Music. Oh, and this doesn't, it doesn't give us the cool countdown. Like, I don't get a 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. So we are recording, Rachel. Oh, why, thank you. I'm glad to be here. I would have counted you down. I do also have to tell you, you can set it up to have the countdown. Can you really?
Yes. Squadcast has that capability. I feel like if we wanted to run this on both my virtual couch and my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, what I should say to you right now is, I think you're wrong. I don't think it's, I don't think you can do that. I can gaslight you, even though I have no idea, and you know that you can do it. But I'm saying, I don't think so, Rachel. Yeah, well, I'm pretty sure, Tony, because I haven't set up that way on my podcast, but whatever, okay.
If you don't believe me. Okay, now watch this, then I will move right on and ignore everything you said, because that's what a true emotionally immature person does when they may be wrong, because they can't be wrong. But I digress. Welcome to a very, very special episode of The Virtual Couch. This is my guest, Rachel Nielsen. Rachel is host of three and 30 podcasts for moms.
And one of my favorite people, well, because I think I was just saying, I may have even said it in an episode recently where this will probably be, I don't even know, 390 something episode. And you were so kind to have me on when I was but a podcasting neophyte, and you have solid takeaways on your episodes. And if I remember correctly, you can tell me, you were saying, okay, so I need three takeaways. And I was kind of saying, I don't really do that, Rachel.
I just kind of talk and, is that what you remember? Yeah, but we're a good team because you would talk and then I would say, so that's your takeaway, right, Tony? And you'd say, oh, that is my takeaway. So together we make a good team. I can bring you back to the takeaways and you provide all the wisdom. Exactly, but what I think is, and I'm being so serious about this, is the takeaway is homework.
And I think people really, I believe people actually do like homework and my therapist brain gets in the way so often And I'm used to then sitting with somebody each week, and you give them the homework, they don't do the homework, they come back, and then they feel bad about it to the point where then at some point they maybe don't even come back, or you know they're making up an excuse of, man, I meant to do it, but then all these things happen.
And I've even gotten to the point where I wanna say, oh, it's okay if you don't. I mean, you're human, things get in the way. And so I think that you're in my relational frame, if I wanna get all nerdy in psychology, of when I think about giving homework, I even think about, I feel like that's what your takeaways do is it gives people these actionable items to take away from the podcast. And I think that's really.
Necessary. So I appreciate that. Well, thanks. Yeah. I have found that busy moms have busy brains and they need some takeaways. Otherwise it's like they listen to the whole conversation. They're like, that was great. But do I remember anything that I learned? No. And in fact,
I even recapped the three takeaways at the end. And I have had so many moms tell me how grateful they are for that because they're listening and then they get interrupted by a kid and then to to just have that quick recap at the end. They're like, okay, I can maybe actually remember something from what I just learned.
Yeah. Well, and I think you're teeing us up very well talking about moms and I'm gonna be so intentional that we were having a conversation a week or so ago just asking you what you're up to lately, and you were talking about a course that you are about to, what's the way that, what do the kids say these days? Drop, start, launch. I don't know, I say launch. Launch, okay. But I'm not a kid. Okay. OK, so of course, you're about to launch. And this is time sensitive.
So I just wanted to get you on here and talk about it. Because I really, really appreciate the work you do with busy moms. A large percentage of the population of people I work with and that listen to the virtual couch are busy moms. And so my heart goes out to the busy mom and not even trying to be humorous. But I mean, I can honestly say I've never been a busy mom. So as much as I try to provide help and content, you live the life of a busy mom.
And so kind of take it away. I mean, tell me about the course and tell me about dates that people need to know. And let's just start talking about what you're offering. Yeah. So this is my Self-Assured Motherhood program. It is like my signature program that only opens once a year. So when I told you that, it's like a 10-day to 10-day enrollment period. And you were like, let's get you on the podcast. So thank you very much for being willing to bring me on.
It is a nine-month long program, which I know for a lot of people seems like, whoa, I don't know how I can commit to that. But honestly, real change requires slow, steady work. It does. It really does. And for most of us, we aren't going to do that kind of slow, steady work without some sort of outside accountability. And so having this weekly class that moms can attend, it's 60 minutes long. You can either attend it live on Zoom or just listen to the replay that's on a private podcast feed.
If you can just fit in 60 minutes a week, and then there's a corresponding homework assignment that'll take you about 20, most of us have 90 minutes a week that we could carve out if we needed to. And over the course of nine months, we covered nine different principles of becoming a more self-assured mom, a month per principal. And the transformation that women have seen in this program is incredible.
And it's so humbling for me as the creator of it. Every time I end a session and I read the reviews and I hear from women saying how much it's impacted their life, I'm just like, whoa. But it's not obviously not just me. It's also the work that these women are putting in, learning how to know themselves better and bring the best of themselves to their lives. So I had no idea. I knew that was the nine months, but I didn't know the reason behind that. But you're so right.
And I love talking about implicit memory, what it feels like to be you is formed by the slow residue of lived experience. So you're so right that people want that change, you know, the old three week to a change myth, that is so, I think it does more damage than good, but if somebody can settle in for nine months, that's amazing. Do you have people that, do they feel like a tribe, a community, a group? I mean, do people get to know each other really well?
