Having the Courage to Connect: How to Develop Independence Within a Relationship

Music. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 421 of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful habit coach, a writer-speaker, and now an Arizonian, which I do not remember if it's Arizona-n or Arizonian, but I digress.

Let's get to the episode today. If you want to know more about upcoming re-releases of a magnetic marriage course, you join my Path Back Online recovery course, or if you are a guy who is hoping to figure himself out, reach out to me about the very, very soon to be emotional architects by monthly group calls.

And that is something I put a lot of time and effort to get to the content there to just help people know what they don't know, learn to sit with discomfort, wake up to emotional immaturity, start to be more emotionally consistent, all the buzzwords, but every single one of those, I feel like I've lived, I've experienced, so I can speak from a place of confidence. And so I would love to help guys get to that place as well.

Go to TonyOverbay.com, sign up for the newsletter, or you can shoot me a message

at contact at TonyOverbay.com. Especially, I mentioned at the end of the last episode, if you are interested in working with me one-on-one, if you feel like that might be something that you would be interested in, either an individual or a couple, just reach out to me at contact at TonyOverbay.com. Tell me a little bit more about your story and what kind of help you might be looking for. So today's story is based on true events and real people. Some things have been changed ever so slightly.

So Lisa and Mike are a couple in their late 30s. And growing up, both of them admitted that they witnessed their own set of family drama in Lisa's family and Mike's family. Lisa's mom used anger and silence as her go-to moves. And that made the air in her home, she said, you could just feel the anxiety. It was palpable. It was tangible. When you walked in, it almost felt like an anxiety force field.

Now, Mike's dad, he preferred guilt and a lot of blame to keep everybody in line, which meant a lot of just tiptoeing around. So when they met, they clicked instantly because they were drawn together by, they felt like almost this shared sense of understanding about their less than ideal childhoods. They felt like they could just both be open and they really got each other. And so they bonded over sharing about the challenges that they had growing up from their past.

But as they started dating, they started to realize that they really weren't equipped to handle disagreements. And this isn't like on agreement on disagreement one, they thought, well, this is fascinating. We don't really have the tools. This is something that evolved over time.

The arguments were there, but they did the classic when they would get in an argument, they would both hunker down, they would hurl insults, they would withdraw, they would get into the tit for tat or the freeze and flee or the pursuer and the withdrawal. And then they would go into their bunkers. One of them would poke their head out from time to time, and then they would say, hey, are we good? And the other one would say, yeah, we're okay.

So it was absolutely one of those situations where the we got through it or things are okay now or things are good really just meant things were no longer bad. And that absence of bad does not mean that the relationship is good.

And these little tiny misunderstandings would start to just spiral and spiral, and it would eventually make its way into a silent treatment or really snarky comments because neither of them knew how to talk about their feelings without worrying about the other person's reaction. So they're doing a lot of managing their partners' emotions and anxiety through the way that they showed up, and they're not going to get that right.

So, their relationship settled into something comfortable. It was very familiar, but it was pretty shallow and it lacked depth. They wanted deeper conversations. So, even though they both agreed that they felt unfulfilled by the time they came into my office, Lisa and Mike were so much more afraid of being alone than actually changing their behaviors or changing their ways. And they had both convinced themselves that this whole, their lukewarm relationship

was about as good as it could ever be. because, after all, stepping into the unknown was daunting and scary and uncomfortable. And they did what so many couples do and just said, well, it's a myth that couples

can get better as they get older. This is just where everybody settles into. And those are things that they would say to themselves and to each other at times to make themselves feel more comfortable or to just feel like, okay, so it's okay that we don't really have that kind of a connection. Nobody must have that kind of a connection at this point in a relationship. So, I have a couple of interactions that I remember that were pretty notable.

One we'll just call the misunderstood comment. They are having dinner one night. It was a pretty quiet evening because most of them were because at this point, the kids were gone. They were somewhere. They had a couple of kids. But Mike mentions offhand that, you know, he's like, I really actually, I would like to eat out more often. And not even as a critique, but really kind of a change of pace.

And Lisa, her go-to is interpreting comments as criticism because that's what she saw her mom do right out of her mom's playbook. So she gets really defensive. And then she snaps back that he never appreciates her cooking. So then Mike, all of a sudden he feels attacked. And so he shuts down and he just goes right into silent treatment, silent mode, or not even just that, but even just the he's, he's frozen, or he's just going to just wait this one out, hunker down in his bunker.

Cause he was replaying these avoidant patterns that he saw in his dad growing up that a simple comment about dinner, all of a sudden spirals into, to, in essence, like a cold war, shutting down any chance for a real conversation about what they both might enjoy. And they're so used to this that Mike had mentioned that if he saw that that happened, then he knew it's two to three days maybe of just feeling like he's going to be pretty alone.

They're going to go about their business. They're not even going to really look at each other. They're not going to talk about things. And so we'll put that one aside. The second interaction, we'll just call it the planning dispute. So picture him trying to plan a weekend in getaway. And Mike, not knowing that Lisa had had a rough week at work, suggests let's go camping. And Lisa, who really wants, because of this rough week, comfort, she wants ease.

