Live Q&A with Tony and Sydney - Navigating Mental Health: Highly Sensitive People, Narcissism, Emotional Immaturity, ADHD, and “Good Therapy”

Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special bonus episode of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. And my daughter, Sydney, and I, or my daughter, McKinley, and I often do live question and answers on, it's been TikTok until TikTok was taken down for a brief moment. Now it's back up, but we've also been doing them on Instagram or on YouTube. I would love to have each and every one of you join us on a live.

But for those that can't, we do air the lives typically the following day on my Virtual Couch YouTube channel. The lives can be a lot of fun interacting with one or both of my daughters and with people that are on the lives and they are asking questions. So today I want to provide you with the audio of one of these lives. Again, if you want to see the video, you can go over to my Virtual Couch YouTube channel.

And if you have questions you would like answered, please feel free to reach out to me at contact at tonyoverbay.com or go to my newly updated website, tonyoverbay.com, and you can submit your questions through the contact form on the website. Without any further delay, let me provide you with this audio recording of a live question and answer that my daughter Sydney and I did on TikTok Live just a couple of weeks ago. Music.

Okay i need somebody to jump online so we can see if the microphone is working because i am not quite sure if it is working yet or not so uh whoever's on here first i can't wait to uh can't wait to hear you tell me said i've gone live i don't know for sure if the microphone's working or not i i tested it yeah okay you can check it out see see if it is or not they are letting they are notifying. Okay. First person here.

I'm saying hi. Tell me if you can hear me. Somebody give me a little bit of feedback. We're testing a new microphone and I just need to know if you can hear me. Anybody? Testing. One, two, three. Looking for the first. Yes. Thank you. Not a good name. Number three. We are live. My name is Tony. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I want all of your questions.

I want your therapy related questions, although I will not be. is it good okay okay why do you act so surprised says producer sydney right off camera but i want your questions i want to talk tonight we're going to talk about attachment theory we're going to do a little bit of am i overreacting because there's some gold on reddit semi am i overreacting did i say am i reacting it's fair to react but am i overreacting so we're going to check that out and then a lot of stuff on attachment theory

it's today is the 12th so by now i am very curious this is a hack bit for us. Thank you, Little Nerd. Look at that heart on my head. I'm curious if anybody is still keeping...

Their new year's resolutions. If anybody decided just not even to do new year's resolutions this year. And I have very strong opinions on this as a practicing mental health professional for over 20 years now, new year's resolutions. Why do they only last a little while? And I think there's a lot of reasons. And one of those is people set resolutions that they think that they are supposed to set. Like they want to start running or they want to lose weight or they want to,

I don't know. What are, have you done new year's resolutions before Sid, honestly? Just this year, honestly. Okay. I'm painfully, painfully dirt sober, you guys. Okay. If you can hear Sydney. Oh, Nonchalant King is here. Okay. Yeah. I haven't done those in a while. Sydney said she is painfully, how did you put that? Painfully? Dirt sober. Dirt sober. And I'm very proud of you. Like a newborn baby. Like a newborn baby. Like just a newborn child.

But she's very sober. And we will talk about that at some point. I can't wait. But so many people, though, set a New Year's resolution and it's something that they really don't want to do. And this fits into one of the things I think is so fascinating. It's the concept of a socially compliant goal.

It's something that you set a goal to do because you think that that is what you're supposed to do. So a lot of people that I work with will say, I'm going to start running. But if they hate running, then that would fit into this socially compliant goal. Or it's something that I think I'm supposed to do. Or people think that I should do that. Instead of, now, if you are living a life of socially compliant goals, you're normal. You're human.

That's a good thing. but most likely you're not very motivated to stay on top of those things because you don't really want to do them anyway. Now, if you have a goal, if you set a goal of fitness, then you can do that any way you want. I have had people that have used weighted hula hoops, have done belly dancing, have done high intensity interval training, but they are not runners. So you have to find the thing that really actually matters to you.

Seems pretty obvious, but for some reason it's not. So when people set these new year's resolutions that are things they think they're supposed to, then their motivation is weak and ineffective because it goes against their whole process of just becoming. And now if you are setting a bunch of socially compliant goals, now I want you to learn one of my next favorite words in therapy, and that is experiential avoidance, which means that if I'm already not excited

about the thing that I think I'm supposed to do. Then I'm going to find everything else to do other than that thing. So experiential avoidance is things like playing on my phone, playing games, watching videos on Netflix or on TikTok or any of those things, because I'll do that for a minute and then I'll get to the thing that I actually don't want to do. So if you want to have success in setting real goals, they have to be things that actually matter to you. Any thoughts, Sid?

No, not yet. Not yet. Okay. And then I'll just give you one other that I think is really interesting. And this is one where let's say I've had clients before and I have one right now that said he's going to read 10 books this year. I think if we were like betting the over under, I'd say he gets through about two books. That is a bit judgmental. I'll own that.

But one of the better ways to set a goal is to then say, okay, let's say he has a value. You set your goal based off your value. So if he has a value of knowledge, then books are the vehicle. So he is going to read to gain knowledge. So in that scenario, then he might set a goal of reading daily. Now, how long? I don't know. Totally up to him. But if he says, I'm going to read 10 books and all of a sudden he hits August or September and

he's only on book two, what's he probably going to do? He's going to say, you know what? Next year, January 1 of next year, I'll reset that goal of 10 books. So it might go against the grain a little bit because people like to do these measurable goals. And if that works for you, keep on doing it.

But if you are one who says, I'm going to do, I don't know, I'm going to do 100 push-ups a day and then by the end of the day, most every day, you're at 25 or you haven't even done them, then most likely you're going to kick that can down the road till tomorrow. And then this is that deal where by Wednesday or Thursday of the week, you'll say, you know what, I'm just not going to worry about it this weekend and Monday, I'm on it on Monday.

Then Monday rolls around or then all of a sudden it's the middle of the month. Then you're saying next month, next month. That's when I'm going to change my life. And then you hit June, July at that point. You know what? Next year. And so we're just really good at kicking that can down the road over and over and over again. And pretty soon that is the pattern. That is the habit. Okay. So I hope you're getting your questions in. Sid's going to tell me if

there are any questions that we, and we can answer those. But right now. Everybody like the live. Okay. Everyone like the live, please.

If you're a good person thank you i know we're testing it right now we're gonna see everyone's color we are see that's where i need you on here doing some nice just some vibe something like that you could curse them with a pox or something like that if they don't what did you say no that's probably passive aggressive that's actually straight aggressive is what i was being sounded like a very old man there's a lot of old man they're in the podcast so we have a podcast

coming out the next day or two on attachment theory and i noticed on there that at one point i was saying something like I don't give two cents about something and I felt like I was in the 20s. I guess we're literally in the 20s. When I say the 20s, I think of the 1920s, like 100 years ago. Not that I was around then. I was not around in the 1920s. No, I was not. Okay. I want to do a little warm up here while people are joining and then get

your mental health related questions in. It can be around. So, I do a lot of work around emotional immaturity, narcissistic traits and tendencies. I do a lot of couples work. I work with anxiety. I work with depression and we can answer any of your questions about any of those things what should i do if i think i have adhd and have had it since i was a kid oh josh safe space safe space i am a

card carrying riddle intake and member of the adhd club and same with sydney my daughter i got my diagnosis when i was 46 years old syd got yours at i don't know a year or so ago yeah how old are you I don't know. 22. 22. So, it is never too early, never too late to get a good old ADHD diagnosis. One of the things that I would highly recommend is there's a book called ADHD 2.0. The authors are Hallowell and Rattay.

And I also refer to that as my Bible, my holy scriptures, because ADHD 2.0 is just a game changer because it talks so much about the concepts around that we talk about it with attention deficit, but really it's, they want to rename it VAST, Variable Attention Stimulus trait because it's this whole, I don't even like calling it a disorder, but it's, it's paradoxical. So there are some things, if I like it, I am hyper-focused on it. And if I don't, not really for me.

And it also introduces some of the concepts I love when we talk about ADHD, that there are two, two timeframes that we get things done now and not now. So I'll either do it right now, or I'm not going to do it now. And so it doesn't get done until now I have to do it right now. And, and I don't know if that resonates. I know that one, you would agree with that one. Yeah. And there's just so many other things there. ADHD 2.0 talks about rejection sensitivity.

There's a concept called rejection sensitive dysphoria that's fascinating that any of us that have ADHD have been told no in some form or fashion. The belief is anywhere from 10 to 20,000 times more than the average person. By the time there, I think it's 12 years old. And it isn't always just no, but it could be not now, champ. Hey, not now, bud. Hold on. Wait a minute. So, we're continually just getting this message of, we're a lot. We're a lot to handle.

And so, not right now. And so, you start to develop this anticipatory rejection. It's almost like, man, I know that I'm a lot. I know that this person's already going to be annoyed with me. So, I'm going in anticipating rejection. So, then if somebody does say, I don't think right now, we're like, okay, no, I should never have said anything. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. It's my bad. So, that rejection sensitivity is a big part of that.

