Pick Me Behaviors, Emotional Immaturity, and the Cost of Not Knowing Yourself: Is True Honesty in Relationships Possible? Tony and Mackie Overbay Live QA

What if he's tripped over that cord? Oh, I worried about tripping over that cord. , the whole night. Did you even do it? Do I what? Did you go live? Yeah. Oh. Are we not live now? We're okay. I hope we are. There we are. Oh my foot. There we

are. Yeah. Get that foot out there. Geez, I should have put socks on, although I don't think this is the time to talk about this, but man stuff. I hear about people wanting people to send them things about their feet. That's a thing. There's someone I can tell you about that was like that. And I'll tell you one day. Okay. Someday. I mean as a, you can probably guess.

I don't know if I could but I will tell you the licensed marriage family therapist in me, it is not an uncommon thing that I have people who bring that up. , we could talk about that . Okay, so I gotta stay in the frame here as well. Hey, everybody. Yeah. You're far, far away. Far far away. water. What do you think? I dunno, I'm just asking. No, It could have been like energy drink and stuff right? But it is two propels, one berry water, berry water, kiwi strawberry.

One berry shaken, not stirred with pebble ice. Gotcha. Drink a choice. Mackey McKinley Mackey over bay.

Thank you for joining me for this live question and answer. Where, uh, licensed marriage and family therapist licensed cosmetologist and aesthetician. Or we're here to answer your relationship questions.

I'm, I really enjoy talking about narcissistic traits and tendencies, behaviors, emotional maturity. We can talk about relationships, although , I'm not your therapist. I have to say that this is it's your little disclaimer. Yeah. This is this is just, just a guy. Just, just some thoughts. Knows some things. Who knows some things. 20 years as a licensed marriage and family therapist has taught me a thing or two. About a thing or two, um, a thing or two. Great. Yeah, that's like an old man line.

I'm realizing I'm doing more and more of those old man lines than ever before. Here's our warmup topic. Well, people come on and you can ask anything at all. Please, people ask your questions and we are gonna answer 'em. I'm determined to answer your questions. We're talking right here, not your therapist but a guy giving you advice who happens to be a therapist, but I learned this is where I'm gonna show my age.

Mackey do you know what a pick me girl is? Yes. Okay. Like how does that show your age? Because I'm just learning about it. Oh yeah. I thought you were saying you knew that from back in your day. Like, oh no, there was no such thing. You're outta your time. So I wanna put this pieces together. So first of all, tell me what that is Not, and I'm not trying to like, nuh.

Okay, so what is that a pick Me girl is someone that basically just every single thing they do or say is to get attention on them. . Okay. I want to tie di. It. Does it have to be ditzy or what is it? Brilliant? It doesn't have to be. Yeah, but it's, yeah. Usually the vi that they play dumb kind of, yes, they do that okay. Could there be a just a girl? Could there be a pick me guy? Yes. Is that a thing? Yes. Are they called anything different? I don't know.

I never, I feel like people don't really say that, but technically speaking, sure. Okay, so here's the thing. Long pick me. , a long time ago, I worked with a woman she was going through relationship after relationship, and she said, and I will never forget this. She said, I'm really good at getting guys to like me. And she said, if I date a cowboy guy, then I've got the. Boots and the hat and I've got to go to, there's a parks and rec episode about this. Is it really? Mm-hmm. Okay. What is it?

You know, Anne? Yeah. She does that. She dates like she's dating a ton of guys. Okay. And she literally dresses as a cowgirl. Dresses like, gets pink in her hair, gets yeah, that's not good. All these things. No, no. And that's the whole point of the episode.

Okay. But I think it's fascinating though because here's where it comes into. My world in the therapy world. So I'm trying to help people find out who they are. We want them to have a strong sense of self. And how do you find out who you are? You have to try things. You have to go through experiences. But if you think that the whole goal of the game is just to get the other person, then I have people that basically say, but no, that is who I am. I am very good at this.

So they're trying to come in and say that that is who they are. Who am I to change this person? But yet they're in seeing me as a therapist saying, why do I keep losing relationships? And I might be overstating this or overgeneralizing, but when the person doesn't know who they are, then they're saying, okay, I can figure out how I can show up so that you think I'm this person that you like. And it's like, how long can you fake that? How long can you fake it?

Yeah. Because if this person is, and they're done there. Okay. Have you, I was gonna ask well, I feel like when I was younger, 17, 18, 19, yeah. It totally was. How do I change myself? Oh, somebody said, can I ask a question? Person dating? Please do ask a question. Yeah, just comment on it. . But a hundred percent. . And we've talked about this before where it's like if somebody said, have you seen this movie? . The answer would just be, yeah, duh. Like, of course.

Or Do you like this kinda music? Yeah. Duh. When it's no, I haven't, no. Okay. But I don't want you to think I'm not good enough or not whatever. . And now if I haven't seen something, I just go, no, no. And then we went and we all saw the movie Sinners, which has like great. Reviews, great reviews, and I said, I don't get it. It, I know we came outta there. I was very front about it and we're, that's, I still don't get it. And I loved it. I really did. I thought it was really good. I liked it.

Yeah. I just didn't, I really, really liked it. I don't get the, the hype, being honest. But that's even a good example . That is a movie , is it's a muse. It's something that I see and I, and it makes me think things and feel things and wonder things. Mm-hmm. And you're doing the same thing I would imagine. And so then our experiences don't have to be the same. Yeah. But I like that we're still friends. Yeah. We're. Practically related, right. Practically. Okay. Let's get your questions.

What do we got? , I think we have half of the questions so far. Okay. This is not good TV with us Bosa staring down. Oh, okay. Do you wanna I'll try to pull 'em up on here too, but what do you got? I have half a question. Oh, okay. Well, gimme the half and I can give half an answer. I'm therapy patient. Okay. Do you hear that though? That's a dad joke. Did you already said No? I tune out your dad jokes at this point. Okay. How dare you? Number one?

But I said gimme half the question and I'll give him half an answer. Oh, funny. That's not bad. . Okay.

I'm a therapy patient, borderline personality disorder, depression and anxiety. I'm feeling like. The BPD is the most painful is DBT and medication the only hope? Oh, that's a great question. We got a lot of acronyms flying around there, ? BPD is is borderline personality disorder. Okay? And a lot of times people get BPD they think that's bipolar because there's some similar initials in there. Big difference bipolar versus borderline personality disorder.

Borderline personality disorder is in this cluster of personality disorders that features such hits as narcissism. Histrionic Antisocial. Borderline. What's histrionic? Histrionic. It's interesting. Never heard that in my life. Well, when I was studying for , my licensing exam histrionic, they would always give a sample question that was more about somebody. That was, I gotta not get the shadow band thing. What do people say? Segs. Around, overly flirtatious.

And it involves trying to convince someone to join you in an intimate relationship in order to get your needs met. So now the siren song of the borderline is, I hate you, don't leave me. It's like this dramatic push and pull. And then you've got the narcissist that is, grandiose, malicious, lack, empathy. But all these are in this personality disorder cluster.