She just wants to relax, almost to feel like a little bit pampered. Even if she has to pamper herself, she immediately takes a suggestion as thoughtless. And she just gets on him about him always making the decisions without considering her. And she told me later that she said, I mean, how could he not have have understood that the last thing I would have wanted to do is go sleep in some sleeping bag on the ground. Mike, he's stung by the accusation. And so then what does he do?

He snaps back with sarcasm. Another defensive tactic that he had picked up from his dad. So the discussion falls apart and then they both feel bitter and they both feel misunderstood. And that kind of clash, that is the thing that underscores their struggle to balance their own anxiety with their desires. And so what does that do? It leads to conflict. Nobody's feeling heard. We're nowhere even near approaching any sort of compromise. And that pattern just repeats itself over and over and over.

Those examples really highlight the importance of being able to handle your own business, handle personal anxieties, and also try to be true to yourself in a relationship. So Lisa and Mike, it's pretty clear they're stuck repeating very old, familiar family patterns, but what they're missing out on is a deeper connection. And when they got married, they just thought we would grow older together.

We would have so many amazing experiences and times, but they're missing out on that because they can't navigate their differences at all. It's not very constructive when they can't even have a conversation about him wanting to go out to eat or going camping or her assuming that he should know that how dare he want to go camping when she's had a rough week moving forward.

Then mission number one is they really need to learn to sit with discomfort because in that discomfort, that's where we find growth. And it sounds logical. It might even sound easy, but the job as the therapist there was to help them see their differences, not as obstacles, but those are opportunities to strengthen their partnership. And basically they've spent however many years as if they've gotten to a place where, okay, they've already agreed on all the things they need to agree on.

And now anything new just feels like a threat. And that is what brings up a tremendous amount of discomfort. So today, I really want to focus on how our past experiences or our learned behaviors come into play and they influence our current connections. And I'm going to focus primarily on our spouse or maybe even on our kids today. Because I think a lot of people like Lisa and Mike, we find ourselves replaying these emotional scripts that we grew up with and we typically don't even realize it.

As a matter of fact, I would love for you to give yourself grace if you are realizing it or even what we've talked about in the first 10 minutes brings up some feelings or emotions because how could you know what you don't know and you're operating from a home base of this is what I saw.

So these scripts, whether they involve avoiding conflict or suppressing, withholding our feelings or misinterpreting signals or making meaning out of words that our partner then says, that isn't what I actually meant. Those things shape the entire dynamic of our relationships. So I want to go really deep today on embracing discomfort and fostering really, really true differentiation and how that will lead to richer, more fulfilling partnerships. partnerships and differentiation.

Remember being true to yourself while in close proximity to others, you know, trying to figure out your independence while maintaining a connection with somebody else, because differentiation I've learned, especially over the past few months, and that it's not just this psychology buzzword. This is, this is a game changing, crucial skill that allows us to maintain our identity and actually discover our identity and our personal values, even as we grow closer to our partners.

And this whole process, it requires and involves understanding and managing our anxiety independent, which is absolutely essential for healthy and even passionate relationships. So, this story about Lisa and Mike and these examples, they're really common. And I could have picked a whole lot of different ones. They just happen to be the people that were in my office when I started putting this episode together. other.

But both partners in that situation or in so many situations shaped by their childhood environments, they fall into patterns that prevent them from truly connecting and they find safety in the familiar. Let that one sit. They find safety in the familiar and they avoid the uncomfortable and the unknown. We fear uncertainty. We crave certainty. The unknown seems scary because we don't know what's going to happen. And we're basing so much of what that future looks like based off of the past.

Well, this has happened. So what if this thing happens in the future? And one of the most powerful tools I think I've learned from ACT is that we often ruminate about the past and worry about the future and our brains doing that to try to help us make sense of the present. So if I go back to, but this is what's always happened in the past, truly the best answer to that is absolutely that has. And then what if this happens in the future? Well, that would be a thing.

But what we really have control of is right now, in that present moment, how I show up, what I bring to this relationship, and what am I going to learn through things like discomfort. What we'll see as we dig into more of these interactions is the safety comes at the cost of intimacy and at the cost of growth.

And so when we start to unpack Lisa and Mike's responses and their reactions, we can start to understand the importance of confronting rather than shying away from the discomfort that comes with change and even better, that comes with emotional honesty. It takes a lot of courage to be emotionally honest. Because if we even just go back to those examples again, they really highlight this role of handling your personal anxiety and embracing your true self in a relationship.

Lisa and Mike, they were pretty stuck in their ways and they show how easy it is to fall into the cycle of avoidance and then just superficial conversations. And ultimately, that stunts the relationship's growth. And if you really want a thriving partnership, they and all of us have to learn to navigate our differences more constructively. And we have to have that courage to be able to be curious about our partner and their differences and drop the assumptions and really just get so curious.

