Hey everybody, before we get started with today's episode, stay tuned after the end of the Virtual Couch episode for a 15-minute sneak preview of Murder on the Couch. It is out now. Go subscribe, follow, like on YouTube as well as wherever you listen to podcasts. And I can't wait to hear what you have to say. Okay, now, on to today's show.
So I can still remember attending a Johnson City Cardinals baseball game. I believe they were in the rookie league of the minor leagues of baseball with my papaw in, Johnson City, Tennessee when I was little like really little maybe six or seven years old we stopped by five and dime shop I think it was called Baird store where I would get what my papaw would call my supplies which consisted of these little chocolate taffies called BB bats and I remember we would put them
in a little bag which to this day I remember we called a poke which I have not heard ever since but those BB bats were just amazing and I saw them recently at a vintage candy store in Arizona, and it just brought back such good memories.
But my papa and I would head off to the game, we'd have my older brother Tim with me, and I remember sitting next to my papa, and he would get the seats right behind the catcher, and he would go back and forth with the visiting team when they came up to bat, and he would tirelessly work the ump when Johnson City was up, to the point where even the little kid, me, saw that Johnson City was getting away with bad calls because the ump was so focused on my papa.
But what I also remember being focused on was the forest of white hairs pouring from the inside of my papa's ears. That is right, this nostalgic moment is brought to you by ear hair, something that you don't have to worry about until you do, and then you learn that ear and nose hair seems to literally be the fastest growing hair on the male body, which of course leads to a tangent.
According to an article from the Cleveland Clinic, nose and ear hair are not only necessary, Especially at this time of year as researchers find that a dense layer of nose hair can actually decrease your risk of developing asthma in conjunction with hay fever. And I can say that both of those things are bad for me this time of year. But better yet, nose hairs naturally get longer and thicker as you get older.
It's part of a process called antigen sensitivity or basically long-term exposure to hormones in your body. That same phenomenon can fuel troll doll hair in your ears and on your eyebrows. And note that this is not going to be a one and done job, that nose hair will grow back. Another very fast fact, the average nose hair follicle grows over six feet during a person's lifetime, which definitely explains why this is a concern.
And as a bald human being, it does make me wonder if I could have pulled off just the world's greatest comb over if I would really been committed. But why all this ear and nose hair talk? So admittedly, and I almost forgot actually, but in comes the ear and nose hair trimmer. So if you visit any Ross or TJ Maxx, I'm sure there are numerous other stores, these department stores like those, and then you head toward the back.
Again, these are clothing stores, but they are also almost like these retail therapy establishments. When I used to travel a lot, I found myself walking around these stores when bored just for something to do, to get out and about. And I mentioned this because I have talked to several people over the years that seem to do the same thing. On the lookout for a bargain on some name brand pair of shoes or shirt or pants or you name it.
But there is a section somewhere in the back where the jump ropes and the forearm flexors sit alongside the beard oils and the yoga mats where you can get a cheap bottle of Adidas cologne while also deciding whether or not you need the complete finger and toenail trimmer kit. But inevitably, you find your way to the end cap and there lies dozens of different ear and nose hair trimming gadgets.
Only when you first start going, you're maybe in your 20s or your 30s, you just give him a little cursory glance and maybe see an old timer eyeballing him and you can see a couple, of stragglers hanging down from his nose from where you stand and yeah, he does need a trimmer, I'm sure. Seems kind of gross at that time, but that'll never be you until eventually it is. And you may even hypothetically now own, oh, I don't know, say four or five of them because
you need them and you now know what you didn't know before. And if somebody tried to tell you to keep those feisty follicles trimmed back from the get-go, you would have thought that they were
crazy. And yeah, maybe you need a trimmer, but I'm a gentleman. It's not a big deal, but you didn't know, again, what you didn't know and now you know, and you want every able-bodied young male to know what you wish you would have known about the nose and ear hair trimmers far before you had a grandkid and you caught him eyeballing your ears, just mesmerized. Okay, so this opening is long and it is a stretch, but I was truly going to come up
with something that I had no idea about until I did. And with the nose hair trimmer, it's not too late to make it a routine, which becomes a habit. But relationships, we definitely don't know what we don't know. And while this marriage therapist is not saying that it's too late, if you're only hearing what I'm about to share with you a decade or two into your marriage, trust me, the sooner you can have these tools that we'll talk about on today's podcast in your
marriage and relationships, the sooner the better. Because unlike seeing your reflection in the mirror and thinking to yourself, I could use a trim by the time you see the ear and nose hairs of your marriage, I don't want to say it's too late, but I mean, you are going to have some work to do.
Now, it is worth it, but what the articles that I'm going to refer to today and the information that I'm going to share, what they don't necessarily talk about, is the difficulty in teaching an old, long-ear-haired dog new tricks. But I'll give you the tools that you need today, that, and so much more, coming up on on today's episode of The Virtual Couch. Music. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 375 of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host Tony Overbay.
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified Mindful Habit Coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and creator of The Path Back. I sound so enthused about this intro today, but it is still an amazing online recovery program that helps people turn away from unhealthy coping mechanisms like pornography. Go to pathbackrecovery.com and we would love to see you as a part of the weekly group calls that are part of the Path Back program.
And speaking of weekly group calls, I am starting to put together a couple of group calls for men. Men who are in relationships where they feel like they are maybe the pathologically kind with the emotionally immature or narcissistic trait or tendency wife or even mom or an adult child or sister or any of those sort of things. So you can reach out at contact at tonyoverbay.com and I'll get you more information about that.
And Murder on the Couch was released yesterday with my daughter Sydney, and we take on a case about a person named Abby Choi. And my daughter Sydney did an amazing job in producing the episode. So please go subscribe, follow. It's on YouTube. It's also on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts, Murder on the Couch. And that is with my daughter Sydney and I. You can go to the link tree link in the show notes.
And I still have my $19 marriage workshop. We did the intro today of the not knowing the things that you don't know, and the marriage workshop is about 90 minutes. I really do go through all of the things that I think bring us into relationships and set us up, not for failure, but set us up to really...
