Breaking Social Barriers: Enhancing Confidence with Autism Support - w/Karla Gragg and Sarah Bailey

Music. Hey, everybody, welcome to The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and someone that is soon to go under the knife. Surgery for the first time ever. And I have been writing a lot and documenting that whole experience. And when you're going through something big, I think for the very first time, I cannot get enough content.

I'm watching all the YouTube videos about the particular surgery that I'm going to be getting. And so I want to document my entire journey. So I'm going to be sharing more of that. If any of you have had neck surgery, fusion, it sounds so dramatic, spinal fusion. Anyway, reach out to me and I would love to hear your experiences. I believe that the C5, 6 and 7 discs will be involved. It's a very common procedure and the outcome seems to be pretty encouraging, but it's the unknown.

And I talk so often about fear of the unknown and I want certainty. And there are neither of those. There is definitely fear of the unknown. There is no certainty. But I'm really excited about this the more I look into it. And boy, everything really is an opportunity to self-confront and grow. But I digress. Thanks for joining me today. Follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch or TikTok at virtualcouch.

And we've got a pretty steady pattern of Sunday evening live question and answers with my daughter, Sydney or Mackie. And then the replays of those are on my YouTube channel. And I highly encourage you to go find those and subscribe. on the YouTube channel as well, if you don't mind. And go to TonyOverbay.com and there you can sign up for the newsletter.

And if you have questions or comments about any episode here on the virtual couch on waking up to narcissism, you name it, then submit them through the contact form. And I would love to, I would love to address those. So let me set the stage for today's episode. 20 years ago, when I first started as a therapist, autism wasn't something that at least I did not see that people were talking about as much.

Occasionally I would hear about Asperger's syndrome or autism, but they felt like distant concepts, things that affected other people somewhere else. But over the years, something shifted and maybe it was my own awareness expanding

or maybe it was society's understanding evolving. But suddenly I found myself meeting more and more people who would openly share that they were high functioning autistic or on the autistic spectrum. I remember clearly one of my early experiences that opened my eyes to autism in a very new way. I was working with a teenage client who attended a school for students on the autism spectrum.

And one year they put on a production of Peter Pan and I became an impromptu prop, my bald head serving as land when one of the students pointed their telescope at me from their makeshift ship. Now, what struck me wasn't the intended humor. I was grateful to be a participant, but it was the genuine confusion on some of the students' faces as they looked over and looked at me.

There was a teacher standing beside me and the teacher whispered to me, A lot of the students are very literal, so they're probably thinking, that's not land. That's a guy. That's his bald head. And that moment was pretty transformative for me because it wasn't about right or wrong ways of thinking. It was about understanding different ways of experiencing the world. So fast forward to today, and the landscape, I think, has changed dramatically.

You've got shows like Love on the Spectrum, which if you haven't watched that, I highly recommend it. And they've helped normalize autism and our cultural conversations. You've got public figures who are openly discussing their autism spectrum diagnoses. And crucially, the medical understanding has evolved too. Take ADHD, for example. You'll hear me say on this interview, and I've said it before, that there is talk of ADHD potentially finding its way onto the autism spectrum.

And I have not seen that that is actually the case. Currently, it's not on the autism spectrum, but we know that these conditions now can coexist. And that was something that wasn't even recognized in the diagnostic manuals just a decade or two ago. But I think the most striking change is in the numbers. And as you'll hear in today's interview, autism diagnosis have increased from 1 in 10,000 children to 1 in 32 within a single generation.

And this isn't just statistics. That represents real people and real families and real needs for support and particularly for understanding. So that is why I am excited about today's guest, Sarah Bailey, who is a longtime friend whose work I've admired for years. And she joins me with her sister, Carla Craig. And together, they are doing some groundbreaking work through their organization, Breaking Social Barriers.

They're offering evidence-based programs that are specifically designed for young adults on the autism spectrum. And what's key about this is they're using UCLA's acclaimed peers treatment program, and that's the only research-based method for helping young adults with autism form and maintain friendships. They're addressing one of the most crucial, but I think often overlooked aspects of autism, social connection.

So whether you are somebody who identifies with autistic traits, or you're formally diagnosed, or you simply want to better understand a condition that's becoming increasingly prevalent in our society. This conversation, I think, will offer a lot of insight into autism, social skills, and the power of evidence-based support. So with that said, let's get to the interview with Sarah and Carla. Sarah and Carla, welcome to the virtual couch. How are you guys doing?

