Music. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 380 of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker,
husband, father of four, and creator of The Path Back. And I want to, calling all therapists is what I want to say, if you are interested in hearing about maybe a new program that is coming up that I am working with, someone that I am very, I realize I'm being so vague, someone that I'm excited to work with someone that I've worked with in the past but we are we are starting to kick around some ideas of something that I think will be very
beneficial to therapists. I know a lot of therapists listen to the podcast so I'm in a in a pre-production or pre-planning phase of a course of a program that I think will be very beneficial to therapists. Therapists who are looking at maybe doing a little bit more coaching so if you are interested please reach out to me at contact at tonyoverbay.com and I will start putting more information together. And then if you are interested in the path back, go to pathbackrecovery.com and you'll
find more information about how to get rid of unhealthy coping mechanisms. People who turn to porn as an unhealthy coping mechanism. And then I would just highly encourage you to check out Waking Up to Narcissism and Murder on the Couch and all kinds of things that are in the link tree link in the show notes. But let's get to today's show. I'm really
excited about this. I'm gonna try to put a few different pieces together. I want to talk about one of my favorite things is our brain's adorable desire for certainty where we want to just know. We just want to know and feel like we just have certainty that things make sense in the world because without that certainty, we can have a lot of discomfort and discomfort
can lead to anxiety. And then what do we do with that anxiety? Well, sometimes we turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms or sometimes we just ruminate and we worry and we miss out on a lot of opportunities in life. And I'm not trying to say that it's as simple as just... Not doing it or, you know, somebody saying, well, don't worry about things.
So, we're not going to talk about that. But I'm going to try to lay out a path today of talking about certainty, talking about memory, and then talking about some of the defense mechanisms that we use to get rid of this feeling of discomfort. And then hopefully we'll land the plane at the end with some solutions on what to do in order to help you still feel and acknowledge and think all the things that you're going to feel and acknowledge and think.
But then what do we do next? And it's not just a simple form of distraction, but it's a way to start creating a whole new set of neuropathways so that what it. Feels like to be you as somebody who can be in a moment, can feel all the feelings and emotions, cannot run away or avoid or hide from things because of that fear of, of the unknown. And, and then gradually over time. You just really start to feel like you're just more in the moment.
And I wasn't even going to tell the story, but let me tell a story that happened over the weekend and actually had a. A couple of things that have happened over the last few weeks where I just keep reiterating to my family, they're probably getting tired of this, but just saying that these concepts of mindfulness and being present and recognizing the discomfort that I have and not wanting to just simply ignore the discomfort or not think things, how I feel like I've had some good
examples lately of what that can look like in the grand scheme of things. So, I'll start with one that happened just a few weeks ago. I was flying back to Utah to hang out with my daughter who was moving apartments and we had an amazing, amazing fun time. But when I got to the airport, my flight was delayed two or three hours. And so I noted that I noticed that I found myself wishing that I had known sooner because then maybe I could
have gone home after work and maybe got in a workout or that sort of thing. But, well, it happened. So there I was in the airport and I was able to get some things done and watch some shows and eat good food and and just make the most out of that
opportunity. But then I was rerouted to a different airport and I had a connecting flight and the the longer that this delay was taking the more I started recognizing and noticing that I may miss my connecting flight and have to spend the night in a city that was not Utah where I was gonna meet my daughter and I was only flying in for a day and a half to help her take care of this move and
just to hang out a little bit. So I was definitely noticing a lot of thoughts and emotions and feelings, but again, I'm in an airplane and there's not a lot I can do, So I just was pretty present and able to. To watch some things and eat some things and just be. But where I really noticed that concept of mindfulness kicking in was when we landed. I was routed to Phoenix. We landed in Phoenix and I had a real tight connection and I had to go to a different terminal.
And the pilot or whoever came on and said, we have some people that need to get off the plane quickly. So, if everybody can just stay in their seats when we get to the gate and those people that need to go, if they can just go. So, I'm thinking, oh, that's kind of nice. So, maybe I will make this next flight. And then when the ding, the bell rings and we were at the gate, then of course, everybody stands up and piles into the aisle and then nobody goes anywhere.
So there were some people that were getting very frustrated and saying, I got to go, I got to get to Salt Lake. And I was noticing, well, I was one of those people too, but there really wasn't a lot that we could do about it. And my wife and my daughter were texting and they were being so kind and saying, I am so sorry, this must be stressful. And I was thinking, I think I'm okay.
And then I got out of the airplane and then I did do a little bit of a mad dash and somebody saw me and they put me on one of those carts and we went as fast as we could and I made the connecting flight, no problem. But I noticed that it really was just a matter of these things are happening and I could get really angry and frustrated and upset, but that really wasn't going to do anything for me. And so just be and just do and just kind of make the most of the moment.
