Pathological Kindness: When Caring, Trying, and Empathizing Too Much Can Be Bad For Your Health

Music. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 427 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified Mindful Habit coach, and I'm excited to be here today. And we're going to get right to today's topic. Of course, I would love for you to sign up for my newsletter.

Go to TonyOverbay.com or follow me on social media, Instagram at virtual.couch, TikTok at virtualcouch, Facebook, I think that's Tony Overbay, licensed marriage and family therapist, all those wonderful things. And if you like the podcast, if you ever get the chance, please review or rate, subscribe. YouTube, actually go there. And the virtual couch is on YouTube. I put most of the videos up there. And then there's a lot of YouTube shorts that touch on things that aren't necessarily

things that come from the podcast as well. And there's all the promotion. Let's get to today because this is one of these topics that I just enjoy so much. We're going to talk about relationships and we're going to talk about people and their different roles and relationships. partnerships and I think the best

way to do it is I'm going to dive into an email. The email is from a listener named Cleo and they let me know that that was not their real name and their partner is not their real name as well. But her story, it touches on a lot of concepts that I want to go over. I'm going to read the email in chunks and we'll take a lot of time here to break down as much of it as I can. So let me start by reading the letter and then we're going to go break it down

in detail. She says the letter. It is an email. I don't even know if they're referred to as letters anymore. She sent me an email. So Cleo said, Dear Tony, I'm so grateful for your podcast, all of them. I've been listening to your Waking Up to Narcissism podcast for over a year and I continue to feel like you must be following me and my husband around because of the things that you describe.

They're so much like what I am living through. This might seem strange, but I recently said a phrase that you often say that you don't know what you don't know, followed by I was just being and doing. And my friend started laughing and saying, oh, you listened to the virtual couch. And she said, I was confused. But we eventually realized that we both listened to you and weren't really aware of the other podcasts. So I started listening to the virtual couch and I love it.

But my friend is in a bad marriage and she had no idea, or at least she doesn't want to admit that your waking up to narcissism podcast might apply to her marriage. So I just wanted to share my story and then see if that might be something you could cover on the virtual couch. Because a lot of women, and I'm sure men, are in bad relationships, but they are only looking at them through the I-can-fix-it or the virtual couch

lens, when I think the waking-up-to-narcissism lens might be really helpful. So here's my story. I've always been the nice girl. Growing up, my mom was always on edge, and I learned early on, if I was perfect and kind, I could keep the peace. I became the family peacemaker, always smoothing things over and making sure that everybody else was okay. I thought this was just who I was, but now I'm realizing it might be why I'm struggling so much in my marriage.

I met Ray five years ago, and at first, everything was amazing. He was charming and attentive. He seemed to need me so much. I felt like I'd finally found somebody who appreciated my kindness. But over time, things changed. Ray's moods became unpredictable. He'd be loving one minute and cold the next, and I found myself constantly trying to figure out what he needed. And I felt like I was always walking on eggshells.

I've always been sensitive. My friends joke that I can feel somebody's mood from a mile away, but with Ray, it's kind of exhausting. I feel every shift in his emotions, and I'm always trying to make things better. The problem is I'm so focused on his feelings that I do realize I've lost touch with my own. Lately, I've been thinking about leaving, but it's so hard. There are moments when Ray is sweet and loving and I cling to those thinking, see, he does care.

So if I just try harder, maybe things will get better. But then he'll say something cruel or dismissive and I'm right back to square one. The strangest part is even when Ray hurts me, I find myself making excuses for him. I think he must just be in pain to act this way. Or if I love him enough, he'll heal and things will improve. And I assume he feels things as deeply as I do, that his love for me must be just as intense as mine is for him. But more and more, I'm wondering if that's true.

I've tried to talk to Ray about our problems, but he either dismisses my concerns or turns them around on me. He'll say I'm too sensitive or that I'm imagining things. Sometimes it'll be nice for a while after these conversations and I'll think, okay, we're making progress. But then things go back to the way they were and I feel like I'm losing my mind. I know logically that this relationship isn't healthy, but every time I think about leaving, I feel guilty.

And I worry about how Ray will manage without me. I remember the good times and I wonder if I'm giving up too easily. It's like there's a war in my head between what I know and what I feel. I have several friends who've been telling me for years that I need to put myself first for once, but the idea just feels so foreign, almost wrong. I've spent my whole life taking care of others, and the thought of prioritizing my own needs makes me feel selfish and uncomfortable.

And I'm starting to realize that always being kind isn't always being kind to myself, but breaking free from this pattern feels impossible. How do I start putting myself first when I've never done it before? How do I know if what I'm feeling is love or if I'm just in a trauma bond. I'm hoping that by sharing my story, maybe you can help others who might be in similar situations. Maybe there are other nice people out there who don't realize that they're stuck in unhealthy patterns.

Thanks for all you do. Your podcasts have been a lifeline. Sincerely, Cleo. That covers so many things that I think maybe you can see now why I thought that this would be, it would be the perfect muse to talk about. So I want to break this down almost line by line and pull out the pieces that I think will help people. And I like how she said there's the virtual couch lens, which I think it really is learning about four pillars of a connected conversation.