Great. Thanks for having us on, Tony. Yeah. So, Sarah, you sent the very nicest text to me in the world because I follow you. We go way back.

Right. know our families know each other and then i think you had posted on facebook about what you guys are doing together and then it's funny because i i just thought man i wonder if sarah would be open to talking about it and then you texted and did you refer to me as uh oprah winfrey i thought this was very fun i did that i felt like i had been contacted by oprah winfrey so that's that's funny the thing is that i know tony from way back before tony was famous so okay all right i'm

gonna edit that part out or I'll isolate it. I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. Okay, well, still, we're Tony fans at the Bailey House. And as I'm with your kids, every one of your kids has performed, and I would go to all the plays, and I just think that's amazing. As a matter of fact, I just want a special shout out to your son, Liam, who is one of the greatest, because I love Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat, and he played the Pharaoh, the Elvis character.

Yes. So I think he gets annoyed that when I do see him, I want him to talk like that, and that was a long time ago. So forgive me, Liam. Okay. Fair enough. Sarah, what I was really drawn toward is you were talking about work that you do with Carla in the world of autism. And that's one of those areas that I know that I don't know what I don't know. And so I'm coming into this a little bit blind. I hear about autism often.

I work with clients who have high functioning autism and I work with parents who have autistic kids. And I know that presents a certain challenge when it comes to even how the in the relationship with the parents and their marital relationship and their relationship with their kids, with other kids. And so that's the angle I'm coming from. But I don't know enough about autism. And so maybe, Sarah, if you want to tell me what you guys are up to, maybe introduce Carla.

And then you guys tell me what I don't know that I don't know about what you're doing and about autism. And then I might jump in with some questions in a little bit.

Sure, sure. So Carla and I are sisters. oh i didn't know this yeah that's very cool now i get okay now i just have to look and try to tell okay all right older younger who's the older sister who's the younger sister carla's seven years younger than me oh wow okay yeah oh god i want some scoop maybe like after off mic i would have stories about sarah okay oh fascinating yeah so well i'll let carla tell how she got to working with children with autism because her story

is pretty fascinating okay and then. And I, my road is kind of winding how I started working with children with autism, my degrees in child life therapy. And then I decided to homeschool my children. And through homeschooling them, I ended up founding a learning center. And the children that came to the learning center, many of them were autistic or had social anxieties and the whole spectrum, really. And so through working with these children, they had a safety net of friends when I had them.

They could come to our dances and our social activities. So they had a group of friends. But when they left us, when they aged out, their parents often reported that they were super lonely. No one was texting or calling them anymore. And they didn't know how to go about getting friends. Then I watched Love on the Spectrum. Have you ever watched that show, Tony? I have. I love that show. And that's one of those funny ones that I love when something gets brought into therapy often.

And that's one that sometimes I think of the, it's going to sound, I don't know if capitalistic is the right word, but the amount of money that I've made on talking about things like Dungeons and Dragons. I know more about that than I ever thought I would, but I have enjoyed learning when people bring in the love on the spectrum talk. So that's interesting. Yeah, I do. I've enjoyed that. Yeah.

So when I saw that show, I thought, I have a skill set from working for 14 years with children on the spectrum. And I wanted somehow to work with young adults. And it's taken me a while to figure that out. And Carla and I joined forces to work on that. So that's how I started on this journey. Okay. So then enter Carla into the scene. And Sarah, I know living in the area that you developed that, it was love of learning, right? I heard of that so many times.

And that's where then I would name drop you as well. I know Sarah Bailey, because that helped a lot of people. You have a great reputation for the work that you do. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. All right. So then Carla, what's your background? Hi, I'm Carla, and I would brag about Sarah as well.

And I got into special education, got my master's in education, and then spearheaded a program in a small town to work with young adults on the spectrum and other intellectual disabilities to get them into the community, community access. And my main goal was to get them a job.

That would give them the self-esteem they need the connection they need and i completely failed i could not make progress and so i did a sidestep knowing that social skills would help get in the community get them jobs get them connections and i went about to create my own curriculum to do this and as i was doing that and researching that's where i came across dr largeson's work who makes an appearance on live on the spectrum by the way okay okay and she um runs the peers program at ucla.

And created the only evidence-based curriculum to teach young adults on the autism spectrum social skills. And by young adult, you guys have both mentioned that. What's the age range of a young adult? We're targeting 18 to 35 is what we feel like we can help. Okay. So a lot of people that I work with struggle with diagnosing their kids with anything really.

