Hey everybody, welcome to a very very special episode of the virtual couch. Just a couple of days ago I learned that a dear friend and colleague of mine Shauna Roberts suffered, an aneurysm swelling within the anterior communicating artery in the brain that has ruptured and this is from her daughter, Miraculously, she made it past emergency surgery where they amongst other things put in a coil stent to stop the bleeding and she's currently
intubated where her body at the hospital where her body is sedated and her neurosurgeons her daughter said have told us that it's a miracle that she made it to surgery to begin with which we are counting is one of the many miracles from God and they are continually optimistic in her recovery based on some very small signs but she said we have a long road ahead of us we
specifically are in a very fragile 10-day period where her care team is working to prevent further strokes and brain damage. At the time of writing this she hasn't woken up and we don't know when she will or what will happen when she does but her daughter said her family firmly believes that our Heavenly Father is in control and we're hopeful that when she does wake up that she will be on the road to recovery. She said my mom will need a lot of prayers and I
asked that everybody who knows and loves her to please join us in doing so. So I. So I spent several years working with and alongside Shauna. We consulted on cases together. We worked on cases together. We joked a ton together. We shared a office wall together. We heard angry clients and we would come out. I still remember one of the times where I had a very audibly expressive couple in my office and I come out of there and she just popped her head out and said, so that, that sounded like fun.
And I just, I laugh still when I think about that. But we did seminars together. We spoke at events together along with our other colleagues when I worked at Bridges Counseling Center, Shelly and Jamie. Shauna's hilarious and always full of energy. And when I think of her, I do, I smile, I laugh.
And I had Shauna on the virtual couch twice, so early on this episode today that I'm recording is episode number 379, and I had Shauna on episodes 11 to talk about anger and answer some questions, as well as episode 17, where we talked about boundaries. And we traded messages from time to time over the last few years after I ventured out on my own, and that we needed to get together and record again, and we just never did.
And so I truly hope and I pray that I'll have the opportunity to record with you again, Shauna. when I heard the news. I went and downloaded both episodes. So then today I want to share with you the episode where we talk about anger, but we, also answer a lot of questions and I was reminded not only of what a quick wit she is because you were going to hear that and I just loved our back and forth, our chemistry, but she is an extremely good clinician and you'll hear that as well.
At the time of this recording of this bonus episode, I'm not aware of a particular site or any kind of fund that's keeping people aware of any updates, but if one becomes available Then I will add it to my link tree link in the show notes of this episode as well as anywhere on my social media links And if you if you enjoy this episode, and if you want to pass along a message to Shauna and and her family,
Please do please send it to contact at Tony over Bay comm and I will be sure to send it to her. Okay, so Shauna there are many thousands of listeners that are thousands. I mean when we've recorded episode 11 I was looking at the download numbers and and it did make it to I don't know four or five six thousand,
downloads which back in that day was insane. I think when we first were recording together I was happy to have a few hundred people listen and I guarantee you that the day this one hits you're gonna have you know close to 10,000 people that are gonna be sending you some extra prayers and love and karma and healing all of it as they listen so I know that you'll feel it my friend and
and I just want you to know that that I do I see you so let's get to this this episode and I hope that you will absolutely enjoy, Shauna and I talking about anger, as well as just answering a lot of different questions of everything from why go to therapy and just relating some pretty funny stories. So let's get to that episode right now. Last week, when I decided to record an episode answering your questions, I was set to record at the end of my day after seeing clients.
And specifically, I had received a couple of questions about anger, where anger comes from and what to do with anger. And I really love talking about that. I've facilitated anger groups on anger management and I work with a lot of clients who really struggle with trying to control their anger.
And a colleague and friend, therapist Shana Roberts walked by in my office and we were briefly bouncing ideas off of each other on how to handle a particular issue that we often see when working with couples. And I asked Shana how late she was working and she was done right when I was planning on recording. So I asked her if she could sit in with me and answer some of these questions.
And I'm so glad that she did because I felt like it was more of a discussion for some of these answers on both of our experiences with the questions that were asked. And I just feel like it was so much more powerful. So I think I'm gonna look at maybe grabbing another therapist anytime I do these Q&As. And of course, it led to a couple of good stories as well as one that I honestly didn't know if I was ever gonna admit.
And I will just set the stage by telling you, I will talk about, or I will tell a story, the tale of Pierre Cintre. And again, my thanks to Shana for taking the time to answer your questions. I think you're gonna enjoy it. So now on to the Q&A and the curious tale of Pierre Cintre. Music. You look like you've had a tough session. Your eyes are red. Yes, very red. The smoke is killing me. Are you sure it's the smoke or was it something sad?
Did somebody talk about a puppy or something like that? Yes, I got very into my last session. Okay, I'm here with Shauna Roberts. Shauna is a colleague of mine. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and we practice together. That sounded a little bit odd. We play catch, right? I do, Tony. Practice together, right? But we are in the same building, office, work at Bridges Counseling Center in Roseville, California. So, I brought Shauna on because I
thought it'd be kind of fun. I've been talking about and I'm so grateful for all the questions that I get submitted. So, I have some great ones and I thought it would be fun. I'm going to have Shauna on a little later to talk about a specific therapy-related topic, right? Shauna Yes. Jared But so, today I thought she would be able to weigh in on some of the questions that we have, but I was kind of making a joke. Shauna has some
red eyes. She looks like she's been crying. Shauna Yeah, but it's not. It's due to all of the residual smoke from the horrible fires. Okay, because you moved up the hill, right? I did, so you didn't even ask me about that earlier. No. We actually had two fires, the McCourtney fire and the Lobos fire right up by us, which were a little bit too close for comfort. Okay.
