The Therapist's Guide to Strengthening Relationships Through Self-Discovery (Differentiation) and Connection (EFT/4 PIllars)

Music. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 418. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I had somebody today ask me why I don't do the whole big old speech anymore, and I think it just reigned its course. But I am still a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful habit coach, a writer, speaker, husband, father of four, ultramarathon runner,

creator of the Pathback. Okay, there's why I stopped doing that. That is a mouthful, but key is just please sign up for my newsletter. Please and thank you. and I will fill in, you will find out all the wonderful things that are going on in the world of courses and podcasts and quotes. And maybe I want to find out some information from you, but that all happens on the newsletter.

And while one announcement that I will make, and that is I did a sneak preview of a new, I will call it an affordable men's group call that I am naming the emotional architects.

And the goal is becoming a much better you we're talking about emotional maturity emotional consistency how to sit with discomfort how to free yourself from the constant need for validation how to step into the concept that we truly just don't know what we don't know and that is okay currently there are two group calls a two group there are two group calls a month and then my emotional architects will have access to the archive calls as well as to some

individualized questions and answers with me and my hope is to continue to build and develop that group because I am absolutely a recovering, emotionally immature person myself. So all of the content in these calls will be from the very bottom of my heart, truly. So if you're interested, please just reach out to me through my website.

TonyOverBay.com or email me at info at or contact at TonyOverBay.com. Or you can message me through any of the social media accounts, Instagram, Tony Overbay underscore LMFT, or on Facebook, find me at Tony Overbay Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, or on TikTok at Virtual Couch. So today, one of my favorite things to talk about, let's talk about relationships, let's talk about couples. And let's start this by me stepping into my healthy ego. ego.

And for anybody new, a healthy ego refers to, it's a balanced, it's a realistic. So for anybody new, a healthy ego refers to a balanced and realistic self-esteem that stems from your actual accomplishments. And this is moving from, I had no idea, I didn't know what I didn't know, to now I know. And now that I do know, I know that there's probably other things I don't know that I don't know. And I also am able to admit and acknowledge the things that I don't.

Because part of the healthy ego is it's characterized by a stable self-image that starts to incorporate your hard-earned success and overcoming real-life challenges. And since it's based on genuine achievements, then a healthy ego remains resilient despite any kind of minor setback or offense that are basically part of our journey here on life.

And because the healthy ego is based on genuine achievements, it remains resilient even through minor setbacks or offenses that are just part of life's journey. So if you have a healthy ego, this is when you will motivate yourself to prioritize your own well-being. And it does start to sound like we're going to be selfish, but this is about self-care. This is about making decisions that align with your genuine self-interest and cultivate, and here's the kicker, an authentic self-respect.

I really believe a a healthy ego can be perceived as it's something that is inside of us. It's an internal force within us. So. We often think that self-care is selfish, or if I'm talking about my healthy ego, that it sounds like I am being an egotistical maniac, but this is really about that inside inner confidence based on real-life experience.

Now, it'll come into play today, the opposite, or the unhealthy ego, or maybe more of a false self, the definition of that would be, it's essentially kind of fake confidence, and it's when somebody appears really confident, and they act like they are better than others, But underneath that whole show, they're dealing with a lot of self-doubt. And this facade, this disguise, it's really, it's a false self, is not built on real achievements or success.

It's more about trying to convince others and yourself, quite frankly, that you're special without the solid foundation to back it up. And this is truly somebody doesn't know what they don't know. And it really does become interesting that that is such a difficult thing for people in general to get behind. mind. So, when somebody says, hey, what do you think about whatever the topic is, it's actually okay to say, oh, I really don't know, but tell me what you think.

Or if somebody says, well, what do you think is going to happen in a scenario that you really don't know, then instead of saying, you know, I really don't have an idea, I could venture a guess, but I really, I'm not really sure. Because when somebody with this unhealthy ego or this false self, when they face even a tiny bit of criticism, it's like their whole,

somebody burst their whole balloon. And that's because their sense of self is so fragile that then just a minor challenge can start to feel like a huge threat. And then that leads to that person starting to overcorrect on simple disagreements, starting to see them as an attack. And then now they got to go big and try to make you feel little or small. And so then they will just lash out to protect their own shaky self-image or their own fragile ego.

And they're basically on constant guard trying to maintain this illusion of, I got it all figured out, kind of being on top, because admitting vulnerability feels too risky, if they're even aware of that. So that unhealthy ego, it's like wearing an armor that is just for show, that it looks really tough on the outside, but it doesn't actually protect the

vulnerable self that's hiding underneath it. So it's more of a defense mechanism, but one that ultimately actually keeps the person from building genuine self-esteem or genuine connection based on real personal growth and achievements.

The reason I set the table with those, healthy ego and unhealthy ego... I need to own the fact that we're going to talk about some things today with regard to relationships that I truly did not know, that I didn't know, even as I thought that I was figuring out this whole couples therapist gig many years ago. So, there's a therapist that I really like, and he writes a lot about law and ethics, and he has pre-licensing courses available.

His name's Ben Caldwell. I would say from a healthy ego, here's what he says about couples counseling. And it's this policy that all new and still many experienced couples therapists operate from, and it's the no secrets policy. So the couples therapist will say, hey, the relationship is the client, not the individual. The relationship is the client. So we need to do what's best for the relationship. So I need to keep a no secrets policy.

So if I get you in a one-on-one situation and you tell me a secret, then I can't work with that. So we're going to need to bring that out into the open because that's what's best for the relationship. Because Because it makes sense. I mean, Ben Caldwell says the problem with secrets, keeping an individual secret is awkward at best, and it represents triangulation at worst. Because now that there are two of you that know something that the other doesn't know.

And it's also really difficult on a practical level. Because he said, once you start keeping individual confidences, then you have to remember what information you learn from each partner that is expected to remain confidential. And you have to keep track of that for every couple you see.

So he said for him, the concern about the clinical impact of secrets started to take a backseat to the concern that I would simply screw it up, that I wouldn't be able to remember it all, and an individual secret would spill out. But he said over time, though, his philosophy on this has changed. And he said, I'm not necessarily suggesting that yours should as well.

He said, we each need to find the secrets policy that works best for our practices, but I hope that his own journey can be useful to know. So he talked about withholding information. He said, when I had clients sign a no secrets policy, they still had secrets. Only now, in addition to keeping those secrets from each other, they were also keeping those same secrets from me.

Anything that either partner might have been willing to tell me about in confidence but not in front of their partner became something that I was never going to know. So, for example, he said, despite strong research showing high prevalence of violence among couples, very few ever reported a history of violence to me. He said affairs, when finally revealed, blindsided me as well as the other partner. And he said I kept starting therapy without critical information.

So he talked about having a different approach to couples therapy. He said my policy now is more nuanced and it gives me more freedom of movement. Now clients agree at the beginning of couples therapy that I have the right, but not the obligation, to share anything that they share with me individually, and I'm asking them to trust my clinical judgment about what I will and what I will not reveal.