And it was a really nice thing. It's one of those things where I unfortunately don't feel like this is something that you can just decide I'm going to do at the last minute is just be and do and and not get worked up because your visceral or gut reaction is already working ahead of your logical thought process so this is something that you really do need to practice on a daily basis and unfortunately that means practicing mindfulness even when you're feeling okay because you you have to
have that almost that muscle memory or that repetition or telling your, you know, teaching your brain to have a different relationship with thoughts and feelings and emotions when. The waters are calm so that then when the waters are not calm, your brain already knows what to do. So, fast forward to a couple of nights ago and my wife and daughter and I
stopped to get yogurt and I am not a fan of my yogurt being melty. So, we're on our way home and I just glance ahead and there's a long line of cars and we live in a fairly small town and I thought, oh man, there's road construction and there's other ways to get to my house. So I just flip a U-turn and right as I'm doing that, I see a cop flip
his lights on and I just think, oh man, that was probably not the right thing to do. And, so then I drive a little ways and I pull over, but here's the, here's the thing again, it happened and his lights were on and my wife and daughter were kind of laughing and making
fun of me a little bit. And I really, I can tell you that it's one of those things where I know in the past when I've been pulled over and I felt like, whoa, I shouldn't have done that and what's wrong with me and I'm a big piece of garbage and I can't even believe it. And if you've been pulled over, maybe you even say, oh, this cop and why did they even do this? And maybe they were trying to meet some quota and everything just seems so unfair.
But in reality, it happened. And so then he pulls over and I even thought I'm not going to try to say I didn't know or I don't know, make up some excuse or story because that isn't isn't going to feel very good. It's not going to be something that is in line with the value of being trying to be authentic as best as I can and being consistent and being honest and dealing with consequences and acceptance and that's okay. So, when he, when I rolled the window down
and he said, hey, do you know why I pulled you over? And I said, totally. I flipped a U-turn there and I'm pretty sure I'm not. But I said, but we've got some yogurt that's going to melt. Nobody likes melted yogurt. And he was kind of fun. He said, yeah, nobody really does, but can I get your license? So, I do. And then my wife pulls out the phone and she films a video and this shows, oh, dad got pulled over and sends it to our family
group chat. And then he came back and he was just really kind and he said, hey, don't, across double yellow lines and I said, no problem. And then we drove away and then she filmed again and tried to say some funny things. But what I loved about that experience was again, I didn't notice my heart rate elevating. As a matter of fact, it was just that happened. And if I got a ticket, then I would pay it because that's what happened.
And my daughter even said, well, what if you would have got the ticket though? Would you, do you think you really would still feel calm? And I said, I really do. And I feel like this is just a thing where those things happen and then what are you gonna do? Because if I would have beat myself up, What am I wanting my daughter and my wife to say? Oh, it's okay. When in reality, we all kind of do things. We all make mistakes.
We all make impulsive decisions. We all are trying our best and then sometimes things happen. And the best way to work with that is to just accept it and then be in that moment because we just had a shared experience. I got pulled over and now we have a story to tell.
So I share those things because, and here I'm saying these things and watch somebody later today might say something and I'll flip my lid or lose my top or maybe you flip your top or lose your lid or one of the things, but something like that could happen. But let me get more into today's topic. I'm going to refer to two or three studies that we're going to start with talking about the concepts around memory.
Because I think there's a few pieces to put together. One of those is that we often do feel like we remember things and we remember things perfectly. And so sometimes if there's a discrepancy in somebody else's memory of things, then that makes us uncomfortable. And now we feel like we need some certainty. We need to make sure that we're right or they're right. Instead of life not being some zero-sum game where there's a right and a wrong, where we could both have our own opinions.
So I wanna set the table by giving a couple of examples of studies about memory, and you may have heard some of these on previous episodes of The Virtual Couch. But the first one I'll start with is referred to as the FLASHbulb Memory Study, and this was conducted by psychologists, I think it's Ulrich Neisser and Nicole Harsh. And this research is, it's a cornerstone in understanding the nature of human memory, especially in the context of impactful public events.
And I think the reason why the flashbulb memory study is so powerful, and we'll get to some that are maybe less as intense, is that if we actually can't remember exact memories of these big impactful moments, then why do we think that we have to have perfect memory about little things that happen on a day-to-day basis?
And as a matter of fact, one of the things I think is just so fascinating is my wife and I were, we were somewhere and we were talking about the American Idol hit, I don't think that was the case, but General Larry something, his song Pants on the Ground, if you have not ever heard this, I don't know.
