Genuine Curiosity: Not All Questions Are Equal – Are You Trying to Understand, Defend, Manipulate, or Control?

Music. Welcome to another episode of Virtual Couch Presents. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and host of several podcasts about mental health, relationships, emotional maturity, navigating faith crisis, you name it, all those wonderful things.

But today we're going to dive into a topic that I will guarantee, I'm not a big all or nothing guy, but I believe everyone has experienced this, whether you realize it or not. So here's a quick question to start us off. Have you ever been in a conversation where somebody asked you a question that the words were words that sounded like a question? And if you were writing this out, there would be a question mark at the end.

Technically, it sounded like they were being curious, but something just felt off. Like maybe your partner said, so you really thought that outfit was a good choice for dinner with my parents? Or your boss asks, I'm very curious about why you would actually approach a client presentation like that and assume that they would like it, that they would appreciate it, or that you would get that deal. Or maybe it was something subtle, like a friend saying, so that's your opinion. That is fascinating.

That is interesting, really. So that's honestly how you feel. Or one of my personal favorites, this one is guaranteed to not land well. So you already cleaned up this. So is this like what you call clean. So that kind of thing.

That's what I want to talk about today. The difference between genuine curiosity and then performative or even defensive questioning. Because I see this so often in my work as a couples therapist and just as a human being. And I think that understanding and being genuinely curious can be a very big game changer in a relationship.

Let me start with a story that I think taught me a lot about curiosity. And more about what it wasn't, it was many, many years ago. I was at one of my daughter's high school track meets. And at that point in my life, I won't say embarrassingly so, but I would say definitely so, my identity was pretty wrapped up in being a runner and not just a casual one.

Now I realize what was I running from? But this is when I had run over 100 marathons and ultra marathons and done 24-hour fundraising events on the high school track to bring in money for the local schools. And I had competed in the famed Super Bowl of 100 milers, the Western States 100 miler, which was kind of in my backyard at the time around Auburn, California, not once, not twice, but three times. And running wasn't just something that I did. It was really a part of who I was.

Whenever I would interact with others, we would pretty much talk about running and I would even sometimes feign frustration of, oh my gosh, is that all that they want to talk about? But let me keep talking about it. But here I am, I'm standing on the infield of a track and I'm watching the events unfold. And a guy that I kind of knew, one of those that in small towns, you feel like you think, I've seen this guy around. I know who he is,

but we've never really talked. We just give each other the head nod. And he comes up to me and our kids were both running and I thought, okay, this is cool. Here's a chance to connect. Now, while my identity was firmly planted in being a runner, I was also well into now my career as a therapist, which I truly believe saved my life. I can honestly say I believe that I was genuinely becoming more curious about people's experience.

And I think that was part of this cognitive dissonance of my identity as a runner, but somewhat feeling annoyed that that was all we were going to talk about, but probably pretty insecure that I really wasn't exactly sure what else to talk about other than running. So I start by asking him about his son. How long has his son been running? What does he really enjoy? What kind of events he enjoys doing?

Because his kid was a pretty good athlete. And then casually, I asked if this guy was a runner too. And he seemed a little bit more bulky, looked like more of a weightlifter. And so honestly, I didn't really know. And then he lit up and he told me, oh, I am a runner. And I did a lot of sprints in high school. I could have ran in college. I love that one. But I don't know,

something got in the way. and he had done a couple of 10Ks, a half marathon, and he had tried one full marathon, but had gotten injured, wasn't his fault. Somebody had probably advised him incorrectly of training. I was genuinely curious about his story. And now I will be honest, at that point, there was probably a small part of me that then hoped he would ask me about my running because that was a big part of my identity.

And he did acknowledge it because I know that he had been at my 24-hour fundraising events a time or two. And I think he had even ran around the track. People would come do that with their kids at odd hours of the night. And most of them would usually stop by, say hi, or I would run with him for a little bit, but he didn't. I remember he would stay on the opposite end of the track. But he did acknowledge that. He said, hey, I know you're a runner.

And I thought, okay, here we go. This will be nice. And then he starts to give me a lot of running advice. Specifically, things that he had noticed when I was doing my 24-hour events when I had been running for 18 hours or so, 20 hours. And these were specific tips on fueling and then pacing. And then he started suggesting some things that I could probably do different in the longer ultra marathons.

I thought to myself, so based on what? This is gonna sound egotistical for a moment, bear with me, but based on watching me from the other side of the track or maybe from the bleachers at those school fundraising runs, I don't really remember exactly what his advice was because I think I was so, I don't want to say blown away. It sounds so, so dramatic, but I think I was just so fascinated that that just didn't really make much sense to me that my brain kind of glitched.

I think he named some sort of food that he thought might help me around hour 20 of a 24 hour run. and I remember nodding and smiling and thought, okay, that would probably be one of the worst foods that I could eat. I don't remember what it was. I don't remember if it was, let's say that it was a curry or something like that, spicy curry, when in reality you're wanting bland bananas and then gels. And as he walked away, he said, this has been really nice. I've always wanted

to pick your brain about running. And I remember thinking, okay, I don't think my brain was picked. I don't think that is what curiosity actually is. I wonder that feels more like an insecurity dressed up in a curiosity costume, or maybe that's some emotional immaturity, or that's a need for validation. And let me go on this tangent for a minute. Let's talk about insecurity. Perhaps, and I know I'm making assumptions, he may have been feeling a little unsure about his own running identity.

And offering advice may have been his way of trying to level the playing field. So instead of asking about my experience, He presented himself as somebody who probably had something to teach me.

Now, if we're talking about emotional immaturity, one of my favorite things these days, rather than being comfortable with his position as a learner, if he was truly interested in ultra marathons or someone who had his own experiences as a half marathoner or just basically as somebody who hasn't run ultras.

Is, instead, he needed to show up with something to contribute, even if it meant assuming an expert role in a space that he wasn't trained in, which without knowing, I knew immediately based off the things he was saying that he honestly didn't know what he was talking about, which did not build trust or connection or emotional intimacy between he and I. If we look at this, like from a validation seeking standpoint, he might've been hoping that I would go, oh my gosh, I have not thought of spicy

Indian curry at mile 80 when my stomach is already being really, really wild or odd. That sounds amazing. You've got great insights or some way to make him feel affirmed or maybe make him feel like he is an impressive individual. Here's the key though. None of those are genuinely curious. Genuine curiosity asks to understand. Not to be seen as smart or helpful. It's more rooted in openness, not in the outcome. And here's one of the big takeaways that we'll explore today.

We're going to talk about emotions and all kinds of things. People feel that difference. There's a huge difference between asking somebody a question to understand and asking a question to defend yourself, to prove a point, to win an argument, or to tee yourself up so that then you can tell your stories. So let me go back to that. People feel the difference. They may not be able to put it into words, but their nervous system knows what's up because we are wired for connection.