He said, when I made that change, the couples I worked with immediately became more honest with me at the assessment stage. And he said, I learned about substance abuse, violent arguments and affairs early on, often from individuals who wanted desperately for their partners to know without blowing up the relationship.

Relationship. So with that knowledge in hand, he said, then I could work with the person keeping the secret on how and when they should inform their partner and what I could do to plan treatment in a way that could repair their bond. So he says this newer policy asks more of me to be sure. He said it requires me to own complete responsibility for the clinical decisions I make around secrets. He said sometimes it means pretending not to know something that I'm aware of,

the very position that a no secrets policy is designed to help therapists avoid. void. And it means that on rare occasions, I have indeed simply made a mistake and revealed something before the person with the secret was ready. But he said my treatment has also grown more successful precisely because I now get critical information that needs to be part of the treatment planning.

It's really fascinating because I have felt this for so long as a couples therapist, even to the point where I had already changed my own view on the no secrets policy, but it was something that I felt that, oh my gosh, I can't even really talk about this. But then over time, it just is the way that good couples therapy happens.

But you have to be the couples therapist that's in that position to know, and you've got enough reps or enough time in the chair to know that those situations occur and that that is part of your job. That's what people are coming to you is to help navigate these difficult relationships, which will play into what we're going to talk more and more about today. day. But he said it led to new levels of respect. He said, one other thing changed that I didn't expect.

Clients respected me more. When I brought these decisions under the umbrella of clinical judgment, rather than trying to address them through a blanket policy, clients saw me as more professional, more willing to fully embrace the professional role I was already in. So he said, the freedom of movement that some secrets policy provides made me anxious at first, but also made me better.

And I think as a couples therapist, that theme alone is something that has become become so powerful that even when you find a therapeutic modality that you love, and even when you've got a lot of reps on the couch with a lot of couples, but you still are a human being, and the more that you're doing your job, and the more you're coming from that healthy ego, because you can't learn certain things about being a couples therapist until

you've had a decade in the chair, or maybe you've been going through things in your own relationship or marriage. I love the fact that, of course, I'm going to continue to grow and to learn. Because that is part of the human experience. And there are times when I will see a couple in my office and one of the people in the relationship looks at the other one and says, this is, you are not who I married 15 years ago. And they look at me like they want me to back that up and say,

wait, what? This guy's changed? Like, whoa, what is that all about? But the hope is that we get in relationships to go through experiences together that are the first time that we've ever been in those experiences as ourselves as individuals, but now with another human being to interact with, the hope is that we can address those attachment wounds, that we can also learn to become more interdependent, learn to recognize what my own. Interactions with others bring up for me.

And here's this person that I want to help help become the safest person that you can have in order to process emotion with. And that's one of the beauties of being in, and that's one of the most beautiful

things about being in a healthy, committed relationship, is that you can slowly start to go through and experience life and process information without being made to feel like you're doing it wrong, because you're actually both just doing it for the first time. But I digress. Let's get to the meat of today's podcast. I was never going to be a couples therapist. Now, well over 1,500 couples into this almost 20-year journey, I like it.

And from a healthy ego standpoint, I will say I'm good at what I do. And my own approach, thank goodness, has changed. And I have changed as well as I've learned more of what I didn't know that I didn't know. And it's because of being in a relationship with somebody that I do care about that I am able to do a lot of introspection, a lot of self-reflection. Now, can that come on my own? Absolutely.

I'm on my own in that scenario. But if I'm interacting with another human and I have somebody else that is having their own human experience and we can step back and say, okay, hey, tell me what your thoughts are. Or I've got somebody that I trust that's saying, I noticed this about you and help me understand. Then I believe it makes sense that then it can help you become a better version of yourself. Keeping in mind that it can also help you further solidify your knowledge of who you are.

So my own couples work came initially out of me feeling this call to work with men and helping them, I initially thought, become better husbands and fathers, but also having this experience where not a lot of men were coming to counseling. And in my internship years, I was then tasked with helping people overcome addiction. Or more, we understand now, people were turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms when they were hungry, angry, lonely, tired, when they were bored.

And more specifically, I identified what I call these five voids, that people turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms like pornography, food, work, gambling, their phones, drugs, alcohol, you name it, when they felt a disconnect or they did not feel good about themselves in, again, one of five areas, in their relationships, in their parenting, parenting in their careers and their health and in their faith. And so, I just thought, okay, let's try and help people in those areas.

But simple reflective listening wasn't really cutting it, especially as a brand new couples therapist. So, as I was trying to figure out what to do with people and their marriage, because the reflective listening is what you learn by default in grad school. If I were to play out a scenario, the one that comes to mind is, is, and this isn't an exact quote, but I remember early on, it was almost like I'm saying, okay, Steve, what are you hearing your wife say?

Well, she says that she wishes that she hadn't married me. And if she had the choice between hanging out with me or a rabid skunk, then she would grab some tomato juice and head out with a skunk. And I would say, oh, okay, okay. I thought that she had said tomato paste, but yeah, I think for the most part, that sounds right. So then, Jen, what what are you? Did he get that right? And I used to think, okay, they just need to hear each other.

So, then I kicked around a little bit of what's called imago therapy, which in essence, and it was good, it was helpful, says the goals of the, there's this imago dialogue or to remove negative hurtful language from communication. So, then you could create this safe emotional environment and then both people would be open to share without this negative connotation or negative tone. And so for just a brief moment, I'm working on trying to remove that negative language.

But at times, people seem pretty confused because maybe they grew up in a home where that type of language wasn't even considered negative. So then it felt like we were getting out in the weeds a lot with regard to semantics and what the meaning of a particular word meant. Not that that wasn't important, but it felt like those conversations would just sort of stall. But then I discovered Sue Johnson's Emotionally Focused Therapy or EFT.

And I really clicked with EFT because I felt like now we're starting to address some more of the deeper issues. And there's a framework and it was an evidence-based framework to be able to know how to connect more emotionally. And how our past hurts would play out in our relationships. And what I loved so much about it was the principle or the concept there was, how do you heal together? So EFT became my go-to. It just made sense.

You were putting out these emotional bids. You're handing someone your heart. Can I trust you? Can I count on you? Do you love me? Do you have my back? And that made sense based on the way I personally grew up. My anxious attachment, my insatiable need for validation. Hey, do you see me? Do you care about me? I would really like for you to care about me. Matter of fact, I kind of need you to care about me. And so does that mean we're good? Or did I do anything bad or wrong?

Or are you sure? Because you're not jumping up and down. Do you promise? Like for real? But after years of working with EFT and developing my own concepts there, my four pillars of a connected conversation, which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit more in a bit. And maybe this is that time to get a plug. I have this mini marriage workshop game, $25.

It's available now. Now, check the link tree in the show notes or my larger Magnetic Marriage course, which please contact me because it's been a hiccup or two, a glitch, but it's in essence there. It's ready. And that is where I go into so much more about a lot of the concepts we're talking about today with the emotionally focused therapy piece, but also more of what we're going to talk about now.