I stayed home a couple days, husband stayed home a couple days, just keep an eye on everything, but they got those under control very quickly, unlike our friends in the valley, wine country, who lost, I mean, how many thousands of acres? And you have people you know that are affected by that. family members who were displaced by that. Very scary. I'm horrible.
Um, so were you, where you're up there is the smell of smoke thick? I mean, is that a, you know, it's interesting because we're up higher, not necessarily if we have a fire up there, then yes. But where it became really bad is I would come down the hill, come down 80 towards Roseville and you could just see it hanging in the air. Wow. Just so thick. And so my eyes are just killing me. It's better today, but that past couple of days have been
terrible. Okay. Well, I am grateful for you sticking around. I'm here. I'm ready to do this. Okay, so I want to jump in. First of all, do you have any specialties that you want to talk about? What do you want? I mean, what is your passion? What do you like the most about therapy? What are your ideal clients? Tony, that's a loaded question. You know me. I'm eclectic. I kind of work with everything. But recently in the past year, I have really developed this intense desire
to work with a couple specific populations. One, people who are living with problem gambling. So, Gambling addiction. Yeah, I am one of the you know, few contracted, Therapists through the state of California which pays for clients to have free therapy if they meet the criteria. It's a wonderful program.
And then of course my other passion which is very similar to the population. You work with is betrayal trauma and sex addiction. I whereas you tend to work more specifically with sex addiction, I have a a true passion for working with. Spouses, partners of those who are affected by SA. That, okay, that's what we're going to need to circle back around and talk about, right?
Because that's going to be, there's so much, yeah, there's a lot of focus on the person who is the addict, but not a lot on the spouse, right? We're getting there. We're getting there. We're bringing that kind of out of the shadows. Thank you, Patrick Karnes, into the light, and we're looking more at betrayal trauma. And that's its whole thing in and of itself. And I'm, you know, very excited about working with that population.
Okay, so we'll get there. And Sean and I worked on cases together. It's kind of nice. Sometimes I get to work with the guy, Shana works with the woman. Or vice versa, we've done it reverse. It's kind of, it's fun. Good. Okay, so first question, and this was got, kind of had me thinking about, I wanted to do a whole episode on questions. Here's the question, are you ready? What do I do to stop being so angry?
And they even put an exclamation part, so I think they were angry when they said this question. Although it wasn't in all caps, they weren't yelling it. Well thankfully, because we get that, right? Yeah, so. Why don't you take that and I'm gonna come up behind you. Okay, sounds good. This was the one I kind of prepared for, I'm not gonna lie.
So I went to a study. I heard, first of all, let me ask you, I feel like even a decade ago or more, in almost any therapy office, or we used to work at a clinic together, a non-profit together, and there would be punching bags in a lot of the offices, the Bozo the Clown ones. Bozo the Clown ones, or the referee guy. Oh yeah. Do you remember the referee guy? He had a name, and I don't remember his name, but. Had to be alliteration Ron the Ref, I don't know. Something, it was.
Was it? something like that, okay. So the theory there was, man, when you're angry, go punch the punching bag. And I remember even being in grad school in here, and sometimes I just had people scream into a pillow, or hit a pillow, or whatever it is, right? So the theory there being that when you get angry, you just gotta let off some steam. Right, you're gonna drain that negative energy. Yeah, so then you will be super happy, and peaceful, and all that kind of stuff.
Okay, so that now we know is not true. So, I looked up this study that I thought was pretty cool. It said back in 1999, people were presented with some sort of frustrating situation. For the sake of time, we'll just say, hey, it left them really angry. So, they were angry. Everybody in this study was angry. So, soon afterwards, some of the people were given an opportunity to punch a punching bag, whether it's Bows of the Clown, Referee Ron, we don't even know, for two minutes.
And that's a lot of punching. That's a lot of punching. It is kind of funny, right? When you think about it, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're there. You've got the punching bag. Two minutes though, if you really think about what that would entail, that is a long time. I have to tell you, I will not go too far on this tangent, but when I was in college, we had fraternity fight night. I was a freshman and so I was like, you know what? I've never been in a fight in my entire life. I'm in good shape.
So I'm doing it. And so I trained a little bit and then it was super hard training and exhausting and I got into spar one time and about 30 seconds in, I was just wiped out. So kind of backed out. So yeah, two minutes of punching. That's a long time. Two minutes, others, okay, so some people, one group did two minutes of punching, others did nothing at all.
So then a short time later, I think this is funny, everybody played a game against a fictional opponent and over the course of the game, participants had a chance to punish their opponent with blasts of noise. Okay, I love this. I know, these studies are always great, right? I would just be pushing the button just because I'm not person. I don't know, I have a little bit of test bias there. So the loudness of the noise and the length of the noise
have been used as measures of aggression. So they're trying to see then what happens with, you know, how aggressive people are, whether they punch the punching bag or whether they did nothing at all. So, the belief is, and there's this thing called catharsis, which is what you were talking about. If you drain every bit of anger out of your body, then you reach a state of catharsis and you're happy and chill and all those things.
So, the belief in catharsis would be that people would be less aggressive if they had a chance to punch the punching bag after getting angry than if they did to sit and do nothing at all. Instead. Probably see where this one's going. I did. The opposite result was obtained. So, the people who punched the punching bag were actually more aggressive than the people who did nothing. Interesting. Yeah, right? And I remember, boy, I've thought about this a lot.
