The Self-Care Paradox: Why Putting Yourself First Isn't Selfish and Is “Healthy Narcissism” a Thing? Live QA w/Tony and Mackie Overbay

Um, uh, Here's Sid. Okay, you ready? Sid? It's going? Wait, what's going? Look at that. I look like the weekend's younger brother, like, the weekday. Or the mid afternoon. Yeah, you guys, we're, we're going by the way. Hey, we're live right now. Can you guys mute the Super Bowl? Oh yeah, yeah. Can you turn that? It's a dud anyway. Okay, we're gonna close these. You look so Aw, look at that. Crazy! Do you want to close these, Syd? Yeah, did you ask her? Yeah. TikTok, but not Instagram.

Okay. There's Olive. She's gonna want to come out. Olive! What are we talking about today? I got all kinds of things to talk about today. Do we have questions left over from last time? And Sid, I'll go back to the document that we used last time. Notes to Sid, right? Okay. Oh, we finished, I think, those. Hey everybody. Welcome aboard. I guess we'll wait for Instagram.

Mackie, what'd you think about the Super Bowl? Loved every second of it. No, I'm actually shocked. Yeah. I mean, I don't really know much or care much, but I'm surprised that's how it went down. Yeah. And I thought the halftime show was dumb. Did you now? Hot take! I just asked Sydney if she knew who Kendrick Lamar was. Syd's a fan, right? Yeah. Did you watch it? No, I didn't even know that was today.

Okay. I thought it wasn't bad, I just felt like an old man that didn't really know what was going on. I mean, maybe it's just because I'm old now. Yeah, you are. Okay. You're quite old. Have you been, what's your music genre? What do you like? I guess just pop, I don't know. K pop, like K pop? Absolutely not. No? Alright maybe we, maybe as a warm, welcome everybody my name is Tony. That's my daughter, McKinley, Mackie. Don't call me that. And, uh, don't call you that.

I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, but tonight we are, I am not giving, I'm supposed to say I'm not giving therapeutic advice. All right, I guess no i'm giving therapeutic i'm giving I can give advice But i'm not doing live therapy, but we want all of your questions whether on instagram or on tiktok If you have your relationship questions, anything about mental health, Sidney is behind the scenes producing. Say hi, Sid. Hi, guys.

Okay. And we got Mackie here and we want all your questions. I have things that I would like to talk about tonight. There's a couple things.

Number one, I think we can talk about the tiny little elephant in the room, but the butterfly stitches that I have on my cheek, because we can talk about the movie that we went and saw because we had some hot takes on the movie too, which I think was kind of fun. Story time. I want to know what it looked like from your angle though. Cause I still don't really know what happened. My chin. Oh, I barely saw any of it.

Okay, so we go to the movies and and the movie theater that we go to has a deal where for whatever the ticket costs, you can pay five bucks more, you can get a ten dollar arcade card and yes, I am still like a teenage boy when it comes to arcades. That's a big deal for you. It's a really big deal. Couldn't turn that down.

And there wasn't somebody there at the ticket counter to give you 10 for 5 card and this is where I jokingly said, if we want to learn about gaslighting, I can blame it on your mom. Because then Wendy just said, well, what if they won't give us the card after? So then I said, Oh, okay, I'll go out there right now. And I went out.

And I finally tracked somebody down and they gave me the card and I was very happy with myself And I go walking in the theater and it takes a minute for your eyes to get adjusted.

This is, it's not like excuses Cause it doesn't even Maybe that's an old man thing I think it is, well no because to set the scene a young girl did it right before you Yeah, so what I'm about to confess, apparently it happened right before Here's why, so when you're booking a ticket at this theater It looks like there's a row that goes on both sides of the seats. Clearly. I will say that. Like most theaters. And as a matter of fact, that's why I got the seats we did.

Because when we sat there, your mom said, Why did you get these seats? Because in my mind, I got an end seat, an aisle seat. With stairs right next to it. And so then when I came into the theater, I'm holding my cards. I think I was going to try to crack a joke about I did it or something. And then I noticed that there were people in our row. So then I couldn't, not only I couldn't crack my joke, because when I left, nobody was in the theater. I thought that was going to be funny.

And then there were people in the row, so I didn't want to have to go in front of them. So I thought, I'll walk over and go up the aisle. Which did not exist. So I just walked So you smacked your head into a wall? So hard. And it rattled me. Bad. And it did.

And and the worst part is, I haven't even talked about this much, but it looks like I'm going to need some, Surgery on something in my neck, so I've got some pain often right now, and it's in my neck, and it's also down my arm, and so when I ran into that wall, and I hit it hard, it just, I was dazed, and so, but I also was trying to hold it cool, like, yeah, that's no big deal, but I hit it hard, huh? I don't know. Oh, I thought you saw it. Oh, okay. I saw you bounce off the wall.

Okay, well that's probably pretty hard then. Yeah, yeah. I guess. Uh, and so then by the time I walk up there, you guys are dying laughing. I could've lost an eye and you guys would've been so laughing so hard. I would've had to go deal with it myself. Because you made it into a wall. Yeah, but there was no compassion. There was no It would've looked cooler if it was like over your eye. Oh my gosh.

But then we're sitting there and I am trying to be my best self and cause that would've been very funny. And that's the thing that mom and I have joked about for a long time. If it was me, you would have been laughing. That's the thing. I would have been very concerned. No, you would have been laughing.

Early, early in my marriage I was in college still and I had this final to take the next day and mom and I were like, she was chasing me around the house kind of a thing and I didn't have shoes on and I caught my pinky toe on a table ledge and it just snapped the toe sideways and I had my sock on and she was dying laughing and then when I pulled my sock off and my toe was that way, it was kind of funny.

But then there have been other times where maybe I've hurt myself and I've thought okay, well that's not very nice to laugh, but it is very funny. But then I'm sitting there and then she just says, what's on your cheek? And then I reach up there and it's like a bad horror movie and my hands got blood all over it. And so then I couldn't get it to stop bleeding and then we get home and it's still bleeding and so she put a butterfly stitch or bandaid on there. Really embarrassing.

Yeah, you look so cool. Do I? I was trying to think of, is The Weeknd is the one that puts the band aid on his nose and stuff? No. What? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he did. Well, for one album or whatever. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm like the You get like the fake plastic surgery looking face, you know? Yeah. See, look at how hip I am. I don't like The Weeknd. So I'm like The Weekday Afternoon. That's what I am. With this thing on, right? That's your joke for it? That's a dad joke. That is.

But, the movie that we were seeing, it was Companion. Your take. Hot take. Oh spoiler alert, if we're going to talk about this, because you went in not knowing anything about it. When I went in the first time, I didn't know anything about it, and that's very important to know. Well, that's, I feel like we can't even talk about it, because it'll spoil the whole thing. Okay. That's fair. Do we give it, we gotta give it more, a couple more weeks, then we'll talk about it.

Okay. Because it's an immediate spoiler. Yeah, it would be an immediate spoiler, but there are some things about relationships. I could give a There's some underlying, yeah. Themes. Underlying themes. Yeah.

One of them just is that you give everything for your partner as if that is like a good thing. And I think a lot of times early in relationships people do say, I'm, I just want to make you happy. I want to do whatever it takes to make you happy. And you lose yourself. You lose yourself. Yeah. And that's a normal part of a relationship. And this is where I just, I think we all go into relationships and we're naturally codependent and we're enmeshed together.

And then when you start to try to do things for yourself, then it will often, the other person will then think, well, wait, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Why aren't you basically caretaking me? And then if you're that pathologically kind person, then you often will say, okay, I'll give up myself and I'll go make sure that he or she is happy. And then, but I'll get back to myself later. But then at that point we just, yeah, I keep kicking the can down the road.

And so there's a version, I think I was telling your mom on the way, on the way home in the car. That the healthier version of that is I'm gonna, I choose me first to, to take care of myself, self care, it's not selfish, so that I can then love you. It's that if I don't love myself then I can't fully love you. Because if I don't love myself, then I'm trying to figure out, well, how do I do this so that you will love me? And so I'm not being my, myself.

And I'm putting my, the power into someone else's hands. And then that person, if they're not, I don't know if they're, if they're not the most what thoughtful kind, empathetic person, then they over time really started to take advantage of what you're doing to make themselves feel better. And it just becomes this endless cycle of you giving up yourself and them using you to make them feel better. Your thoughts. You nailed it. I mean, yeah, that's it. That's how it goes. They've done that.

What do you think, though, about the self care isn't selfish thing? Because I think people struggle with that. I think initially I struggled with it, too, because if you take it to, I don't want to say if you take it too far, because I don't want to say that self care is a bad thing, but if you take it to an extent where you're completely neglecting everyone you care about just for yourself, I think that is, there is some negative. Like a selfish version? You know, yeah.

Yeah. But I think that there is, I think for the most part. It's not selfish, and it should be encouraged, and everyone probably needs more self care in their life. I would love it if Yeah, Syd?

What helped me understand that, like, more for myself is if you can only show up for other people if you show up for yourself first, so it's like, everyone should be selfish to an extent, and that is a way to also be there for other people, cause if you're not the best version of yourself, you're not going to be able to help other people. Right, so I guess, yeah, if you're then still showing up for people, I think it's good.