And that's going to mean sitting with discomfort that comes from challenging these deep-seated fears and embracing these opportunities for intimacy and connection that they come up when we do step out there and make ourselves open and vulnerable. And it's not just about finding common ground. That's what we often do to get rid of our anxiety or to alleviate our discomfort is we immediately jump right to, can we work some sort of compromise?

And I find that early in couples therapy, compromise is often, and it's not necessarily a win, but is achieved often by the person who has achieved it more often than not throughout the relationship. The person that might be a little louder, might be a little bit more persistent, might be one who maybe finds themselves a little little more gaslighting.

And for anybody that's somewhat new to the virtual couch, or even this concept of differentiation, or if you've heard it a whole bunch of times, if right now you feel uncomfortable thinking, okay, here, this guy goes again about differentiation of self, and he's probably going to start talking about Murray Bowen. Which I am, but just very briefly, even those very feelings of, oh man, that's all this guy's been talking about. Well, it's because I really feel like it's something that's important.

And if you don't quite really have a grip on what it means to be differentiated or what that process even looks like, then bring that discomfort along a little bit longer and hear me out because we're going to go in a completely different direction than I have in the past when I've talked about differentiation. Yes, Bowen, he zeroes in on this idea that our anxieties are not just our own. That they are part of this bigger web of relationships, and we're all kind of

entangled in those. It's that enmeshment. So, whether we are the ones that are chasing the pursuer, or whether we're the ones that are pulling away the withdrawer, we're all dealing with our own anxiety and avoidance in ways that then spill over into our relationships, not just our primary, maybe romantic, sexual, or marital relationship. But when you really understand that concept of differentiation, we're putting this into all of our relationships.

Just as an example, then consider a parent who they become overwhelmed by their own anxiety or fear or frustration, or you name it. And then they end up yelling at their kid. Now, when you look at it from a differentiated standpoint and start from a place of that's a them thing, when they end up shouting at their kid, it's a quick fix and it diffuses the tension in that moment for the parent, but they're handing it over to the kid. It doesn't solve the underlying issue.

You know, I actually talked to somebody earlier today who said that they have some real issues with giving gifts. And they said that their mom would give a gift, then explain how he most likely wouldn't want it and that he could return it. And here's the gift receipt. So it's not a far stretch in this context of being differentiated to say that she was diffusing her anxiety and insecurity of getting a gift that wouldn't be appreciated.

Then by proactively letting him know that he probably wouldn't like it. And as a matter of fact, she's already made it easy for him to return it already before he has even seen it. Now, if you want to go a little deeper, and I know I'm making some assumptions here, but I can say with some surety that I've worked with a person or two or a dozen who have expressed similar behavior about this proactive apology.

And I have often seen that it comes from watching a parent dismiss or even complain in this scenario about a gift that they've received from the other parent. So there it is, model behavior. So instead of gratitude, there's indifference, ignoring, or in the case of if we're talking extreme emotional immaturity or narcissistic traits and tendencies, now it ends up being used against the gift giver. I can't believe you got me a new hammer. This one's a true story.

Why would you think that I would want a new hammer? That's ridiculous. A new hammer of all things, even though he had repeatedly said that he would be able able to finish some of the projects around the home if he had a better hammer. But then he continued to not buy one. He just wanted to complain about, I could have done these things without a hammer or if I had had a better hammer. So yes, she did actually think he wanted one.

But in that particular case though, she expressed that and he did not say, oh my gosh, my bad. No, he said, I never said that. That's ridiculous. So then to relieve her feelings of anxiety, she apologized.

That's the role that she had learned to play in the relationship because she She saw that with her mom and watching her parents interact with each other, or she did that and tried to diffuse her dad's anxiety when he was going to take it out on the kids, her brothers and sisters, when she was growing up. There's the pattern. And yes, it breaks my heart. If she was able to feel comfortable in her own skin, and if she was able to tolerate that discomfort, and please do not get me wrong.

The last thing I'm saying is she just needs to stand in there and take it by all means. No, no, not at all. Because the process of becoming differentiated is a process. It can be a pretty lengthy one. You know, we don't come by it naturally. So let me get back to this point.

So we got this Bowen, father differentiation, believe that to uplift and improve our family systems truly, each person needs to learn to take responsibility for their own anxiety and discomfort rather than hand it over to other people in the family, right? Jennifer Finlayson-Fyfe, who I have had her on several times, a wonderful guest.

I have heard her say when discussing differentiation that it's about taking responsibility for your discomfort rather than, and I love this phrase, and this is the game changer of today's episode, but taking responsibility for your discomfort rather than diffusing it into the relationship or into the family setting. So let that one sink in. Because how often do we, because we're upset or frustrated or embarrassed, bring those big emotions to our partners or place them on our kids?