Yeah, absolutely. I think the women who really take it seriously and show up and they get to know each other and you just feel a real sense of camaraderie with other people that are doing the same kind of work as you, that are sort of values aligned, that care about the type of intentional parenting that you care about, that are going through the ups and downs. And I'm always very open and share my highs and my lows. I mean, I'm honest about
my lows in motherhood. And I think that that really bonds a group together when we can also share. I lost it this week. I really messed up. And how are we going to rally? And it's a really special, special place for women to be a part of. So I'm grateful to you for helping me get the word out about it. So it's interesting you say that too. I have in my notes that if we ran out of things to talk about, which I'm not worried about, but that I wanted to even talk to you about. I
love following you online or on social media and how open you are about everything. I mean, I think even back during all times political, you'd made some comments that I loved and and then your own. Faith journey and and just parenting challenges and I mean if somebody is not following you I think there's so much gold there but then to have an opportunity to work with you in a group
is really neat too. Yeah and I'd say I'm even more vulnerable in that group because I can be like there's some things especially now that my kids are getting a little bit older I feel like I can't share all of the ups and downs of parenting because it's their life to it's their business to my kids. But I do feel like in this private group, I can be more honest about some of the hard stuff. I know they know me. They know my kids. They come to love my kids over the course
of this program, you know? And so it really is a special place for me to share my heart. And I think that that makes other women feel comfortable sharing too. I made the joke earlier, we can get this over on the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast. But what's fascinating about that one is I do get get more feedback on that podcast than I think I ever anticipated. And it's so many people sharing their stories and, and that formerly felt like they were alone or nobody else understood.
And then I've got this private Facebook group where it just that camaraderie, I think people just really want that sense of community and sense of purpose. So, so I, I love the fact that you're bringing a lot of people together that probably do feel like they're, they're. Pretty isolated or alone. Do you get that, that vibe from people that come into the course?
Oh, yeah. I mean, I've had women say that they had no idea that there were other mothers that felt like they do, that felt lost and a little unmoored in motherhood, or who yelled. They didn't know other moms yelled at their kids sometimes. They didn't know that other moms were missing a sense of purpose until they got in this community and looked around and said, oh my gosh, I'm not like a weirdo. There's a lot of people who feel the way I
I feel. And of course, there's different iterations of people's experiences, but there's a commonality of the experience of parenting that is pretty universal when you really get to the heart of it. And I think that comes through in this course. I love it. I love it because all the cliches, there is no instruction manual and that sort of thing are true. But then when I start getting into the therapeutic modality, I love acceptance
and commitment therapy. Now let's even bring in there all the variables that come into play from what you saw with your your parents and what you didn't see and what you know and what you don't know and what you don't know that you don't know. And I had a lady on last week, an amazing therapist, Diana. She's talking about postpartum depression and she was talking about postpartum rage and how so many people are not familiar that those feelings can exist and then especially not
wanting to share those. So I mean, do you when you get into your course, what are some of the things that people do talk about? What are is it? Is it anything and everything? Yeah, well, I mean, we have, like I said, we have the nine units, the nine principles that really create the framework for our discussion. So it's not like I'm just shooting off the hip every week of what we're going to talk
about. And then within those nine principles, we have the nine principles that we're going principles. There's, we really dive deep. So, to sort of explain how it's set up, it's three trimesters, and honestly, I didn't intend for it to be like a pregnancy metaphor. When I very first created it, it was just nine principles I came up with. We made it a nine-month program, and then women started saying, oh, nine months, like this is a meaningful number to mothers.
And it is broken into trimesters, which is kind of crazy. But in the first trimester, the pillar that we're focusing on is know yourself. Okay. Talk about that. Yeah. You have the pillars. Three months. Yeah. The first three months are all the foundational work of getting to know yourself. So it's not like we're just jumping straight to parenting strategies, which I think so many of some of the like online courses you might see for parenting,
they're kind of like hacks and strategies for scripts you can use with your kid. And that's, that's fine and useful at times. But I feel like what makes this program special is that we're starting with the foundation of knowing yourself, that we're not even going to talk about really parenting strategies until the third trimester, the last trimester, because first you have to know yourself, then you have to honor your needs, and that's the second trimester.
And then the third trimester is love your people. So after you know yourself and honor your needs, that's when you can bring the best of yourself. You can be centered and stable as you go into a unit learning about how to love your people. And obviously, you're not going to wait and be like, for the next six months, I'm not going to love my little.
You're going to continue doing the best you can, but you're going to be learning about yourself all along the way. And little by little, it builds up and you're going to notice that you have a lot more self confidence, trust in yourself,
that you feel more grounded, you feel more boundaried around your kids, you're not as overstimulated all the time. And you're ready to really for those parenting strategies to actually stick by the time we get to that last trimester because you've spent so much time building the foundation of really learning how to know and love yourself first.
So Rachel, first of all, a quick round of jokes. So first trimester, are people more nauseous during that time or do they no longer like Oreo shakes after they throw up or... Yes, we can do it. I made I may even delete those out myself. No, I love it, actually, because I've never thought of that. But yeah, maybe that first trimester is the hardest part for some women. Because it's not that sometimes it's not that fun to
get to know yourself. Sometimes you like, look, you don't want to look at yourself and look at what's really underneath all of that. And some the first trimester, the three units are first voice your values. Okay, which I know you'll be a huge I love it. Yes. Yes. You do so much work with values in acceptance and commitment there.