Lots of different psychology topics. Do I have ADHD? Am I seeking validation? And then over on the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, and I realized that there are people that listen to the virtual couch that have never ventured over into that world because of the very word itself, narcissism. But I can't say enough that what we're doing on the Waking Up to Narcissism side is taking that word because it's used a lot.

And one of the things I did early on in that podcast was acknowledged that narcissistic personality disorder is maybe three to five percent of the population, but it's thrown around as if it were 70 or 80 percent. Everybody's ex is a narcissist, everybody's boss is a narcissist, everybody's spouse at times is narcissistic. But what I defined early was we're actually all just emotionally immature.

And that's a pretty normal part of being a human being because that does fit into the we don't know what we don't know. And it takes a lot of work and effort to really take in new data and information. We may say that we like to, and we do, but think about that. It's a lot easier to take it in when it's pretty comfortable.

And the growth actually comes through the discomfort. One of the key points about differentiation, which is this need that we have to maintain connections with others while holding on to our own sense of self. And if we don't even really know who we are, as cliched as that sounds, then we're continually showing up in an emotionally inconsistent way.

And when that's happening on both sides of the relationship, then you can just see that over time, it starts to feel like there isn't much of anything that we can talk about that isn't just easy to talk about. So her story touches on a lot of different concepts that I think will help you if you're looking at things through whether it is the virtual couch lens of really, what can I do to fix this? Or even maybe the waking up to narcissism lens where it's, okay, we're both emotionally immature.

I can look at how I'm showing up, but I can acknowledge that a lot of the times when I'm trying to show up, my spouse is taking the information that I'm putting out there and then turn it against me and making me feel at times like I am crazy. Cleo starts by describing her childhood. that she said, I've always been the nice girl. Growing up, my mom was always on edge. And I learned early on that if I was perfect and kind, I could keep the peace. Now I have to jump in with humor right away.

I love when somebody says that they are a fan or they listen a lot and they say a lot of the things that I do find myself saying. But it is interesting because I can't help when I hear when she said, I've always been the nice girl and my mom was always on edge, that I go back to that all or nothing black or white thinking. And when I'm doing couples therapy, I do bring not even gentle, pretty aggressive awareness when somebody is saying he always or she always or she never.

Because you watch as a couples therapist when as soon as the other person says she was always this way, that the other person is immediately, you can almost see them tune out a little bit because in their mind they're thinking, okay, I can think of times when I wasn't. So even just the semantics can become important at times where I feel like often this is the case. Because often, okay, I'm a little more interested. Or if somebody says, it's been three months since he told me that he loves me.

And if the guy's thinking, that's not true. It's actually only been two and a half, which is not the point. So I just think that that one's interesting. But she says, if I could keep the peace, I was perfect and kind. I could keep the peace. I became the family peacemaker, always smoothing things over and making sure everybody was okay. I thought this was just who I was, but now I'm realizing it might be why I'm struggling so much in my marriage.

And it is fascinating when you look at that her view of self is that this is my job to take care of everybody. And I think so many people, especially, and I know having grown up with a stay-at-home home mom. My wife's a stay-at-home mom. And that work is incredible and amazing. And I think, and I'm not just saying this, but it doesn't get its due. Because I think it's just, you're there all the time. It's like you're at work constantly.

And I know that then a dad can come in and now I get him for a few hours and maybe on a weekend. And I'm saying that as if I'm divorced. I'm not. But if my wife needs to run some errands, I remember growing up, we had four kids. They were all two years apart.

And then I would get there and basically just get to shake them up and watch them run around and then when she comes home help unload groceries or do whatever that looks like and say they were easy and the immature version of me thinks man that's kind of fun i wish i could do that all day that's what the immature person will say but so when somebody just feels like that is their whole sense of self or purpose is to then just give up themselves

for these other little people it's so admirable it's so incredible it's there's a part where it's so necessary necessary, but then I think at the expense at times of truly still holding on to your own sense of self. And I don't even know if that can be changed or explained early on because it's part of that we don't know what we don't know when we're young and having kids. But with Cleo's situation, I think that this is where we get the origin story

of what I like to call the pathologically kind person. And I'm going to spend a little time with this because I use this phrase is often over in the waking up the narcissism world, where there's often this pathologically kind person who is finding themselves in a relationship with a more emotionally immature person. And as a friend of the show and an author of Human Magnet Syndrome, Ross Rosenberg says in his book, that forms a human magnet.

And this concept of Human Magnet Syndrome is very real, where the relationship almost becomes breakup resistant. Let's talk about pathological kindness. Imagine somebody who's always putting others first, even to their own detriment, even when it hurts them. That is the pathologically kind person.

It's as if they are the superhero of niceness, but I don't necessarily think it's so super for them because people that play that role, the pathologically kind person, they've often grown up in families where they had to be the peacekeeper or where they had to even be perfect to keep the peace. Maybe they had a parent who was always upset and they learned, okay, if I can be super nice, that was the way I can calm things down.

Or if I can be a perfectionist, if I can never get anything wrong, then maybe I can diffuse some of this anger or frustration of my parents and they will find me and I will bring them joy. It's like they become the family's emotional little firefighter. And then I don't think I've spent any time in the past talking about how significant it is to add the word pathology to something like kindness.