Realize that we don't know what we don't know about the best way to show up in a relationship So I go through my four pillars and a whole lot of other things talk about abandonment and attachment and that sort of stuff And then go listen to waking up to narcissism both the free episodes and the premium episodes which are question-and-answer episodes $4.99 a month and you have access to that premium content and all the proceeds go to help people that are in in
in emotionally unhealthy relationships. So let's get to today's topic. We are talking about nine phrases. That will make your relationship very successful. The article itself is titled Harvard Trained Psychologist. If you use any of these nine phrases every day, your relationship is more successful than most.
And this is from Dr. Courtney Warren, PhD. She's a board-certified psychologist and author of Letting Go of Your Ex. She specializes in marriages, love addiction, and breakups and received her clinical training at Harvard Medical School. She's written almost 50 peer-reviewed journal articles and delivered more than 75 presentations on the psychology of relationships.
So I think that the credentials are here and I just want to talk about my take on these nine phrases every day and maybe add some more insight from my role as a marriage therapist on what I think could help in relationships because I really wanna get to that part of here are the things that we really don't understand about what a healthy relationship looks like.
Courtney says, every relationship does have its rough patches, but what really matters is how you and your partner interact on a regular basis. She said, as a Harvard-trained psychologist, she's found that the happiest couples do not avoid conflict, they navigate it by speaking to each other with appreciation and respect. And unfortunately, she said, she's seen a lot of marriages end due to poor communication and an unwillingness to change.
I think that what is so important about this is sometimes I do feel like the nails on the chalkboard thing as a marriage therapist is seeing people just continually. Tell the other person how they're feeling, what they're thinking, what they don't understand,
why. And so really if we step back again and say, I feel like that is a way that one person in the relationship is trying to either get rid of their discomfort by controlling the other person, or relieving their anxiety by trying to tell the other person what they need to do. It's often a form of needing external validation. If one of the partners says that, okay, I don't don't feel good about myself, so now I need you, other partner or spouse, to make me feel better.
It's almost as if they're just saying, okay, now start trying. Nope, that's not doing it, that's not doing it, therefore you don't care about me and you don't even understand what you are doing wrong. So we just do so many things in our relationships that are just unhealthy and then we're trying to argue or try to communicate our way out of what is already an unhealthy pattern. So what is a healthy relationship? I did an episode on waking up to narcissism last week.
About the antagonistic attachment patterns of the emotionally immature or the narcissistic person. And I referenced an article by Julie Hall and she's written a book as well. And she's also creator of the Narcissist Family Files website, which is an amazing resource, if you are exploring emotional immaturity or narcissism in your family of origin or in the family that you are maybe married into. But she had a really good quote and this is what she said a healthy relationship looks like.
She said, a securely attached humans approach relationships cooperatively. They work together to achieve shared goals, seek and give empathetic validation, share, accurate and truthful information, and express affection and vulnerability to build trust and intimacy in their relationships. There may be conflict, there may be disagreement, but mutual support is the foundation of the relationship, and respect and love are not at stake.
So there's a couple of key components in there and one is I think that they are working together, that the relationship is a cooperative, that it's not a dictatorship, and that they work to achieve shared goals. So that would assume that we've even discussed what our goals are. Now it doesn't mean that we have to have the exact same goals but I think this is where we need to start exploring what even matters to each one of you as an individual and a lot of times that is
not work that is being done. So then people just show up and they're kind of tiptoeing around. Wants or desires or what they feel are needs without being able to communicate these accurately. And a lot of times people are working off of a, this is what we're supposed to want as a family or as a couple. So there's a lot of work that can be done before we even get to this point
of saying, okay, here is our shared goal that we're going to work to achieve. But then C can can give empathetic validation. So empathetic validation is different from just seeking validation. Validation is tell me or help me understand or make me feel better about myself. And I really feel like empathetic validation is I'm gonna try to express empathy, and tell this person that I care about them and I want to know more and I want to understand.
I mean, that is a form of validation that is done from a place of curiosity and concern and care, not from a place of just say random things that will make me feel better about myself. And if that's the wrong one, then you obviously don't care. But then she says, sharing accurate and truthful information.
And I think that is the part that can be really difficult because again if we grew up with unhealthy models of relationships, then our feelings, our needs, our desires, our wants, our hopes, our dreams weren't always encouraged. And at some points they were even discouraged because we were told to not think that or don't worry about that or how am I supposed to make that happen or you're such a dreamer or you're going to have to calm that imagination someday.
Day. And so in those scenarios, then the person often doesn't even feel like they can express themselves. So sharing accurate and truthful information can be a really difficult thing when somebody grows up and feels like if they express what they really feel that that will make the other person mad or the other person will dismiss what they are sharing. So it takes a lot of work to be able to show up and share accurate and
truthful information, because it can feel really uncomfortable and it may even lead to some tension. But again, tension is actually an area where you can have growth in a relationship. But we're so afraid of contention that we stay away from the tension altogether. She said there may be conflict, there might be disagreement, but mutual support is the foundation. And then respect and love are not at stake. Because if we're always at this place where we fear that the love will be withdrawn, or that the person will no longer respect or care about us, then we are more
judicious about the things that we say or the things that we want to express. So those things need to not be at stake with every conversation, as if every, every interaction has this potential to take the relationship South. So there's actually a really good thread of this in the private women's Facebook group. That's part of the waking up the narcissism podcast and community. And to that note, women, if you're interested, please reach out to me at contact at Tony overbay.com.
That's if you're in a relationship or interact with any individual or group who who you feel is emotionally immature or narcissistic. And then again, men, I'm putting together men's group as well. Someone asked the question simply what are the characteristics of a good marriage or relationship or what does that look like? How does that look? What do you desire most in a close relationship?
And so far there are a couple of comments that seem to nail it one read. It's a partnership. Things are balanced There's a lot of give-and-take, You are there for each other most of the time and bids for connection are usually responded to, Both know how to repair and reconnect after conflict. There's true intimacy respect care for one another physically emotionally and spiritually
spiritually. Things are approached with curiosity, not assumptions. You listen to each other and your relationship and connection are something that you both prioritize. And another person who is in a new relationship said, in my new relationship I am shocked that I can tell him how I'm feeling or that I'm upset and he says he's sorry and he usually knows what he did to hurt me before I even say anything. There's conflict but it's not a personal attack.