And I'll give us credit and our albeit subconscious efforts to diffuse them into the relationship. It's like we're saying, I'm angry. I'm going to let you know about it. So now you are in charge of managing it for me because I am unable to self-soothe. I'm unable to calm myself down, come back to the present moment. And in reality, then after the adult does diffuse it into the relationship, then they actually might feel better. So then what do they do? Now they apologize.

And it is fantastic for them emotionally because now they feel better. But it's also emotionally inconsistent for the rest of the family, leaving them walking on eggshells, wondering which version of dad they might get. And then what's their role going to be that they need to be able to do

to keep the family afloat? Do they need to validate dad? You're the best dad ever. Or do they manage his anxiety and quickly pick up their stuff before he lets loose? So for the parent in this situation, this ability to self-manage, to self-soothe and regulate our anxiety and our own emotions, again, especially with our kids, it is so important. And it's important for our personal development. Yes, let's start and appreciate a little bit of the foundational work about

differentiation laid by Murray Bowen. he was a psychiatrist and a pioneer in family therapy, and he developed the family systems theory. At the heart of his theory is this concept of differentiation of self, which essentially describes an individual's ability to maintain their sense of self while in close emotional relationships. And that was pretty groundbreaking at the time. And Bowen's insights were derived from a combination of clinical research.

And then he had a lot of these innovative family studies, including one that is really well known in psychology. It's this longitudinal study at the National Institute of Mental Health, where he observed families over incredibly extended periods of time to try and see if he could understand or somewhat replicate the intergenerational behaviors or how we pass these things down, even things like a lack of differentiation from generation to generation.

And then his work really taught us that well-differentiated people, they can manage their own emotional needs and still be emotionally connected to other people without losing their individuality. And then here's the person that I've really been finding a lot of value in their work and unfortunately passed away. I believe it might have been in 2020, but that's David Schnarch. And Jennifer Finlesson-Fyfe, who I've had on the podcast several times, I know is someone who references Schnarch a lot.

And I think I just heard her talk about him enough and seen other quotes about Schnarch that I've really done a deep dive and so appreciate that he has brought incredibly fresh perspectives to the field of differentiation within marriage and then really a lot within the marital or sexual relationships. And Schnarch was a clinical psychologist, and then he really emphasized the role of sexual intimacy as basically this platform or muse for personal development and differentiation.

And then his concepts around that, they challenge couples to maintain a strong sense of self within the intimacy around their sexual relationship, which then helps them advocate for mature adult sexuality that fosters a partner's growth. He has a pretty incredible book called Passionate Marriage, where he takes a lot of real-life case studies to illustrate how couples evolve through conflict, which is so important, and their sexually intimate lives.

And that will then test these opportunities to grow through discomfort. So, and his approach not only built on Bowen's theory, but it also, I really appreciate it. He introduces a lot of practical strategies, especially for couples to be able to cultivate more of an intimate relationship and then maintain their own mutual respect and personal integrity.

So you put those two together, Bowen and Schnarch, and now you've got a whole framework for understanding relationships through this lens of differentiation, through the opportunity to grow through discomfort, because we all feel uncomfortable in situations. And when that can turn into an opportunity for growth, it is fascinating. And they show that how this differentiated sense of self, it actually will lead to more fulfilling, more resilient relationships, full of depth.

And then that is where the true intimacy and personal growth comes. So when we were talking about Lisa and Mike's journey today, now if you were able to go back and listen and keep these principles in mind and think about how they would apply not only to romantic partnerships, but also just generic interactions with family or friends or colleagues. What I want to do is I want to just give a little bit more background on the foundational principles around differentiation from Bowen and Schnarch.

And then we're going to get into the deep end of the pool. So Bowen talked about a concept called emotional fusion versus differentiation. So the differentiation itself, again, the degree that an individual can separate their own intellectual and emotional functioning from that of their family. He observed that in emotionally fused families, when there was just a meshment, that individuals within the family system struggled to make decisions independently.

They needed somebody else to tell them things were okay or how to think. And that often produced this groupthink mentality where then, and I don't want to say the bulliest of the bully in the relationship, but maybe the person who was the loudest. Or maybe sometimes I even think the more emotionally immature is going to end up making a lot of the decisions. You're almost playing to this, I want to say, lowest common denominator within that enmeshed family.

He also talked about triangles and triangulation. Bowen said that the triangle is the smallest stable relationship system, which makes it sound like we're saying, well, that's cool, but hang on. In times of tension, a dyad or a two-person relationship might then pull in a third person to try to stabilize themselves. So one person in the relationship, if they feel emotionally immature or they lack confidence, then they may start to bring in, well, your sister also thinks you're this way.

Or I was talking to the doctor today and he thinks that you need to do something different. And they do it to try to destabilize themselves. But well-differentiated people, they can resist being triangulated and maintain direct communication.

Well, I want to know what you think. My sister's got her own opinion, that kind of thing. And then Bowen also talked about multi-generational transmission. Where he explores how families pass along their emotional processes throughout the generations. And then less differentiated individuals, they will then follow the whole family pattern a lot more closely.

