Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special episode of a virtual couch podcast network production. I think I'm gonna have to work with that a little bit. You might be hearing this on the virtual couch or maybe waking up to narcissism, but welcome aboard to, I will call this a bonus episode of whatever it is that you're listening to right now. And before I get to today's topic, please go to TonyOverbay.com.
I've updated my website, sign up for the newsletter and follow me at virtual.couch on Instagram, at Virtual Couch on TikTok, and give me your questions, your comments, whether it's about parenting or marriage or your faith journey or faith crisis, emotional immaturity, you name it. Feel free to send that through the website, or you can email me directly at contact at TonyOverbay.com and bookmark Patreon.com slash Virtual Couch. So much coming in the not too distant future.
Let's get to today's episode. So the original plan, I was going to bring on a good friend of mine, Tricia Jameson. She is the host of the Q&A Files podcast to discuss an article that I found about relationships and trust. But if I am being completely honest, I can't even remember the specifics of that article now. And that is actually perfect because what ended up happening instead was so much more meaningful, so much more raw, organic, authentic, all of those wonderful therapy words.
The Q&A Files is a wonderful podcast that I actually co-host with Tricia, who is a life coach and a functional nutritionist, and her husband, Dr. Jeff, who is a family physician. And what we normally do is we take listener questions about, you name it, health, relationships, mental health, mental wellness. Really anything that sits at this intersection of all of our different areas of expertise. And while I love, I absolutely love doing the show. It's something that I look forward to every week.
I realized recently that I rarely talk about it on my own podcast on any of the shows. And so I'd wanted to change that to introduce my listeners to this other project that does bring me a whole lot of joy. It's so much fun. But sometimes I think the most powerful conversations happen when you set aside your planned agenda.
And as Tricia and I started talking, we found ourselves diving deep into her personal journey from being a very young runner whose golf professional father made her give up a running scholarship to play golf instead, to then finding her voice as a speaker and a coach who now helps others navigate their own past to emotional health, to mental well-being, and we explored what it means to heal from emotional immaturity.
How we learn to validate ourselves rather than constantly seeking it from others, and then this delicate balance, I think, of maintaining hope while you're still acknowledging pain about things that you've been through in your life.
What I had initially thought would be a very structured discussion about an article grew into this raw, honest conversation about growth and about finding our authentic selves and about how we use our own healing journeys to help others and even what that can bring up in us as we try to help others. It turned into a very perfect example of what we do on the Q&A files. We bring our different perspectives and we bring all of our personal experiences.
Into the podcast to help people see their own challenges in new ways. Because we acknowledge often that we are just giving our perspectives and each of us have different ones on someone else's problem or challenge or question. So I may have failed at my original mission of doing a neat and tidy episode review of a Psychology Today article with Tricia. I think that we ended up with something way more valuable.
And I hope that by the end of this conversation, that you'll not only take away some insights about your own journey of growth and healing and acknowledging that you can fit pain in with some good experiences, but then you'll also want to join us over at the Q&A files. I'll have all the links in the show notes where these kind of deep and meaningful and I think fun discussions happen every week. Let me take you to this conversation with Tricia.
Oh, and you are going to hear me talk about a situation with Facebook Marketplace that was still an unresolved mystery at the time of this recording. So please stay tuned until the end of the episode where I will pop back on with an update. It does not necessarily show the very best version of myself because it takes a very interesting turn that I never saw coming.
So with that said, let's get to this interview with Tricia Jameson, where we're going to jump in and you're going to hear the intro to the Q&A files and Tricia taking over from there. Take it away, Tricia. Music. Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the ultimate health and wellness playground. I'm your host, Tricia Jameson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and lifestyle practitioner ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries.
Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention, to nutrition, exercise, mental health, and building strong relationships, all spiced with diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health, packed with insights, and a twist of fun. Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions and lead to a brighter you.
Tricia Jameson, welcome to both the virtual couch and I think waking up to narcissism and while we're at it, maybe love ADHD, murder on the couch, the mind, the mirror, me. I might run this everywhere. How are you doing? There you go. And a Q&A Files as well. Okay. And let's jump right into there. So Tricia and her husband, Jeff, are, I was going to say my co-host. I think I'm your co-host. I feel like you're the chief... But I didn't want to say bottle washer. That's what comes out next.
But you're the main host of a podcast that I'm involved in that I really enjoy called The Q&A File. So maybe first talk about that and then we'll get to today's topic. Yeah. So we have listeners that will send in any kind of question on medicine. So my husband, Jeff Jamison, he's a family physician. I'm a functional nutritionist practitioner and a life coach. And then we've got Tony, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist. And so all three of us have a lot to cover.
And so we'll have people that will come in and ask all kinds of questions from health, mental health to relationships, any kind of nutrition, exercise, medicine, anything like that. And it's just been a lot of fun. It's been so fun to have one. And it's funny, I just started smiling because, yeah, I think I've tried to, you've mentioned things like, oh, don't eat too much candy. So you'll give some like whatever. Right.
Right. And then, or maybe we need to sleep. Dr. Jeff will say, but then we'll also have like a mental health thing. And I really like that angle of, I think when we were first kicking it around before we started recording it, it just, I liked the idea of here's a thing that we're going to talk about and here are the three different angles. And sometimes we're fairly similar with what we say and other times, not so much. And that's the whole idea is we want to have different perspectives.