And actually last night on one of the lives I did, we talked a lot about diagnosis and my daughter and I were talking about there are certain things that can feel like a unfair diagnosis or the diagnosis brings with a certain amount of judgment. But then we were talking about with other things, the diagnosis brings help and it brings resources. So I don't know, do either of you have thoughts on that or how old would one

start to look for a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder? And then how do you go about that? Well, I was listening to live last night, Tony, with autism. Not that that's what you do, but I have a daughter that I think might be on the spectrum and she would not want to have that label and she might want it later and it might benefit her later. It might benefit her now, but she's not ready. 14 and wants to fit in to school and be normal.

Yeah normal right and but again referencing love on the spectrum we have a character that said once she got her diagnosis she felt finally a human being yeah i appreciate you meeting your daughter where she's at the therapist in me always thinks that's the right way to do it but then i can still have my own opinions my daughter sydney has recently been diagnosed with adhd is medicated and says it's changed

her life but then let's say when i was trying to bring awareness to it when i got my diagnosis 10 years ago in my mid-40s, that was the last thing that she wanted was to hear that there was, you need to do this thing. And so, I know that that can be a fine line. And a fine line is that it can be difficult for a parent to navigate, I would imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, then, I don't know, do you have any advice to someone that then is listening now?

And then we'll jump back into 18 to 35, but who may feel like their child shows, and what's even the right way to say this autistic traits or tendencies i think it's hard for parents to recognize them because they just view that as their child oh yeah okay right that's just what johnny does right so the hand flapping or yeah um the spinning or whatever else that's just johnny so sometimes parents just don't recognize

it and it takes an outside source to show that that behavior may be on the spectrum and i like that you say it may be so something to make note of. Okay. All right. So, back to your journey, Carla. So, you find this peers, so an evidence-based model to work with young adults? Yes. Okay. She has since done programs for younger, but she started with young adults because there's a gap there. After you age out of the school system at 18 or 22, it's a cliff,

as Sarah experienced at her private school. And so I failed at getting them jobs and sidestepped to social skills and found Dr. Largeson's work at UCLA and was able to go train with her and her staff to learn her work, to learn her curriculum. And now I'm certified to teach it. Okay. And what is that? If you had to give an overview of what is different about Dr. Largeson's work, what would that be?

Sure. Yes. Sarah was going to go over that more specifically, but the way it looks is you're in a small group. It's group therapy and it's behavioral intervention. And you have these concrete rules and steps that socially successful people do. So that's the big difference. A lot of times people are told, just go say hi, go introduce yourself. And that is not what socially successful people are doing.

Okay. I like that you're pointing out the difference. And can I ask, it might be a pretty naive question about this in general, maybe autism in general, is I hear sometimes parents that I'm working with talk about teaching their kids how to, and I don't want to say any of the terms wrong, but is it mask or is that, you know, I don't know if masking is a bad thing, but there's a part of me that wonders, because I'm a big acceptance and commitment therapy person where,

you know, that is the person, this is who they are. So is there any controversy in the area of autism about the person just being themselves, whatever that sounds like? And then here is the skill to learn. There is. There's a lot of controversy. And the Autism Society has only given a thumbs up to this curriculum because it honors the individual, that we're not trying to change the individual. You're trying to give skills that will enhance their lives. And these skills are a choice.

Okay. I love that difference there. So now I understand, Carla, when you're saying it's much different than just go do this, because that's like, okay, you just tell me exactly what to do. I will parrot that. And then, and I wonder if that falls into the kid at that point, or even the young adult wanting the validation of the person that's teaching them that versus them learning that this is, I like what you're saying, what socially successful people do.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Yet, Tony, it does give concrete steps that are thorough and tell you exactly what to do. And I have found as a person that's usually socially successful, none of us are perfect at it. But I am doing these steps. I didn't realize I was doing them until I knew about them. But it is exactly how I approach people or enter conversations, how I maintain conversations, is what Dr. Largeson and our team discovered. That successfully social people are doing. And I appreciate this too.

I will often say, and I sometimes hesitate, but then I don't feel like I need to, but I will say, okay, I will play at times when I'm doing marriage therapy or how to help an individual, I'll play the role of normal police. But I naturally air quote normal because again, I go back to what is normal and who am I to tell others that this is exactly how they should think or feel or what they should do.

