Spoiler Alert: “NO!” to the question “Is God Disappointed in Me?” — Author Kurt Francom’s New Book!

Music. To episode 417. This is my interview with Kurt Francom. I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. But Kurt Francom, he is the executive director and podcast host of Leaning Saints, which is a nonprofit that he set up, I think it was almost 10 years ago, with a mission to help provide leadership training to people who are called into positions of leadership within the LDS Church.

But if you don't think that that applies to you, please don't hit hit that stop button.

Because if you have any type of relationship with the virtual couch, waking up to narcissism, love ADHD, the mind, the mirror, me, murder on the couch, or my daughter said in my live relationship question and answers any of it. So I guess that is probably an awkward way to say that if you and I connect at all virtually, please listen to this episode because thanks to my own emotional immaturity, I truly almost let a friendship get away from me because I was not mentioned in a book.

Book and I promise you it'll make sense when you listen to the interview. But I also want to say that I am humbled by the work I get to do on a daily basis. I can't believe how fortunate I am to get to do the work I do, not just in sessions, but I get to share information in podcasts. I get to speak to groups of people that I can help because a decade of my work life, that was absolutely not the case. So never ever would I have imagined these stories that I created in my my head

about not being mentioned in my friend Kurt's new book. So, please stay tuned. Listen to this interview with my friend, thank goodness, Kurt Francom.

He does have a new book that really is good. It's called Is God Disappointed in Me? Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace. It's now available on Amazon, and I will put a link in the show notes. But I don't want to share much more than that, but we talk about all kinds of things. Immaturity, the plague of validation, how we find our identity, our egos, some good old emotional immaturity and narcissistic traits and tendencies talk.

There's that and so much more. And also just a quick heads up, Kurt was dealing with a pretty bad cough. So I tried to edit those out, but there are a couple left in there. So I am aware. And then hopefully the software I use in post-production to smooth out the edges will make it a little easier to listen to. And if you like Kurt and my dynamic, which I'm telling you, this is not the

typical author comes on a podcast interview. It just isn't. But I have I've recorded several interviews with Kurt on the Leading Saints podcast from everything about removing shame, about narcissism in church leadership positions, about healthy ego validation. Actually, a lot of those are things that are... That are in Kurt's book that we'll let you find out if I was mentioned or not mentioned in. And I also did a four, five-hour leadership training that Kurt brought me in to Wallsburg, Utah.

And I know that's available through his Leading Saints nonprofit. He and I, we get along really well. And I think you'll see that in the podcast. But boy, the stories, the narratives I created in my head were just amazing. And while I have you, very quickly, let me bring some awareness to a new podcast that I'm part of as well. It's called the Q&A Files. And this is done with my good friends, Tricia and Jeff Jamison.

Tricia is the host, and she's a coach. And then Jeff is a doctor, and I play the role of the therapist. And it's a project that I always thought would be really exciting. So I was grateful when they invited me to be a part of the Q&A Files project. So there are, I think we've got four or five episodes that are out already.

Ready. You can hear them wherever you listen to podcasts. But we take, in essence, a life coach, a therapist, and a board-certified physician's take on a lot of different questions and different problems. And so it's just fun to get our three different takes on certain things. And sometimes we agree, other times not so much. And so I've really enjoyed that project. It's fun to not be necessarily in charge of a project and be able to just show up at a recording and then just kind of go with it.

And what is really funny about that is I also realized I don't get necessarily put on the spot so often. So Tricia loves to just ask some questions that I'm not prepared for, I mean, in a good way. And so I went into some of the recordings almost like, oh man, okay, I'm almost nervous, which is really funny because I don't feel like I get nervous in these kinds of situations very often. So that's been fun. It's been exercising my discomfort muscles, so to speak.

So check that out, the Q&A files, wherever you listen to podcasts. But now let's get back to this interview with Kurt Francom. Sit back, relax, and enjoy my awkwardness and emotional immaturity as Kurt and I talk more about his book and whether or not I eventually found my way into the pages of it. So let's get to my interview with Kurt Francom, executive director and podcast host of Leading Saints. Music.

Yeah so i think sometimes when you see people that are actors and they say they were so brave oh bravely told their story yeah so kurt frankham you've been

so brave today because you're coughing how do you do it you know lots of training and and you ate a whole rack of ribs i think there was delicious you did okay kurt frankham welcome technically to the the virtual couch and and this isn't a virtual couch for me you're here in person on the couch i know technically yeah we're in person i know it's nice back down you are i have so many funny things i want to start with but i'm really grateful that you're here we're here to promote

your book called is god disappointed in me removing shame from the gospel of grace which is an amazing book well thank you you did really read it everything i ask you it seems like you're You'd be like, oh, yeah, I know that chapter. So I did. You don't have to read every word. No, but do you know why I read every word, Kurt? Because I was looking for my name in it. And that's embarrassing. Do we start right there? I think I had these funny jokes in my mind where it

was going to be the title. Kurt, tell me about the title. Is God disappointed me? Because I am. But I don't think God is. Oh, yeah. Everybody that has somewhat of a sense of humor and they see my book and they're like, does it just say yes inside? Is that it? OK, but that's the wrong. No, he is not disappointed in you. But I am I think it would be a great gag if I would do like another edition where it's like it's just all it just, Let pages and pages of one word. Yes. Yes.

Okay. That's really funny. When I actually did my internship for therapy for the church, there was this guy that shared an office wall with me and I was pretty new. And I just said, do you ever feel like you just want to tell somebody sometimes,

well, how about you just knock it off? You know? And I said, probably not really a therapeutic response, but then I then would say, okay, another chapter in my book. When somebody comes in and says, why do I do this stuff? Or why can't I stop doing this? And I want to say, have you ever just thought about not doing it? Maybe like knocking it off. So have you seen this? Have you seen the, who's the Newhart? The comedian? Bob Newhart. Bob Newhart. Have you seen this clip? Okay.