So I think it's been really fun. And yeah, sometimes we get to sit in our discomfort. Yes. You're not agreeing with me. I know. Right. And that one's a funny one too. And then every time we start, you ask for celebrations of what's gone well. No, I'm not. And so do you have a celebration? What's been going on well in your life this week? Oh, there you go. Yeah, here we go. Yeah. my celebration is we. Are literally a week away from moving. And it's been all summer and spring.
It's taken every ounce of energy we've had. Yeah. And going from a much bigger home to a very much smaller home has been quite a process, getting rid of everything. And yeah, it makes you realize in 21 years, all the things that you require, especially from six kids, because we have a lot of stuff from our kids. Yeah. They have left and we have to worry about their things as well as our own.
But yeah, this is so not the topic today. And I know we're not going to end up with enough time, but have you guys tried to sell anything on Facebook marketplace? You know, it's really funny because we were going to sell our piano. We had a grand piano, Kauai, and I think we had it up. I think we got it for 10 grand years ago, long time ago. Let's go through all of our kids and playing piano, but we put it on Facebook marketplace and they, somebody had come in with $4,000 that they had offered.
And we're like, I said, you know, I wonder what it's worth. Let me just check and see what it's worth. So we had someone come out and did an appraisal on it. Guess what it was worth. I've seen antiques roadshow before, like a hundred grand. No, no, no, no. Well, no, it's going to be $29,000. Oh, dang. Okay. I know. No. So, I mean, we were thinking about selling it for four and then we find out that it's worth a whole lot more. And so that was fun. But yeah. Are you taking it with you?
No, I think we're just going to get it all shined up and we'll probably then sell it. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. Now that we know what it's worth and we've got papers for it and everything. So it's kind of cool. So the only reason I mentioned that is when we were moving the psychology of Facebook marketplace, I'm literally writing a podcast episode on it because it's insane. You try to sell something and then you can hit a little thing that says, is it still available?
So you get 10 different people that says, is it available? And at first the rookie in me, I respond to him as if, these people are very, very interested in my stuff. And then they don't follow up or then, okay, I'll be by, can you hold it? Sure. And then they don't show up and they don't show up and it's just mind blowing. But then we were going to buy something, this mirror for the garage and we're on the way over.
We tell the guy, we'll take it. And then almost there. And he says, Hey, I, sorry, I sold it to somebody else. And so then I go back home and I want one. So all of a sudden I'm clicking, is this available? Is this available? Is this available to everybody? And all of a sudden I'm doing it. And so then when somebody finally responds, I don't go back and say to the other eight people, hey, I think I found one. So then, and I realized, oh, I'm just as guilty.
And then I've got a whole tangent, which is for another day, but about when people are in the world of online dating, when they're getting back out there after relationships or younger people, and there's so much ghosting. And I just thought, oh, it's the same thing. You swipe on somebody and you're basically saying, hey, is this still available? Is this still available? And then they find the person that they're going to go to see if that's a good mirror.
And then they don't tell all the other people that, hey, I think I'm going to date this person. I think I'm on to something. I think you are too. Okay. You need to keep on on that train of thought. Yeah. Man, this is not the topic today, but it's so fun to just talk about this. So then I make a post because we have one bookshelf left and that we're trying to get rid of on Facebook Marketplace in Arizona to the point where I'm trying to give it away.
And even then people are saying, I'll be right by and they don't show up. I don't hear from them again. So I make a hilarious post about it. And then I basically lay out the, I want to do a podcast about this. And I post it on this Facebook page in the city in Arizona that I live in now. And then the next morning, I thank goodness I'd forgotten about it.
Because the reason I say thank goodness is back in my days of wanting nothing but validation, I would have been checking every five minutes to see if somebody thought it was hilarious or fun or reacted to it. And so I forgot. And then I wake up the next day and nobody's responded. So I think, oh man, I really did care more than I thought. Well, then I go look at the notifications and it's nowhere to be found. As a matter of fact, the whole page is gone and it was thousands of people.
So yes, I found myself just thinking, okay, did I get blocked?
What just happened? right and i don't know that is the mystery of facebook marketplace so did you finally take it to goodwill no because i i spent too much time writing a hilarious post i'm gonna post it somewhere i gotta find some you just gotta keep it i do i know probably all right so that is that is not what we're talking about today the reason i asked trisha to come on today is i wait a minute yes what's your what is your celebration oh i did not plan
one i know i'm really enjoying our grandson. He has little dimples and he smiles and laughs and I can get him to smile at me all the time. It's amazing. And then I get to walk away when he starts to cry. And you hear about that, how fun that is. And it really is. So, I'm enjoying that. We're talking about virtual couch and waking up to narcissism today. Trisha is a part of the women's group that I have that is part of waking up to narcissism for women who are in relationships with narcissistic.
I always say fill in the blank. And I feel like it's some old timer going that narcissistic fill in the blank, but it's, it can be a spouse. It can be a parent. It can be a, an adult child. It can be a boss. It can be a sibling. Yeah. Anything. And so, and Tricia is a very positive person, almost to the point where I think when we started the group, we've talked about this a little bit where maybe everyone isn't always excited about that positivity, but I really do appreciate it.
And you've really found a nice place there and help a lot of people, I don't know, raise their emotional baselines and tap into their values and do the things that help them. And that's my really long-winded way also of saying very positive. Trish is an incredibly positive human being. I am a couples therapist now for almost 20 years. I don't know, 1,600, 1,700 couples. I love it.