But then I can also say it is also 20 years of experience in my job and it's all based off of evidence-based data. Of how to show up. But I love what you're saying. I'm here. I'm right beside the person and here are some things to do, but it still honors the individual. I love this idea too. Yeah, Sarah. The evidence also shows that about 50% of social bids will be rejected. So I think that's important for everybody to understand. Even normal social bids, 50% of them will be rejected.

So if we can go into that situation knowing that sometimes we're rejected, sometimes we're accepted. It doesn't have anything to do with us, right? That people are people and sometimes they're in the mood to talk and sometimes they're not. So we don't need to get discouraged, I guess is what I'm saying, if our social bid is rejected. And is that typically, is that harder for someone on the spectrum to deal with that rejection or those bids?

I think it's hard on all of us. I would agree. Yes. Yeah. Okay. And this is a fascinating, maybe side note as well, but I had an autism or a neurodivergent autism expert. Her name's Jodi Carlton on the podcast a while back. And we were talking about autism versus narcissism. And there are some things that appear similar, but then we were pointing out the differences. And she just mentioned, I was talking about ADHD and she mentioned that there's some that feel like that is on the spectrum.

And I said, if it is, then sign me up. I mean, I want to learn more about what that looks like. And I know in the world of ADHD, there's rejection sensitivity where there's this anticipatory rejection because the data says that by the time an ADHD kid is 10, 12, that they've been rejected up to 10,000 times more than the quote normal kid. Just even in the not now champ, hey, slow down. We're not going to do that. So you develop this anticipatory rejection.

I have not found that, Tony. I find this resilient. They just keep trying. Okay. Okay. I like that. And what are the reasons behind that, do you think, Carla? And I think I'm leading the witness because I have assumptions in my mind. My thoughts are that, that they're not tuned into the rejection. Okay. Okay. That makes so much sense. Yeah. It's interesting. Before we hit record, I was sharing with you guys that I had a clip about highly sensitive people that has done really well.

And there are people in the comments though, that are saying these people are autistic. Take away the highly sensitive person diagnosis. And there's a couple of differences that I think are really interesting that might speak to this too. And I would love to get your thoughts. I was sharing last night on the live that there's a common misconception that highly sensitive person traits and autism spectrum disorder are the same condition.

And the belief is they share some surface level similarities. And a lot of that is the sensory processing. But then the key stats say that HSP affects about 30% of the population in autism.

The data that I was seeing was two to 3%. And so this Dr. Elaine Aron, who is the one that coined the term highly sensitive person, she talked about that HSP is considered a trait rather than a disorder, and that it's characterized by heightened sensitivity to environmental stimuli and a deeper processing of information. And then she said, ASD is this neurodevelopmental condition that presents and challenges in social interaction and communication and behavior.

So I felt like that really showed the difference. But I would love to get your take on that, highly sensitive person, maybe versus autism. And then what are your thoughts on that data, the two to 3%? Yeah, so I was just reading a study the other day that said one in 32 children now are diagnosed on the spectrum. And it used to be one in 10,000. So, yeah, so within a generation, we've seen this spike in autism diagnosis.

So either we've changed how we diagnose. So are we including ADHD in the diagnosis, that kind of thing? Or we have a huge spike in autism. Awesome. Okay. What do you think? Any ideas, either of you? I would say that we're recognizing it more. We're seeing it more. We're a more sensitive population now to this difference. Okay. I know I probably took us off track a little bit there.

So I'd love to get back to when you're talking about your program, give me some real life scenarios and what this looks like, what your course will offer somebody. Yeah, I think at first it's important to know that we really respect the students that come to us. Neurodiversity means that maybe we think differently, but differences don't

make us more or less than someone else. So we're not trying to change that individual. We're just trying to enhance their ability to show who they really are. That's really important that we're not trying to change the foundation of that person. Okay. Not trying to create just a type of person that this is an autistic person and how they present. It's still, they're uniquely them. Yeah, because they have superpowers and they should show them off, right?

We're just trying to give them the skills that they can use to get out there and show their superpowers. So what we teach ultimately will be a choice for them to use. And we want everyone that comes to us to have chosen to come to us. We don't want necessarily parents forcing them into a class because it's not going to be successful for anyone if they're forced to be there. They have to want the skills that we're offering.