I don't, I can't even come up with a funny age-related joke. No. He's like. For all you kids under. Classic comedian. Yeah, he was good. What's the clip? But basically, he's this therapist and someone comes in and she, then basically she's saying, oh, well, sometimes I experience anxiety when I feel like I'm getting, someone's going to put me in a box and he's just, well, stop it. Stop doing that. And then, and then it escalates from there.

That is good and it is you would appreciate it's funny as i've now made enough about your book let's talk about me thank you it is on amazon if anybody's curious no it's i want this to be a fun interview because you're a fun guy and we had a great lunch and over the last two or three days greatest podcast at lunch that nobody else for real we really did we really did because i i texted you yeah that's why you know that's why i did that i don't know if you've had that

experience where somebody says i'm not texting somebody i'm just gonna take notes on my phone And I'm thinking, no, I'm texting somebody. So I texted you my notes on the phone. But I think that this interview might go a little bit of a different direction. So I'm sure everybody's doing that. Tell me about your book and what's that been like for you in the process. And I do want to know about those. But part of why I think we had such a fun conversation at lunch is because of

the days that have led up to you coming out here. Yeah. Tell me about that. I need to, Kurt. I went from Darth Vader. Yeah. Oh, if Darth Vader had a dad or maybe he does. maybe that I'm sure Star Wars people are gonna do you know who Darth Vader's dad was somebody does yeah Well, no, wasn't he like a single, his mom was single? I mean,

obviously he had a dad. I assume that works that way. Well, okay. Welcome to Tony and Kurt's ADHD journey. One of my funniest moments for me personally, again, making it about me for your book, when the pandemic hit, and that doesn't, you're like, you know, one of the funniest moments I had when the pandemic hit. Yeah, that was hilarious. No, so when the pandemic hit, I wanted to make a big difference and a change.

Change and i came in here and the first weekend i filmed a parenting course and it was called positive parenting during the not so positive times and then i put the word out to some local tv stations and channel 31 the clips out there but they said oh we would love to interview you for it and i and again everybody's on zoom and remote i was sitting in my office and i was waiting for my part to come up so they had a producer that would come on and say okay you're two

segments away i was getting a little bit nervous and so then they said okay you're after the next segment and the segment that came on was they were talking to Elmo's dad for real the clips out there and so then I'm sitting there and my my whole thing is saying okay I didn't know Elmo had a dad and I thought I've got two and a half minutes when I go on there and I said do not talk about Elmo's dad don't talk about whatever you do whatever you do and now I want to

be able to insert this into my own podcast because sure enough then they cut the anchors they're saying And hey, we got a local therapist here who's put together some parenting tips for our listeners. They're free. And then they said, let's bring him on. You know, hey, Tony. And I just said, I didn't know Elmo had a dad. And so a minute and 15 seconds of my two and a half minutes, I talked about Elmo's dad. Nice. Yeah. Okay, so. Go ahead.

He's coming to town. Kurt and I will joke about being best friends. I've really felt a connection to you over the years. And so I've gone on a couple of other podcasts, Unashamed, Unafraid. And then we even had a who likes Kurt more contest, which I win, obviously.

And so I just, I really like you, Kurt. We'll text funny things. And so then this Marco Polo that all the kids are doing, we decide we're going to Marco Polo. And then I realized, but when you do Marco Polos, you have to listen to the people and record. And that takes time. And so then I put it off. I do constantly lose the notification. Do I though, or do I just ignore the notification for being honest? Every now and again, I get one that says, Kurt sent you a message 21 days ago,

you know, that kind of thing. but we had a nice little run going and I was having a blast with it. It's funny, my buddy, Preston Pugmire, he's you and him. I said, I'm going to Marco Polo you guys. And then I would, and then you guys would Marco Polo back. And I just wouldn't respond for a long time. So I missed a key one that you had sent. Let me set the stage. So I find out from somebody else that Kurt has written a book and I was excited for Kurt, but I also thought we were best friends.

I thought he would have told me about writing this book again. Let's just go ahead and say right now to get rid of no one but myself's discomfort. Kurt had told me and it was in one of these Marco Polos that I had not listened to. So then I'm creating this narrative and I talk about it and we make an observation and a judgment and then all of a sudden the other person's guilty and they have to.

Prove themselves based off of my judgment of what they've done you've written a script of your movie and they're yeah and let's go back to that darth vader's evil darth vader whatever not only are they in your movie but they're the villain yeah yeah yeah and so then i'm creating this narrative oh so kurt my supposed best friend wrote a book that's okay it's all right he wrote a book he didn't tell me about it but then i get a text that

you were coming in town from someone else so then i think okay so he wrote a book and he's coming to town and apparently he's doing a fireside about don't just talking about faith journey faith christ the stuff that i love talking about on a daily basis in my own land and he hasn't even let me know and so then i get the book and this is the part and i sent you the book didn't i yeah so here's where i think that when you had texted me later and you said i don't i did that none of that made sense

old man i think was the text that you sent me because i'd sent a big old vulnerable text so here's what happened And this is almost embarrassing. It is embarrassing. So then I get the book and then I'm putting these pieces together. He's coming into town. He didn't let me know. Somebody else had to let me know.

And he wrote a book, didn't let me know about that either. And then I told you, I remember we had talked about, I did an act in the gospel podcast on Leading Saints and I loved it. It was one of the first times I've ever put those concepts together. And then you and I started talking about, let's write a book about that. And I thought, man, Kurt's my boy. We're writing a book together. So we're probably going to talk about books all the time. And Kurt knows about

my book. and so then I'm sure he would tell me about his book. So that's all going through my head. So you can start to see. So then I get the book and I literally, I brought it here and you had sent me a text at that point then and said, did you get my book? And I didn't respond because I was gonna do the greatest. Thing and put it on Instagram and TikTok. So I set my camera up right here and then I get the book out and I narrate this.