But then more differentiated people can break those cycles. That's my hope for you is that as you become more differentiated, which you can do through your relationship, that you now can break those familial patterns and cycles. And then he also had a concept called the nuclear family emotional system. And he just said here that the patterns in a nuclear family, like marital conflict, dysfunction in a spouse, impairment, challenges with

one or more of the children, that those are expressions of the emotional system. So, when one person starts to really get out of alignment within the family system, then that is key that something's happening to disrupt the family system. Something different is happening here. And so, then differentiation starts to affect how those patterns show up. And then he also had a concept called a family projection process.

And that is where it's the transmission of emotional issues from a parent to a child. It's passing along the anxiety of a parent onto the kid. And this is what I think that we really, if we're going to be pretty honest and all self-confronting, that there's a fair amount of this where sometimes we don't even realize we're doing this. But if we're wanting our kid, and I deal with this a lot when people are going through a divorce and they say, I want to do what's best for the kids.

But then what they do is they get really sad around the kids. And then if they say, if the kids say, hey, what's wrong, mom? And if they're saying, well, you know, I wish that we weren't getting a divorce, but it's what your dad wants. And you will hear the wife say in that scenario, hey, I'm just being honest with the kids. Are you saying, I need to get rid of my anxiety or my emotion onto my kid so my kid can validate me? And also because it's almost that form of triangulation again.

So then now I have somebody on my side versus me taking ownership of my feelings and then inviting those to come with me to be present for the kid so that the kid doesn't take on those emotions of, oh my gosh, I need to now comfort my mom or dad instead of being a kid. That process alone, that is going to impede the kid's process of being differentiated. It's going to start to parentify a kid, and it's going to cause them to miss out on childhood.

And that's where you start to hear these concepts of the old soul, which sounds pretty cool if you're a blues singer. But if that is just you're showing up in fourth grade and you know how to make all of your brother and sister's lunches and get them dressed and do their hair because mom's really, really emotional and sad because of where their mom and dad's relationship is,

then that is something that is your opportunity in that scenario for the mom to learn what to do with their own discomfort and anxiety, to be able to self-soothe, to be able to self-regulate and then show up and be present to be able to be there for the kids. And either, I mean, the mom, the dad, and I could give examples of both. So let's talk about Schnarch. This is the stuff I've been learning more and more about. And I just think it's so, so amazing, so fascinating.

He built on Bowen's ideas and then he put them specifically in the context, as I mentioned earlier, you've got the marital relationship, but also in the sexual relationships. And here's where it gets really fun. He focused on self-validation versus others' validation because Schnarch argued that a key aspect of differentiation is this ability to self-validate rather than seeking constant and approval from your partner.

And that starts to shift the relationship from being validation dependent to being more autonomous, which is more emotionally mature. And then he's very well known for differentiation in sex and intimacy. So sexual differentiation, and that's the ability to maintain one's own sexual identity in the relationship. And it challenges partners to remain emotionally connected, but distinct in their desires and preferences when it comes to sex and intimacy.

And he had this concept called four points of balance that I'm learning more about that I think is just helpful as a marriage therapist, because he describes these as maintaining a solid, flexible self, a quiet mind and a calm heart, grounded responding, and then meaningful endurance. And these are, they're essential for facing relational and then all kinds of anxiety head on. What does that look like? Maintaining a solid, flexible self.

So an example might be a couple, then they have different interests and leisure activities. The wife enjoys outdoor activities, the husband indoor activities, and a solid, flexible self would be the wife deciding to occasionally join the husband with his indoor activities, maybe going to the theater and then vice versa without feeling like they are betraying their own interests or caving or acquiescing in and or even worse, feeling like now you owe me something.

So they both remain true to their own individual preferences, but they're flexible. There's that psychological flexibility, flexible enough to occasionally participate in each other's interests without resentment and without the, it's not a, I'll only do this if you do this. And then when you are now present and enjoying what your partner likes, that is your opportunity to just be.

And you can admit that these, this might be something that you're not familiar with because that is being vulnerable and differentiated. He also talks about the quiet mind and a calm heart. So example here, And let's just say that you have the husband coming home to find that his partner has not done the dishes as promised. So instead of reacting immediately with frustration, then he takes a moment to calm down, ensuring that his mind is quiet and his heart is calm.

And that approach allows him to address the situation without anger, discussing it in a way that is productive and free from emotional reactivity, because if he is showing up emotionally reactive, he's more than likely conveying this message that now I need my partner to manage my emotions. They need to say the right thing to get me to calm down.

And then Schnarch also talks about grounded responding. So, let's say that when one partner receives criticism from the other about being too involved in their work, then they resist that impulse to retaliate or become defensive. Instead, they stay grounded. They take in the feedback and they respond thoughtfully by acknowledging their partner's feelings and then discussing ways that maybe they can balance their

time better. and that grounded response, that will facilitate a constructive conversation instead of an argument. It will be uncomfortable until it won't. And then meaningful endurance. So the example here might be a couple, they're going through a rough patch where one of them loses a job and then that has put financial and emotional strain on the marriage.