And the most fascinating thing, this is why I think this will play into this question, the most fascinating thing about a personality disorder is it is saying that this is who you are. This is your personality. So even if you , if you go to therapy and somebody says, okay, here's how you, here's normal. I'll air quote that. But then if you are then saying, okay, just it guy kinda goes back to the pick me thing we were talking about. Tell me what I need to do. Tell me how I need to.

Act so that I will be viewed as normal in this relationship or in this job. But if at your core, at your character you don't really understand, I don't even know why I'm doing this. 'cause to me, I don't think that I'm doing anything that wrong. It's like, you guys all don't get it, but okay, fine. Tell me. Does that make sense? I think so, yeah. So it's a trip because it is your core personality now disorder sounds a little, little mean. Well, yeah. Then that makes it seem.

Rude. I mean it's, I can be offended. So then their question is medication and DBT and DBT is a type of therapy called dialectical behavioral therapy. And it is. And now, and I wanna be so honest, the types of therapy modalities that I know, I know well, like acceptance and commitment therapy. I can do cognitive behavioral therapy. There's some others, in the couple's world, I like emotionally focused therapy. I like differentiation.

But dialectical behavioral therapy or DBT, I don't know enough about. But do you know what it's like closest? Yeah. So it has like a, a mindfulness component, but also a behavioral component. So I know that when I've over generalized it for somebody before that it's saying, Hey, we're really not gonna go with your your manipulation, your exaggeration, your grandiosity, those sort of things. That's the part where it's so can I just get you to come back to this present moment?

And then trust me, let me teach you , the correct way to behave in this situation. But then the hope is that as you learn that you're trying to integrate it internally to change your character or who you are. I do have a document that I think would be. Lemme see if I can find it. Okay. 'cause I think it would be good to just throw this out there of DBT.

Okay. Yeah. So we've got skill, so DBT it combines cognitive behavioral therapy with mindfulness practices and emphasizes a balance between acceptance and change. I'm a big fan of acceptance and commitment therapy, and that's just saying, Hey, right now, accept the fact that this is how you're thinking, this is how you're feeling. But you also have a component of that that's saying, and it's not really working well in your relationships.

So that's a big part of, that's hard for somebody that is saying but you guys are all wrong. And I think I'm right. But then that mindfulness practice, it does bring you back into this presence. And with some acceptance. And then what do we have to do to change? So it has training and mindfulness distress tolerance. Trying to deal with your discomfort, emotional regulation, and then basically the old Dr. Phil adage of, and how's that working for you?

The way that you're showing up in your relationships. But DBT usually it's pretty intensive. I've had a couple of clients that have gone to, it's not necessarily inpatient treatment, but it but it's a pretty rigid outpatient treatment where you do certain things every day and you're logging skills . So I don't look at that. I'm saying I don't know enough about DBT, but it's definitely something to look into. So, back to their question. Yeah. Yeah. DBT is considered and medication.

So Medication, yeah, absolutely. 'cause The way you're interacting with others causes you a great deal of anxiety, and then when you have anxiety, your heart rate elevates, your amygdala gets hijacked, and then you end up being very reactionary and then all of a sudden it's like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. But then when you're angry and you're flooded, you're being really mean.

Then you know you're gonna try to maybe work on your anxiety, or you might need an antidepressant that's gonna flatten out your affect a little bit. And it's that thing so you can access those tools that you need. But, I did, we get the same part. So is that the only hope? Oh, great point. So I work a lot with the world of, I won't say personality disorders 'cause this is for anybody new. My, my big platform. Go check out my podcast. Waking up to narcissism, for example.

And the number of people, or percentage of people that would be actually diagnosed as narcissistic personality disorder or maybe even borderline personality disorder is. It's pretty, it's relatively small, depending on the study you look at two to five, 6%. I typically say that if you are actually a diagnosed narcissist, you're not going to therapy. So the person here that's saying Hey, I'm diagnosed as borderline and so I'm in therapy and I'm just. Curious what will help.

And again, this is why I'm not your therapist, but to me I always say that if you're asking the questions and you're tuning into a therapist and trying to find out answers and you're going to therapy, then I don't, I would guess that it's most likely not a personality disorder, but it's more extreme emotional immaturity. And that's what I kind of hang my hat on, that the number of people that have personality disorders is relatively small for how much we throw it around.

I mean, we go back to, oh, everybody's ex was narcissistic, or everybody's ex-girlfriend was borderline, or that sort of thing. Yeah. And that one's an easy one just to throw that diagnosis. And what's even worse about that is if somebody in the relationship says, Hey, I think you have borderline personality disorder, number one, the answers are gonna show immaturity. No, I don't. You do. Or, you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah. But then it's unfair because now that person's like, oh my gosh, do I have borderline Now I gotta go figure out, do I? I'm gonna go see a therapist and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, read books about it. So if you're the person that took that advice or took that suggestion or that criticism and now you're trying to figure it out, I would guess it's more along the lines of you're probably more on the emotional immature category and not a personality disorder. So there's lots of hope.

I think there's a lot of hope. 'cause there's lots of things to be done. Yeah. and there's two thoughts on this. I'd love to, for you to jump in at any point. So in one, yeah. You're going down you're getting treatment for DBT and you're taking medication. And if you feel like you are starting to change and the other person is saying, yeah, I don't know still that, that might be an answer, right?

There is, that is can that person just easily dismiss you with a Yeah, I think you're still the same. Mm-hmm. , learn about differentiation, where that is. Ultimately, you are the one who knows you best. And I would love to, I'd love to help get my clients this place where they have this 90% solid, maybe 10% flexible sense of self.

So if you know who you are and you're, and you know that the way you're thinking and feeling is actually it's okay, but that other person has a problem with it, maybe that's the additional work to bring to your therapist of saying it really is saying, am I, I was gonna say, am I crazy? That's a loaded word, but. This is what's showing up in my relationship and you know, is the other person actually being pretty reactionary? Are they being pretty emotionally immature?

Are they engaging in all or nothing? Black or white thinking? I don't know, are they, I dunno, either. Well, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Other questions? Or do they give us more? This one? No, but this one, this one's interesting. If you are always treating people, how do you turn it off when meeting new people? Oh, you don't, you don't, you're just diagnosing people other in your head. Yeah, totally. I, I, I think about this all the time.

And I talk to other people that have in their professions the easiest one to go to is for some reason I end up working with a fair amount of dentists. And I say, are you always looking at people's teeth? They're saying, yeah, of course I am. I don't think it's a bad thing though. 'cause the turning it off makes to me it's this assumption that it's just, there's so much to carry with me. Mm-hmm. But I love what I do. So I am trying to or read people constantly.

Like right now, is Mackey so bored? I'm kidding. Excuse me. But no, it's a great question though. But I don't, I don't turn it off, but , I don't think that it has me then judging people and they're saying, you know, I had a rough day. And I'm like, tell me about your mom. Yeah, it's not like that, but it's like your brain is still. Sure. Running. Yeah.

