Music. Hey everybody, welcome to episode 394 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and creator of The Path Back, an online pornography recovery program that is helping people reclaim their lives, become the best versions they can be, all those wonderful things.
And if you reach out to me directly at contact at TonyOverbay.com and you are interested, I will respond back with a coupon code. And please go check out the link tree in the show notes or visit tonyoverbay.com and sign up for my newsletter because there is where you are starting to consistently hear about all the latest when it comes to upcoming courses and content and episode recaps and witty, clever quotes and all those things that I've always dreamt of with a newsletter.
And this just in, I started a new Instagram account specifically based off the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast because that podcast just continues to blow me away with the support and the reach and its growth and it no longer has to tag along with its older brother or sister, the virtual couch. And so it has its own Instagram account. So look for that in the show notes as well, or search for it on Instagram. The name is W, waking up, WUTNpod.com, or nope, that's not a dot com.
We are on Instagram. I am sounding like an old man. It is at WT, waking up. I really want to keep this in and not edit it because this is this is a funny thing. Let's try this one more time. W-u-t-n pod and that is on Instagram. So there is no dot-com Thank you very much. Now. Let me paint you a picture to set up today's podcast.
When I was becoming a father a brand new father the only Screen time that I think we really worried about was an occasional Saturday morning cartoon And I really even think that was something that I anticipated as a dad more than my kids actually did, because I feel like they weren't even as much of a fan of Saturday morning cartoons as I had hoped they would be. So, I'm the one that probably watched them while they played.
And if you think about parenting advice, that only came from a couple of very large paperback books. I think one was called What to Expect When You're Expecting. But there was no such thing as social media, as wild as that sounds. And I know there was internet, but I also remember that being America Online or CompuServe. And I don't quite remember the internet necessarily being a place that you went for information. It seemed more just a place for entertainment.
Now fast forward to today and I have the privilege of sitting down with, I really would, I want to call her brilliant and insightful. She's also a licensed marriage and family therapist. Her name is Guyana Aramion and she is not only a therapist but a new mom as well. And my kids are grown up now. It is wild to say 19, 21, 23, and 25. And it has been a fantastic, wonderful ride. And now just watching them grow into adults is a phenomenal experience.
But diving into this conversation, I felt like I had been thrown into the deep end of the modern parenting pool because there is so much information available now. And I often find myself joking about it, and I really had never sat long enough to really understand what that must be like for a new parent. And I found myself even wondering, I don't even know the right questions to ask.
So I honestly turned to what I think is becoming one of my better friends now, ChatGPT, because it does listen, especially if I ask it to ask me questions. I was looking to chat GPT even just for questions to ask because I wasn't even quite sure what to ask somebody, about parenting in the right now.
And I felt like this was an incredible learning experience. Seriously, she was so open about the rollercoaster ride of being a new mom in today's digitized world and how crucial this was, the preparation, that that is the key. Preparation, open conversation, even managing the postpartum emotions. And I would actually say one of the most heart touching moments was our discussion on postpartum depression and the reality of a concept called postpartum rage.
And I just I feel like every new mom or those who may someday embrace motherhood or if you are currently facing or have faced postpartum depression at any time. And let me just stay on this. Quite frankly, anybody who has had a child may someday have children, is a parent, may someday be a parent, a grandparent.
Basically, I feel like everybody needs to hear her perspective because it's a topic that really does need a whole lot of attention and compassion because it hit me with that postpartum specifically what she was saying because here are these brain spanking new moms and they're absolutely the last people who need to hear.
That you're fine, don't worry about it, you'll get over it or all the war stories of others because here is somebody that just carried a tiny human being around with them And all of a sudden that human is in the world and that human is dependent upon that mom and the mom really has no idea of what she doesn't even know that she doesn't know, or what's going to happen next.
So I just felt so deeply when she talked about trying to navigate all of your own thoughts and feelings and those of others and comparing to social media. And we also took a real quick deep dive into the mixed bag of technologies impact on kids. And I think that that was just fascinating and how you can make technology good, not all technology bad, technology good.
So let's get to that interview. And then if you have questions after listening to this episode, I would love for you to send them to contact at TonyOverbay.com and she and I will get back on and we will do another episode and answer any and all questions. So let's get to the interview. Music. Guyana, welcome to the virtual couch. Hi. Thanks for having me. Yeah. I love it. And I have to tell you, so I get a lot of requests of people that want to come on the show and I, and I can't lie.