But if you take it so far that then you push away any human contact ever because you're so far into that, yeah, then I think it's not beneficial anymore. Yeah. But if you're, yeah, if you are using it to heal yourself or better yourself. And show up for people, then I'm, I'm for it.

Yeah. And then the problem is if you are struggling to do that, most likely you weren't modeled that in your childhood by your parents, or you're in a relationship where you aren't given enough space or room to be able to try to do, engage self in self-care. Mm-hmm . And which is a, I mean, that's a red flag right there if your partner's not encouraging you to have self care. Self care time. Yeah. Yeah. Which then.

The bold performance horses said, and I don't think self care is buying coffee and getting nails done when it's out of our budget. Yeah. Good call. So I think, so what I like about that one, I think, so I think self care can start with just starting to allow yourself to think or dream or believe or hope. Because so often it go back into what your implicit memory is or what it feels like to be you or me or Sid or it's a, it's based off of the slow residue of your lived experience.

So if you're continually.

down and worried and ruminating and anxious and beating yourself up and what did I do wrong then over time That's what it feels like to be you So self care can be as much as watching a live with two people that are Encouraging you to do self care and it can be reading a book for a little bit or it can be just thinking about what you Would like to do even if your yeah butts come right in and say yeah, but that would never work Okay, but at least let's start thinking about it.

So I like what they're saying. It doesn't have to be some It doesn't have to, yeah, it doesn't have to be the mani pedi, running a marathon, or that sort of thing, although, yeah, yeah, um, Yes.

Okay, so here's a hot take. Are you ready? Okay. So this article that I really like, and it's by a psychologist named Eleanor Greenberg, and it's called The Truth About Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And and I will own this every day of the week that I took part of what Eleanor says about a particular kind of narcissism and I've and I've co opted it and put my own spin on it because I think this is really interesting. She just says that normal versus pathological narcissism.

So first of all, can you even imagine the concept of normal narcissism in today's society that somebody is using it as like, you know, normal narcissism. That, that is, is not looked at as bad. Look at your face. I just don't even understand it. Well, here's why.

So she says, Unfortunately, in the English language, the word narcissism has come to mean two entirely different things, depending on whether it's being used formally as a diagnosis, as a narcissistic personality disorder, or informally as a synonym for positive self regard. Have you ever heard of narcissism used as a synonym for positive self regard? Are there people running around being like, Oh, that's so narcissistic of me. And they say, Why, thank you.

Yeah, I mean there are the ones that would probably say that but they're actually the real narcissist So then she just says I know she says that she says I'm often asked isn't a little bit of narcissism healthy and normal And so here's what I like that.

She says though, and this is the part that I co opted So she says normal healthy narcissism, and this is where I call I will go ahead and say thank you Eleanor for your wonderful work, and I'm gonna call it normal healthy ego and this is where I go with this. Well, because I say like, there's like pride or there's like things like that that are confidence that's allowed, but I don't think you'd go as far as that.

So, and so listen, this is what I think, I would love your thoughts on this because when I say I'm going to step into my healthy ego, it can often sound actually pretty narcissistic. But, here's what she says, and I think it's great. She says, Normal healthy narcissism, so I'll say normal healthy ego, is a realistic sense of positive self regard that's based on the person's actual accomplishments. It is relatively stable because the person has assimilated it into their self image.

The successes that came as a result of their actual hard work to overcome real life obstacles. So she's saying that because normal healthy, what I'll say, ego, is based on real achievements, Then it's impervious to the minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as we go through life. So she says, normal, again, I'll call healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are in our self interest and is associated with genuine self respect.

One can think of it as something that's inside of us. So if you think of it that way, it is when you do things and you learn new talents or skills or you help someone or you build something or you develop something, then that I think it should. And this is the healthy version of shooting on someone. It should cause you to feel a sense of positive self regard. So that's the concept of healthy ego. Or what she said used to be known as healthy narcissism.

Is that it's built off of the things that you do that you feel confident about. And here's, I don't know, any thoughts? And I've got a, I've got a hot, the second part of this will make sense as well. No, I'm following. Okay, so here's where it makes sense. Now the opposite, she says, of normal healthy narcissism. So I'll say the opposite of a healthy ego. Is pathological defensive narcissism. This is the one that we're familiar with.

So she says, this is a defense against feelings of inferiority. The person dons a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world that they are special. But inside, the person feels very insecure about their actual self worth. So you really start looking at the insecurity of a real narcissist. So she says, this facade of superiority is so thin, it's like a helium balloon, one small pinprick will deflate it. So this makes the person hypersensitive.

to minor slights that somebody with healthy narcissism, so healthy ego, would not even notice. Instead, somebody with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded, takes any form of disagreement as criticism, and then is likely to lash out and devalue anybody that disagrees with them. They're constantly on guard trying to protect their status. So she says pathological narcissism can be thought of a protective armor that's on the outside of somebody.

So when I think back to the time that I was in 10 years in the computer industry before I became a therapist, I think I was more of this, I had more of that pathological defense of narcissism because I didn't know what I didn't know. And so then I pretended that I knew things and those around me that actually knew them knew that I was blowing smoke. I was going to say full of garbage, right?

And so then if somebody then said, you don't know what you're talking about, then I was, I would say, well, you don't know what you're talking about. But then once I found. The second career 20 years ago, therapy, and I love it, everything about it. And it's, and so if I go back to that concept of healthy ego, that it's based on your actual accomplishments and it's stable because you've assimilated it into your self image.

So every time I'm reading something or I really learned about acceptance and commitment therapy or stages of faith or emotionally focused therapy, or I know those, I feel confident about those. So then if somebody says I disagree with you, I can sit in that healthy ego and say, tell me more. But if I don't really know what I'm talking about, then my insecurity or my immaturity is going to lash out and say, yes, I do. You don't know what you're talking about. You see where I'm going with that?

Yeah. And there's no curiosity there. No curiosity. It's just like, I know better than you. It's very defensive. And that's where I feel like the, the ego of the narcissist, it is just paper thin. And so if you have a, an opinion that is different from theirs, then they think, oh, you're telling me that I'm wrong and that you're right. And now they must. Like black and white. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's where the pathological defensive narcissism comes in.

And then what's cool about having that healthy ego is the more that you admit the things that you know. And you're going to also acknowledge the things that you don't know? I forgot to check the sound. Okay. So, so at that point though, the more that you're telling someone and they're saying, What do you think about something? And if you say, Oh, I really don't know, but then they're going to trust that when you say, I do know this, they can trust you. They can rely on that.

So if you're in a relationship with somebody, and if you always have an opinion about everything, and you think that you know, Then over time your, your partner, your spouse is going to think, okay, I don't really, I can't trust this person. Yeah. Okay.

All right. What are, we have questions? Yeah, we have a few. Okay, let's do it. Okay. Okay. Jessica said, I feel like I drift away from the person who I want to be and then have to fight to get it back. If I was right off the bat, that's probably very normal. Yeah, it's super normal. I was just like, that's probably. It's a really beautiful way to say it too, I think. Yeah. Yeah. But I would guess that that's. I would love if Jessica's if you can give any examples too, that would be great.

I would love to hear those. I feel like that's part of the thing where you're, when you are growing, it's uncomfortable and you feel maybe off or you feel weird because you are changing and growing and so it's like I get that that's, it's kind of a drawback. Yeah. It's hard to push past that.

Well, and then, and then picture too, if you're in a relationship with somebody that is not doing their own work and let's say all of a sudden you say, I'm going to start going to the gym, or I want to run a 5K or a half marathon, and if your partner is not working on themselves, then I think that's where, then, will they be supportive, or will they say who do you think you are all of a sudden?

And then make you feel small, put you down, and then you start to say, okay, I don't even know if it's worth it to pursue this kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But yeah, I would imagine that's, I feel like I've felt that, so I think that's normal. Shaya or Shaya? Not sure I am scared. I'm the only unlovable person in this world. Oh, girls tell me I'm ugly. Oh, okay. Those girls are immature. Yeah. We don't want those girls then. That's no, that's a them thing. That is a them thing.

That's their problem. And they, that's not on you. You, you know what stinks about that too is let's talk about, I got a theory here too. So in almost any group family system that's immature. We'll put it that way. And I think most. Let's say a group of, I don't know if they're teenage girls or how old they are. But they almost need a scapegoat to make themselves feel better. Yeah, it's projecting insecurity onto someone else.

Yeah, and it's almost like everybody gangs up and says, Well, at least we are better than this one person. And so, if that person And they'll keep doubling down on that to make themselves feel better. But it's not a reflection on that person. No, it's a reflection on their immaturity. And then if you leave that group, which is not a bad thing to go find friends that are that will treat you better. They will find a new scapegoat, which is the fascinating thing.

So that's where I want you to know it's not a you thing. And here's something that I have no research to back up, but I've been doing this for 20 years and I'm convinced that the scapegoat in a family or the scapegoat in a group eventually becomes the transformational character. Meaning that if you're still, if you're still in that narcissistic family system or group. then you're still fighting and vying to get validation.

So you're willing to sell yourself out, you're willing to not stand up for someone else in the group, and that will cause you to further be viewed as the scapegoat. So at some point, the scapegoat recognizes that I'm not going to get my validation here, and now they have to go out on their own hero's journey, and that's where I believe transformational figure.