So this really is why I wanted to tackle today's topic. So what does a healthy relationship even look like. So back to what Courtney Warren shared, she says, so if you use any of these phrases with your partner, your relationship is more successful than most others. The first one she said is, I appreciate your effort. She said, it is really tempting to become overly focused on things that you don't like about your partner and to point them out at every chance you get. But,
it's important to highlight the good in their actions. Happy couples express gratitude for each other's efforts. It's a great way to make everybody feel valued. She said other similar phrases or I appreciate that you work so hard to support the family or I'm grateful that you take the kids to school because it helps me get things
done in the morning. But where I would dig a little deeper on this one myself is when I appreciate that she said that often we're so focused on the little things that I do feel like if we're keeping a mental scorecard on all the little things that annoy me, then that becomes what it feels like to be you is that you are constantly pointing out or or keeping track or taking notes of the little things that bother you.
And unfortunately, this comes from that book, The Buddha Brain, that I love so much by Rick Hansen, where he said that those negative experiences, the brain is like Velcro for negative and Teflon for the positive. They were almost wired to just remember these negative experiences because it's kind of in our DNA as a bit of a survival instinct. Because we still have this feeling that if we don't hang on to these negative experiences than we may get taken advantage of.
And so it can be really difficult to lean in into a relationship when we're just continually looking for the things that we can pick apart from our partner, our spouse. And I think if you step back and take a look at the concepts around things that make me uncomfortable and then how do I want to get rid of my discomfort, then that's where I wanna say love or control because the control might allow you to get rid of some of your discomfort.
Hey, I need you to do this a certain way because I noticed these little things that really bother me, and I wanna meet somebody where they're at if they're coming in and that's the conversations that we're having in couples therapy, but I can't lie. I'm hoping to get us to this promised land of where the conversations are around curiosity. Hey, tell me more about how you do that.
Or tell me why, honestly, why, you know, something as simple as why do you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle versus at the bottom? Instead of somebody saying, you know what bothers me? The way that you squeeze it in the middle. Like, that just drives me crazy. Because in reality, that's a me thing. Now, I can be curious, hey, why do you squeeze it in the middle? And the person may even say, I don't know. I've never really even thought about it.
So in that scenario, if for some reason, then you say, well, I don't know, check this out, but it would just, there's a part of me that just feels better when I see somebody squeeze it from the bottom because when I was a kid, we had to squeeze every single bit of toothpaste out of the toothpaste tube. Then I feel like, boy, as a spouse, I would say, oh, I'm in. So if you notice I did it in the middle again, just remind me, because I have no ill will, no bad intentions.
But if somebody is just saying, man, he squeezes the toothpaste in the middle, he leaves the toilet paper under, the roll under instead of over, which is incorrect, by the way, then all these things start to just add up. So there's two ways to do this. One is if we bring that up, if you want to bring it up, it isn't a, hey, that bothers me, but hey, tell me more, help me understand.
And, but, or it could also be a moment for me to look inward, to self-confront and say, why is that a problem for me? You know, is it because I was told it had to be a certain way when I was younger, so it makes me uncomfortable if I see things a different way? Oh, well, let me embrace that discomfort. This might be an opportunity for growth. Number two, the second phrase that she said, if you use this, your relationship is more successful than most, is I like you.
She said the healthiest couples don't just love each other, they like each other. And I think there's something really to be said here is that if you enjoy spending time with each other, it's not something that you just have to tolerate, then that does make things just so much better. When I talk about these levels of intimacy, we often find our partner attractive, that's how we get together, it's just kind of a little bit of the way the human condition is.
But if we really dig down underneath and then we have verbal intimacy where I enjoy actually talking to my partner, and then up from verbal intimacy is this emotional intimacy and then I feel like I can open up about my emotions and above that's the cognitive and intellectual intimacy, and then spiritual intimacy and physical is this byproduct of spending time that I think you can see that somewhere along that foundation would be like, I like you, I like spending time with you.
You know, loving someone, Courtney says, is an intense feeling of an affection. Liking is about seeing them for who they are and acknowledging the attributes that you enjoy about them. So she said similar phrases might be, I like that you're so passionate about staying healthy, or I like how devoted you are to your hobbies. The third phrase that she said, if you use every day, your relationship will be more successful, is help me better understand.
You know, we all have these different upbringings. She talks about that we have different vulnerabilities and values and beliefs and those shape how we think relationships should work. So if your partner reacts to a situation in a way that you don't understand, telling them that you want to know them better is a key to resolving conflict and bonding at a deeper level. Here's where I can jump into my four pillars. If someone does something a certain way, I want to assume good intentions.
Or there's a reason why they do what they do, that they didn't wake up in the morning and think I'm throwing this toilet paper roll under because I cannot wait until that just gets under the skin of my spouse. I don't think that's the way it works. So if, if we can assume those good intentions and then my pillar two and not go into a conversation ready and armed with you're wrong, or I don't believe you, or that, that makes no sense, or that's ridiculous or that's silly.
We can't do, we may think those things, but we want to just put those over to the side because that would lead to pillar three of questions. Hey, tell me more. Questions before comments. I want to understand. I want to know more about you. We're together. We are in a relationship. Let me understand. Help me understand more.
And if somebody shares something, then pillar four is to stay present. Don't go into your bunker. Don't go into a victim mode and say, well, I guess my way's wrong and your way's right. I mean, that's that emotional immaturity or this zero-sum game that there has to be a winner and a loser or a right and wrong or a good and bad. When right now we really want to explore just tell me more. How are
things? Help me understand what things are like for you. She said similar phrases are I don't know why this is so upsetting to you so please help me see your perspective. And if you are the person that is saying that, this is where, and I appreciate articles like this.
We need a place that we can start to work from, but I also know, I'm fairly confident that a lot of times, these conversations can be awkward because even if somebody's listening to this and they jot down, okay, I don't know why this is so upsetting to you, please help me see your perspective. And now their spouse does something that is contrary to what they think should be done, and you name it, fill in the blank. Why did you put the kids to bed at 7.30 instead of 7.45?