But instead of running away from the issues through distractions like overworking or excessive socializing or phones or porn or drugs or drinking or anything, they endure the hardships meaningfully. They openly communicate about their fears. It's okay. And they try to support each other in finding solutions. Maybe they both need a budget. And again, that's one that I've talked about in the past where it is uncomfortable to sit down and talk about finances.

So we have to deal with discomfort in doing that. But again, budgeting together, exploring new career opportunities for one. So those kind of examples, I think they really show how each point of balance will enhance the way that you manage yourself within the relationship, which promotes a far more healthier your dynamic and which then will eventually lead to much deeper intimacy.

And every one of those, those four points encourages a mature approach, an emotionally mature approach to handling personal and interpersonal challenges. And that is going to start to create this relationship where both people can grow both individually and together. Actually, he had a couple other things too. Holding on to oneself. That's a concept that's pretty, pretty key in Snarsh's work.

And it's emphasizing the importance of being able to stand on your own two feet emotionally within the relationship, even when it's difficult. And then encountering the other. Schnarch believes that true intimacy involves encountering the other person as they are, which is only possible when both partners are sufficiently differentiated to just not merely project their needs and their fears onto each other and saying, hey, take this and now make me feel better about it.

So you look at those people together. Bowen, Schnarch, their theories offer a full view of how differentiation can profoundly affect personal development,

relationship dynamics. And what it does is it really highlights the balance between your individual autonomy and this emotional connection. Bowen Schnarch, their work eliminates, it's a whole path. It's a whole series of tools that will guide you more toward mature, stable, and fulfilling relationships. Let's get into the deep end of the pool. It's so incredibly important for building

deeper, more genuine relationships. You know, we think or we believe or we just simply are so often deeply enmeshed with our partners and with our kids. You know, when I throw out this phrase that we move from codependent and enmeshed to interdependent and differentiated, it means that we need to stop looking at the relationship as two halves making one whole.

No, it's two whole beings who became enmeshed and codependent because they were afraid that if they didn't ensnare this other human, that they would never find another one who would love them. But the relationship then becomes this vehicle for self-growth. Now, the problem is that so many of us have never seen this model in our childhood. And I'm not even talking about parents that are being evil and nefarious and manipulative.

And sure, there were plenty of those parents too. I talk with people daily who have been through some pretty horrific things. I'm even talking about the parents who absolutely didn't know what they didn't know. I don't know if dad's plow broke or his mule gave up the ghost. He might be angry because there's a decent chance that the crops will spoil and they won't get harvested.

And then the family may literally not have food. And yes, I just riffed on that part about the broken plow and crops and spoiling. There's a slight chance that none of that is real or how it works. I really don't know farm talk, but I think you get the point. But for most of us, if we don't pull the snap peas from the planter box and the window seal, we're not going to go without. We're not going to starve.

So I find that for many parents in particular, the anger coming home from the office isn't even about what necessarily happened.

It might be more about dad not feeling like he's living up to his potential because he thought his potential was going to be an astronaut with NASA because the only time he got praise or validation when he was young was when he was either emptying his parents' ashtrays or when he was telling them that someday he'd fly to the moon and then he'd buy his parents a house with all his money. So then when he failed the sixth grade math test, it was not viewed as him needing a tutor.

It was viewed by that same parent who doesn't feel like he's living his best life as the kid being lazy. And for that emotionally immature parent, it becomes just one more thing that is going wrong with his life. His kids don't try hard enough. And so then as he's yelling for his wife to bring his food to him in his chair, because he doesn't feel like getting up, no emotional consistency, differentiation, being able to separate those feelings into this is a me problem.

I'm not where I thought I would be in my life because I don't know where I really want to be in my life because I was never truly able to explore it. So here this person might be in a job that they don't feel passionate about with a spouse that they don't feel connected to. And with a kid that actually knows more about math in sixth grade than he does, which is really the reason why he isn't helping junior with his math homework, because he's worried that he wouldn't even understand it.

And he most certainly didn't grow up with a parent who modeled phrases such as, I don't know, or my bad, that one's on me. Or, you know, your mom's really good at math. Have you asked her? Or honestly, don't worry about the cost, son. Let's get you some help with your math homework, because I honestly can't even believe how much you know at your age. I definitely wasn't as smart as you are at your age, rather than, I never had a problem with math when I was your age.

Interdependence, differentiation, ultimately requires us to be able to learn how to be okay with ourselves, alone with ourselves, and be able to calm our own central nervous systems and to be able to take a pause and respond instead of react and respond to our spouses and our kids with curiosity, not negativity or blame or accusation, not diffusing our frustration or our anxiety into the relationship, but managing our anxiety so that we can then show up in the relationship as

a source of strength and emotional safety. Because the more that we're okay in our own skin, the easier it's going to be to break up that pattern or that whole cycle of the constant buzz of anxiety or worrying about what this person might think that if I say the wrong thing, so I better say it the right way or so that he won't get upset or she won't get upset or projecting onto others as a way to get rid ourselves of our uncomfortable feelings.