They're the ones that have the best chance to figure things out, because the people that are stuck in that narcissistic family system, Are all just vying for validation and attention and it's all based out of their insecurity. I know, I've never, actually I've never put that one out there before. Yeah, so it's like, know that it's not you, and that if anything, this is giving you You've got the best chance.

Yeah, this is giving you an opportunity to do better things and to grow and change and basically kind of show those people that they're Yeah. I know it's so easy to say that if somebody's saying that you're ugly or you're not attractive or you're, that it's easy to say, Oh, just find new friends. So I know that we've talked about this.

I know that it's not that easy to do that, but this is one of those things where, like we talked about earlier, planting this in your implicit memory or what it feels like to be you of just hearing Uh, say that you do not deserve that. They are immature and insecure. That is a them issue. You are so lovable. You are. And there are people out there. Because you exist. That's as simple as it is. Right?

Yeah. So it is your journey now to find those people that you really connect with because it's funny when we find friendship friendships when we're young and those are the friendships that often they're often the ones that we think are defining us. It's because we geographically live around people. And so then we go on a bus and go to the same school. And so I guess we're friends.

But we don't even necessarily have the same interest and the same values and the same likes and dislikes and little kids by nature are little narcissists walking around all egotistical and, and everything is about them. So they lack the ability to really be curious or have empathy about others to others.

So one of the best things that you can do, I think, is when you get into high school or you get into college, you find groups and clubs that you really like, you find like minded people that will be. They will reciprocate the friendships and your relationships. And that will see you for who you are. See you for who you are. And not use you to project their own insecurities.

Because that's the problem is that if you're finding people that have, they're like minded with like interest, like minded is a stretch too because that could even be a little, maybe a little culty. You know? But, but I think that's Not in a scary way. No, no, similar interest though, Then then you can, it's easier to be yourself because you're having these shared experiences, you kind of speak the same Yeah. Lingo, that sort of thing. Yeah, so, thank you for, for asking that.

They said, so much, you have no idea how many lives you touch. Oh, that's nice. That's tender. Um, and then someone said I was a scapegoat my entire life, it wasn't until I started therapy and the healing journey. Thank you! K. There's a couple more. And, Wait, that one gave me the chills for some reason. And then someone convinced my family they were in the wrong, things are getting better. K. Good for you.

Good for you for doing taking the steps to do the healing and not just accept the situation. Okay, now I'm picturing some merch that I'll announce and never follow through on, something about scapegoats unite or something like that. Cause yeah. That's, yeah. Sid, you got something? Look how happy Olive the dog looks right now. Yeah, we have some, we have some questions. There's like questions that you guys have.

Okay. Um, okay, going back a little bit, BriBri, can you, is BPD bipolar or borderline? Borderline. Borderline. Okay. Okay. Can you have borderline personality disorder and not How does not, I'll just say, not turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms? It's a great question. Let me see. Does that mean you do poopy behavior? No. Oh. No. No. Like not do things that would harm you. I got it.

When you edit this on YouTube, can you do put a little bell sound in there, like ding ding, like when you got that, that was cool to watch. Like I like, okay. It's a great question. So, just like when I'm talking about narcissistic personality disorder, I believe that the people that would fit into the true narcissistic. personality disorder category, the belief is 3 to 5%. That's pretty small.

But then I say we're all emotionally immature, so that we have these narcissistic traits or tendencies, but then when we're aware of them, we can now, we can grow and we can move past them. So I think the same thing is with borderline or histrionic or antisocial personality disorder. They're all in the same cluster of personality disorders. So the person that's struggling with borderline personality disorder I just think so often they are unseen, unloved, unheard, unsupported.

And so, the Siren Song of the Borderline, there's a book that most therapists have called I Hate You, Don't Leave Me, and so it is those extremes, but I've worked with enough people and I, I am gonna try to interject a little bit of hope there, because if it's true, borderline personality disorder I would doubt that you're here, and you're asking that question, because that means you're aware and you're working on it.

I'm saying that like, you are amazing that you are here saying, hey, if I have borderline, you're amazing. Is it this way? I would imagine you have borderline traits and tendencies because you're trying to improve and get better And you're trying to take your own control in the situation and not just fall into what? maybe It's typically like the stigma of it almost or like totally, you know, yeah What everyone else does just because you've been Diagnosed or categorized. Categorized.

I think that's a great word. I think so often it's categorized and people haven't necessarily gone and got a diagnosis. But that doesn't define every action of your life from here on out. So if you're, no, so if you're turning to those unhealthy coping mechanisms, I would really check in on, look at your, do you feel connected with your family or your parents or are you in a healthy relationship? Or this goes back to the work that I do with people that are struggling with addiction.

I just, I always start from a place of. People are turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms and I've got these five voids I talk about where they don't feel connected in their, their marriage or their relationship. If they're a parent, they don't feel connected with their kids or had a parent or their faith, their health and their career.

And those could even be school health, but those things are the things that when people don't feel connected in those areas, they often turn to the unhealthy coping mechanism. Yeah. So I like to acknowledge that. Okay, we're going to. We're going to start working on where do you find connection? Where do you find community? Where do you feel like you are seen or understood?

And I find that a lot of people that, that struggle with borderline traits and tendencies, um, are often, they're in relationships, whether it's in the family or in their personal relationships, where someone is basically telling them that, hey, this is your, you're acting out, you're immature, you're borderline, you're, and then that person's having to defend something that they might even believe is true.

Yeah. Yeah. So this is where I would love for you to do a deep dive on find my virtual couch podcast and look up anything that is my name, virtual couch and acceptance and commitment therapy. Because one of the best places you can start is that you're not broken and you're human. And so you feel and think the way you do because you do. And when other people are telling you how you're supposed to think and feel, that is a them thing. Right?

And so start to find the things that really make you feel like a sense of purpose and value. And know that even when you're starting to do those, it isn't like everybody around you is going to jump up and cheer. Because most likely they're going to not be as supportive as they need to be. So that's hard to then take all that on yourself, but that's one of the best things that you can do. Okay, going back to, I don't know if it's Shea or Shia, I'm so sorry, but I like your post on HSP.

I'm a boy with HSP and it's very embarrassing. I just want to say, no, it's not. No, it's pretty cool. Not to tell you Wait, wait, wait, wait, we just, we just told, wait, we just told him he was wrong. How dare you feel the way you do, HSP Shea? All I mean is feeling things big is such an incredible thing. And I genuinely think if everyone in the world could feel big, feel things big. And be aware of other people, things would not suck so bad all the time.

It's such a good trait, and it's such a beautiful thing to be able to feel, and feel things fully. And it's nothing to be embarrassed about, is all I'm saying. I'm not saying you're wrong for saying that, or feeling that. But, it's something that can be embraced fully, and sets you up for deeper connection, and a more meaningful life.

The ability to empathize and show up for people and show up for yourself and just be more aware of everything around you So it's not a bad thing and it's not something to be embarrassed about. Yeah, but we hear you if you are feeling embarrassed Let me know that initially we talked about this. Yeah, totally and I did I initially like when I Like I've been told my feelings are too much.

I've been told it's like a lot to deal with or things like that and so I it definitely started out as a negative thing and started out something that did feel like Like, okay, something's wrong with me, I'm too much, this is a bad thing, but you have the power to kind of shift that mindset and view it as something that can be so good and healing and helpful. Yeah. Okay. That's all I got. Oh, it's so good.

So actually, I'm recording a podcast tomorrow where I'm going deep into, in the comments on the video that I think got the most views on Instagram and TikTok over the last couple weeks about HSP. That there were a lot of people that felt so seen and understood and there were others that just, I almost called them in my mind drive by comments where they're just saying it's autism, or it's your, yeah.

And so I've got so much, I have to tell you, I've, I talked to Sydney, I would call you my producer. She's saying, Hey, old man, get the thing recorded and I can't stop writing about it. But so here's just a little sneak preview from the notes that I'm recording tomorrow. And it goes back to Elaine Aron who first researched high sensitivity back in 1991. She found that being, again, highly sensitive, it's not a disorder, it's a natural trait. And there's a big distinction there.

So, if you look at a personality disorder, that's why the significance of when I say that narcissistic personality disorder. is 3 to 5 percent of the population because it's a disorder view of a per of personality. But if you look at something that's a trait, so, highly sensitive person is thought to be between 15 and 20 percent of the population, and it's through a hundred different species in nature. So, you they find these little super highly sensitive fruit flies.

Those guys gotta be adorable, right? But here's what I got for tomorrow, though, that I think is that it says, I really think that then if you see that widespread presence then it suggests that being highly sensitive, honestly, must serve a very important evolutionary purpose or it would not be around at this point with those high of numbers. It might not feel like an advantage right now, especially when you feel overwhelmed.

But I think a lot of times it's again, it goes back to if you find yourself in a healthy relationship with somebody that appreciates that sensitivity. then it really does become, cliche alert here super, a superpower. Because if you, if you identify that something isn't, it serves an evolutionary purpose, then there's some sort of survival advantage that is in that trait, which I think is really fascinating. So when, in my notes, I jotted down.

So in the case of having a high sensitivity, if you have some members of the population who are more attuned to these subtle changes in the environment, then it benefits the whole group. It's just that you've got a bunch of. I was going to say jerks or whatever that are in charge of the group that aren't willing to look or listen to the highly sensitive people.