Because if you're aware, familiar, the word pathology comes from this Greek word pathos, which means suffering or disease. And then you've got logos, and that means the study of. If you look at this from a medical context, pathology often refers to the study of disease and then how they impact you, how they affect your body.

But in psychology, I think also in just the behavioral sciences, pathology is often used to describe patterns of behavior or even patterns of thoughts or emotions that can be a little bit outside the norm or they can even be maladaptive, they can be harmful, and they can cause distress. stress. So, now when you put those together, pathological to describe a behavior or any trait, what we're really saying is that that trait, that behavior is persistent

and it's habitual. So, it's pretty consistent. But it also implies that it's extreme or it might be a little bit exaggerated beyond what is considered typical or normal, which I know sometimes I play the normal police, sometimes I think who am I to play the normal police. But the key is that it can can become harmful or detrimental to the person. So here's this trait that is a wonderful trait, but then it can be to excess.

And then when somebody has this pathology, there's a little bit of resistance to change, even if it's causing them problems. So if you look at the concept of somebody that's pathologically kind, if we combine those words together, now we're describing a pattern of kindness that has been taken to an extreme and it's persistent and it's actually potentially can be harmful.

When I'm working with somebody that identifies as pathologically kind, honestly, the last thing I'm trying to say is that we need to knock the kindness out of them. But has that trait been overused or overextended to that person's detriment? If you really look at why this concept then of understanding pathology around something like kindness, and we'll talk about it with other things too, it's because there's a few points that I think need to be brought up.

One is excessiveness, because it indicates that this kindness is often taken to an almost unhealthy extreme where it can zap your own sense of self. And while kindness is a positive trait, when it becomes pathological, it's not balanced or it can start to become unhealthy. And then there's also feeling of self-neglect because a pathologically kind person is prioritizing others' needs to the point of neglecting their own well-being.

And I know that can be a balancing act because when you have little people running around. You can't quite say, okay, I need to take some me time. You guys just chill out. If you're a two or three-year-old, their version of chilling out is, I don't know, playing in the stove or running out into traffic. I understand that this isn't an all-or-nothing thinking. And then typically the person that would be viewed as pathologically kind, they do have a lack of boundaries.

And I think this is because they didn't see those modeled growing up.

They will struggle to set and maintain healthy boundaries and that will often allow others to take advantage of them and over on the waking up the narcissism side i talk often about these five rules of interacting with an emotionally immature person the first one is self-care self-care is not selfish raise that emotional baseline and the second one is to get your phd in gaslighting know when somebody is causing you to feel pretty crazy about something you're pretty certain of the third

one is get out of unproductive conversations the fourth one is learn to to set healthy boundaries, but that's where I try to spend time differentiating what a boundary is versus an ultimatum. Because often we think that we're setting a boundary, but really we're giving an ultimatum. I need you to stop talking to me that way. Well, to the emotionally immature. The little kid or the adult, you just showed them your buttons.

This is what's important to me. So the boundary is actually, if you talk to me that way, then here's the consequence. And with an adult, it might be that I'm going to leave, but, or with a kid, if you talk to me that way, then you are, I don't know, you're not going to get any dessert. That's not one that really fits, but I think you see where I'm going there.

And the fifth thing is that you'll never cause that person to have the aha moment or the epiphany, which is very significant because too often that pathologically kind person is in this position where, no, I will take the ownership of this. I will fix it. Let me do the research. Let me go to the therapist. Let me read the books. Then I will tell you what I think would help.

But to the emotionally mature, they're saying, oh, oh, you are telling me you think what I'm doing is wrong, and then that's the fuel they need. So now, oh, I know what to do with that. Well, actually, you're wrong, and I'm right, and I need to go in this one-up position because that's how I feel like I'm alive or that I matter.

And then to the world of the pathologically kind, there are some underlying issues here because it does stem from deep-seated issues like lower self-esteem or this fear of abandonment or maybe even some unresolved trauma in childhood or even as an adult.

And there's a little bit of compulsive nature here too because the kindness becomes almost a compulsive behavior rather than a balanced expression of care and this is where it can almost look a little bit like ocd because if you think about what ocd is when somebody has this obsession it causes them to feel uncomfortable. Let's go with the classic washing of hands. If they're afraid of getting sick and germs are the vehicle and they see germs everywhere.

And so if they touch things, now they think, oh my gosh, I've got germs on me. And that causes a lot of anxiety, a lot of discomfort. That becomes the obsession. So the compulsion is to wash hands and that is to alleviate that discomfort. Now, unfortunately, with OCD, really, it will just come back again and again.

But when you look at kindness almost as a compulsive behavior, then is the discomfort there and that someone else is struggling or someone didn't finish their homework, somebody forgot to bring their lunch to school. And so then that causes me to feel anxious or feel uncomfortable. comfortable. So what's the compulsive behavior that I can do to get rid of that? Then I will take care of it. I will do whatever it takes. I will be that kind.