Yeah. So we spend the whole month helping women figure out what their top five values are, and how can you really build a parenting life around your values, not the shoulds that everybody else is saying, but your values. Then the next unit is celebrate your strengths. Okay. So we're really focusing in on helping women identify their unique strengths to stop focusing so much on their weaknesses and all the things that they think they can't do or somebody
else does better to really own those strengths. And then the next unit is study your story. And that's where we ask women to kind of look back a little at their childhood, at their past, their context. And maybe there's a reason why you are the way you are. Like looking at your story and saying, okay, that's my story and I'm going to acknowledge it and I'm going to heal from it. But what do I want my story going forward to be? Like, what story do I choose for now?
And I think that that study your story unit is often hard. Like, that's probably the nauseous unit. People are like, I don't really want to look at that. And obviously, you have to pace yourself and go as much as you're comfortable with. But sometimes it's hard to look at your past and acknowledge some of the reasons why you are the way you are. But I have found it's almost like clearing out an infection.
Like if you have stuff that you've kind of tried to put aside that's hard in your past, but it's like a festering thing, once you've acknowledged it and kind of gotten it out, then it can actually heal and then you can move forward. Rachel, there's so much good there. And I'm not even I set the jokes aside, but that was gold that you would be sick while you're starting to to self-evaluate, because I think that that is a tough place to be.
But to get to that place of acceptance of, oh, all those things happened, so give myself grace. And now I can just be based off of that data. But I love that when you said earlier that some other parenting... Classes are more of these hacks. I do feel like that's the thing where if you're handing somebody just a checklist of items to do, they're really not invested. And so then if that does, if it works, they still beat themselves up and saying, okay, well,
I had to pay somebody to get the hack or the checklist. And if it doesn't work, we get to say, what's wrong with me? I can't make this work. So I really like that that changed from within. But if you don't know who you are, what you stand for, what that purpose is,
I really feel like, yeah, where you came from, and I feel like people are just still asking everybody else, well, who do you think I am? And that's a, that's a, what do you think I should do? Yeah, and that's handing that person power. And I, you know, I keep referring back to this, the waking up the narcissism podcast. And I mean, that's, that's a way to grow if you're together in a healthy relationship where people go from enmeshment to then differentiated, but then in an emotionally immature or, you know, heaven
forbid, abusive or manipulative relationship, handing that other person the, what do you think? It's, it can be really dangerous. And so I feel like this course would be really helpful for people just to be able to figure out who they are and stop listening to those other voices around them that are saying, well, I think you need to be this. Because if that's used in a, in a way, a manipulative way, then that, that is really where somebody starts to lose their sense of self.
Absolutely. Yeah. And okay. So now after you've, you aren't as nauseous. So now we move into the second trimester. Second trimester. So you, so first trimester, know yourself, second trimester honor your needs. And the three principles that we discuss, the three monthly topics are first bolster your boundaries. Second, sanctify your soul care and third, pursue your purpose.
And so we dive into each of those talking about how your needs matter, and boundaries help you to protect and honor your needs, and soul care or self-care helps you to care, for yourself to the same level that you would care for someone else you love, like your child. And then last, with purpose, I truly believe that living your purpose is a need. It's not like an extra something to fit in if you have time.
I think that your purpose can look different in every season, depending on the ages of your children and the capacity that you have. But if you have fully put aside your own sense of purpose, you're going to start withering inside. And I can say that from personal experience, because that is how I felt at the beginning of my motherhood.
And it wasn't until I really stepped back into my purpose, which I believe my purpose is teaching, that I felt so much new life and excitement that I was then able to bring to my family. It didn't harm my family by me living my purpose. It only blessed them. So those are the three units within that trimester. Bolster your boundaries, sanctify your soul care, and pursue your purpose.
Okay, well, and those, we could break each one of those apart too, and I wanna throw my therapeutic lens over them, which sounds so, like I think I've got it all figured out, and I'm really not saying that, But it's so important because the boundaries alone, even in a healthy relationship, we fall into these patterns over the years.
And so then when people start to set boundaries and say, okay, this is something I need, and if they can even get past the feeling of guilt for expressing a need, that then it isn't like everybody around them says, yay, mom's setting a boundary. If mom plays a certain role in the family dynamic and then she sets the boundary, I always say that's where then people start to push bigger buttons because they need mom to go back into the role that they need her in to satisfy their own needs.
And that's it, right? But then that's part of that, what can destroy mom's sense of self or sense of purpose. So do you find that boundary setting is a difficult task for people in the group. Yeah, definitely. I think that I've realized that it does largely depend on personality. I mean, boundaries were, before I started going to therapy, boundaries were incredibly difficult for me. So I think that I always assume that they're difficult for all women,
and I don't think that's necessarily true. I am an Enneagram too. I know that you have recently started looking into the Enneagram. I'm a people pleaser. I want to be like the helper in every situation. And so boundaries are hard for me and I think hard for a lot of women, but not all women. And so that's been interesting for me to see some women really. Really need this unit and really like it's feel so freeing to them to be given permission to have
some boundaries. Whereas other women kind of, kind of sail through it because they're pretty good at this in their, in their day to day life. Well, I think it's interesting that, first of all, when I, yeah, I had this amazing digital author, Mackenzie on my podcast, we talked about the Enneagram and then I jumped over in this podcast I'm hosting with one of my daughters, The Mind, The Mirror, Me, we were talking about Enneagrams and I said,
Hey, Mackie, what are you? And she said, Enneagram 2, the Peacekeeper. And she said, also known as the Pushover. And I just, you know, I just laugh. Is that what that is known as? Oh, and that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Giver, I think. The Giver. Okay. I like that one better. I like that one better. And I do feel like as I have, I mean, I've done so much therapy, Tony, as you know, I, I feel like I have become a much healthier version of an Enneagram too.