I say, oh, my supposed best friend, Kurt Francom wrote a book and I'm just now finding out about it. Again, I didn't know that you had sent this Marco Polo. And so then I open up the package and then I say, it's funny, I actually had to shoot it two or three times because I showed your address, your home address on the video, which I don't know if that matters or not, because it was on the package you sent. So then I would reshoot it and reshoot. I'm being hilarious.

I can't wait to see this. So I open it and I say, So since we're best friends, it's probably I'm in the acknowledgements. So I look on the back and it's not there. So then I open the first page and then I see, oh, there's a lot of quotes from a lot of people that have already read Kurt's book. And I ended up turning the video off and then going into the corner in the fetal position, having a good cry. Because at first I was like, oh, not only do I not know about the book,

but everybody else knew about the book. Maybe this is an intervention. So then I think I'll flip through the book. Maybe it's a book for me about something I need to know. And then I flip to the next page full of all the quotes from people that read it before me. And then it gets to the two and it's not to me. And so then I start just flipping

through and I'm seeing, man, he quotes a lot of people. He probably quotes me. So then I go into the index and I think, okay, I see lots of other people's names. I'm not in there. So that's now why I've read every word of your book forward and backward looking for Tony Overbay. My inspiration. Right, yes. And I would have loved to have had that there too. And this is, again, I'm owning my immaturity on this because we had a great

conversation, which I think is really funny about this. And I want to see you scramble your way out of it on the podcast as well here in a minute. And that way I'll see if you're consistent with your response because then we'll know if it's true. All right. But I've even flipped through and one of my friends, Sam Telemans, I see a quote from him. And I've been on Sam's on my podcast. I've been on his. I've been on Kurt's a bunch of times.

You've even a couple of times at the end of the year post your top downloads. And I was blown away that I was in a couple of those. So obviously I'm going to be in here somewhere. So I don't find myself anywhere. And then I see, but you mentioned acceptance and commitment therapy in the back. Wait, we should recreate what you said at lunch, though, when you said, but I did mention, remember what you said? I didn't mention ACT, right? Yeah, you said, but I did mention ACT.

And I said to Kurt, yeah, it's actually worse because who taught you ACT, Kurt? Who was it? I did. But then who does Kurt quote in the book? Russ Harris. I love all of his books. But it wasn't my good friend Tony Overbay changed my life with the principles of acceptance and commitment therapy. No. The next edition. Oh, we already talked about it. The next edition has to be, my name needs to be somewhere in the title.

Oh, yeah. Your face on the cover. All of this is immature because then I text her a couple of times and I wasn't even supposed to be here this weekend. And then the weather, actually an act of God had to happen for me to be here so we can. Yeah. God cared. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so then you said, hey, I can call or Marco Polo. And I was seeing clients, so I really didn't have time to call.

So then it's like Marco Polo. So then I go to it and then it's, oh, there was one from a couple of months ago. And I listened to it. and you said, hey, Tony, I'm so excited. I wrote a book and I'm coming out your way. And I'd love to, I mean, if there's any chance you could. I'd love to do an interview on it. And yeah. And here we are. Here we are. And this is, and some people may wonder why, why this long story, but this is the. That's a long story.

But this is like that. Nobody's nobody writes for free as Brene Brown says. Yes. Everybody, even if you're a therapist, you still fall prey to mortality and the lack of validation at times. And the way we make a judgment of that and then insert it into our story and then cast judgment on others.

And yeah and in a simple conversation suddenly like it all falls into it did into line i think the part where you did and i admire your willing to potentially sit with some invalidation or discomfort because i think the thing that i just and i love when somebody takes ownership or accountability of something which i was not doing until now and i'm doing a hilarious on my dad you're supposed to laugh there kurt thank you i'm gonna edit that out but

i really liked at At one point you just said, oh man, yeah, I didn't, I didn't really think about putting a quote in there from you. And as much as I would have thought that that would hurt, it's, oh, oh, well then that's why I'm not in there. Cause you didn't think about it. Now I'm good. Right? Cause it's okay. Cause if you've been like, oh, I, I had one in there, but they, wait, you weren't in there. Well, you did do that one. You weren't in there. You did do that one though. Yeah.

But I just, I appreciated, we had a good conversation and I was making a lot of observations and judgments and you had no idea that i didn't listen to that marco polo this is a part that people if they are listening and thinking gosh he's a diva it's okay it's a diva for the record but i don't think i am but maybe i need to self-confront with that it was really funny it was so many emotions going through me because.

That is so self-serving and egotistical to think that but yet i was thinking it so i was being able to step away from that and say don't check this out and then i would and try to then stay present. And then it was just really funny. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked a little bit about this at lunch that the, this is like the battleground that we're on, you know, being content producers, having a stage, having a platform, a brand, all these things, being the person, a personal brand, like,

Tony's the therapist. He gets it. He's untangled the knots of life. And man, I bet his life. He just goes home. Incredible marriage. His kids just love him. Not even a hint of shame. Pets don't even bark. They're like so wagging their tails. And so I think it's really crucial for people like us who have somewhat of an audience to lead out with some of these stories sometimes. Where I'm the leadership guy, right? Yes. And with leading saints.

And there's still times where I'm like, no, I just like screw up with leadership or I'm seeking validation in other ways. Or show up 18 minutes late to noon. I don't know where I'm going in this town. Oh, that's true. Wait. I mean, if only you'd served your mission here. Not in this bar. Okay. That's fair. But I like what you're saying, though, because it's where it sounds so silly, Kurt, because I think you're the same because this is why I think we've enjoyed each other's company so much.

I still it's the imposter syndrome. I mean, just because I'm talking into a microphone, I'm grateful. I felt led and called to the career I'm in after 10 years and a crummy career to the point where I can't even believe I get to do what I get to do. And then speaking about it to people, all I want to do is help. So that is the part that was such a paradox in my head where I really don't, I don't want to care that I'm not in your book at all.

Because it's silly to care because I can't even believe I get to be a therapist and share stuff to help people.