We're also wired to detect threats. And so even a question can feel like a threat if it's loaded with judgment or wrapped up in sarcasm. So back to this guy at the track meet, what he wasn't doing was being genuinely curious. He was asking questions. Again, they would have question marks after them, but it felt like more of just a setup to make a point.

He was more of a, hey, let me show you what I know. then, hey, tell me what it's like to do what you've done. Now, as a therapist, especially when it works with couples, I'm even more aware of this dynamic. And lately I've been noticing what I'm almost looking at like a big old confirmation bias cocktail when it comes to how rarely we practice genuine curiosity in our relationships. We're just not that great at wondering about each other anymore.

We're really good at talking, talking at someone, telling them what I think that they are feeling or thinking, great at advising, great at correcting, but pausing. Being genuinely curious, asking from a place of truly admitting that I don't know or that I don't understand, that seems to be really difficult because real curiosity, I think, requires a few things. It requires humility.

It means admitting that we don't have the answer, that we have not necessarily walked in another person's shoes, which makes sense because they are the only version of them. You're the only version of you. We have to admit that their experience might be completely unfamiliar. And I think if we're being honest, that can feel really uncomfortable, Especially if we are tying our self-worth or if our self-worth is tangled up in being right or being helpful or needing to contribute.

Here's the secret, though. Real connection, I believe, starts when you can get rid of certainty. Real connection starts when certainty ends. So let's go a little deeper. Why is it so hard to be genuinely curious? Let's take a look at how that shows up in our relationships and then what it looks like to lead from humility. And we're going to even talk about different types of humility instead of from our ego.

My friend Preston used to say our ego is this adorable security guard that sits on the porch and just protects you. But sometimes it's a little over protective or it's barking at somebody that is not really a threat. Because I think if we're talking about ultra marathons or emotional gridlock in our marriage, one thing is true. You cannot guide someone through terrain that you've never crossed yourself.

So then why is it so hard to simply be curious, genuinely curious about somebody else's life that they are the ones living before jumping in with advice or opinions or directions? Okay, story time. I was in a couple session. It was just a few days ago and we were talking through some dynamics as the couple started figuring out a few things. The husband said something that honestly, I really appreciated. He said that he wanted to be called out on his emotional immaturity.

And that, that sounds great. It's a huge step. But then the very next line out of his mouth was, yeah, and you can call me out. I really want to know what I'm not getting. Again, sounds, sounds wonderful. But then it got really interesting after that. I told the couple that I really admire when somebody in session has the courage to say those things like, hey, old man, slow down, or I lost you there, or that's a lot of jargon, or I honestly don't know what that means.

You seem pretty excited about it, Mr. Therapist, but what am I missing? What does that mean to you? Because here's what that means to me, because part of that therapeutic process, hopefully, if you've got a good therapist, it's not about them just waxing on therapeutic and you are there to just sit at their feet and learn, it's an interactive process.

So yes, I have a certain set of skills, I think as Liam Neeson says, but I want to understand what you are understanding or what you're not understanding. And I know that that can take time as well. That's vulnerable. That is very real. But then the husband added, he said, yeah, because sometimes, and he said, no offense, which I love because that means something he's about to say, he's worried it will be offensive.

And then the husband adds, yeah, because sometimes I don't think you realize that you're not really making a lot of sense. And I thought, okay, that is a fair point, but let's break it down. Because what I just heard was, sometimes when you are talking that I, your client, I actually have a better understanding of what you're trying to say than you do. And therefore, I reserve the right to tell you when you're not explaining yourself well.

And again, on the surface, if you take out my passive aggressive tone, that sounds reasonable. But what it feels like is, okay, I now have to work even harder to make sense to you on your terms of something that you may not really understand. And it's almost like he gets to sit back and his arms are folded and he's saying, no, try again. I am going to actually stay defensive until you put together the exact right combination of words, facial expressions, and tone that feel good to me.

And honestly, trust me, I've done that dance plenty of times when it was more about, oh my gosh, I don't want them to think I'm a bad therapist or I really want validation. I want them to tell me the way you explain things is amazing. But genuine curiosity, it requires active participation, not some sort of passive resistance. You know, it sounds more like, hey, help me understand. Not necessarily, I don't understand. Because that comes with maybe a side order of, so keep trying.

Or it looks like, okay, what am I not getting? Instead of me putting out this energy, if I'm the client here, I need you to keep trying. I need you to keep guessing, almost like a game of charades, until then I can finally get it, until you make sense to me. Because underneath that, you need to make it make sense energy. That's often where the emotional immaturity lives. Because that's the need to be made to feel better. That's the hidden win-win for the more emotionally immature.

If I finally say something that clicks for you, then you get to say, well done. You may now comfortably exist in my presence and we may continue. But if I don't, if it doesn't land, and that could even be a variety of things. Let's say that you are bored, you are hungry, you are lonely, you are angry, you are tired, you are anxious, you're scrolling through your own emotional filters of life, then that could very well be an impossible task for me.

Are you genuinely trying to understand me, especially in the case of, let's say you're going to go visit your doctor or maybe it's the attorney, the dentist, the therapist, the auto mechanic, someone that that is what you are going there for. There's a somewhat of an assumption that, okay, they most likely do know at least some of what they're talking about or possibly more than me, the person coming to them for their services.

So now if I'm sitting back saying, I ultimately need to be made to understand, and then I am not trying at all to try and understand, then maybe you can see where all these other factors can come into play. So it could be an impossible task. And then here's the kicker. Now, if I, let's say as a therapist, if I get frustrated trying to explain myself, now I even look more like the unstable one.

Or let's say that you're in a marriage with an emotionally immature partner and they're the ones that are saying, I still don't get it, keep dancing, keep going, try again. Then eventually I may get frustrated because you're not actively trying to understand. You actually get to stay calm, even concerned. And it eventually shifts into, geez, I was just trying to understand you. Sorry for caring, nevermind.

And now you, the person in that position of trying to explain to the person who is not genuinely curious, now you start to feel like the crazy one, And now the person that is not actively participating or actively being genuinely curious, now you get to look like the victim. So what does the person that is trying to explain in a way that you will understand, what will they eventually do then? They will apologize.

Okay, no, you're right. I'm sorry. I'm just losing my cool. Without really understanding this, I'm continually trying to explain something to you that I don't view you as trying to genuinely understand. So this is a bit of a fool's errand. But then that person, typically, I would then apologize. You would forgive me. And you stay in that one-up position.

And then before we even try to have another, hopefully real intimate conversation, you may have already planted the landmine of, hey, can you just promise me you won't freak out this time like you did last time when all I was trying to do was understand you? And then that just sends the other person walking into the conversation with just a big old backpack full of anticipatory rejection and that cycle will continue.