I will put my needs and wishes to the side and I will go take care of this person. So that compulsive nature is pretty fascinating with that. And there is a little bit of enablement here because the pathologically kind person can inadvertently, I think that's the key word, enable some negative behavior. And because that kind person is starting to shield others from the consequences of their actions.

And I am guilty as all can be on this. This is not me saying, here's a ton of examples where I sat with my own discomfort and let my kids fail. And that's one of the toughest things, I think. I give this example of, yeah, somebody has said they forgot to do a school work project. Man, combo pack of ADHD, impulsivity, a deadline, the dopamine dump of a deadline, line, wanting validation. All of a sudden, oh, let's go. 10 o'clock at night, this thing's due at midnight or tomorrow.

This is when I work best. So I will actually now get validation from my kid. I will rescue them from a situation. I'll pat myself on the back and feel like the world's greatest dad. But then what do they do? Then do they take that now and say, gosh, I got to get better at keeping track of assignments or I need to really start using a planner now?

Or do they just feel like okay that's done and and i'm gonna get a grade even and this will but the pathological kindness also will lead to difficulty in the relationship because this is this can lead to imbalanced relationships where that pathologically kind person is constantly giving without receiving to the point of where then when they need something that is not what the family's used to so then everyone else is busy right now and i hear that story over and over again in my office of

people that that is all they do is give to others. So when they need something, there isn't anybody there that is willing to give back. And I think often that's because we find ourselves in these situations, these systems, family systems, where we fall into this role. And the role often of a mom, a pathologically kind mom, is that I'll just take care of everything. Or nice guy syndrome dad, where, okay, I don't like the discomfort of saying no, and people are asking for things constantly.

So I'll just, I'll figure it out. I'll work more. I'll do that. And maybe even, maybe they'll all appreciate me. I mean, that's the hope a lot of times that the nice guy who suffers from nice guy syndrome.

And that all leads to an internal conflict because there's this disconnect from the person's excessive kindness and often their true feelings of, man, I don't want to work this much or I do wish that I could engage in my own hobbies, but I just feel like this kindness, it just is there and I can't get rid of it. And this is what I do in hopes that people will recognize or notice or that I will then feel completely fulfilled from this. And that starts to lead to this internal distress.

And we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second. But I think it's really important to recognize this pathological kindness lies in understanding that even positive traits, because I cannot stress that enough, kindness is a positive trait. But when it's taken to an extreme, that it can start to become problematic.

And that's what helps differentiate between healthy kindness and then a pattern of behavior that's more rooted in, I want to say a psychological issue, but I don't want that to sound like we're saying that you must now go into a psychological hospital because you are pathologically kind. But if you are somebody that identifies with this, talking to you, Cleo, and other people listening, recognize that behavior, being able to recognize it as, yeah, I think I am one of the pathologically kind.

That is a brilliant, beautiful first step. It's crucial in starting to learn and develop healthier patterns of interacting with others. And this is where those concepts of differentiation, I'm going to have to deal with some discomfort now. It's going to hopefully validate your experience and help you start to look at your struggles, maybe frame your struggles as a pathologically kind person in a way that can start to be addressed because we didn't know.

And now you know, it's something that you can start to sit with.

Because I think that whether you're in a relationship or especially if you're working with a therapist, understanding that that pathological kindness can guide the help you get, the interventions that therapists can do to start to work with things like healthier boundaries, self-care, and then looking for more balance and relationships. It might be recognizing some of the relationships you're in right now are more of this give and take versus the reciprocal relationships.

And it helps shift that narrative of above all, kindness is always the right thing. Because look what our brain does immediately goes to, oh, so I'm supposed to be a jerk? Oh, no, that's the all or nothing, black or white thinking. But just recognizing that there's balance to be struck there between caring for others and caring for yourself. self. I just jotted down several other things that if you take them to the extreme,

I just want to show like what each side of that looks like. So take something like, this is empathy. That's a, that is a hot one. I talk about empathy often, but the positive version of that is, okay, I am going to try to understand. And really I want to feel the, share these feelings with others.

The extreme version of that though, that maybe the pathological version is emotional exhaustion, because now you're taking on everybody's problems as your own, and you can have a real hard time separating your emotion from other people's. Look at some things like ambition, the positive version of that, this drive to achieve, I can achieve goals, I can improve myself. The extreme version of ambition, maybe the pathological version, a workaholic.

And people that are neglecting personal relationships and their health, and they just don't feel satisfied with their achievements. I talked to someone recently that they're in a large position of service in a land far away. They were a workaholic in order to become successful enough to put themselves in a position to go and do this type of work.

But now that they're over there, their spouse felt like, okay, this is a place now where we are in a position in our life where we can relax a little bit. But this person's ambition, I would say, is pathological. They cannot turn it off, even when they're in this beautiful place and they are trying their best to enjoy retirement. But that is a pathological version of ambition. Or you look at things like loyalty. Sounds like a great thing.

The positive version, being faithful and supportive to friends, family, organizations, causes. But there's an extreme version or pathological version of that where people are so loyal that they stay in abusive or toxic relationships. Or they have a blind allegiance to faith or a political candidate or anything like that because they are being loyal. So that would almost be that pathological loyalty.