But a lot of the population I work with is the emotionally immature or heading toward the world of narcissistic traits and tendencies. And so, that isn't the only people I work with. Half of my clientele when I'm seeing 20, 25 couples a week are people that didn't know what they didn't know. They get the tools. It's a little bit uncomfortable. and then they grow together and they live happily ever after. It takes a little bit more time than that.
But a lot of who I work with are the people that, yeah, both are both. I mean, we're all emotionally immature until we're not. That's what I like to say. And so, then we come into relationships and then we're codependent and we're enmeshed and we're trying to figure ourselves out.
And sometimes somebody has had enough of their own wounding from childhood that the more that one person gets healthy or heals, the other person kind of pushes even harder against that because they need that person to stay back in this enmeshment or else all of a sudden they're exposed. And it's a lot easier to blame your spouse for everything than to. See your spouse heal, which you always, we think, no, I want them to be the best version of themselves.
But then sometimes when that person starts to differentiate and evolve, it leaves the partner who it was a whole lot easier to say, well, it's your fault to now the light shines on them and they have to do their own work. So, there are times where then that doesn't go so well. And the whole marriage therapy piece is exposing the incredible immaturity in one partner. And then And it's giving the other partner more clarity.
And that will often, it's such a long one away for me to say, might lead to divorce. Because even as a marriage therapist, I still feel like my hope is that I can save every marriage. But there are people that are in unhealthy relationships and it zaps their whole sense of self. And so, then I noticed this article called How to Build Trust in a Relationship. And then as I was reading them, I was knocking all of them down.
So, then I reached out to Trisha and I said, hey, I think I got an idea for podcasts. Can you come on and give the positive spin to these? And I'm going to acknowledge that I do know that there is a positive spin, positive way, but I'm going to give the narcissistic slant. Trisha, how do you feel about that? I think that this is going to be great. Well, and there's in our group, there was a really good post and there's an account on Instagram that I really
enjoy. It's called The Secure Relationship. And the person, her name's Julie Menino, and she has an amazing book that I bought called Secure Love. And so, I really like it. And especially because the account itself has a lot of cartoons and I like cartoons. Well, there you go. Right? I'm going to have that. Yeah. But somebody in our group posted this and it says a new perspective. And the post, it has two little birds on a couch and then another bird in a chair.
And one says, my partner is a selfish narcissist. The other one says, my partner is irrational, emotionally unstable, and it's borderline personality disorder. And so, I think those are the two birds that are in a relationship. The other bird who's a therapist says, maybe that's true, but another option to consider is. And then the couple birds cut back in and no, my partner's a selfish narcissist. And then the bird as a couples therapist says, that's an option.
And when you don't have any other way to make sense of the problem, that can feel better than not knowing or blaming yourself. But before you attempt to make that diagnosis, let's consider another option. Maybe your partner hasn't yet learned how to access and express emotions. And of course, it hits you as cold and distant. And then Julie goes on to give a really nice explanation of what you see often and couples therapy.
But the people I know that some of the people in the group have taken a little bit of, I don't want to necessarily say offense to that, but it can feel really invalidating when you are starting to maybe even wake up to your own immaturity or definitely the immaturity in the relationship and you start to grow and use the tools and the other person. Pushes even harder against those. And I know that we've also had some, man, I apologize, Trisha, I'm just on a roll here.
But I know that we've also talked about in the group where if you go to a therapist that doesn't understand the dynamics of this kind of a relationship, that they can just be really, really validating to the more emotionally immature or person with the more narcissistic traits and tendencies, and that only gives them more fuel. And then the person that I identify as the pathologically kind leaves there feeling completely gaslit and hopeless.
And so, I just think this is a bit of a, there's a lot going on here. And so, first of all, yeah, your thoughts before we get to the article. So, my thought, first of all, is I think it's imperative to validate both. Because like in my situation, I grew up with a father that was definitely a narcissist, like in all. We've talked about that a lot. Yeah. Alcoholic. Like he was a golf professional and every part of his life was perfect and he wanted perfect kids.
And yeah, but I was the last number four and I played golf. And so he wanted me to be the golfer. Well, I didn't want to play golf. And so it led to a lot of contention because I was a people pleaser. I wanted to make sure that I kept the peace. And so I basically, even though I love to do other things, like I was a runner, did very well in running, but to keep the peace, I tried to follow what he wanted me to do and not pursue my own happiness.
So tell that one story where you had one where you even felt like he had told you, right, that if you do a certain thing or then you don't, was it that you could run or you don't have to play golf and then that he wasn't, he didn't follow through. Yes. So in high school, I actually had a high school record that I kept for 33 years, but I got a scholarship in running. And early on in when I was in high school, my dad said, okay, well, you can run.
But when you go to college, you're going to play college golf. And so I thought I'm going to work so hard to show him that I'm going to be the best runner I could possibly be. And for sure, he will understand where my heart is. And it's not golf. And sure enough, graduation day, I got received this amazing scholarship and from running. And he looked at that and he says, throw it away. So I had to throw it away and went on to play college golf at BYU.
He did every moment of it. Did you, man, right? I did because I, where my dorm was, I actually overlooked the track. Wow. And I got to see these amazing athletes running around the track and doing all the things that I wanted to do so badly. And so, yeah, it was really painful, but... So that was my life. So it was easy to then marry into a relationship that continued that journey for me.