I look at this point and say, I just, I want to bring on people that I, I'm very curious about what they do. And so you're a fellow licensed marriage and family therapist. So maybe I got a little bias there. And then of your background, I would love to hear you talk about that, but there's three things that you have in your specialty, which is pregnancy, postpartum and parenthood.
And I realized I don't really know enough about, and I've been a therapist for a long time, but the pregnancy and postpartum, and then my youngest kid is 19. So I realized, man, maybe I know. So I think that I probably don't know what I don't know about. Working with young couples and new parents. And so, are you okay to drive then from here? Tell me about yourself and I would love to talk about any and all of those topics. Well, first of all, I bet you know way more than me.
You're very kind. Because I do think a lot of this parenthood stuff is you have to experience it. Like, you really have to be in it. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I see clients from my office in Sherman Oaks, as well as virtually in California. I always liked working with young women and relationships. I've always been passionate about couples therapy. But when I became a mom, there was so much that I didn't know about.
There was so much that nobody told me about, and even working as a therapist, it was just a level I haven't unlocked yet. And so after going through my own journey, I realized how much isn't talked about and I wanted to get trained in perinatal mental health and start helping moms. And as well as couples who are either getting ready for parenthood or are in it and are completely lost and need guidance.
And so I have a huge passion in, when I use the word pregnancy in my practice, specializing in pregnancy, meaning the work starts way before you bring the child into this world. I would even say before pregnancy, right? Like there's so much, I truly believe that the prep work, it doesn't take away from the stress, it doesn't take away the issues, but it at least makes us more aware.
And so that's where my passion comes from. Well, and Gayet, I like what you're saying too about, and I know this, sometimes I feel like as a therapist, but I think probably as a human, you know, but I like what you're saying of, I always say we don't know what we don't know. And so even if we're trying to communicate something to somebody that hasn't experienced it, they don't even really understand
what we're trying to communicate. So I love what you're saying is until you became a mom and there we go. I've never been a mom. I know the dad side of things. So yeah, did that just give you a whole different view or appreciation of motherhood? Absolutely. I mean, I did struggle in the
beginning. I experienced depressive symptoms and I was just completely lost. I mean, all the things that and by the way as I talk to so many moms every time I talk to a mom I hear a new story I hear a new birth story there's there's just it's impossible to cover all grounds but yeah but I do believe that we need to at least start talking about what we can prepare for because a lot of things are out of our control and also you know I just wish somebody told me that I was a good
the things that I didn't know about. And so I try not to scare my, especially my expecting clients or couples. I always say, I'm not trying to scare you, but I am trying to educate you. I am trying to get you to think about these things before they actually happen. So when they happen. Hopefully you remember this moment or something in your brain says, I remember talking in therapy about this. And forgive one quick ADHD moment, because I want to get back to what you're
talking about there. But when I was looking, I was looking through your Instagram account, and I really like the whole flow of it. It looks really nice. And I like that you have a lot of the things that say, you know, instead of this, say this. And I love that some of the things like to say to a pregnant mom or a new mom, because my wife and I have often said, when we see somebody pregnant, we want to say, man, what a joy. How exciting, instead of the people that typically
say, oh boy, good luck. I mean, do you find that? Yeah. Absolutely, and it's really hard specializing in this and talking about it Especially on a platform like Instagram because I think a lot of times people can't take it that way. I know my my my close friends are like you're always complaining about motherhood. I'm like, that's, Definitely not what I'm trying to do but I do want to normalize the complaining because yeah, actually there is a lot of pressure of enjoying of
of it being blissful and amazing. And yes, it is, but also it's really difficult. It's the hardest job in the world. I'm acting very dramatic with this next, I would say full transparency, but I used to write a humor column in a newspaper. And when we had our first child, that was everything I wrote about. And I thought I was being hilarious, but I'm airing out my wife's dirty laundry,
you know, heartburn. And now she threw up a shake and now I'm bummed because no more Oreo shakes or so, but then I don't think I had the empathy for what she was going through or what do you remember about that time and what were some of those things that were just, so difficult? I mean, I was pregnant during the pandemic, like 2020, like right in the thick of it.
So I think that added a whole other layer of stress and anxiety. And I remember there was a point where there was a thought that my husband might not be able to be in the
delivery room. Oh, oh, yeah. And thankfully, he was able to but there was just a lot of stress that I definitely, at no point was like this is the greatest feeling in the world. Because just life wise, environmentally and things that were happening in the world is a really strange time. And in a way it was nice because we did get to spend some time together like at home and alone and we got to cherish those moments and to really focus on us and I think that's a huge
part in preparing for parenthood is, Making sure that your foundation in the relationship is strong Because it will rock your world. You know and I thought well and I thought like my husband and I were like on this good path. We're strong We've got this and then our baby was born and that first few months. I remember just we would be living obviously We're together. We're doing things we're a team.