And then you say, hey, I really want to, help me see your perspective. And then if you're already going in there, because saying, well, because your perspective's wrong, but I'm willing to listen, but then I get to tell you why you're wrong, then that's where we start to get into this emotional immaturity. Or the conversation is already, it's somewhat doomed from the start, because you've already made a judgment of what is the right way.
And so therefore, I will listen to you, but then I will tell you why you're wrong. And that is not being in a collaborative, dyadic union or partnership. Number four, she said, I'm listening. Disagreements are inevitable, but it's important to still support each other through active listening. You have to be willing to suspend your desire to be right or to get your point across long enough to hear and empathize with your partner's perspective.
This is my pillar three in a nutshell, questions before comments. I am gonna listen. I wanna hear everything I can about your experience, and I need to step outside of myself, step outside of my ego, and then I want to listen.
And because everything that we're hearing, If we aren't actively doing something to try and listen to someone else, that active listening, then everything that's coming at us, we're like this robot, this computer that's just making judgments on the fly and even making judgments about what that word, I think that word means and what I think you really are meaning and what I see your face looks like and your eyes say something different.
And so we have to actively suspend that judgment, step outside of our ego, and then be willing to then just be in that moment and try to understand what our partner is saying or what their experience is. So, she said similar phrases is, I'll stop talking now and really try to listen to your point of view or I want to hear your side of things even if ultimately we disagree.
The fifth one is pretty fascinating. It can be either the easiest thing in the world and it can be overused by people or it is something that is not said or it is said very emotionally immature and it is the two words, I'm sorry. When things don't go right or as planned, healthy couples know that both partners play a part in the situation. So she says, taking responsibility for a role in those conflicts and genuinely apologizing – there's the key – is critical to repairing rifts.
She said similar phrases, okay I didn't communicate my feelings in a respectful way to you and I'm sorry for that, or I didn't like the way that you acted last night but I also need to apologize for lashing out. And it is no secret that I work in the world of emotional immaturity or narcissism and there are people that just do not apologize.
And it is something that is so deep down in their core, it is such a childhood wound because, is the belief, this is that all or nothing black or white thinking, that if you grew up in a home where you didn't see accountability modeled. And as a matter of fact, if you said you did something and you got in trouble for it often, that is where that gaslighting starts to kick in as a childhood defense mechanism. Of course I didn't do it.
And then over time, we confabulate this story or this narrative where you start to create the narrative, well, it couldn't have been me, it was the other person. Or the only reason I did that is because you didn't tell me, or the teacher didn't tell me, or, well, nobody told me. And so you get so far away from taking personal responsibility that it can be really difficult and it needs to be something that you work on, that you address.
The apology can't be, okay, fine, I'm sorry, but I think that we're on two different pages. And as a matter of fact, I don't even know why we're having this conversation. And as a matter of fact, the more I think about it, the more frustrated I get. I think you should be apologizing to me. Now, we're back into the world of narcissistic apology or emotionally immature apologies.
We do not like to sit with discomfort, but it is one of the most mature things that we can do and definitely one of the things that will start to develop our emotional maturity. When somebody says, hey, I don't like the way you did this or I can't understand why you did this or why did you, you know, I thought you were going to do this. We need to learn to sit, sit and it will be uncomfortable and we try to get rid of that discomfort so often.
Okay, fine. I'm a horrible person, or, okay, well, it sounds like you've got it all figured out, or I didn't do that, and then I'm gonna hold my ground until you go away, or, okay, fine, I did it, but nobody told me, or I really thought you were gonna tell me before I did that, versus I'm gonna sit with it, and I am sorry. I really am, and I really didn't, either I completely forgot, or I, you know what, I looked at it a different way, but that's on me.
I could've asked more clarifying questions, but now I know, so yeah, I am so sorry. That's on me, my bad. And it sounds, it can sound so easy, but it is uncomfortable. But over time, that implicit memory, what it feels like to be you based on the slow residue of lived experience, becomes someone who does start to take ownership and accountability. And guess what you do? Well, guess what comes with that? It comes with a bonus of trust.
And it can even come with the add-on packs of confidence and admiration. Because what happens over time is I'm gonna be willing to take ownership of the things that I did. You're absolutely right, I did say that, I did mean that, I didn't follow through, period. And so then when you then say, oh, I, I, you know, I can understand why you felt that way, but I, I really did.
I said that I was going to go pick the person up at this time or what I mean by that is when you build a foundation based off of taking ownership or accountability, then it starts to feel safe to be with you. Because if you take ownership of it, then the person knows, oh, well, they're taking ownership of this. So that means that I can trust them. So therefore, when they also on other times say, oh, I'm so sorry that you thought that was my fault.
I actually had been asked to do this, or I had committed to do this, then the person can now feel, oh, okay, I trust them because they take ownership of the things. That they need to take ownership of, and therefore I can trust them when they say that this is what they really meant to do or that they felt was happening. So you start to build that confidence. What do we got, three, six, seven, eight, nine, four more. Number six is I forgive you. Can you forgive me?
Forgiveness can be really hard. She says it requires being vulnerable, letting go of something that caused you pain and changing your feelings toward your partner, but studies have shown that couples who practice forgiveness are more likely to enjoy longer, more satisfying relationships. Similar phrases are, I know we can't change the past, so I'm actively trying to let it go and move forward, or I made a mistake and I'm trying to forgive myself and I hope you can forgive me too.
And now the big difference or the challenges here are, and I'm just throwing the old marriage therapist hat on, is that this, again, an emotionally immature version this is fine but I don't ever want to talk about it again. Forgiveness though comes from we can process this. Hey how did that feel for you and I am so sorry
I can't even imagine what that was like for you. I had no idea or we were on a different page or you know what I was acting emotionally immature but can you forgive me because I really am sorry but not the okay fine do you forgive me and and let's never bring it up again. Because the more we learn about trauma and the body keeps the score, sometimes we can say, hey, okay, fine. I won't ever do it again. I won't think about it again. But tell my body that
because I need to start listening to my instincts. And that's the part where if all of a sudden it's coming up for me again, I need to have a way that I can communicate this to my partner in a safe way. Hey, I know that we already talked about this. I know we processed this, but check this out. When we, you know, I don't know, when we were getting ready to leave for this trip,
It was hard for me not to go back to this place of fill in the blank and having a spouse that says instead of saying really this again right before we leave but versus somebody saying man okay tell me what that's like I'm so sorry yeah I felt like we had kind of handled this but but it sounds like there's more there what a what an opportunity for connection so I forgive you can you forgive me but not done from a we will never talk about this again and never think about it again because again my brain is going to think about things and it's going to things may come up again but now I feel safe enough
that we can have conversations. Number seven, she says, I am committed to you. Being in a relationship is a choice and reassuring your partner that you're still choosing to be with them. And to work through those challenges will help create a sense of safety and stability. Some of the similar phrases she shared were, even when times are tough, I still choose to be with you or I'm here and I wanna make this work or we're a team.