And then also, this is a really fascinating one, is apparently most, what do they call them now, neurotypical humans. And I guess I'm now, have you heard the term neuro-spicy? Oh, that's weird. It is. But I think that's what we are, I think. Okay, maybe you can be. There's neurodivergent, which I think was one of those movies. Anyway, I digress. That is what ADHD looks like to me. Where was I going with that? There's another question whenever you're done with

your thoughts. That might be a while. No, okay. I will finish this one, though. it was about, oh, that those normal, normal, I think I'm going to be normal. The ones that don't have ADHD, when they're doing a task, they just do the task. So, there's this little teeter-totter in our brain that is like about thinking, doing, thinking, doing. So, apparently when some people are doing things, they're not thinking about

everything else. Or when they're thinking about things, they don't need to be doing anything else. But to the ADHD person, what a wonderful gift we have where that little teeter-totter has broken. So now when we are doing something, we're probably thinking about things. And if we think about something that seems a lot more cool than what we're doing, then I think I'll go do that. And then when I'm doing that, I'll think about other things.

And that's why the book that spoke to me the most here, I'm talking about ADHD 2.0, but when my kids were little was If You Give a Mouse a Cookie, one of the greatest books ever written, because it just talks about going from one thing to the next, to the next, to the next. And it is just absolutely fascinating. Okay, next question. I did not know you were married. It's a dad joke. Is this your water that was on the ground? I don't know.

I'm gonna drink it. Who else would it be? We're the only two people here. Okay. Is it open? Yeah, that's mine. Don't drink that. Okay. Wait, was it not open? I don't know. This is important. Okay. My husband of 40 years just served me with divorce papers with no warning. Wow. I'm in shock. That really is. And so, all jokes aside, I'm a real practicing marriage and

family therapist, and I do a lot of work with couples. And that concept happens often where somebody is blindsided by someone telling them that they are done. And unfortunately, see, and I know I don't know your situation, and here's where I'm not giving legitimate marriage therapy, but I would love it if he had the courage to then approach you and express the things that maybe he is not happy with in the relationship. You won't tell me why.

Okay. So that's now we're into the world of emotional immaturity. Yeah. So one of the most, it is one of the most difficult things here is, and, and this can be really, especially after 40 years of marriage, but man, I would love it if you didn't have to beg somebody to love you or convince somebody to tell you the reasons, because that's a him issue.

And if we really start to dig into this concept of differentiation and what differentiation is, it's this battle that we have to build a connection with somebody while maintaining our autonomy, our own sense of self. And that is the dance that we go into in relationships. And so, it can be a very beautiful dance when people are trying to both become more emotionally mature.

But unfortunately, one of the fascinating things about being differentiated is you could do everything in your power to try and save a relationship, show up better in a relationship, but you can't do it for him. And so, if he is just saying, you know what, I don't even want to deal with it, unfortunately, that's a him issue and it hurts and I can't even imagine what that would feel like.

And oftentimes, and this is just advice, this is not marriage therapy because I would need so many more details for this. The more that you recognize you are okay, that you deserve an answer and that it's not a very mature thing that he's doing by not providing you with any information, then there isn't a lot that you can do with that.

Because we talk about in the world of the emotionally immature, and I highly recommend go do a deep dive on my podcast, Waking Up to Narcissism, because on there, I give these five rules of interacting with an emotionally immature narcissistic person. The first one is what I call raise your emotional baseline. And that's all about self-care, because if you're about to go through something pretty heavy, you really need to be in a good space to be able to react as best as you can.

So self-care is not selfish and it doesn't have to, you don't have to go run a marathon or get a mani-pedi, although that's fine. But it's really starting to just know, dream, think, listen to podcasts, come on a therapist's live TikTok, read books, interact with or talk to friends that have been through this, but start to try to do everything you can to help yourself. The second point that I talk about is get your PhD in gaslighting.

And all All that means is that know that you're not crazy if you're asking somebody, hey, I would really, I think it would be fair for me to understand more about why you're serving me with divorce papers after 40 years. And if he's like, you should know already. No, you shouldn't. That's, you're not a mind reader and he has to have the courage to really have these adult conversations.

The third thing I talk about is getting out of unproductive conversations because if you're trying to beg him to tell you, then he all of a sudden has power. And unfortunately, the immature love power. The fourth thing is learn to set boundaries and know the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum.

An ultimatum is you better tell me a boundary is if you don't tell me, then I'm going to leave the conversation or I'm going to, I'm going to take a break right now because you don't want to be begging somebody to tell you because again, they take that one up position. They feel like they have the power, but here's why I did this whole thing. The fifth one is you will never be the one that will give him the aha moment or the epiphany of, oh my gosh.

Then he says, you're right. I must now tell you. I would hope that he would have already told you. So, the more that you try to beg it out of him, the more he sees what buttons he can push to get you to react. Because the immature just needs somebody else to react with. Oh, there's Kelly, right? Okay. Hey, Kelly. Needs somebody to react with in order to just know that they exist. So, I'll kind of leave it there, but feel free. Continue to ask questions tonight. Yeah.

As someone who just got like halfway ghosted a little bit ago. You're talking about you? Yeah. Yes. Yes. No response is a response. And it's a very loud response. It's even louder than a response. It really is. And I think that's what can be difficult about having somebody that you just thought 40 years is a long time and you deserve communication. You deserve for him to try to express what his frustrations are.

Now, I don't know you, and I'm just going to put this out there for the sake of content, if that makes any sense, that I will say that as a marriage therapist that I see probably 15 to 20 couples a week, sometimes when people do feel like they are completely blindsided, and I'm not saying this is in your situation, but when they feel completely blindsided and they come in for couples therapy, because I think that you absolutely,

if you want to try to make things work, you need most likely a professional that's going to help you have a voice and help you really be able to express yourself. But I'll have couples in my office, somebody will say they're blindsided, and then they'll express why they're frustrated in their relationship. The other partner that's just now hearing this news will say, why didn't you ever tell me?

And sometimes as the couple's therapist, I'll almost raise my hand and say, you know, I'll take that one. Most likely they maybe have tried to tell you in the past, but you've maybe just said, yeah, that's not real. That's really not what's happening here. So we do have to be able to sit with some discomfort and hear what our partner's going through. But when I go back to what it means to become differentiated is that is a them

thing. they can offer me this suggestion of what they think is going wrong in the relationship. And hopefully it's my job to self-reflect, self-confront. Is do I feel like there's truth in what they're saying? Because if somebody's trying to tell me how I'm thinking or how I'm feeling, that is adorable. I do want to hear it, but ultimately I get to be the one that is in charge of how I'm thinking and how I'm feeling.

But I want somebody else's feedback, but I have to be able to take that feedback in and then say, is there truth in that? And if so, okay, thank you. And I will do everything I can to work to become the best version of myself. Yeah. Next question. Yep. I've fallen in love with another woman and I'm currently

married i'm very confused okay this is a it's did you say t i know what that means.

Thank you first of all i'm taking the sweater off and i think i gotta turn the fan on are you hot, no oh well you can turn the fan on okay let me do that what was the question falling in love with another woman and i'm married i'm married and he's confused okay my wonderful producer daughter and assistant sydney will you please have the task to keep me on track because i want to go on a tiny tangent, but it's for a good reason with this.

So, I will from time to time have a client that will come in and tell me what exactly what you just said and I'm grateful for that. Well, where they will say, I'm in a relationship and I'm falling for someone else. Because if you can acknowledge that, then what we would start to take a look at is what is it about that other person that you find exciting? And are you feeling seen? Are you feeling understood? Are you feeling like this person is desiring you?

Because those are most likely things that you must not be having in your current marriage, your relationship. Back to it takes a lot of courage to be known, to have your needs be seen. Then what I try to help that person do is find a way to communicate that to their spouse. Now, it's a lot easier when you've got maybe a professional in the middle that's trying to help do that. And recently, I had a situation like this where it was a woman who had mentioned

that she was feeling this way with someone that she worked with. And she told me that. And then we brought her husband in and said, okay, hey, before you just respond and say, well, fine, she can go be with them or anything like that. She's telling you this because she wants this kind of a relationship with you. And what we identified was that the emotional relationship that she was having with this other person, they just shared a lot of things back and forth throughout

the day. And they had a lot of common interests. And so, this is a great example, and it's not the norm, but the husband then that came in, then he said, okay, that I can understand because that isn't, those aren't my strong suits. And so they're working very hard right now on having these shared experiences, trading texts throughout the day. If she feels this desire to share something with this other person,

she's sharing it with her husband. And he knows that's a cue for him to be curious because when you're looking outside of the relationship, most likely it's for something that you are not getting in your own relationship. And I will tell you, it's a pretty normal part of being a couple that you get to a point in the relationship where you only talk about the things that are pretty easy to talk about. And we are so afraid of contention that we avoid any kind of tension whatsoever.

So you need to learn how to sit with your own discomfort and then have these conversations that are pretty difficult because that's the only chance you're going to give your partner a chance to show up different. And you're showing up different now. Does that mean that they will say, oh my gosh, thank you so much for letting me know that you're thinking of leaving the relationship because of something that I'm not offering you?