So I think that was part of the what is this all about but you were at lunch saying you're human yeah right yeah and this is the point I think the very human experience of naturally you want to go to this place of no it's fine it's fine yeah no I'm good no I'm good but it's okay to sit with this actually that hurt a little bit yeah which is and just like sit there yeah right you don't have to live there, But you got to feel that. Yeah, you do. Yeah. And as we talk, there's no malintent of this.

But dang, I feel invalidated. And this is the, you know, we talked about at lunch that we often in the religious context talk about pornography is the plague of the world. No, no, no. It's invalidation. Yeah. Absolutely. A hundred percent. And in fact, that's why many individuals go to pornography because they feel validated. Yeah. Yeah. And I like what you're saying there too, because we don't like to sit with discomfort. discomfort. It's not natural for us.

And so I want to get rid of the discomfort, but if I can sit with it a little bit, it really can teach me because I was telling you, I mean, I am grateful that I feel like mentally it's a better place inside my head over the last few years as I realized I am enough. I am a child of God. I am okay. I am lovable. But then you just find these brief moments. And I think you mentioned that we can still get a trigger or something.

I think you were talking about maybe there are people in your family that have these different callings where Where you can still sit there and feel like, wait a minute, am I doing this wrong or bad? Yeah. Yeah, because I'm the, there's three. I was hoping you'd tell this, yes. So there's three boys in my family, one girl. And me and my two brothers, we were all bishops at the same time. So it was easy for people. And you were like 18 when you were bishop. You were very young.

You were very young though. I'm 28. Yeah. Because I'm a big deal and I need validation. I spit water all over my stuff. It's your fault. Gaslight you. And so it was very easy for people to look at the Francom family and be like, oh, look at them. They figured it out. They did it. They cracked the code. And we're like, wait, what's going on? They just asked us to do this, right? But now it's progressed that we're not bishops anymore, but those two brothers are stake presidents.

And so I'm like- What's wrong with you? The only Manning, the third Manning brother that didn't win the Super Bowl and is an accountant or something is like- Did you not work hard enough, train hard enough? What's the problem here, right? So, yeah, there's those moments where you have to really take any desire for validation of God. And he is the true source of validation. Yeah. Because his answer will be the same to everybody. Yes. All the time. That you are beloved.

I love the scripture, John 15, 9. How God feels about Jesus, Jesus feels about you. And God called Jesus beloved, so therefore you are beloved. You're beloved. Always. Yeah. Every day. I often refer to the quote by Carl Rogers. Is that a name in your? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's a psychologist. Yeah, Rogerian, he's like all about, he was one of the first client-centered therapy, or the therapist gets to be a part of the experience.

Yeah. So you're not just a mirror. So the therapist, the client wants to know why you can even speak to this instead of me saying, well, why does that matter to you? Yeah. So I actually learned about him from another therapist. Did you mention him in your book, The Other Therapist? I did. Oh, no, not.

I mentioned Carl Rogers. See, I didn't include everybody. Okay. I feel so much better. But I love one of my favorite quotes from Carl Rogers is that the curious paradox is, is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can begin to change. Absolutely. And I project that onto Jesus that the curious paradox is that when I realized Jesus Christ accepts me just as I am, then I can change. Yeah. Because there's this paradox in acceptance that if I accept you,

Tony, just as you are, maybe you won't change, right? We feel this with our children. Absolutely. You can't let them know that they're accepted today because you really need them to get a job and go to college and become functioning adults.

But this is the paradox of the God we worship is that when I realize I'm accepted today, even if I'm never the stake president, if I'm never the next leader, if I'm never whatever, then it's like that's the enabling power of the atonement, enabling power of grace that then I begin to change. Yes. Okay. In my beloved acceptance and commitment therapy, one of the biggest parts that was, I think, a game changer for me was in that world, acceptance.

And I would always say acceptance doesn't mean apathy. Acceptance means to take in without defense in its entirety. So then, given that example of if somebody is afraid that they will be anxious in a situation, then they will avoid that situation to avoid the anxiety. But if I accept that I will be anxious, then I also get to go interact with whatever it is. And I might love it. I might find joy in it. And oh, and there's that anxiety.

So I have to accept it. But I love it because then people will say, if I accept it, then I'll start to move forward. But that isn't the point. Yeah, and this is – for whatever reason, this is the way we're wired is we walk around just feeling like, okay, today, my purpose today is I got to go figure out if I'm accepted in the world. And you just constantly do this, right? We all do, right? Yes. And from your story, this is – like today, you woke up and you're like,

oh, I have to figure out if I'm accepted by Kurt today. For real. And like go through – oh, it must not be. Therefore, many people must reject me. And so this craving for validation. And when I –, I tell this story throughout the book, my own journey of that quest for acceptance and validation. This is where daily repentance comes in. It's not that I've looked at pornography or embezzled a bunch of money or robbed a bank, and therefore I need to go to my knees and repent.

It's that a hundred times in a day, I will look to something else to prove that I'm accepted and not to God. Hey, and I like that one of the classes when my wife and I were teaching it, and the concept of repentance was there, and we had got this definition of it means to turn to.

Okay because do you agree because i think even when you just said i have to repent daily that there are people that have an association with what that means and it comes with a feeling of negativity that repentance is like oh man i gotta repent oh right right yeah so when it's i've got to turn to and then i and then in my world but if i feel like god is mad with me which here we get to yours he disappointed then oh man i have to turn to a god that is disappointed in me every day

way to then feel like that i'm really bad and i think there's so much that is i think not the way it is in that setup right and this is the poison of misunderstanding who god is yeah that oh we project our earthly parents onto our heavenly parents yeah yeah hey while you're coughing there which uh by the way i joked with you too that you're doing a fireside tomorrow night by the time people hear this that will have already happened

and if i will have poked enough holes into my Kurt Frank voodoo doll, then you will go up there speechless and I will come up and save the day. Yeah, you'll save the day and be the hero. Yeah, so we'll see it. And then everybody will love me. Then everybody will love me finally. Yeah, finally. Sam Tielemans, again, this good friend of mine who you did have on your podcast. He's great, isn't he? Yeah, he is. He's great. Apparently he's better than I am.