And that I'm committed to you, and it really is a really, I love Jennifer Finlayson Fife, she's been on my podcast a bunch, and she talks about being chosen and choosing your partner. And that isn't just a cliche, that if we go back to some of the things we've talked about earlier, if you are looking for the things that your partner does wrong continually, I would make the argument that that doesn't feel like you are choosing them.
It looks like you are choosing the things to try to come up with a reason not to lean in or not to trust, not to be present. So I am committed to you. And things like divorce, obviously, are very real. I get couples in my office literally every day that we're contemplating, is the relationship viable?
But when the divorce card is just thrown in there now as a weapon, then that can just create this instability, which can often make it difficult for couples to try and communicate or work through things. And I know that that varies, your mileage may vary in the relationship, because some people have been trying for a long time. Some people have come to the conclusion, even when they learn to communicate more effectively with their spouse, that we really just aren't a good match.
And it's okay. It's even almost doing the harder thing is to say, okay, I'm holding you back and you deserve to be in a better relationship. And that can be a thing as well. Number eight. And, I like this one a lot. She said, it is let's have some fun. If.
You can find humor or playfully tease each other during tense moments, your relationship might be stronger than you think. The, happiest couples are able to break tension and recalibrate the mood by finding room for an authentic smile, silly banter or a lighthearted joke. Now this is not just saying, I was just joking, get over it, because this is that part where you go back to what does a healthy relationship look like? It is based on honesty and truthfulness.
So, but if you can find humor, and I find a lot of this is where if I react emotionally immature, then one of the best things I can do to diffuse that moment is to say, holy cow, I'm a big baby, I can't believe I was acting that way. You know, to take ownership of it, but then you can make fun of it. I think that it's really important for someone to make fun of themselves, it makes it a lot safer to then have a shared experience or a moment.
Oftentimes, if somebody just wants to make fun of the other person, that doesn't always go well. She said some similar phrases might be, we should get some fresh air. Do you wanna do something fun today? You know, I know I'm a lot sometimes. How about we take a breather from the tough topics and watch a comedy. And I really do believe that we need these shared experiences.
Everything doesn't have to be we're going on a cruise or we're going out on a date, or we have to have these deep conversations. One of the good things about having 900 million things that you can watch these days is get on a site like Rotten Tomatoes and find something that you think is rated well or that you would
like together and have a shared experience. My wife and I are on top of a particular trial that's what's going on right now, and we're having these shared experiences every day, talking about the recap of the trial. So I'll kind of mention that, I mean it's the Lori Vallow trial, which I want to eventually get to and cover on the Murder on the Couch podcast.
But just having these shared experiences, I guess that one isn't really humorous, but started from a place of let's get together, let's watch something together. And then the last thing that she said that is so important is, I love you. She said, this one is simple, but always worth reminding. Verbally expressing your romantic love for another keeps the relationship alive, and when you say it, make sure you mean it.
We sometimes become quite transactional in it, that hey, we say it when we get up, we say it before we go to bed, we say it when we get off the phone, and if you do want to say it in those times, stop for a second, take a little breath, look your partner in the eyes, and mean it, because we want this to not become something that just becomes rote, and I think that that can really go a long way.
I tell the, kind of I guess it's a joke, but a lighthearted story often of, I remember working with a couple where the wife said, hey, in essence, if I had it my way, you would say you love me more. And then the guy said, hey, I told you when we got married. And then he looked for the laugh track. But the more we dug into it was he grew up in a home where there wasn't a lot of affection.
And so he did really feel like, man, if he says it a lot, he feels like he's going to, it's gonna lose its value or it's not gonna be as sincere. And she said, I would really like that, to hear that more. And so they left and that was the homework. And ironically, when they came back the next week, She said, how's it going? I said, how's it going? And she's like, well, he's doing it, but it's only because you told him to. And then the guy looked at me like, I can't win.
And that's this concept of a double bind that sometimes we want to ask for something that we think we shouldn't have to ask for, but it's okay to bring things up that we would like more of. And if we can have those in a mature conversation, and then at that point, if your partner is doing that, then it's okay that you had to ask because we're growing.
If that is something that he or she was not doing before, then I am grateful that they're willing to make effort and so they may need a reminder at times. And so it may feel like, well, it's only because you told them to or because I asked, and the correct answer is, oh yeah, exactly.
Isn't that great that they're willing to try because over time again what it feels like to be them is somebody that now expresses more of their love so if you have other things I mean feel free to I'd love to get your emails or your comments if any of these resonate more than the other ones do but I hope that you can see that there are these ways that you can just be more intentional even these nine phrases and you can add them in and make your relationship a
little more successful every day and that it is that small residue of lived experience which is what eventually starts moving the needle on the connection and and I boy I was at a talk the other day and I'm probably talk about this in a and another podcast coming up a little earlier on just in case people are not listening right now but I had someone talking about the
concept of learning a language for example and they were talking about how they had gone on a mission to a country that spoke Spanish and so they came back They spoke Spanish and they said if they did not use it on a daily basis that then their their Spanish would go away more Rapid than they thought it would and it made me think of a friend of mine who had gone to Japan on a similar church service mission and,
And when the person came back, then they just never used it and now they're in their 50s It's been 30 years and they don't speak Japanese at all and they kick themselves But it's that concept where you must use things or else they will slowly start to recede I think it's that concept called marital entropy that if it's just left to its own devices.