Something I haven't really talked about on a podcast, but something that's been showing up in my office for a couple of years now. So I've got those reps in. But what happened was then along came the crucible approach. And I primarily attribute that to a therapist named David Schnarch. And a person I would like to say, a friend of mine, Dr. Jennifer Finlesson-Fyfe, who's been on the podcast many times, she seems to be a big proponent of the

crucible approach and is a big fan of David Schnarch. So at first, I'll be honest, it kind of threw me for a loop. It talked about differentiation a lot, and I knew the basic concepts around differentiation. And if you listen to the virtual couch or waking up to narcissism lately, boy, I'm working those principles of differentiation of self into everything. Because I do now really feel like I understand something that I didn't know.

That I didn't know that I didn't know the importance of things being ultimately a me thing. But it does sound kind of bad in a session where somebody says, well, that sounds like a you thing.

I can understand when it's coming from a place of healthy ego and the other person is not in that unhealthy ego or that defensive stance that then if somebody's saying, okay, but I feel like that is something that is you struggle with that I'm okay with, then the other person in the relationship needs to be okay with taking a look at, okay, am I struggling with this concept? And I'll get into some really good examples here in a little bit.

But initially, I thought that this crucible approach was really oversimplifying things. Again, I didn't know what I didn't know, but I thought, when do you put yourself out there? When do you get a chance to be vulnerable for your partner to see what your, for your partner then to see what your experience is? And it just appeared to be without the knowledge that I think I have now that the answer was, no, why would you let that other person have that type of power?

Why would you hand that power to somebody else? Why would Would you hand them your heart, give them this emotional bid and risk this chance that they may now completely reject you and you're already feeling insecure and you're already worried that if I say the wrong thing, this person is going to leave or even maybe worse yet, I really understand a little bit more about the potential harm that this could cause because in the world of working with the emotionally immature or the people

more on that narcissistic traits and tendencies right up to narcissistic personality disorder scale, if you are handing your heart to that person, then you're handing them the very buttons that they will inevitably push if they are ever put in a position where they feel like they are being criticized or told that they are wrong. Quick example, if a wife says in a very vulnerable moment that her greatest joy is in being a mother because her own mother was never emotionally available.

And then her emotionally immature husband, when it's discovered that let's say he has been been unfaithful. Then he retaliates with, well, if you really want to follow through on this divorce, that's going to be on you. And what kind of a mother will you be then to your kids if it really does mean that much to you? When it was him who got caught. But the crucible approach seemed to say, hey, fix yourself, and especially with regard to sex intimacy.

And so that really felt off to me. And if somebody is a big crucible approach or schnarsh fan right now, then they're They're already saying, but that's not, there's not an expectation. And I hear you. And we'll talk about that more because I think that's one of those areas that I didn't know that I didn't know. But then as I dug deeper, my view started to shift that crucible approach wasn't about being selfish. It wasn't about demanding more from your partner without reason.

It seemed to be that it was more about growing as individuals within the relationship. So that kind of helped me see how important it is to be strong on your own and how then that actually brings you closer together, which I think is one of those concepts that we as couples, as humans, don't understand what we don't understand. That why on earth would I want to become more individualized within the relationship if if I'm in the relationship so that we can become together.

So this started to become a bit of a game changer for me. So I realized that EFT and the crucible approach weren't really opposites. They were two sides of the same coin. I like to think of it that way, that EFT started to teach us how to connect on a deep emotional level to understand. And then there's that potential to help heal each other. And then the crucible approach showed us how being our own person, having our own back actually makes those connections stronger.

But it wasn't like the journey into there. So then I saw that sometimes you

really need that emotional bond that EFT talks about. Because there are moments when I will stand in that healthy ego and say nothing beats feeling deeply connected, understood, heard, and seen by your partner, understanding each other on that almost this soul connected level. So now what I feel like I'm at now, so where I feel like I am now as a couples therapist is truly blending, I think, the best to both of these worlds. So then my approach to couples therapy is far richer from it.

So I've learned that relationships, I think, are more than about balancing. Sometimes it's about us together. It's in, we're in this emotional dance. And sometimes it's about me and you as individuals doing our own thing, but still being together. Then we're having more curiosity and more shared experiences. Now that doesn't come natural. It's not typically easy, especially when you don't have those skills and the reps, even as a couple, but man, is it worth it?

So now I think as I keep moving forward, I take these lessons from both EFT and the crucible approach with me. And it starts to become more about understanding that tightrope walk between being together and being yourself. And honestly, that I think is, for lack of a better term, is the secret sauce to making relationships work.

So I'll go with one of my go-to examples is a woman who we're in couples counseling and she's talking about that her husband abuses her and you just watch this visceral gut reaction and he gets angry in that moment because she's making these accusations of abuse and I'm not trying to downplay abuse at all because I take that very seriously but in this scenario then if I was purely operating from a differentiated standpoint then I am I am saying Okay, do you feel like you are abusing her?

And he says, no, absolutely not. That is not something I've ever done. I went through abuse as a child. I was hit by my dad. I was thrown downstairs. I had broken bones. So no, I'm sorry. I don't abuse her. Again, from a differentiated standpoint, then I'm working with him to then say, okay, this is an opportunity for you to look deep within yourself and then self-reflect. And is that something that you are willing to take a look at?

Is that something that you can self-confront? And if he doesn't feel like that's the case then, and this is why I appreciate this example as difficult as it can be, then in his mind, he's thinking, well, that's a her issue. And I can't convince her. I don't need to defend myself. I don't need to break down her reality. And the hope is we can maintain this relationship. But you can already see that, man, that can come with a bit of an edge without really understanding what her experience is.

So then going over to her and her saying, okay, he's had some emotional affair. fair. And so I feel like that is emotional abuse. And so I, yeah, I use the phrase abuse because I've learned that as I've dug more into the world of betrayal trauma in this particular group that I'm working with. So from a differentiated standpoint, then she's taking a look within, she's self-confronted, and then she's able to say that is what's happening.

And I'm confident about that. I've taken a look at that deep within myself. And so now that's a him issue that he is unwilling to admit that. You can stand in that healthy ego that have that confidence and that's a him thing. But where does the potential for a deeper connection come? Well, then in comes emotionally focused therapy. Hey, let's use these four pillars and it can be really difficult.

If I'm saying to him, let's address my pre-pillar of you're making an observation that she is saying that you are abusive and you've got a judgment that says she obviously thinks that I'm physically physically abusing her. So now he's operating from the stance of whatever she says, if she doesn't acknowledge that I'm not physically abusing her, then she's not being honest with herself. And what am I supposed to do?

Pre-pillar. Pillar one, then I can say, okay, let's get into this place where you're in a relationship. There were things that you've enjoyed and loved about each other. You have kids together. You've had wonderful, amazing times together. Let's assume that she's not trying to hurt you with these accusations, these allegations.

Let's assume those good intentions, or let's maybe even go deeper into my pillar one and say, or there's a reason why she's saying this you are abusing me concept just right now. Pillar two, you can't say that I think she's crazy, she's wrong, or I disagree. But let's just put a pause there. Even if you think that all those things, she's crazy, she doesn't know what she's talking about. I don't do that. I disagree.