Probably not. That's where I think a good couples therapist comes into play. But I hope you can see the concept that I'm talking about here. What are you seeing in this other relationship? And do you want that? Do you want that in your current relationship? And if so, find a way to have the courage to express that. Okay. Okay. Do people with ADHD get over attached to their partner? Mm-hmm.

Really? Okay. Well, here's why. Here's why. Say that like I haven't gotten over attached to every partner. So, okay. So, I'm going to make a couple of assumptions here. And that's actually, okay. Thank you, whoever just asked that question. Because that is, that leads a little bit into the podcast that's coming out probably tomorrow or Tuesday, they're talking about attachment styles, and you can change your attachment style.

So, most people that have ADHD have more of an anxious attachment style, and that anxious attachment is, I am so afraid of abandonment that I will do whatever it takes to keep this person, and also, I'm so insecure or afraid this person will leave that I need to check every time I can. Is everything okay? Are we good? Like, hey, do you like me? Do you still like me? Because it's been like 10 minutes and you haven't expressed your desire for me yet. So, you must be getting tired of me.

I must have done something wrong. And so, you continually go to your partner and seek reassurance. So, does that make sense? So, then you are going to show up a little bit more clingy, little, a lot more clingy. And this is why most relationship dynamics, I want to say, devolve into this anxious and avoidant pattern because they find each other. So, the more anxious somebody is and the more avoidant that person becomes and it becomes just this kind of push and pull in the relationship.

What's really a challenge is that trying to work and help the person who is anxious, and I'm such an anxious, attached person, to learn how to sit with my own discomfort and learn how to validate myself that, okay, I am okay. I don't need to continually seek reassurance. But one of the most difficult things about that is, so I'm over here just being and doing. I'm good. But then the avoidant is still going to be okay. So it's not like that necessarily causes them to lean in more.

And so that's where the work really begins. And it's hard because as the anxious, the more work that you do, then I like Josh. Sounds like it's safe to say I'm undiagnosed ADHD. So many of us do, Josh. It really is. Okay, now my ADHD train wants to just jump right there. And let's talk about ADHD medication because yeah, did I finish the last thought though? Yeah. Anxious attachment for the win. We'll get back to the anxious and avoidant because I've got a lot of things

about attachment styles that we can get to. And we also said at the beginning, we're going to do it. Am I overreacting? Because there's a really good one there too. Also someone said, could you explain gaslighting? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, I can.

So gaslighting is a, it's a psychological manipulation tactic. And it's basically somebody trying to convince you that your reality is untrue. And if you go back to the history of the word, I think it really helps you understand the concept. And it goes back to a movie, I think in 1938, 1941. I was just a child. Thank you for the laugh. I wasn't born yet at that point. But the movie, they had gas lamps.

And so, then there was a guy, if I remember correctly, and he was trying to make his wife feel crazy. Every day, he would turn the gas light down a little bit more and a little bit more. And she would say, is it getting darker? And he's like, no, it's bright as day in here. So, that's the concept around it. And so, gaslighting is when you want to make somebody feel crazy.

The most simple examples are, and I hear them often. I was going to say all the time, we're not going to do all or nothing statements, but where if I said, Hey, I'm going to stop on the way home and grab dinner. And then I just show up at home and my wife says, Hey, where's dinner? And I'm like, I don't know. Where is it? And she says, but you said you were going to stop and get dinner on the way home. And I'm like, no, I didn't.

And she literally heard that. And that's why she didn't get anything ready because she was waiting for me to come home with dinner. And I'm saying, I didn't do it. That isn't me. And so you can see where there can be a little bit of a, almost like there can be a malicious version of that, where I need her to feel crazy. But gaslighting, and this is a big thing, gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism.

So, those who gaslight just reflexively, impulsively, it's because when they were kids, they just knew they could not be in trouble. Because if they got in trouble, then they got in trouble. And they would fear that in essence, from a little kid brain, that they're going to get booted out of the household. So, if their parent said, who knocked over my drink? And none of the kids fess up to it, now we're in the world of gaslighting.

Or the first one that they point at the little baby because he can't talk yet. He did it. And because they've learned, oh, okay, childhood defense mechanism. So now my parent gets mad at one of the other, my brother or sister, but I'm safe. Nobody's going to get mad at me. So you can see where then if that's been happening since you were a kid, then anytime.

So even back to this example, if I really did say I'd stop and get dinner, but then all of a sudden I'd come home and I forgot, maybe because of ADHD, instead of me going, oh, my bad, I forgot. I can go back out and get it. Then if my wife is to say, why didn't you bring it home? What do I feel like? Oh, that feels like I'm in trouble. And if I go right back to my childhood, then I can't be in trouble or she'll boot me out of the house. So, I never said that.

And so, people can just gaslight just so just reflexively, just impulsively to alleviate their own discomfort, to get them out of the discomfort. And it can be maddening because if you are the one that heard this, saw this or whatever that was, then you're going to think, okay, maybe I am crazy because I swear I saw, I swear I heard him say it, literally say it, but he seems so certain of himself that he didn't do that. So it's interesting. Yeah.

Oh, Josh, can I repeat? Yeah. So I say that gaslighting, so gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism. And so what happens is if a kid, and this gets deeper, this gets bigger into this because I think we're just now trying to figure out how to deal with our emotions. And as a parent, even a good parent will say to a kid, hey, don't worry about something, or it's not a big deal, or rub a little dirt in it, or pick yourself up, or it doesn't really hurt, to whatever it is.

And so you're telling that kid your feelings and your emotions are not real. They're wrong. And so then what do we do? We end up going through life feeling like, okay, if I'm feeling an emotion, it must be wrong, because I'm used to it being wrong, and I need somebody else to tell me that I'm okay.

And so when you start from that place, now you've got a kid that if they are, they don't feel safe saying, I knocked over your drink because they know that they have not been, it hasn't been modeled in their home that it's okay to make a mistake even. And it's okay to get, yeah, it's okay to get something wrong. It's okay to feel bad. It's okay to have done something that frustrates my parent because that's not been okay.

So then the kid then is going to do whatever they can to avoid that discomfort. And so, that's where the pathological lying, compulsive lying, gaslighting comes into play. So, gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism that keeps the kid from getting in trouble. And if they're really good at it and they hold their ground, then eventually the parent just kind of moves on and then they got out of it and they didn't have to take ownership or accountability of something.

So, one of the best things you can do as an adult is learn that by saying, my bad, or oh, I did do that, the world keeps on spinning and your relationship typically continues to evolve. And it's much better to take ownership of something and then learn that, okay, it's part of just being a human than to just, that wasn't me. I didn't do it. Or a lot of times we project things onto people too.

So if, go back to this example of if I came home and I didn't pick up dinner and my wife thinks that she heard me say it, well, let's say that then I say, I didn't say that. And then she's like, you really did. Or maybe she would even say, I actually happen to have it recorded here. I don't know, the smart speaker recorded it. And then I hear it. And then I say, well, I just thought you were going to remind me on the way home. So, I still don't want to

take ownership of it. I'm still going to project it off to somebody else. And that's very, very emotionally immature.

What does ADHD medicine actually do to our minds? Yeah, it's really, do you know? Saves my life. Saves my life, I know. It's a game changer. In the book, ADHD 2.0, it talks about how the medication is, it's one of the most effective medications for a mental health disorder that is out there. So you've got anxiety and depression meds that do operate with a higher efficiency than placebo.

But then you've got an ADHD medication that when given to somebody that has ADHD, it can be up to 80% of people find a pretty immediate relief. ADHD medications, and I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm a marriage and family therapist. So, I'm just saying about my experience that I've had and just from studying the ADHD medications, that they are not addictive. That's one of the, for the most part. And I want to say that that's been my experience in most of the people that I work with.

And they don't have to build up in your system. You don't have to take them for weeks at a time. I really haven't taken anything. I haven't taken one dose today, but you don't have to take them all the time and they're out of your system within a few hours, depending on if you're taking like an extended release or an immediate release. But we, we lack dopamine. And so we're constantly seeking a dopamine dump, a bump of dopamine, which is why we do impulsive things.

Why we do, yeah, very impulsive, just very in the moment things. And so it causes like addiction too, right?

Yeah. Let me pull that up. Yeah. Yeah. So we get our dopamine through a lot of addictive things as well whether it's food or i don't want to get like shadow band tree or you can say the s-e-g-g-s s-e-g-g-s i can say that one right segs yeah because a lot of people that yeah adhd comes with a pretty high incident of addiction and i'm going to find something from the adhd 2.0 book that talks about this because i think it's very worth talking about i'm going to turn to the medication section okay

yeah please josh said i asked because i'm a little afraid that adhd medication will alter my personality i heard that all the time i did too that i don't think that's true at all i think maybe that's for like maybe if you're misdiagnosed i don't know maybe it's everyone's different but i really did not experience that for me it like made my personality like whole again and i felt more confident and i felt like I could say what I wanted to say and like.