I don't feel like I'm a pushover anymore. I'll always be a giver. Like that's who I am at my, in my heart, but I have learned to have boundaries and to honor my needs and that actually boundaries are compassionate. They're compassionate to other people, to have good boundaries. Because one of my favorite things I've ever learned about boundaries is that they're not just protective, they're also containing.
And so you're protecting yourself from someone taking advantage of you, but you're also containing. The worst of you from lashing out at other people. Because when you have no boundaries, then you get resentful and you simmer and then you explode. And so you didn't protect other people from you because you didn't have boundaries. And how many of us have said yes to something and then resented it the whole time, and it's actually not kind because it's kind of lying.
It's two-faced. It's acting like, oh, yeah, it's fine. I'll totally take that on. And behind that person's back, you're like, I can't believe they did this to me, blah, blah, blah. It is not compassionate to have a two-faced life going on. But it's easy for someone with my temperament to think that the kind thing is to always say yes, when really the kind thing is to be honest. And you're making such, I mean, that's worth it alone right there.
Because I like what you said about, and I go back to this private women's Facebook group where I talk about people that end up in the narcissistic or emotionally immature relationship are often what we call the pathologically kind. That is a wonderful trait to have. And part of that awakening is that how dare somebody take that thing that you is part of your core and then turn it into a negative because a lot of times the people, the women will say.
Okay, I guess I can't do that anymore because look where it got me. And it's like, oh no, we need to figure out the healthy way for you to still be that compassionate person, the giver. I love that you're saying that. So, because I think a lot of people feel like, well, there isn't a way just because they've been in this relationship where that has been, they almost feel like taken from them or destroyed.
But if that's who you are at your core, then I can only imagine what that would feel like, working with these women and then watching them rediscover that healthy version of the giver or that peacekeeper. Yeah. And I will say, Tony, that I, the first time I ever taught this unit on boundaries, I had the whole thing outlined and then had a really special, intimate experience supporting a woman in my community, that in my real life community, that was in a really emotionally abusive relationship.
And it was the first time that I'd ever been that up close and personal with it. I thought that I understood emotional abuse until I was, it was actually like talking to this person and hearing about the situation and everything. I actually went back to my unit on boundaries and added, and added a couple of slides about. The ideal with having healthy boundaries. So I started out my boundaries unit by giving
illustrations of different types of structure or homes. And I say a lot of people think when they hear of the topic boundaries, they think of this. And I show like a fortress with cement walls and, and you know, what are the fence, the barbed wire. Yeah. And so of course they don't want to have boundaries because they don't want to be like an unapproachable fortress to people. But that's rigid boundaries. That's harsh boundaries. That's a little too far for most
relationships. You don't need to be a fortress. And then I show a picture of a house that's like broken down because it's had no boundaries. And so it's like exhausted and the roof is caving in and everybody's junk is all over the lawn. And I said, this is kind of a picture of what it might look like to have no boundaries or loose boundaries, porous boundaries that that, you know, you've gotten completely broken down because you haven't had any protection around you or any barriers around you.
And then I show a picture of a beautiful white painted house with a picket fence and flowers and say, this is what it looks like to have healthy boundaries. Like, in this metaphor, people look at this house and they know that is somebody who respects themselves, takes care of themselves. I'm going to be respectful when I enter that property because there's this beautiful boundary. But it's not uninviting. It's actually very inviting.
That people in our life who we know have good boundaries are often the people that we feel the safest around because we know that they'll be honest with us. And they'll tell us no if they can't. And I try to give this visual to the women of like, you don't want to be on either extreme. You want to be this house with a picket fence that people know they can approach.
And then I also added, unless the person approaching you is emotionally abusive or has narcissistic personality disorder, and I gave them the link to thehotline.org, which is a site that's all about emotional abuse, and it kind of breaks down. If you're not sure, if you're in an emotionally abusive relationship, you can kind of read over these. I said, if that is true, then you actually have to have fortress boundaries.
You have to, in some cases, if possible, remove that person from your life if they are emotionally abusing you and put up the fortress boundaries. And it's so funny, I'm kind of going off on a rant here, but I'm passionate about this. So I was, after having this experience with this woman, I was sitting in a trampoline park. And the song came on over the radio that probably a lot of us have heard before. Now You're Just Somebody That I Used to Know.
It's that song that's like, you didn't have to cut me off. And it's this guy singing about how this girl just cut him out of her life. And now I'm just somebody that you used to know. And how could you have done that to me? And I was with my sister and I said, you know, but maybe she needed to do that because he was emotionally abusive. And my sister was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, in the song, like maybe she had to cut him out and make it like it never happened.