No offense, Sam. I'm sending him a lot of validation. Yeah, Sam's great. And it's funny, Sam shared this quote with me and I told him I am going to say this so many times that it's going to become my quote and I keep giving him credit for it. So it's not working. working. And when we were talking about, let's say that we find out that, oh, we are lovable. We are enough.

We are a child of God. And he said, the strongest force in the human personality is to act in alignment with how you see yourself. So however you identify yourself, you're going to find a way back to your home base. And we were talking about it in the context of people that are struggling with turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms.

I mean, that's what I like to say sometimes instead of addiction, because if somebody says I'm an addict, then they may be sober for long periods of time, but I'm an addict. It's almost like, but it's inevitable. I find a my way back to my home base. And so, I like saying, but what if I'm enough? Or what if I'm lovable? What if I'm a child of God? Then I might have a setback, but I'll find my way back to my home base of I'm lovable.

And that's what I love about your book. The part says, when I wasn't angry, when I wasn't angry reading it, that there's so much good in there that is the

concept of where you are okay, you are enough. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the power of acceptance, right? Yeah. And so, as I repent every day, that's what I'm repenting of, that I turn to another source. And you know you talk about unhealthy coping mechanisms oftentimes we talk about the stigmatized unhealthy coke yeah yeah porn right yeah and a lot of people say well i'll tell you i don't. I don't look at porn, so I'm good. I must not be in this world or experience this dynamic.

But there's so many other ways that we cope where it could even be Netflix. I feel so activated or so much discontent about not being accepted. It's just hard to sit with that feeling. So I'm going to just go dive into a Netflix series and forget the world I even live in and go to a different world for a while. Right now, there's nothing wrong with Netflix. There's nothing wrong with watching a series. But when we're using these unhealthy coping mechanisms, even if they're not stigmatized.

And oftentimes, for me, one of the great things of being a bishop is that there's this constant reminder that you're accepted. I wasn't Kurt Frankem. I was Bishop Frankem. I didn't go to meetings. I presided at meetings. And so for 10 years of my life, I was high on this drug of validation in an unhealthy way. Now, there's nothing wrong with being a bishop. There's nothing wrong with serving that way.

And, of course, we need bishops. We need church leaders and to do all the things. But so many times I went to it in this place of, ah, I can, I can at least no matter who rejects me, at least at the end of the day, I've checked that box of being a bishop. Yeah. And nobody can take that from me. Right. Yeah. Where God is looking at me like, Kurt, what are you doing? Yeah. I just love you completely today. Yeah. Yeah. Of course I need to serve as bishop. That has nothing to do with

our relationship. But for so many years, I remember that moment. I talked about this moment in the book of. When I was called as a bishop, after all these years of, I'm the youngest of four, I wasn't, didn't perform very well in school while I had another brother

who was excelling valedictorian, full-ride scholarship to the college I wanted to go to. I was rejected three times from that college. I just couldn't keep up. He was a leader on his mission. I was never a leader. And then I had this moment when I'm 28 and I get called as a bishop and I couldn't help but drive in person over to my parents' house to tell them. I actually went, not only my parents' house, I went to each one of my siblings in person to tell them, in person. Yeah.

I've been called as a vision. What was that like? Do you remember? Did you get the validation you wanted at that moment? Well, yeah, but it was one of those things like, of course, it's not like my parents were like, yeah, let's bake a cake and celebrate. But they're just like, wow, that's fantastic. But just sitting in that validation, it was almost like I'm saying like, finally now, mom and dad, do you accept me now? Now, if they knew I was thinking that, they'd be like, what are you talking

about? Like, of course we do. But these are the games we play in our minds in mortality where we're often chasing this this validation from the wrong source. And that's why it's so important at the end of the day or in this several times during the day to make that repentant step of turning to God and be like,

okay, just remind me one more time. Do you love me? Of course I love you. And he will tell you every single day, every single time. You could never do anything right the rest of your life. And I cherish you. And that is as, as it's defined the enabling power of the atonement, because when I feel that grace, I can't help, but turn to him and say, okay, okay, now how do I become like you? And he'll say, I've got commandments.

I've got covenant. Do those things, not to earn my love, not to earn my validation,

but to step into a relationship with me. And we can become something great. You'll be something great. Because I've developed you. Because you are my cherished one. Not because you've done anything, but because of who you are. So it's what's interesting when you say that too. And I realized another narrative I had created was as I was putting this picture together that you were no longer wanting anything to do with me, that I was on the naughty list and more and more. Isn't that funny?

Because it's like you thought you were writing a tragedy. You were writing a comedy. Oh, now it's hilarious. Because another one was I have been telling people for quite a while because I love going on your podcast. And I do feel like you allow me, I'm never going to get on there and try to say, I'm going to say something controversial. I'm just going to say the things I really feel passionate about.

And so I think I'd share with you, actually, this is maybe what started the Marco Polos was I said, I would love to come on and talk about differentiation. First, I said, I want to talk about that. We're creating at times we're creating little liars. If we tell people they have to be perfect, like guys that want to go on a mission or before somebody can get married or to get a calling.

And if we say you haven't done this have you whatever it is or how long has it been since you've looked at porn and then if the person doesn't answer it correctly then they're gonna they're gonna feel a tremendous amount of shame so if the

person isn't going to get help then they just start to say okay i just need to say i'm i'm okay and i'll figure it out later and so then that person will get praised and then they will get to move up the chain or they get to go on the mission or whatever and then if somebody's saying oh i'm struggling then it's like then you you, you don't get to go.

So I think I was starting to tell you that. And then I was looking more into the concept of differentiation where every single thing is actually a me issue in a good way. And then, uh, and then I started thinking in terms of, I've been talking about the concept of a muse. So then any interaction, any situation like this very thing that we're talking about became my muse. It became the thing that, that caused me to reflect and on myself.