I don't know. I just didn't have that experience personally. So, and let me, let me, I think there's a good point here too, Josh, where when I was working with people that were, that were getting their own ADHD diagnosis as adults and they were starting to take medication and I was watching them change. Then I call them the yeah, buts.

So, whenever we're going to do something new, your brain is, your brain is a don't get killed device and it just wants to continue to do the things that it knows are safe, even if those are not things that are going to cause you to thrive as a human being. So, when you think about doing something new that could change your life for the better, your brain is going to say, yeah, but maybe it won't. Yeah, but maybe something else will happen.

And so those yeah, buts are what kind of keeps us stuck where we are because your brain, it does seek certainty. So when I talk about that too, oh yeah, and real nerd also tricky because if you have the right medication and the right dose, it's great. And sometimes people do have to experiment around with dosage and medication. But when I was looking at taking ADHD medication for the first time,

and I laugh about this so much. I've never had political ambitions in my life, but I found one of the first yeah buts was, yeah, but what if I ever run for office and they have to look at my medical records? And I just thought, okay, I don't want to run for office. And I don't know if that would even matter if they saw Ritalin on my medical records. People who run for office have done worse, let me tell you. That's right. But I just think it's interesting to look at the yeah buts.

Yeah but, and you'll hear, yeah but I'll be addicted forever. Yeah but, I don't want to take these things forever. And this might be a good time for me to just, so I have a theory. I call it the emotional baseline theory, and I won't maybe get into all of that right now, but let me just say that I really think that when people are feeling down, their baseline of emotions are low.

They have a hard time reaching the tools they need for success, whether it's they have a hard time meditating or then when they feel so down, they don't want to go to therapy or they don't want to try anything new. And so, you have to bump that emotional baseline up to get to a point where you can reach the tools that you need. And a lot of times I'm working with people that. They think they know what they need, but they just can't access those tools.

And so, I think medication can really help bump a baseline up, whether it is an antidepressant or an anti-anxiety medication or an ADHD medication. And then once you raise that emotional baseline to a level where now you are starting to function more like yourself, now you can access the tools. Now, maybe I'm going to stay a little more focused. I'm going to finish studying or books that I need for class. Or I'm going to, for me, I started getting my podcast out.

I updated a website. I finished a book. I did all these things once. And so then at that point, I remember telling myself, all right, then my baseline is going to be high. And if I want to, then I can get off the medication. But now I know what those tools look like. But then when you're there at that point, then I just said Ritalin for life, which would be a really good screen name, right?

I'm sure it's already taken. But at that point, then I, why would I get off the medication when it's literally changed my life? So I love what you're saying, Josh, about, I think one of the yeah, buts, that's the long winded way for me to get there. One of the yeah, buts is going to be yeah, but it might change my personality. It might, but it might change your personality in a good way. And didn't you say that when you took your medication at first, didn't you clean your room?

This is a great story. Tell that because your room was a little bit of a... Don't say words that would get us cesspool cesspool. Okay. And then you were medicated. And what happened? I just, I always just thought that I was like horrifically messy. Like I just, I thought that that was just who I was. Yeah. And then once I started taking medications, I've been so like cleanly ever since then. And then it's so nice and I love it. And it is like a part of me.

And it's just like, I was never able to even know what it felt like to access that without the medication. Yeah. And so, yeah, I like what you said. If you're scared, it's going to alter your personality. You can always stop. And for me, even just doing like having the medication for like a week. Yeah. And then stopping it for a little bit. Just like you said, just being able to feel what it's like to have a brain basically helped me when I was off the medication, too. Yeah.

I don't really know how, but it just really did. It just it changed a lot because before the medication, I just again, And I just did not even know what I was missing out on at all. Like, you don't know what you don't know. Right. Hey, well said. Yeah. Hey, Cooper Ferguson is here and it says, invite Coop Ferg to join live as a guest. We've never hit that except for the one time early on where we had those people from a different place. Cooper, I might hit invite and you're a guest.

Okay. Are there other questions or keep those ADHD questions coming? Yeah. What doctor do I go to for this ADHD thing? Yeah. Yeah, these days, and this is like always a fun time to run through what the various things are. So you've got me, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, LMFT, or you might hear like a LCSW, licensed clinical social worker, or LPCC, licensed professional clinical counselor, and we can't prescribe medication now.

And we had to get a master's degree and get about 3000 hours of practice, so to speak, before getting our license. Next up, you've got a clinical psychologist. They went and got their master's and then their PhD in psychology, and they can administer psychological tests for the court, things like that. They also can't prescribe medication. So you actually have to go to a psychiatrist.

And a psychiatrist is somebody that went to medical school, they did the rounds, they delivered babies, they did all those sort of things, but then they settled on a specialty of mental health. And especially these days, the controlled substances like a stimulant, like an ADHD medication, most likely are going to need to be prescribed by a psychiatrist.

Now, depending on your insurance, your doctor, I've had some clients that have been able to get an ADHD medication from their general practitioner. And so you need to just go start the ball rolling. For me personally, I had to go have an assessment with another therapist and then I saw a doctor and then I took a assessment test and then I saw a psychiatrist and it was a lot of work, but then boy, was it worth it. Yeah. I'm on ADHD medication, but do you have tips for emotional regulation?

Yeah. Okay. I like that question a lot. And because this is what's really good for that is that the medication. So what it does is that, yeah, it gives you that dopamine that you need to be able to maintain a focus, but you still need to have, I think it's really good. Really important to have still a purpose or things that you need to do now that you have your, you know, you've got your opportunity to stay focused on something.

Because I will know, I will notice that when I take medication and then I come into my office and if I have to write, I'm working on a new book project that's due this summer. If I have a deadline, I need to get a chapter done. I really need to point toward that. Or if I'm going to record a podcast, I really need to be able to take that medication, have everything lined up and then really just be in that moment in the zone and record my podcast because you can easily.

You have your medication kick in and watch an incredible hour of YouTube videos, or I really play online bingo so well when my medication kicks in. And so when you do the things that maybe don't cause you to feel still good as doing the things that you would like to be doing in your life, I think that can cause, it can cause a little bit of emotional dysregulation at times because then we beat ourselves up for not taking advantage of the fact that now we have this medication, this diagnosis.

And then I also, and I don't know if maybe you were talking about this as well, but I think that one of those concepts that can be tough too is that there is a bit of a letdown. Some people call it like the Adderall crash when the medication wears off because there's a few things that'll happen. Most ADHD stimulants are appetite suppressants as well. So, your appetite may come back with veracity and then you may also find yourself pretty fatigued.

And so, that can start to feel like a pretty up and down roller coaster. But I think once you are aware of it and you accept that fact, then you can eat little meals throughout the day so you don't have that big crash. Or you can make sure that you are not taking a dose anywhere close to night. And so then by the time you hit the evening, then you accept the fact that it has been an amazing day.

And now you allow yourself to just relax and connect with friends and meditate and all those wonderful things. Is this why caffeine really gets me locked in and I get stuff done? I don't take bets. So, it's a good question, and I would recommend doing a little AI, a little chat GPT with this, but the caffeine hits a different area of the brain.

Caffeine really does this thing. It blocks the, I think it's called adenosine, but there's a part, these little things that are heading toward your brain saying sleep. And so, caffeine goes in there and runs a little hijack. And so, you may be able to get more things done because you aren't as sleepy. And a lot of times people that have more success with caffeine, it's maybe they are people that have a little bit more direction or purpose.

And so, a lot of times somebody that truly, and here's what's fascinating. So, somebody that really has ADHD, we also lack executive functioning skills and you can't just try harder. And so, it's not just a matter of, hey, I'm getting sleepy or tired or I just didn't finish something. It's the fact that your thoughts are bouncing around like a ping pong ball all over the place.

And so you're going to do this until you do this until you do this and so then when you have enough dopamine in your brain now you can hyper focus and lock in on a project and actually finish it but that's why i say it still has to be a project that you like so caffeine didn't really help me much i enjoyed caffeine because i think that the adhd brain is running on overdrive all the time and so then when you finally do stop i don't know if you fall asleep no

you don't i literally stayed up till 6 a.m last night i know right i had to come in and check on sid because i was like hey i went and looked just to make sure and i thought you were like twitching your leg oh no i thought you were just lying right there i was just gonna let you have that oh no i really no but so for me personally then oh and yeah arlen's saying great question i saw that one scroll by there real quick did you see the one about said about a non-stimulants um i did not okay so

there are non-stimulant medications and and this is a great this is something you and i were talking about whether and you didn't even know that we were talking about this the other day it's the thing where I was telling you that it's interesting because I've realized I like the feeling when the medication kicks in because to me, and I say this often, it feels like hope.

To me, it doesn't feel like anxiety. And there's a belief that if you don't really have ADHD and you take a stimulant medication, then it will cause more anxiety. Now you will be able to stay up all night. You might be able to complete a project.