And until I grew up and learned how to think for myself and to recognize some of my own behaviors that were creating the enmeshment and how to remove myself or to kind of take a look. And from a bird's eye view and be able to see, oh my gosh, this is what I'm involved in. And until you learn those tools. And thankfully, my husband at the time, he didn't know either.
He didn't know what he was doing, but it was just a natural thing for both of us because the way he grew up, we talked to Jeff and I talked about this on our last podcast, actually, and you weren't on there, Tony. So, this will be a great segue here for those that want to listen to that one. But, you know, we just talk about how we grew up, kind of formulated those characteristic traits within each of us and how we continued down that road as unhealthy as it was.
And so we were able to both take a look at that and recognize, wait a minute, this is not a healthy relationship. What do we want to do different? And, you know, he probably is an unicorn because he has a great desire to change. Is he perfect? No. Am I perfect? Absolutely not. But we work hard together to continue to change and grow in ways that are going to propel us in a positive direction.
I appreciate that so much. And this is the funny thing when Trish and I talk, when we're just like preparing for a podcast or just talking about the group or anything. Trish is so positive that I think today I want to say we're giving each other permission to yeah, but one another. So, yeah. So here's your, where's your, yeah, but go ahead.
That was a good segue. But it's, it's even when you said both of both people need to be validated and it's like they do, but it's interesting because I think that a therapist that doesn't recognize emotional immaturity is not only validating because that's the, and I love this one dealing with the emotionally mature is that they're used to either being agreed with or disagreed with. And if they're agreed with, all is well. If they're disagreed with, well, then you obviously don't understand.
And now it's almost like it's second nature to now put you in the one down position. Well, I didn't say that. Or I can't believe you don't understand that. Or, well, that's not the way I know it. And I call that, it's not just narcissistic fuel, but you're giving them a run at confabulation gym. It's like, oh, yeah, please tell me I'm wrong because then I know what to do with that.
And so then I do agree that validation, but it can be like, oh, well, I can understand if that's how you feel that then it seems like that's all you can do. The example I get with this one often is if I get the, I know I was going to say the narcissist because it's a mouthful to say extremely emotionally mature person with narcissistic traits and tendencies all the way up to narcissistic personality disorder one time.
But so, the narcissist though, again, they truthfully aren't being curious about maybe their spouse's experience. They want to convince the therapist most of the time that.
No, if you understand what I know, then you will join me and we will aggressively triangulate against my spouse and then they will finally understand yeah yeah right or him wrong depending on who the right i'm just thinking our group no i totally i was gonna say but i get enough feedback sometimes like it's not always the guy it's not always like okay well.
Yeah but in that scenario though it's and in that point i feel like i'm trying to to model to the pathologically kind person that if that is how that person feels then i can understand why they're frustrated. That's that version of validation. I'm good with, but what you'll hear then is like, oh, Tony agreed with me. Well, no, Tony didn't disagree with you. So, then you assume if it's not a disagreement, because that's part of that black or white thinking, then it's an agreement.
So, I love that right out of the gate when you're saying they both need to be validated. I'm like, yeah, and, but that validation is even something that looks different. So, there's a part of me that wants to, honestly, do you have a yeah, but to that? Well, my thought when I made that comment was when we were going through some of those discomforts that we had to sit in and recognize our own behaviors that we were, whether it's we were focusing on what we wanted.
Or defending our egos or any of that. Right. But I think I'm the, I'm more of the kind person and he was, he's a physician. He, and he talks about that, you know, how he. They have a lot of recognition and they have to, there's a lot of responsibility they have. They're saving lives and making hard decisions. And so when he comes home and he would act a lot like that with me, and I didn't know how to stand up for myself at the time.
And sometimes his tone would be really harsh and I'm not like that at all. And so he has learned how to talk to me in a way that doesn't hurt my feelings. And I've had to talk to him in a way that I'm way more direct. So I guess when I was talking about validating, it's we're validating each other's position and recognizing- Even if there's a silly, is what we're saying. Yes, even if there's silly, right. And so it's focusing on the purpose, the forward motion, what is it that we
both want? And sometimes it's messy in between. But when you've got someone that's really working towards having a better, healthier relationship, that's the validation. I don't necessarily mean the validating of someone that is- Like their opinion. That means every opinion that comes out of their mouth. Right. Yeah. You know, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about somebody that really is trying and is still making mistakes for sure.
We both do. but now really Tony utilizing your four pillars has been the biggest game changer for us and just really and we don't even think about it anymore it's just their second nature and I we never thought we'd get to that place where we didn't even have to think about it it just is something that we just kind of fall into and honestly I feel so validated from that because that whole process of becoming I think people don't how can you understand that
if you don't If you haven't experienced it and it is, we don't know, we don't know, we know, we don't do it very often. Then we start doing it more than we don't. And then it just is, you become, and that is, it's amazing. Well, and when you're in a healthy relationship, you want to validate your partner. And so being part of that process, that's what we do. We do validate, we're listening, we're being curious, we're asking those questions.
We're, you know, we're not shying away from each other. We are leaning in. We're doing all the things that really make a relationship what you're hoping it to be. When you look at how far we've come. It's just like literally night and day. So it's been a tremendous amount of work and we work out it every day. But yeah, that's the validation piece. Okay. And here's what I like. So we're yes anding, we're not yeah butting.