Because, so I found some cool data that said way back in the day it was like having these natural scouts for, or it was like having early warning systems within the population. So HSPs tended to notice very subtle changes in weather patterns potential dangers, social dynamics before others did. And in ancient times Then the HSPs heightened awareness to help communities prepare for threats or where others might have, I don't know, just not seen things until it was too late.

And and I looked into the animal kingdom and HSPs would even notice subtle changes in, in animal behavior suggesting. and approaching storm. I mean, all this stuff that's real, the shift in the barometric pressure or pick up intention in a neighboring group before some conflict erupts or the deeper processing of these emotional cues of the HSP, it can give you or group more time to prepare or adapt. And so it was viewed as a, it was awesome back in the early days.

So I think we've done a horrible job of valuing the HSP. Is HSP due to something from infancy or early childhood? Yes. Would you care to say more about that? So that is one that I like. There's some really good comments. Really good comments in the comments of one of the videos in particular that I just talked about. There's just continuing information coming out.

So, I mean, I'm neuroscientist, but I had always been told that it was more about the heightened mirror neurons, reading the room when you were a little kid, if you're having to manage your parents emotions, if you're used to tension and so your cortisol response is high and your fight or flight response, you're right on the edge. So you just become very good at noticing subtle changes.

But then you can also find some data that says that, okay but it's this, you have to have the genetic predisposition for that. And then find yourself in that position to unlock the, your epigenetics profile to then have, be highly sensitive because you can also find brothers, sisters that grew up in a family where one of them is highly sensitive and the other one is just not. So there is more. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of variables there too. Yeah. But here, okay. Can I say this?

So this is the thing that I don't want to say, here, look, this is how mad I get. Oh man, I'm frustrated. So I can't say that. Calm down, please. I gotta chill, right? But, what I didn't, I didn't appreciate in the comments, and I took very great exception, but were these drive by just Passive aggressive comments that then dismissed the highly sensitive person.

Yeah, so I came up with something that I put there in the comments And I I said forgive the copy and paste answer see I still wanted to be nice But I said it's just too easy for somebody to simply say HSP and ASD autism spectrum disorder are one in the same So I said here's what I will share with every comment that says they are first of all I appreciate you taking the time to comment So I'm still going to be a gentleman but then I said I have an

episode coming out about this later this week, but there are so many differences. There are so many differences between HSP and somebody that has Autism Spectrum Disorder. So stay tuned for more, but here's the key that, uh, it's this, there's so many that it's, that people who aren't HSP can easily put them in the same bucket and then they just move on. That's why I called it like this drive by comment. So it's like somebody yelling out the window you're autistic. And then they just drive away.

And the person that's highly sensitive is wait, am I? Yeah, now I gotta go figure that out. Yeah. And so you, you drop this bomb and you, you run away and sprint away. Yeah. So I said it's so much easier for the person that is not highly sensitive to do that than for them to actually have to understand the differences and to learn something that they don't even know that they don't know.

Because now we're back into my world of emotional immaturity where it's like, well, I know what it is even though I'm not HSP. That's one of the most ridiculous things that I think when you really break it down. When somebody says, well, I, I don't, if somebody says, I don't even think it's a real thing, that should not even elicit a response, right?

But then if you say it to the highly sensitive person, that's the person that's going to feel like, oh man, I need to, again, I'm going to go on some month long deep dive to see if that guy might be right. That guy's a jerk, right? Anyway, no, so stay tuned. The episode I have, I think currently my notes are, if I'm looking at this, oh, 23 pages. So I'm going to have to trim that thing down a little bit. But I have so much and so many examples coming, so thank you for that comment.

Okay, Dennis said, isn't it the same with, is NPD narcissists? Yeah. Whatever many variables. Yeah. Not just the childhood thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Dennis. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, Dennis, thank you. Yeah, so the it's on a spectrum. And that's where I know for a fact that I had narcissistic traits and tendencies or extreme emotional immaturity.

And go, please go binge Waking Up to Narcissism, the podcast, because Early on, that's where I wanted to make the clear distinction that, about narcissistic personality disorder, small percentage, but we're all emotionally immature until we're not, so we have to, but that takes sitting with discomfort, self confrontation, not throwing out these drive by comments and somebody's video. That sort of thing.

Yeah. Hey, this might be me being highly sensitive, but I feel like their intentions could just be like, if they have autism, then they don't want someone to like, be getting misdiagnosed. You know, like, it's like, Oh, you're, you're nice. They don't know what they don't know. Yeah. Even if it seems maybe like, aggressive to you, that could totally not be their intention. That's fair. That is very fair. I hope everybody can hear that.

So, Sid's saying that maybe somebody who, duh, is on the autism spectrum is saying Wait, say it again? Like, who's this guy saying all this hoopla when, like, this person has autism and now they're gonna be misdiagnosed? Yeah, so, so they're worried It comes from a place of empathy, but it's not being displayed correctly. See, that's really funny. That's true.

Because if I just need the word autism in all caps, then I'm not looking at it like that person's saying, Oh, don't misdiagnose this person, they might be autistic. I see it like, wrong, but which is a me thing. And I like what you're saying, because again, we go back to, we do project the way that we think onto everyone else because everybody else must think this way as well.

Yeah, I was talking to Mike last night about that, about people like they get scammed and it's like, you just assume that everybody's not going to scam people because if you're not going to scam somebody, but then that person is doing the same thing. They're like, well, we would all do it if we could. So it's a battle of projections. Sorry, I'm trying to find Well, that's a great comment, man. Yeah, that's such a great comment. I'm trying to find Oh, thanks, man. We need to go back to Jessica.

Okay. Oh, I was gonna ask you guys Sss. Forgot what it was. And Jessica was the Or, where did it go? I lost it again. She was the one saying, I feel like I drift away from the person who I want to be and then I have to fight to get it back. Mm hmm. And then you asked if she could give examples. Oh, good. Thanks, Jessica. No, I didn't. I never said that. Okay, and then she said, she said, I feel like there are certain things that cause me to not feel important or good in my own skin.

And then said, self alignment state, feeling fades, disconnected, makes it hard to get back to alignment again. A disconnect can, and I think that's, I appreciate that too, because what can we, yeah, okay. I feel, that's correct, I feel like the world around me is not made for me. People in their own world all the time and don't acknowledge that. Okay, that's true. What do you guys think about that? It's a, I feel like I'm feeling things.

Okay. Well, because that part, can you read that again, Syd? The last part, I feel like the world around me is not made for me. People in their own world all the time and don't acknowledge me. I feel like that's when, like, selfishness is a bad thing. Right. Well, and this is where I think often there's I kind of like in my mind I call it this for lack of a better word, this societal or family template of this is the way things are supposed to be.

And so the people maybe like Jessica that have other interests and other beliefs and other thoughts and hopes and dreams feel like they don't fit in because they don't fit into that societal template. But that's okay. But I think that too often the people that don't fit that template.

Or not, they don't speak up or they don't really have a voice or so they do feel like what's wrong with me or nobody really understands me and they're out because, and okay, I guess now, I like that we're saying this, I get to talk to people who feel that way and so then I, I often think, I really, often I think, man, I wish I could just match people up in my practice because there's so many people that are feeling similar things. Yeah, but then feel like.

Yeah, and they're trying to, and they're trying to show up a certain way to fit in with society. Well, and it feels like, because I relate to what she's saying, it feels like we're not in the majority because that kind of behavior isn't praised in our society. In our society, it's like, you're praised if you're aggressive and if you're like, firm and I don't know, if you're selfish, really. The bad version of it, right?

People who win a lot of the time, and so other people who don't feel like that don't speak up, and it's But I do, I genuinely feel like there are, we hopefully are the majority, but like, there's so much more. I feel like there's so many more good people around than we think there are. They're just not the ones that are speaking up because they don't, you know, need to be famous or need to be heard.

Yeah. Well that's what you've brought awareness into me of when we get a video that really goes well. That then the, almost the little communities that form in the comments even, where people feel seen and understood. And I have clients of mine that do that. They found their community in, in, yeah, like comments on videos or in, in apps. I yeah.

Well, I think the thing is, realistically, if you look at a lot of those people that you're saying maybe do fit that template or do things aggressively or do like whatever we're saying, that majority is, there's a good chance that you don't actually want to be like those people. Yeah. If that's fair. Yeah. And so it's like the fact that, It's maybe not the majority and maybe it feels like you're the only one feeling that way. That doesn't That's not a bad thing.

I feel like if anything that's more props to you for Living in your own world and doing your own thing because that's like Your journey and that's what life is supposed to be. It's not supposed to just be Follow this template do everything the same as everybody else.

Totally, which is it's almost like the easier way out But it does feel it can't feel lonely or you can't feel isolated or like you are the only one in that position But then what you're saying as being the therapist, it's like, just know that there's plenty of people out there. There's so many people. Yeah, they're just not, yeah, you have to do more work about it or being super loud about it or making it known that they also feel that way.

But like you're saying, you know, plenty of people that feel that way. Yeah. And I think again, not to go off on a tangent here, but this is why I can't stand.

And you guys can speak to this, but the online dating world these days. Cause, I gotta do my bit, you gotta, three pictures, one by a waterfall, one with a golden retriever, and you got a bandana, and then hold your niece or nephew, and a clever movie quote, and there's your profile, this is who I am, and that's just ridiculous, because it's hard to then say, these are the things I really like or don't like.