Which, which, and I wanna answer all the questions today, but I just did a podcast that I've been working on for so long and it's about , what emotional immaturity looks like in adults. Mm-hmm. And and I'll tell you, maybe we'll just throw one on here a little bit too, let me go to one of my favorites and it's magical thinking and my whole. Hypothesis here is, well, and I got this from this therapist named Terry Real. That's pretty amazing. People should go look up Terry.

But it's the things that were adaptive or they helped us and our childhood become maladaptive and they no longer help us as an adult. So here's the coolest one, magical thinking. Did you did we talk about, we talked a little bit about this, right? We, yeah. , we have a little grandson in the house, not we. It's your. He's my nephew. Nephew, my grandson. 'cause you're my daughter. I'm your dad. Yeah. And we had Easter and he had this big old egg and so he put it in front of his face.

And so what is he thinking? Right then? Everything's gone. He, he disappeared like it was, 'cause then when he, he alone, he's, and then when he takes the egg away, we're all like, oh my gosh. There you are. So that's healthy, magical thinking. It's age appropriate, or when you were a kid, did you think that if you left your stuffed animals not like in a good position or something, they'd be sad? Or did you have any of those kind of thoughts? I wasn't listening. Okay. One more time.

Okay. Did, did you, so when you were a kid, did you think if you left the room and you're stuffed, the animals weren't in a nice position on the bed or something, they might be sad or they might Oh yeah. Be okay? Do you still. No. Okay. I'm, I'm just checking 25. I mean, so that's like, but no, definitely that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's magical thinking.

And so then what does it look like as an adult it's where adults with the, with magical thinking, just assume partners should just know what they want without communicating it. So that's one. Well, you should know. Everybody knows, right? That, that's magical if you think about that. Because how on earth should that person know? How would they possibly know? Think of how many things go through your brain every second of every day. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way.

No, and then the next part of magical thinking is, or if I ignore it, it will go away. And on this podcast episode I talked about how much I don't like opening my mail. I'm a 55-year-old professional human being. Yeah. You don't have a problem with that? , because if I don't open it, then nothing bad will ever happen. Yeah. That's magical thinking. It's emotional immaturity. Yeah. Is what I'm saying. And that's, I kind of do that and mom gets on me for it. Does she?

At night, when I have things in the morning that I don't wanna do, I stay up late so that I don't have to go to sleep. Because then if I go to sleep it goes, I used to do this in high school all the time, and mom would be like, the day's gonna come anyways. You might as well go to sleep I'd be like, but if I go to sleep right now, it'll be like that. Or I can stay awake and then it feels longer. Okay. That is this magical thinking.

Yeah. Or the other one is people that don't look at their bank account. 'cause then they just think, then that means there's no problems. Oh. Again, maybe, maybe similar, maybe currently going through it. And the last thing I'll say, and then I wanna jump back to questions, is on this note, Kelly's here. Oh, hey, Kelly. All right, Kelly. I would say, where have you been? We, we, where we been? . But this magical thinking stuff is wild we go back to when you were a little kid.

If I close my eyes, you can't see me. But then you mature out of it. Hopefully. But this is 'cause we're supposed to outgrow this magical thinking because we're supposed to develop this cause and effect relationship with life. So the cause and effect. So I have had to pay more late car registration fees in my life. 'cause I'll get the thing from the DMV and I know it's in there, but if I just put it over here, then I don't even know. That's what's silly about magical.

Or even then it's the, another version of magical thinking is, if I don't write it down, I'll remember. Oh. . I do that Cause and effect, that has not worked so far or at all. That's never worked. No. For the whole time you've been alive, , but it still seems like the window. Yeah. , I just think that's interesting and that ties back to when we were talking about things like people that wanna know if they're borderline or somebody narcissist and I , I. I think we're all emotionally immature.

, when you find out , what emotional immaturity looks like, it's mind blowing because then you , can't unsee it. Even if somebody just says, well, I probably don't even want to try to talk to them because I'm sure it's not gonna go well, then I'm doing magical thinking. 'cause I'm saying, okay, if I don't talk about it it'll be okay. Or I've already said, and it's not gonna go well, black or white, all or nothing. And magical thinking.

Now you throw one more in there that I've been really fixated on. It's emotional reasoning. So kids believe if I feel it, then it must be true. So if I if I feel like you are mad at me, then you are mad at me. And that's where a kid will say, stop yelling at me. Because they think you are yelling at them because they think like they've done something wrong. And at some point the parents like, Hey bud, I'm not, and they're like, geez, stop yelling.

And then I've, we have had that interaction when I was little all the time. Well, all I know when you were little. Yeah. Hey kidding. about like Hundred percent where I'd be like, because you felt bad, I'd freak out and be like, you're yelling at me. And it's like, you're not even talking any different. But to me, I'm like, stop yelling. And what's crazy is that talk about emotional maturity then at some point then, if you don't. Get it.

Then most parents inevitably say, finally they're like, I'll show you what is yelling, and then they, I've never yelled at they why? I know. Wow. That's very kind. Um, you really haven't, but I've never heard you . , okay, I said one more, but one more, one more, and then I hope there's some questions there. Poor emotional boundaries because kids merge their identity with their caregiver.

, we get our sense of self from external validation and then eventually in adults, it means that you start taking responsibility for other people's emotions or feelings, and you make other people responsible for yours. So then if I say things like, , if you wouldn't have said that, then I wouldn't have had to react this way. I just made that person responsible for my emotions. Or the other one is, , and this one I think is interesting. This is one of those you can't unsee.

Where if I said, well, man, Mac, . I almost didn't ask you to come on here tonight. 'cause I didn't want you to think you had to and I didn't want you to feel obligated. And I was worried that you might think You didn't even give me the chance. Exactly. Exactly. To be like, I'm actually fine. Yeah. 'cause I'm actually managing your emotions. In that scenario, my emotions were just fine. And then yeah. And you said, yeah, I'd like to do it. I'm like, are you sure?

And then at some point it's look old man. I said I'm sure. Look old man. Okay. Alright. Okay. We have to speed, run some things. Okay, good. When you weren't bringing 'em up, I was thinking, oh, what if nobody's doing? No. Okay. Um, okay. Going off of the one about you, how do you turn it off when meeting new people? Oh yeah. How does that affect your relationships? Ooh. I always thought it was super cool. Yeah. Anyway, you're breaking up. I think No, I'll still, I stand by.

I think you balance it better than you maybe give yourself credit for. Okay. At least you portray it that way. Yeah. Where it doesn't feel like you are Mr. Therapist guy all the time. All the time. , and you have a good balance of, okay, I can step in and say these things and like bring in these tools. Yeah. But you also have at least as my dad, like there were plenty of times where you were just my dad. . You know? Yeah. And that's, that could be hard.