It doesn't grow or flourish. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even stay stagnant. It starts to recede. So, these are wonderful tools that you can use to enhance and grow your relationship. Hey, don't touch that dial. Don't push that stop button. Because now, sit back, relax, and listen to True Crime Meets Therapy. I'm going to give you 15 or 20 minutes of the first episode of Murder on the Couch with my daughter, Sydney Overbay.
If you like this, please follow the link in the show notes and go subscribe or follow wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you want to see Sydney and I in action doing the podcast and she put a lot of production work into some visuals and other things, then follow the link in the show notes to the Virtual Couch YouTube channel where you can watch Murder on the Couch. I hope you enjoy. Music. Hey, Dad. Welcome to our... Well, no. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Are you kidding me right now?
Are you serious? I'm the pro. Do you care about this podcast at all? I've only done 400 other podcasts of my life. Okay. Welcome back to... too. Okay. Look at you, bro. Right? Hey, everybody. Welcome to murder on the couch. I am your host. I think I'm the co-host. We're both co-hosts. I think, but I like you being the host. Okay. I'm the host. This is your host, Sydney Overbay. This is Tony Overbay. I'm so used to going into the whole spiel. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,
a certified mindful habit coach, all that stuff. And I'm a college dropout, but a world traveler. Nonetheless, can you technically be called a dropout if you really kind of didn't attend? Right? Because it was during the whole COVID thing. That's true. I did attempt attending a couple of times. Did you really? No. Well, yes, but no. Did you ever get on the zoom calls or anything for college? I would bring my laptop into the car and then I would just drive around
while the zoom was just playing. So you were attending technically. I was attending. Was that in your height of your door dash days? So were you? Yeah. See, you were working hard while she's going to school and then just never again. We're excited to bring you true crime meets therapy. Exactly. So you're going to get the insight of a therapist, a real life therapist, and the insight of someone who needs therapy. That's true. So this is going to be really
exciting. And then the format, which I am so excited about is I am not going to prepare at all. So these stories are going to be new to me, which I'm really excited about that. No, yeah. I have been doing so much research on this case. I've read every article, I've gone to every corner, and it's crazy. Okay. It's really insane. What are we talking about today? What's the case? We are going to be talking about the disappearance and then dismemberment of Abby Choi.
If you're listening to this, please check out the YouTube version because there's so many videos. I feel like it really changes something when you put a face to the name. Also what if it has like four views? That would be really humbling so you should really go check it out. Okay, bye. Abby Choi was a mother of four, a social media influencer, a model, a socialite. She was so well known by everyone. Before we get into this case, I want to make a little disclaimer.
I feel like a lot of the coverage on true crime that has been coming out lately is a lot more exploitative than informative, if that makes sense. A lot of it is just like, oh, we want the gory details, you know, the shock factor. It's gross sometimes. And I really don't want that to be what this podcast is about. I want this to be about the facts, about, in this case, Abby, and we're not romanticizing the killers or anything. That's not what this is going to be about.
But yeah, I've been waiting to tell you about this for so long because it's been driving me crazy. Okay. And I like what you're saying. So then I don't have to prepare my over the top reactions then, uh, you know, how, right? What? Or I don't have to do any of those because I don't do that very well. No, no, this is going to be real. This is going to be real. Okay. Which if that's the case, are you prepared for me to interrupt?
Kind of like I just did there, but with, uh, amazing therapeutic knowledge around. This is one of the fun things about me and my dad's conversations is nobody ever stops talking. We just interrupt each other back and forth until the conversation... In the therapy world, I call it flow. Exactly. And when people don't appreciate that, they call it annoying. But I like the flow. Let's talk about the case. I want to give a little credit. I want to give a lot of credit to
Stephanie Sue. She's a true crime YouTuber. She's like one of the biggest people out there right now. I enjoy those. You turned me on to her. Rotten Mango is the name of her podcast. She goes to town on these cases and gives all of the articles that she used for research and stuff. So that really helped me with this. Credit to her. And we'll have links to some of the articles that you'll refer to in the show notes as, well. I will be doing that apparently.
That's what you do. Of course. Let's talk about Abby first. Abby was born on July 11th, 1994 in Hong Kong. Trying to do the math right now. 1994. When she disappeared, she was 28 years old, super young. She is the oldest of two sisters, so she has two younger sisters, and she has four children. Four children by 28. All of her friends and family have nothing but nice, like everyone loves this girl. She has such a genuine heart and a good spirit. Her current husband described her
as, and I quote, kind hearted and good person who always wanted to help others. Hearing him talk about her was so sad, but so sweet. He was just saying how lucky his kids were to have her as a mother. She was from a very, very wealthy family. So she grew up very comfortable, but she wasn't like a bratty rich kid in any way. She seemed to be the opposite of that. Her parents actually owned a huge construction business that ran throughout China. So she was very well known. But like I said,
she was not bratty at all. She was actually really, really giving. She was the co-founder of Hong Kong's, and I'm sorry if I pronounce anything wrong, Paeomae's Charitable Organization, which was an animal rescue organization. She's a good person. Paul Anthony 12 Having means, but then also still co-founding a charity for innocent animals.
Nicole Ligon 12 Exactly. And I feel like when somebody is nice to animals, it really says something about their character because there's nothing in it for you when you're nice to an animal. You know, like they're not going to be able to give you anything. So it just, it shows. A lot of selflessness, I think. One of her friends even tells a story about a time when they were walking down the road and they saw a very badly injured cat, had just been hit
by a car. He said there was flies around it and stuff already. And Abby was like, no, we are saving this cat. I don't care. Her friend was literally telling her, that is a corpse, don't. And she said, no, I'm going to save this cat. And she did. And the cat is doing so much better now. Really? Okay, so you spent time, you volunteered at an animal shelter in Costa Rica for two months. Did you save any cats like that? I was attacked by cats.
I was attacked by cats. I was attacked by rats. Chad Jordan Bats. Nicole Rivera There were bats. Chad Jordan There were bats. Dogs? Nicole Rivera Dogs. Chad Jordan What was that like though? Nicole Rivera All of the volunteers that would come in and out, they were all such good people. You don't really catch a crappy person volunteering at an animal shelter. Chad Jordan No. Nicole Rivera Just like I would- Chad Jordan Because what's in it for them, right?