Yeah, so that people can then connect at a better level initially and then I think people go into their dates and they are like Thinking it goes back to who do I need to be right now to get this person to like me? So neither person is being very horrible way to have to live your life, and I'm saying that you've done it You've done it, right? You did that for years. Same, okay.

And I would just cater to whatever person or whatever group of people I was With because I felt like I had to fit that mold or show up in a certain way Yeah, and it's so much more freeing and you grow so much more When you just live your life as who you are. Yeah, because then you're playing that game of where somebody is saying, Do you like this kind of movie? And you're like, Oh man, do you like it? Like, if you like it, I like it. Yeah, versus saying, Oh, no, I think it's crazy.

Which is okay. Yeah, it's great to have an opinion and it's great to have conversations and not just live the life you think everybody needs you to live. Which goes back to, I need to think that I'm fitting this template so that I'm normal, air quote. Right. And so the person that is really But they're going to sense the people that are fitting the template being normal or just being fake. Oh, absolutely. So, not to be rude, but it's like there's a whole thing there.

Well, there is, because I think maybe that's too why I can get the most air quote again normal looking person in my office who then will let me know the things that they really wish they could do, the kind of person that they would like, the shows they watch. But then they're saying, and I love this phrase, they're like, I mean, I know I shouldn't. What is she? Oh, just scratching the floor. Scratching the carpet. Okay, does that mean there's like a dead body under there or something?

Like, under the foundation of the house? Oh, remember that was always my bit when the dogs would come in? I'm like, what's that girl? Somebody's in danger? Yeah. And you guys never laughed. Sid. You guys were scared. Hey, wait. I like to laugh when you say things that aren't funny sometimes. Okay. Jessica said, I feel like when I don't fit the template, I don't feel aligned. Yeah. Oh, yeah, Jessica.

I feel like there's a shift there though in the mindset that can happen, which I don't, you're the therapist, so take that away.

Okay, it's a, well, it's a great one because the fact that you're aware of that, it, we moved from, one of my favorites, didn't know what I didn't know, now I know, but I don't know what to do. And it's one of the most difficult and challenging and places you will be in the longest on your grow, growth to becoming more emotionally mature. And growing is uncomfortable. It's super uncomfortable. So it's going to be uncomfortable. Yeah. And that all goes back to then feeling like that's when you.

fall back from the person you're trying to be. Like it all, yes. It all checks out. So right now it feels uncomfortable because you're aware and that awareness though is part of the process of becoming. So now that you're aware, you will, like Mackie says, probably have these moments where you revert back to wishing you didn't even know and just trying to figure out How do I need to do this? Or who do I need to be? Because now you have to be uncomfortable, but that's to grow.

Yeah. And to heal, and to do good things. Oh growth. So it's worth it, but it's uncomfy. So growth comes through the discomfort, and the more that you are recognizing, and then finding out what you really like, who you are, the things you care about, the fact you're aware of it. Again, it will be uncomfortable because you'll start to feel like other people aren't that way around me.

But the more you're doing and being, the more you will start to, there's, you'll find little bits and pieces of people that maybe have similar interests that you never would have known had you not recognized. I don't like the person I'm trying to be and then eventually you start to interact with those people and now we move from I Didn't know what I didn't know to now. I know but I'm not sure what to do I don't do it very often. This is super uncomfortable to okay.

Well, that was nice now I do it more than I don't but I jump back into I'm still not sure what to do Eventually you find your way in that third box here of like now I'm doing more than I didn't before and then eventually you just Just become. You are. You found your people. You are good. When people tell you that they don't like the way that you do or say things, you say, that is so adorable. Tell me what you don't like about me. Cause I'm curious. Cause I'm good.

And I think in that you'll end up feeling aligned with like your true self. So even though it feels maybe like it's the opposite of that, right now, you're on your journey. That's basically just a sign that you're doing something right. Again growth comes from discomfort and okay. Run down this almost every time I can. We are wired to avoid discomfort, and we seek certainty. Continually, we want to know. I want to know if this is the right thing to do, because if it is, then I'll do it.

Well, the reality is, you don't know if it's the right thing to do or not until you start doing it. And then, the unfortunate part is, often, then we want to ask other people, Do you think this is the right thing for me to do? Even though that's somebody else, other than me, that doesn't even know what it feels like to be me, and why I'm doing the things I'm doing. Okay, wait, she said, wait, did you say revert to who I think I need to be?

I think we were saying you revert back to, basically, the template. Yeah. Basically, who you think. Other people want you to be, not who you are actually trying to be. And it's normal to take a step back. I would say it's like, this is the good version, the cliched two steps forward, one step back. Yeah, it's part of, it's not linear. It's part of that process. But reverting back to, I think that's what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The person you don't want to be, basically.

Yeah, we'll still go back there because it's easier to go back to this place. And that's what you've known for however long. And so it's like, it's not just gonna, you can't just flip a switch.

I mean, and I'll say 10 years in the computer software industry, I go back to night school, I get my master's in counseling and I start becoming a therapist and it was so awkward that I kept going back into the computer industry thinking, okay, maybe the therapy thing was actually a bad idea, and then I'd do it again. You're like your default setting in a sudden I was like, no, no, I like this, I like this.

And all of a sudden I would have some client or some case where I thought, well, who am I? What am I doing? And now I'm back there, you know what? It was nice to get my master's and maybe I'll write a book someday and I'll have some letters by my name. I'm going back to the computer industry, but at that point, that's not who I was for sure. And so then, but then eventually then I'm the therapist now and I don't ever go back to the computer industry.

And then eventually that just becomes, and I just am. And now that process is now somebody is trying to tell me they don't think. Because early on, when I would tell people I'm being a therapist, I, somebody would say, I don't know if I believe in therapy, and I would spend 20 minutes trying to defend therapy for the, for Mr. Therapist. I don't know. Now, if they say I don't know if I believe in it, I'm like, okay. Okay, do what you want.

Yeah, yeah, but when you eventually need it, then, I might be full. Okay do you remember Skylar from last time? Yeah, I do.

She said, hey, just letting you guys know, I'm probably gonna leave my boyfriend. I thought we fixed it. He's just not supportive consistently and he tells me I gaslight him and I act like a narcissist. Skylar, I'm proud of you. Yeah, Skylar, I remember you well. Yeah, I think you made the whole show last time.

And what's wild about that is almost every single, I can still remember one of the first times I did a podcast episode on gaslighting and there were two women I was working with at the time that were in narcissistic or emotionally immature relationships and they Sent the podcast to their immature partners who literally within about two hours because both the women texted me both the guys said Oh, yeah, that's exactly what you're doing to me.

And it is it's projection and what it is is when you express yourself to somebody that is immature they know the buttons to press to get you to react and so this is the part where you need to know that You're okay And that when you say, well, I, this is how I feel, this is what I think you're doing. It's almost inevitable, I call it parroting, that they're going to go, well, that's exactly what you do. And now I'm going to defend myself.

But in reality, this is where, if you can be curious, well, tell me more, give me some examples. I don't have to, you're just doing it. Don't just let them take the cocktails like that. Yeah, because they're just, they're just throwing that up against the, against it. But Skylar, well done. I mean, that's hard, though. It's so hard, but I think that it'll be a thing a couple, like Maybe even six months, a year from now, whatever.

It's you'll look back and be like, I know when I left my bad relationship and I'm not saying that this is exactly what happened, but literally it was like two weeks and all I was, I like snapped out of it and then realized how bad the relationship was and how much better I was on my own and it like, I I still, it was just crazy to feel okay again and be like, Oh, I actually, Can I like we said it's time.

Yeah, but it will it could and it's like then you'll still years go by and you still maybe we'll have to come up or whatever, but it will Ultimately be better Skylar if you can reach out to me Contact at Tony overbay comm and just tell me that this is who you are and then I'll send you a handful of podcasts I think will help Some things about trauma bonds, some things about this differentiation in immature relationships and those are things that maybe you can go to if

you're starting to ruminate or worry or start to wonder, feel bad about yourself. How can I get my wife back? We've been separated for some time now. I fell off the wagon and I destroyed everything we built and she says she needs space to heal. Okay, I, man, thank you. Respectfully, she needs space to heal. And the best thing you can do is give her that space. It's hard though, and this is so hard because I feel that pain. I work with a lot of men as a male therapist.

And this is a pop, a part of the population I do work with often where the person, okay, says he fell off the wagon again. And I know he's already feeling bad about that, because every person that is struggling with any kind of unhealthy coping mechanism, I really believe that when they say, I'm never doing it again, they believe they won't ever do it again until they do. The intention there is good. Yeah, right?

But then, if your wife is finally saying, I've had enough, if you are now begging her to take you back you're asking her, in essence, to to mother you, to then be your emotional caretaker, and that's something that she's probably felt like she's been doing for a long time. And so as difficult as it is, like Mackie's saying, if she's saying, this is what I need, if this is the If she's asking for the time to heal, yeah, you need to give her the time to heal and then go from there.

Yeah, well I'm saying Like, keep doing your thing.