So back to this couple. So I brought a little more than gentle awareness to the fact that it's actually more of his job and it would mean more to him, It would resonate more to him if he can be the one that can ask for clarification. Now, if I sense that either of them in this couple setting detaches, shuts down, looks confused because I am reading body language, then absolutely, I'll check in. I might ask, hey, I noticed a little sudden shift in energy or it appears that

you shut down right now. Tell me what you're hearing or help me understand. What does that mean to you? Now, that's part of my job. Here's where the real growth happens, though. It takes courage to be vulnerable for that person in that chair that is interacting with the therapist. Or if you're the person and you are talking with someone and you really don't understand, to be able to say, I don't know, especially when you think you should know.

And again, nobody likes to be should on, especially shooting on themselves, which speaking of running, I don't know why this just came to mind. Well, actually, because I'm talking about shooting on oneself, an unfortunate trail pooping incident somewhere around mile 90 of this aforementioned famed Western States 100 mile endurance run. I believe it was the second year that I ever ran. I came upon a runner who was he was squatting right next to the trail, but he was yelling, look, look.

And I thought, OK, honestly, I'd rather not because it appears that he's doing his business and not even that successfully right now. But man, I hear you, brother. We're in this together. 90 miles does a number on those quads. Am I right? But it turns out he was actually screaming, don't look, to which I thought, well, then honestly, don't drop your compression shorts a half an inch off of a six inch mile rutted single track trail.

But I digress. Anyway, back to the point. Are you actually trying to understand? Maybe you're even trying to understand why did I just... Tell that story. Or you might even be trying to make someone else rearrange their words until you feel good about what they said. I would just love to challenge you to be more aware of the difference. That is where the growth begins. Because let's talk about real curiosity. Real curiosity requires self-regulation.

Let's start here because without this piece of self-regulation, curiosity doesn't even stand a chance. Because real curiosity, it requires you to be able to calm your own anxiety, soothe yourself. If you can't manage that inner urge to just react, defend, interrupt, correct, or educate the other person, then curiosity is hijacked. It gets swallowed up by reactivity. I'm a big fan of David Schnarch's work of his four points of balance and differentiation.

And his second point of balance is really important. And it comes into play here, quiet mind and calm heart. If you're not familiar with Schnarch's model of differentiation of self. It is all about being able to hold on to your autonomy, your own sense of self in close emotional connection with others, especially when there's tension.

Because it is much easier, but you're losing your sense of self when you just acquiesce, you give in, you fold into what the other person wants you to do to make them feel better. Differentiation is that ability to stay you without needing the other person to become a mirror or a validator of your self-worth. And let me take one step back the first point of balance that of Schnarch's four points of balance of being differentiated is having a solid but flexible sense of self.

You know who you are, what you value, what you stand for, and you're not rigid or reactive about it. And you move away from this need for others to tell you you're okay, that concept of external validation. The second point of balance, quiet mind and calm heart, is what allows you to stay in connection with others, even when you start to become emotionally activated. Because you can calm your own nervous system without needing the other person

to do it for you. I don't need them to tell me it's okay because I can tell myself it's okay. I can ground myself. I can come into the present moment. I can build in that pause because that paves the way for Shnarch's third point of balance of differentiation, which is a grounded response. That's where you can stay emotionally present. You can show up honestly and you can respond instead of react. You don't have to go too big, but also you don't have to play small.

You can respond. You can come from this place where you are okay. So you know it is okay for you to stay in this conversation. So then if we're talking again about genuine curiosity, then this is sort of the engine. Self-regulation creates this pause. And in that pause, that's where you can notice. You can say, okay, I'm feeling defensive. But I wonder what they're really trying to say versus what I am thinking I am

hearing, the assumptions I'm making. Or that pause is where you can say, I'm noticing this feels like an attack, but maybe they're hurting. And or maybe it is honestly, I am just misunderstanding what might be happening here underneath. It's not necessarily about the literal words, but more about just this energy or this feeling that I have. That's not being passive. That is an internal type of strength. So I've been on two cruises in my entire life and I loved them both.

You throw a little bit of Dramamine in me and suddenly I am floating through life with soft serve ice cream in one hand. and absolutely no idea what day it is in the other. I guess you're not holding that in your hand, but regardless, it is a perfect reset. And I also absolutely love what I do as a therapist.

So when you put me on a cruise with people who would like to talk about things like mental health or parenting or relationships or faith crisis or emotional immaturity or ADHD, that along with the soft serve is my dream vacation. So if you were to see me on one of these cruises and you have a question, you are absolutely not bugging me. And true, I'm diagnosing you, but it's in the most lovable way.

Now, that is why I am truly excited to be the special guest on the I See You Living Cruise, a five-night Western Caribbean cruise, January 24th through the 29th. 2026, with my good friend and cruise mastermind, headliner, and I guess we could technically say maybe cruise director, Julie DeJesus.

And this is honestly the best of all worlds because you're going to be able to get away from the day-to-day grind, connect with people who care about personal growth, mental health, all the things that really matter. Plus, again, you've got ice cream, lava cake. So whether you're working on your mental health or your relationship or looking to just boost your resilience, or you just need an excuse to finally take a vacation, this cruise is exactly what you need.

And parents, good news, kids set sail on this one for free. So you don't even have to hunt down a babysitter. So go to julie-dejesus.com slash cruise, or you can look in the show notes of this podcast episode or in my link tree or anywhere to get all of the details. You can lock in your early bird special. You can reserve your spot for some exclusive dining and conversation with Julie and me.

You can bring your spouse, bring a partner, your friends, any of your favorite overthinkers, or just bring yourself. We would love to have you there. Let's go with a couple of examples.

Let's start in a marriage. If your partner says, you never listened to me. If your initial reaction is, are you kidding me? I always listen. As a matter of fact, you're the one that doesn't listen. I think you're just being overly sensitive. It's pretty obvious that's reactive. That's trying to protect yourself rather than understand them. That is coming from a place of being offended. But if you've built your this self-regulation muscle, that's where you get to take a breath.

Ground yourself, pause, and then, OK, can you help me understand what you're feeling unheard about? Now you've shifted from defensiveness to curiosity, and that opens a door for connection, for more communication. Or think of this in the terms of parenting. If your teenager says, you know what, nobody in this family even cares about me. You guys all stink. then you might want to say, really, none of us care for you? Please, we do everything for you. Who pays for your car insurance?

Who pays for your phone? That's just ridiculous. That is not going to build connection. That is not going to provide emotional consistency, emotional safety, secure attachment for your kid to learn how to grow and thrive. But with self-regulation in place and you build that pause in, you do feel this rising anxiety. I'm noticing that I am starting to get a little frustrated, but then you don't let that hijack or steer the conversation.

You might then be able to find yourself saying something like, hey, that sounds like a pretty heavy thing to feel. Help me understand. Take me on your train of thought. What's happening that's made you feel that way like none of us really understand or support you? You have then created a moment of safety. Now, does it guarantee that the teenager will melt and some really cool music plays in the background? And then you have a connection and you eventually hug it out?