And so even while I had this narrative created that you did not care about me, Kurt, I was like, like, but doggone it, I'm okay. So now it's really funny to look at that because it was something where I would find myself wanting to get down, but I feel like I've got enough reps in now where in the... I am okay though. And I'm disappointed because, man, I like Kurt.

And does this mean we're not going to be able to hang anymore? So, then I would go down that path and I'm like, I would come back to the present and I am okay. But that concept of being differentiated or so if this relationship with God, that then it does become a me thing. If all of a sudden, if I'm feeling like, wait, now he doesn't like me today and he does like me tomorrow, but he loves you all the time. So, it is a me thing when I feel like he doesn't.

So, then it's like, why doesn't he? Oh, because I'm down. i'm sad yeah yeah and here's a little another dynamic that happens in all this in the last couple chapters of the book i talked about this concept of grace for grace like once we are able we sort of have make this a practice of receiving god's grace and receiving his validation as the one true and only source where we can get that personal validation once we receive grace we're more enabled to give grace

okay right and so it can i see what you're saying you're saying i was being a baby is what you're saying well and and i get into this place too like when i'm having a a hard time giving grace instead of, I don't ask like, how can I give more? How can I, how can I forgive Kurt more? Like this is kind of ridiculous. And then you're sort of beating yourself up that way. You can instead reframe it to say, where am I like not receiving God's grace?

Cause maybe I'm holding him accountable for the same things I'm holding myself accountable for. That's good. Oh, it is because now I want to go back and look at the text because I really did. It's so funny. I love being this open and vulnerable, even if I may never air it.

But because toward the end when I knew you were coming out here and we weren't going to be here because the storm that was supposedly coming in I really did that's why I reached back out and I just said hey great book or hope you have a great time or something whatever I said that was super nice you know putting that out there because I think it is that concept of what you said was once I realized this is a me issue and Kurt's a great guy and and if I'm not being excited about his book oh my

gosh I will not feel good about that because the book is really good and he is is a great guy and so obviously there's something a publisher much it must have

accidentally left the pages off or something that was it is that what it was yeah i'll check with my printer and there's a sheet down on the floor and it's like how did this thing get out there right yeah okay um but honestly the how long has it taken you to write the book so it was like four years okay i've always sort of been just working at it yeah a few minutes or an hour here and there and yeah and over four years i got it done okay which is kind of a normal process i learned from a lot of

people yeah yeah especially i mean the editing and yeah like five copy editors did it yeah i made a lot of mistakes but they fixed them did they find them all have you found any since it's been printed. Not yet. I'm sure somebody will find one. I realize with my own ADHD, I want to blame it on that or laziness. But when my book about addiction was going to the whatever, the galleys, whatever, all the words they were, that then I was supposed to look it over

and then it would go to this professional person. So I just thought, well, then I don't really need to look it over. And then it's out. It's had some typos in it now. So that's fun. But as far as the, how's the reception been? What's it been like? Because you've interviewed so many people about that have these big positions in church. Yeah sure yeah i mean it's been seems to be very well received and now that people are reading it and feedback and but yeah it's great yeah so from a validation

standpoint do you feel like there is i want to know what that's like that dynamic where the more you become aware of this dynamic, the more you can point out and be like there it is right because there's those moments where and this is kind of a tactic i use to work through this is i mean it's because it's the wrong Wrong way to go is then we're like, well, Tony, we're seeing this validation. Why don't we just shut down our podcast?

Right. Yes. Change our name and go into the witness protection program. Nobody knows where we're at because that then you don't have to. But at the same time, like God created us to do something remarkable. Let our light so shine, apparently. Right. What's the source of that light is God. Yeah. Right. So whenever those moments come, I'm like, dang, I'm a big deal. Right. Like I'm changing lives and they need me in Sacramento.

I better go out there and make it happen. Right. I often remind myself, isn't this beautiful how God's glory is being made manifest through my work. And it's all his glory. He could take it away tomorrow. Yeah, absolutely.

But this is God's glory. my name's on the front of the book but he created me and god don't make junk as they say i like that a lot actually do you i i'm there now i want to say do you know of what i've said kurt about the healthy ego but that's i'm wanting you to validate me like crazy oh yes oh well tell me your favorite part of that we met podcast about where we did yeah we did we did yeah and how we can't you know oh how dare you actually have a good answer to that okay because it

takes a certain level of ego and narcissism to actually create a podcast like we've done sure and maybe just let's stick with the ego yeah no no keep going no no that's it well where i'm going with that is the healthy ego the reason why i talk about that so often and i'm looking up here because so healthy ego if i go right to the source there's an article about ironically narcissism from elodore greenberg called the truth

about narcissistic personality disorder and i really want to share this with you because I took it, that's why I'm giving her the credit. And I took this concept that she talked about, about healthy narcissism versus defensive narcissism. And I remember being at a training once when I used to work for the church and somebody had talked about Jesus having a healthy ego.

And they said, Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, that they had to have a healthy ego in order to put themselves out there to change the world. And I just, I thought that was so powerful, but my own immaturity or insecurity was so strong that I think the first time I mentioned it on a a podcast was episode like 10 or 20 and I'm at four. 50 or something now. And I remember when I put it out there, I thought, oh, people are going to think that's really bad that I said Jesus had an ego.

But then the normal healthy narcissism, which is back when narcissism wasn't always viewed as what it is, which I understand, because I've got my whole Waking Up to Narcissism podcast. I really think it's more about there's a tiny percentage of people that have narcissistic personality disorder, but we're all emotionally immature until we grow.