I don't know if I want you to waste three minutes of your time and then think of me in that same relational frame, but it was funny because we were sitting there thinking, I just came up and we were saying, oh, wasn't he like a homeless guy that got on American Idol and I wonder where he is?
So I Googled it and oh no, he was a general who worked with the homeless population whose wife, almost like on a dare, said go try out for American Idol and he did a rap and it kind of went big for a little bit. But what was fascinating is she and I, my wife and I both had different memories of even who he was or what the situation was about. And this was this cultural phenomenon that I think we were seeing in pants on the ground for a little while.
So, not trying to say that if you can't even remember the details around viral sensation, General Larry in pants on the ground, then how can I tell my spouse that, no, you said this last week. So back to this flashbulb memory study. So this was about the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster, which occurred on January 28th in 1986. on that day! Unfortunately, the Challenger exploded and it shortly after launch and it led to the
deaths of all seven crew members on board. And this was, it was broadcast live. I remember being in my English teacher, Mrs. Olson's class. It was my sophomore year of high school. It was, it was broadcast live viewed by millions, including so many school kids because one of the astronauts on board was Krista McAuliffe, who was set to be the first teacher in space.
But then here's what was fascinating was the day after the disaster, Neisser and Harsh asked 106 students in a psychology class to write down where they were when they heard the news, who they were with, what they were doing, and how they felt about it. And this was the first record of their flashbulb memory. So this highly detailed, exceptionally vivid snapshot memory. Now then, two and a half years later, they asked the same students
the same questions. What they found was that 25% of the students' accounts were significantly different than their original account, and half of them were at least somewhat different. So over half of them still had completely different memories of this intense flashbulb memory moment that so many people that were alive at that time remember very well. But. Some students even denied that they had ever even filled out the original questionnaire.
That's the part that's kind of mind-blowing. So despite these inaccuracies, though, the students reported a real high confidence in their memory. They believe that their recollections of their memories were correct, even when they were presented with their own previous
accounts that contradicted them. And if you dig a little bit deeper into that, so some of them would even say, well, I don't, I, that isn't, I mean, that's my writing, but I know that I didn't say that, so I don't why you did that. And in that study challenges this notion of these indelible flashbulb memories. And it demonstrates that memory is not a perfect record of our experiences. So even for highly emotional or impactful events, our memories can be flawed and they can change over time.
Another famous one is called Lost in the Mall. And this is again about the fallibility of human memory. And this was a lot of the, if you really want to look at some fascinating memory experiments, There was a psychologist named Elizabeth Loftus, and her and her colleagues did a lot of these, but this one was in the mid-90s. So the goal of this study was to demonstrate the concept of false memories. So memories are events that actually never happened.
So Loftus wanted to prove that it's possible to even implant false memories in individuals, which could be recalled later with confidence as if they were real. And not to go off on too big of a tangent, but in the world of emotional immaturity and narcissism that I work with. And you look at this concept of confabulated memory, where with confabulation, this is where the emotionally mature narcissist will change the narrative of the memory.
I mean, they will change what happened because it had to be what they believed. And I have had examples where a spouse has completely taken over the memory that the other spouse has shared as now if it was theirs. One of the most, one of the biggest examples of this at one point was a woman who had shared with me that I think she'd had a pretty, pretty successful high school rodeo career. And she
had been married to the, her husband for a long time, I think over 30 years. And the stories now were that it was his successful high school rodeo career when he actually had never really been much on a horse. But if you asked him about it, which I did, it. Was his, it was his career. And he could tell you all kinds of things about it, even though she's the one that had the newspaper clippings. So it can be really fascinating when you look
at it that way. So, in the study then, Loftus asked participants' family members to provide descriptions of childhood events. So, the researchers then added a fabricated event about the participant being lost in a shopping mall at around the age of five. So, this made-up event included realistic but completely fictional details, such as being rescued by an elderly
woman and reunited with their family. So, the participants were then asked to recall as many of the events as they could, and around 25% of the subjects recalled this fictitious lost in the mall event as if it were a real memory. So despite the fact that the event was absolutely made up, the participants were able to remember it, creating very vivid and detailed recollections. And so this experiment is often used as this evidence of this, again,
the fallibility of human memory, and then how susceptible we can be to suggestion. So if we can't even remember these big, intense flashbulb memories, or if we can also be very susceptible to suggestion, where things are almost implanted into our memory, then again, Can I go back to this? Can we get to this place where we can just be more accepting of, oh, I thought that's what happened, versus the, no, you're wrong.