And now he's just somebody that she used to know because the minute she lets him in at all, you know, he comes back and is abusing her. And my sister's like, wow, you are taking this way too seriously. But I just feel like I, after having that up close and personal experience realized that advice on boundaries, typical advice on boundaries works in healthy
relationships. Yes. Absolutely. If you're not in a healthy relationship, your boundaries need to look different than what like a typical person might say is good to have for boundaries. So many thoughts. One of them is that song. I was actually that woman's therapist. So I told her to never talk to him again. Oh yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's so good. Were you really? And then I was like, oh, this is Tony. He's making a joke.
But it's such a good joke though, because I know that song well, and I can't lie. I've honestly thought before, well, I bet he was kind of a jerk. I mean, it's so funny that you've said that, because I know that one so well. But then I really, I'm grateful that you're bringing this up, because I do think that there could be people that might listen to something like this course or hear what we're saying.
And if they are in one of those, an unhealthy relationship, they're dying to take something like this. But I know, because I work with this population where women are saying, but it's my situation is different. I mean, I can't even have my own thought how more or less I'm going to do this. But that's where I feel like these kind of things are absolutely necessary, even just to have a semblance of what normal even could look like.
And what I do in my work a lot of times is I might start with a couple and introduce them to my four pillars of a connected conversation. And then instead of it becoming this amazing tool that they didn't know what they didn't know, one person now sees that the more emotionally immature partner can't use the tool, but they,
still are going to use it as a weapon. And so then, and I love how anything like your course or setting a boundary or understanding what that would look like to somebody in that kind of a relationship starts to help them understand that they do deserve to be able to have healthy conversations or to be able to grow and explore with partner or to be
able to have curiosity about their opinions and not have to defend everything. And so I love that you're, you're implementing those kinds of things into a course like this, because I often say that, you know, my four pillars work with a little asterisk of in case there's extreme emotional immaturity, or setting a boundary ends up being a really not easy, but an empowering thing with a little asterisk of, but it can be difficult in emotionally immature relationships. So yeah.
Yeah. What else did you, what else? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, a quote that I, that I use in that unit is by Dr. Cloud, who wrote the book boundaries. And he says, a good relationship test is how a person responds to the word no. Love respects no, control does not. And so I tell women that in the group, this will actually, putting boundaries will strengthen your relationships.
It'll sift out your relationships because you'll see the people that can handle your no and you'll see that they still love you and you will love them more than ever for respecting your boundary. It will draw you closer. But the people who can't handle your no, who won't take no for an answer and just keep trying to control you and trying to get you to change your no and change your mind, that's a really good clue that that person doesn't actually love you, they just want to control you.
And it may be a time to step back from that relationship a little bit. So it helps you to sift those things out as you start to set those boundaries. Yeah. No, it's perfect. I like to say you can have love or control in an adult relationship, not both. And sometimes it can just be that, that simple.
And I love and talk about simple is when somebody gets in a healthy relationship, if they've been in an unhealthy one, there's almost, there's a concept where let's say that they, they were in a relationship and the person is the more narcissistic or more emotionally immature, and then they are the lesser emotionally immature, but now all of a sudden, they get out of that relationship and in a healthy relationship, and now somebody says, hey, I'm gonna go hang out with my friends,
and now the person that came out of the really emotionally immature relationship says, okay, what do you mean, what's your angle? And so it can really leave you still feeling like the crazy one when you get in a healthy relationship, and that's where I've found people that will say things like, and then he said no, or I said I don't want to, And he said, okay. And I think, okay, when's the, yeah, what's right. Yeah. And that that's this, I really appreciate what you're saying.
Cause that is not part of a healthy relationship. Hey, what I wanted to ask any other insights, I mean, even in that experience you had with this person that you were, you know, seeing what that emotional manipulation was firsthand. I mean, so many insights that I don't even know where to begin. I just feel like, like I said, I thought that I understood emotional abuse. And I think that that's true of a lot of experiences in life where...
Nobody really understands until they understand. And that can either be from they themselves going through it, or it can also be somebody that they are very close to going through it. I've gone through infertility and adoption and IVF. And my sisters have said that, like, we thought that we knew what infertility was like until we walked with you through infertility. And so it doesn't necessarily mean you personally have to go through every hard thing in order to get it.
But I think that when someone you love goes through it, you get it to a whole new level. One thing that really struck me about this woman that I tried to help was that she had a really long pattern of not, of since childhood, of not being treated well. And I never realized just how much that impacts your life forever.
And that makes me really even more passionate about the work that I do because supporting parents so that they can love their children well is setting the foundation for the rest of their children's lives, for how their children relate to other people in all of their relationships forever.
Like if you can learn how to love your children in an emotionally mature way, you are giving them such a gift because they will never put up with emotional abuse or things like that if they have experienced what it feels like to be truly loved in unconditional ways by their parents. I mean, I guess I can never say never, but they're much less likely to ever step into a relationship like that. And so the work that we're doing as parents is incredibly important, as well as especially Lee.
The work that people are doing who did not have that kind of parenting modeled for them and that they're breaking that cycle. Parenting really matters and that's why I'm grateful to do the work that I do. And I honestly, Rachel, I can even edit this out if that would be easier, but I know we we traded texts around when you were helping that person and I even created a couple of episodes that were trying to go a little bit deeper into some of the things you were concerned about.