But when you hear this, I took her definition and I, instead of saying say narcissism i'm just going to say ego so it's a realistic sense of positive self-regard that's based on the person's actual accomplishments it's relatively stable because the person has assimilated it into their self-image the successes that came as a result of their actual hard work to overcome real life obstacles because it's based on real achievements normal healthy egos is relatively impervious

to the minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as we go through life normal ego or healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves do things that are in our real self-interest and associated with self-respect one can think of it as something that's inside of us i i really i like having you on here we talk a little more spiritual sometimes i feel like that it's inside of us help the ego based on real life accomplishments then it's when

we can really tap into the our god-given talents and abilities and then start to really lean into those that maybe that's where the light so shines yeah so my ego is firing up here to step forward i'm gonna adjust this that's how much ego i'm feeling this i would say that this is a realistic sense of positive self-regard that is based on a person's actual identity tell me more divine identity this is so there's this that the game we often play is that we're.

Oftentimes we're living for an identity yeah I can just if I can be Bishop Frankenblum yes I don't like this rather than living from an identity that God gave us that

is why I love our theology. So much is that we literally are invited to go to a house of the Lord to be endowed from on high with an identity for his identity that he's given us to be made revealed. And when we're living from that identity, that's healthy ego because it's God's ego. And then that's when it's not so much of like, I need to live for that identity of seeing my name in the book as living from the identity and that peace that God made me as I am.

He endowed me with an identity and I'm happy to to step into whatever podcast platform online, offline that he has for me and knowing that he'll strengthen my skills and abilities to accomplish a great work to manifest his glory. Yeah. And then now throw in that concept of differentiation. And if I can accept the fact that it is all a me thing, that then I am doing these things to learn more about myself and it is going to be uncomfortable.

And I am because this whole experience that we're joking about so much today, I've learned, I'm glad that it turned out to be, you're not a horrible person. That really helps. Or it's just going to be like a Jerry Springer show. A throwback, right? Exactly, yeah. But I like that because it helps me learn something about myself.

So then I always want to make the joke that the very next time that somebody this close to me writes a book and doesn't mention me and I don't check my Marco Polos, then I'll know exactly how to handle it. That would be good. But that isn't the point, right? It's not like it happens every day. No, no.

It's every couple weeks or so. So, I do want to throw, and I like what you're saying about identity because then I think part of that acceptance is that accepting that it is a process and it's an act that we talk about. If you are living through values that you have basically been given, which we all start from there, but then you don't feel like that really is who I am, then you're living this life of social compliance. And they talk about socially compliant goals.

And so if I'm doing something because I think I'm supposed to or I'm doing it for somebody else, then my motivation is going to be pretty weak and ineffective because it goes against my process of becoming or my process of unfolding. And so that's what I like about where, okay, if my goal is to figure out this

God-given identity and the only way I can do it is by doing and being, interacting and having these experiences because all of them apparently are going to be for my good. So I heard and I believe that now. A lot of times it's in hindsight. I love that. that identity is going to continually evolve. And so, and I, tell me if you see this, I see often when couples are struggling that somebody is saying, okay, but he or she, but they've changed.

This isn't who I married. And that's where I often say, well, that's, that's okay. We're all changing. Yeah. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of times people that change is scary because it comes with a bunch of uncertainty. Yeah. Right. Nothing comes to mind. I know. I was sitting there like, I have talked a lot about Kurt's, not talking about Kurt's book.

No, that's great. We've touched on all sorts of things. So then let me just mention there, because while it's up there, the opposite of the normal healthy narcissism, I would love your take on this. Okay. Because I think that now this is one where it jumps right into pathological defensive narcissism. But then when I throw emotional immaturity around this, man, I feel like this is one that can really hit people hard if they're willing to own up to things.

Because I think once you find your ego or your identity, part of what comes with that is that, oh, now that I realize I know the things I know because they're my experiences and it's things that I have learned or they are important to me, it's a little easier to then admit to the things you don't know. And this is where I start talking about the things we don't know that we don't know. Because once I recognize, oh, now I understand more about these things that

are important to me and I'm finding my identity or ego, then I know I didn't even know this was the direction I would go. So that means there's going to be more things I don't know that I don't know. So it leaves me more curious. It leaves me not as defensive. So the pathological defense of narcissism, this Eleanor Greenberg says, this is a defense against the feelings of inferiority. The person dons a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world that he or she is special.

Inside, the person feels very insecure about his or her actual self-worth. And this facade of superiority is so thin that it's like a helium balloon.

One small pinprick will deflate it. This makes a person hypersensitive to minor slights that somebody with healthy ego wouldn't even notice and since somebody with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded they frequently take any form of disagreement a serious criticism and they're likely to lash out and devalue anybody who they think is disagreeing with them they're constantly on guard trying to protect their status it can be thought as a protective armor on the outside of

us what does that bring up yeah and that's what strikes me is that in the defensive narcissism she's focused on identity where that's not it seems like in the healthy narcissism she's more focused on on behavior so So that's why I made that tweet where this is a quest for that defensive narcissism. He, he or she is living for an identity. Yeah. Like I've got to, I've got to make sure that this, cause this protects

me of that feeling of inferiority. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to reconcile that feeling. Yeah. And so, and what I appreciate that is because then this is where we start. And I know we did this on the podcast with you where I was talking about narcissism and emotional immaturity and leadership, because then it doesn't leave room for somebody else's opinion because then And if you have a different opinion, then the immature thinks that, oh, so you think I'm wrong.

It's all that black or white thinking. That's a threat of being inferior. Yeah, yeah. And now throw that invalidation piece in there too. And now the person is going to lash out to defend their fragile ego. Here's something I've been thinking about lately. And I want you to tell, you can yeah about it. You can tell me I'm wrong. Okay. But when I've been preparing for the, oh, I don't think I even finished the story. So you have never told me not to come out and do this fireside,

but I not followed up on doing the fireside. And so therefore,

my first thought when you were now. The evil person was that, hey, why hasn't Kurt followed up with me on that fireside or that podcast on Leading Saints? Oh, because that's my job to follow up with him because I never answered more questions about what I thought about it. So then I realized I had to take ownership of that. So that was kind of funny. Gotcha.