And Loftus' work in this field, I mean, she's done so much in it, but it had all kinds of implications, especially also in the context of eyewitness testimony and legal proceedings. And this has been just so interesting as I've watched this Lori Vallow Daybell trial, and my daughter Sydney and I are going to do more about that over on the Murder on the Couch
podcast. But it is really interesting to see the justice system founded off of a lot of the eyewitness testimony and memory, and where then memory is entered into record, and then we go a few years later and then when the when a trial actually happens and now you are going off of that memory that you said happened a few years ago and sometimes that memory
a few years ago was about something that happened long before that. So, that can just be really interesting so it demonstrates that the memory may not always be reliable and it can be manipulated or distorted over time. And then as I was digging I found one that I had never heard of it's called Bugs Bunny at Disneyland and as a Disneyland fan I just thought this one
was kind of kind of funny. So in this one again conducted by Elizabeth Loftus and her colleagues, researchers were interested in demonstrating how false memories can be implanted to events that then are actually, I mean, they're impossible in this scenario. So the participants of the study were shown advertisements for Disneyland that included Bugs Bunny, who is a character from Warner Brothers, not Disney. And people were just subjected to the ads
over and over. And after viewing the ads, many of the participants claimed then that they remember meeting and shaking hands with Bugs Bunny when they visited Disneyland as a kid. An impossible event, since Bugs Bunny is not a Disney character, would never be found at Disneyland. So like this lost in the mall study, this experiment shows how suggestion and manipulation can create false memories. So even of things that couldn't possibly have occurred.
So then it just shows this, again, an unreliability of human memory, and it underscores the impact that other suggestions or misinformation can have on our recollection of events. I've got one more Elizabeth Loftus study. This is called Misinformation Effect, and this one was designed to show how introducing misleading information after an event can distort memories. So participants were shown images of a car accident, and then they were asked questions about what they saw.
However, the way that the questions were worded differed between groups. So some participants were asked, how fast were the cars going when they smashed into each other? And then others were asked the same question, but with the verb hit instead of smashed. So when the word smashed was used, participants estimated the cars were going much faster than when the word hit was used.
And then she did a follow-up study where participants were asked a week later whether they had seen any broken glass in the images. So, those who had heard the word smashed were more likely to incorrectly remember seeing broken glass, even though there was no broken glass in the images. So this study demonstrates how the way that we frame our word questions can even influence and distort people's recollections of an event.
So it's another example of how our memories are not fixed or completely reliable, but can be changed by post-event information, even when that information is subtly presented or it's even unintentional. And again, I don't want this to sound like, so we're all nuts and crazy and just forget about it. When there is no certainty and what are you supposed to do?
So absolutely that is not where I'm trying to go with this, but it's again where the, desire for certainty, we can ruminate and fixate and argue and defend when so much of that is just wasted emotional calories and energy. And I really appreciate, I feel like in my home, because we talk about this confabulated memory or just a lot of these concepts of memory where it's a lot easier to say, oh, yeah, I remember it differently. Or, oh, that's so funny, I thought it was something
else. And when I go into my four pillars of a connected conversation, again, that first pillar is assuming good intentions or there's a reason why somebody says or does the things they do. And that second pillar is that you cannot tell somebody else that that is wrong or I disagree or I never said that or, you know, I can't believe you did that. And again, Even if you think that they are wrong or you don't believe that you said that or you don't think that they did that.
The reason why is that's a really easy way to take a conversation down into the weeds because our memories are just so, again, so malleable. They cannot be based on fact. So if we are going to argue then about our memories, then we're going to go off into the weeds and we're going to waste a lot of time and effort. So, so often, we really believe that our own mind or our own memory cannot possibly be inaccurate.
Even to the point where instead of just saying, oh, I remember that differently, or trying to break somebody else's argument down, or break down their reality, one of the most powerful things I think we can do as humans is say, Oh, I didn't realize that.
Or my bad or I must have gotten that wrong or I remembered it differently but tell me more about how you remembered it and I believe that the more that we can understand that we are all just truly trying to do the best that we can that nobody holds the patent or has exclusivity on the correct memories especially your memories or my memories then the more we can stop beating ourselves up or trying to control others and we can just start to learn to be and to do and to discover and to
to love and to appreciate and to be curious. And over time, what it feels like to be you or me becomes less intense and more along the lines of, oh, things happen. And now what do we do? How do we connect? Because I feel like we are often just so stuck, again, on being certain that we just have to find this certainty. You know, was it Tuesday or Wednesday? Were you wearing the red shirt or the green one? I don't know. But if we can argue about it for a minute or two,
now we can already get our fight or flight responses going. And then I'm sure everything will play out perfectly as we continue to try and communicate. and yes, you can be certain that I am using sarcasm. But again, we want certainty because without it, here we go, we feel uncomfortable.