Because that'll lead us into pillar three, which is my questions before comments. Okay. Help me understand. Tell me more about this abuse that you feel from me. Help me see my blind spots. And now I can start to dip back into that concept of being differentiated. Because if I'm being the guy, I want to be the very best version of myself.

I don't think that I abuse you, but I have to suspend that for a moment and recognize that you are having your own individualized experience because you're the only version of you that's ever walked the face of the earth. And I do care about you. So tell me more, help me understand questions before comments. And then she lays out the things that she's learned about emotional abuse, the emotional affair, the abuse that you've caused me, here comes discomfort.

If I can help him learn to sit with that discomfort, be emotionally consistent, present, show up, then man, I can then understand that this person I care about, that would be really difficult if she feels like the person that she has kids with, the person she wants to share this future with is abusing her. Then that breaks my heart. Even though that is him, that is about him. Then pillar four, can he stay present? Can he lean in? Can he not run into a victim mindset?

And by that, it would be, okay, fine, I'm abusing you. I'm a horrible, abusive person. Because then at that point, he wants her to come rescue and say, no, no, no, you're not. But then he says, I appreciate that. She feels heard. She feels understood. But he honestly knows. He says, okay, but I know, or here's what abuse looks like to me. And now we flip that script. She's the listener. He's the speaker. Same rules apply. And he shares, here's what the word abuse means means to me.

And I was thrown downstairs. I was punched. I had an arm broken at one point and he had never really shared a lot of that with her. Now all of a sudden she's saying, oh my gosh, I am so sorry. I did not know that. She said, I will never use the word abuse again. But now he feels so hurt and understood. He said, no, it's okay. I know that you don't know that you didn't know that. And it's okay. I was making meaning of something that you didn't think that that was what it meant.

And so here's this point now where there was that emotionally focused therapy piece, my four pillars, there's a chance to now connect at a deeper level, but still then go back to this differentiation place of, so she doesn't necessarily feel like her view is incorrect. It's just, it's a different view than what his was. And they both feel heard. They both feel seen. And so that brought them closer together.

And I am by no means saying that it's just that easy when you decide to throw the four pillars in because we've got these visceral, these gut reactions. And I think that is the challenge and why so many therapists, I believe, they are more comfortable in working with one modality versus the other. Because I've been that emotionally focused couples therapist who has then said, okay, well, we both feel heard and you didn't take the conversation out in the weeds.

So it's better than yelling at each other. but sometimes I think they look at each other and think, was this progress? Because there's no resolution. And I'm saying, well, to be heard is to be healed. But then if they walk away from that still feeling like the, man, what is wrong with me? I don't feel heard and seen.

But I can also understand that if you are trying to continually go back to these, putting out these emotional bids and trying to heal these attachment wounds and sharing bits of your heart, and it continually doesn't work and it backfires, now your own body is saying, are you crazy? So I'm I'm going to, I'm going to elevate your heart rate. And so at that point, then I can completely understand why we need to go into that world of differentiation.

And okay, this is now an opportunity for you to self-confront, to sit with discomfort. Part of that might be the discomfort of setting a boundary. Well, if you are unwilling to acknowledge this, then I need to exit the relationship. You know, not the ultimatum you need to understand, but the boundary. If this isn't happening, then I need to do something. It's more empowering, but it's still what I do with my discomfort, it's still this interaction gives me an opportunity to grow.

So I hope you can see why I'm just so fascinated by this dance, this combo pack of wanting to put out these emotional bids, wanting to try to heal our attachment wounds, wanting to try to make sense of a situation because I'm in a relationship with a completely different and unique individual. But also at some point, I got to trust my gut and my body keeps the score. And this is a me thing. And I am truly the only person that I can, in essence, control.

So that's part of this journey of life. So we're here doing this together with

another human, but with the hopes that doing this with the other human is going to be a healthy, productive experience. But then when it's not, it isn't that you're doing it necessarily wrong, but it's a what do I now do with this situation, with this opportunity? Let me do a little bit of compare and contrast. I'll give some examples. We're going to talk about emotionally focused therapy.

We'll talk about some of this crucible approach, and then I'll take a look at what specific examples look like with each one, because I think this will just really help. And hopefully, I know a lot of therapists listen to the virtual couch, but if you're somebody that is really trying to figure out yourself, how you show up in relationships, and maybe even what couples therapy could look like, then I hope this will help. And if you're...

If you're having yeah buts or questions along the way, jot them down, reach out to me, give me your own real life examples because I would love to answer those in a future episode. So if you're really looking at attachment theory, attachment theory basis, because emotionally focused therapy is grounded in the belief that humans are inherently relational and that our attachment, especially our emotional attachment to a significant other is a crucial part of our well-being.

And if you aren't from that camp, then if you have yeah buts here, then I can understand that because we all have these different situations that we come into relationships, but a lot of those attachment wounds, they really did start in our childhood.

But according to attachment theory, these early relationships with our caregivers form these different attachment styles and then those attachment styles are actually the things that influence how we interact with, how we read the room, how we perceive our intimate relationships, which kind of makes sense because that's what we saw modeled and we're growing up and that's just, that becomes our home base. That's normal to us.

So then EFT uses the attachment theory as sort of the lens through when now where you're viewing all of your relationship dynamics. So then it suggests that the stress, the distress, the challenges that you have in adult relationships, that those are typically coming from your attachment fears and your needs that weren't met when you were young.

So it is a way to heal yourself through a relationship. So an example, let's talk about somebody, maybe a partner who has an anxious attachment style, because that's a person that is going to fear deeply fear abandonment. So then they are going to react really strong to any sign of pulling away or distancing by their partner.

So EFT T is going to address those underlying fears and it's going to help that person communicate their, and it's going to be scary, but help their, help them communicate their need for reassurance, for closeness, hopefully in a way that strengthens the relationship. And then I want to, I'll come back to this in a little bit and then we'll, we'll take a look at it through the crucible lens. Maybe the second part of EFT that I would talk about is emotional bonding.

And so this concept involves creating and strengthening these secure attachments that we didn't have in childhood, these resilient bonds between partners. So I can go and explore the world and come back to a secure attachment and feel safe because that's going to help me show up better as my best self out in the world because I know that I can come back and process emotion with another human.

So EFT therapists work with couples to play around with, explore, express emotions that are lying underneath or beneath the surface of a conflict because it's not always about leaving your dirty socks on the ground. It's something that's sitting deep underneath that. Oh, you don't care about me or you don't appreciate me because that's probably the message that we really felt in childhood.

Childhood so when you're trying to address those deeper needs and really you get to those insecurities then again if you're in a safe relationship and you don't know what you don't know and you're learning these tools then it can be it can be healing as well as connecting so then couples learn to turn toward each other for comfort and support instead of away so an example there maybe like in a session therapist might help one of the partners really communicate or express

us a deep-seated fear of not being enough for their partner, and that that stems from their childhood experiences. So, the more that you share these vulnerabilities, then the other partner is encouraged to respond with empathy and support, and that will help strengthen the bond, not. Respond with nothing, being nothing, or that person taken on a victim stand. Well, how do you think that makes me feel?