Well, that is, but it's like Literally, but, and keep doing your thing and take the time to You have to continue to work on the things that you feel you can't sit there and just like ruminate and worry you have to go to therapy if you're find a support group You have to do the work right now because that's the that's the thing that will then allow you to deal with your own discomfort And that is what is going to, if there's a chance to have her feel more safe around

you, is Yeah, like if there's potential for you guys to come back together. Yeah, there has to be some It's only gonna happen if she gets her space to heal, and you continue to do the good things. Yeah. And then, I mean, not if that's not what's meant to be in the end, then at least you've both been doing the work, and you will have continued to heal and get back to yourself. And then find what is meant for you. Yeah. And get back in the wagon. Yeah. Stay in the wagon, cute and comfortable.

Why does nobody ever talk about getting back in a wagon? Get back in the wagon. Okay, true story. When I was in Tennessee, I was probably four or five years old and I'll never forget this to this day. I'm pulling this little kid. His first name was Blue. My mom and dad have told me that this is a, this is an acute memory.

I'm pulling him around in a wagon, I dump the wagon, he falls out, I run home because I think I'm in trouble, found out later he broke his arm, but he was little, I don't think he could talk. You just left him there? Yeah, I think my parents knew though, I think they ended up talking to Blue's parents and stuff, but I just Blue never walked again. Oh. Okay wait, quick, Jessica wants good books about psychology, just good, top three that come to mind.

I mean, Happiness Trap, Happiness Trap by Russ Harris, it's it's one of the best books to start with acceptance and commitment therapy. I bought copies for both my daughters, and I'm sure that they're deep into them by now. 14 pages! Sid? That title looks real good! Ayoyora. Ew. Never do that again. Never do that again. But that start there, from an acceptance and commitment therapy point of view, I think that's really important.

I'm trying to think of, I, there's this, there's a lot What's the confidence one you do? The Confidence Gap, that's similar, it's the same author. My first thought is just, it's any of the acceptance and commitment therapy books because I just think you need So really Happiness Trap is Just start with Happiness Trap. And then, and honestly, and same.

Email me when you're done with happiness trap and then we'll talk and I will get a list I should get a book club list together Yeah, because there's some really good ones about internal family systems and no bad parts and then so it's like I feel like it depends Yeah, there's good couples therapy ones that like yeah, there's a lot happiness trap is a great start And if you're like me and you never learned how to read, they have them with pictures, don't they? Yeah, they do. They do!

The Simple Happiness Trap book. It's nice. Which you took offense to though when I got it to you, right? Yeah, because I was like 20 like, here's this picture book for you. I was 21. Okay. And 2. Wait, you're only 23. Oh, you are? Literally in a couple days. Okay, but here's the thing though, look at you like, I was so offended you gave me this picture book, even though you've never read the book. I did, I read, I read like more than half of it from the picture book.

Okay. I like how passionate you are about that. I read almost half the comic book, old man. I did, give me some credit. It changed my life, right? Maybe it did. Maybe.

Okay, any thoughts on setting healthy boundaries with someone that keeps crossing them? Yeah, here, okay, let's do this one. This is good. Boundary versus ultimatum. First, check what your version of a boundary is. If you are saying, you can't do that anymore to the person, you are handing them your buttons to push. If you're saying, hey, you can't raise your voice like that. I need you to not do that in front of the kids anymore.

Then the first time that they get mad and they want to try to put you in that one down position Then they know that is the button to push so a boundary versus ultimatum ultimatum is you can't do that You need to stop doing that boundary is if you do that, then I will leave it's a me thing and that's the most powerful thing to learn about a boundary now When you're setting boundaries. I think initially you would think it's the other way around.

And that's what tripped me up at first when I was learning about boundaries. Because you think of an ultimatum and that's typically a And I told them, you can't do that anymore. And I'm sitting there thinking, the nurse is oh sure I can. Right. Yeah, really? Like you don't think I can do that? I'll do it in 10 minutes from now. But the boundary is basically turning it back to you. It's a you thing.

In the healthiest way where it's this is how I Can handle this and this is how I can show up in this.

Yeah sense and then almost leaving it open for them to then Respect that or not yes, and then boundary and know that it whether you said it in a good way or a bad way the Person that if you are in a position in your relationship where you're trying to figure out how to set boundaries They will be pushed just know that Because it's, again it's, that's the calling card of the emotionally immature is that if you have a boundary, they know what to do with that.

I know how to, I know how to knock this thing down and put you in the one down position. So it's almost like they're saying, please give me a boundary, because I will push and push and push that. Because you're handing them a list of Yeah, but it doesn't mean that it's the wrong, it's the right thing to do. But just know that there's probably going to be pushback and that's Yeah.

And then, and then honestly, I think about this all the time too, where think through your boundary because make sure it's something that you are willing to do. We, you watch parents do this all the time with kids. And it's so funny if you do that one more time, we're not going to Disneyland. And it's like, you know you're going to Disneyland. You have non refundable tickets. So now you're just showing your kid that you actually can get away with whatever you want.

So you do have to stand by it if you're going to put it in place. Yeah. And cause then again, knowing that they'll push, push and push. Yeah. Okay, we need to speedrun some stuff here. Okay, let's do, oh yeah, and then we'll wrap it up, right? Instead, watch out for the puzzle on the TikTok screen. Wait, was the book called The Happiness Trap? Yeah, by Russ Harris. Okay. The Happiness Trap. Are trauma bonds a theory? Oh! No!

No, I, go, again, this is one of those, Google, waking up the narcissism, my name. I know I have two episodes on it for sure, but the concept of intermittent reinforcement, that's, that is the fancy name for trauma bond and it is where the person that gives you the reward also delivers you the punishment. And it's a trip because it's the way we train like animals and stuff, where, okay here's a treat and then also get angry with the person. So then what do they, they just want that treat so bad.

And when you look at the concept of intermittent reinforcement. That it's it hits the same area of the brain like a drug and so you watch people that when that narcissist or emotionally mature withdraws from the relationship and Pulls back their attention or their affection. It leaves that other person craving it from them And so then they'll do whatever they can to get that To get that attention. So very real very real Okay back to Thomas. He's five months sober.

Whoa. Nice. That is that's big like really that's huge. Yeah I hope you're giving yourself props for that because that really is huge. And then he said he's confused cause she says she doesn't, or he doesn't call her. So maybe, maybe it's time to open up a conversation then with like, I think it's fair of you to ask for at least a conversation and approach it as I want to give you the space to heal and almost ask her for her boundaries. It's like, how can you show up?

Or how can both of you show up in a way that you'll both be okay with? I think that would be fair. So if I'm working with you Thomas, for example, because I've got two or three Thomas's currently And so they are there. We're working on them to stay present, to do the work that they're doing. We talk a lot about differentiation where you're trying to have a strong but flexible sense of self, not needing somebody else to tell you who you are.

You got to do, you got to do some really good work on learning how to self soothe or calm your own anxiety. That'll lead to a grounded response. I need to be able to stay grounded, not get too angry or loud and not play small. And that's what we're talking about right now, because when you start to realize, okay, I'm okay, I've got five months of sobriety. I know. That's the part where I know I'm okay. I know that I'm in a good position. Then I'm not going to play small either.

And then the fourth point of balance of differentiation is that it is growth through discomfort. I'm taking ownership of my stuff, not projecting it on my spouse, which maybe I did when I was more immature. And so when you, when you can come from this differentiated place, now you, you can ask for things in the relationship. Because now I'm not doing it to be manipulative, coercive, controlling, or just to get validation.

Now I know that this is what I think would be best for me and I think that we could make this work, so now I'm, I'm putting that out there. Now it has to be though, this is the key. It does have to be a little bit more outcome independent. So I'm saying it, but she still has the right to say, I'm still not ready. Right? Like I feel like it's just, it's opening up a conversation. So you both, so neither of you are in the dark thinking.

Yeah. So that she's not sitting there waiting for you to call and you're. sitting there fighting not to call because you're trying to respect that. This is a tough spot to be though.

A lot of the guys I work with one on one, this is what we're dealing with because then you can come from this differentiated place and reach out and say, Hey, I would love to know if we can begin couples therapy now, or I would like to be able to just talk once a week and just, we can talk about just logistics or just things that are unrelated to the marriage or But if she says, I don't want to, this is where being grounded comes into play. It's okay for her to not want to.

As a matter of fact, I would imagine that's one of those situations where she's probably testing a little bit for safety. Because if I freak out then, then I'm not safe and that means I'm not differentiated, I'm not grounded and I can't calm my own, uh, anxiety. And that's why I say that you have, that's the work that you have to do when you're working on yourself. Because if I now show up and I'm now saying I'm ready and all it takes is for her to say, I don't know if I am.

And then you get upset that you did not do the work. Right. Yeah. So yeah, that is a tough spot. Yeah. So I hope you're working with somebody that, that knows what they're doing as well. That'd be helpful. Ready? Yeah. My husband won't Wait, did you guys read this one? Wait, no, but can you pause for two seconds? Of course. Jessica, the virtual couch is his main podcast. Yeah. And then he also has Waking Up to Narcissism. And then we have one together called The Mind, The Mirror, and Me.

But if you just, even if you, like, if you look up Tony Overbay. Yeah, and virtual couch. All of his will come up. But the virtual couch is the biggest. That's his main. Yeah, and then Sydney and I had five episodes of Murder on the Couch that did phenomenally well. Yeah. And then we never did a sixth. So, there's that. Lots of episodes to catch up on. But anyways, go on. There's like 600 episodes actually. Yeah, free therapy. Pretty much.