And do you feel like by the time somebody hits that 18 or so, that now they really do want to know how to show up in the world or what comes next? Yeah, I think a lot of them are hungry for the information. And I think the parents are hungry for them to have the information too. Yeah, I think so. I can think of a couple of couples that I've worked with in the past that that literally is the time where the child graduates high school and then it does seem like the world is big.

And I don't want to sound dramatic and say scary, but then it is, what do we do next? They're just throwing them into a regular college and hoping for the best. So do you feel like that's where maybe you guys come in? Right. Learning how to deal with roommates or college situations, all that will be really helpful if they have the skills.

To navigate those social situations without parents around yeah so do you have examples or i think carla were you saying that sarah was going to go into more detail on the specifics for a real life example as i was saying a lot of times we're told just go say hi go introduce yourself but if you went up to money and went hi i'm tony to a complete stranger how would that stranger perceive you oh they're

very like oh man backing off the angle and where's my wallet and what else do I need to do? Yeah. Odd. Even though that's what we're told, it's not what we're actually doing when we're successful out in the world. So we will teach that concrete steps of you, you have a prop, for instance, it could be a book, a lot of times it's your phone. And you use that to not to look distracted. I'm just looking at my phone. And then you look over at the person trying to make a little eye contact smile.

And then you notice something about them that can be a common interest notice something about maybe you have an emblem for your running gear and i'm also a runner i could notice that and use that as a way to enter a conversation with you and then after some steps then you get to hi i'm carla okay i love it okay that makes so much sense and i like what you're saying that would probably be a good idea for me as well so they're just regular skills that would help yeah nothing right so how to enter

a conversation how to maintain a conversation how to exit a conversation what to do if you were rejected partially accepted or fully accepted into a conversation and how to recognize whether you are recognizing if the circle opens if the body language opens to you what what people's eyes are doing can i tell you when i first got into this work, one of the very first clients I had that I still remember to this day, he was in his mid to late 20s. He was married.

He worked at an engineering firm and he was open to his autism diagnosis. I think even at the time he was concerned to have Asperger's, which I don't know if you can speak to what is the difference or why did Asperger's go away? First of all, I'm curious about that.

Well, it went away because of insurance. Really, the Asperger's diagnosis wasn't considered autistic at the time, so there weren't services provided. For people with Asperger's. So, when they put it under the autism umbrella, then they could get the services they needed. Okay. Are there key differences to what formerly known as Asperger's was? Well, the spectrum is so large, right?

They can cover ADHD and what used to be Asperger's to a myriad of other different ways of thinking, of processing, right?

Yeah. Generally, we looked at Asperger's as people that were really, really bright yes but didn't have social skills okay yes so the high functioning autism and so this person was very brilliant and we worked on very specific things like he would if he was in a crowd of engineers and they're all talking and then he realized i don't really care about what they're talking about he would just leave and then he often felt and he was surprised why then one of his write-ups

at work he was told that he doesn't seem like a team player and then the other

one that I thought was so interesting was he asked me very specifically once, he said, do you often share movie quotes with people? And then I said every now and again, but he had a movie quote for every situation. And so if people weren't speaking back in movie quotes, he felt like they weren't interested in him. And so I thought those were, I don't know if those would fit into kind of the things that you see or the things that you're working with.

Yeah. So we're teaching them to trade information. So yeah, that goes hand in hand with what you're just saying that if somebody's not giving you movie quotes back, then you're not trading information in a way that relates to that person. So you've got to think, how can I trade information with them that actually sparks a conversation? So it gets them that outside of maybe just being an interviewer or dominating a conversation to actually learn how to trade information back and forth.

Which was my favorite part of Love on the Spectrum was to watch when a couple would get together and they were really, you could tell they were trying to exchange, I like that phrase, exchange information. Yeah. You could see where it would seem awkward, but I thought it was one of the most adorable things to watch in the world was seem so vulnerable and to see how they were putting themselves out there. Right. Skills that can be taught to anyone, right? Maybe naturally,

but they can be taught. Yeah. And Sarah, if I can bring in some vulnerability, something you learned from this course is that sometimes you can be an interviewer that keep asking. And so this, like you said, it can help any of us. None of us are socially perfect. Yeah, for sure. What are like, I love this concept of the interviewing or what are some other just things that people might not know they don't know or things that they would learn in your course?

So being a conversation hog would be the other side of that okay maybe i am on the spectrum. I feel we all are okay i i would after this interview it was a while ago i came away from that thinking okay it's suddenly the neurodivergent going to be the person we currently call normal and normal are the rest of us there's going to be a tipping point where that whole thing shifts Right. And we're teaching. As we step into our authenticity, we're all going to be these different people.