Yeah, is that okay to talk about or the reason? Okay, because the reason I'm saying that is what I was so and I so when you just said that you implemented some of those things, even in this course with the boundaries, that was what I really appreciated. You had such curiosity about how to help this person. And it wasn't because I talked to people every day that are in those relationships are trying to help somebody in a relationship like that. And it's still so easy for us to say, well, how do I how do I get them to think or how do I get them to understand?
And so just knowing who you are as a person, and we could pull up the text, I mean, there was none of that. It was, this is so difficult. You know, do you have any ways to, any thoughts about or ways to better communicate or, and I really appreciated that because I think that I would imagine that then is through the vibe through your entire course. Was that it was put together, not just with a, here's what you do, but with that curiosity of just motherhood in general as you develop the course.
Because honestly, and this is where I get all nerdy talk about what I appreciate about healthy relationships, whether you and this person or you and me, or hopefully in a marital relationship, that concept of differentiation is you can offer something to me and I can offer something to you, and we're not trying to tell the other person they're wrong, or I didn't feel like I have to defend myself or tell you that you're
wrong, and you are offering me some really unique insight into this person that you're close with. And then I was able to take that in, and then I wanted to create more content based on the things I knew that I knew, and now this new information to try to just continually put things out there to help. So I love hearing that that was part of what you're implementing things into your course from that too.
Yeah, yeah. And it's been really beautiful for me to walk with this friend and to realize that everybody has their own path and that my job is not to, I mean, I told you I'm the Enneagram too, And so my instinct is to save, to jump in and fix it. And instead to be able to walk with someone and say, this is your journey and I am here to support you, whatever you decide for your life. I can't. Make this decision for you. I can't force you or pressure you into something that you're not ready
to do or that you don't feel good about. All I can do is offer sound advice, a listening ear, lots of encouragement, lots of love, and then allow you to decide what you think is best for your life. And it's made me a better friend and mother, I think. I think that will play out throughout my parenting journey of, like, I can think I know what's best for my kids' lives, but ultimately, if I'm shoving that down their throats, they're not going to want to be in
relationship with me. And I have to walk beside them and honor their path and say, and I mean it, whatever you choose, I'm still right here. And you don't have to ever be embarrassed to call me and say you were right, or I should have, and I don't care. Like this advice comes with no strings attached. Like, it's just because I love you and whatever you decide, I'm here for. That's beautiful, Rachel, because then, and I believe that too, and I feel like my job as a
therapist is being there with the client, and it really is. It is unconditional love, in a sense, and we need a space like that. Now, if something comes up in me and I've established that trust or that relationship with somebody, I, yeah, I can express myself of, man, this is really difficult, but that's still a me issue. What is that bringing up in me? I'm really frustrated because I just, I hate seeing you hurt or it is hard for me because I just want to help. But that's a me
issue, you know? And so, but I'm here for you. And that's a completely different vibe than the controlling one about, look, you need to do something about this because I'm kind of tired of hearing about it. And I think that a lot of people get to that point with their friendships when they're in these emotionally abusive or unhealthy relationships. And that is, boy, boy, it's just the last thing that person needs. It's the last thing they need. Yeah. I don't even remember what trimester.
I think I took you on a tangent with the boundaries, but now I think we're feeling the little guy kick now. So are we heading into the third trimester? Yeah. Yeah. So honor your needs. We spend a lot of time there learning about who we are and how to honor who we are. And then we head into our last trimester, which is love your people. And that's when we really bring the best of what we've learned about ourselves into our parenting.
And the three principles that we dive into in that trimester are gather the good, communicate for connection. And support their struggles. And so you can see a lot of. A lot of what we learned in the first two units really do come into play in how we are interacting with and guiding and supporting our children without trying to control them. And I had to tell you, Tony, that first unit we do on gather the good, we talk a lot about positive based
parenting, like looking for the good. And we, you are the celebrity in that unit because we listen, we listen to, as part of the curriculum, we listened to the episode that you did on my show years ago about the nurtured heart approach and sort of the different tactics for ignoring the bad and praising the good. I think we titled that episode like how to praise your
kids when there's nothing to praise. And so we do a deep dive into that, that how building on what's good about them and what's good in what they're doing is going to propel their behavior forward in a much more positive, better way than harping on the negative. So I have to thank you for that. I mean, you're the main, you're the main act in that unit of gathering the good. Well, it makes me laugh because I mean, it's, it is so incredible.
That whole nurtured heart approach changed my entire life with parenting. I think at the time I learned it, my kids were nine, seven, five, and three, and now they're 19, 21, 23, and 25. And let me just speak to your people. I have a relationship, a healthy, wonderful relationship with all of my adult kids. And it blows my mind, Rachel. I mean, tonight I'm recording a podcast with one of my daughters, Murder on the Couch. And then tomorrow night, I'm recording another episode of My Mirror Me.
And we go to movies with my youngest son and his girlfriend and my daughter, Alex, and her husband, Mitch. We were talking to them yesterday, and we're going to go fly out there for her graduation ceremony. And I cannot even tell you how amazing that is. And I know that that comes from that just building that inner wealth. And kids get their sense of self from external validation. And so when you are giving that external validation positivity.
And it doesn't mean you're just rolling over as a pushover, but you know, you can't be the punisher and the rewarder at the same time. And so, and expect them to come to you with their deep emotions and challenges if they are afraid that you will react. You'll be, I mean, not even, I mean, you can still have emotions, but that you will react impulsively. And it's just, so that's, I'm very honored to hear that, that, uh, that's in there.