And anytime I see a punching bag around still or I hear, you know, now I know that this has become just pop psychology lore, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah. So, here's what, punching a punching bag makes a connection for people between anger and aggression. So, it reinforces the link between being angry and then acting in an aggressive manner, which makes sense, right? It totally makes sense. So, these connections between emotional states and behavior are, I mean, that kind of then just
over time reinforced. Then as we get angry, then it's just going to say, it's going to trigger us to get even more angry. Yeah. Which just kind of, so the results of course say that it's better to be able to sit. And I know we both like to talk about mindfulness and meditation. And so, even just to be able to remove yourself, breathe, get focused, present, right? That kind of does it. Well, and one of the things about anger that I try to work with my clients on is,
is, you know, anger is there for a reason. You know, when you think about it, anger is our protection against the more tender emotions that we don't necessarily want to deal with or feel. Right? So, it's an opportunity for introspection. What is anger masking? What is anger keeping me from looking at, talking about, dealing with? And I have had some of the most powerful sessions when I will allow that anger to come up in session and then just ask the person to sit there with it.
What's going on, what's underneath it. Where are you feeling it? What's coming up? Tell me what you're thinking. There's a lot of techniques, down arrow technique we can use. But I find that that is the quicker way to move somebody through their anger and get to some answers. That's cool. What that just made me think about too is that how much do you feel like things like man brain come into play? How much is it that, because you're saying we kind of got to get them vulnerable.
So what's the risk when somebody's gonna be vulnerable? Especially guys. Yeah, they don't wanna go there. They don't, why? Well, who wants to? Yeah, it's not macho, rub a little dirt in it, Lone Ranger, John Wayne, all that. Why am I gonna do that? You know, you can ask, take a random sampling of men and ask them legitimately how many times they cried in their lifetimes. You will get those guys who can say, I can count on one hand, from the time I was a kid. It was Old Yeller, Air Bud, Hoosiers.
Hoosiers, Rudy. Rudy? Okay, there's four times right there, right? And maybe, maybe if they have kids when the kid made the entrance into the world. And that's a maybe.
That's a maybe, okay? Okay, I wanna get to these other questions too, but I have to tell you, so what just came to mind too, I went to a training once and they were kinda talking about when you get that whole fight or flight thing, anger, adrenaline going through your body, the guy who was doing the training said, okay, here's these things that the best way to eliminate it is to. Get to the top of a giant mountain with a completely open 360-degree view.
So, kind of not here in the area, right? And the thought behind that is, of course, that at that point now, you can recognize there are no threats or fear or whatever, so you can calm down. But then number two, which I thought was funny, because I don't know, this is embarrassing for me to admit, but then he was like, what I do often is, if I've got a client who's pretty angry in the room or in a couple setting, I'll say, hey, can you just run out to the waiting room?
I want you to grab the Time magazine and we just turn to page 15. And I think I'm taking notes and I'm like, oh, what's on page 15? I'm like, he's got some time, that's got something great on 15. Right, he circled it. Yeah, no, no, it doesn't matter what's on. Distraction. Yeah, yeah, distraction, right? Yeah, and I think again, and you're right, you brought up the gender thing, and I think you have to understand the person you're with and working with therapeutically.
But I honestly believe anger should not be feared. Anger is something we try to turn off or shove down, but it's an opportunity to learn something about yourself. Right? But you have to be willing to kind of go there, right? You have to be willing to understand what's my anger about. You can't, right? Yeah, no, that's perfect. Okay, so and then another fun fact on that training that I learned.
So he kind of said that once you're, all that stuff's gone, the chemicals, the fight or flight, adrenaline's in your body. You said it can take between 30 and 45 minutes for it to leave your system? It does. So I thought that was interesting, because a lot of times we'll get all fired up And then it's like. Still it's like, oh, I still feel angry or what's wrong with me. And that's normal. John and Julie Gottman, I think have done a beautiful job. If you're familiar with John
and Julie, right? Eons of work with this, and they call it being flooded, right? So when they're working with couples and somebody gets agitated, they'll actually have them wear pulse locks, right? You know, the little thing on your finger that measures your pulse and takes all your vitals. And as it starts to ping, that's telling you you're above a five on the Richter So you're flooded and your central nervous system is on fire.
And they always said it takes 30 to 45 minutes to return back to baseline. So that's something to keep in mind. You know, if you're fired up, that's not the time to have a conversation. That's not the time to problem solve. Get yourself back to baseline. Okay. I dig it. Okay. So are you ready for just random questions? Let's do it. Bring it on. I think there's one that I would love to start. I'll ask you because I think you will like this one. What should I do if my therapist upsets me?
I love that. That is such a great question. So before I answer that, have you had that happen to you? Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah. Well, okay. But I actually love that someone will let me know that because the worst part is every now and again, you get somebody that'll come back a couple of weeks later and say, Hey, I was angry at you. And it's like, man, if they wouldn't have told me that, you know? Yeah.