That's why they're study drugs that when people are taking them off off label but if you have adhd then it just it provides you it does when it kicks in it's let's do this let's go but it's not okay i'm wired now i gotta go i will say though yeah you also have anxiety yeah i also have anxiety it can it's like it can increase your anxiety i totally can so i just don't want people to think oh i'm getting anxiety that means i don't have adhd because i very much know

that i have a good point well okay can i like speak to that too for a second is that I think one of the other things that's really important is. And there's a book, it's by Daniel Amen, who's an amazing psychiatrist in the Amen Clinic, and he's done a lot of brain scans. He's got amazing TED Talk about what he's learned after 100,000 brain scans.

But I cannot think of the name of his book, but there's one and it talks, he goes through all the things that you need to do to set yourself up for success with ADHD. And a lot of those are diet related. Are people eating enough? Are they staying hydrated enough? Are they getting

the rest that they need. Because if you get those things, you know? Totally. A lot of times it's when I'm not drinking enough water or I haven't eaten enough. Yeah, there's another question. Okay. Well, I think that do we answer that one?

Okay, there are non stimulant drugs. Oh, and I think we're just to finish that off. What has been fascinating to me is if I'm being completely honest with myself, there, I, I don't know if I would, I don't want to say I would want a non stimulant drug because I was alluding to the fact that I like that, that feeling of hope.

But if I was going to accomplish things regardless, and I didn't have to feel that I didn't need to feel that feeling of hope, I could see where a non-stimulant medication for ADHD would be incredible because it's doing what it needs to do. It's giving yourself the neurochemicals that you need, the neurotransmitters that you need, but you just aren't feeling the jolt or the hope. And so there are, and I do recommend those. I have had no experience with those

myself. I might want to look up on that one. For real? Yeah. I just don't like it. Sometimes my medication makes my heart beat. Okay. Because Because I have anxiety, my anxiety attaches to that. Yes, yeah. So I could maybe see, I could see how that could be helpful.

And I wonder though, what would be fascinating is if you were able to get, I remember one of your sisters had a psychiatrist one time that said that I won't even really prescribe or talk to you about anything until you get, I think she said like 10 hours, 10 days in a row of eight hours of sleep. That doesn't happen. I know, but I thought that was, I liked that.

I thought it was really, I thought it was like, I thought it was like really good advice though, because I will, I don't sleep a lot but I know that when there have been weekends or the three-day weekends where I have slept all three days there are times where I've really noticed that I do feel a lot more kind of present without my medication so I do think that's fascinating yeah what are good ways to increase your window of tolerance mine has become

a peephole oh that's a window of tolerance by the way great name for an alternative band okay like actually that's hard yeah when you go see a window of tolerance no but i can see you going to see them okay what is that i can see your mom going to see them. Cause that's my wife. Cause she'd be going with me. So I did there. Anyway, the window of tolerance is a, so I have so many thoughts about this. I would love to know more. And I don't know if you're still here.

Oh, the name of the book was ADHD 2.0 by Hallowell and Rattay. But if the person who asked that question, I just, yeah, the therapist at me just, I want to know more because the window of tolerance, a lot of times it's when people are starting to feel unseen, unheard in their relationship. So their tolerance, there's the concept of trauma almost the body keeps the

score. So, if you are starting to get very annoyed with the people around you or in your relationship, then rather than beat yourself up or, you know, what's wrong with me, sometimes that's your body that's trying to tell you something. So, it might be trying to say, look, you are not being heard or understood here. Or you're doing the majority of the work in your home and not getting any validation for it. There's no reciprocity for it.

So, that tolerance might be shrinking because your body is saying, this is not fair. You need to speak up about it. You need to do something about it. Or you might be in a job where you are feeling like, okay, I want more. I want more out of life. I want more from this job. And so first look at that window of tolerance as your body keeping the score of it trying to tell you something.

And we want you to start really first listen and key into your gut feeling or your instinct, your visceral reaction. And first take a look at that with curiosity. Ooh, check that out. My tolerance is decreasing. That is interesting. So now what are the situations that are going on around me? because if you were coming in to see me in therapy, then my first thing would be, well, tell me about your week. And people so often say, I don't know, everything's fine. And then you're like,

well, tell me more. Tell me about your job. Tell me about your interactions with your friends. And you'll start to hear this just slow residue of lived experience that's building up to frustration. And all of a sudden there's, oh, okay. So, that's why my tolerance of what's window of tolerance has shrunk because I don't feel good about myself and the relationship I'm in, the job I'm in, yeah, so do you see where I'm going with that? So that'd be my first guess. Yeah. Thoughts on TMS therapy? Oh,

I don't know enough about it. Transmagnetic stimulation. I think that's what it is. And this is interesting. This is a fun fact. The things that never happened right before COVID hit, I met with a group and I've got an office in Arizona. I've got an office in Northern California. And I met with a group in Northern California. And it was a guy I really liked. And he was talking about a TMS center coming into the area that we lived at

the time. And what was really funny was because of the, I've got a couple of podcasts, they were doing well. I knew this guy fairly well. He asked me if I wanted to come run the clinic, the TMS clinic. I thought that is crazy. But then I did go and I looked at what the TMS technology was and it was pretty fascinating.

So it's where, and I'm not, I do not, I can be completely wrong about this, but my understanding is that you're targeting an area of the brain and you're using magnets to try to hit an area of the brain and basically rewrite the little neuropathways.

So it's a way to get a little bit of a fresh start, kind of like the psychedelic assisted therapy movement, whether it's the ketamine assisted therapy, or we're looking at psilocybin now, these things all hit the default mode network of the brain, which is think of it like a new coat of powder over a ski slope. So you're trying to have a new way to access different areas of your brain. And so I don't know enough about TMS, but it sounds pretty fascinating.

So it's another way to try to get this fresh start in a sense are there different meds for ADD for ADD no great question though so ADD is no longer a thing because that's what I well I think I've got the H in there too a while ago ADD was just rolled into ADHD so ADHD but it's called inattentive type so same medications but great question yeah recently diagnosed with DPDR disorder

any tips to help stay grounded? Back in my more... I don't know. I'd say back in my more immature days, I would Google it and I would pretend I know what it is, but let's Google it. Yeah, DPDR. D-P-D-R. Okay. Shall we race? What is D-P-D-R? And I'll tell you if I know. Oh, derealization disorder. I don't know enough about this one.

And again, depersonalization is one that I'm, it's funny, on the way over here tonight, I thought about if we got questions about disassociation or depersonalization, because that is being talked about more and more. And I know a little bit more about that concept of disassociation. A lot of times that happens with trauma, where if somebody is going through an experience, especially in childhood, that they.

Don't want to be there, they shouldn't be there, it's like unfortunate that they're in that situation, that they'll learn to disassociate and almost see themselves in that situation as a way to try to deal with it. And that's the little bit I know of that. So, I don't know anything about DPDR, but it says a mental health condition characterized by persistent or recurrent feelings of detachment from oneself and or the environment.

So, I hope that, and it even says causes, the exact cause of DPDR is unknown, but it's thought to be related to factors such as oh here we go trauma or stressful events anxiety or depression substance use or certain medical conditions and it says treatment typically involves psychotherapy and medication may also be used to manage symptoms of anxiety or depression here's where i will throw let me when i say soapbox i know i say this all the time do you know what that means nope okay i said

let me get on my soapbox here and that just means let me say something i feel very passionate about for a moment and that is that there in the study stuff

i'm reading online right now it talks about psychotherapy, such as cognitive behavioral therapy, which is called CBT. Now, I'm going to go on my big CBT versus acceptance and commitment therapy, informational speech. I was going to say rant, but that sounds very dramatic. Most every therapist starts out as a cognitive behavioral therapy therapist, a CBT therapist. I was a CBT therapist for seven or eight years. And what CBT starts with is

your thoughts lead to your emotions and your emotions lead to your behaviors. Right? Inherent in that is you have automatic negative thoughts or stinking thinking. And so, you need to change your thought to give you a different emotion and that different emotion will lead to a different behavior. And I will tell you, it works at times. And especially if somebody doesn't have any tools in their mental health toolkit and they don't even want to be around.

Then telling them that's a pretty automatic negative thought and what are some other thoughts that might replace that thought that maybe other people will miss you or maybe you haven't just found your calling in life, or that might make the person feel a little bit better. Their emotion will change, and then it might lead to a different behavior of them investing in their mental health.

The reason I bring that up is because I have thought about this with things like disassociation, where, so I'm an acceptance and commitment therapy now, a clinician. So I moved from CBT about 10 or 12 years ago to ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy. And I highly recommend any of you look this up. There's so many books on ACT now. One that we're reading at the house right now is it's called The Happiness Trap and it's by an author named Russ Harris. It's a great intro book to ACT.

But ACT starts with the point of saying that you, person listening right now, you're the only version of you that has ever walked on the face of the earth. So you are a unique blend of your nature and your nurture and your birth order and your DNA and your abandonment, your rejection, your hopes, your fears, your dreams, everything. That's what makes you you. So who on earth has the right to be able to say that your thought is wrong?