Not necessarily, but you are starting to provide consistency. You've created a moment of safety. You've made space for a deeper conversation. That's the gift of this self-regulation paired with genuine curiosity. Plus, you're modeling that for your kid as well.

Curiosity requires humility. This is a pretty important piece. Now, let's define humility because I'm so curious what that means to you. Because humility, in my opinion, is not weakness. It's not being passive. It's not about being walked on or being a pushover. And it's definitely not the, we'll call it the victim energy version of humility that sounds like, oh, I guess I'm just an idiot. I guess I'm just stupid. I know I shouldn't be thinking that. I never get anything right.

Or, hey, I'm so sorry. Again, I know I'm probably wrong. That's not humility. I really believe that's more like a shield. It's a disarming tactic. And it's often used by the more emotionally mature people to avoid accountability or to elicit some sort of reassurance or validation. It may sound humble. It might even feel somewhat humble. But it actually places the burden back on the other person to now comfort and validate or tiptoe.

Real humility. The kind that comes from differentiation, the kind that leads to genuine curiosity, looks like. Someone who says, hey, I didn't know that. Thank you for explaining. I really appreciate that. Or, hey, you're right. That's my misunderstanding. That's my bad. Or I can really see how that landed a lot differently than I had intended. And I am so sorry that that came out the way that it did. But thank you for bringing that to my attention.

That version of humility is more from a place of strength and confidence. It builds trust. because when you can admit that you are a human being, imperfect, growing, learning, the other person starts to feel safer to be those things too. And in relationships, that really starts to become a turning point. Humility says, my ego doesn't need to win this round. I would rather understand you.

And this is, we're in this relationship for the long haul and I'm secure enough or I'm working on it to not know something and not believe that you are now going to run away screaming and leave me. That's a doorway to connection, a doorway to intimacy and curiosity. Curiosity lives on the other side of that door. Curiosity also requires a secure sense of self. That first point of balance of David Schnarch's four points of balance of differentiation.

Because the truth is, you will hear things like, oh, I thought everybody knew that. To which there's going to be a defensive answer to that. No, no, we don't all. I'm sure there are things that you don't know as well. And when one is truly secure in themselves, their response may sound something like, oh no, I didn't know that. Period. Guilt and shame. I'm often impressed more by the people who tell me that they actually don't know the difference because that's okay.

Guilt, I have done something wrong or bad. Shame, I am bad. even though to me personally they are so significantly different that it truly is something that i i truly wish that everyone knew and understood because i don't believe that shame is productive at all i haven't worked with anyone where shame has been the true driver of change even though we continually shame ourselves or come from a place of shame because we think that That must be what will help.

If shame was healing, then we would all be healed because we're really good at beating ourselves up.

Genuine curiosity requires a willingness to not be the expert. I often refer back to this article that I've shared from Eleanor Greenberg from psychologytoday.com titled The Truth About Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And what I think is fascinating is she talked about something that probably sounds pretty crazy right now, and that is when there was a view or a concept of healthy narcissism.

So I like co-opting her definition of normal, healthy narcissism, and I'm going to insert instead of the word narcissism, ego. And then we'll talk about the opposite of that. And I think you can see where one is going to lead to genuine curiosity and the other not so much. Normal, healthy ego. This is a realistic sense of positive self-regard that's based on the person's actual accomplishments.

It's relatively stable because the person has assimilated into their self-image their successes that came as a result of their actual hard work to overcome real-life obstacles. And because it's based on real achievements, normal, healthy ego, it's relatively impervious to the minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as we go through life. Normal, healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are in our real self-interest, and it's associated with genuine self-respect.

One can think of it as something that is inside of us. Why I think that is significant is that when you can start to operate from this place of, I know what I know because I have really worked hard to know it, then that also comes with, so there are obviously things I don't know, and I don't know them because I don't know them. And it's okay to not know everything.

And that can lead to me being curious. What it also leads to over time is while I say, hey, this is something I know, I am also leaving the door open to, I learned about this thing that I know. From a time when I didn't know it. So, I'm reserving the right to continue to learn and know more, but I'm going to stand in this healthy ego of the things I know, and I'm going to acknowledge the things I don't know.

The opposite of healthy ego from this Truth About Narcissistic Personality Disorder article is pathological defense of narcissism. This is a defense against feelings of inferiority. The person dons a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world that he or she is special.

But inside the person feels very insecure about his or her actual self-worth and this facade of superiority is so thin that it's like a helium balloon one small pinprick is going to deflate it and this makes the person hypersensitive to minor slights that somebody with healthy ego wouldn't even notice so instead somebody with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded they frequently take any form of disagreement as a serious criticism and they are likely to

lash shout and devalue anybody who they think is disagreeing with them. They're constantly on guard trying to protect their status. Pathological narcissism can be thought of as a protective armor that is on the outside of us. The significance is the opposite of healthy ego. This pathological defensive narcissism is from a deep well of insecurity.

If I think that I am supposed to know something about everything or you will think less of me or you will abandon me or you will leave me, then I'm going to make things up and hope that it goes over well. But over time, it does not build connection. It does not build genuine intimacy between humans when they try to communicate or connect. And healthy ego comes from a place of competence, of security.

And I think this ties into this concept of curiosity because when someone, they lack curiosity, it's typically coming from this place of insecurity because they are afraid to ask questions because they may have to admit that they don't know something or that this other person might have a knowledge or a trait or some talent that is different than the person asking.

And when we dip into the world of true emotional immaturity, even getting into the world of narcissistic traits, tendencies, and personality disorder, the problem here is that when someone has an opinion that is different than yours, then from this immature place, they think that they are right and I am wrong. As if there There's only one opinion that can be had. So now they must defend their opinion and break down mine.

So back to curiosity. Hopefully you're starting to pick up on this vibe that it's not just a nice trait to have. It's not just something to think about every once in a while. It's not something that, hey, we value this in small kids. They're just so darn curious before the life's knocked the wind out of their sails. It's actually a milestone of emotional maturity. When we are stuck in this situation.

Place of emotional immaturity, when we're operating from these younger frozen parts of ourselves, then curiosity feels scary or dangerous. It feels like saying, if I say, I don't know, that could open the door to judgment, rejection, feeling small. So instead I'm going to pretend to know, and I'm going to fill the space. I'm going to emotionally filibuster. I'm going to explain, I'm going to advise, I'm going to narrate, and I'm going to try to control the moment often without even realizing it.

The truth is real curiosity comes from a place of security. If you are interacting with someone and they are being genuinely curious, that is somebody that is pretty secure. You cannot be genuinely curious and then desperate to protect your ego at the same time. Now, let's talk emotion. It's important to recognize emotion is not the opposite of reason.

Emotion actually provides us the information that then reason can use.