So, okay. So, same thing. in our careers, we probably would have avoided that. I've been fearful of that, right? Now, I welcome it. Okay. Yeah. It's an opportunity again, for growth, because in that moment, honestly, unless I've done something really egregious, right? It's about them. Something's being triggered, something's being activated, and it's an opportunity to go deeper. Yeah. Right. So, I love it when I can read on my client that I've stepped on a landmine, and they're upset,
and they're going to project that back on me. So, it's an opportunity to say, what's going on right now. I had a client and I love this one. So, she, I think I did drop a tiny bit into cliche mode, kind of in response to something that she put out there. And I was so grateful that she said. I could tell something was wrong. And I, you know, I did a good old, Hey, what's going on? I can tell your, your whole demeanor change, what's going on there. And she just said,
I kind of feel like you just dismissed me. And I feel like anytime I really put something out out there through my whole life, I just get dismissed. Oh, see? Yeah, right? Right there, yeah. But I think, bottom line, to answer that question specifically. Never ever be afraid to tell your therapist. Hey, I'm upset what you said upset me. I didn't like that, You're the consumer here. Speak up advocate for yourself if that's hard for you if you have problems with confrontation,
Send them an email. Yeah, sure jot them a little thing and you have to know that. We as therapists we that goes along with the territory. We're okay with that. We welcome that. Yeah, I always say I would do I always say you I want you to tell me I want you to tell me ask me questions on why I even asked the question I did. Or where am I going with that? Or why do I feel even qualified to
talk about the thing that I'm talking about? And I do know that I think in old-school therapy though, the therapist is supposed to bounce those right back. Why is that important to you? But I mean I do person-centered, client-centered, whatever you want to call it. So that's okay. I like that. Yeah, every once in a while with specific populations though, personality disorder
spectrum, then I do become the mirror. And I'm gonna put that right back because and I know therapeutically, clinically, it has whatever's happening for them isn't about me in that moment. Okay. So I think again it comes back to you kind of have to know your population, right? You know who's sitting across from you, but to the client themselves, never ever be afraid to bring up that you're upset or something was said ever.
Yeah, because if you do have a therapist that says, I can't believe you asked that question, you're done. You're done. That's it. Absolutely. Ask for a refund. Yeah, exactly. Of good that is when you're talking about when you were a new therapist you remember is it almost funny to look back on what your skill set was at that time oh my gosh I look back at some of the things that I did you're scrambling you know I can remember sitting there in front of a client going
I don't know. I'm going to help you with that. And then going home to my supervisor, you know, emailing them or pulling up every book that you have. And it's a tough road. You can only learn so much in school. Right? And then you get thrown into the fire and that's where all your education, comes. I have to. So I always think about this. I used to do, I went from this, Oh my gosh, I don't know what to say. Yeah. To then what would a real therapist say right now? Right.
I love it. Yeah. And then I, and then it was like having that confidence to then I'm going to, I'm going to say what the real therapist would say. And then finally becoming the real therapist. What a great journey right there. I love that. I think that's so true. And I think we all had that moment where we felt like, not that we're the be all and end all, not like that, but that we've arrived. We've honed our craft. We're confident in the things that we say and no
longer do you run home at night. I've got to find the answer to that question in some book. Now we just know. So are there, do you, anything coming? And maybe I'll tell you, I'm setting you up for, I'm curious, have you ever had those things where you do get a little bit offended? I mean, you can't say that out in the session, but do you ever kind of go, wow, okay, that one stung a little bit? Oh, for sure. Anything come to mind? We all do. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Can I tell you one that I get often?
Do you? So I do a lot of work with- Oh, this is the same one I'll get. Okay. Well, I do a lot of work with like single adults. So people who have been divorced and they're kind of getting back out there, right? So I, and I love working with that population because you're going to, I do a lot of this work with, okay, let's identify what is it that you want in a, in a companion now? You know, it's kind of the good old, the list.
And I've got those examples where somebody will say all these things that are important and then they run out to the cell phone store and there's a hot guy there and he's checking them out You know, like... Okay, I know he doesn't have all of those things, but that's, I feel it, right? I feel it. Yeah, but so I love what I'm working with and I can't tell you, I am not a tall man. Have you ever noticed this, Shauna? No. Haven't you? It's so shocking that you're saying that.
Yeah, yeah. So I maybe, if I'm, I don't know, shoes on, it's a good 5'8". That's a stretch. But I've sat with a couple of times where women have been, okay, so, you know, I really want him to be this or this, whatever. And you know what? He's got to be tall. I mean, he's got to be at least 5'10". I don't need some little midget, you know, or short, tiny, whatever. And I'm just like, I'm right here, right? And then best is when I get the double, where then it's like, and he's gotta have hair.
Oh my gosh, you know, I'm so tired of, you know, the guys with no hair. And I'm thinking, you're talking to a 5'8 bald man, right? Are you aware of that in any way? But they're not, you know, they're all in their own place. So I never do the whole, oh, how dare you? So okay, what comes to mind for you? You know, I think I have always been a working mom. I have never not worked, right? I'm just passionate about it, and I understand there's a big debate.
I've always been a better mom when I do work to my kids. But I can't tell you how many times that's come up. Well, you wouldn't understand that because, well, you're a queer woman or whatever. And so many times, and it's not meant maliciously, but they truly feel like you're never gonna understand what I go through as a stay-at-home mom. But that's opened up great conversation. We've really been able to go deep into, well, what does that mean? Why is that surfacing?
I think we all get offended at times. Absolutely, right? So I do have, there's one other one with the height that I don't think I've ever talked about either. So I once had a client, he was about 6'10", and he had a gorgeous head of hair too. I mean, just not fair at all, right? So it was when we used to work at the non-profit and I'm walking back and there's a pretty lengthy hallway,
right? So I'm building a little bit of rapport and I just say, hey, so man, what's the worst thing about being 6'10"? And he doesn't say anything. We're walking back, we sit in my office and I kind of say how, he probably didn't hear me, but I just made this joke about what's the worst thing about being 6'10". And he's like, no, no, I was trying to think about it. Nothing really. And then he's like, oh, I guess, you know, airplane seats.