So what is interesting is if I can share that story of early on in the group. And I remember this where when I think it seemed like you were a little bit frustrated with how some of the reactions of people were when you were trying to insert that positive or hey, maybe there is a chance for things to change. And it is because you guys did, you were able to change and that was pretty profound.
And I remember you saying to me, it was a, to me, it seemed like a really profound moment where I think I was saying, well, I'm saying this is the population I'm working with that they're here, that they're, they've been trying to get this change for a long time. And it seems like the harder they try, most of the time it seems to get worse because the immature person is so immature that they need that person back in that role that they've been playing.
And so then I think at one point, if you remember this, you might've said, how many people have you seen that? I don't know. Do you remember this conversation? Oh, yes. Okay. And I was kind of like, oh, actually, not really anybody at that point. Maybe like just one. Yeah. And that was like. I think at the time you had three. Okay. Three people that had really made that shift. And then you came back and you said, ah, maybe it's just two now. Yeah. Yeah.
And I just mean that with this is, and it goes back to that secure attached relationship Instagram post where the couples therapist in me would love to help everyone save their relationship. And you do have the tools because you've been doing it for a long time and you're offering those. But then if somebody is incredibly immature, every tool is a weapon. No. And they, so they take that and then they're like, you're not for pillaring
me. Not, oh, I need to learn the four pillars or in this world of differentiation, I just see this happen over, I'm going to sound dramatic over and over. But if everything is a me thing, which has been so empowering for me for differentiation, why do I need this person to know? Why do I need this person to calm down? Why am I feeling this way about this situation? But then that immature person takes it and they're saying, oh, so that's a you thing.
So, it gets out of their discomfort. They're like, well, you don't like the way I talk? That's a you thing. Instead of you don't like the way I talk, I need to self-confront. Am I saying something in a harsh way? So, I think that's what's so interesting is, and you do the couples therapy as well. So, I'm not trying to discount that. And it's been very fascinating too, because I've been working with several women in the group.
And, you know, at first, I think that they find that it's a lot different. Spouse. And then as we go through the experience of just learning new tools and helping them understand that there's different roles to play, then they start to go, oh, wow. Okay. So I do have a role in this. What is my role? What can I do different? What choices do I have? And so I think sometimes it's allowing them to recognize that there's so many choices.
But when you've got a spouse that is trying to move forward and trying to do those things and sometimes gray rocking and doing all those things that you would normally would do with somebody that is definitely in a different space doesn't work because then when the spouse is doing the same thing that the wife is doing and then they're like well you're stonewalling me and they call it other so it's not the same, you can't do the same actions and expect these results because they are now
learning and growing in a way that they can move together because they both have the desire, even when things are messy. And a lot of times it's like, well, you know, I've got a lot of triggers from past experiences. And so it's learning how to stay present, to stay in that space. Yeah. It's 90 seconds whenever there's an emotion for that, those chemicals to go through and to flood through your body.
You get to decide, okay, so am I going to stay in critter brain, the emotional part of my brain and react poorly? Or am I going to ask myself some questions, get my CEO, my prefrontal cortex back online so I can think through this and recognize, is he trying to hurt me? What's happening right now? And so then when you can start asking yourself some questions, then you can calm down and And you can be curious and ask, okay, so what did you mean by that comment?
Or, you know, help me understand where you're coming from. And then have that dialogue instead of it being such an affront. Yeah. What I so appreciate about this and when we talk about this is because you've had some experiences where you've been able to learn that and you know it. You are speaking from a place of integrity with that. You're not just saying this is an idea I've heard about. So, that will help people, I think, get through it faster.
And then, but I think even as you're saying that, I know that this is kind of almost back to that post again, that people that aren't there still feel so unheard that if you say that stuff too early, then they're just thinking, you don't understand. It is. And I think that's one of the things I think we, yeah, we realized that really well. And that's why I, again, I make the joke all the time that I missed the day of therapy school where you're not supposed to work like life coaches.
Cause I really think that shows right there where you can help say, Hey, this is where we need to get to. And I do feel like more of what I'm used to doing is saying, where do you want to go? Because I think they want to go there. And most people do. But then it's like, it's scary. And how do I do it? And so then I love saying the... And then if you don't, if you're unable to do what you want to do or
what maybe a good life coach is guiding you toward, then I can work with that. Let's now look at that. But the fact that you can speak it because... And this is a current fixation of mine because I'm realizing that as I'm learning more about being differentiated and I'm sitting with that discomfort and I'm self-soothing that I can express myself from a place of integrity as it grounded. And it turns out I don't need the validation. It doesn't rattle me.
So, now all of a sudden, I want to talk about it. And I think about I can talk about being very, very emotionally immature, recovering from that or having ADHD or having this cure and the anxious attachment or those sort of things. And I've realized now that man, if you have not experienced it, I have a hard time talking about eating disorders because I really don't know what that's like. I'm not even trying to insert a joke in here.
But right, so that's where I think you can do a lot of good, very powerful because you really have spoken to this or have experienced some of these things that you're teaching, but people still just want to push that, don't they? Oh, yes. And they push hard. Yeah. And sometimes it is. I'm in this group And I volunteer all my time and I put classes together and sometimes I have handouts and do all fun things. You do. You're very fancy with that. But then it's, man, I'm here for them.