Yeah. Yeah. OK. I don't expect you guys to talk negatively about other courses. I would imagine that there that is not even anything that you guys would do. But are there other courses out there? I mean, you talk about this being evidence based. And as a therapist, I want to just operate from this place of there's data behind the things that I'm sharing. This isn't just my idea. And I also am on the record for I love life coaches.

And life coaches can do some really amazing things. I often say that when they can tell you what to do, then I'm there to say, tell me why that didn't work or tell me why you didn't do it. But are there programs out there that you feel like are, again, I don't want you to trash it, you don't have to, but that are teaching the wrong information. From my understanding, this is the only evidence-based approach. Okay.

Yeah. I am fascinated over the last couple of years, I've developed more courses that the more I've learned about the way that people organize a course or a sales page and this concept of teaching the destination. Do you want your kid to, do you want them to feel, do you want to be, and it sounds great.

And then I was actually having some help from someone that was trying to help me put courses together. And I was saying, okay, but I want to talk about the evidence-based model of communication that I work from my four pillars based off of emotionally focused therapy or the work that we do with whatever it would look like validation from David Schnarch. And this person, who I understand was saying, that's the vehicle.

We don't care about the vehicle. We want the destination and people are buying the destination. And I really struggled with that because I think you need to have a good vehicle to get to the destination. So the empirical data shows that the students after going through this program have more get-togethers. So that's the end goal. More get-togethers, more social interaction, greater self-esteem. And that's what the data is showing. So I love that. So you guys can,

yes. Oh, yes, Sarah. Oh, I was going to say also to recognize the pain source. So I think in marketing, you look for the pain sources, right? Yes. The pain source for what we were seeing with our students, both Carla and mine, was that once they graduated our programs, they were home alone and not knowing how to get out into the world and have social interactions, to have friends. So we were dealing with a really lonely group. I heard that it's up to 85% of people.

Population is on the couch, their parents' couch. Without a job, even with a college education, without a job, without at least deeper, meaningful friendships. Wow. And then with that isolation, now are we in the back to my world in the therapy lens of people turning down healthy coping mechanisms or further isolating or starting to just go into their own minds? I don't know. Does anxiety go up, depression, those things as well? Yes, that is the consequence of not having healthy friendships.

Okay. Right. And I want to say, do they feel it deeper than they're maybe people on the spectrum that don't get the help? I think they want it just as much as any human. We are relational creatures. Yeah. Yeah. How long is your course? How long is your program? What does that look like? Yeah. So we meet once a week and it's six weeks long. So we have our first course is friendship 101 and that will be six weeks long. And then we go into a dating course. So they build off of each other.

And so that would be a six week long course as well. And then, and they're all on Zoom. So we can meet with people all over the world. It doesn't matter where people live. And then we have a course on workplace, how to deal with colleagues and that. So like your friend that was just walking up when conversations didn't, when he wasn't interested, we teach them how to deal with work, social situations.

Okay. So what I appreciate about this too, is I think somebody in a role like myself as a therapist, this would be a good resource to, they can come in and we can talk about things. Tell me about your mom. They can lay on the couch. But then as far as the, what I don't know that I don't know, it sounds like referring a therapist, referring to your program would almost be the homework. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And we do give homework. They do have homework. Yeah.

Okay, do they do the homework? I'm so curious as a therapist. Most people don't. It's fun homework. You brought that up last night. It's to practice the skills with their people, call grandma, practice trading information with her. And I think it's the homework that they enjoy. And part of when they join is for this to be successful, you need to do the homework, you need to partner with someone at home. And then we do behavioral rehearsals in the class as well.

Okay. How does that go? Does that work well? Yes. But going back to the person at home, we call that a social coach. So it could be a roommate, it could be a friend, it could be a parent. But really having that person, that social coach, increases their accountability and desire maybe, or getting it done, the homework, is more likely to get done if they have someone helping them and checking in with them throughout the week. Do you have information for that person of how they show up?

Yes. Yes. We will send out an email to them each week as well with the assignment so they can see exactly what they've done. That's exciting. What are things that maybe I didn't even know to ask you or things that you wanted to make sure that people knew about, whether it's your course or you guys or the work that you do? Well, I was thinking about your friend and exiting conversations, how a lot of times we don't even think that that's a skill, how to exit a conversation.