It's like, okay. All right, thank you. Sure. That made me feel a whole lot better. Absolutely, yeah. And I was like, and you know what? I can stick my legs straight out on an airplane. That's right, I can. That's right, okay. All right, ready for another one? All right, let's go. Okay. Oh, okay, I like, I want, okay. Why therapy? Can't I just talk to my friends and get the same advice? That is a question that I have gotten.
Oh, so many times, not for my clients, but for people in my social circle, right? Why would I pay for therapy? You know, I could just go talk to my friend. So, look, let's get logical about it. Of course you can go to your friends and family to vent, right, and that's what it is. You're venting, you're sharing your frustrations.
Most of the time, you're going to get their take on that, that the answer is going to be based on their own thoughts, feelings, values, they're going to give you an opinion, right? Therapy has nothing to do. With an opinion. Now, every once in a while, we will weigh in with a clinical opinion. Yeah. No, I like this. Right? But that's not our job. We are not there to offer up our opinion about or offer advice.
That's, yes. No advice. So, that's something to keep in mind. If you're in a therapy session and you feel like your therapist is giving you advice, again, I'd say you need to shop for a different therapist. Okay. We've never talked about this and that is exactly what I would have said, too. And I even I even think that there's a couple of therapists that I know that I feel like they are good at telling people what they need to do. You know?
So I had in, when I was in grad school, my sensei, Darlene Davis, who I'm gonna have on the podcast soon. Do you know Darlene? Super wonderful. Yeah. Isn't that Shelly's? Old sensei? I don't know. Good question. Darlene Davis. Anyway, I know Darlene's name. Never mind. So she did this thing that I thought, and I'm not huge on the experiential stuff where it's like we're gonna get up and we're gonna whatever, do something in the room. Well, no, Virginia Satir, you're not gonna family of skull?
No, I'm kind of tough with that, but here's one she did that I loved. She just said, so a lot of people think, and this goes back to the people that say, why can't I talk to my friends, that if they go to therapy, it's like. If they're sitting on one side of the wall, one side of the room, and then the therapist is on the other and the therapist is just like, hey, all right, come here, go left, go right, watch out for that, duck under that, and you're here.
I know, right? And she said, nope, and then she did the thing where she walks over and she gets beside the person and then she just says, okay, where are we trying to get to? And the guy's like, over there. She's like, okay, what's in front of us? It's this desk. And it's like, well, what do you think about desks? I don't know. I was attacked in a desk factory as a child, so this is tough for me, you know? Right? How cool is that?
Tony, this is so interesting because one of the things, I never heard another therapist say that because my kind of schtick a lot to clients, especially when there's trauma or we're going through something real difficult, I'll say, you know, I'm here to walk beside you. That's my job. I am not here to remove the blocks for you. I'm not here to steer you around the bumps in the road. We're gonna walk it together.
Tell me what this brings up for you. We're gonna explore every nook and cranny together, but it's your journey. I'm just here to facilitate and walk beside you. So I love that she says that. I'm gonna have to steal that because that's brilliant. Yeah, you gotta give me credit and Darlene credit. Darlene, you're amazing. Tony, you know what I think. Sure, I almost feel like this is the moment where we drop the mic and we leave.
I mean, that was kind of like deep, right? Yeah. OK, you said Satir, right? Love Virginia Satir. I probably studied about her for my licensing exam. But I'm drawing a blank. But here, can I tell you what that brought up for me? Okay. And this is a story that I wanted to get to at some point. I will try to make it somewhat quick. So, when I, so I did my practicum work at the Child Abuse Prevention Council of California.
Got it. So, and they sent me to a ton of trainings and a ton of, so I was doing work with kids. Right. And I think I've talked on other podcasts. That wasn't my sweet spot, you know, and there are people that love it and are passionate about it and I'm so grateful for that. Good training. Yeah, it is great training. And so, but I went to all these different trainings and And they used to talk a lot about Santre, right?
So I realize I'm not paying a whole lot of attention when they're talking about that. So I work up this narrative where it's like, okay, I bet it's, it sounds French. So it's gotta be this guy, I'm guessing maybe like Pierre Santre. And what does he do? And what's his model? And I'm like, man, I gotta look this up, right? So then finally, I think- Are you kidding me right now? No, I know, right? And so I even, I think I even have it written on here somewhere, Pierre Santre.
I've been dying to talk. this the tale of Pierre Cintre. So what I learned, Shauna, was there is no Pierre Cintre, nor is Is there a Jean-Michel Cintre? Nope. Or a Jean-Luc Cintre? Nope. Word is sand. And what do we know about sand tray now, Tony? So now we know that that's where we get to play with toys in the sand tray. And then the therapist gets to interpret that when the guy puts the army man by the tiger. That he has some like childhood trauma. You got it.
Right. Beautiful. Yeah. So can we put to rest Mr. Pierre Sand Tray? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Wow. That's a good one, Tony. Thank you. Wow. So we're going to pretend that you actually didn't ever study Virginia Satir. We're going to just gloss. And I want to edit that out because, you know, she's kind of like, you know, one of the masters. It's a big deal. Big deal, big deal. And honestly, family sculpting, you know.