This is the long game. This is about raising your resting emotional baseline so you live in this area of having emotionally immature tools lying around all around you. And you not only know how to use them, you can access them at darn near any time. Because sometimes people do know things logically, but they just can't get their brains to buy into actually using the tool.

Or at least they might use the tool of apology, still only after they let somebody know how angry what that person did and how that makes them feel. And then they feel like I need to let that person know. And sure, Sure, maybe they went a little far with their anger and still now they're sorry.

Meanwhile, the person they just unleashed their tirade on will need a minute or a day or a week to even try and recover from or make sense of what this person who claims to care about them just said to them. This is the work that will break up those deeply rooted familial patterns. There has to be a transformational figure, this agent of change. And if you are listening right now, I am sorry. I'm actually not sorry. sorry, I nominate you.

Because if you are resonating with this episode and this content, then A, you have amazingly wonderful taste in podcasts. Or number two, you've obviously done a lot of your own self-work to get to this point. You move from not knowing what you didn't know to know, but you're still not entirely sure of how or always what to do.

And my friends, I believe a lot of that is that change still feels scary and it takes courage and it takes acceptance that you're not going to be perfect, which brings up feelings and about what we're talking about today. We don't really like having all the feelings. Take our old friend anxiety. What's fascinating there is that tackling anxiety is tough because believe it or not, it really does have a purpose.

These patterns aren't random. They've been handed down, like we were saying earlier, or what Bowen discovered through generations and deeply embedded in our own social and familial frameworks. And those are the frameworks that dictate how we navigate life until we have to do some really hard things. So this is actually about fighting our basic survival instincts to move toward a richer, more emotionally fulfilling life.

And that is a journey that then, let's get dramatic here, requires bravery, particularly when it means letting go of immediate comfort for the greater good.

And even more so, improving how we function as individuals and within groups hinges on courage, moral courage, the kind it takes to do what is right, playing the long game for the future, not just what feels right right now, because what's going to feel right right now is alleviating discomfort, getting rid of my anxiety, diffusing it into the family. So now what are they going to do about it? It's about elevating ourselves and our people and our communities and our tribes, our families.

So in this realm of personal relationships, the challenge is really in starting to calm our own anxieties, temper our own anxieties, to foster real understanding, real curiosity, real intimacy. Can I manage my anxiety well enough to see and accept you for who you truly are rather than basically who I need you to be to make me feel better? Can I call my nerves to reveal my true self and then fully engage? These steps feel scary because they are, because they're risky,

but they're also essential for emotional maturity, for building deep, meaningful connections. So if you really look at the complexities of relationships, because there are a lot of variables in relationships, it's like the secret sauce of desire and passion is differentiation. Being uniquely and unapologetically you in the presence of another person. Because when we try too hard to keep our partners content, or we always have them in our comfort zone, we are avoiding genuine intimacy.

So instead of diving into the depths of real, raw, and honest connection, the place where differences are acknowledged and even celebrated and, We instead choose the familiar path of safety, avoiding any potential conflict. Not a big guy. Actually, I'm not a big guy, period. But I usually don't talk about song lyrics yet. I love song lyrics. I've always been the person that enjoyed the meaning behind song, and I want to talk about that to anybody that will listen.

There's an artist named Ben Folds, one of my favorite musicians. He has a song from quite a while ago called You Don't Know Me that he originally performed with Regina Spector. And there are some powerful lyrics that I used to sing at the top of my lungs, not very well, but never really listened to them until recently when I was contemplating going to a Ben Folds concert. But here are the lyrics. You can tell I don't share a lot of lyrics. I'm not about to sing it.

But the lyrics. I want to ask you, do you ever sit and wonder? It's so strange that we could be together for so long and never know, never care what goes on in the other one's head. Things I felt, but I've never said. You said things that I've never said. So I'll say something that I should have said long ago. You don't know me. You don't know me at all.

And then it's a little deeper. Regina Spector jumps in and says, you could have just propped me up on the table like a mannequin or a cardboard stand up and paint me any face that you wanted me to be seen. Then they say that we're damned by the existential moment where we saw the couple in the coma and it was, this is actually the lyrics. It sounds like I'm being grammatically incorrect. It was, we were the cliche, but we carried on anyway. way.

And I think now in the lyrics, I think most of us have seen that couple in the coma year 10, 15, 20, 30. They've settled into that routine, that coma-like routine where they are afraid to have meaningful, deep conversations because they're uncomfortable. And we still get drawn back into safety in our relationships where that safety isn't always the healthiest way to act. You know, we talk about surface things because they are the things that we have the least chance of disagreeing on.

The relationship has started to go stale because now the things that could bring us a real spark, a real passion, like different opinions, different takes on new topics, or re-imagining views on older topics because now we're older and we have more life experience. Do we still avoid those because it might lead to conflict? And what do we do with conflict? We have become experts at avoiding it, giving into it, diffusing our anxiety around it back into the system to be managed by other people.