And we teach three different ways to exit a conversation, and they need a cover story. And as you brought up. It's masking for the autism community. And I think a lot of us do mask. And what I find so refreshing in the autistic community is that they don't mask. And I love it. I'm so drawn to it. And I'm inspired by it. And so this idea of a cover story to exit a conversation is a new idea for a lot of people where you go, well, got to get going.

And maybe you don't. But you just, that's the proper way to keep those connections with the people that you're leaving. Okay. I love that. Yeah. What else do we need to know? Well, also we do a lot of role-playing in our classes so they can really see real life situations. So we're not just basing it on something ethereal out there that they can't. We want them to see concretely how to use these skills. So role-playing is a huge part of that. And we do appropriate and inappropriate role-playing.

Okay. Oh, that would be, what's a good example of an inappropriate role-play? Like your friend just leaving hey yes just walk it away or maybe you're standing way too far apart and you're yelling and you're in the library so teaching them proper social distancing and volume control that kind of stuff so that they can approach a person without maybe, getting them on guard like why is this person yelling or standing so far away or too close sounds.

So in this episode where I'm preparing the differences between HSP and autism, there's some things that I'm finding. And I want to know, are these just old tropes of autism? Or are they true where it was talking about too intense of eye contact or not being able to read the social cues or maybe not being as big of a fan of sarcasm? Are those things pretty universal? Yeah. Experience the intense eye contact, but not picking up on the social cues for sure.

And sarcasm cracks me up how I once said to a student, a substitute teacher was going to go work in the preschool. And I'm like, they're going to eat them alive. And my student was like, oh my God, I took it literally. And I have enjoyed their literal take on sarcasm. It's funny you say that, Carla. I have one of my favorite clients of all time I've worked with for a very long time. He's an adult in his mid-20s now and very open about his autism.

And he will often say, do you really mean that or is that a joke? And I love those moments. I'm more aware they ask those questions. Chance. And I guess I think I was saying the exact opposite of what it is. Is it a lack of eye contact? Is this one where you're teaching someone? That's more eye experience. Yes. Okay. And now that you're saying, I can think of another client that is amazing, wonderful. And she's very aware of her autism. And she's told me that she works on her eye contact.

And there are times where I will then be aware of that and notice she is, that's where she's really holding my glance. And then I feel like I'm in a staring contest and I go back to my childhood and I will not lose this.

Yeah um yeah so that's one of the skills we do work on is appropriate eye contact okay yeah i love this i think a lot of programs can work on that that's something the school systems would work on but this brings in so many other skills like i've mentioned that how to enter a conversation i don't think the school systems are addressing that or other curriculums that i've seen And going back to the ecologically valid social skills, this is what socially successful people are doing.

This is the distance. This is the words for our anti-bullying class. They literally have found that there's 12 things to say to the person that bullies you that will get them to stop. And you don't just throw in another word without at least this program. They will study it. They'll have their controlled group and make sure that statement does get rid of the bully.

I love it. Now, of course, I want to know what are those? I'm going to take the course. And that's us. It's things like that. Because, again, it's one of those things where we might tell our people, oh, just ignore them. But that is not what the data shows. No, I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah, there's a friend of mine that I had on, and I will admit I'm Googling in the background. He's Dr. Kevin Pugh. I went to high school with him. He's at the University of Northern Colorado.

And he's one of the people that's on the leading edge of experiential learning. And he's talked about how school systems, it feels like they're still based off of 30, 40 years ago, pre-internet, where you didn't have access to so many things and that we need to do more experiential learning. And it sounds like with the role plays and that sort of thing, do you see that that experiential learning piece is really powerful with the autistic community?

Yes. Yes. The video modeling, them acting it out is the game changer. Okay. And that's where I would imagine it sounds like everyone could use more of that. And the reason I'm staying on this, one is I'm trying to find a joke to make about with Sarah and the theater because her kids were such amazing actors and actresses. But also, I have, oh, is there some of that, sir? There were a lot of children with autism in the theater program that our kids were involved in.

And the founder or the director, she really learned that there were concrete steps she could take to work with those children that helped them succeed in theater. So, I think that people on the spectrum really do love to have some concrete tools they can use. So, they're not having to think through everything. Am I doing this right? Am I doing this wrong? But they can have those concrete steps and it works in all facets of life, I feel like.