Oh yeah, sculptures, clay, I get it, the whole thing. So the other thing that I'm thinking, I have to tell you this, okay, so you know how when you're in school too, you're supposed to go get your own therapy? Oh yeah, oh gosh. So I was trying to at first be lazy about it, so I wanted to find somebody around my house. And so I forget what directory I went into, plugged in my zip code, and somebody was just a couple miles away, and it turns out that they were working out of their home.
So I go there, and I'm like gonna take the tour, which is fine, and so I just kind of had this whole sand tray thing. Fresh in your mind. Yeah, right, and I knew now, a sand tray. So they're showing me, they're walking me back and they kind of show me one room, and then there's this cat that kind of runs out of the room and there's a litter box there. So I, oh, I laughed at myself so hard, I'm like, oh, combo sand tray and litter box. It's perfect. Right?
For the therapist that works out of their home. Right, and so every now and again, you got a kid in there and he's like, hey, what's this rock? You know, or whatever. She's like, oh, let me get that. Right, yeah, so. No, no, don't put that in your mouth. Oh my gosh, it's one of your favorites. Yeah, maybe I'm gonna wanna edit that part. Yeah, it's kinda funny though. I think it's better. How long, we wanna take another one? Yeah, let's do another one.
Let's do one more, this is fun. So we just did, can't, okay, talk to my friends, get the same advice. Okay, there's one. Oh, here we go, this is good. What if there are topics I don't wanna talk about or I'm not ready to share? Okay, this is also a very important one. I think first and foremost. Your therapist is not there to interrogate you, right? You know, I think there's this fear that people are going to sit on that couch and they're going to be held captive by this person
who's going to dig and dig and dig. Not at all. You know, we're there to meet the client where they're at, wherever that is, right? And our job is to pick up on either those conscious or unconscious processes, clues, things that are coming up and get the client to explore them. We are not there to push our agenda. Yeah. Right. At all. Yeah. And I will say I am sure that there are some therapists out there that do that. And that is a really quick way to lose a client.
It is. And I will I'd love that. And I will say I do now kind of in that first session where you're talking about confidentiality and all that kind of good stuff. I do try to throw a little something in there that I know that this isn't natural, I guess, to come in and talk to a strikingly handsome, tall, bald guy, right? And unload all of your problems. I know that's not maybe natural.
But the sooner that you can be open and vulnerable, the better because I think maybe we've all had therapists or we've had these situations where you're six, seven, eight sessions in and somebody's saying, Hey, by the way, did I tell you that I'm a serial killer? You're like, Oh, that would have been nice to know early on.
Right at the beginning. Exactly. Yeah. You know, and I've got stories that I don't for the sake of confidentiality, but I mean, I just, I had a couple of session a little while ago where there was a pretty big big reveal with about 15 minutes left that would have changed the entire session. And I don't say, are you kidding me? Why didn't you let that? Because I know some people aren't quite ready, right? They aren't.
And it's so funny. This exactly happened to me today. My second client, I think, you know you're dancing around an issue. You know there's something there and you don't want to push too hard because you want it to kind of come out.
And to me, it's a sign that we're doing really good work when a client will say to you, you know, there's this thing that I've not wanted to share or talk about, but I'm feeling so safe now, or I feel like this is, you and I are exploring together in a really safe way, and now I'm gonna tell you the thing.
Right? Yeah, you do have to earn that. You do have to earn that at times too, because even we talked about, Sean and I are a part of a pretty cool training going on right now, and today, some of the stuff that we talked about, shout out to Dr. Kevin Skinner, right? Very great. So one of the things he talked about was even that part of, if somebody has not had anybody that they can trust, that's gonna be hard for them to walk right in and then again,
trust a strikingly handsome bald man, right? Absolutely, right? Because that's gonna work. Well, so let's, on that, I think we can't end this unless we also then maybe talk about counter-transference just a little bit, right? Because I think oftentimes a therapist will get triggered by something that the client is talking about. Because it was their own experience. I mean, we can come up with a dozen different examples for that.
So I think it's important that the client pay attention to they feel like. The therapist is starting to steer them, right, in a particular direction of trying to pigeonhole them into this is how you feel.
I think, yeah, good examples like if a, let's say a therapist, you know, had grown up and there was alcohol abuse or something like that in their family and then you've got a client in here who's they're kind of minimizing it or that's not what they're here to talk about and they maybe say, just in passing, yeah, sure, we get drunk, we fight, but you know, and the therapist might say, well, where are the kids? Well, they're in the rooms. They aren't hearing anything, right? Well.
Well, if that therapist had a situation where growing up, they remember these drunken arguments and stuff, all of a sudden, they're like, no, no, no, we need to keep talking about this. We're gonna talk about that, right? And then you can, I think, I've heard many stories where the therapist can get a little bit pushy with, we are going to, you're avoiding talking about this, right? Yeah, you don't understand, right? This is important, yeah.
So I think the concept of counter-transference is something that isn't gonna happen all the time, and a really good therapist is gonna manage that. They're gonna seek supervision. If they get triggered in a session, they're gonna talk about it. I think I've talked to you about times. All of the therapists here have talked about times where countertransference has come up.
It's normal, but if you are feeling that as a client, don't be afraid to say, I kind of feel like you're making this about you. Or I feel like you're taking this in a direction that I'm not comfortable with. Yeah, saying I don't necessarily feel like this is. Right, this isn't what I'm here to talk about. or that's not my experience at all, you know? So I think that's an important thing to bring up to people.