And I love when I interviewed one of my favorite therapists, psychologists interview, Dr. Finlayson-Fyfe on a podcast where I was talking about what does she know about. Emotionally focused therapy. And I was talking about my four pillars and talking about how she is more of this differentiation therapist. And I love that if I remember correctly now, it's been a couple of years, so I could have confabulated the story as well.

But I believe that she talked about the locus of control, that she felt like that wasn't something that she necessarily enjoyed in EFT. And I get that because when we're talking here about if If somebody is putting out that emotional bid and they're saying, man, when you... Withhold affection, attention, or when you shut down, when I'm looking for connection, then I really, it brings up these feelings in me where I don't feel like I'm enough.

And if that other person doesn't respond, then it's again, as if you handed your heart over, said, Hey, what do you think about this? And they grabbed it and they threw it on the ground and they stomped on it. And so then it will, it does put that locus of control. You're handing it over a bit into someone else's hands.

So into the wrong hands or immature hands or our hands that were raised by parents that just didn't ever really show up and provide that secure attachment to that person, then you can be left feeling very alone, which at that point, then I really think you can see where being differentiated is going to be an absolute necessity game changer.

So So that dance back and forth that continues to show up, the more that I work with couples and see that every couple has a different story as much as you see a lot of things that are similar behaviors or patterns. So then another concept in EFT is these negative interactions, these negative cycles, these dances that couples get stuck in. And they're often referred to as demon dialogues or this dance. And these cycles, they just are self-perpetuating and they start to escalate

and get worse over time. and that leads to disconnection, deep disconnection. So by identifying and understanding these dances and their things like the pursue-withdraw pattern or the tit-for-tat. And so by identifying, understanding, and then hopefully changing these patterns, that's a big focus for EFT.

So an example there might be a very common negative is that pursue-withdraw pattern or one partner seeks closeness and reassurance through pursuing behaviors, which can be a little bit, It could be a lot, feels like that anxious attachment. So they're seeking closeness, reassurance, they're pursuing, which then will lead the other partner to back off and withdraw because they start to feel pressured or overwhelmed. And then that withdrawal.

Unfortunately triggers even more pursuing behaviors and then that starts to create a cycle and it's really interesting because i can have very emotionally intelligent people in my office that are aware that then when they all of a sudden pull back and feel like okay i gotta stop trying so hard now their partner is the one that starts to pursue when they withdraw but then when they are met with that pursual the thing that

they desperately want and then they now start to then and meet that formerly withdrawn partner, now that person goes back to withdraw. And so you can just see that dance, pursue, withdraw, pursue, withdraw. And that just continues to, it just repeats itself over and over. So in EFT, trying to get people to recognize and then interrupt that cycle, and hopefully that'll create a new pattern of interaction. Another concept around EFT is dealing with vulnerability and openness.

One of the cornerstones of EFT is encouraging partners to express and be open and vulnerable, to express your fears, your needs, your desires openly. Now they are you thing, but you are expressing them. And that vulnerability, when it goes well, fosters intimacy, it's understanding partners are, they start to feel safer, they can share their inner experiences. And the hope is with eventually without fear and judgment of rejection.

And because that will honestly promote a very deep emotional connection when you can honestly open up and be vulnerable and have that other person see you and still accept you and love you there is there's nothing like that connection but it is scary and it's something that people most likely didn't see modeled in their childhood and maybe they have not had much success at that trying to have that in their adult relationships.

So then, you know, an example might be if I have somebody in my office and they really open up about their deep-seated fear of being unlovable if they show their true selves, if they really express their real opinions and thoughts and what they like and their hopes and their dreams.

So then the therapist hopefully is going to facilitate a really safe place for this disclosure and then they will help guide the other partner in responding with acceptance and empathy instead of criticism and dismissal. So then that will absolutely break down walls. It builds these stronger, more open and connected relationships. So EFT, it will hopefully move couples from conflict, move from detachment to this place of feeling more safe emotionally and having a deeper emotional connection

by addressing those core areas. And so if you really look at these deep emotions and attachment wounds and abandonment fears that are underneath the issues, then, man, you can do some serious healing and grow a really deep connected relationship. And let me talk a little bit more about the crucible approach. And this is where I'm going to say I'm confident. Now, on the EFT front, I feel pretty confident about the things that I know that I know.

But of course, I'm aware that there are things I don't know that I don't know.

So we step over into the crucible approach, and I feel like I am that little bit of that baby deer kind of walking awkwardly. But man, the things I do know about it, I really appreciate. And again, seeing this dance between EFT and differentiation is beautiful. But if you are a differentiation therapist, I'm sure you'll be able to poke some holes in here, and I would love that feedback.

So, in that world of differentiation, again, that's this process of developing a solid, robust, distinct sense of self while being intimately connected with a partner. And so then it, and I love this concept that it really involves you being able to hold on to your identity and values, even when they differ from your partner's.

Because when we get into relationships, pretty naturally, we're pretty enmeshed, we're pretty codependent because we're emotionally immature and we don't want that person to leave.

Believe and so we agree to a lot of things we're on the same page about a lot of things and some of it we really are and other things we might not be exactly on the same page but i'm not really willing to express that that i'm not we're creating these narratives in real time in our own mind that i probably i'm probably pretty close so if they say do you like scary movies and i hate them but i like that person they're pretty cute then i might say i mean i don't know i i guess i

don't really know if i don't like all scary movies i'm not gonna say that so i'm gonna say yeah love them oh man being scared so good and then in my mind I think hey note to self probably need to start doing some exposure therapy with scary movies because in that moment that gets me out of my discomfort gives me some validation but then when I leave I'm not going to watch scary movies you're kidding me I feel good now I don't get scared but so

when you're you're trying to in the world of differentiation you're hopefully being able to say oh I don't but tell me about what you like about them because if I'm ever going to go see one yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna probably close my eyes but I I would love to maybe be there with you because then you can have a different opinion than your partners and you can manage your own emotional responses without feeling like you have to

be reactive or overwhelmed or tell them, well, really? You like scary movies? That's silly.

So example there, if you take a look at maybe a couple where one of the people is an extrovert and they love social gatherings while the other is an introvert and they would rather have these quiet evenings at home, a differentiated stance in that scenario, if the couple is coming in really to process that scenario than from a differentiated, Point of view, each person needs to be able to respect and recognize their own needs, and that's okay to feel that way.

And acknowledge the needs of their partner without feeling threatened or, okay, I guess I have to go put myself in these awkward positions now. Or the extrovert saying, all right, well, no, it's fine. I guess I'll just never, ever go out and socialize. That sounds great. Because then they could start to look at more of negotiation, negotiating time spent in social settings, but as well as having quiet times so you can honor your individual preferences, You can still maintain a connection.

It's like bottom line into the day stuff is that the person who is more of an extrovert, they're going to extrovert. And the person that wants more of that time at home, they absolutely can do that. And that's okay. Okay, so then another concept from the Crucible approach, it emphasizes this importance of people finding validation from within, from within yourself, rather than relying on your partner to validate your worth, to validate your decisions.