Frugality, something I'm not so familiar with. positive version, avoiding waste, budgeting, which I've heard so much of. Now the extreme version, I have watched this in therapy, being a miser. I don't even know if that's Scrooge McDuck kind of language, but denying yourself and your family of just some basic comforts. It can even start to look like hoarding.

I remember working with somebody a long time ago that they were arguing about a car that continually broke down and not even having an extra, the entitlement, not even having an extra car, if you can imagine this, but in this situation, a lot of kids, a lot of things to get to and one old beat up car.

And then at some point the, the spouse looked at me and said, and I think I've told the number on a podcast long ago, and I'm sure I don't remember the exact number, but it was something like, Hey, do you think having 800 grand in savings is enough that we could get a new car? And I spent the rest of the appointment trying to stay present, but thinking 800 grand in savings.

Like that's, that's wild. I would, I would definitely have a a different car as well as maybe a grill, gold teeth or something else like that, which is probably why I'm not in that position.

Some other ones though, self-reliance, positive version of that, you're independent, you're capable. I can handle things on my own. The pathological version of self-reliance, I cannot ask for help. I am isolated and I'm burned out from trying to do everything by myself. I will not, I refuse to ask for help.

Optimism, positive version, seems pretty simple. I've got a positive outlook on life. Extreme, this is like a, this is a buzzword these days, toxic positivity, denying, minimizing real problems. You cannot process negative emotions.

Humility something i'm incredibly good at insert laugh track you know the positive version of that be modest about somebody's accomplishments and importance but the pathological version which sometimes i think this is one of the close cousins of pathological kindness self-deprecating yeah the inability to accept compliments undervaluing your own contributions and work where you'll hear people often just say oh man yeah i i wouldn't be able to do that even if i tried where something something?

Yeah, they can. I know they can. This is one where my wife has done this Alcatraz swim seven or eight times from Alcatraz to the shore. She's incredibly talented and finishes in the top of her age group most every time. But if I bring this up, I'm not really a good swimmer. That's self-deprecating. She's phenomenal. Incredibly talented with that. It's fascinating.

Honesty. That's one that I talk about when we're looking at people's values that people will often think, okay, if I don't have a core value of honesty, then something's wrong with me. But there's, of course, there's the positive version, being truthful, having integrity. Those are, I'm pro both of those. But there's an extreme version, a pathological version of honesty, which is brutal, bluntness and no tact, sharing inappropriately personal things, the inability to keep secrets.

And I've spoken with someone just a few days ago that they want to share deeply with a spouse, but they cannot trust that that spouse will keep their secret because if somebody asks them a question about it, they said that my spouse will just, they'll say, well, it's just being honest. And so there's the pathological version of honesty, patience.

The good version, wait calmly, tolerate delays without getting upset. The pathological version, passivity. Other people taking advantage of you, neglecting your own needs, your own timeliness. So one more confidence. Positive version, believing in oneself.

I think we know the pathological version of confidence, which is an interesting way to say it. Arrogance, dismissing others' opinions or expertise. Here's where we get into that world of emotionally immature or taking unnecessary risks. So, I think that this part, and here we are barely into Cleo's letter, but I think that's a very significant part of understanding the pathology behind kindness.

Because I think that this helps understand that traits that can be viewed as positive can start to be problematic if they're extreme or inflexible.

So let's get back to Cleo's relationship with Ray. She says, I met Ray five years ago and at first everything was amazing. He was charming, attentive, and he seemed to need me so much. I felt like I'd finally found somebody who appreciated my kindness. But over time, things changed. Ray's moods became unpredictable. He'd be loving one minute and cold the next. I found myself constantly trying to figure out what he needed, always walking on eggshells.

And I think that it's important to note that this part of Cleo's story starts to show why the pathologically kind people are often drawn to the narcissist or the emotionally immature partner. Because here's the tricky part. The pathologically kind person ends up with that immature partner because it's almost like this puzzle piece that fits into place because the kind person is used to putting others first. And so when she said that he could appreciate how kind she was.

So that narcissist or the emotionally immature person loves being put first so the kind person then feels needed which there's that concept of the familiar so she feels like okay she knows what to do when she can put somebody else's needs first and then put her needs second and then she starts to talk about her sensitivity

she said i've always been sensitive my friends joke that i can feel somebody's mood from a mile away but with ray it's exhausting i feel every shift in his emotions that I'm always trying to make things better. The problem is I'm so focused on his feelings that I've lost touch with my own. And this relates to what we call a highly sensitive person, HSP. And they feel things more deeply than others. It's like their emotional volume is turned up to an 11 all the time.

And a lot of pathologically kind people would identify as HSPs, highly sensitive people. And they do say that they pick up on others' feelings easily, which makes them great at being kind, but then it can also feel pretty overwhelming.

And next, Cleo talks about her struggle to leave the relationship. She said, lately I've been thinking about leaving, but it's just so hard. There are moments when Ray is sweet and loving and I cling to those. They can see he does care. If I just try harder, then maybe things will get better, but then I'll say something cruel or dismissive. And then I am back to square one.

And this, this does talk or speak to the emotional inconsistency that I think it's part of that concept that we truly don't know that we don't know. And I won't spend too much time on this, I think this is for a future episode, but I have recognized as I have tried to become more emotionally mature myself that so often we're unaware of the things that I would say fall into this bucket of validation.