Let's get a little nerdy. modern neuroscience shows that emotions are processed in the brain even before the thoughts are they fire faster so before we even have a chance to rationalize something we've already felt it and often we've reacted to it i love the example of walking down a road and seeing something out of the corner of my eye that is just a length a long object and we react a visceral reaction of oh my gosh is that a snake then nope that's a stick that is miraculous that

i was already reacting before I even had an idea of what that was. So here comes the psychology nerd alert. In a now pretty famous 2008 study, neuroscientist John Dylan Haynes and his team at the Max Planck Institute used functional MRI technology, fMRI brain scans, to explore the timing of human decision making. So the big question they had was, when do we actually make a decision? Is it in the moment that we think that we've decided or does the brain decide before we're even aware.

Participants in this study were asked to press a button with their left or right hand, whichever one they felt the urge. And the researchers with these brain scan devices connected watched what was happening in their brains in real time. And this is just so wild. Haynes team found that the brain showed patterns that were predicting the person's choice up to seven seconds before they consciously reported making the decision.

Just kind of let that one sink in a little bit. Your brain is already leaning one way. It's already preparing to act before you're consciously aware that you've decided. So in other words, the body, your nervous system, your emotional center, new first. So when we say that emotions are faster than thoughts, we're not just talking metaphorically. Your brain is already processing, reacting, queuing up, shaping behavior before your thinking brain may even catch up.

And that's why curiosity and slowing things down is so powerful.

It's so necessary because most of the time we're reacting before we're even aware that we've reacted. So being aware of that and learning to build in that pause, to notice that I'm starting to react and then taking that time, building that space in to then even be curious with myself first. Ooh, check that out. I was about to say this thing, but now I'm gonna put that aside, step outside of my ego and now ask questions.

Now let's talk about some emotions because emotions are not all the same. They do show up in layers, primary, secondary, and one that I haven't really talked about, instrumental. So primary emotions, those are these gut, real time, raw responses to life, they are often about survival or expressing something that is very important that's been impacted, like sadness from loss or fear from threat, or even anger when a boundary's been crossed.

Secondary emotions come from then how we interpret those primary feelings, how we react to them. Often they're layered on top, like shame on top of sadness or anger on top of fear. The example I love on this one is when my kids would scare me when they were little. If they jumped out and scared me and I was like, geez, guys, come on.

And I express anger, That's actually more of a secondary emotion to embarrassment, that these tiny little human beings just made me lose my mind and potentially drop or spill something. But these secondary emotions, they're the emotions that we learn or we absorb based on how safe we feel expressing what's underneath. I cannot stop the jokes in my inner monologue. And I know that humor is typically a secondary emotion.

That's why so many comedians have a little bit of a, maybe a darker, more tortured past because they've had to joke to make up for the feelings of sadness or not feeling like they are seen or understood. I have a theory, that's all this is, that then over time, if your secondary emotion of humor is so consistent, then does it move into your primary emotion? That then your immediate reaction is a joke.

Instrumental emotions are pretty fascinating. They're used more strategically, and these are the ones that we might not even realize that we're using to influence somebody or gain control. Think of a kid who cries to get out of a task, and you sense that it's a little bit fake. My grandson, Red, who's barely over a year old, can do little cry eyes, sad eyes, and it's adorable, but it's his way you can already see of wanting to get attention.

Or I don't know if it's to necessarily get out of something or maybe to get something. Or an adult who might use passive aggressive sighs or tears, not from primary pain, but to shift the mood. I am still very fascinated by interrogation videos. A lot of times my social media feeds show them. I watched one not long ago, and it was a woman in court, and she was making the faces of someone that was very sad.

And the person that was in charge of this YouTube channel pointed out that she would even grab a tissue, but there's no moisture coming out of her eyes. And then when a question would be asked it was amazing how quickly she could just be right back in the present moment that these and I will sound judgmental but I will own this one but it did not appear to be how a really truly sad empathetic.

Weeping person would react but it looked like this person was using these instrumental emotions as a way to try and shift the mood to move it over to about them And to be fair, they're not always manipulative, but they're often less about what's being truly felt and more about what results someone hopes to get. And not long ago, I was overhearing an adult who needed help with something. And instead of just saying, hey, is there any way that you could help me?

They said, oh, I don't know what I'm going to do. And it just didn't even sound like this person. And the people that they were talking to helped them. It is fascinating to see that it was rewarded. Let me talk about anger for just

a second before we move on past emotions because I really find anger very fascinating. Anger is a big one in relationships and anger is one of these that can be either a primary or a secondary emotion. Primary anger comes from something real, being wronged, being violated, being betrayed, a sense of injustice. If your partner is unfaithful and you say, I'm so angry at you, I didn't deserve this. That's primary, it's vulnerable, it's honest, it invites connection.

Even if it's hard, it says I'm hurt and I need you to see that. Secondary anger, though, is more like armor. It's the lashing out in reaction to something that happened. Let's go back to this example of if I am embarrassed, if I am scared, and then I get angry. Knock it off, you guys. It's not funny. I'm angry because I'm embarrassed. It's not about trying to share this pain or be heard. It's about shielding it. And so then that one doesn't build bridges between people. It's going to burn

the bridge down. It's going to put more distance between two people. Now, when we confuse the two, I'm talking again about primary and secondary emotions, or when we act from secondary emotion and then we'd call that our truth, we can start to do some damage in our relationships. It's so important to learn to recognize these emotional layers and then being honest about where your emotions are coming from because that will help you show up with more clarity and less reactivity.

And as we have identified, when we can be more authentic, when we can eliminate that reactivity, when we can do that, then you can show up with more genuine curiosity. You ask better questions, ones that are rooted in genuine, wanting to know and understand somebody instead of some emotional defensiveness or trying to prove somebody wrong or defend your own fragile ego. So let's talk a little bit about how you can feel the difference. And this is where I go back to wanting you to trust your gut.

Now, in the world of emotional immaturity, I covered a concept that I was talking about, emotional reasoning, or if I feel it, it must be true. And on that episode, it was part two of my exploring all things emotionally mature podcast series. I did make a distinction that I want you to start from a place of trusting your gut. The thing that I want people to be aware of, though, is that that is a childhood adaptation. That for kids, if I think mom and dad are mad at me, then they are mad at me.

So then when a parent is even being very kind and gentle and saying things the kid doesn't want to hear, the kid will often say, stop yelling at me. And if you are a parent, you've inevitably got to the point where you're like, I'm not yelling. And they're saying, yes, you are. And you're so mad. I'm not mad, bud. And I'm not yelling. And then eventually you are mad and you say, I'll show you what yelling is. So that's the immature version.

But I do want to start from a place of, okay, I feel it. I want to acknowledge that something seems off. So when somebody says something and you can, you start from a place of, you can tell this just feels, something feels off. You know, when there's genuine connection. And I think the genuine curiosity is just, it feels safe. Let's say we're starting from a place of you, you can tell there's a hidden agenda because that's not you being paranoid.

