it's so funny. The therapist in me is saying, what was it about that chocolate bar, that donut, and my lack of knowledge for the price that I had to then, it just, everything came out. And I ended up apologizing to the lady because I felt like I had a moment. And to this day, I just think, okay, that was something that I had been packing

away for a long time, or it was a very expensive donut. I'm not really sure. That might've been it too. Maybe it was. Maybe that price just threw me. Yeah. There's a couple of things in the book and then I want to make sure we have plenty of time.

Man, there's so much good stuff. Actually, if I would have known that one day you would be gone, I would have spent more time showing you how much you meant to me. I would have given you 10 more kisses every night. I would have held you tight and I wouldn't have let you go. I find myself often thinking, what if... The people close to me aren't here tomorrow, but then all of a sudden my anxious attachment will kick in and I can feel a lot.

But when you were writing that part, have you had those thoughts and feelings as well? Totally. Well, and I saw my kids looking back and like, what if we would have done this different? What if we would have? But I definitely, I think that was my biggest struggle is I thought, even as an adult who knows better, I thought this has to be my fault. If I would have been a better wife, he wouldn't have been cheating on me. If I would have been, you know, and we just, we go back a lot.

But that what I've found is that being stuck there causes a lot of depression and a lot of not being able to move forward.

But then we have the other extreme where we look too far forward and we're like, well, what what if everybody dies tomorrow and we never fully live because we're so worried about, well, I don't even want you to go on that trip. I don't want you to. And we stifle ourselves and our families to move forward because it's scary. I've been there, too. I've been on both extremes. So, yeah, in the book, I hope what the outcome is, is people realize it's okay. I don't need to shame

myself for looking back. Yeah. And I don't need to shame myself when I get scared about what's next, but I can be present here and I can be safe right here in this moment. And that person that I love can still be with me in this moment and helping me down the path that's going to lead me to the best place. And you convey that very well. There's a page that says, they say one day it'll feel like a bad dream.

And I love how you say, I hope not, because that means one day I might forget how much I miss you. And I think when somebody is trying to say something kind, it's so fascinating to see that what that could mean to a kid that could terrify them. The internal conflict. And my neighbor, actually, I gave her this book because her kids had lost their grandma recently. And she said, after they read it, they talked for like two hours.

And there were things that she had told her kids, like, you'll see them someday. They thought it meant someday she's coming back through this door. And because of the book, she said they were able to talk about it. And oh, no, someday means this. And identify what these sayings we say as adults, we don't realize our kids are internalizing them way different than what we actually mean. She's like, we believe that we're going to see them when we die.

But her kids were like, oh, grandma's coming back anytime. So she said it was really cool. It would just open a door for them to have all these conversations. You know, what's interesting about that is, I have to get permission from my

daughter to share this part, but, you know, she's opened up about how when she was younger, even things like her baptism day or those things actually were pretty scary because here you are, this eight-year-old little kid, and you're being told that, okay, now all of your sins are washed away, and now this spirit is going to fall upon you and be with you all the time. And then my wife and I were attending a baptism.

And when you hear it from that angle, we were trying to make eye contact and see, was the little girl terrified or she was sitting there like, okay, that sounds kind of scary. And we're sitting there like smiling, like this will be great. It's so true. It is. It's so wild to hear it that way. Okay. And then there's, okay, here it is. Grief makes us feel all different emotions, sometimes at the same time.

And that is a hard concept. I know for people to understand, I deal with that a lot with the adults I'm working with, where they can be mad, it's whole object relations, you know, the ability to view something as a whole object and I can be mad at it and I can like certain things about it and I can be frustrated. And sometimes I'm helping people navigate their faith journey, that can be their view with like their religious institution or with their partner or their kid.

Or how do you teach a kid that though, that they can have all those emotions? I love that line, but have you had some success with that? Yeah, even kids that start to feel guilty because they're happy in a moment and they like start to hold back talking about, OK, what are you holding back with right now? We're at this birthday party. You're having fun. And something triggered the I lost my dad or they want to watch a movie that was dad's favorite movie or whatever it was.