It does. It's funny you mentioned that. And I've been to have Lurie on here several times. I need to maybe do that, be intentional about that and talk about TNT and the play theory, I believe it was. Yes. But I remember my daughter going to one of the first practices and everybody got in a circle and they clapped and they said things and they talked about their unique traits. And some of them were really, really unique. And at that time, I remember just at first thinking, this is uncomfortable.

And by the end of that, I thought, man, these guys are living their best life. They're really embracing who they are. And I've never forgotten that. I had never forgotten that. And also maybe I'm dealing with my own discomfort of I'm trying to role play more with, I do a lot of couples therapy and I want them to be able to communicate with each other, but I found it more effective at times for me to play the role of the guy and or the female.

And I'm find myself still uncomfortable with the role playing, but I think it's so powerful. It is experiential. So I really love that you have that component so strong in your program. Okay. I love that. Yeah. What else do we need to know? Learning these skills should be about enhancing social interaction so others can appreciate who we already are. I like that. So the already are.

So is this go against that concept of masking of trying to figure out or be a certain person that someone else thinks that you should be? Exactly. Bringing our authentic selves. Okay. With skills that help our interactions. And is that something that has shifted over the years, in your opinion? Yes. Yes. As the autistic community has come to speak up for themselves and say, no, we are wonderful just the way we are. And...

These skills will enhance their lives. I love that. And maybe I can go on just a real quick acceptance and commitment therapy. Why I love it as a therapeutic modality is it starts with the I'm the only version of me. So I think and feel the way I do because I do.

And so as I shifted over from a cognitive behavioral therapy therapist to an acceptance and commitment therapy therapist, it is really fascinating to go back and look at the areas where I know that at some point, people need almost something to interact with to figure out who they are. But then that journey becomes theirs. So if someone's saying, I think that you would like this and they don't know what they like, that's probably fair for them to say, okay, I'll try it.

But then hopefully on that path, they will figure out, but I actually don't like this and I want to do this. And so they're in charge of their own. Just like all of us, just as I want more authentically in the world. How do I do that? How do I make better and deeper, stronger connections? I like what you're saying is, I think this is just maybe all parents, but if they are embarrassed of the way that their kid is acting, that is a them issue, the parents issue.

And so then they want their child to act a certain way so that then they feel better. And I know that comes from a good place as well. I don't want them to also get bullied. So I want them to show up a certain way. So I wonder, is that kind of what we're talking about too? I know we want our children to be seen positively. That's going to give them a lot of benefit in the world to have other parents like them, to respond positively to them.

And what I've found with my daughter who comes so authentic to this world and people that work with children see that and love it. And I think we are evolving as a society to see authenticity as a positive thing. And then there's just like all of us, we have these rough edges. We're going to smooth out how to enter that conversation without turning people off from us. And those are the skills we're going to be teaching. Okay. Anything else I want you guys to be able to talk about?

Where do people find you? And I would love to recommend this to therapists as well as civilians, people out in the wild. How are you getting the word out? Where do people find you? Thanks, Toti. Yes, our website is breakingsocialbarriers.com. And we also have a Facebook page. We're on Instagram as well. But yeah, they can sign up on our website. And we will be starting a new set of classes. Our first class is Friendship 101. So we'll be starting two sets of those classes in a few weeks.

Okay. And if they have specific questions, they can reach out to you, I would imagine? Yes. My email address is right on our website. Okay. So I'll put the links in there. Okay. I'm excited about this. I would love to encourage, I have a lot of therapists that listen to the virtual couch. And I just think embracing that things that we don't know that we don't know. And sometimes it's silly to say this, but I know a lot of therapists feel like they're supposed to know everything.

And I would love to encourage therapists listening to not just turn to Google to try to figure out how to help your people that have an autism diagnosis or feel like they have autistic traits and just cut to the chase and go to Sarah and Carla. And you can talk to your client about what that's like for them, but get the real tools there. Yeah, but I really like hearing that you're still helping this person stay as they are themselves and use their own traits, talents, and then giving them

the tools to then act within that. I really like that a lot. And also, they don't need to have a diagnosis to take our course. Thank you. They can be self-diagnosed or just lonely and they don't know how to get out and make friends. So this course really is available to anyone that's feeling any kind of social anxiety. That's brilliant. All right, Sarah and Carla, this is so much fun.

I appreciate, I feel like I learned a lot and I'll put all the links and we'll try to get some fun clips and get that out there and spread the word. So thanks so much for coming on. Thanks, Tommy. Okay, thank you.