And I think that that's a good way to say, and the reason I made the face was I would say, okay, let's let's get your mom in here and ask her how it's been. Because I think one of the, oh wow, okay. I'm having a nice moment right now. When I said, oh, yeah, I don't turn it off. And it's no problem. But then when somebody just wants to feel heard or understood, let's say like a, a spouse and then. And I talk all day about, Hey, don't try to fix your partner's problems. Like just hear 'em.

But then there is that part of me that's okay, I will, but I actually think I can help as well. So it's like I still think you're not turning it off, but you're able to like, hopefully put it to the side for a second. Yeah. And be, you know, you know what's funny though? And I wonder if you, I say, would you have the courage to be this vulnerable and say, yeah, you do this a lot again, old man.

But when you guys are telling stories or talking about certain people or friends, it is interesting 'cause I want to interject constantly. Oh, that's, yeah. That's immaturity or that's when seen, you don't do that. Oh, I think I, okay. Oh, I don't, I think I do. Okay. A, not in a way that feels, I guess then that you're just like, yeah, because I think that's my own way of wanting diagnosis, everything, ever.

And I think it's my own way of maybe a little bit of wanting validation, but also I did 10 years in a. And a job I didn't really care about. Yeah. And I like this one so much that there's a part of me that just thinks, okay, I do see that pattern in a relationship and I do want to say it. Great question. . How do you stop overthinking? I, I thought I'd have a funny joke that would come out right now. Okay. Take this one out. You know this one polar bear, right?

Yeah. I'm not very good at this one. You've been working on it? I've been working on it. I think just. You have to wrap your head around the fact that, that sounds harsh, but that overthinking does not solve the problem. . And it's like your brain is, I feel like it's, you have to practice it. Yeah. A lot like, a lot like years and years and years. Like I'm talking, I've been practicing since I was what, 15 now at this point? Yeah. 10 years. Still not have it figured out.

What's the person's name? I wanna look directly in the camera and be very powerful. Esperanza Esperanza. That is a very good question , here's where I think some of the origin of this is, , let's look at anxiety for example. Anxiety initially was a very good thing for our ancestors because they were worried about saber tooth tigers or turn in a corner and somebody robbing them. And so you start to anticipate or overthink a lot of different things and it's a survival mechanism.

But the problem is now we overthink so many things that are not gonna happen. We're worried about just if, again, if somebody thinks something about me or if somebody took something a certain way or what if, even if I like my job now, but what if , what if people stop coming? Or what if I get banned for something? Or what if and what if? And if we just think about those things all the time, then it will cause us to then think about more things. Well then, should I be doing this?

Or maybe I shouldn't say this, or, you know what I should do, I should probably start looking at something else as well. Or there. So when you start thinking and thinking and then it moves into overthinking, it'll ramp up your anxiety even more. So what Mackey's talking about is so good. You said the white polar bear thing. What? What was that? You said you thought I was gonna say the white polar bear example.

You say this thing where you go, okay, don't think about a purple polar bear wearing a tutu standing on a skateboard. What color was the tutu? I had a pink. I kinda had it pink too. Yeah. So Mikey's and I guarantee everybody just thought of that. Yeah. And if they didn't, they're super immature. I didn't Yeah, nice try. So you can't not think about things. So even your question where you're saying, how do I stop overthinking your brain right there is saying, well, I will keep overthinking.

You have to change your relationship with your thoughts, which means I am noticing that I am thinking, and I even think if you're calling it overthinking, it's probably gonna cause a little bit of a bump of anxiety. Because, oh my gosh, I'm doing that thing again. I'm overthinking. Okay. Don't think about it. It's like, but you're just, the thoughts are gonna come and go. It's just, yeah, part of having a brain. It is and changing the relationship with your thought.

And then know that none of your thoughts that you're having are crazy or wild, or they shouldn't be there because you're thinking that the way you're thinking because you are. And you're thinking the thoughts because you're the only version of you that's ever been on Earth and you've had all of your experiences, , there's so many variables that go into everything. Mm-hmm.

Like we say, we go to a movie and I'm thinking about a million different things about me or my experiences that then I see and I think I like this, or I don't like this, or this reminds me of this and 'cause I get really scared easily. So even at that movie Sinners that we were talking about. There was still that part of me that I do not like to be scared.

Mm-hmm. So in those moments, I wasn't even paying as much attention because I'm thinking, okay, is it gonna be now or is the director gonna do the thing where, when you least expect it? Or is it when you most expect or when you, so I'm always thinking of, I didn't feel any of that. Didn't, so it's like that. Yeah. Oh, so it's all, it's sort different. Yeah. It's crazy. Let me give you a very short homework assignment, Esperanza. And that is.

, the best tool you can start to use is is mindfulness meditation. , here's the biggest key. It's not about trying to stop your thoughts. And I think that's the number one r Wrong answer. I'm trying to not be so dramatic. But that's the misconception about mindfulness is that people will say, well, I can't stop my thoughts. They to clear your head. Yeah. That is not what you do. Mm-hmm. Not at all. Yeah. What do you do? Well, there's a. I remember in the Headspace app.

Yeah, which is the mindfulness app. There's little like videos and one of the videos they show you is to take thinking like this and view it like every thought is a cloud in the sky. Yeah. And you're just laying on your back and you're looking up at the sky and the clouds are just going by slowly, but they're not like nothing's getting bigger or smaller or heavier. It's like they're just going by and you can look at it and you can watch it go by and you can even, and nothing has to change.

Nothing has to. Cause you to spiral or go crazy. It's just like a, hey, look at that. There it goes. And what's good about that example is I like that one as well because, and you might even notice that some of the clouds are getting a little bit darker and that might cause you to notice that you are feeling a little bit more worried about is there gonna be rain?

But then you come back to noticing the shape of the cloud or the size of the cloud or the darkness of the cloud. And all of a sudden I am noticing. That I'm feeling rain and then at some point, and the cloud's still moving though. Exactly. And then it's still like, yeah, it doesn't have to take over. Yeah. And so I was gonna, that's a great example. There's another one called Leafs on a stream. And you can do this for 30 seconds.

You can do it for a minute, you can try to get it up to five minutes. And all you have to do is just sit back and just notice thoughts. And you might be thinking even this sounds ridiculous, and take, this sounds ridiculous, and just put that on a leaf and watch it go down the stream. And then all of a sudden you'll think this is really silly. And then you think, put that one on a leaf and watch it go down the stream. And you are practicing just it is a thought.

You're noticing that thought and and if you can even do it better, but now I'm gonna get thinking about the Disney movie, Pocahontas. Then you can even watch as it goes around the river bend. Oh boy. I know. Can you start singing for I I am in my head. And don't tell me not to 'cause I'll do it even more.

Okay. So you so moral of the story. You what a what an adorable concept to try to stop overthinking. But I can notice that I'm thinking and then I can now learn to change my relationship with my thoughts. Okay. What do you got? Somebody called me. Maggie. Maggie? Yeah. Do you like that? No. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Do you, do you remember a walking dad where Maggie was she, is she still around? On the Walking Dead. As far as I know, I never finished it, but yeah.