And that concept, it's crucial for lessening your dependency on another person. And it does foster a more healthy, balanced relationship.

So an example there is if one partner feels really insecure, let's say about their career, about where they're at in their career, instead of continually wanting constant reassurance from the partner, they would work on building their self-esteem, finding their worth in their accomplishments and their own efforts and being okay with them, even if their partner doesn't recognize them, doesn't understand them. And when you're doing that kind of work, that internal work,

that's going to help you have a much healthier relationship dynamic because you're showing up not needing that person to manage your emotions or your ego, you're able to show up pretty confident and then show up more choosable in a sense in the relationship. So each person's self-esteem isn't overly dependent on the other person. And then another thing that the crucible approach or the crucible method is known for is sexual intimacy and the role that that plays in personal growth.

And I'm reading a book by Esther Perel right now, I think called Mating in Captivity, that I think really has a little bit of this vibe as well. But this concept really is that sexual intimacy and personal growth are interlinked. So I know that Schnarsh in particular suggests that a really fulfilling sexual relationship is both a reflection of as well as a pathway to individual differentiation and growth within the relationship because you are giving yourself to this other human being.

And I'm pretty early in the book mating and captivity but it seems that what Esther Perel is saying is that so often we're almost getting it backwards where we're trying to to.

Show up in a confident way to then open up sexually, but that she's saying, and I haven't gotten, not gotten into the deep end of the book yet, because I know that with the population of people that I work with primarily, you can't, you can't convince your body if you've been in a relationship for a very long time that has not felt safe to just say, okay, I'm diving in with regard to sexual intimacy. And then we'll, we'll, that's where I'm going to learn how to be open and vulnerable.

And then because of that vulnerability, then I'll back out and feel more more confident in opening up with communication. So, I know that that's not what it comes naturally for people, especially if they've been in relationships where there's been a lot of emotional immaturity or a lot of various types of abuse, whether it's been sexual abuse or religious abuse or emotional abuse or financial abuse or a lot of these different things.

So, the example though from the Crucible Method is maybe you're in a relationship where sexual sexual intimacy has started to wane. It has started to disappear. So then rather than viewing that purely in terms of physical satisfaction, the crucible approach might then encourage partners to explore what this reflects about their individual and their relationship growth.

So maybe one partner's difficulty in expressing their desires mirrors a bigger issue of difficulty in asserting that they have these needs within a relationship. So then addressing the underlying lying issues then actually could lead to a

more fulfilling sexual and emotional relationship. And man, even as I say that, I know the population I work with often is, I hope that that will not then be weaponized by the more immature partner saying, hey, listen to this one tiny clip of this podcast. We need to be having more sex because that's not exactly what that's about. And then the crucible approach also talks a lot about facing conflict.

Because according to this approach, conflict is not something to be avoided, but it really is an opportunity for growth. So when I talk about being differentiated, it's a me thing, it's an opportunity for me to self-confront and grow, that's where this comes from. them. Because by taking these conflicts and working through them head on, then especially the individual can achieve a greater differentiation and a stronger, more honest relationship.

Because now they are showing up more trustworthy, more emotionally consistent.

And this is where I go back to the healthy ego that we opened with today, that if you're starting to show up because you're willing to deal with your issues, you're willing to self-confront, then when you do feel like you are in a good place and you're the one who truly knows what it feels like to be you, then you're able to stand in that healthy ego and express yourself from a place of confidence and also admit and acknowledge things that you don't know or things

that you did that you weren't maybe even aware of. But when your partner brings those to you, you can understand, man, I wasn't aware or I can absolutely take ownership of that. And so then that becomes a real source of strength for an individual is to then tackle those things head on and not just Just try to get rid of the discomfort by shutting down, by withdrawing, by gaslighting. So an example here, let's go right to one of my high-charge topics, finances.

So when a conflict arises over financial decisions, instead of one partner just saying, no, it's okay, hey, I'll take care of it, I'll work harder. Yeah, I don't want to tell you no. No. Instead of avoiding that conflict or both partners just kind of stick into their positions, the crucial approach would encourage them to face the conflict head on. It might involve both people expressing their fears, their values related to money.

You might have to be open and vulnerable and open up about the fact that, yeah, I don't have no idea how to budget.

I'm not good at it. I spend impulsively. but by listening to each other's perspectives then you're able to hear the other person you're not trying to tell them they're wrong but as they express themselves then what does that bring up for me and then working together to find a solution that will hopefully respect both people's needs and viewpoints so what i can appreciate more that crucible approach it frames these concepts the concepts i just shared

that they're essential for individual and relational growth but you're You're moving beyond just a compromise and you're starting to achieve a deeper understanding

about yourself and your partner, which is going to lead to a better connection. So through differentiation, self-validation, the integration of intimacy with personal growth, and then being pretty constructive when you face conflict, then you can see where being differentiated can help develop a more mature, fulfilling relationship. relationship. So now let me go back through those examples that I used on the EFT concepts and let me then put the differentiation spin over that.

So that first one, let's imagine that you have this partner and they have an anxious attachment and they're really worried about being left alone or abandoned. So they get really anxious anytime or any hint that their partner might be pulling away. So in the EFT world, again, focus, that's going to be on addressing these deep fears. The therapist is going to help you talk about your need for reassurance and connection.

And you're They're hoping then to strengthen the bond between them and their partner by becoming the communication Sherpa, by helping them work through my four pillar framework, fostering an understanding, emotional support. But if we jump over to a crucible approach, then the situation, it'll look a little bit different. So let's say we just tried the four pillar approach, the EFT approach, and it didn't really land well.

From a differentiated therapist standpoint here, the emphasis isn't just on seeking comfort from your partner, but also it's on the anxious partner's personal growth and how can they self-soothe. So a therapist practicing the crucible approach might say something like, okay, hey, let's explore what your anxiety is telling you about your own sense of self. How do you feel about yourself when you sense your partner pulling away? Because that's a you thing.

And what can that reaction teach you about your own needs and how you might meet them independently? Where can you go for self-soothing when you put out this emotional bid and your partner is not there? And for whatever reason that is, do they just not know what they don't know? Are they incapable of because they never saw it modeled and they just don't understand?

So, then instead of just primarily focusing on getting reassurance from your partner, then that anxious person is going to be encouraged to dig a little bit deeper into their own fears. And then what are some of those ways that you can validate or reassure yourself? And then the therapist would hopefully guide them towards understanding that their worth is inherent.

It is a them thing. and their worth as well as their strength as an individual is your job and it's your opportunity and not just in the context of the relationship and that actually by finding yourself and being able to self-soothe and showing up confident, you have made yourself more choosable and now you're saying, hey, partner, I hope you choose me and it needs to be a daily choice, but I'm a good hang and we're going to have some fun times.

I've done my work and I would love you to come along on this journey. So they might work on exercises like or things that will help the anxious partner say, I'm feeling scared of being left alone right now, but I know I have value and I can cope with these feelings on my own. I can express my needs without fearing that I will drive my partner away. If my partner goes away when I express my needs, that's a them issue.