Or that you are having automatic negative thoughts. No, no. In the world of acceptance and commitment therapy, you are just having thoughts and you're having feelings because you are. Because you are the only version of you. And it is a great place to start. Because instead of the what's wrong with me, nothing is wrong with me. It's more of a check this out. I'm noticing that I am feeling more of a dissociative state.

Check that out. Because then I can, what that allows you to do is step back and take a look at yourself in the context of that moment. So in this moment, this is how I'm feeling. this is what I'm thinking now I can look at that with curiosity I can take a look at all the things that are going on around with in my life. And this is why it can be so difficult when somebody says things like, no, I've been there as well. I know exactly what you're going through.

It sounds helpful. It sounds very sympathetic. But in reality, how does that feel for anybody? When somebody says, I know exactly what you're going through. This is what happened to me. Well, no, actually, you don't know what exactly happened to me. But now I will tell you, oh, wow, boy, it sounds like you do. And now that person feels good. See, I'm glad we had this talk. And you still feel unseen or unheard.

So act just starts from this place of that okay you are feeling and thinking what you are feeling and thinking because you are and so check that out and now let's start to look at what do i want to do with

that so anyway okay josh said yeah so josh i'm glad you're here tonight so i believe he said i like this guy oh okay good all right there we go he said so i believe i can sense my mom's intentions but she denies what i claim her intentions are and there's no hard evidence so i can't convince her how do I convince her you cannot but you convince yourself or you understand yourself now you can try to bring awareness to that to her and this is man there's so many good things we can

talk about here Josh one of those is it sounds like you're wondering about the ADHD vibe and that is that sensitivity the same sensitivity that causes us to have a little bit more rejection fear of rejection also we're reading the room and so almost on that line of people that feel like they are empaths or the adhd brain is constantly scanning for okay, because i'm looking for dopamine and i'm fearing rejection and i'm doing this all the time so i i do have a good read on people and and that can

be a thing but what's really fascinating is it's little to no one enjoys being told what they're thinking or feeling or what their intentions are even if you're right and that's a concept called oh my gosh i talk about it all the time it is called.

Oh no okay what is the thing when somebody's telling you how you think or feel i say this all the time it is this like a me of them no no no wait i'm gonna lose my mind it's okay the first original studies were done in a courtroom setting when people said the judge would say almost the judge would say okay strike that evidence from the record and then what would happen was the people in the jury would be like oh that evidence must be important so then even attorney

sometimes would say something just so it could get struck from the record and it is called, holy cow fired okay i have done i've done multiple podcasts about this it's the instant negative reaction of being told what to do it is called. Okay i will wake up this morning and i will be screaming it in my brain wait now i feel like i know you do know you do okay you have to you and i say it all the time and i keep wanting to say But okay, or the instant negative reaction

of being told what to do. It's why thought suppression doesn't work. Right now, don't think of a white polar bear riding a pink bike, swinging a green fish around a set. Psychological reactions. Thank you, psychological reactions. I didn't look it up. Okay, it just popped up in your mind. So psychological reactions. So this is where you have a good read, Josh.

I have a good feeling about you and you're picking up on the vibe and you kind of think, I caught my mom, she's being immature and I know what she's thinking. Now, in reality, you really don't, but I would put my money on Josh. But then when you say, hey, I think this is what you meant. Now I'm basically saying, hey, don't think about that white polar bear. Cause now she's like, I'm not thinking that. And you're like, really, really you're not.

And she's like, no, I'm not. So at some point, this is where that concept earlier of being differentiated of this is a me thing and that's a her thing. So for me, I feel pretty confident that I read that one, right? Is she going to give me the gift of telling me that I got it right? No, no, she's not. As a matter of fact, she'll probably double down on, as a matter of fact, I've never even thought that. And this is the fascinating thing about.

Psychological reactants. I was speaking about this to a group a little while ago, and I gave an example of, let's just say that my dad would, let's say he's telling me that, you know, son, you really need to have a budget. I do. I really need to have a budget. I'm not saying I do. And I have one. I need to budget. I've heard about these things. I'm 55 now. I, and I still not a big budgeter, but just because he's telling me that's what you need to do.

My immaturity in my brain might go as far as to even say, I've read studies that say that people that have budgets don't live as long. That's not real. Maybe it is. I don't know. You can probably find a study that says that if you wanted to, but in reality, that's just, I'm saying that because of my immaturity, because I don't want somebody telling me what to do. And so one of the best things we can do, this is, goes back to that.

I need to have a solid, but flexible sense of self, meaning that I'm good. I think I know what's going on here, but I'm open that I could be wrong.

That's fair enough okay is bipolar disorder where you suppress your emotions but make lists of how people have wronged you and then go off not really i have a heart and i feel bad wait we're at an hour so i have to put the puzzle piece together look at that puzzle all right no but look at it's like cows, who picks that did i get it right yep okay we're back bye wait read that one again Is bipolar disorder... Or that's BPD, right?

BPD? Oh, BPD could be borderline personality disorder. That's a whole different ballgame.

Oh wait okay so wait wait what is the difference oh they're big well i know but like what is the difference of the letters oh bipolar i don't i don't know same yeah bpd though what's the question now it probably fits bpd what is bpd where you suppress your emotions but make lists of how people have wronged you and then go off that would fit more into bpd yeah bpd is it's in this this personality disorder cluster the same with like narcissism and histrionic personality disorder, but yeah.

And borderline is just think of this. So I don't have one here in my Arizona office, but in California, you always keep a little paperback. Most therapists do. And it's, it's the Bible of the borderline. It's called, I hate you. Don't leave me. And so borderline has intense, intense fluctuating emotions and they shift rapidly. I hate you. Don't leave me. I hate you. Don't leave me. A difficulty controlling anger.

Somebody with borderline can be very impulsive. They have a real fear of abandonment, like an intense fear of abandonment and a need for a relationship to make them feel better. Because what's fascinating about that personality disorder cluster is all of those things, histrionic personality disorder, narcissism, borderline. It's really all about a lack of a sense of self. So, I need somebody else to interact with in order to just know that I even exist.

But unfortunately, I'm very immature in the way I interact with that person. So, I need to control them in order to feel like they will not leave me instead of allowing them to just be. And that's the goal of trying to become more emotionally mature in your relationship is learning that I need to be okay as I am. And this is so cliched, but it is so true that if I do not love myself, then I cannot fully love somebody else.

Because if I don't love myself, then I'm trying to figure out a way to get that person to love me. And that's typically where we go into the world of control. And unfortunately, that is a very, very immature and damaging way to maintain a relationship. because you can have love or control in an adult relationship, not both. And it's really scary when you just go down the path of, I'm going to love that person because I can't control them. So, they may not love me back.

They may even want to leave a relationship and that is their right. And that is scary. But when you are whole and you are showing up and you are loving someone else, now we can have these shared experiences and we're two whole people that are coming together, two differentiated interdependent individuals that come together and have these shared experiences. And that makes life incredible. Not the anxious, though, what do they think? Are they going to leave me? Do they like me?

What if they find out what I'm thinking? That's a really unfortunate way to be in a relationship, but it is how most relationships are. So it takes a lot of courage to become more emotionally mature and trust and allow your partner to just be. And you're choosing them and you've chosen yourself as well. I could go on and on. Okay. Okay. My friend manipulates me and everyone with her mental health. I'm so tired of it.

She's been in therapy forever, and the lady just agrees with everything she says. Is there such thing as too much therapy?

There can be. Do you think there is? Well, it depends. Or is it just the wrong therapy? It's the wrong type of therapy, yeah. No, yeah, you're really, it's such a great question. Thank you, person. And also, I really apologize for what you're going through with that. Because as a mental health professional, I know when there are certain people that they love nothing more than to talk a lot about their therapist and their therapist said this, and you should go to therapy.

And so then their friends start to just get tired of hearing about therapy. Because in reality, that that is that person still needing external validation. They need other people to know that they're struggling or they're working on their mental health or they're going to therapy. But in reality, the more emotionally mature you become, you know, you're going to therapy and you know, you're working on your mental health.

And so then that's a you thing. And so all the interactions you have with others is your muse. It's your chance to understand why do I feel so insecure? Why do I need that external validation? And hopefully you're bringing that into therapy and that's the work that you're doing. But I, and this is, I'm going to sound really judgmental, but I can do it now because I'm like an old man and I've been a therapist for 20 years or so.

Because in the beginning, even the therapist doesn't know what they don't know. And they just want the person to feel good about themselves. Because why? Because that makes the therapist feel pretty good about themselves too. And you don't even realize for a long time as a therapist that your job is not to feel better about yourself in the therapy process.

Your job is to try to help that person get to this place where they can self-confront and they can grow and they can recognize that they don't know what they don't know and so they're bringing things into therapy and at some point this shift it happens in therapy where they now are coming in with it and i like this vibe of where it's almost like we're just sitting here beside each other and they're saying okay here's my experience what do you think versus tell me what to do

and then because what happens is when somebody's coming in and they're saying well what do you think I should do. They really don't want to know what you think that they should do. Because you will say, well, I think this, oh no, I've already tried that. Or, well, that doesn't work. Or you don't understand how bad it is for me. And so, that person is going to therapy. And this is why I was saying earlier that I guess maybe too much is not the

right way to put it. But some people go to therapy just to get validation. And I personally, and again, this is why I say I'm an old man, been doing therapy for a long time. I just have a different, I can't, that isn't really what I'm interested in anymore is just validating someone over and over and over again. So, it's For me, I really like working with people that are, and most of the people now at this point, I'm picking off a wait list.