I'm here to give them hope and have something potentially to hold on to. And sometimes they don't want that. They want to just take time to feel all the feelings and go through that process. and that's imperative. You have to. I had to go through all that. I had to, and it was messy. And you know, Tony, it was messy. It was ugly. And it was, but now being on the other side of that, I can share that it gets better and it's brighter and a sunnier day.
And you have opportunities that you may not see at the time when you're just so full of misery and despair. And so that's what I'm trying to help. Pull them through and help them see, you know what it does. There's so much more that you can see and feel and be part of and be present and come with me.
Yeah. And I appreciate, of course, when you shared that I'd been there with you and we can even edit that out or, but I'm grateful for that because that's why I want to just say, it's like, man, you know what you're talking about. Maybe even when I'm going to get to the things for the article is fun though.
Cause I want to ask you, cause you said something a little earlier that when you were saying, and I love it so much where my whole mission with the Waking Up to Narcissim podcast was trying to say, okay, narcissism is what, three to 5% of the population. We throw it around like it's 70, 80%, but let's start talking about we're all emotionally immature because then it's easier to take ownership of my part.
And then I can maybe look across the street there and I can acknowledge, okay, I wanted to just blame them because that, then I wouldn't have to maybe acknowledge what I've been doing. And so, it sounds like you were saying a little earlier there that, yeah, once you get to that different place, you can see your own part. Is that what you're saying? Parts that I've played. Absolutely. How hard is that? Is that hard? Because that's a powerful moment when I see that in a session.
So, this is interesting. I've always grown up that everything's my fault. So, it actually wasn't a hard thing for me at all. Not a leap. Not a leap. Yeah. And I think when it was easy for Jeff, because I would apologize all the time and I recognize all the things that, you know, and I would, even if things weren't my fault, just to keep the peace, I would make it my fault or be responsible for it just to allow, just to keep the status quo.
And the more that I fell into that trap, then I. As I'm married and I'm teaching all these ridiculous concepts to my poor children who now have had to work with undoing a lot of things, because the last thing you want to do is you want your children to be empowered. You want them to feel of your strength, not to watch you be pummeled and just being treated poorly at times.
And I think that it definitely, I had that personality that I always, I seem to be, at the time, I felt like I did a great job being in the shadows and just making everybody else shine. And I've done that my whole life. I would just be in the background, but boy, I worked so hard for the person that whatever it was. And so, for Jeff, I made him shine. And I think the thing that I had to recognize is not everything's my fault. Yes.
And that I had to be okay with allowing other people to take responsibility. Yeah. So, that might sound really weird. Oh, it sounds powerful. Look at the golf example, even right there. I've never looked at it that way of that you made your dad look good because he could say that he has a college golf person on a scholarship. And he did not want, he didn't want to say, I have somebody running because he was a golfer. So that was, yeah.
I hadn't thought of it quite like that. And what's funny, I hadn't either, cause my son, Jake, he got this full ride basketball scholarship and played a year. And then he decided that he didn't want to do it anymore. Actually, ironically, to play golf, pursue golf. But when he did that, I was really learning a lot about differentiation. And I realized how quickly I wanted to say, man, bud, but I had adjusted my therapy schedule so that I could go to the games. I could go on the road trips.
I could work from hotels, I was looking forward and I really enjoyed saying, I have a college basketball playing son. It's wild because I wanted to do that growing up. Yeah, I know. I was having a moment there on your behalf when you're saying, because that was you doing it for somebody else. And I was grateful that he didn't say that's a you problem, bro. But I mean, basically he didn't, he had been hopefully raised well enough where he just said, I don't want to do this anymore.
And I was so proud of him. Yeah. Well, good for him. See, and I didn't have that strength at the time. And now Jeff, he's always maintained, I want you to do whatever you want to do and go live your dreams. And he's been supportive of that. But I think I have held myself back because we're living his dream. He's a physician.
I don't have room or there's no time for me to pursue any of my goals because, and I would never change being at home and being with my kids because that has been the most fulfilling thing that I could ever do. And I have loved every minute of it. But at the time, it was like, I don't have the confidence to do anything different. And I was definitely confident in being a mom and all those things as a mom. And I, like I said, loved every minute of it.
But then there was a time I had that opportunity to go back to school, to learn, to credentialed in lots of different areas. And it has made such a difference in me and who I've become and who I am continuing to become. And it's just been, it's been pretty exciting. And yeah, to stand up by myself sometimes. And it's funny is I love to speak. Yeah. And which is interesting because most people that they don't, they're like terrified. But to stand up, I like become a different person.
And i love that i love that i can just be someone else and even though i'm me and i'm sharing my own stories is i don't know there's just something that overtakes me that i just love yeah i thought about that was so much because i really i also love speaking i've done it a bunch too and i think i've wondered that because i know that i've worked with people that are actors that people that are politicians people are that they put on almost this false front and
then you can sometimes in a good therapy setting, get them to acknowledge that, oh, that's the false self. It's like acknowledging the mask they get to wear. But I've wondered before about, oh, I think that I just like validation a lot. Although at the point where then I finally found myself in therapy and really loving everything about it. Now I realize, oh, now that I'm okay, I don't want the validation.