If I come home and I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed and I really just need everybody to know that I've had a rough day and you just need to give me some time. I really am wanting them to know. And if I want them to know, that would technically fit in that validation bucket that I need these people to understand or else then it won't matter or it won't. It's as if it hasn't happened.

But if I know that I've had a rough day or I know that I've been a little bit emotionally overwhelmed myself, then what I can do if I'm really trying to become differentiated is take that in and that there's nothing wrong with me. It's part of being human and I can acknowledge that I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed. I'm feeling those big emotions And then I can sit with those for a minute. I can get grounded before I head home, maybe even on the ride home.

And I can just say, okay, I am so sorry, emotions, for shoving you down my entire life. Let's hear it. And if they're saying, okay, that was a lot, or I feel like you weren't able to really express the things that you wanted to. Well, then there we go. Thank you, emotions, for just making yourselves big and helping me become aware because there's where I can pull out a nugget of self-confrontation for growth.

Growth, yeah, there's truth in that, then why was I not expressing myself, coming from a place of authenticity, if that's one of my core values that I really want to be able to express myself. And if I'm grounded, and if I know that I'm coming from a good place, then I can share these things as a therapist in a session. If I have somebody that's saying, okay, what do you think that that was rude of me to say?

And if I really do feel like it was rude, but if I didn't say that, if I was saying, well, I can understand you're frustrated, what I just did was I avoided the question. It would be okay for me to say, you know, in my experience, yeah, that does come across as a bit rude. Now tell me, tell me how you feel about that. And what is your definition of rude? Because if you're asking me that, then I'm, I do feel that way.

Now I'm still maintaining this connection, this conversation or this relationship, even if it's a therapeutic relationship with the person that's asking me that. So then I actually get the model that, oh yeah, I can have these feelings and I can still actually stay engaged in this conversation, maintain this connection. In that scenario, I can get grounded. And then by the time I make it home, then I'm actually okay. And I can show up and be more emotionally consistent.

So, and I think that's one of the fascinating things is I'm not trying to say that we can never express our emotions, quite the opposite. But do I need to express those emotions to everybody that's walking around me because I need them to tell me that it's okay to have those emotions? Or do I know it's okay? And so those emotions are me thing. And what are they saying to me? What can I learn from these emotions?

And if I'm in a relationship where I feel safe and secure, then I can even start to process these emotions with another human being. And then I can say, hey, let me take you on my train of thought. I got pretty overwhelmed when this happened. I don't know. What are your thoughts? What happens? Do you ever have that experience? And what's that like for you? And now we're having a shared experience. And that's one of the greatest ways that I can really be able to self-confront.

But if that isn't available, then it is 100%. It's a me thing.

But I think, or I worry where Cleo is going here is it's a classic example of you got cognitive dissonance, which I covered on an episode last week and trauma bonding. Because when you are trying to leave a relationship, the kind person often faces this mental tug of war and that is cognitive dissonance. They're thinking things like this person hurts me, but I think they must love me deep down or things are bad, but if I just try harder, I think it'll get better.

And I want to cover some of the ground that I covered last week, but I've been thinking about it even since that episode. When you really look at cognitive dissonance and we throw in this concept of trauma bonding, it is where your mind and heart are actually what is in a tug of war and they're pulling in opposite directions. This is the internal conflict that can just suck the life out of you. It becomes draining. It can disorient you.

And it is really one of these telltale signs of being caught in a relationship with somebody who is emotionally manipulative or narcissistic. We're burning so many emotional calories on trying to figure out what is going on or what is wrong and so if you are navigating a relationship that is filled with all kinds of contradictions.

It's going to leave you feeling like okay am i tightrope walking am i supposed to be juggling here am i spinning plates i'm not even sure because your brain's constantly trying to make sense of all of the inconsistent experiences and emotions which that is what starts to lead people just emotionally depleted exhausted tired and that ongoing struggle that starts to chip away way at your confidence and your overall well-being, your sense of self.

But if we want to find a silver lining, and there can be one, even though there's a lot of confusion, becoming aware of these conflicting thoughts and feelings, maybe guessed it, there's the first step. There's the bottom rung on the ladder to clarity and to healing.

Because as you start to recognize all of these inconsistencies, it's like you're slowly adjusting your vision and you are allowing yourself to acknowledge that there are inconsistencies and not trying to immediately cover them up with a, yeah, but, yeah, but they're also kind of nice. And that can start to bring the real true nature of this relationship into focus, but it can start with into focus for you.

And the more you have this awareness, this growing awareness, then you might start to spot recurring themes in your relationship that you really weren't aware of before because you were making excuses because you didn't want to think that this person was actually being pretty mean because we immediately go to, but maybe it's because of this or they also are pretty nice.

Because where we're trying to get to here is to start trusting your own judgment, trusting your own gut, rather than constantly questioning your perception of things. Because your emotions are traveling far faster than your logic. So you're taking in visual cues, you're taking in auditory cues, and it's going to that part of your brain that is immediately saying, is this safe? Is this okay? And it's even trying to scan for context, like what's going on here?