Okay. Whatever season I'm in, she's still there.

Okay. How can you be completely honest in a relationship? Ooh. Oh, okay. Side note, someone said, now I know what my girlfriend feels like when I talk about psychology. Bless her soul. Okay. Meaning that it's awesome, right? She's so lucky. It's so fun. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Completely honest in a relationship though, right outta the gate. I wanna know. We have a psychological philosophical discussion on should one be a hundred percent honest, should one be a hundred percent honest.

Is that the goal? I would say, yeah. Okay. Is that not right? Well, th this is like I said, in terms terms of what, well, that's the big question. , kinda goes back to if every single thought that goes through my head, then I think that I need to share with somebody. Oh no, I don't think like that. Yeah. Yeah. But I think don't. Sit there and blatantly lie about things. Yeah. I, you know, yeah. I think that's be open.

But no, I don't think you have to go, I don't think you have to write down every thought you have in a day and be like, here you go. Well, because I've had people that have done that and they said, look, I'm just being honest. This is what I'm thinking. Again, it goes to the thoughts come and go, and it doesn't mean there's truth behind them and it doesn't mean, yeah. Well, and that one also, well, and here's one too where, let's say that somebody's just thinking about something.

Here's one that I had recently in a session where a person came to me and they said, man, I've been thinking about, the, my partner's sibling. In a certain way. And then they said, I guess I should let my partner know that your thoughts, well, part of me goes, maybe don't, but then part of me goes, yeah, tell 'em so they can get rid of you. Okay, but what Okay does that feels scary. Well, and that's what's interesting and that's why so, so now I don't know.

Because if that person, if it's just a thought and now they feel guilty about their thought, oh well, yeah. Okay. So it's so complicated. It is because it's just a thought that was a second and it passes through and it's like almo like. Now. Now if they start thinking, man, I shouldn't be thinking that, but there's the truth I guess, is the, is the well. And that's where I think and then I go back to that where it gets complicated.

Can you go talk to a therapist about it or maybe even a friend about it? Because here's where it gets a little bit fascinating, is then if it is just a thought. And now let's go back to that one earlier where I'm trying to stop thinking that, and now that means I'm even thinking it more and now it's starting to cause me anxiety. And now if I want to now share that with my partner, is that just a way for me to alleviate my anxiety or my discomfort?

And even goes back to this thing we were talking about earlier with emotional immaturity. Did I just say, Hey, I don't like the way I feel, so I need you to manage my O emotions. Mm-hmm. I need you to tell me that it's okay that I'm thinking this versus I need to know it's okay that I'm thinking this. 'cause that doesn't mean that I'm gonna do anything about it. Hmm. Your thoughts. See, it's fascinating though, right? It's fascinating, but then it's fun.

Then like my emotional immaturity is coming in. 'cause then I'm like. If my boyfriend was thinking certain things, I'd be like, you have to tell me that. Okay. You know? Yeah. But not really's not fair because are thoughts, are your thoughts always just No. Okay. That's, that's, I love this question, so that's why it's that's why I just said my, it's my emotional maturity where I'm like, you have to tell me everything. It's like, no, but I'm not going to because my mine's different. Right.

It's different for me, but you need to let me know. So it's like that's not, no, that's not how it works. This is where the beginning of this Interesting. I know, and I've thought before about, okay and I'm not some math guy or anything, but earlier I talked about helping a client have a 90% solid, 10% flexible sense of self. Meaning that what if when people are saying, I think you, you know what you need to do, or you need to change this. If 90% of me is saying, well, I'm actually good.

But I'm leaving 10% open because I wanna be the best me. Yeah, I'll take, I'll, I wanna hear what you have to say. Be a little bit open. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause oh, you, I hadn't thought about that. In this scenario, I've often thought, alright, what would it be? 95% open and honest, 90% open and honest. 10% is a me thing. And, but I do, and this is where I go back to what I love about my job is it is nice when somebody does say, okay, I just wanna unload some thoughts.

Because sometimes they mean things and other times they are just thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. So great question. That was fun. Tricky. Yep.

Tips on how to handle the father-in-law that wants to be called a grandpa, but he doesn't make a lot of effort to be a grandpa. Oh, that's such a good question too. Because my initial thought there is, and I love the way you phrased the question, because that person, , first of all, do they even know how to be a good grandpa? Do they not know what they don't know? And so your expectation of them as a grandpa is.

I'm not saying it's too high, but are we on different pages here or is that guy subconsciously or consciously aware that he's not being a very good grandpa? But as long as you tell him that he is, then he's like, okay, cool. I don't have to do anything else. So it's like, yeah. Is he, does he think he's doing a good job or does he know?

Yeah. And this gets into, maybe this is a theme of tonight is this a little bit of that emotional immaturity, which I'm saying we're all emotionally immature If anybody's just joining. But if there's a way that I think he should be, but I haven't communicated to that, that would fall back into that magical thinking. Mm-hmm. Because he wouldn't know. So it's like, has there been a conversation?

Yeah. 'cause if you're saying, Hey I really think it would be good if you spent more time with your grandson. And he's like, oh totally. Well, I'm just so busy, or this or that, or whatever. But then when you put him on the phone or hey, make sure you tell him that your grandpa loves you, . Mm-hmm. Then I could see where that would be frustrating. So have you communicated what your, expectations are the right word, but maybe of what you would like his role as a grandpa to be.

Yeah, that would be the question. Yeah. I'm not saying that like you're doing it wrong. That's the starting. No, but it's like that would be the starting point. Yeah. But then if those conversations have already been had, there you go. And he's still not showing up the way that he has, I think then you're allowed to have your boundaries. Mm-hmm. And whatever that means for like you and your kids.

Yeah. And I think that there's, I know not everyone feels that way, but just because somebody is family and related to you does not mean that you. Owe them anything really? . Like, just because they're, I know people feel very differently about that, but just because somebody is blood related to you, it doesn't mean that you just have to like. Roll over and do whatever, you know? Yeah. I'm with you there. And we are blood related. We are, but if you are kind like you're, you too.

Okay. But if, yeah, if you have to, if you feel like you're compromising your values or your own sense of self or like that's not Yeah. Just then that's not respect from their side and there's so many other things to that. Yeah. So it's like it, yeah. So I think complicated question depends on, but a good one. The things, but. So you have to give them a chance to Yeah. Because if you're secretly resenting them because they're not doing the things that you think they should do, goes back to that.

That's little magical thinking. Isn't that wild? . Yeah. Okay. But and if there's follow up questions too that feel free to Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I, I can circle back to this. I could love this one.

Okay. Um, difference of bipolar and just anger issues. That is a great question. 'cause there, if we look at the diagnostic criteria of bipolar, let's just look at a DX of bipolar disorder. Okay. Bipolar disorder. Okay. Diagnosed based on the presence of specific mood episodes including mania, hypomania, or depression. And then the absence of other potential causes.