Yeah, that's good. You mentioned, this is where I'm going on my train of thought, but at one point a few minutes ago, you said something about coming in and sitting on the couch. Do you have anybody lay down? Gosh, I have people who lay down all the time. Do you really? Well, you have pillows. I'm holding one right now, they're comfortable. I will have people kind of curl up, and they'll hold on to that.
Then there's people who just want to stretch out, lay on their back, throw their feet up, but that's why we have the couch, you know, whatever. I just love, though, that there's that stereotype. So, I mean, I love when I get somebody, a rookie into therapy, and sometimes they will say, do I lay down? Do I lay down? Oh, I get it all the time. Am I supposed to lay down?
No, no, no, do whatever. And then when they get comfortable, and they come in, and I even have a blanket, You know, if people, if it's cold or whatever, they throw the blanket on, get comfy. To me, that says, you know what, we're doing our job. We've created that safe space, we've created that nice environment for the client to come in and feel, let their guard down, where they can lay down. That's a very vulnerable position. Yeah, it kind of is.
I had a client once who would just stare up at the ceiling and talk, and that was, it was great. But so there was once where I thought, man, I've kind of got a headache, and I've got a little, I've got ibuprofen in my bag. So I thought, I wonder if I can kind of sneak one of these things out, you know? And so. Did you do it successfully? Maybe. Just kind of stuck my hand over slowly to see, you know, if the guy was gonna look over. Yeah.
Yeah, and I got it. Yeah, he never even knew. Well, and I think the other thing to remember too is, well, we've all had our own individual therapy. It's part of our training. And I know what that's like to sit across from someone who's kind of staring at you intently, even though it's with compassion and empathy. It's a little uncomfortable. And so I think for some people, laying down where they don't have to look right at you. No, that's true.
It kind of feels good. Yeah. That made me think of, I have to give a shout out to Sean Davis, who was my sensei. He's a good guy. Dr. Davis, amazing. And he told of a situation once where he was dealing with a teen boy. Teen boy was obviously very uncomfortable about coming to therapy. And the kid wanted to lay down on the couch, kick their feet up. And so there was another couch in the room. And Sean just mimicked that. Just mimicked it. Kind of met the kid where he was at.
Tossed his feet up too, kind of put his hands up above his head, and they just kind of talked, and I thought, that's a great therapist. And you can do that. Okay, so of course now I'm gonna sound like, oh yeah? Well let me. Well let me one up you. Right, exactly, but I love that. I mean, it's funny, I'm wearing slip-on shoes today because I have a client today that we take our shoes off, and that's just kind of what we do.
And then I love, with teens in particular, with the curvature of that couch and this chair, where sometimes I do say, all right, We're just gonna slide back and we're just gonna look up and whatever it is to make them feel comfortable. Yeah. You've gotta do whatever you need to do as a therapist within boundaries. Sure, yeah, yeah. Okay, well I just thought about that too. Have you ever seen my snack cabinet? I have seen, Tony, I have broken into your snack cabinet. How dare you?
I'm just gonna own it. No, I'm honored. You know what? We all know who has the good stuff around here. It is full right now. I know it is. It is full, yeah. It kind of freaks me out because I'm like, Tony has chocolate. Oh, I went Halloween candy shopping is what I did, but I've already eaten the whole thing of Reese's and Kit Kats. Oh good, well then I'm safe, so fine, whatever. I'll probably get some more tomorrow. Okay, do you wanna do one more? Let's do one more, let's end it strong.
Okay, all right, this is a good one. Okay, will my therapist judge me? Oh, such another great question. Don't you think that's a common misconception that your therapist is, whether they're silently, overtly or covertly going to pass judgment on you? I think that is so true, but again, right? If your therapist is judging you, you probably need a new therapist. Our job is not to pass judgment, and here's the thing I tell all my clients.
There is nothing 10 years into this that you could tell me that I haven't heard or seen. Okay, I say the same thing all the time, right? All the time, and it's kind of sad, right? Because we've become a little jaded. We have heard things that I think most people can't even wrap their brain around. Yeah, oh, some of the stuff we were talking about in our training today. Totally. But we won't go there. You're right. And so I do tell people, far be it for me to pass judgment on you.
That's not my job, right? My job is to walk beside you and we're gonna figure all of this out. So I say this cheesy thing where I say, I want, if I had a device that I had right here beside me and it was my holy crap-o-meter, and so when they, oh, spit tape, right? Oh, that'd be good. So I'm saying this thing, I don't think you can even get it to go to one.
So whatever you're gonna tell me right now, I wanna know and it's data and that's what I need to work with and all those sort of things, right? Yeah, but again, I really honor, again, the client, you can come in and tell you some of the most horrific, scary things that have happened to them, right? Embarrassing to some, right? Traumatizing. And I think it takes a lot and again, you talked about our early...
Days of our career I can remember thinking as someone was telling me the most awful story that I ever heard in my life Right. Yeah, I kept thinking is my face. Okay. Am I not, you know, am I not? Oh, right You know, am I showing horror? Am I yeah You're keeping that nice flat kind of affect or am I projecting the right amount of empathy and now of course
It just comes now to us. But right I mean in the beginning didn't you think a I'm gonna start crying B, my jaw is going to drop and my eyes are going to bug out. You're going to say, oh my gosh, I can't believe that happened to you. Yeah, exactly. It's tough. It's tough. You made me remember, do you remember your very first client ever? I can remember my very first client. Okay, you want to go first? No, you go. Okay, so mine was, I was working at this place, non-profit. I wasn't getting paid.