I remember picking my daughters up from a movie or from a party and they had started a movie. And I don't remember why it reminded I don't

know if there was like a gun in it something reminded them of their loss so when they got in the car and like are you you guys just got there an hour ago like I just don't want to be there I don't even like those guys and I knew that wasn't true so I dug a little deeper so was there anything in particular that happened and then one of the twins was like well they turned on this movie and then this guy was shooting somebody and it sounds like it wasn't even an appropriate movie,

but for them, it was really too close to their loss and brought up that sadness. So we talked for a while and they didn't end up going back to the party, but it was an option we talked about. I was like, you guys, even though your dad's gone, you can still have a fun time. You can, if you don't like a certain movie, you can ask for what you need. And they just got really, when they would get triggered, they got really quiet where My son got really loud and aggressive and kicking.

And yeah, one thing that I like to share about being able to hold space for a lot of grief in the moment that I found out that Emmett had been murdered, my first wave of emotion and this, I used to feel guilty for this, but I don't feel guilty anymore because I had spent months wondering what is happening. Why is he acting this way? Why does he seem off? Why does he seem distant? My first wave of emotion was relief. Because I wasn't crazy. And that's the infidelity part, right? Yeah.

That separate than the murder, because I was not relieved he was killed. I was not relieved he was gone. And now I had to tell his kids about it. I was relieved that I wasn't crazy because I had spent so long feeling crazy. And in that same moment came over me, devastation, heartbreak, embarrassment. I was so embarrassed. The whole fricking town was going to know this story. It wasn't like I could just, he got in a wreck, he loved us, we get to move on.

But I had enough space in me to have all of those emotions within seconds of each other firing. So there's going to be times when you're triggered that maybe it triggers the sadness, but then you have different waves that happen. And that's what that part of the book is supposed to mean. Like there is enough room inside of you to have joy, even when you've gone through a loss. And there's enough room inside of you to be angry, even though you're really, really sad.

And I think that there could not be a better example of that. I mean, weren't you approached, was it middle of the night or early morning? And I think it was like one o'clock in the morning or something. Okay. So what's really interesting is I'm a huge acceptance and commitment therapy therapist. That's the modality I love. And it starts from this place of since you're the only version of you that's ever been you, you think and feel the way you do because you do.

And I never want this to sound dismissive. But when somebody will even say, well, why did you say that? Or why did you think that? the first response really is because I did, because that's how I felt. That's what I thought. Now I can look at it with some curiosity now. And so I love what you just said there that you used to feel bad about it, but that was, it just was, that was your first reaction. There's nothing wrong with that.

And what becomes wrong with it is when we like shame ourselves, like you shouldn't have felt relief because your husband was just killed. But the part of me that was feeling the relief was the girl who was wondering what was happening. And I can love her right there. She needs to be lived right there because that's a really hard thing to face. She does. And I appreciate that too.

Differentiation was my thing of 2024. And just that it's so fascinating that it's that other person is saying, you should feel this way because that would make sense to me and I want to make sense of the world. And so, I'm assuming that if I was in your shoes, this is how I would feel. It's wild when you really break it down that way versus how are you feeling? That's a lot easier. But then if the person expresses something, oh, I can't believe you think that way.

I'm not comfortable with you feeling that way. Yes, exactly. I've been throwing a math formula on it. Try to help somebody get through this 90% solid, maybe 10% flexible sense of self. I'm good. I'm okay. This is how I feel. This is what I think. So when somebody is saying, I can't believe you think that, or why don't you think this? Then I can say, well, that's adorable that you know how I should feel. Tell me more versus like our reactions, our big feelings. Okay.

Can we do a tiny bit of a speed run? There's a page in. So please everyone get the book because it's so good you have a part where you said how to interact while reading this book with a grieving child but do you want to go through any of your favorites there okay okay. Do you want me to read it? Yeah. I was sitting there thinking, I just want to read it all. I was going to make a joke and say, hey, can I just do a whole podcast on these?