So we're gonna continue to talk more today about spending some time on then what we do with discomfort because I truly believe that sitting with and dealing with or dealing maturely with discomfort is some of the most powerful things that we can learn to do as human beings. So let's again go, let's talk about the mind in general, the human mind, it is this incredibly complex device. And our emotions and our thoughts and memories can so often feel like this vast interconnected web.
So certainty, when it comes to our internal experiences, is not always attainable. But it's not even desirable when you start to learn that we are all just trying to make sense of things that oftentimes don't make sense. And when we can drop the rope of the tug of war of trying to find certainty or trying to make sense things, then we can move forward. Then we won't be as stuck. So, why wouldn't certainty, you know, why wouldn't that be something that would be attainable or
even desirable? Well, let me break down a few reasons. So, first, emotions. So, our emotions, they are fluid and they can change based on our environment, on our thoughts, on our physical state, and so much more. So, it is so common to experience a lot of different emotions simultaneously, which can even further or complicate our understanding and make us feel uncomfortable.
Because emotions are not always logical, they're certainly not always predictable, so trying to achieve certainty about why we feel a certain way, or what exactly we're feeling, can be a difficult, if not, honestly, an impossible task. So that's why noticing becomes such an important thing. I'm noticing that I'm feeling angry, I'm noticing that I'm feeling sad, I am feeling sad, you know, or I am feeling angry, and that's okay.
Let's check those feelings out, and let's start to change our relationship with our thoughts, with our emotions, and with our feelings. So next up then, why? Again, why is the desire to be certain not always attainable or even desirable? So we talked about emotions. Next up is thoughts. Because our thoughts, you know, those are continuously also influenced by a lot of different factors, including, again, our emotions, our
experiences, our biases, and more. And our thoughts are not static, and they can be influenced by changes in our mood, in our environment, our situation. So certainty in our thoughts, it can be elusive because our perspectives and our interpretations can shift in any given moment. And that's why I feel like it is more important to notice our thoughts. And when we continually say,
well, just change your thought. Well, I can do that for a moment. But then if I'm just trying to change my thought and think, oh, I need to be happy instead of feeling frustrated, I'm actually going against my core sense of self. No, I need to recognize, oh, yeah, I'm feeling frustrated. I'm noticing that because if I can just step back and notice it, then I can think, okay, nothing's wrong with me. It's not stinking thinking. It's not, I'm not broken.
So nothing's wrong with me. And then if I tell myself, well, we'll stop thinking that, okay, let's stop thinking about the, again, the polar bear wearing a top hat. He's very, very sophisticated polar bear. As a matter of fact, I think he has a monocle. So think of that and he's holding a cane, maybe he has a bow tie, but all of a sudden he's plaid. So yeah, don't don't think any of those things. And then also, they're saying, instead of this,
think that. Or how about we just notice that we're thinking? So, that is the most productive way I have found to then start to recognize that we have lots of thoughts, lots of emotions. So, let's get to memories then. Human memory, again, is not like a perfect recording of events. It's a reconstructive process. So, that means that our memories, they can be influenced by so many different factors, and it can be influenced by those factors in that very moment of how you feel, what you just did,
what you just saw. And so our memories, they can change over time. So research shows that if we, every time we recall a memory, we are actually remembering the last time that we remembered it rather than the event itself. And this makes memories even more susceptible to changes and inaccuracies. So therefore certainty about past events, it can be elusive.
And in the Buddha brain, when Rick Hansen talks about the mechanisms of memory, or the machinery of memory, then he talks about if you just can think of a memory right now. And I think in one of the podcasts before, I did use a Disneyland example. And I thought, okay, if I just bring up Disneyland, I went there over Christmas with a bunch of my family. And if I think about it, I think about, oh, I enjoyed the Airbnb, and I really liked the Guardians of the Galaxy ride.
And when we waited in a incredibly long line for Star Wars, we played a lot of games, and I drank Diet Coke out of a little round bottle. So there's my memory. So now when I put that memory away, that's a pretty pleasant memory. So the next time I bring it up, it starts from there, and then if what it feels like to be me is fairly positive, then I'm gonna add a lot of additional information in there that is positive.
Now, if I'm having a horrible day right now, and maybe I'm struggling financially, and I think about how expensive that entire trip was, then I may think when I bring this memory up, man, that place was expensive. And that round bottle of Diet Coke wasn't even 10 ounces and it was $7 and then I could start beating myself up.
But, and if somebody, if their immediate thought was, oh yeah, I remember Disneyland and we had those really long lines and it was so boring and the Airbnb had this little dip in the driveway where you had to watch your car, you had to go back at an angle or else you would scrape the bottom. So that those memories, you know, every time that you put it back away, you're packing it full of all the information that you just added to it.