I'm a brand new therapist. I get this, and of course I want to protect it. I mean, it's been over a decade, but I'll give it in generalities. It was a single dad and the wife was not around because of some things that she had done. And he's got, I think, three teenagers at the time. And he's just talking about all the stuff they're doing with it's like just crazy, horrible activities. And he's basically saying, what do I
do? And I'm thinking, Oh, I don't even know. I don't know. But the funny part was at one point, he's like, he said something like, and we they're stealing cable, you know, and I remember I kind you know, they were like splicing it from a neighbor or whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember going off on this little thought thing where I'm like, huh, so if they get caught doing that, is that a bad thing? Or is that in your brain? Yeah. And I'm like, wait, come back.
Okay, I'm back. Right? No, I, we all do our time. Most of us in the trenches right out of grad school, right? You get kind of really thrown into some, some tough places. I too worked at a couple nonprofits and I would say a very tough population to work with. So my first client out out of the gate was a doozy. I mean, it was trauma and, again, just kind of this. Unfolding of this horrific story. And I'm sitting here thinking.
Help. Where's my supervisor? Oh, yeah. Watching. Yeah, yeah. I need help. Yeah. But then but then something clicks, because I think all of us who are in this profession, who have done this profession for as long as we have, there's something in us that clicks. Yep. Or it's an art form. I don't know. It's what we're supposed to be doing. And that empathy and that compassion kind of just comes to the surface and we learn to be right there with the client in the moment.
Okay, I was going to say that's the thing that I think that was when it clicked for me was when it wasn't. I mean, you know, we're all human, but it was when when I'm in a session, they feel like they're 10 minutes, not 50 minutes. You're locked in, you're present, you're not thinking about what's for lunch or what, you know, and because I, you know, I think shortly after my first client where that was an experience.
I remember at one point having a guy tell me some things and I was kind of stuck on what do I say about this? And I didn't stay with him, and then he throws out a, I don't know, do you think that's a good thing? And I just blurt out, yeah, and he's like, seriously? And I had to quickly go, well, I don't know, go hang on. Tell him, yeah, right, let's go over that again. Like, yeah, right, and I'm going, oh, you know what, I can't, yeah.
No, but that is, it's scary, and again, I like that you said we are all human, and there's gonna be times when we have problems staying with the client, but most of the time, this far into the game now, that's where we are really proficient. Yeah, I think so. We're able to really stay there. there, right? Even if your stomach's growling a little bit or you're thinking about, what am I going to do when I get home? We still have that ability to be right there. I don't think it's
been years since I've had that experience where I'm like, what did they just say? Because you're thinking, what am I going to say next? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that kind of leaves. Okay, So I will tell you when you just had a rumbling stomach. So I do think I used to always think about it would be fun to do this like kids book called The Gassy Therapist. The Gassy Therapist. Right? Because every now and again, you know. We're human. Yeah, and that's a rough time, right?
Do not eat tacos before your afternoon friends. Fair point. If you look in my thing there, I've got some dried fruit. Oh! Okay. Never eat more than four dried prunes. Ever. Nope. Because then you're going to make a quick exit. Yeah. I mean, here it is, folks. Real confessions of real therapists. Yeah. So I recorded one a couple of weeks ago on this race I ran, this 100K, and one of the things that I didn't talk about after that I thought was funny to me was, so here's one that is fun.
So when I run one of these super long races, anything over 50 miles or whatever, I'll lose a lot of weight in fluid during the race. Like this last one, I lost nine pounds, right, on the race. So then when you're done with the race, you're gonna hydrate like a champ, and then your body's gonna say, hey, this idiot might go do that again. Let's hang on to everything he gives us for the next couple of days. So then I actually ended up gaining that nine plus an additional eight.
So there was like this 17 pound swing, right? So then I come into therapy on Monday and I'm fine. I'm like, I'm good. I'm sore, but I'm good. Well, this is like to a T. By Tuesday, then the body goes, all right, we're good. He's not gonna do it again. Let's pee every 10 minutes. So imagine that in sessions, right? You're like tapping your toe. Cause I am not, have you ever like- I've excused myself. Super embarrassing. I am so sorry. I'm gonna have to go.
Yeah, that's not epic. Or I've had colleagues who have gotten sick, thrown up in the middle of a session. You know, they're a hardcore man. They're gonna stay in the pit, and then they're like, and you're gonna have to excuse me. That's pretty funny. Again, we are human, right? Yes, exactly. All right, Sean Roberts, what a pleasure. It was fun, right?
It was so fun. Thank you for having me on. Okay, so yeah, so we're gonna have you on to talk about maybe the trauma piece, or trail trauma, or something like that. You want to maybe do a little bit of trail trauma? Yeah, so do that. Or any other population. You know me, I'm kind of eclectic.
When I first thought of the idea of the podcast, I mean, Shauna does a lot with personality disorders and especially there's a big one called borderline personality disorder where I think therapists, when we're talking amongst each other, it's like, man, you never wanna have more than one borderline. And I mean, what's the most you've ever juggled at one time? Eight, nine, yeah, it's a lot. And I don't do that anymore.
I mean, I've learned, but there's a lot of misinformation about borderline out there and I would love to come in and maybe even do Q&A about borderline personality or just talk about it in general terms. Oh, that's good. Okay, so we'll do that. So thanks for coming in. Absolutely, thank you. And we will talk again soon. Sounds great. And I will see you next time on Awesome. Music.