Yeah. And there's another, I mean, you did another episode on my show about how to get your teenagers to talk to you and it starts when they're young. And it was a similar concept of you have to learn how not to react, how to just keep a, straight face and listen. Tell me more about that. And it's beautiful for me to hear about the type of relationship you have with your grown kids. And it's not, your grown kids have all taken their own paths and you've supported them.
Like it's, they aren't, they didn't follow some cookie cutter plan of exactly what you thought would be best for their lives and, but they are so close to you. I know you told me once that you do like a Nintendo Switch night with all your kids. You got to, you got to share this because I think it's the cutest thing ever. No, it's, we, we do it so often. We play Mario Kart and it's wherever people are in the country, the world.
And we jump on and we pull up a group FaceTime and we talk trash to each other and we play Mario Kart and we just, and it's like, it's, you know, at some points it's two or three times a week.
And as a matter of fact, you know, tonight I already feel pressure that when I'm recording Murder on the Couch with my daughter, Sid, that we have such a fun time and she's got such a crazy case that we're gonna be talking about tonight that I'm already worried will go long and I might miss a little bit of Mario Kart and yeah I know for the record too I won some cup last Sunday night and I don't ever win and and my kids they dismissed me so quickly that I have in a funny way because I was
like you guys that I have never won and then like oh okay dad making it all about you I thought you were pretty much the narcissist guy right you know they They were, it was the best. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Those family relationships. And I think that that really speaks to those first two units that we do. Yeah. We gather the good and communicate for connection.
The in the communicate for connection unit, we talk about emotion coaching, what that looks like, how to diffuse, you know, when your kid's flipping out or when they're really starting to. Everything's starting to get escalated. Like, what do you do? What are the skills that you can bring into that conversation? And that's really based on a lot of John Gottman's work around emotion coaching that we bring in during that unit. And then in that last unit,
support their struggles. I tell the women in the group that, you know. I, all of these unit titles are alliterative, as you may have noticed, they all have the, you know, I'm a former English teacher, so support, support their struggles. So when I was naming them, I was trying to think of just the right verb to capture what I wanted, but it had to start with an S. And I thought, I purposely did not name this unit Save Them From Their Struggles.
Oh. You know, like there's a name. That's good. Support Their Struggles is very different from Save Them From Their Struggles. And yet, as parents, we often feel like our job is to save them from their struggles. So we talk a lot about how their struggles are part of their process of becoming who they need to be. And we shouldn't be saving them from their struggles, but how do we support them in a way that's loving, that's actionable?
What do you do when your kid has this huge struggle that you don't even know where to begin? We kind of talk through a process of that, really with the emphasis around being, walking beside them and supporting them and not trying to dictate who they become and how they move through the world. Oh, it's brilliant. It is. And can I ask you just a couple of quick things too?
Because from your framework and your three pillars, the part about honoring your needs, knowing yourself, do you find a challenge in people in the moms putting their needs first, that they do feel like they're being selfish, that they felt like they're being prideful, they feel like they're, I mean, do you see a lot of that? For sure. Yes. Yeah. I think coming into it, I have to do some work with them around even being willing to sign up for a program like this.
That's where I was going with this. Yeah. Yeah, because they're like, invest that kind of time that invest that money in myself. And so we have to talk a lot about having how having a sense of self is not selfish. Not at all. I've heard Jennifer Finlayson Fife say that she doesn't really like the word selfless, because it's that is almost like without a self. Yeah, I could see that. you know, she says, if you do things that may be called selfless service to others and being
generous to others that people may call selfless, that should actually be an act of self. It should be you choosing to do those things because you have a self, because you're giving the best of yourself to others, not because you're selfless, meaning without self. And I just love that kind of reframe and I'll sort of present that to them and talk to them about how important it is to be
centered in themselves. Self-centered, but let's flip that around. Centered and grounded in who you are and what you bring to the world so that you can bring, the best of yourself to the world.
I agree. I feel like then it's more of this grounding that you can operate from instead of just being pushed around and and I will throw out this on the way in today. Actually, I was listening to a podcast and I do not know. I cannot wait to look more into this. It was a psychologist that was talking about. He said that up to 75% accuracy and you can determine almost someone's level of depression by how much they are speaking about themselves. But in that that negative way, I'm so bad. I can't believe I said that I never should have said that. What's wrong with me?
And he was talking about how the act of gratitude, or the act of service, but then to make it become an action, that you have to come from a place of, exactly what you're saying, knowing yourself.
And I just thought, man, that just, when you hear those messages, it's the people that need to, I feel like need to hear it the most, are the ones that I don't know if they hear that and think, okay, but that sounds, that's going to take a lot of time, and that's time that I need to take care of other people. But so I think this is a lot of that people not knowing what they don't know about what that would feel like to then operate from this place of a sense of self and confidence
and purpose. And I think that would be amazing. So yeah, what are the dates? I mean, do people need to get on this quick? This is going to go out. People listening are listening on a Tuesday. The I never do specific days. This will be fun, though. What the 12th and then what happens next? Where do people go? What do they do? So enrollment will be open until Thursday, September 21st.