So we go back to that, you know, seeking absolute certainty in these areas can lead to frustration and stress because our inner experiences are fluid, they're changeable. And I think we don't recognize that enough. So instead it can be more beneficial to cultivate this sense of acceptance for our emotions, our thoughts, and our memories as they are, even if they're uncertain or even sometimes when they're contradictory. Oh, okay, I forgot that, you know, that kind of a concept.
Now, how do you work with that? And in therapy, we use a lot of techniques like mindfulness, or my favorite, that is one of my favorites, and acceptance, acceptance and commitment therapy. I mean, these are these tools that help individuals navigate this complexity and this uncertainty in a more balanced way. And I really feel like it is so important to have a framework to operate from.
That's why I preach, act every chance I get, that if I can accept the fact that I'm thinking and feeling because I'm me and I'm a human being, then that doesn't take the, it doesn't feel as negative or as negatively impactful. So what that leads though is that, you know, we're looking for that certainty again.
It can cause us to feel uncomfortable. So now let's talk a little bit about that avoidance of discomfort, and especially emotional discomfort, that honestly, that's a pretty fundamental part of human behavior. And if we look all the way back in time, we can trace this wanting to avoid discomfort, back to our basic survival instincts. Because in the past, discomfort often signaled a threat to our survival or our wellbeing. But now, today, that discomfort can be emotional rather than physical.
But there's a neural overlap in where physical and emotional pain reside in our brains. So when we feel this emotional pain, then we also view it as a threat, just like physical pain. And so we want to lash out and we wanna respond. So those instincts remain there. So it takes intentional effort to then recognize that these are thoughts and feelings and emotions. So let me tell you a few of the reasons why people then want to avoid this emotional discomfort.
One of the biggest ones I think is fear of vulnerability, Because if you are gonna deal with your uncomfortable emotions, that is gonna require you to be vulnerable, which is scary. And as a therapist, I love, I love, I was gonna say love nothing more. I'm sure there are some things that maybe I love more, but I love when clients come in and they get open and vulnerable and they are talking about uncomfortable emotions.
And then when I say, man, tell me more, that sounds hard. Then what did you do? That when it is, when you can provide a safe place, when somebody is expressing these scary vulnerable emotions and feelings, then it can just really help somebody just start to recognize they're okay. They're just having some thoughts and feelings and emotions.
So, vulnerability might lead sometimes to perceive weakness or the fear that somebody else is going to hurt you because you're opening up about your feelings and your emotions. Again, if that's scary and if you do that to the wrong person, then they may use that against you.
I go back to my work with emotionally immature narcissistic people, and that's why when you open up and you share your soul, that then unfortunately, then you just handed that person buttons to push when they want to be more emotionally manipulative or abusive. Another reason why we avoid emotional discomfort is just simple pain avoidance.
I mean that one simply put uncomfortable emotions are unpleasant and again it's human nature to want to avoid pain and to seek comfort and that's why I find that working with sitting with discomfort is also a huge piece of helping people overcome addictive behaviors and tendencies and turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms because when people feel uncomfortable with their emotions, they feel bad about themselves, they think they've done something wrong, or
that somebody's going to get angry or mad at them, then they often want to avoid those uncomfortable emotions and then seek comfort. Another reason why we may avoid emotional discomfort is just the stigma or social norms. You know, in so many societies, showing emotions like sadness or fear is stigmatized. All of a sudden you're weak or you can't hold positions of authority or power. And so this can make it really difficult for people to comfortably express or even just confront these emotions.
So they just have to stuff these emotions and feel like they must have to deal with them later or they feel like what is wrong with them for having these feelings and emotions. I think one of the biggest things, though, one of the biggest challenges of why people avoid emotional discomfort is they lack the emotional skills. Because I want to say not everybody has been taught how to deal with uncomfortable emotions.
I don't think many people at all have truly been taught how to deal with uncomfortable emotions. And I feel like a lot of the information out there that is saying how you do it is actually incorrect. You know, it's certainly not just don't worry about it, just get over it, just think something else. It's those are the things I think that are actually almost making things worse. Because in the absence of really good, effective coping skills, then avoidance sometimes seems like the only option.
I know I shouldn't think this. I know I need to not do this. And those are just not helpful in the long run, especially. And then there's also, and this one's real, a fear of losing control. Because I think some people fear that if they allow themselves to fully feel their emotions, then they are going to be overwhelmed. They're going to lose control. They're going to start yelling and maybe they're going to start punching.
Who knows? But they are so afraid of losing control that then they really don't want to embrace that emotional discomfort again, especially if they don't have the skills or the tools. And then there's there's one more. I mean, I jotted down avoidance of reality because sometimes people use avoidance as a way to escape from the realities of their life.