And I'll just pretend that I came up with it. Because this is, I did one a long time ago that was how to teach your kids empathy. And I just, I think that you sum it up better than anything here. Maybe go through the highlights. Ask questions about what the child in the picture is feeling. So basically point out a picture, like, what is this kid feeling? And in that moment, they're going to tell you what they are feeling in a similar situation.

And that's the part where you say, oh, that's ridiculous, right? And you let them know that they're wrong. Shut them down. Okay. Tell them how they should feel. Yeah. Okay. Good. Good. This helps them directly connect to their heart and gives them a space to find their truth and truly see their own emotions without it hurting so much. Next idea. Ask them if there is a way you can be there for them through this hard time.

And I like that one. One of the best things I find even in trying to help someone be present and sit with the discomfort of someone else's emotions is thank you for sharing. How can I show up for you right now? Versus you should do this or because sometimes I had my friend Preston doing this. I was venting one time and he just said, man, that sounds hard. How can I show up for you? And I just felt like he did some voodoo trick on me. And I just said.

I guess you're kind of doing it. I think I just wanted to say it. And it just felt so validating. But if they say something like, well, I'm going to take you to a movie tonight and it's going to make you feel better. And you're like, I don't want to go anywhere. I actually plan on being in my jams all day.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We'll try to them feel better help you out but asking how yeah okay um ask about the person who they lost and tell them you are always there to talk about it when they want to okay this ashley that one i think that people are so afraid to talk about that one spoke to me so much because i think i often hear people say i didn't want to bring it up because i didn't want them to think about it if they weren't thinking

about it what do you say to that you know whenever someone opens up to me like I lost my son, and they start telling the story, I always say, what was his name? Oh, yeah. And I'm telling you, there's been so many people that just start tearing up like, oh, I haven't said his name in a while. Nobody's asked. They have been so focused on me losing my son that we kind of forget about the son that I lost.

So I think it's always better to ask because most people who have lost someone, if they're not in an avoidance moment, they might want to talk about it or at least acknowledge it. Or sometimes you almost like sit around in a room like, I wonder if everybody knows that I'm a hot mess. And then when they get to talk about it, they say, this is why I'm a hot mess, you know? Because I'm an opportunity to share why they think they're stuck inside themselves.

Well, and this is why, again, your book, it's a muse for me. I know it's for kids and people going through grief and loss, but even that part to me just spoke to, I think everybody has things going on and we want to be heard and understood. But then sometimes when somebody does start to be heard, it makes others uncomfortable and then they tell them what they should do about it. And so that's why I just think this speaks to all of this.

Also, something else I've heard a lot when I've shared my story or something, somebody walks up to me and they're like, you're so lucky your husband died. You can't imagine how hard it is to parent and you would have gotten divorced. And those kind of comments are never helpful. These hearts are so different. And the loss of divorce is so hard, but the loss of death for a child is so hard. Like, anyways, so moments like that helped inspire some questions.

Share memories and answer questions about the person who died. Even the hard ones to answer. Age-appropriate truth is a necessary part of a child's full healing.

And again, I could stop on every one of these, but I've had several sessions come to mind with people that when they tried to ask questions about maybe their dad who had passed away or something, and people in the family just telling them, let's not talk about that right now, or we'll talk about that some other time, and just ways that they just kind of kick that can down the road, and that messaging that it sends of that,

for some reason, we can't talk about this, So then maybe I shouldn't be feeling it or thinking it. And that's really difficult. I just love the whole message of it's okay to talk about these things. It will be uncomfortable, but that's okay. Yeah, for sure. Especially complex stories of how people die can be very uncomfortable. And with age-appropriate timing, that truth can be really healing for a kid who's always been like, something's not quite right.