We start from a place of that is your brain doing its job? Because our social brains are wired with a thing called mirror neurons. And while I am not a neuroscientist, I love the concept around mirror neurons. I'm acknowledging the fact that there may be parts of this that I don't even know, that I don't know. But my understanding is that these mirror neurons do help us sense what other people are feeling. It's like we're looking into a mirror or we're trying to read the room.

We're trying to pick up on their energy, the subtle nuances that are there to protect us initially. So when somebody is being performative or they're being sarcastic or they're being defensive, we don't just hear it because we might definitely hear it, but we will feel it. And we want to start from that place of, I do feel it. I want to make space for that. I want to acknowledge that this something feels off.

And that's why people do shut down when they sense that your curiosity maybe isn't genuine. Now, I hope that we're going to be able to have the tools to say, hey, I'm noticing that something feels off here. Tell me more about why you're asking that question or help me understand. Because your body is telling you this isn't safe. So let's build a pause in here and let's just put our guard up a little bit.

Because I don't want to hand away buttons that this person can push, especially if they're in the world of emotional immaturity or even all the way up to narcissistic traits or tendencies. Because handing those buttons over, it might feel good in the moment. But then if you are in relationships where that person comes back and then uses those against you down the road, then it turns out that your, this internal radar or internal GPS of emotions was correct.

Hey, everybody, let me take a quick minute to talk to the guys who are listening to this episode. I want to really hone in on the guys who are starting to wake up to the fact that something in your life just isn't quite right. Let me ask you this. Have you ever caught yourself thinking things are going to get better?

Things will be better when the kids grow up or when you get in better shape or when you get the promotion or when you finally have a little more time or after you finish all eight seasons of this Netflix show that you are invested in. That is magical thinking. It'll get better later. And that's what gets people to this place where they'd feel like they're not living their very best life. So welcome to later. It is now later. It is time to do something about it.

Yeah your life maybe isn't playing out the way that you thought it would and you don't know why or maybe you think that you do but nothing that you try seems to work or it actually seems to make things worse and now you're stuck kicking the can down the road and at this point you've kicked that can so far down the road that you might qualify for a guinness world record in emotional deflection but here is the truth it is time to stop letting your

job your marriage your bank account your kids your fear your ego dictate how you show up in your own life i have been fortunate to work with men from all walks of life, athletes and politicians and doctors and lawyers and engineers and salesmen, you name it. And the truth is, our struggles are far more alike than you think. The key is not getting older or wealthier or more shredded at the gym. It's admitting that you need help.

Now, this may sound like a riddle, but I promise you it's not because I'm actually not a very big fan of riddles. So hear me out. You don't know what you don't know. And that's okay, because how could you know what you don't know? And the things that you've learned in your life up to this point were also things that you did not know until you learned them. So it would only make sense that as you continue on life's path as a human, there is a lot more to learn. That can be an awesome thing.

But for some reason, men in particular have a tough time admitting or understanding this, but it is the key to the next phase of your life. And I can guide you down that path because real change doesn't come from chasing more. It comes from learning to look inward and confronting something inside of you that I promise you, you're probably not even aware of. So that is where my emotional architects men's group comes in. I promise that I do have the tools. You just have to show up.

Whether it's business, marriage, parenting, intimacy, health, finances, or friendships, the root of most of our struggles as men in particular is emotional immaturity. And guess what? We are all emotionally immature. But when you learn what it is, when you learn what it looks like, how it shows up in all the areas of your life, when you learn how to embrace it instead of running from it, everything starts to shift.

So for less than the cost of one therapy session a month, you will get access to two group calls a month with like-minded men, guys who are ready to grow, with a clear, well-crafted roadmap that teaches you the things that you didn't even know that you were missing, as well as you'll have one-on-one access to yours truly. That's me. And a place to ask every question you've ever wanted answered. You name it, we'll answer it. So if you have been waiting for some sort of a sign, well, this is it.

So go to TonyOverbay.com or email me at contact at TonyOverbay.com and ask about the Men's Emotional Architects group later is today. And character transforming, life-altering change is ready and waiting for you. Now let's get back to the show. Let me throw some real-life examples and we'll

try to make more sense of this. So let's look at a marriage. Say partner number one says, I'm just kind of feeling overwhelmed lately with everything at home and everything at work. So if we've got their partner who is not being so curious, then these words might sound curious. Really, what exactly are you overwhelmed by? And then they might even jump in and say, I mean, I've been trying to do more around the house. I did the dishes last night.

So that question can sound like an engagement, but really it's somewhat of a defensive counterattack because then it becomes about you expressing your emotions. That person saying words that could put a question mark behind them, but then it slips into their validating their own effort. They're really not trying to understand you. Now, a more curious version of that might be the partner saying, oh, you're feeling overwhelmed.

Hey, tell me more about that. What has that felt like? What are you experiencing? Or tell me what's the hardest part about what you've been going through lately. That's curiosity. And hopefully you can even feel that. That's a little safer. It's more open. It's coming from a place where the person asking the questions is more grounded. Now let's, let's jump into this world of parent, teen, I don't know, showdown. So teenager, and I want to jokingly say, this is all hypothetical.

I'm sure no one's ever experienced this exactly. Teenager saying, you know what? I just think school is pointless and I'm never going to use any of this. Parent, not being so curious. Oh, really? So you think everybody should just drop out and become an influencer or a YouTuber? So that is sarcasm disguised as curiosity. The more curious version is, oh man, that sounds hard. First of all, tell me how I can show up for you.

Is there anything I can do right now? I really want to understand what part of school feels the most pointless right now. Let's move into example three. We will say that you're all gathered around the dinner table and you're with your friends. And somebody just says, honestly, I don't even think that college is worth it for everybody these days. Now, if you are being more performative and not curious, really, should people just drop out and then just hope for the best?

I mean, I'm so curious what you mean by that. They've even said the word curious in there. And again, you could put a question mark at the end of that, but that sounds more like it's being accusatory. If you were being genuinely curious, then that is interesting. Take me on your train of thought. I'd love to know why you came up with that conclusion. Tell me what your experience is. The shift in tone and intention and emotional safety becomes everything.

Let's talk about maybe a litmus test for genuine curiosity. So how do you know which kind of curiosity you are bringing? Because we will never exactly know what the other person is going through. So this is about you. It is a you thing. It's a you thing to determine whether or not the person who is asking you questions is being genuinely curious because that will go a long way with, do you feel safe enough to open up?

Or even I might open up and I have to accept the fact that if that person wasn't genuinely curious, then that could come back to bite me. But if you are the person that is in a relationship. And you are the one now that is listening, I would love to help you understand, am I trying to understand this other person or am I trying to win? Am I okay if their answer challenges what I believe? Because it's okay for us to already have beliefs.