Nicole Rivera Exactly. Yeah. Just like I would presume you wouldn't catch a bratty rich person literally starting a charity for animals. Chad Jordan Okay. First experience as therapists working with people that have money at times. One guy told me, and I thought this was so good. He said that money makes you more of whatever you are. So if you're a jerk, you become a
bigger jerk. But if you're a kind person, then you're even more kind. I like that. So it sounds like she took the money and became even kinder and more charitable. She was also a very, very successful model and influencer. Socialite is what they call it, I think, online. And she worked hard at this. Okay. I was stalking her Instagram. Not in a creepy way. Sure. Research.
Side note. I was thinking if I ever, not even wanting to put this into the universe, but if I ever went missing, please use cute pictures of me, please. So that's what I was researching pictures of her on like the, like just regular images. And then I was like, if this were me, I would want people to use approved Sydney approved pictures. So I went onto her Instagram and she's a hard working model. Okay.
Like it seemed like she was somewhere new. even every week, like every other day she was on runway. She was modeling for everyone featured in Vogue. She was featured in Elle. She was a regular attendee at Paris fashion week. Um, I can, I can say I have never been invited to Paris fashion week. If that's what that says. I wonder why. I don't know why it was lost in the mail. Yeah. I guess I've already done one. A shout out for Stephanie. Sue. How about one for for Paris Fashion Week.
I don't know why that's so funny. I'm going to be putting a lot of pictures on the screen right now, just of her at all of her shoots and stuff because she looks amazing. She's so cool. One thing that just kept growing and growing as I was researching this case was my love for this girl. Like she's so cool. So this is one of my favorite looks that she did. I'm kind of excited to see this.
They kept calling her a fashion icon and at first I was like, fashion icon, like that's such a cringy word to say. No, she is a fashion icon. Look at this look. literally so cool. She's wearing like leg warmer boots. Like I don't even know. A Chanel little dress thing. And like, she is so cool. I want to be here. Look at her bag. Look at that bag. It's literally like, it looks like a perfume bottle. It does. The things she's involved in designing are so sick. There's so many pictures of her with
animals in nature, like doing arts and painting and drawing. Like she was really, she just seemed really talented. Still living a life. I'm probably going to cut this out, but there is this one picture that I found on her Instagram. And look how she's sitting. I'm literally, I'm the only person that I know who sits like that. I don't put it up on the screen. You must keep that in because I have, I've literally talked to your mom about how do,
you do that? Because I think I would pop every leg and tendon in my body on a hard chair no less. Knees of steel. Now, last February 14th, the middle of March right now. Oh, so not last, like last year, but this year, February 14th, Valentine's Day. Valentine's Day just a few weeks ago. She posted her last Instagram post. And it was a repost of her on the cover of La Officielle magazine. I don't know. One of my favorites.
It's been featured there many times. And they titled her one of the most sought out influencers in the industry. So her career was booming. She was getting bigger and bigger every day. And so she was 28. Okay. Only 28 years old. There's a theory. Some believe in psychology around 27 is when you start really take off in life. Athletes are at their prime at 27. So I wonder if that's an influencer thing as well. So she's in her prime. Little did anyone know she would disappear just.
Like 10 days after that. Wow. So first I'm going to take you to the crime scene before we really get into it. Okay. So this was February 24th. Police finally get enough information to go investigate. Abby's been missing for three days at this point. Oh, okay. So police go to investigate this creepy apartment on the bottom of three floors in Lung May Tsuen, a seaside village in Hong Kong. C-Milk Seaside, so I'm sure it was pretty nice, I would imagine?
Yes, it was nice. It was like a very public, really popular area. And immediately as the police pulled up, they knew that something was wrong because the house was so creepy. There were long black tarps covering all of the windows and all of the entrances. Neighbors also had been sussed out for weeks before this. I know what that means. They were suspicious. The neighbors said that they'd never seen anyone spend the night at this house, but
they just kept seeing people kind of show up and leave. And they saw this old man who was just like chain smoking on the side. He looked stressed out, but nobody knew who he was at this point. So the police opened the door and the floors are covered in plastic. That's not good. I mean, unless they're painting the ceiling. The ceiling was not being painted, I can confirm. The house was completely empty. So no furniture or anything like that? Zero furniture. Okay, now this is really creepy.
As they walk deeper into the apartment, they are faced with what one article describes as a human butcher shop. Upon further investigation, police found Abby's remains not only in the fridge, but also cooked into two pots of soup with carrots and radishes. I don't even know what to say. Absolutely not. Yeah. There's nothing to say. Now, who would want to do this to such a kind, good-hearted mother of four?
What if I told you that it was not only the father of her own two children, but his entire family? Oh. And not only that, but what if I told you this entire family was living under the roof of a luxury apartment that Abby bought them herself. Nick Lopertz Okay. I was already kind of stumped a few minutes ago, but I don't even know what to say to that. I mean, they couldn't... Nicole Giante Yeah, it's insane, right? Nick Lopertz It really is. She bought them the place they're living in.
Nicole Giante Yes. Nick Lopertz And then they not only murder her, and it was a month ago. Nicole Giante I feel like the best way to understand this case is to start with Abby's ex-in-laws, the Kwong family. Nick Lopertz Okay. They are shady as fuck, let me tell you. But just laying it out first so you can get a feel for- You have a family tree almost? Yeah, a little family tree moment. So first we have Quang Quao. He is the father-in-law,
the ex-father-in-law of Abby, and he's married to Jenny Lee. They have two sons together. The oldest one's name is Anthony Quang and Alex Quang, and this is going to be Abby's ex-husband. I feel like to really understand this, we have to start all the way at the top with Kwan Kwao. So let's get into that. Now, this is her ex-father-in-law, so... Nick Lopatetti, J.D. Ex-husband's dad. Okay. Yes. This is all the way back in the early 2000s. He was a former police sergeant in the Hong Kong
Police Department. And at this point, they were doing pretty well for their family, I believe. He loved this job. He was obsessed with this job. It was his entire identity. He was good at it at first. You could say good, if that's the right word. He was awarded the Hong Kong Police Long Service Medal in 2001. I think he even got another medal at some point too. He was confident. He loved being a police officer. He loved the authority. And most of all, he loved the power.