If somebody is unhappy with aspects of their life, then they might avoid dealing with their feelings as a way to avoid dealing with those realities. And they just kick that can down the road further and further and they say that even they'll say I'll deal with this later. But that one is really difficult because the longer that you don't deal with something, now we go back to that implicit memory or what it feels like to be you is based off of the slow residue of your lived experience.
So if you are not doing and not working and especially with the wrong tools, then over time if you're thinking I'll eventually just get over it, Unfortunately, I worry that's just a story your brain's telling you in order to avoid having to do some of the really scary things or doing the hard work. So, while avoidance can provide temporary relief, it usually doesn't solve this underlying issue and it can actually amplify over time.
So, healthy coping strategies like mindfulness, going to therapy, and then emotional regulation techniques, you know, practicing just dealing with your own emotions, sitting with them and then noticing it goes back to, in essence, the mindfulness or acceptance where I talk about, okay, accepting the fact that I have anxiety and then I'm not trying to do everything I can to avoid the uncomfortable feelings.
I work with people that are trying to reconnect emotionally, reconnect physically, sexually, any of these things, and there is this fine line of accepting and understanding where you are as a human being and listening to your body and your emotions, but then at some point, if you are trying to repair a relationship or recover from a betrayal and you have a spouse that is willing to participate and they're actively doing their own work,
then at some point, again, It's acknowledging and recognizing. Are you trying to avoid discomfort? Are you trying to avoid what is happening right now? Are you afraid you will lose control? Do you lack the emotional skills? Are you trying to just simply avoid pain or is there a fear of being vulnerable? So that leads to another thing that I think is interesting. I have people often, very, very often, well, let me go back really quick. I talked about that avoidance of reality.
I just jotted down one more note here because avoidance does provide temporary relief. And that's why we do it, because I feel like sometimes people say, OK, I just I don't want to deal with it right now. So avoidance, again, it will provide temporary relief. And especially when you turn to a coping mechanism like your phone, like a game, like Instagram, like a podcast. I mean, and I love those things. I do those things as well.
You can even turn to healthy coping mechanisms like continually turning to to exercise or those sort of things. But are you doing that again as an avoidance technique or are you doing that as a way to raise your baseline and self-care? So, while avoidance again provides that temporary relief, it usually does not solve the underlying issue and then it actually can make it amplify over time.
So, back to healthy coping strategies, that mindfulness therapy, emotional regulation techniques, those are more beneficial in the long run because those methods help people to confront and manage uncomfortable feelings. And that leads to greater emotional resilience and well-being and I go back to Sue Johnson, her quote in the world of emotionally focused therapy that we are designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human being.
So when you have two people that are willing and active and trying to do the work to improve and heal, then you can do some pretty magical things in your relationship, but you are going to have to be vulnerable and it will feel uncomfortable. And at some point, it will be time to lean in and start to trust. So I did an episode a few weeks ago on trust and I found a quote that I really enjoy and I'm gonna read this directly from the transcript.
So I said, love him or hate him, psychologist Jordan Peterson has some very interesting info on the web about marriage and trust and here's what he said. He said there is no marriage that's successful without trust. He said you have to tell each other the truth and he
said it sounds easy right? Well actually no. He explains telling the truth to somebody is no simple thing because there are a bunch of things about all of us that are terrible and weak and reprehensible and shameful and all of those things have to be brought out into the open and dealt with. And he said, that is why true honesty can be so difficult, that we all have this baggage and then we all wanna hide it. And as Pearson said, there's a natural tendency to avoid being open with somebody
who can run away screaming when you reveal who you are. And that's for this reason, Pearson said, that humans make marriage this kind of inseparable bond. And here's the quote that I really thought was so powerful. He said, I am going to handcuff myself to you and you're gonna handcuff yourself to me. And then we're going to get to tell each other the truth, and neither of us get to run away.
And once we know the truth, then we're either going to live together in mutual torment or we're gonna try and deal with that truth and straighten ourselves out, and straighten ourselves out jointly. And that's going to make us more powerful and more resilient and deeper and wiser. As we progress together through life. And it is one of the most honest and insightful kind of beautiful descriptions of marriage that I think I've seen.
Peterson's getting at the truth that every married person knows marriage is humbling. And when you get married, you are essentially giving a person this power to destroy you.
Marriage becomes this act of mutual submission. Now, I know I've got an entirely separate podcast talking about emotional immaturity and narcissism, and this is not saying that then you have to handcuff yourself to this person and then, well, that's the way it works, because this is still playing off of the we don't know what we don't know, and that both people are willing to, what we're talking about this entire episode, self-reflect, sit with discomfort.