Okay. So depending on when people listen, you can go to selfassuredmotherhood.com, one word, or 3in30podcast.com slash Sam, which stands for Self-Assured Motherhood. That's sort of my shorthand, Sam. I like it. And if they need a little more of a taste before jumping into the full program, because I understand it's a commitment, I am teaching a few free classes this month to kind of give people a taste of the content. And those can be found at 3in30podcast.com slash free class.
So I would love to see anybody either in the free class or joining up for the program. It is an investment of time and money. And it is so incredibly worth it. And I can say that with confidence now that I have taught over 200 women. This is my third year doing it. And just seeing the change in these women, like I mentioned, is remarkable. And so if you're feeling pulled and called to this, I would encourage you to go check it out and find out more at SelfAssuredMotherhood.com.
OK, and even if that's the yeah, buts, the yeah, but I might not be able to make every week or yeah, but I might not do the homework or yeah, But those are all just, I love talking about your, yeah, I like what you said. If you felt pulled, that is that dopamine dump of, this is something I need to do. And then just know that all the yeah, buts coming next are absolutely normal because your brain is actually pretty lazy as much as we give it credit.
Yeah. Your brain will do it next year. It's like, that sounds hard. Like, I don't know. And it's like, no, you do want to change, right? If you are not doing well emotionally, if you do not feel, like you're thriving in your motherhood, that you're showing up as the mom you want to be, don't let your brain talk you out of it, because this is worth it.
Okay, I have one very quick thing that this is just unscientific anecdotal research that I'm doing and it's based off of what will feel like a stalkery observation of one of your stories. I think it was yesterday. Are you ready? Okay. Ready. You had posted something about you were just having a good, chill, hangout, relaxed time with your dog. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. So, I'm very curious to know, did you always love your dog or is that something you've come to know?
Is that something, is that a dog that just Ryan said, I will be having a dog and you We're not because I'm finding more and more. I will. Let me get your answer first. And I'll tell you the results of my unscientific poll from people that I work with. Okay. So this kind of goes back to the class because I, as a child loved animals so much, always wanted a dog, could never have a dog because my little sister has severe allergies.
And it was like the heartbreak of my life that I couldn't have a dog. Then I grew up and I got obsessed with productivity and achievement and perfectionism and having a dog sounded really inconvenient and like one more thing that I would have to take care of. And so my husband, it's like, you know this, Tony, my husband was the one who said a friend of mine had puppy, like, I want to do this.
And at first I was really resistant and I don't think it's the right time and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But decided to do it. And I am obsessed with her. And she, like, it's awakened my inner child. Like it's a lot of what I tell women is, like, go back to what you loved as a child. Think about who you really are. And like, that was something that my childhood self was like, heck yes, you want a dog. But my like, kind of adult self was like, I don't know, that sounds inconvenient.
And so sometimes it's like getting back to yourself, you really find such joy in things you weren't expecting.
I love that answer so I don't even I feel like I don't even want to put this out there because what I find over and over again the therapist in me is somebody it's and I've had it both the guy buys the dog or the wife buys the dog but it's a they bought it and we didn't really talk about it and it was impulsive and I can't believe they did it and then whoever it is that bought it says I will take care of it all the time and I think that's their inner child you know no I'll clean up after it all the time and then they don't so it ends up being the other person but then inevitably there is is love there and
You So, I get asked that often. I've done four-pillared entire conversations of marriage therapy sessions where it's about, should we get the dog, should we not get the dog? Yeah, and then, and I know, I call this one a leading indicator. Oh, he's getting that dog, you know? But, you know, he's like, no, fine, I won't. You know, kind of goes into a victim stance or whatever. And then I know, okay, what's my over-under on when they end up getting the dog?
And then, do I wait a year before then? I ask the wife if they, now she really loves the dog. And it's just inevitable. So I'm not trying to advocate one way or the other, but just seeing, I knew that Ryan loved that dog, and then I didn't know where you were at with it. And then here's back to back posts of you sleeping with dog and then going on a bike ride, adorable dog pulling you like a sled.
Yes, like a sled. She is just, I just love her. So yes, and that, like I feel like she has reminded me that not everything in life has to be about productivity, but sometimes you can just lay on your bed with your snuggly dog. And that's good for your soul, and that's good for me to remember, as somebody that's very productivity-focused a lot of the time. I love it. OK, Rachel, I feel like I really do. I'm so thankful for the time, and it's always
fun to talk to you. But the depth underneath this course, I didn't even, I mean, of course it's going to be. It's nine months. It's you putting it together. But the journey that the women will go on is, it warms my heart. The therapist heart of me, the person that works with people, because people need a way to find themselves and know that it's OK to raise, what I call, raising their emotional baseline and put themselves in the best position that they can be the best them.
And it isn't selfish at all. But I know how difficult that is. I hope that you get a lot of people coming from Virtual Couch, and we'll run it on Waking Up to Narcissism as well. Yeah. Well, thank you, Tony. And you've been integral to my journey. I think I interviewed you within my first 30 episodes. I can't remember. Yeah, I think so. But I mean, I'm over 300 now. I mean, women.
And that's, that was the first we had ever met was when you reached out to me about my show and like you've become a dear friend and have really impacted my life and my relationships and have even shown up in my course. So I'm just so grateful for you and for the time that you allowed me to have today to talk about my program. I can't wait. So we'll, we'll, we'll make sure that this gets out right away. I'll put all the links in the show notes as well. But thanks for coming on. Music.