Okay, Syd. My husband won't forgive me for small things, and I forgive him for big things. I feel like there was more. Oh, and his only excuse to all of it is feeling like I don't respect him. Sounds like he doesn't respect you. Amen. Well said, Syd. That one, that stuff, okay, admittedly.

Maybe it's just late, late Sunday night talking, but I mean, that, that is the sign of the immature, and I know that I don't know what their situation is, but this is the population I work with, and again, if he can project that I don't like, Yeah, I won't let you get away with these small things, it's the, then, so you are now in that one down position, and now you are trying to prove yourself for all of these little small things.

That are fairly insignificant when you know that you are willing to, yeah, to forgive the bigger things. And it goes back to that, that the emotionally immature person will just diffuse their discomfort, their anxiety, their immaturity into the relationship and that pathologically kind person, you, will then pick that up and I'll take it and I'll metabolize it and then I will figure out what to do with it. And meanwhile, he's just back to doing whatever it is that he wants to do.

Missionaries marry very young, grow up in two different cultures. That's what she said. That's like an addition. I believe, yeah. Yeah, that adds another layer to it. Especially, did she say young? Married young? Yeah, married young. That part, I go back to what we started with tonight. Gonna get my hand puppets out here. So we're two people, and we get married and we're codependent and we're enmeshed. Because we just, when we first get to know each other, we're just agreeing on everything.

We can have completely different. tastes, styles, likes, dislikes, but we're, and I believe again from a good place, it goes back to if I say I don't like scary movies and then she wants to date me, if she's she'll say. Yeah, I don't like him either. Even if she loves him, because then she's thinking, I don't know, maybe this isn't a big deal or so you just let you compromise on a lot of things because it just feels like the relationship is so good.

Then you start going through life and now you experience things, kids, finances, moving, careers, loss, all those. And those are the first time you're experiencing those situations as an adult. And then you are, they are giving you feelings and emotions. And now when you try to communicate that to your person and your codependent, you're enmeshed.

You're starting to try to have your experience and that makes this person feel insecure or their immaturity comes out and then they say things like You know the death by a thousand cuts stuff.

They're gonna now criticize you and now you're gonna okay You're right and go back into this enmeshment because what we're supposed to do is become differentiated Which is where one person ends the other begins but in the middle of that it's gonna be a fair amount of invalidation for a While so people that immature person is gonna continually try to get you back into enmeshment Because that's what they feel, that now they feel whole because they now can, they're in mesh and they

can put you in that one down position. But what we're trying to do is become two completely interdependent, differentiated people that have different experiences. Of course, especially different, they're different genders they're different, maybe different, come from different places. Yeah, straight different cultures. Yeah, so, so of course they're going to have different thoughts and feelings and opinions. And so it's the ability to be able to respect those and to really.

Express those that is going to really cause, it's going to help a couple be, real intimacy is having the courage to know the, you know, to be known by somebody else and to know that person. That takes a lot of courage because it's really uncomfortable. Okay, how many more do you want to do? We can just do a speed run real quick. Okay. Going into therapy, are we allowed to tell what the other person has done and said to us, or do we just speak about what we have done? That's a great question.

I'm fine. I want all the data and I think that this is one of those I think it's the, I want to just throw the, it into the more comfortable or competent the therapist is, the more that they can hold space for all of that information. I think it's a good therapist that is going to let you bring in whatever you want to bring in, especially early on in therapy. And if you're going to come in and you want to just be heard about the what you want to say about the other person.

Then who am I to say you can't do that? Right, so in a sense, it's whatever you need. It really, I'm, I'm very comfortable with that. And that'll lead to others. I know, that's right. Like, I feel like it'll all you'll end up doing both things. Yeah, and I'm not trying to say that if a therapist hears this and they say, I think that's wrong, it's like, no problem. I can understand.

It, why one would but it's where I, I want to start from a place where there's no wrong way to do therapy, especially initially when you're coming in, because if that's, if it takes a lot of courage to, to go to therapy. So if you're going to go in there and feel like you're not doing it right, that is not, that's a, that's the therapist issue. Like I need you to do it this way to make me feel better. Yeah. Or your first job, I guess, is just to show up.

Yeah. This girl or boy has been commenting a lot, so I want to help him out. Okay, I'm 34, been in my relationship for 13 years, married for 6, so I need help. Going into therapy, are we allowed to tell what the other person has done and said to us? Absolutely. There's a lot of stuff. Or do we just speak about what we have done? Okay. And then she said why is the adult still immature? I mean, I know we're all like that in ways, but full blown.

Can someone who's emotionally immature become more mature? And Why are we, though? It's because we weren't modeled emotional maturity. Oh, and he sits in denial and deflection. Yeah, and that's this is all so Oh, and Jessica's leaving. Bye, Jessica! Oh, bye, Jessica. This is all normal. I want to tell this person this is so normal and I'm not saying that in a way of please, don't worry about it, but just you're okay, you're normal.

And we, the reason I say that we're all immature until we're not is because we are, because there, we even have blind spots. I can think that I'm becoming more emotionally mature and one that I've honestly been, and I think you guys are starting to hear it in the family more, but I'm realizing I'm 55. I have a horrible relationship with money and finances because I don't believe I was necessarily modeled it well. Not, and I'm not saying that, Oh, my parents, cause they worked hard.

They struggled. They, they made more of themselves than I think they ever would have imagined. But I just don't think we ever learned how to, we didn't communicate about it very openly. So I don't, I didn't grow up knowing how to budget or, put, all those kinds of things. And so it's always just been, okay, we'll just do whatever we want and I'll try to work harder and make more and, to, to maybe my own detriment. I only mentioned that because that's an area that I realize now my immaturity.

Because I can tell myself that I just don't, I don't know. I just don't, I'm not good with money. That's an immature response. Yeah. Cause I can go figure that out. That's like emotionally mature. Or if, and I think that's the part where we're all emotionally immature because there's so many things that we don't know. And that we don't know that we don't know and we're unwilling to ask for help. And the immature way to show up with that is just to say, I, that isn't me.

Or, what we'll also say is, I could project, my immaturity and say that, Okay. Anybody that does well financially, they got, they just got a lucky break or anybody that is good at saving money. Well, they probably have like OCD or something, you know, I can do all those things from an immature standpoint. So becoming more emotionally mature is learning about who I am and how I show up in things and what I do to get rid of my discomfort.

and accepting the things that I know and the things that I don't know that I don't know. And so that's that whole process of becoming more mature. So there's probably places that there's blind spots for everybody of things. Dennis is learning how to budget at 54. Oh, he got me beat by a year. I can't even say I'm really learning how yet. I think I've been using this example for six months now, so I need to actually do it. Okay. Are there stages of grief after infidelity? Oh yeah.

Like a hundred percent. Yeah. That's a tough, we should do a whole. You're basically losing the. The person you or losing the version of the person you. That's a good way to put it. Thought you knew or thought you were with or 'cause they're doing something you never thought they would do. Yeah, we need to do a whole night on this one. That could be a whole thing because I do, 'cause they, the world of betrayal. Trauma is really interesting.

I would recommend if you go on the virtual couch, I did a episode of a podcast with my, one of my associates, Marla Christensen. Marla is a therapist. She just became a therapist recently. She was in a really unhealthy relationship. She, she's very open about this. And then she, we, I think we have a really strong conversation around the concepts of betrayal trauma because no one ever thinks they're going to find themselves in that situation to begin with.

And so when people get into relationships, they often just say, if that happened to me, I'm out. Yeah. But then when it, when that happens, there's so many more variables and then it's just not that easy. And so I just think that that needs a lot of work with somebody that knows how to help somebody through betrayal trauma. Oh, that scared me to death. Okay, so I'll just tell you, let me speed run this really quick.

Cause I, so what I do in my couples therapy when there are, when there's betrayal is the person wants to come in and typically the person that has been betrayed just wants They want answers.

They want to know they want just to know everything and here's and I'll I just I feel so strongly about this That they're thinking okay, if I can just hear everything then I'll know and then that will make me feel better And I can move on but then the person that has done the betraying Already feels really pretty bad most likely and there's obviously there's 75 percent that are really like, oh, no What did I do 25 percent that are like? Look, I said, I'm sorry. That's a you thing.

That's not the good version by the way. And so the person that's done the betraying, I think so often they're trying to almost forget about it themselves and they do this thing that's called a staggered disclosure. So they tell some, they tell their spouse a little bit of what happened and then their spouse just says, I need more, I need more, I need more. And finally they're like, okay, here's more. And so they're setting up this staggered disclosure.

And so when I get a couple in my office, then I immediately say we have to press pause because I guarantee that you guys don't know how to communicate effectively. Because most of us don't anyway, so we gotta stop, we're gonna use my four pillars of a connected conversation. We're gonna learn about differentiation, we're gonna kick the can of disclosure down the road a little bit. Because the people need to learn how to communicate first.

Because it is that lack of communication and that lack of connection that most likely played a role in where they're at now. Which can seem really invalidating at first for the person that was betrayed. But we'll get there, so please find help for betrayal trauma. Yeah, anything else? Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to get crazy lenses asking a question, but I missed the first part. I don't know what the first part was, so I just have to repeat it. But it's something about being scared to drive again.