What am I pretending not to know? That I want to grow, and I want my partner to grow as well. That it is not about control. It's about love, you can't have both. And so in that scenario, I thought of something that maybe is probably not the best visual, but if you are willing to work on this together, then yeah, that handcuff analogy is wonderful. You're handcuffed together, you're gonna figure this out, or you're gonna drag each other around in mutual torment.
If you are in a relationship with an emotionally immature, abusive, or narcissistic person, that's where you're gnawing that hand off, just to get away at all costs, and you're willing to go handcuff your lack of a hand to somebody if they're still gonna be safe, and you're gonna feel grateful that at least you still have another hand and another arm to deal with.
So going along with this transcript on the episode I did about trust, I just wanna continue because after I gave that quote from Jordan Peterson, then I did, I talked about, okay, can I trust you? Are you there for me? Can I count on you? Do you love me? Are you willing to accept me as I am? And then from Sue Johnson in her book, Love Sins, she said, the message touted by popular media and therapists has been that we are supposed to be and total control of our emotions before we turn to others.
Love yourself first, and then another will love you. But, she said, our new knowledge stands that message on its head. For humans, says psychologist Ed Tronick of the University of Massachusetts, the maintenance of emotional balance is a dyadic, collaborative process. In other words, and actually I guess it's Ed Tronick that always says this, and I've confabulated this to be Sue Johnson, but he said, we are designed to deal
with emotion in concert with another person, not by ourselves. And that's where I'll add my part, where we are actually these little attachment-based creatures. We're born little pink, squishy babies that rely upon someone else for our sustenance, for our life, to change our diapers. And we are not rhinoceroses who can go off after 30 minutes or an hour of being born and kill our
own food and go about our own lives. So that continues moving forward. And if we can find someone safe, then we can both mature together and we can develop into these two differentiated individuals that are interdependent, not codependent. And of course, we have our own thoughts and feelings and emotions and what a joy to go through that experience with someone else because I want to be better. And I'm presenting a version of myself out there to my partner and
the world. And at some point I need to be able to self-confront, self-reflect and say, hey, this is the way I think I'm showing up. What are your thoughts? And if they're saying, I see that, but here's the way that it's coming across. And if I know that I'm doing the work
that I need to do, then I can either take that information in and say, okay, I hear you. I kind I kind of feel like that I've got that part down, but I'll take a look at that other part that you're telling me, because I wanna grow. And the more that we can work on that together, then we're doing the whole one plus one is three, edifying each other, and now what a joy to go through life with a partner. Not what a pain, not what a, you know, what does he mean, what is she saying?
I can't believe they did that, I can't believe they said that. What you need to understand is, and all that stuff that just is a big old waste emotional time and calories. So, the fun part is I am almost 45 minutes into this episode and I really haven't even got to the part that I wanted to talk about, which is some amazing concepts around signal anxiety and displacement of anger or displacement of emotions versus projection and a whole lot of other nerdy psychology things.
So, I am going to call it a day. We're going to call this part one and I really am going to get to part two. It's funny, I know there are some episodes of days gone by where I have felt like part two is right around the corner and it's taken a little while, but this is something that I just, I want to complete this episode.
I want to be able to give you not only the awareness around what we do with uncomfortable emotions and feelings and this desire, this adorable desire we have for absolute certainty and the discomfort that can cause us, but I also want to get to the tools of how you work with this because this is such a key component.
And I feel like once you see the fact that I feel like most all of us are trying to figure out how to deal with uncertainty, anxiety, how we're looking for just, we want to know, we want to have answers and we can ruminate and worry that when we recognize that the tools that I think are out there right now in the mental health world are, well, a lot of them I think actually cause a little more worry and a little more anxiety and a little more of the what's wrong with me.
And instead of starting with this framework of that you're broken, that you have this stinking thinking or these automatic negative thoughts, what if you just have thoughts and feelings and emotions because you are a human being and you're the only one that is you. And with all of your DNA, nature, nurture, and birth order and abandonment, rejection and hope streams and fears and all those wonderful things. And so when you start from that place, then it's a check this out.
Here are my thoughts, here are my emotions, here are my feelings. And once I learned that, oh yeah, some of them are uncomfortable, but now what do I do with them?
And if I can start doing things that matter, then it's gonna speed up the entire process and surely, but kind of slowly, what it feels like to be you is gonna start to feel more hopeful and you're gonna be more present and you're gonna be more in the moment and accepting and you're gonna be, just find a lot more sense of purpose and joy in life. And so that would be amazing.
I wanna help you get there. So if you have questions or thoughts or anything around even this part one, send them in, contact at tonyoverbay.com and I will see you very shortly with part two next time on the virtual couch taking us out per usual the wonderful the talented Aurora Florence with her song and it's wonderful because it's. Music.