We're human beings. We need to be able to check those beliefs. Step outside of that ego so that I can become more genuinely present and curious because I want to know this person. Would I ask this question even if I knew that I wouldn't get the response that I want? Because if the answer is yes to those, then congratulations because you are locked into genuine curiosity mode. That is where you are going to have a potential for genuine emotional intimacy and connection with another human.

And the good news is you can rewire this. Even if your default mode has been performative or defensive, the fact you're listening to this is amazing and you can retrain your brain to show up differently. Just like these emotional styles, they're not fixed in stone, neither is your questioning style.

Because every time that you learn how to pause, that you choose to pause, regulate your emotions, then ask a question from a place of openness, you're starting to rewire the way that you connect with other people. You're starting to build emotional safety. It's going to start to feel more genuine and authentic, and it will come from a place of confidence. And then you become somebody that people feel safe talking to. And that safety is what allows people to be more vulnerable and more growth

minded. And it just gives you this opportunity for real connection. Let's walk through how emotional immaturity and genuine curiosity show up out in the wild. I'll give you four real life narratives and each one is going to start with a knee-jerk reaction. And then let's explore how curiosity would lead to a better path. Parenting.

From explosion to exploration, you walk into your teenager's room and it's a mess. It's a disaster. Clothes, dishes. How many times have you said, hey, can you not bring dishes into your room? Or there's just empty soda cans. you could basically do like an entire archaeological dig and find things that you haven't seen for years. And there might even be new species of things that are growing or happening under their bed.

So your first reaction might be, seriously, I have told you so many times to clean this up. And I just feel like you don't respect me. You don't respect this house. And you take advantage of me. That is this concept of emotional reasoning. It's black and white thinking. You feel disrespected. So you assume it is disrespect. This is what they are doing. Case closed. Now, curiosity would look like. You walk in there. Here's my opportunity for growth. I pause. I take a breath.

It's necessary. I got to slow down my heart rate. I got to lower the cortisol, the adrenaline. I have to be able to be grounded in order to be genuinely curious. Hey, how's your day? Tell me what's going on here in your room. Or if you feel so bold, hey, I'm noticing your room seems a little bit disheveled. Help me understand what's going on for you today. Because you might learn that they had a brutal test. They might have had a fight with a friend, or they're just feeling overwhelmed.

And now it doesn't excuse the mess, but now you're in a conversation instead of a power struggle. Tell me more, help me understand. In that scenario in particular, parenting becomes the long game, if we're being honest. Now let's talk about that in the context of marriage. Your partner walks in

and they don't greet you and you react. No kiss, no hey, or are we not even doing eye contact now? So your brain probably jumps in with that observation. You make a judgment, they're mad at me. And you might even say that out loud. Okay, what did I do this time? What is going on so much that you can't even say hi to me? So maybe even, I don't know, slam a drawer or you, now make it about you and huff and puff your way out of the room.

Passive aggressive. That's mind reading. That's magical thinking. That's emotional immaturity. Now, curiosity would look like this. Hey, you seemed quiet when you came in. How was your day? Take me on your train of thought. One of my favorite phrases. Is everything okay? Now, you may discover that they're just in their own head about work. It's not about you. They may not be angry at all about you.

They could be ruminating or overthinking. And, The tension then has this potential to lift almost instantly and you didn't have to read their mind or play defense. What can be difficult is if you are an anxiously attached person like myself, it can be difficult to not check in if they aren't completely better in your opinion in five or 10 minutes. That's when you're going to want to check yourself and not continue to say, are you sure?

Because you sure seem like you're still off. I have to trust that I provided them space to engage or talk with me. And if that is something that they don't feel safe doing or want to do right now, that's okay because we're playing the long game. We're in a relationship here. Let's turn it into the workplace setting. So you're in a meeting and a project that you worked on gets brought up, but only your coworker gets credit. And so then you stew all day. That guy's trying to make me look bad.

I can't believe that no one noticed that I did anything about that or how could he take all that credit? That's emotional fusion. I'm wanting these people to recognize my efforts and I don't want them to think this or I don't want to say it because I don't want them to think that I'm being an egomaniac or so I'm managing people's emotions. I'm wanting somebody to read my mind. Now, what would curiosity look like? Hey, I noticed the project came up in the meeting and I didn't hear my name

mentioned. Can we talk about how we're presenting things moving forward? You're not accusing, you're clarifying, you're not demanding, you're trying to have a dialogue. That does not guarantee that the other person is going to say, oh my gosh, you're so right. But at some point you're beginning to be more curious and learn to be grounded in these interactions because that's the person that you want to be. Let's talk about an interaction with a neighbor. You wave at your neighbor,

then wave back. Maybe that's been a pattern over time. You begin to think, man, what's their problem? So then you avoid, and I'll show them. I'm not going to wave at them for a while either. And then they will see something. Curiosity might even be going over and approaching them. And hey, I waved and said hi, and I didn't see, it seemed like you looked at me and didn't wave back, which is fine, but I'm so curious. How are you doing? Is everything okay? Or what's going on in your life?

This is based on a real story. And in that scenario, the guy didn't have his glasses on. Honestly, he was a little bit older. He also didn't have his hearing aids in. And so that helped my client make a lot more sense of what was happening. But I've had situations as well where somebody was grieving a loss or they honestly didn't see you.

But either way, you were able to not only just clear the air so that you didn't sit there and make up stories and ruminate, but you also were able to have a genuine connection with another human.

Curiosity is a muscle and you have to practice it curiosity isn't passive it's not pretending that everything's fine it's not avoiding conflict curiosity is it's a maturity skill and it takes regulation it takes reflection and it takes a lot of reps it's saying i may not know the full story but i care enough about myself and this other person to find out and like any skill it's going to be pretty wobbly at first and it might be wobbly for quite some time because you'll still fall into these

old patterns. You'll overcorrect. You'll catch yourself sometimes mid-reaction and wish you could rewind. And while you can't literally pull a Superman and go around the globe backwards a few times and rewind time, you can ask for a do-over. That's okay. It's growth.

Because over time, the fact that you're aware of this, the fact that you're trying to be more genuinely curious and you're getting these reps in, then you'll start to notice when the story in your head isn't really matching the moment. And you'll be able to catch these assumptions before they even escape your mouth. Staying grounded is such a key component of being more genuinely curious. If you can stay grounded long enough to learn to respond.

Instead of react. And that's where you begin to lead with curiosity. And what it feels like to be you is I am genuinely curious. I have my thoughts, I have my opinions, but I really want to know. I really want to understand what this other person's experience is.

And before we wrap this up, I do want to throw a couple of acceptance and commitment therapy tools in here that I think are important. Your brain's job is narrating. It's to narrate, it's to judge, it's to predict. That's not a flaw. It's just wiring. It's just the way it is. But the challenge is if you believe every thought that you have is true, now you're at the mercy of that script and your brain is just going to think a whole lot of words, a whole lot of thoughts.