There's a little foreshadowing maybe? Yes, definitely. It's crazy though. And I like the way that you laid it out because now my brain is going a million miles an hour of the whole family is involved. And now we're talking about a decorated police officer. Everything's going fine for Quan Quao until 2005 when a woman walks into the police station, a victim of a crime. She's in distress, obviously. He took a liking to her
immediately and he felt connected to her for some reason, for whatever reason. And he was listening to her and really like making her feel like he cared and like he cared about the case and getting her justice. Yeah. She actually felt very appreciative of this. I bet she felt safe. I would imagine heard scene, okay. Which is so important in a situation like that. He's calling her outside of the investigation at this point and stuff. And she still thinks
it's just for the investigation. Like he's that good of a police officer. She goes home that night and she goes to sleep. Finally thinks that someone's listening to her case. Everything's going great. And then she wakes up to a loud knocking on her door at like five or six in the morning, which first of all, why are you knocking on my door at five in the morning? She does answer the door though, because it's police officer Kwan Kwao.
And already the power imbalance there. Of course she's going to answer the door, right? So she lets him in. He says it's for the investigation or whatever. And he allegedly rapes her. Oh. Oh man. In her own home. OK. So, I have to say allegedly because he resigned immediately after this. So that there wouldn't be an investigation? Charges were dropped. They were. Okay. Exactly.
And again, allegedly, hypothetically, there could have been a deal made or you quit and we let this thing go or who knows? Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. But it's pretty suspicious that as somebody who was so in love with this job, it was his entire identity. Him to resign immediately after. I don't know. It's just kind of suspicious to me. So alleged, but it seems a little fishy. Very fishy. This was all the way in 2005. She had nothing to gain from condemning a police officer. Oh, I see.
As a woman, I don't see what she would have gotten out of that. And just the fact that he didn't even try to defend it when this job was his entire life is very suspicious to me. So then all of a sudden he just quits. Yeah. He quits. The one thing that gave him like character. Again, alleged, but I can only imagine what do you say that, yeah, I just ran over there at five in the morning. Yeah, exactly. Give her an update. Like what update? Yeah.
And it's like, if he had one, then he would have had a defense.
It just doesn't make sense. The abuse of power, by the way, I mean, cause that, that stuff, when somebody is that vulnerable and open and then you trust and you feel heard and understood and it, cause in my world of therapy, you get these things where people make claims against therapists and you get monthly update and every therapist I think will go check out what the accusations are and they're almost always someone ended up having an affair or sex with their client.
Wow. And they lose their license. They get fined because it's like, here's this person that is opening up and vulnerable and trusting you. And then here's this therapist is saying, I feel a connection. You know, that's right. The power imbalance. Yeah. The power imbalance is bad. Is crazy. Like, and just like to re traumatize this girl who's already been through something so traumatizing to make her feel safe. Yeah. And then to take advantage of
that. Like, it's absolutely repulsive. I just, I couldn't even believe that. No, that one's, that is bad. He resigns, the charges are dropped and he basically just never tries to get a job again. His life kind of just plateaus from there. He doesn't want a job. He doesn't try to get one. According to all the online records. It seems that he just felt as though he was entitled to the world, but he didn't have to work for it. I feel like there's has to be some form of narcissism
that runs through the Kwong family because they think they are gods. And it's like, bro, what? You literally assaulted someone. Wait, let's jump into the old therapy world because I work with, you know, this, the big population of narcissistic personality disorder, people that struggle with that. And there's a concept called confabulation, which is the narcissist is creating a new narrative of.
What really happened in real time so that it couldn't have been them. So that's where I feel like, you know, somebody might resign, but it isn't because they did anything wrong. Because they are the ones, people don't understand them. They go victim status, you know? Yeah. Of course he wouldn't fight it because he knew that he would be wrong deep down. And then why would he try to get a job when now he thinks everybody's against them and
you know, what's he going to do? And it's just a way for that person to still justify their behavior. So four years of unemployment pass on his part and then he becomes essentially Abby Choi's sugar baby. Let me explain. In 2009, Abby Choi meets Alex Kwong. So she's about 15 then at this point? Yes. She's 15 years old. He's also 15. And Alex Kwong is Kwon Kwa's son, as we know. We can assume that Kwon Kwa was pretty excited when
they met because Abby Choi was from a very, very wealthy family. Of course, we don't know the details and facts about that, but with what ends up happening, suspicious on his part and on Alex Kwong's part. So they stayed together for three years and then they get married at age 18. Oh, that's young. Mm-hmm. And then they pop out a baby within the same year when they were only 18 years old. So very, very young marriage. Never do that. Anybody don't get married at 18.
Do you know how old your mom and I were? What? She was 19. I was 20. Did you know that? No, I didn't actually know. We were, we thought, wait, really? I just sat in. I thought you were like 24 on and say, no, no. Wow. I was 20. She was 19. I had a full head of hair. I had as much hair as I had ever had in my entire life. And, but we really didn't think we were old. I know. I got it. If you're balding, marry young. Okay.
Honestly, that is the more, you know She she was like I caught her on my way down and her way up. Power balance. Yeah, that was probably one of the greatest timing I've ever had in my entire life dad and the first Black Friday We ever got like a Nintendo one with the Walmart like it 2 in the morning Those two things are some of the greatest timing, You did not just relate your marriage to let me call mom, let's see what she has to say. Do you know how old I am right now? Ooh, 70? Okay.
What? I'm 70. But yeah, so they got married at 18 though, I mean that is, that's really, really young. He was really excited because Abby Choi's parents, they were very wealthy and Abby was also wealthy herself. She ended up having a net worth of... So I think you get the point. I hope that you like what you've heard so far and that you will go follow and subscribe. Subscribe to the YouTube channel, Virtual Couch YouTube channel, or subscribe and follow
wherever you listen to podcasts. Murder on the Couch, plenty more coming soon. Now taking us out, per usual, the wonderful, the talented, Aurora Florence with her song, It's Wonderful. Have a great day, everybody. Music.