So the crucible approach is still going to recognize the importance of the relationship. And I think that's one of the things that people get confused about. But it's going to push for each partner to develop a stronger, more differentiated sense of self. And that means learning to stand on your own two feet emotionally, not as a way to distance yourself, which I think is one of the big, again, the big challenges when people are just learning about this.

You're not distancing yourself from your partner, but it's so that you can engage in the relationship from a place of strength and from a place of personal integrity. So, you got EFT, Crucible Approach, they both are trying to address the fear of abandonment, but the paths they take offer these different viewpoints, these different vantage points. One is through deepening the emotional connection together, and the other is more about personal empowerment and then becoming differentiated.

The next example that I shared from the EFT world was around emotional bonding. So in that scenario, we've got this, one of the partners is, they have a deep-seated fear of not being enough. Well, I felt that one. It's rooted in their childhood experiences. So within the EFT framework, the focus is on sharing these vulnerabilities. I'm opening up. I'm making this emotional bid in a safe place.

Hopefully, with the therapist now guiding the other partner to respond with empathy, using my four pillars, separating the observation from judgment, judgment okay i'm not just gonna observe that make a judgment well that means that you are thinking that i need to heal you and so now i need you to convince me that that's not the case pre-pillar you know no but i have to assume good intentions by what this person's sharing i

can't tell them that's ridiculous or wrong but even if i think it because that's it's their experience and i can ask questions before comments hey tell me what that looks like for you help me see my blind spots how often have you felt this way and then as the listener i can't go into victimhood hood and say, okay, great. I'm not there for you. You're right. A horrible partner. Those don't work. So we can try to meet the person there.

Now, if that does not necessarily resonate or land, so let's take a look at what that would look like from a crucible approach perspective. And in a similar session where that's what we're dealing with, the crucible approach, the therapist might recognize the expression of not feeling good enough as an opportunity for that individual to confront and grow through their insecurities.

Instead of just seeking reassurance, therapists might say, hey, let's explore what does feeling not enough mean to you? What is that feeling? When does that show up? Where do you feel that? What is that like? How does this belief about yourself influence the way that you show up in your relationship? Are you showing up insecure? Are you showing up immature, timid?

How can we work on understanding and challenging this belief so you can stand confidently in who you are, irrespective of your partner's actions or feelings? Again, it almost sounds like, yeah, screw them. That's not the point. That isn't. This is a you thing.

So the therapist is going to help the person start to recognize their worth independently, independently especially independently of relationships not just with their partner but with the adult parents siblings co-workers and this could it could really be a i would say a fun journey it is for the therapist of diving into how those childhood experiences shaped your self-view working on figuring out your values moving

away from those socially compliant goals to start to build self-esteem and self-validation so the the goal the aim there is going to be for for you then to develop a stronger sense of self, learning to do things that you want to do, learning to affirm and find your own values. And then that whole process might, you might have exercises or reflective practices that are going to bolster your self-acceptance and your resilience. This is why I love my beloved acceptance and commitment therapy.

You're the only you going through life for the very first time as you. So accept that. This is how I feel. This is what I think. I'm not broken. I'm human. And so, the therapist might encourage you to keep a journal. When do you feel this way? Reflect on moments where you've actually felt good. You felt competent and valued. And I promise I'm not going to say, well, see, you had a moment where you felt great. You're good.

But when do those things come up? When do the feelings of not enough come up? Because in that approach, while the partner support is, I mean, it's important in a perfect world, it remains important. But that emphasis shifts toward the individual who is learning to source this validation from within, rather than just relying on their partner to tell you they're okay, you're learning how to just be okay.

So the crucible approach there starts to transform the fear of not being enough into this catalyst for growth, for self differentiation. And so what that does is it really does, it starts to encourage the individual to face those insecurities head on. And then you're going to start to cultivate this inner strength that will support a more balanced relationship, a healthier relationship, because you're showing up more confident.

The ultimate goal isn't just for the individual to feel validated by their partner, but to reach a place where their self-worth is inherently internally anchored. It is there. And that's where they want to operate from. That's their home base, the self-worth. I am enough. And that will hopefully enable them to engage in the relationship again. We kind of said this last time from a position of strength and self-assurance.

Okay, if you're liking this, which I feel like I could talk about this stuff all day, I'll try to run through the last two examples I gave in the EFT world from a differentiated lens. We'll do that pretty quickly here and then we'll wrap things up because I think we're getting around the hour mark. mark. So the next one I talked about was these demon dialogues, the pursue, withdraw, freeze, and flee, tit for tat.

And so in that example that I shared, we have that classic dance of one partner pursuing for closeness and reassurance, and the other one withdraws, feeling pressured, which then in turn leads to more pursuing. In the EFT world, the focus is on breaking the cycle, helping each partner understand their role that they play in it, encouraging a shift toward more constructive interactions. We would four-pillar that thing to death. Yeah.

But let's talk about the crucible approach. I think it's really fascinating. So if I'm working out of that approach, then I'm going to view this pursue-withdraw pattern as an opportunity for each partner, both of them, to confront and understand their own anxiety and need for validation that fuel their behavior. So instead of focusing just on changing the interaction pattern, then maybe we're going to deep dive into the individual fear and the desire for driving each other's actions.

So for the pursuing partner, then we might be asking questions like, hey, what fears or insecurities prompt you when you are wanting that closeness? What are those things that show up for you that just cause you to want to desperately need your partner right then to validate you? Because it seems like that does tend to overwhelm your partner. You know, how can you find a sense of security, a sense of peace, validation for when yourself, when you notice that your partner needs space?

So, this is just, I mean, at that point, it's just questions that encourage the pursuing partner to reflect on what their need for reassurance is. Where does that come from? And why is it coming with such intensity? And what are some other ways that maybe you can recognize that need and self-soothe?

Literally pet the dog go on a walk do some push-ups start to validate your own worth without really just exclusively relying on your partner's responsiveness because then if they're not able to show up for you in those moments where you are wanting them to show up and I worry that sometimes when there's a more emotionally immature version of that which I know I've been myself if I don't even exactly know what I'm looking for but I just want my partner to make me feel better then there's

a good chance they even won't do that right if they try and then I get to say you don't care care about me and I am not enough. So it really does become this opportunity for me. It's a me thing. Why am I doing that? And what is that signaling in me? Why is it that I need to do it right now? What's happening in my life? And then what can I do to self-soothe?

And then take a look at that withdrawing partner. Then the focus might shift to, hey, what about your partner's pursuit makes you feel pressured or feel overwhelmed. And how can you communicate your need for space, though, in a way that doesn't feel rejecting? Or how can you maintain your sense of self and boundaries while staying emotionally connected with your partner? Well, how can you take a look with curiosity at what's happening to you inside?

What is that you thing? Because that's going to encourage that withdrawing partner to confront their own discomfort with intimacy, with dependency, taking a look at growth and the ability to engage without feeling lost or overwhelmed. That's a a whole new thing to try to show up as the partner who withdraws and then be able to express yourself, hold the boundary, maintain a connection.