But on this concept, though, if the defense of narcissism or the ego defense, I will be editing this part out because I lost my train of thought. I really want to find it again. You're sharing something that I may say, yeah, but. Okay. Yes. Yes. So, I was going into this differentiation piece again. So, the curiosity, I think that needs to be, it needs to just be everywhere.

So, I find that maybe, let's say a Sunday school class and somebody brings up a scripture or this is something that they think somebody's quote means this. Instead of, I feel like so often, instead of somebody else saying, oh, tell me more and I want to hear you. I want to know why that's what your interpretation of that scripture or that quote is.

Then somebody else says well actually i think it means this and so now we're getting defensive and so instead of i i really feel like the scriptures themselves are these muses these things that we interact with and they can mean a different thing whenever we approach them based on where we're at in our life but i feel so often instead of looking at it that way somebody then if they're coming from this unhealthy ego then it's the oh so you think i'm wrong with what i think it means and i'm

never saying no it's your experience yeah who am i to tell you you're experience or your thoughts or feelings are wrong right but

i think that happens a lot right right because we're talking about the context of the scripture because we feel like there's a certain way like these are founded in truth yeah they don't change so there's a one way to interpret this scripture when in reality god is inviting us to step in and he'll show us he'll come to us in all sorts of ways in scriptures outside the scripture absolutely and there's not you don't have to.

And sometimes we get mixed up with this quest to be the college professor that can talk about scripture. Because we'll get validated. Because we'll get validation. And that was so difficult for me. You know, when I talk about stages of faith, when I was teaching seminary, I always thought, well, if I teach seminary, then I will learn these scriptures like the back of my hand. And I'll finally be that person that can speak confidently and eloquently about them.

But I never was because at that point, well, undiagnosed ADHD. And I felt like that was one of those concepts where then I felt like that I wasn't enough. I was never going to be like these people then that could quote scripture and verse because I'd spent years now teaching, but not realizing that the years teaching were actually the opportunity for me to get to know how to teach in my own way, my own voice.

So that was amazing when I realized, oh, that's it. It's not so that I can become this other person that I think I'm supposed to be like you're saying. I was chasing identity. I was. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. I need to ask you more questions, Kurt.

What's the best thing when we get together we just have a great discussion what are you doing what are you doing with the wheelbarrows full of money that you've made from your book oh well i'm investing it in anything your your next book okay okay i was gonna joke and say man i i my experience so far with the publishing industry is apparently that is not the way that we get no i'm just praying for breaking even right if we can get to there maybe i'll write another book tell me about

this fireside you know you know what i know because because i'm hoping Hoping that you get sick and don't get to do it. And then people will hear this. It will have already happened. This is so fun. We covered all kinds of stuff. We're back. We're boys. Well-rounded podcast. Yeah. But it'll probably be the least amount of interview on your book that you will probably do in your podcast tour. Yeah, but you taught me half of this. Oh, boy. Even though I didn't give you credit for it.

Now it's there, it's out. That's right. Kurt Francom, what a joy. Thanks, man. We're pals again.

Again we are the band's back together even though you never knew we weren't that's right that's a surprise for you don't let that happen again tony i will i will never i will never abandon my friend tony because god will never abandon me okay you want me to tell you a funny thing though then we'll wrap it up okay i was complaining a little bit about this maybe this on my intern nate christensen is awesome he's been on the podcast a bunch i think that nate would freak out if he when

he hears this part where i'm like you should have nate on leading saints because he's like no but he's got a great story but then i was just talking about it and we were in clinical supervision. So I'm supposed to be helping him, but I'm giving him this example of real life and how immature a person like myself can be. But he just said, okay, let me start this hypothetical. He said, what if all of a sudden...

Somebody came to you and they said, okay, you can no longer do a podcast or talk to anybody again, or else I'll do something nefarious to your entire family. And you knew that they really could do it. I was like, oh, I disappear and nobody would ever hear from me again. Oh, so maybe Kurt, maybe the mafia or the mob told Kurt, like you can't ever put Tony in anything. Yeah. So is that maybe what happened? No. But you couldn't tell me if it was. Right.

Well, then I'd have to prove it to you by having you on the Leading Saints podcast again.

Again oh yeah so let's do that okay maybe they gave you one out that you could do that that was my whole goal that was the whole reason i threw that so there you heard it folks i will be, still recurring your way on the podcast again at least two more times okay and i will i will demand double my fee yes okay okay because that is nothing all right kurt franklin thank you i would shake your hand but you've you're very sick i'm hacking and i'm

already too close i should should be wearing a mask very close exactly oh find your book though for real on amazon yeah amazon is there yeah and select costco's along the wasatch front really arizona okay idaho utah i think a few in california but yeah but yeah but desert book is not yet validated me really i'm sure that i'm sure they will that's what's that like for you it's been hard well i'm sort of like come on guys you know let's do

this but it's fine that they're on their own timetable and it'll sell what it needs to sell regardless of who validates it. Yeah, and honestly, I know, I will tell you, get the book, please. It is really good. As I was fast and really reading it, then I did notice some really good points and I did go back in and slow, happily read it later. And I can't wait to do that again. Oh, I saw you, the audio book is out as well? Yeah. Who read it? Me. How was that? I know, I should have asked you to read

it. Oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that. Now it is? No, when we did our book, we hired people too.

And i wish i would have done it was that a crazy process maddening process easy process it was easy really um yeah i mean the guy i worked with i actually recorded everything just at my you know because i do a podcast so yeah equipment yeah i just read it and sent it to him he fixed you know any mess ups or had me reread a few parts or and it was slick easy peasy do you listen to a lot of audiobooks yourself oh yeah same

do you ever get the ones where you can hear this person's like like nasal breathing or they're like with their mouth or anything. Or you can tell when they like called it a day, suddenly they have like a morning voice or something. And they're like, Hey, did you get sick all of a sudden? Okay. All right, Kurt, go and do and be, and we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for joining me on the virtual. Music.