I think maybe she said something about an accident. For sure.

I would recommend finding like a trauma related therapy. So I do a little bit of EMDR. And so there are certain types of EMDR or it's called our accelerated resolution therapy or brain mapping or brain spotting. Or there's some of these things that work a little more with trauma. And yeah, not, not just talk therapy talk.

And this is where I learned, this is why I finally embraced things like EMDR talk therapy is amazing and it works because as you're talking through things out loud to somebody that isn't just your friend or family member. Because your friend or family member is probably going to say, Whoa, why'd you do that? Or I would have done this. And so then our brain goes back to, Oh, I must, this is not safe for me to talk about.

So just talk therapy in general, as you're talking through scary things, because we leave things in our head, they go scary. It's kind of our default and then the person that is hearing you is empathizing and it does help. So that helps over time. EMDR is a fascinating thing and I am, I will get this wrong, but this is my memory of how it works is that, okay, when you're a little kid, you're walking forward and your eyes are scanning left, right for safety.

You're trying to see, am I going to trip on anything or is there something coming at me? And over time you do that long enough and your brain skips some steps and says, okay, if your eyes are moving left, right, left, right, then you must be safe. I'm drawing a blank on the lady's name, Francine Shapiro. A long time ago, I had a hypothesis that then, alright if I can get you to look left, right, left, right, then your brain will stop.

Oh, EMDR is the Yeah, that's the left, right, left, right stuff. There are people that do I've heard it works. Yeah, I, I do it. Yeah. I've got it, I do it in my office in California. Like, I had a client and I like Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of first responders do it. I worked with a, I, the one of the, before I did EMDR, I worked with a first responder who they saw some pretty bad things at train tracks and then they couldn't cross them themselves.

And then they went and did two or three sessions of EMDR and they were able to do that. Because then what you're able to do is you're able to talk through it while your brain is like saying, we're safe, we're safe, we're safe. And then it helps you like be more calm when you're experiencing one of those situations. So what would you recommend if She can't afford therapy right now. Oh, for the, well the main thing I would do is honestly going to Google low cost therapy near me.

Because I know in, near my office in Sacramento one of my favorite people, Darlene Davis, my sensei, she has a, called Hope Counseling Center. And I mean, they have people that are doing it for darn near free, or look for sliding scale therapy near you. Because anybody that's coming out of school needs their internship hours, and I'm not saying that that means they're bad therapists.

I think a good therapist is called to be a therapist and they're good in the chair or they're not good in the chair. And so you can find some amazing therapists that will take sliding scale payments for five, ten bucks, that sort of thing. So maybe even some that will do free. So before you think that all your options are shot because you can't afford it, please look, look for it and look for sliding scale or like a nonprofit around you.

And honestly, if you aren't even sure what to do or how to do that, email me at contact at tonyoverbay. com and let me know where you live. And I'll see if I can find somebody pull a string or two if I can. Yeah. Did we answer stars? What stars? Cause we talked to her last time so I want to answer her again. Oh, okay. What'd she say? She said, Hi again.

I'm done with my husband's yelling and disrespect. I'm stuck because I'm a stay at home mom. And then, moving further down, she said Oh! Any conversation I try to have with him, he is defensive and I pity him. It just says pity him. But I think maybe she meant I pity him. Okay. That's it. Oh, okay. . And start. It takes, again, it takes a lot of courage to start to, to acknowledge that this isn't a relationship I wanna be in.

But as a stay at home mom, I think so often that's just a difficult place because there are Oh, he wants pity. Oh, he wants pity. Sorry. And that is, so we'll talk about this down the road, but man, that's where a guy will, I'm just gonna go.

In this scenario, where the guy is, he just wants her to feel bad, and he thinks that's a way that then it will make him feel better, and it might make him feel better, but again, he just diffused all this stuff onto her, and saying, you deal with it, make me feel better, and then, and it leaves her just feeling hollow, and feeling unseen, and unconnected, but the stay at home mom, that's tough, because they can be stuck, they can be stuck financially, they can

be stuck and so I know this is not going to sound very empowering right now but this is where we go back to what we were saying earlier, self care is not selfish and self care can be just starting to listen to podcasts or starting to read books and just to start to dream and put your life together because it kind of goes a little bit into the woo woo, like the manifestation kind of things that if you're not even thinking about it, thinking about what it, how to get out

of an unhealthy relationship or what's a career that I might have down the road then it's definitely not going to happen. Yeah. And I've worked with enough people that whether it has been a year, two years, five years down the road where then things just start to fall in place when you're starting to just recognize that I'm not going to continue to play the games. I, I am living through, a thousand cuts. And and so actually if you haven't done this already, reach out to me.

And I have a private women's Facebook group for women who are in relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic partners. And that is a great source of support. And it's And just, I know Jessica just commented, I left after 10 years and it was the best decision I ever made. My kids and I are so much happier. Wow, Jessica. And I think that's in the group. That's maybe some of the things Yeah, yeah, so reach, yeah, reach out to me if you're are going through similar things. For real.

And there are lots of people in that, in that private group that just Sit on the sidelines. Oh. And then she said, A kind gentleman that loves my kids like his own. Please know you will find someone. Aw, that's nice. Thanks Jessica. Yeah. And then this person is gonna message you one with the group. Okay, good. Please do. I'm gonna, I'm gonna screenshot every question that we didn't get to so we can have questions to start for next time. Okay. And I really, yeah.

This one I really want you to answer. Okay. Last one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Emma again. Sorry to ask another question, but how do I confront my husband about respecting me too? He thinks he has no reason to respect me. I don't respect him. But I'm trying so hard. Okay, but if he, oh gosh. Right? I mean, she needs help. Well, I go, okay, now I'm just wanting everybody to contact me, but Emma, will you also email me at contact at tonyoverbay. com? Remind me about this.

I want to, uh, contact at tonyoverbay. com because I just, I really want to send you a couple podcast episodes on differentiation because one of the first points of balance of being differentiated is not needing someone else to do it first or because his response is so immature. And just the fact that he's saying that is cause for you to. Not have respect for him because, and I'm going to, I'm going to jump over to the side for a second.

One of my favorite therapists, and I like to call her friend Jennifer Finlayson five says so often that when a guy will say, well, I want her to desire me, then she'll say, well, be desirable then. And I love that concept because it's the same thing. If I want her to respect me, well then be respectful and be someone who is worthy of respect.

And it is not done by making someone feel small or less than, and so the second that he's saying you don't deserve respect, that is one of the most immature things that he can do.

And this is where I will say, and I've thought about rewriting this stuff often, there's that concept of, polarity, masculine, feminine, and Indian culture, Shiva, Shakti, and Asian, yin, yang, I've called it assertive and nurturing, but It is, I believe it is the job that he needs to provide emotional safety, emotional consistency, emotional maturity, and that needs to be this presence so that she feels safe enough to be able to express herself.

And, man, we will talk about this another day too, because she doesn't feel safe in the relationship and that is why, right now I think her body is keeping the score when she's like, I don't respect him. It's because her body's saying, yeah, you've tried for as long as you can and you're betraying yourself now when you're trying to, okay, I'm going to keep trying to respect this person that is not very emotionally safe or stable or present. And so part of the challenge is to start to pull back.

It really is and not need his validation and know that you're okay. And what's fascinating about that is, it's the push and pull, it's the pursuer withdrawal dynamic that often when the person in your position does start to withdraw, now all of a sudden, okay, oh, he's now pursuing. And that's almost more signs of the immature. I have so many thoughts on that. I would love to do a whole episode of that. MSF will email you. Okay. Good. No, it's like you shouldn't have to do anything to be loved.

You shouldn't have to do anything to be respected. Those are things that you just deserve. No, you get that just for existing. Yeah, and you can do things that take that away. Exactly, yeah. By existing you get to be loved and you get to have your worth seen and be valued. You do. Period. Okay.

That was fun. Thank you. Contact? I put it in the thing. Well, actually it would be nice if people would just go to TonyOverbay. com and you can email me through the contact form, but while you're there, sign up for my newsletter that I don't normally write. But I'm going to, because Sid's going to remind me. Right, Sid? That's crazy to ask me to remind you. I know. That was kind of funny. Even as I was saying it, I was like, Mackie, can you remind Sid to remind me?

Emma, we usually do them Sunday nights. And this will be re uploaded on YouTube, and there's a bunch on YouTube already, and you should definitely check out our YouTube because we're being neglected over this. Do the old humble brag, but I just for fun. I was laying out that okay the on tik tok that one HSP Video has like a 1. 8 million views and on Instagram.

It's got like 2. 2 million views and I said and on YouTube as 512 County something that and I just said, okay, but not that I'm bitter about that I am. Yeah. Okay. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Mac, for being here. Always. For real. I appreciate you. Sidney said she'd come next week. Are you next week, Sid? Yeah. Ha ha! Are we doing the three of us? Are you, are you modding or are we doing the three? I can mod. Oh, I forgot I had this thing on my face. Yeah, quit touching it. I know.

I just wanted to scratch it right there. Gaping wound. It's a gaping wound. Alright, uh, don't run into walls. Amen. Amen. Thanks, everybody. Alright, Sid. Cancel that. Get us out of here!