They listen to a bunch of my podcasts. They're familiar with the way that I do therapy. And so, they're saying, okay, everything is a me thing. That's one of the best things you can do. When that person says this, I got upset. That's a me thing. Why did I get upset about what this person said? Or from a parenting standpoint, if my kid is embarrassing me, that's a me issue. Why am I embarrassed? Because they're just being a kid. So, then those are the things I like when people bring that in.

They're saying, check this out. I got frustrated when my spouse didn't say this thing to me. And so then why did I get frustrated? Okay, because I want a mutually reciprocal relationship or is it because I guess I'm realizing I don't express my needs in the relationship because now we'll work on, well, how do I do that? But if somebody's just coming in and saying, everybody's mean to me and all this sort of thing, and then I'm just saying, well, what if there's this or

have you looked at this? And they're like, oh no, you don't understand. They're really mean to me. At some point then, and I guess I'll end with this part and then we can do more questions. I'm not saying like I'll end the night, although we're, yeah, we're over an hour. We should cut off questions soon. Let's cut off questions. Okay. And then we'll do a speed run because I do have to. Because there are still a lot. Are there? We'll still get to. Well, not like a ton. Okay.

Well, yeah. So, let's do a speed run through the questions. But where was I going with that? Validation. So often people, they do, they think they want like a real connection or intimacy in the relationship. But really what they're looking for is validation. And this is what you see as a therapist. If I'm just walking around the world and somebody knows I'm a therapist, they'll say, wait, can I ask you a question? What would you do if, and I know, I already know how this game's played.

They just want validation they want me to say oh i would do exactly what you're doing and then they get to walk around and say i talked to a therapist they said i was right too versus yeah so it's really fascinating okay other questions i was telling josh that we'll end with his question okay let me go back to it's gonna be back by the way do you know that tiktok is in the supreme court right now no yeah it supposedly is going to be done by the 19th or it will continue forever Okay.

Yeah. Follow us on Instagram. FirstShoeWorld.com. Okay. I'm a big fan.

To sorry riddle nerd we love you do you know anything about ocd but ruminating thoughts that lead to anxiety attacks yeah yeah so we're talking about like ocd of thought and right is that maybe what you're thinking did i just ask that question oh no sorry i thought you were saying oh no i was gonna say like that one's that one is it's really rough i'm saying bless your heart that one can be difficult because the rumination is it can

just eat somebody alive because they're just going to overthink and overthink and when you have ocd of thought think about the way ocd works is that there's an obsession which causes an anxiety. And then how do you alleviate that anxiety? It's through the compulsion. And so, when it's something like hand washing, somebody might have some real fear of germs, getting sick. They might have an origin story of watching somebody close to them pass away from sepsis in the hospital.

So, now all of a sudden, that gives them a lot of anxiety. And so, then they got to wash their hands a lot. So, you can start to work with that. Now, OCD of thought can be difficult because the way that you alleviate the discomfort or the obsession, the compulsion oftentimes is what's like checking with others. Do you think I'm right? Do you think I'm okay? Or just needing reassurance. And so, that can be a lot in a relationship.

But I would really highly recommend trying to find a specialist that works with OCD.

And I've actually reached out to, there's a Dr. Michael Tuhig who I've had on my podcast before, and he's one of the most world-renowned researchers for acceptance and commitment therapy and ocd and i know he has a online course that i was promoting last year at this time i might have to go dig that up email me anybody can email me questions by the way if you're here and we don't get to your question tonight email me at tony at tony overbay.com and and i will try

to answer your question on a future live or on a we'll do a video on it or something like that and we're going to get better about being pretty regular about coming back here too and we'll let you know well ahead of time yeah and kelly thanks for liking the life i think i might have I have OCD. Yeah. You've had, yeah. Yeah. For me, what really helped was definitely acceptance. And then also... Dang it. The thing happened where I forgot everything. Okay.

Keep talking. I'll be back. Okay. Cut me off when you do. Okay. Yeah. But acceptance. I love 101 Music's back. Is the office haunted? I don't think this office is haunted. We're in Mesa. Although when... Yes, it's haunted. Who knocked on the door? Oh, wait. I forgot you heard the door knocking. Yeah. Yeah. 101 Music, I think it is. But it's an adorable ghost. I don't know. Okay. OCD. Dang it. What was I going to say? This never takes a blow.

Okay, here's one other thing. I'll keep talking and you'll remember. It helped me. Yeah, it really helped me to have a more acceptance that the thoughts are going to come. They still come every day for me. But for me, I really, really had to create a solid sense of self. And I had to really know who I am and know that I am okay. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that really helped me. Because now when the thoughts come,

they're going to come. but they don't have any control over me because for once, I actually know that I'm okay. That's good. And like growing up, I never knew like that I was okay. You know, like I always was like seeking for everyone else's validation instead of giving it to myself. And so those thoughts, like I thought that they were there to aid me. Like I thought that if I kept having these anxious thoughts that there was going to be one last thought where I got my answer.

But like the truth is there's no answer that's just bogus in your head. And like, once you know you're okay, like, I promise that will really help. I don't really know how to do that. Like, how did I do it? Like, that's like a whole process, right? Of like, emotional growth and stuff. But... That really helped me. Hey, okay, can I do, can I say this? I guess I'm going to, anyway. We've got a project coming up that I think will deal with things like that.

We're, and we'll tell you so much more about this coming up, but it's going to be where we're going to do what will really look like real therapy. Because I like when you say, I don't know how to do that. And we're going to, we're working on a project that we'll make available to everybody. It'll be live, but where we'll go through what that looks like in therapy.

And we're going to stay with a conversation like that. Remember, until you really understand what I'm wanting to try to convey as the therapist, and I'm really going to sit there and try to understand the difficulties in trying to make that happen. Because that acceptance is a big piece. Acceptance does not mean apathy. It doesn't mean I'm just giving up. Acceptance means to take in without defense in its entirety. I'm accepting the fact that I'm having this thought.

And it goes back to the acceptance and commitment therapy piece I talked about earlier, where I'm not broken, I'm human. and I'm going through life for the very first time as me in this situation because of all the things I bring to the table, this is what I'm thinking. Check that out. Make room for it. And then what Sid talked about that is so important is from that back to that concept of becoming differentiated means that I know I'm okay and I don't need somebody else to tell me I'm okay.

That is that need for external validation. Now, we all start out needing external validation. That's how we were raised as kids. We didn't know if we were doing life okay. And so, we needed a parent to tell us that it was okay. Now, the unfortunate part is we typically just were experiencing life for the first time and then being told we were doing it wrong. Hey, bud, we don't do that. We don't say that. Tuck your shirt in. Sit up.

And so, then we were feeling like, okay, I'm just walking around being a kid and apparently I'm not very good at it because I'm told that this is not the way that we do it. This is the way I'm doing it. So, then over time, kids stop externalizing their emotions and they internalize them And then because they feel like, okay, what I'm doing or what I'm thinking or what I'm feeling is wrong. And so now I need somebody else to tell me what to think, how to feel, what to do.

And so then part of your maturation process is starting to learn that you are actually in charge of your own ship. And you are thinking and feeling things because you are, and that's okay. And if other people have a problem with that, that is a them issue, bless their hearts. And at that point, then if you are okay with it, then you're going to be able to say to them, well, tell me more about what that is that you don't like about

me, because I'm good with myself. And I think it goes back to what Sid's talking about, is that we need to have that same relationship with our own thoughts. If our thoughts are saying, well, I don't know, I think that person's mad at me. Well, I need to realize that that's a them issue. Like I'm okay. And if they're mad at me, then I can't, maybe I can check in. Hey, did I do anything to upset you?

But I'm not doing it from a place of, because I need to feel better about myself, but it's because I genuinely care because I'm okay. Or that person needs to have the courage to express that to me. And if not, now we're back to the world of emotional immaturity. Back to you. So much for a speed round. Okay. I, yeah. I feel like I can feel other people's feelings. Is there a condition that That would be a symptom.

I think that's just empathy, right? Yeah, it's good too. It's a, so I would recommend go to a highly, look up highly sensitive person. And there's a website called hsponline.com. And this is a, it's fancier name is sensory processing sensitivity and highly sensitive people. It's a really fascinating concept. I know that I am not necessarily HSP online. Let me do this. I know that that is not me, but I know that I think there's a couple. Yeah, I think you do too.

Here, let me read this. There's a, oh, it's hsperson.com, hsperson.com, the highly sensitive person says, is this you? Are you easily overwhelmed by such things as bright lights, strong smells, coarse fabrics? Do you get rattled when you have a lot to do in a short amount of time? Do you make it a point of avoiding violent movies and TV shows? Do you need to withdraw during busy days into bed or darken room or some other place where you can have privacy and a relief from the situation?