Instead of things like, man, I'm just so awkward. Everybody thinks I'm annoying. It is very powerful just to put a little bit of space there. Oh, check that out. I'm noticing I'm having the thought that I'm awkward. And the story my brain is telling me is that people find me annoying. It creates space. It slows the spiral. It gives you a chance to step back and say, is that helpful? Is that a productive thought or is it just the familiar? And in ACT, there's a concept called self as context.

One of the best ways to think about this is you're the sky. You're not the weather. You are not your anxiety. You are not your worst day. You're not your best performance. You're not even the role that you're playing right now, a parent or partner, me as a therapist, podcaster, friend. You're the one observing it all. Your thoughts and feelings, they are the weather. They roll in, they roll out.

You, you are the big, beautiful sky. And when you remember that, curiosity comes a lot easier because you're no longer defending the storm, you're watching it, you're learning from it and choosing how to respond to it. And that way you can attach more meaning to the parts of the weather that you really appreciate and you can tolerate the parts that you don't. Because another key concept in acceptance and commitment therapy is this conversation.

Term psychological flexibility. It is about growing in real time. Because I cannot stress enough, every single moment is new. Every conversation that you're having is the first time you're ever having that conversation, even if the words sound familiar and the person is the same. It is uncharted territory. You've never been this version of you in this very moment with this person right now before. Because when you maybe were talking to this person in the past, It was in the past.

So of course, you don't need to have all the answers, but your brain is this predictive engine and it is seeking certainty. And so it is going to start to make predictions. Psychological flexibility says, I'm going to stay with what's here right now. I'm going to accept what I feel and I will make this choice, this choice point and choose my next move based on who I want to be, not what I want to avoid. And that's where the work becomes, the good work. That's where the emotional maturity lives.

I've got my four pillars of a connected conversation. And one thing that I don't talk enough about is when I'm working with individuals, I will call it the one person four pillared conversation. So even if the other person that you're interacting with isn't equipped with these tools, you can be, you can still show up with the four pillars. You can provide somebody the benefit of the doubt or that there's a reason why they are showing up this way or they're saying the things that they're saying,

which allows you to then accept their perspective. Their view makes sense to them. My pillar two, you cannot tell somebody else that that is ridiculous, wrong, or I don't believe them. Even if I think what they're saying is ridiculous, I do believe it's wrong and I don't believe them because that is their perspective. That is their view, which then leads to pillar three, which is questions before comments. Now's your time to seek to understand. Here's where the genuine curiosity comes from.

It's asking more. It's trying to understand. It's putting my ego aside. It's reacting less. It's responding more. And then fourth pillar, not going into any kind of victim mindset or victim mentality. I'm going to embrace the conversation. I'm going to stay in it. I'm not going to tap out. So if I go to someone and I say, hey, tell me about your day. Help me understand what's been going on for you. And they say, I've really been in my head.

And I just, it seems like nobody's there for me. and that is hard for you because you're literally right here for them right now. I'm assuming good intentions. I'm giving them that benefit of the doubt. I'm accepting that their view of what is going on right now is their view. So I'm not gonna tell them they're wrong. And then I'm gonna go into that third pillar. I am going to say, tell me more, help me understand. What's that feel like for you?

And as they express themselves, now I'm understanding more about them and I'm gonna stay present, pillar four.

Now, at that point, when they feel heard, then I can say I appreciate you sharing that that helps me understand you I think one of the traps we're into is they're saying I know exactly how you feel which nobody truly knows exactly how we feel but I'm a I'm grateful that you've shared that with me and that helps me understand your experience more now first of all that does sound difficult and how can I show up for you because

sometimes when you put it that way somebody can say things like I guess I just really need to be heard or I really do want your opinion on what you if they say think I should do then that's Well, I can give you my opinion on what I'm assuming that I would do if I were you in that situation, but I don't know what it feels like to be you. But all of that comes from a place of leading with curiosity. You are holding on to yourself. You stay differentiated.

And even if the other person doesn't meet you there, you will walk away knowing that you showed up the best way that you could. More emotionally mature, kind, clear. Let's wrap this thing up. True vulnerability means, it does mean owning what you assume. Sometimes the most vulnerable thing that you can say is. Hey, I think I made an assumption here. I assumed that you meant this. Or I thought I understood, but I might have missed something.

I would love to hear you. I would love for you to be able to clarify. Or I was so sure I was right, but I am so open to hearing more. Because that kind of vulnerability builds trust. It doesn't weaken your authority. It earns your respect. Because curiosity does not mean giving up your voice. It means making room for someone else's. And that's where emotional connection starts to begin. And let me give you just a couple of takeaways that you can

leave today and start to do. Catch your reaction. And if you can, name the thought. Start paying attention to your initial reaction in these moments of tension. The next time that you feel defensive or dismissed or rejected, pause and ask yourself, what is this story my brain's telling me right now? And try to use the language like, I'm noticing that I'm having a thought that they don't respect me instead of, they don't respect me.

Or, oh, check that out. I'm noticing that I'm starting to feel anger instead of I'm angry. That simple shift helps you step back from the thought and it does start to open doors to curiosity instead of reactivity. And I would highly recommend that you practice this one person four pillar conversation. Choose an interaction this week, maybe with a partner or a child, a coworker, or even the neighbor who didn't wave and then intentionally walk through the four pillars.

Give that person the benefit of the doubt or there's a reason why they're doing what they're doing. Accept their perspective because it's valid to them. And if you are telling them that isn't what I said or that isn't what I remember, then I've just told them what their experience is wrong. Now, I can still hold on to what my experience was, but first I want to seek to understand them with an open-ended question.

And I'm going to embrace the conversation instead of shutting down, instead of trying to avoid it. And then even if the other person doesn't reciprocate, notice how different you feel when you lead with emotional maturity and you lead with curiosity. And maybe the most difficult thing, but it could be the most powerful, is say the vulnerable thing. At least once or twice this week, practice real humility by saying one thing

that reflects emotional ownership. And that might sound like, I think I made an assumption or, hey, that's on me, my bad. Or I might not have been seeing this because clearly, can you help me understand? I really want to know you or that's on me. I thought I was being clear, but I'm sure that something that I said might have been taken the wrong way.

Saying something that shows openness and a willingness to be wrong builds trust and it reinforces the identity of somebody who values growth over their ego. Okay, hey, thank you for sticking with me. That's all I have for you today. If you ever caught yourself asking a question with a little bit of an edge or hoping the other person gives you the right answer so that you feel better, just remember you, you are not alone. That's part of being a human being, but you can start to shift it.

And that shift starts with being curious, genuinely curious. I would be grateful if you subscribe and leave reviews and share this with somebody who you think might benefit from maybe softening their questions into true, genuine curiosity. Until next time, I encourage you all keep showing up with presence. Be present. Not necessarily feeling like you have to protect that ego. Be curious. And I will see you next time on the Virtual Catch. Music.