And I think there's the key because if I am going through this depressive episode or this manic episode, but there really aren't necessarily these mitigating circumstances or triggers or that sort of thing, I. Then I think we would be looking more at a bipolar diagnosis. But if somebody is angry, one of the first things I wanna do is say, okay, let's take a look at why you're angry. But if it is just like anger issues, there typically is a trigger. Yeah. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. Yeah. And what's fascinating now we get into that whole world of primary and secondary emotions. , let's say that I'm not happy with where I am in life. And then I continue to have these anger outbursts, then is it really a secondary emotion?

The primary emotion I'm feeling is embarrassment or, I'm frustrated with myself, so now I'm lashing out with anger because if I can lash out with anger and get you to go, geez, or whatever, then now we can make it about our relationship and not about where I, how I feel or what I'm doing. So that's one where then I think that you can look at the, if there's a secondary emotion, then is it more about anger's actually there to tell me something about myself. It's just hard to really.

Understand that. Yeah. If you're that kind of anger anger is a primary emotion is a fascinating one. That's usually more around it. Like I, I can't think of a better phrase than just injustice. So if somebody is treating you wrong, then you're gonna get, you're gonna have an anger response. And that is, thank you body for looking out for me. But most likely when you were a kid, when you got angry, somebody's telling you. Hey, calm down bud. Or it's not a big deal.

Or don't worry about it, or just get over it. So it goes back to have we been taught that our emotions are wrong to begin with? So then I don't, I feel bad if I'm getting angry, so then it comes out in other ways. That's what I would look at more. But true bipolar is, you got these three, four day long manic episodes where people, I've had, I had a guy buy a house down in Southern California one time on a business trip. 'cause he just.

Stop by a neighborhood that he thought was pretty cool, a manic episode. Then a few days later realizes, oh, that's a non-refundable deposit. His wife is not very happy. Yeah, that'll do it. That'll do it. . Okay. . So it's a Venn diagram type of thing, but they do, they are very like, I think that, yeah, but I would look at the, what's the trigger for the anger? . . Have you ever felt days of mania, everything's great and you can fly and solve all the world's problems?

I know, I can't say that I have me neither. I, I do like this. I like saying that you can't really, not that you can't help somebody where with something that you haven't experienced or you can't lead someone where you haven't been before. But I do often say with something like bipolar, then I can help with the diagnostic criteria. We can go over examples but that's one that I haven't experienced. So it is, it can be a little difficult to help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been angry though.

Same. Yeah. I think this was back with when we were talking about being honest in a relationship. Mm-hmm. And someone said, and being rudely honest is not nice or direct is not nice. Yeah. So again, it's like, . Because that's where somebody hides behind. He still being honest. But there are ways to be. Yeah. Kind. Yeah. 'cause if somebody says, well, I don't like this thing. Look, I'm just being honest.

I think, oh no, you're being a jerk and you're just like basically diffusing your, an anger or frustration and then trying to justify it and make it . And saying, look, I'm telling you, I'm just being real. Yeah. And sounds it's like that. Yeah. What's wild about that though? Layer to it. Well, I think you and I have talked about this before where, or if somebody says that and if you just say, oh, okay, thank you. But then they're like, well, what are you gonna say about it? Like, nothing.

Nothing. Thanks. Yeah. It is funny when you kinda show up that way. Yeah. Okay. This. This is the, from the person that said their girlfriend has to listen and talk about psychology. Okay. I know I wanna hear more about this.

No, but this one I'm curious 'cause I'm sure you know what comes first, the thought behavior or the feeling. Oh, so this gets into that whole like kind of behavioral therapy says, you know, just change your thought. It leads to a different emotion and that emotion leads to a behavior. Again, I was a cognitive behavioral therapist for a decade. Mm-hmm. And then I learned acceptance and commitment therapy, which is just, I am thinking, I am feeling. And check that out.

There is no, well, it's order in that sense, or, well, it gets to be the little bit of chicken and the egg kind of thing. Or in the world of addiction, when I work in there, we often talk about, there's a trigger that then does bring up a thought, and then there's typically an action that follows. Mm-hmm.

So then you're trying to see if there, if you can address the triggers like a trigger o often in with like addiction or turning down healthy coping mechanisms, there's a acronym I like Halt Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. There's one that's blast. I like that one too, because it adds B, which is bored. So if you are bored, and that's when you then typically turn to some unhealthy coping mechanism then the work to do is to try to figure out the boredom. Mm-hmm.

Um, but if you have the feeling of boredom, then that can often lead to the thought of, well, I could always turn to unhealthy coping mechanism and then the behavior. But then there are also times where somebody's doing a behavior and then that leads to the thought of, oh, this reminds me of this. And I feel this way. It really is a chicken and egg thing.

Yeah. And what I like about this is sometimes my experience as a therapist is sometimes people do I appreciate like they want to know maybe the order, but I would just kinda wanna understand more about why that is important. Because if it's just like a, oh, I'm just curious. Or if it, if it's like a specific scenario of Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I default back to acceptance and commitment therapy is. Every single moment of your life is the first time you've ever been you in that situation.

And it is a unique combination of your nature, nurture, birth order, DNA abandonment. Mm-hmm. Hopes, fears, rejections. So then you are going to think something or feel something. Or when you are behaving a certain way, it can, it can follow. Okay. Riddle nerd is huge. Riddle nerd. I finally looked, I looked up Real Nerd's account a little while ago. Yeah. And I think Riddle Nerd is a serious very smart person. I think like smart person.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I think real nerd knows like engineer space. Yeah. Engineers and stuff. So real nerd. It's always good to see you, but I think is said, that's how I bought a motorcycle outside of my budget. I hated that thing. I'm guessing that's why, too. Oh, mania. Yeah. A little manic episode. I, yeah, I can see that. Yeah. Mania plus money equals frustration. Too much credit. Oh, no. Real nerd. Thank you.

Now I got you in my mind after that, whenever I've when you're here, it's okay. I think you're designing like spaceships and things like that. We're just gonna leave it at that. Okay. Okay. Believe that. Okay. This person dunno name. Okay. Jumped off real fast. Did you guys answer that one about grandpa? We did. And basically to sum it up, we said, oh yeah, we, we did a good one on that one. So this will go up on YouTube at some point?

Yeah. So you can go back and see it, but just to kind of speed run it. Yeah. Yeah. We basically just said you have to start from the part of, have you communicated. Any of those thoughts, right? Have you, yeah. So we have you let the grandpa know that you're feeling that way or that he's not showing up in the way that you want him to, because you do have to give him the opportunity to show up and to correct those things. But if you've already communicated those things.

And it should just be like common sense at this point of how he should show up. And we're not talking about the magical thinking, kind of common sense like, well, everybody knows this. No. Like actually like just be a decent human. Yeah. Common sense. Then you are allowed to have any boundary that you need to have in that scenario.