So the crucible approach there, we're trying to transform that pursue-withdraw pattern into growth for both people. And that will push each person to develop a more differentiated self that can handle intimacy without losing their own individuality or resorting to withdraw. And that will allow them to show up in the relationship relationship from more of a place of confidence so that they can seek closeness without overwhelming their partner or sacrificing their own needs.

And so it just continues to go back to this concept of by focusing on your individual growth, self-validation, I get the fact that the Crucible approach, it's really trying to create a more mature, emotionally mature, emotionally consistent, balanced dynamic where both partners can pursue and connect without falling into these negative patterns.

And so then you've got these relationships where both people can stand confidently on their own, and then they can choose to step towards each other from a place of strength, from a place of self-awareness. And then the last one I gave from the EFT lens is in the EFT context, the focus on creating safe and supportive environments for somebody who's really going to be open and vulnerable to be able to share and be met with empathy and acceptance from the partner.

And that will strengthen the bond, the relationship's emotional bond, and they will see each other and they'll feel connected.

Now, the crucible approach there, if there is somebody who is trying to be open and vulnerable, we're going to take a look at that with that individual and see that expression of fear of being vulnerable, there's your pivotal moment for that individual to then take on, sit with that discomfort, confront their own self-perception, and the way that those perceptions impact their relationship.

So we might say, okay, what is it that leads you right now to cause you to feel pretty unlovable when you're trying to be your true self? Why is it that you feel this shame or guilt if you are now caught being yourself by your partner? You know, how has this belief shaped your actions and your interactions within your relationship? And where does that come from? So the goal, the emphasis there is on encouraging that person, the individual to, again, take a look inside, explore their own

self-worth. How has that been influenced by your past experience? What are those internal narratives that you're still fusing to, that you're believing in, that the I'm not enough story, or if I told somebody this, they're going to run away? Because the goal continues to be to help you as an individual recognize and challenge those real deep ingrained beliefs about yourselves.

And my EFT brain immediately wants to say, but of course, after you try to put out these emotional bids for your partner in hopes that they will then use the tools and be able to really see and understand you, get outside of their ego, be curious, say, tell me more. So the example then, the therapist might guide that person through a process of self-inquiry, self-reflection, and encourage you to then identify certain times where you felt unlovable.

Then you can take a look at those critically and examine those moments where that, what was happening for you. Because a lot of times when things are happening in that way in childhood, yeah, there are times where parents are being completely emotionally immature, emotionally inconsistent. They're distant. They're caught up in their own things that they're going on. Now, as parents, we know that, oh, yeah, it turns out that you still have some struggles and challenges when you're an adult.

When you're a kid, you think that your parents had everything figured out. So then in that scenario, it's like, okay, maybe my parents... Weren't, maybe that wasn't okay when they just didn't respond when I was crying or when I really needed somebody to talk to and I didn't recognize, but it wasn't my job as a kid to recognize they were going through something. You know, if I'm working with a parent, that's a you thing and you're there

for your kid. You know, it's a whole podcast for a different day. But when you're looking at this from a differentiated standpoint, then now you can understand that, man, that would would have been a great time for my parents to be there for me. And I did deserve love at that moment. And so now I'm maybe I'm putting this emotional bid out, my partner's not meeting that emotional bid, I have to then recognize that I have this inherent worth that I am lovable.

And that's the opportunity for growth goes back to that. Now all of a sudden, we're working on strategies to self validate. And that might even be things like self affirmations, mindfulness practices that focus on being in this present moment, accepting loving yourself. And that That internal work is crucial for anybody, honestly, whether you're trying to do EFT, the crucible method, being differentiated. Because the more that you can understand that you have that inherent worth,

that's built in, that is a factory setting. It's a matter of discovering that, though. But when you find that, then you are going to show up more confident in your relationships. Because if you can do that internal work and understand that it will help you not only manage your fear of being unlovable, but also it will help you engage in the relationship from a place of self-assuredness, from authenticity, from more confidence.

And so while your partner's response to vulnerability is still important, and I think there, if we're back to this dance between EFT and crucible method, it's important that crucible approach, it places a stronger emphasis on the individual's journey towards self-acceptance, towards self-love.

And so that whole process might now involve encouraging the partner to explore their own reactions and how they can support their partner's journey towards self-acceptance without taking on the responsibility of proving their partner's lovability.

Because again it goes back to if the other if the person is maybe in a in a more emotionally immature place and they're saying can you help me feel loved i'm not really sure how what that's going to look like but give it a shot then that's often a setup for failure because the person that is trying to now manage the emotions of maybe the anxious attached person it's might already be a little bit awkward for them because they are more than likely the the more avoidant attachment person.

So they're putting themselves out there, the anxious attachment person saying, okay, no, that didn't do it. And I still feel unloved. I still feel like I'm not enough. So now they get to say, you obviously don't care. And again, and I apparently am not enough, which is far from the case.

The crucible approach right then is it is this opportunity for personal growth, self-discovery, and that will help empower the individual to find and affirm their value from within and that is the key from within and then you can step back into the relationship more whole more self-confident open vulnerable authentic but will end there but that concept of being in the relationship more whole that there's there are two ways to do that one of those is you are

married and we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human or you're not even there you're in a relationship. And so we need another human to then go through life with. And then it's almost to have as our differentiation muse that, okay, all of a sudden we have a financial setback. Oh, that brings up some feelings and emotions for me, but I only know my experience. So now I'm in this relationship with somebody else.

What does this bring up for you? Because I only have my frame of reference, my schema, my point of view. And then if they tell what their experience is and I don't go and I don't say, oh, so you think I'm wrong? Or, well, why would you think that? But I can say, I hear you. And so now that we have your experience, my experience, it's the first time we're here together, then we can make this relationship whole.

But if that's not possible and that person is not showing up safe or they're just being completely withdrawn, well, that brings up some feelings and that feeling might feel alone. But then what do I do with that feeling of alone? Okay, I need to learn this budget I've heard so much about.

Or now I need to take ownership on things that I've never really done before. So I'm going to have the acceptance that, yeah, it might be scary and difficult, but I now know that I can't convince this other person to join me on this journey, but I'm going to put myself in a really good spot so that then hopefully I can show up and then be choosable because I kind of dig myself. All right. Hey, thanks so much for staying with me today. I really enjoyed this episode.

This is something I've wanted to record for quite a while. I actually recorded about 30 minutes of it, maybe a month or two ago. And I just, I think if I went back and listened to it, it would probably even still be a little bit different because we're changing. It's what we do. do. Feel free to send your questions. If you have any, your real life examples, I would love to put things through both the EFT, the four pillar, you know, and the differentiated lens.

Take my, go get my magnetic marriage mini game course, 25 bucks. Reach out to me if you're interested in the full magnetic marriage course. It's amazing. And I appreciate the support and we'll see you next time on the virtual couch, going out and taking us out as per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with her song. Music. Distance don't explode. Allow the understanding through to heal the legs and hearts you. Music.