And it is so important to understand that it is okay to admit that a relationship is not living up to your hopes and your expectations now that first admission might need to just be internal because if this is where if i immediately explode and say this is not working and i'm in an emotionally immature relationship then i just handed that person fuel to say yeah you bet it's not working and i'm tired of the way that you're handling things like wait what i'm the one that

just brought this up but having these mixed emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's emotionally immature it's a natural response and when you acknowledge that that is a thing that is how you're feeling actually it's more of a sign of emotional maturity not some flaw in the relationship. Because if you find yourself continually just grappling with all kinds of conflicting behaviors, conflicting emotions in your relationship, then I think it's safe

to say it would be time to take a step back. Maybe you need to pause and you can even reassess. And I'll continue to reiterate in this podcast today that you can do that and start from a place internally, inside your head. Because too often we just want to blurt things out. And then if we are in an unhealthy relationship, then that just gives that person more fuel to then turn it back around on us.

I want to encourage you to get guidance from a therapist, a mental health professional who knows these complex emotional waters of immaturity because you are entitled to a relationship. And yes, I use that word entitled. In this scenario, we're not talking about the young kids these days and their sense of entitlement. Now, I can tell you to get off my lawn or my porch or whatever the old people like myself say.

But I think that in this scenario, you are entitled to a relationship that brings you emotional stability. It brings you contentment and joy, and you can process emotion in concert with another human, not a continual cloud of uncertainty and self-doubt. Because we want to get back to that place where we listen to that inner voice.

We practice self-compassion. and and it will start to to come in small increments and it is absolutely fine to prioritize your emotional health your well-being and to seek out relationships that that nurture and support you because there's a real mental struggle with the whole up and down of a relationship because that is what creates this trauma bond this intermittent reinforcement that the same person that can

provide you with the punishment is also the one that has the key to the reward it is this emotional rollercoaster that is hard to get off. And some people, I think, quite frankly, become somewhat addicted to because then they just feel like if there isn't chaos, if we're not going on the downhill or we're not going on the uphill, then there will be no downhill. But that pathologically kind person, go back to the pathology of it, remembers the good times intensely.

Remember, because they feel things so deeply that they keep hoping that these good times are going to come back. But meanwhile, if you're in a relationship with a narcissist or emotionally immature person, they might act nice just often enough to keep the kind person hoping, to keep them just going on. Cleo then describes making excuses for Ray's behavior. She said, the strangest part is, even when Ray hurts me, I find myself making excuses for him.

I think he must be in pain to act this way. or if I love him enough, he'll heal and things will improve. And I assume that he feels things as deeply as I do and that his love for me must be as intense as mine is for him. But she said, more and more, I'm wondering if that's true. And I think that is another common misunderstanding with a person that we were deeming today as pathologically kind. Because I think this is where it really starts to get confusing.

Because a pathologically kind person being so empathetic assumes their partner feels things as deeply as they do. maybe not is on the same exact level, but pretty similar. They must think if I love this deeply, they must too. If this is hurting me, I can't even imagine how bad it would hurt them and I don't want to hurt them. But the narcissist and the emotionally immature person doesn't have that same depth of feeling.

And then Cleo mentions in her attempts to communicate with Ray, she said, I've tried to talk to Ray about her problems, but then he either dismisses my concerns or he turns him around on me and he'll say, I'm too sensitive or that I'm imagining things. And sometimes it'll be nice for a while after these conversations and I'll think, okay, we're making progress. But then things go back to the way that they were. And she said, I feel like I'm losing my mind.

And a couple of things. One is this is where... Just because you are no longer having unhealthy conversations does not mean that the relationship is good. The absence of bad in a relationship does not equate to good. It's just that we are finally not having a negative interaction in the relationship. And I really think this part of Cleo's story shows how the lack of a stable sense of self, a core identity starts to impact her relationship.

Because always focusing on others can mean that the pathologically kind person doesn't really know themselves very well. Well, it's like they are so busy being what everybody else needs that they forget to figure out who they are. And that isn't healthy because everybody needs a strong sense of self in order to make good decisions, to be able to set boundaries. And then I think that Cleo expresses her inner conflict. She says, I know logically that this relationship isn't healthy,

but every time I think about leaving, I feel guilty. I worry about how Ray will manage without me. I remember the good times and I wonder if I'm giving up too easily. She said, it's like there's a war in my head between what I know and what I feel. And that internal struggle is a key part of why it is so hard for people like Cleo to leave these kinds of relationships.

And just if we go back and review, this cycle is so tough to break because the kind person is used to putting other people's needs first. They will continually believe in the potential of the relationship, even to their own detriment, and they feel responsible for their partner's happiness because that's the role that they played growing up in their childhood.

It and then the intense emotions those are what they know that's the familiar and that feels like love even when they're actually from stress or from anxiety. So finally, then I think Cleo does acknowledge about how hard that is to put herself first. She said, my friends have been telling me for years that I need to put myself first for once. But she says the idea feels so foreign that it feels wrong.