And I remember early on, even in the podcast, I wanted nothing more than to get the email saying, And this is great. And now you'll go back a few years and now it's, I don't like I'm, because I'm okay now. And I think that's been an interesting shift, but it's also caused me to almost not, I still love speaking and I'll do it any chance I get. But I think I used to be almost aggressively looking for opportunities to do it where now if I'm given an opportunity, I'll do it in a heartbeat.
And so I've almost felt that internal shift of I'm good now. So I would love to share my talents, my experience, where before it's, I think I'll feel better if I can go talk to people and they tell me I'm awesome. Okay. Yeah. I can appreciate that. I started to really, there was a woman by the name, her name's Sherry Dew. And she like, I don't know. I remember hearing her when I was about 12 years old and she would just incorporated some really fun stories, very inspiring.
And I thought I wanted to speak like her. Yeah. And she just planted the seed inside of me that, I don't know, there was just something about her presence and her positivity and her fun and just her in-depth wisdom that just really gravitated towards. But this will be, I've been asked to speak again at the Women's Leadership Conference in November. That's awesome. Yeah, in Charleston. I'm excited about that. So, that will be my, I think that will be my third one.
But those are experiences that I would normally I, with my personality, be really nervous to do, but I look so forward to it. Okay, Tricia, can I, because I know I've got a client in five minutes and I don't want to end this as abruptly as we're going to have to, but when you just brought that up, I have to tell a funny story because I watched you speak at the one, what was the one in Washington? Is that the ship conference? It was in Louisville. Louisville. Oh, the one that was online?
Okay. My bad. Watch me edit this out. I really won't, but I was about to say, oh, the one in Louisville, but it was really funny because Tricia let me know about it and i i was like oh i'd love to see that happen but then you were keynoting that one and you were telling me that some of the former people that a keynote were like the ceo of it's like meg whitman or these people like that and you were joking right about they're gonna find and say oh our bad we didn't mean for
you to be the keynote that was funny but then you got there and you were the real keynote you did a great job that was fun yeah yeah okay. So I might end up taking 10 minutes and speed running through the 15 things of tomorrow morning before I record an intro. But thanks so much for taking the time. I think this was really powerful to hear about that healing journey, a little bit of the differences between therapist, coach, and then everybody go check out the Q&A files.
I'll put the links in the show notes. And then one of these days, I think I've been promising to run a bonus episode on the virtual couch for, I don't know, a couple of years now, it seems like, of the Q&A files. So I need to run one of those as well. I think we've got a couple of them.
Yeah you've even sent me the audio i think that yeah i think they're fun but please everybody go check that out trisha jameson tell dr jeff he missed a good one hey everybody all right i'm jumping back in here with a facebook marketplace update that i had promised i hope that you enjoyed that episode with trisha and please go and subscribe to the q a files okay maybe not my finest moment but you know how in the episode i was talking about my mysterious disappearing post and I
wondered if I had been blocked. Well, mystery solved. And it's actually kind of funny now, six months later, it turns out that I had been banned from my neighborhood Facebook group. And I have to admit that revelation did a quick number on me at the time, because in all my years, I don't think that I've ever been banned from anything in my life.
And I think it's almost comical now, especially since I had completely forgotten about this entire experience until I was literally editing this episode of this conversation with Tricia. And I think as a therapist, I often talk about how time can give us perspective on things that feel momentarily very overwhelming.
And I think this is such a perfect example. Something that felt surprisingly impactful in the moment has become honestly nothing more than a pretty amusing anecdote half a year later. So it's a nice reminder that sometimes the things that throw us off balance in the moment don't actually deserve the mental real estate that we give them. With that said, however, I do want to now share with you the letter that I posted in my neighborhood group.
So to set the stage, I had been in this neighborhood group just reading the comments for a while. I probably had liked a few things. I don't know if I had ever really commented on anything. And when I do read this and this is where I want to be so raw, I think I was seeking a little bit of validation. I think I wanted to say, hey, everybody, I'm new here and I would like some validation, please, because I just moved from a place that I've been for over 30 years where people knew who I was.
So here's the post. Hey neighbors, first, here's a bookshelf, and so I included a picture, that I would like to give to a wonderful home for free. The shelves are adjustable and the measurements are 84 by 48 by 14. That's all you need to know about the bookshelf. Speak up in the comments below. First in line, you can have it.
Now, with that out of the way, I have a much larger purpose with this post that has to do with the aforementioned bookshelf and the very platform that we're communicating on, and I could use your help. I'm now working on a podcast episode about the psychology of Facebook Marketplace. If that is of interest, well then please read on. Backstory. I'm a marriage and family therapist who recently moved to Arizona after 30 plus years in our previous home in Northern California.
As I am learning, it is often the case we brought along things we realized we didn't need when we got here. This experience led me down a fascinating rabbit hole, the psychology of Facebook Marketplace. My Facebook Marketplace baptism by fire came when preparing to move. It took over 50 messages across a dozen people to give away my piano.
Okay, technically we sold it for $1 and I learned that pianos aren't the greatest way to cut your teeth in the Facebook Marketplace arena because they are heavy and will need to be retuned, etc.
The spectacle was something to behold. People setting appointments only to ghosts, wanting a video of it making sound when you hit the keys, asking if I can verify if all 52 keys responded at a specific rate, others wanting to trade, and one person trying to pick a fight because I wouldn't pay him to haul it off. The amount of time and emotional calories spent was truly epic. We hope things might be different here in Arizona. At first, it seemed promising.