Like the story doesn't quite add up. it's really helpful for them in the long run to have that discomfort conversation right now instead of holding it inside for so long actually i have to ask you have your kids all seen like the dateline or those kind of things a few of them have watched a few of the things that have come out and there was a time last year actually that my daughter sat me down and was like i need to know more i need to know and all five of them were like fine we

all want to know more so as they've become older i've never wanted to hold back on yeah the truth that helps set them free because even though we've focused on the good too and we still go and celebrate him because i want them to be connected to the good parts that they still have inside of them i don't ever want them to find something out they're like why wouldn't you have told us that why do we have to find that out somewhere else yeah that makes sense that does yeah i saw on your instagram

you and keith morrison do you do a decent keith morrison impression. Probably not he's kind of awesome though is he is he everything that you would hope he would be you know what he's been like well he was the first guy that interviewed me and it was supposed to be like an hour long and we sat there for three hours and he just bawled with me wow man bawled with me as the first time i had said the whole thing out loud too so i was in a crazy dark place but it was a really cool experience and then

well that picture's from that time but then we had another interview a couple of years ago and he's just, I just feel like he really actually cares when he's, I'd love that even more. Cause yeah, it's such a fan. I mean, so that's nice to hear really. Yeah. And I've had others that have been the complete opposite. So it's fun to, to see different ways people interview. So, okay, Ashley, I hate to say, but I think we're running low on time. So can we do one more?

Let's do one more. Which one do you want to do? communication is key stay connected to a hurting child they need to feel loved even on the days when their coping creates hard to love reactions peace is the goal bring calm to your interactions and build a safe place for them so they can catch their breath grief is not easy but you can be there for each other okay very brilliant way that you put that when their coping creates hard to love reactions

and you five kids now seven is that right okay do you ever have a day where there's a kid that is full or there's no hard to love reactions from kids? I don't think I've ever had one yet. Okay. So what's that like? How do you get through that? My approach is usually like, hey, I can see you're having a hard time. Do you want to talk about it? And some are like, yeah, I want to talk about it. And they spew and others are like, I don't want to talk right now.

But usually they come over and want to talk about it. That's on a good day. On a bad day, like, hey, you can't treat me like that. Go up to your room. You know, there's all ranges of parenting moments. But what my main goal is, is to make sure they know that they're loved. And I see embarrassment a lot. I have one daughter who's five right now. I saw her hitting her sister or something. And I looked over and she got embarrassed and she ran upstairs.

And my instincts told me just let her sit in her room, whatever. She's got to figure it out and calm herself down. But I could tell in my heart something else was wrong. And I went in her room and I picked her up and sat her on my lap. And I was like, did you know there's nothing in the whole world you could ever do that would make me stop loving you? And she just looked at me and I'm like, I'm not kidding. Like I saw you hit Kyler.

And that makes me sad because you're not protecting your sister because my job is to protect you and Kyler. So I need to make sure there's a safe place for both of you. And instead of being angry at the thing, the problem that we had, I'm like, what can we do differently? Let's look at this problem and what can we do differently? And she's like, I could have just asked her if I could have a turn. I was like, that would be perfect. Do you want to go talk to her about that?

Yeah. But other times when I've just kind of ignored it and let her go to her room and slammed the door. She was up there for an hour and I could hear her huffing and puffing, but she just needed to feel connected and that she was good enough to know. That's a great story. Yeah. I love it. Ashley, it's fun to talk to you again. I hope that we can not go another 80 episodes or so. That's on me. I can reach out sooner, but where can people find you? I'll put links all. What should people look for?

I mean, obviously one day a child's journey through grief and loss. Yeah. This is on Amazon. I have three other books on Amazon that are more about, It's basically my journal through the healing journey after the murder trial and things. Well, through the murder trial is the third one. And then themomentswestand.com is my website. And then on Instagram and Facebook, I'm more active on those.

And YouTube, The Moments We Stand. I haven't been doing as much on YouTube just because it's one more step that I haven't been taking. But always on Instagram, The Moments We Stand, and Facebook. Okay, I appreciate it. So good to see you. I'll put all the links. And then I would love to have you on again. You don't even have to write another book. We can just talk about something. Music.