And then we got into a little thing talking about how just because somebody is related to you doesn't mean that you owe them anything or have to compromise your values or, . Just because they're family and you are allowed to. Protect your values, protect your family, whatever that looks like. . Yeah. And was our speed run? It was, but please go. Go find this video when it goes up on YouTube in a few days. Virtual catch YouTube channel because.

We went in depth there because I like so many things. We talked about the magical thinking of somebody should just know, but then you also have to give somebody a chance. Well, okay, and we didn't talk about this, so here's what I've also noticed. The more that I talk to people about emotional immaturity is let's just say, and I don't know that this is what this, what you're saying, person that asked this question, but if you are saying, well, oh, okay, cool. No, not yet. Okay, I'll, okay.

So even if it's okay, you know what, they should just know. Well, oftentimes I, I will now even say, what would it look like? How would you know that this person is, let's say, being a good grandpa? And then I would say in a lot of situations where it's happened a lot in my, I'm a couple's therapist, so when somebody says, man, I just don't like the way that they did that, and they should know, and all those things, then I'll say, okay, how would you feel seen or safe or heard right now?

And often the person, if they're being honest of saying. I don't know. I just, he should know. And then I say, okay, now we're into the world of magical thinking. And then that's where we need some good old vulnerability of saying, okay, you know what? This is what I would think that the role of a grandpa looks like. Or This is how, I'm assuming that a husband would show up right now and then, but then that person can't be immature and say, that's ridiculous. Why would you think that way?

They need to go in with curiosity. And say, okay, yeah, tell me about that. Or help me understand or, 'cause if not, we're into this this poor emotional boundaries or what I call it's emotional reasoning where again, if I feel it, it must be true. I. That's the immature version. So with an adult, it's okay, I feel abandoned, so therefore you're abandoning me.

So at that point, then the person is gonna, they feel bad, they feel like something's off, but now they're saying, I don't really know even what it is, but I need you to make me feel better about it. So start dancing and then if you don't do it right, then they get to say, gosh, you don't really care about me. And internally I might even think, am I unlovable? And the whole thing is like, or Hey, I don't even really know what, what, how I feel right now, but let's kind talk about it.

Does that make sense? It does. And so it's just there are conversations that can be had there. Yeah. But that doesn't just justify someone not showing up the way that. You think that they should, you want them to for the sake of your kids or like something like that. I like what you said though. The word I would, I, there it's okay to want certain things in a relationship. Mm-hmm. It, but you need to be able to communicate that.

Yeah. Hey, I would love it if you spent, took our, your grandson to breakfast every other Sunday. Like, whatever that looks like. It's like you're allowed to have to communicate those things. Yeah. But then if you have communicated, have given the chance. . And they continually don't show up in that sense. . Then it's a different answer. Yeah. Tell me if you ever had this, what I see a lot also as a couples therapists or maybe somebody that is saying, no, I want to, I wanna be there for you.

Just tell me whatever you need me to do, I'll do it. And there's two things going on that are a challenge here. Number one, is it saying, okay, I put the burden back on you. No, you just need to tell me what I need to do. 'cause then if I do it, then I get to say, okay, check the box now. Aren't you super happy? Where's my trophy? But then what I off often find is that person will say, okay it might be like, I don't know, maybe you can mow the backyard more.

And, but they see, they literally just had to pull it outta their back pocket. But then the person will often say things like, I don't know. You know how my back is like, that doesn't really, but anything else you need me to do, I'll do it. So there's just so many layers of immaturity there. And they said, they say they're so busy, but it feels like they're always too busy. Oh, yeah. And so again, that's the thing where I would argue. They need to make the time.

. That's, they need to make the time there and that's not a valid excuse all the time. No, it's not. Because I would imagine to this person that they're so busy except for when they're not and Right. And when they do the things that they want to do. They're prioritizing other things. And again, that's not how you want someone to show up.

. , this is why I love the concept around emotional maturity, because I would imagine you've had conversations with them where they've told you something about even, oh, and then we just laid around all day and wasn't even sure. And then maybe later you're saying hey, why didn't you make it to their T-ball game? They're, oh man, I had so much going on. Noisy.

And that's where it takes a lot of courage to say something about, Hey so tell me more about these times where you feel like you don't have a lot going on or, what would it need to, what would need to happen for you to be able to go to the T-Ball game? Or that sort of, because you almost want the guy to just say, look, I don't like T-Ball. Right. You know, because it's like, you almost have to get them to that point. I think we do too. This is what you do if you want, but show up. Yeah, exactly.

Like show that you care. Yeah. To be fair, I did enjoy coaching Teeball. Yeah, I didn't play T-ball 'cause I was a girl. Oh, you could've man. And let me, oh no, no, don't say I don't know that. Thoughts on the, I don't wanna say the name. Freudian. Freudian. Freudian. Freudian. Yeah. Hate.

I believe it to be revisionist history. Harmful to say. That's an interesting concept. So Freudian hate, I think what they're going to is now we're throwing Freud, Sigmund Freud, under the proverbial bus. Oh, my guy. Yeah, because a lot of his theories. Maybe they don't hold up as well. Okay. But here was a guy that, that we didn't even talk about psychology.

Yes. Granted, he, the joke about psycho he used the father of psychodynamic theory, which is the, everything kind of resorts back to your parents. Tell me about your mom, but as a practicing therapist, I went into this whole thing saying, yeah, what does Freud know? And then fast forward a decade, and it kinda is about your mom. And your dad actually on this emotionally immature podcast I did, I talked about why we typically go toward the familiar in relationships.

The Freud's version of it was, Hey, you marry your opposite, sex parent the traits of 'em your opposite sex parent. Repetition, compulsion, and then you are trying to heal your own wounds with your parent, with your spouse. So sometimes people are saying, I didn't marry my mom, and that's kind of gross, but, so I've been calling it more of the familiar Isn't that a thing though? Don't people say that all the time? Oh, that's what I'm saying guys always try to date their mom and whatever.

Yeah. ' cause they are, they're trying to work through those. That's totally a thing. Yeah. So that's a Freud thing. And then it's, I actually just had it listen to my last podcast. I put it on the virtual couch and on waking up to narcissism on emotional immaturity. And I have a whole section in there of. Of it, it is the familiar, so if you might have married somebody who you are continually looking for their validation.

Yeah. And it's because let's say that your mom was overwhelmed, she had a lot of kids, or she was depressed, or your, her husband was maybe not the most present. And so then she was going through a lot, and this is actually like the basis of anxious attachment theory is where when you needed validation from your mom, who was your primary caregiver, she was busy.

So she would kind of, Hey, not now, but then when she needed to feel like a good mom, then she's saying, oh, come tell, come give your mom a hug. So then all of a sudden you're like, okay, I guess. So then you think to yourself, all I want is for somebody to really pay attention to me, but you don't know what that feels like.

So then you get in relationships with people that you try to perform to get them to pay attention because that's the familiar and so then when you know, then all of a sudden when somebody, they turn their attention toward you, then it's uncomfortable. So that's like some good old Freud stuff. So he had a lot of stuff Right. Also had some stuff that's interesting. But I like what they're saying. Little revisionist history. Something. He was onto something.