She said, I've spent my whole life taking care of others. So the thought of prioritizing my own needs makes me feel selfish and uncomfortable. And this is a crucial point for the pathologically kind person, because breaking free means that the pathologically kind person has to do something that's going to feel wrong to them, put themselves first. And it's like they are learning how to write with a, I'm left-handed trying to write with my right hand.

I mean, it feels very odd and very uncomfortable at first, but I've been told if I continue to do it someday, it would, could actually feel somewhat normal. But understanding all of this, that's the first step in breaking this cycle.

And it helps that pathologically kind person see that always being kind isn't always being kind to themselves or even to people in their family, and learning to balance that kindness to others with kindness to yourself, that that starts to become this key to a healthier relationship. Because I think that her story, why I really appreciate this so much is it is such a good example of how complex and challenging things like her relationship with Ray are.

It is not just as simple as telling somebody to just leave, just leave a bad relationship, because there are deep-rooted psychological factors that are at play here. So if there's anybody that's listening who relates to Cleo's story, remember Remember that recognizing the patterns is the first step toward change. If you are feeling something very familiar today with that story, then just sit with that a little bit. Take it in. There's nothing wrong with

you. You're just starting to process some data. And know that the last thing I'm saying is that you need to knock it off being kind. It's okay to be kind, but it's crucial to extend that kindness to yourself. So seeking professional help, talking to a therapist, a coach, that can be invaluable in starting to learn how to navigate these complex emotional landscapes that are known as relationships and build healthier relationships, both not just with other people, but with yourself.

So, let's wrap things up here today because I think that her story, it just shows the complex interplay between being pathologically kind, being highly sensitive, and then feeling somewhat stuck or trapped in a relationship with somebody who is emotionally immature or even on the spectrum of narcissism. Because it's a pattern that a lot of people find themselves in and they don't realize how they even got there. They're just there.

But that journey from recognizing the dynamic to then breaking free, it's a path. It's challenging. But it's also this path of self-discovery. It's a path to a healthier relationship. But remember that if you can relate to Cleo's experience, you're not alone. And there's absolutely hope that things can get better. So I want to just give you a couple of takeaways. We'll call them today. First, recognize that, again, being kind Fine, admirable, but not at the expense of your own well-being.

I would also say, understand that your empathy and your sensitivity also are strengths, but can they be balanced with strong boundaries? And I know that can be a challenge. And remembering that a boundary is not an ultimatum. It's not a, you need to do this. It's a, if you do this, then this is what I'll do for myself. And then I'd say, finally, remember that love should not feel like a constant struggle or an emotional rollercoaster. So how do you implement this? What do you do?

Here we go. oh, self-care, self-care is not selfish, small acts of self-care

daily, even if it feels uncomfortable. It can be as simple as saying no to a request that doesn't serve you. I really am on a big journaling kick right now, journaling about your feelings, your experiences and your relationships, because that will help you start to identify patterns rather than just kicking things around in your head. And then you will start to recognize things that you're writing down and maybe it will help you start to trust your own perception.

And finally, I would really recommend that if this resonated today, reach out to a therapist or a counselor, But one who specializes in things like codependency or narcissistic abuse recovery, because they will be able to really recognize all these variables that are at play and give you a little bit of personalized guidance and help you navigate these big emotions, these big relationship dynamics.

Also know, change does take time. Every small step, I'm not trying to say this in a, oh my gosh, every small step, you better start making all the small steps now, but every small step towards self-awareness, every small step towards self-respect is an absolute victory. Now, if you have been listening and you have realized that you might be the

emotionally immature person in the relationship, I want you to know this is a big moment, a moment of self-awareness, and it is incredibly valuable, but it is not easy to look at ourselves honestly and recognize behaviors that might be hurting those that we love. But I promise that by doing so, you've taken a big step. And it's often the hardest step toward a positive change.

Because remember, emotional immaturity is not a lifetime sentence as much as people think it is when they hear about that. It's a starting point for growth. We're all emotionally immature until we're not. So your willingness to acknowledge the patterns that you might be engaging in, that shows courage, that shows a capacity for self-reflection. And that is going to serve you incredibly well on your own journey of development. It's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's okay to feel even feeling guilty.

I don't want to go into shame, but just don't let those feelings stop you. They aren't there as a dam. And those are feelings. Start to let them in. Use those feelings as motivation to learn, to grow, to become the partner that you maybe have always wanted to be. And I would also say to you, work with a therapist who can guide you through the process of emotional growth, emotional intelligence, emotional IQ.

IQ, you name it, and you can start to work on being empathetic, practice active listening, learn to regulate your emotions, be patient with yourself. Because as I think the theme today has also been, change takes time, but every single little bit helps. And if you commit to this path of self-improvement, then you're not only working toward a healthier relationship, but also it is a more fulfilling life.

I promise you, when you can sit with your own discomfort, do a little self-confrontation and show up different and emotionally consistent, turns out you're a pretty fun hang. And that is a strength. It is not a weakness. And man, while I'm ending with a bunch of cliches, it is never too late to truly start being the best version of yourself. So thank you so much for joining me today.

I would love to hear your stories. I would love to hear your examples, your growth, even if there are things that you are starting to wake up to and recognize in yourself or in your relationship. Reach out, send those to contact at tonyoverbay.com. Please sign up. Music.