Someone actually contacted me. We exchanged messages. They showed up, bought what we agreed, and even took extra items. But just like that, we were back to what we call in my profession, a trauma bond or intermittent reinforcement. Facebook marketplace gives you the thrill of a sale along with the frustration of being ghosted. The thing that punishes you also gives you the reward. So when you're feeling punished, you naturally want to turn to the punisher to make things better.
Other examples are our phones. As we moved here in mid-March, I think the weather here does the same thing. And don't get me started on the, is this still available messages for listings with multiple items, 10 things listed. Is this still available? I got to the point where I thought I was being rude when I'd reply with yes, only to find out that nobody was responding to the messages regardless of what I said or did.
I spent more time than I care to admit answering questions and holding items for no-shows. We've even been on the receiving end. On my way to pick up a piece of gym equipment where I didn't even try to talk the seller down on price, I got a text about 10 minutes out and he said, sorry, I decided to sell it to a friend. That was the first piece of this particular gym equipment that I had attempted to purchase.
So I didn't even hit the, is this still available button? I just went in and said, okay, we'll take it Venmo. Okay. So all of a sudden I'm now determined to find another piece of that same gym equipment. So then I see one and okay, I see another and another. So what do I do? I start happy clicking. Is this available? Is this available? And before I knew it, I wasn't even sure whom or where all the places I clicked that button were on one occasion. I thought, Oh, I really liked this one.
And I clicked on it and there was my message to the seller. I'd already clicked. Is this still available? In his book, Atomic Habits, James Clear says, it is the anticipation of a reward, not the fulfillment of it that gets us to take action. The greater the anticipation, the greater the dopamine spike. Combine this with the concept of a trauma bond and you've got something that could almost be diagnosed as an addiction.
And shameless plug, I think here's where I went wrong. While I do now work with more couples and people struggling with their own emotional maturity, I spent over a decade working primarily with people and their unhealthy coping mechanisms, addictions, and impulse and compulsive behaviors. I'm preparing a podcast episode about this topic for my mental health podcast, The Virtual Couch. It's been around for almost a decade with over 400 episodes,
10 million downloads. Holy cow, I was so looking for validation. And so I say, if you're still with me, I would love to hear about your Facebook marketplace experiences, your seller experiences, your buying experiences. And again, yes, I'm looking for these stories to add a bit of humor to the podcast. If you decide to share, I'll assume you're okay with me sharing on the podcast. I won't use your name. You're also welcome to share a story and let me know if you prefer it to not be on the show.
Please share them in your comments or direct message me. Oh, and if anybody wants a bookshelf, I'll give you a dollar to take it off my hands because it'll make for a great ending to the episode. So I thought that was pretty clever, although now it does reek with to validate me. It really does. But I thought it would be a fun exchange and people would share all their stories and it would be this great thread. Then I realized I was banned. So here's what I shared to the following two moderators
of the group. I said, OK, not sure if you get the message, but just in case. First, I hope you're well. Second, I was just curious and I come in peace. I posted a message in the neighborhood Facebook page trying to get rid of a bookshelf. And admittedly, I thought the post was kind of fun. And then I asked for people's experiences with Facebook Marketplace. I'm a therapist.
I have a podcast called The Virtual Couch, and I'm working on an episode about the psychology of Facebook Marketplace, and I thought some funny stories from people would add to the episode. The next day, I went to check the post, and the group wouldn't come up, and I was honestly so confused. I was telling a client about it, and they mentioned that I might have been banned.
I didn't think about that at all, because quite frankly, I've never been banned for anything in my life, so my wife pulled up the page on her Facebook, and it was there. And so now I'm just really puzzled, and I'm truly hoping there was just a misunderstanding. We moved here a few months ago, and I am loving Arizona. I think I'm about as easygoing as one could be. And I do, boy, I really, I just was saying, validate me. Look how cool I am. I was saying, I do mental health podcast.
I do a lot of volunteer speaking to help people struggle with mental health. And I was really wanting to get involved in my new community. And I saw that you were the admin. So I thought you might be able to shed some light. And I said, thank you. And then the person responded back and said, I'm sorry about the post, but apparently one of our admins or moderators took your post to be self-promoting, which we don't allow.
If you want to rejoin the group, I'll let you in, but you have to mind our rules. To which I said, ah, I can totally see that. Okay. Yeah. I would love another shot. I was promoting the podcast a bit rather than just asking the question, but admittedly, I thought people wouldn't answer the question unless they knew about the podcast. I would love to join again. Thank you so much. And then about a week later, I said, Hey, to this person's name.
Hey, thanks again for offering to let me back in. I've searched. I still can't find the group. When you have a second, can you let me know if there's anything that I need to do on my end. Thank you. And you could see that they had read the message. And then here we sit, February 4th, 2025. I'm still not in the group, but all is well. It truly is. Thanks for listening, everybody. I hope you have an amazing week. If you did listen this far and you do have your own funny Facebook Marketplace
stories, please send them my way. And I will make good on this episode that I half wrote a half a year later. Thanks, everybody. And I will now take it back to the ending of the Q&A files. Back to you, Trisha Jameson. Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files. Delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you. Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our community extra special. Keep sending your questions to trishajamesoncoaching at gmail.com.
Your curiosity is our compass. Please hit subscribe, spread the word, and let's grow the circle of insight and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson, signing off. Music.