Yeah. Riddle Nerd said, my sister is marrying someone very similar to me. I'm kind of weirded out by it. Okay. So what is, is that good or bad for Riddle Nerd? Be flattered or offended? Oh, that is really FI mean, what Riddle nerd, we will just call it the familiar. Because it would be, it would be familiar if something is complete. And this is what's fascinating.

This is why we, I say that we get into relationships and we're pretty much codependent and meshed outta the gate is because we want the familiar, we want it to be comfortable. And that's why we even compromise our own sense of self and say, no, I love this movie too. Or I love these things too. Even if we kind of don't. Because we think that we need to be perfectly aligned in everything.

But then the whole thing about becoming differentiated is the more you go through life and have experiences, you realize, oh, we're two completely different human beings. And now that we're having kids or we, we are having big kid jobs and we have to deal with money and finances. Now all the stuff that you dealt with in your growing up comes in here and there's expectations. Well, everybody knows this. Or you just think that you're gonna be on the same page.

And meanwhile you start compromising who you are 'cause you think it's just supposed to be super easy. Is that, did you tune in? I'm following. I'm following, but Riddle nerd said, well, she was very mean growing up and he feels bad for the guy. Oh. And then said, thankfully she's learned to be an adult, but she definitely wears the pants in that relationship. Okay. I, there we go.

So there would be the familiar right, is that she's finding someone that it, that feels like what a relationship is. Because if, let's say that there was somebody that then even in a kind way stood up to her, or mm-hmm. Or stood up for themselves, then it's gonna feel really uncomfortable for her and that, so that would make sense where she's probably gonna write that guy off because it's so different or uncomfortable.

And that's sometimes where our immaturity comes in a little bit, where then we assume and this one's another, it's mind reading. Children assume others see the world exactly as they do. So adults with this pattern make assumptions about their partner's intentions without checking, and then they feel, they feel hurt when unstated expectations aren't met. So that's where, we're assuming that everybody thinks the way we do, and so they need to validate her for the things that she does.

And if she's, if people in the family have I wanna say enabled it, but I worry that enable enabling sounds like such a judgmental word, but it is, if she got away with it and. Her home. Yeah. Then it works for her. So why would she not Yeah, continue. Yeah. She doesn't know what she doesn't know.

Okay. We're probably close to Yeah, the hour, so the puzzle piece will come, we won't hit it. Yeah. We will probably disappear in a minute or two and we won't even know it and we'll probably keep talking. Anything less speed round, everyth, anything else there? Back to grandpa. How can a grandpa love his grandkids but not play with them at all? Yeah. I have a hard time with this one 'cause I've got a grandkid and I do like playing with him. Mm-hmm. Okay. There's a couple of things here.

You see, this is where I'm gonna over therapize this for a moment, and this is where I do give people the benefit of the doubt. They don't know what they don't know. The hard part is that a grandpa is probably, by the time he's that old, gonna have a hard time with some good old self confrontation. So if he. Thinks he's a good grandpa. I would really wanna understand what his thoughts or expectations about what a grandpa does is.

Right. So it's like, I really think there's just, there's something, it sucks, but there's more communication that has to be had there because Yeah. You can't rule out that he's, that he think he's doing well. Yeah. And that there's potential for him to end up being . Good. But you won't know until those conversations are Yeah. But okay.

You and I were on a walk a couple days ago and we were talking about, but at some point, is there almost like a, a limit for someone's ability to self confront change, that sort of thing? Yeah. Because it would really take him to be able to be okay with the discomfort. Right. And he'd have to do some work. Yeah. And yeah, sit with that discomfort and, yeah. Yeah. Because it's really not as scary as people think for maybe a grandpa to say, oh, okay.

Yeah I don't know why I don't spend more time with. My grandkid, but I want to be viewed as a good grandpa. So what would I ask him? Oh, so what would I ask him? That's a great question. It really, okay. No it's, I it still is a good question. I realize I was doing it a little bit of the pause. Watch it, watch the thing in right now. I know it's but it's the, it really is, hey tell me about your grandpa. What did you, what did your grandpa do with you?

'cause a lot of times people will get reminisce and, or they'll either say, oh, we didn't do much of anything. Well, then it's oh, well there's your model. That would maybe be a good easier conversation starting point. A good like, . . Or if their grand, if they say, my grandpa did all these things with me, I could also see as him wanting to say, so therefore I have to be that gram that type of grandpa.

But then I. They don't want to think that they're not doing the things and then I call 'em Yeah. Buts where then they can Yeah. But well, yeah, but I'm busy. Yeah. But so then you could even be curious to say, Hey, what would it, what would you need? In order to spend more time with the kid. Mm-hmm. And then if it's well, I'm busy, I'm this, I'm that. It's oh, totally, I totally hear you. But you wanna be a good grandpa. I would love for you to have a better relationship with their grandson.

So what would it take for you to be able to clear time or and that could be hard. I have had a couple of people do a little bit of family therapy. I. Which is tricky 'cause if you said, Hey dad, or Can you come into therapy so we can talk about something? Yeah. So that one might be a little bit too much. Okay. Advice for new therapists, best resources to assist with learning to diagnose. Oh, I, this one's, I think about this a lot and I get this question a lot. It, it's.

When you're a new therapist, it you currently just often feel like you need to just know, know these things, but even diagnosis, a lot of the ways that people show up are gonna come with getting reps in the couch, I like to say, or reps in the chair. Give yourself a lot of grace and you're going, it's gonna be bumpy and if you have a, most likely, you probably have a clinical supervisor that's there to look over your paperwork or help with the diagnosis.

And so this is where I. I wanna, I don't wanna say I wish I would've been more vulnerable, but you don't know what you don't know, and the people that you're working with hopefully do. And so don't be afraid to ask them for help.

And if they say, well, you need to figure it out, or you should just know I. I'm gonna call their emotional immaturity out on that one because you, if you don't know, then that's what they're there for, is to help you understand more because you can't really understand a lot of the, I know nuances of behavior and diag and things that lead up to a diagnosis until you've seen a lot of reps. You start to know what I use the word normal looks like, but a little bit

more of, ah, this is a pattern, . . So give yourself grace and ask for help. And if somebody doesn't wanna help you, then they're a weenie. Yeah. That's a, that's a, that's a diagnosis. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So helpful. Thank you. Yeah. Should we wrap it up? Yeah. It's gonna end any second. Okay. Hey everybody. Thank you so much. Go watch podcast. Wake up to Narcissism, virtual couch. When are we gonna do another one of yours? The mind and mirror me. I gonna have, it's been like a year. It would.

And that's all we have to say do you wanna go turn it off on someone? Yeah. You can just sit there and stare at it. Stare duh, I'm frozen. No, that's that little creepy right there. I don't think I can pull that off. Okay. Bye. Bye everybody.