Do you make it a high priority to arrange your life to avoid upsetting or overwhelming situations? Do you notice or enjoy delicate or fine scents, tastes, sounds, works of art? Do you have a rich and complex inner world? When you were a child, did your parents or teachers often see you as sensitive or shy? And the woman who discovered this first is a lady named Elaine Aron. This was back in the early 90s. But this is what I think is really interesting.

She says, if you have a lot of those traits, then you are highly sensitive. And she said, your trait is normal. It's found in 15 to 20% of the population, which makes it too many to be a disorder, but not enough to be well understood. And are you following this so far? Like, this is kind of crazy, right? This is the cool part. It's innate. Which means they say that biologists have found HSP in over a hundred species, from fruit flies to birds to fish to dogs, cats, and horses.

And this trait reflects a certain type of survival strategy of being observant before acting. And here's the key, is that the brains of highly sensitive persons actually work a little different. And if you go to HS Person Online, the paragraph I'm reading right now has a link to research. And one of the beliefs is that if you had this role in the family where you were more observant, you were trying to read the room. And so, there's a belief that you develop

these heightened mirror neurons. So, you really are more aware. You might feel like you're more hypervigilant. Maybe you're driving down the road and you just get a vibe that that car is about to move over into your lane. Like, you can just sense things. And so, that's that highly sensitive person vibe. Now, like I think earlier, we were talking about this with Josh where he feels like he has an idea of maybe what his mom's saying or feeling.

And so, the thing that can be a little of a challenge here is that you are probably having some big feelings around a lot of things. Maybe read the room well, you might read somebody's, you might meet somebody and you're like, I don't like the vibe there. And so, I will say, trust your instinct, go with your gut on that, but just know that every now and again, that might not be as accurate of a read as you would like, but I would rather have you default to trusting yourself

than not. Oh, and this is, okay, one more thing about this too. So, it says you're more aware, a couple more things, You're more aware of others', subtleties. This is because your brain processes information and reflects on it more deeply. And so they said, even if you wear glasses, for example, you see more than others by noticing more.

But it also says you get more easily overwhelmed because if you're noticing everything, you're naturally going to be overstimulated when things are too intense, complex, chaotic, or novel for a long time. And then I love the fact that this researcher, Eileen Aaron, says the trait is not a new discovery, but it's misunderstood. So because HSPs prefer to look before entering new situations, they're often called shy. but shyness is learned. It's not innate.

In fact, 30% of HSPs are extroverts, although the trait is often mislabeled as introversion. And then it says the sensitivity is valued differently in different cultures. And I love this concept. In cultures where it's valued or where it's not valued, like I think in our culture, HSPs tend to have lower self-esteem because they're often told, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal.

Get over it. But they can't not worry about it or they are thinking about it and but when you and they're often told don't be so sensitive but when you put this in a and unfortunately it's a lot of third world countries where somebody this is viewed as a gift and then the person who has hsp is often the shaman or the matchmaker because right because you're gonna see two people and you're like yes or you're gonna see two and you're like no,

oh let's have it so i think that i think i have this yes yes you do. What I think earlier in my life, it caused me to be a really, really bad people pleaser because I always felt like I could feel I could feel everyone around me's emotions, like you said, and it hurt me. It like, yeah, it felt like I had to do something about it. I have to fix this because it's not only making you feel that way. Now I feel this way too. And it's causing me to try to manage everybody else's emotions.

Yes. But again, I feel like that's just where you have to have a really strong sense of self. And like it is like it can be like a gift and like a really beautiful thing as long as you don't let it control you. Absolutely. And what I like what you're saying, Sid, is this is where my friend Ross Rosenberg wrote a book called The Human Magnet Syndrome. Because so often the highly sensitive person finds himself with the narcissistic person or the incredibly emotionally immature person.

And they form this human magnet. And sometimes it can almost feel breakup resistant because the highly sensitive person is going to continually try to take care of or manage the emotions of the narcissistic or emotionally immature person. So they're going to diffuse their anger, their discomfort into the relationship. And the highly sensitive person will say, okay, well, I'll take blame. I'll take ownership. I'll continue to work on things. And that can be really tough.

And I call it the pathologically kind is what I call it often. And if you know what the concept around pathology, it means that you are kind to your detriment. So kindness in itself is an amazing thing, but when it's taken advantage of, then it can, it can actually hurt you. And so I will often have people that are coming out of these emotionally abusive, narcissistic relationships, and then they'll say things like, I need to just change my whole personality.

And I just say, no, you need to like really lean into your personality, your character, but then learn how to set boundaries or really. Keep yourself out of these relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic people. Oh, wait, what Lindsay, what is it? Lindsay Ben says, and then we learn to stand up and we're the bad guy. That is so spot on right there. Because what happens is when you have been playing a role, when you've been playing a role in the relationship,

like I'm always the one that's going to take it. I'm always the one that's going to try to fix it. And then you all of a sudden don't, and you stand up for yourself, then it will disrupt the relationship dynamic. And the emotionally immature or narcissistic person is now going to try to push every button they can to get you back into the position you were because that was comfortable for them. So that's where they'll start pushing buttons of saying, wow, you seem really distant.

You don't seem like you care about me anymore. And all of a sudden they just hit a button on you. I really care. And so now I must prove that I care. And so I just, I appreciate what you're saying. Going through this, my boundaries are an issue. Let me just say, Lindsay, the part that's really fascinating about this is just please understand this boundary versus ultimatum.

And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes I see as a therapist or people that they think they're setting a boundary and they'll say things like, hey, you can't talk to me that way anymore. And what you just did was you just handed them the buttons that said, hey, here's how you can get me really upset because this matters to me. Because that's an ultimatum. A boundary is if you talk to me this way, then I will leave. And I've got an episode in my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast about this.

And if you can't tell, I love humor. Maybe use it a little too much. But I say that when you set that boundary as well, they will immediately test the boundary. That's what the immature does. A boundary is a challenge. So now they'll say, oh, really? Well, what if I say this? And now you have to back up that boundary. And now if you are saying that, then I will leave.

The part where I maybe tried to go a little too much with the humor, as I said, and then as you're walking out, you've got a 50-50 chance of ducking left or right because a shoe is coming flying, because they are not going to take it well. And then that's where we get back into this concept of a trauma bond, where the person that delivers you the punishment will also try to give you the reward.

So that's often when you finally set the boundary and you take action, all of a sudden they're, oh my gosh, they're going to, you know what? I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did that. And then, oh, you've listened to the episodes. Thanks. Let's say, okay, I appreciate that for real. And because in those moments, then, oh, and okay, if you're not in my private women's Facebook group yet, please email me at tony at tonyoverbay.com.

But please become a part of that group. That would be really helpful. The popcorn moments. Exactly. Let's see. Oh, 101 music. I should do a whole, I should do a whole episode on that. People also need to be financially responsible for going into a relationship, that would be good as well. What do you do when they test the boundaries?

That is what is difficult. You have to hold the boundary. And this is why it's so important to understand what a boundary is, because you can't just throw boundaries out and then, because they will push and push and push. And I don't know how many times I've had sessions where people just say, put the line in the sand and they just like, they just cross it and cross it. Oh, exactly. That's exactly what they're going to do. So you have to be able to.

I would say every little kid by definition is a narcissist. So when you say, okay, we're not going to Disneyland anymore, then they're just going to work you and work you and work you until you're in Disneyland again. So we've little kids have learned that if we say, I'm not getting you a toy at the store, they're like, really? Okay. I will scream my guts out. I will make you. And then you'll finally say, okay, this one time, but that's a you, that's for you to say in that the little

kid just got their toy. They're like, yeah, whatever. So they've learned to push a boundary. We've taught our kids that, and we were taught that if I continue to throw a fit and whatever, I will get my way. So you have to be able to, the email address is Tony, T-O-N-Y at Tony overbay.com and, or go to my website, Tony overbay.com. And you can send me something through the contact form and just let me know that you were here on the Tik TOK alive, but yeah, back to, and let's end with

this, Sid, cause I got early clients tomorrow. Okay. I'll screenshot everyone else's questions so we can get to them next time. Cause I feel bad.

Oh, I know we got a lot but you guys thanks so much we we took a little break we're back we'll uh try to do this once or twice a week again can we book a session yeah uh lindsey in particular reach out to me please um and uh yes and send that to can you type in there or tony yeah just tony at tony overbay.com just bridge thank you you are awesome and but yeah reach out to me also and then let's see let the partner know why the boundary

is being drawn yes to the yeah i'll do a whole other episode i haven't done a boundaries episode in a little while so i think that's it i just I screenshotted all the questions and we'll start with those on the next live. That would be great. Okay. All right. Clean mic. Thank you. That's from a musician. I'll take that. All right. You guys, thank you. It's been wonderful. Yeah, it did. Yeah. Okay. All right. Great to see you guys. We will see you next time. Anything to say? All right. Music.