We find ourselves constantly going back to security versus truly living and thriving, But being willing to be known and seen in a relationship is the way to bring passion, to bring spark, to add life and excitement into the relationship. But it comes with the risk that your partner may and probably will feel somewhat threatened when you step out of your familiar role. And that's okay. That is growth.

You know, the whole crux of the issue is finding a middle ground where both partners can be true to themselves without tearing their relationship apart. And that does become a bit of a dance. I'm not a good dancer, but it can be done. It can be danced. That dance is between being too rigid and not too yielding, where each step is about balancing your personal authenticity with the needs within the relationship.

Time to wrap things up. I think, hopefully, you can see it's pretty clear that understanding and applying these concepts of differentiation, both Bowen's broader family systems approach and then Schnarch's focus on intimate relationships and really what do we do with our discomfort can lead to far more fulfilling and resilient connection.

And if we really embrace our individuality and still maintain emotional balance in the relationship and we have the courage to have more open communication, you are absolutely setting the stage for a healthier and a far more passionate relationship. So as my good friend, Rachel Nielsen does at the end of her podcast called three and 30 takeaways for moms, I'm going to give two solid takeaways from this episode.

So a couple of things that you can work on embracing individuality in the togetherness, differentiation is not about distancing yourself from loved ones, but about being able to express your true self without fear of losing your identity in the relationship.

Relationship and it encourages each person to maintain your unique perspective and your emotional integrity because you are the only version of you that has ever been on the face of the earth so you have your thoughts and feelings because you do that's your unique perspective and it takes emotional integrity to be able to express that and then not get angry or have to defend your viewpoint or break down that of others and that enhances intimacy and mutual respect. How do you do that?

We've been talking about boundaries in the last couple months. Set boundaries. Clarify your own limits and needs within the relationship. Example, if a spouse decides that they need one evening a week to pursue their hobby of painting, they communicate that need to their partner, explaining that this time alone is essential for their personal fulfillment. Cultivate interest. Engage in activities that reflect your personal interests, which might not necessarily involve your partner.

You know this you can start to learn how to be okay being autonomous because that's going to raise your emotional baseline and allow you to show up more confident in the relationship. So let's say somebody, a guy joins a cycling club to connect with his love for biking and just develop some new friendships and his partner doesn't share that same love.

That activity allows him to bring new energy and experiences back to the relationship and opportunities to connect and be curious, which then allows you to the next concept, communicate openly about your differences. Use differences as a strength instead of seeing them as divisive. And these examples I was given, both people have different approaches to finances.

Instead of letting that create tension, we got to start holding regular discussions to understand each other's perspective because you're going to have different perspectives on something like finances because you most likely grew up in fairly different homes and with different relationships around finances. And then the second takeaway, balancing your emotional reactivity, learning to self-soothe, learning to maintain a quiet mind and a calm heart, especially during conflict.

That allows you to be more grounded in your responses, and that will help contribute to far more constructive dialogue instead of destructive arguments. And that balance is crucial. It is necessary for resolving disputes, but also, more importantly, for building a foundation that can withstand future stresses. And how do you implement that, this balancing your emotional reactivity? Good old mindfulness. Regular mindfulness practice, meditation helps with the calm mind.

It helps reduce impulsivity and responses. Develop emotional regulation skills. Learn to manage your emotions. Recognize triggers. Implement calming strategies before a full meltdown or panic attack happens. Journal. Go on walks. Do cold plunges. Eat right. Stay hydrated. All of those things. And this one can be, I hesitate on this one at times, but based on where we've gone today in this episode, you can seek constructive feedback.

I often have a bit of a challenge when couples are not differentiated and somebody says, no, I really want you to tell me what I could do better. And then it's, oh, here comes open season for some emotionally immature comments. Constructive feedback, though, it comes when you can not react defensively. So then you're curious. You would love feedback on how you might handle situations better because your partner has a different viewpoint than you do.

Point out when maybe you notice I'm shutting down during arguments so that I can start to become more aware and then I can actively work on staying engaged. But that is not going to feel safe if I say, no, really tell me. But then when you do, you're like, geez, okay. You didn't have to be mean about it though. Because if you can integrate those principles into the relationship, then you not only improve your own emotional health, but it deepens the connections that you share with your partner.

And one of the cool concepts around that is when you get to that place of being differentiated, you can take that feedback and it doesn't even mean that you have to change. You want to change. You want to be the best version of you you can be. But at some point, you don't just have to acquiesce or give in to what somebody else's opinion of you is, but you're absolutely willing and open to take that in.

So whether you're talking about romantic partnerships or family relationships or even professional relationships, this journey of differentiation, it is the key to a more authentic and far more satisfying interaction with those people around you. All right. If you have questions, thoughts, good examples, feel free to reach out, contact at tonyoverbay.com. I appreciate you joining me and then taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with her song. It's. Music.