But it was like we were just passing by each other Like total strangers. And so we had to have like a few conversations where we brought each other back to, we're in this together. Remember, I love you, you love me. And so it's just such hard work that I do think it really starts with your own inner work, like healing your own inner wounds. And since you have a, you said 19 year old, you've gone through all the stages, right? And you're still going going through those stages.
And so I think like each stage of parenthood brings out the inner child in you that hasn't been healed probably. Really does. Right? Yeah, I have a 19, 21, 23, and 25. And I have to tell you, even that alone is, I know when it was a, it's girl, girl, girl, boy. And I was grateful to, I started my therapy career when my oldest was nine. And I feel like, man, I'm so grateful for that because- Wait, so you have four children?
Yeah, I do. Yeah, like leading this. Oh, okay. But what's funny though, and here's why I love therapists, they'll get therapists, the therapist, let me go lay on my couch and you can ask me some questions
now. But I, I, for some reason, and I'm sure it's my own childhood things, but I, I wanted nothing better than to be the world's greatest dad, but then not real that that could also be the world's greatest pushover or the world's greatest, you know, enabler or the world's greatest codependent and meshed father or, and so I love what you're saying about every step of the way. I was on this personal journey of, oh man, I cannot say no. I can't. I mean,
this is, what is this all about? You know, those, those sorts of things. Absolutely. I mean, I, my son is three now and, you know, like newborn stage brought
out different things. And now that he's like literally an adult, he's like this morning, he said to me, we were driving to school and he said, mama, when I cry, you get sad because he cries at drop-off we just restarted school yeah and I was like okay like you're talking about your feelings that's it's such a it's crazy to hear their thoughts and, Being a modern day parent is also very difficult because and being a therapist while being a parent,
I think adds a whole nother layer because I'm like, yeah. I don't want you to think that when you cry I feel sad I want you to be able to cry and for that to be normal, right? But at the same time like you're going to school you should have fun and I don't want to see you cry So it's this like it's that part in this stage is so difficult of like trying to train this three-year-old to have feelings, to normalize them, and also manage your own at the same time.
Yeah. And so it's so awesome that you're like way ahead of the game and you're like, it's epic. Oh, way ahead by time. But I mean, I would love to even get your take on something. I know maybe this is going a little bit out in the weeds, but I've been saying a lot lately. So I do a lot of couples therapy and I saw you're an emotionally focused couples therapist as well. And I've been doing that for a long time. And so I just feel like we're barely starting to understand
what a secure attachment looks like. And being able to have a kid be able to express themselves and not make it about the parent. And I don't think I've ever realized, I feel like each one of my kids, I got a little better at that to the point where then my youngest, it's, this concept where he doesn't feel that I don't think the need to manage my emotions or anxiety. And so then it's wild to watch the competence. But what about your first? I'm curious.
Oh, and she's the one that will be editing this podcast. So she's amazing. Everything about her is perfect. But it really is that the birth order, which I actually did an episode a couple of years ago, and it was going to be a little bit of a throwaway episode. So I really quick called my kids wherever they were. And I said, Hey, this is funny, but here's what birth order says about the oldest. I mean, this isn't the case, right? And I
think then she's in tears saying, no, that's exactly it. And then the next one down and And then they, it was so, it was so wild. But yeah, my oldest is the, she just, she got so much of our focus and attention and I feel like she's so easy and she was perfect. Right. And then you see the second one is different. And it's so wild. It's so wild. Yeah.
And it's like, yeah. But that secure attachment, I had a client that was seeing me about some grief, which I thought, so we weren't even talking about this, but she was then on a date with somebody and she is a computer programmer. And she said that the person said, Oh man, I felt like I feel like that's more of a guy job. And I'm not really sure how comfortable I am with that. And she just said, Oh, you would love this. And she said, I didn't understand why.
I don't understand why he's even asking me that. Like that. I didn't say, what do you think? And I thought, Oh, there's what that secure attachment looks like. Because she grew up just feeling like, Oh, I can be whatever I want to be. And I can feel and think the way I do. So now here's somebody that's starting to say, Yeah, I don't know how I feel about that. And she's saying, Oh, that's a you issue. But I could see somebody that had had to manage their parents' emotions in essence, where
all of a sudden they're going to say, Oh yeah, I know. Sometimes it's weird and play small. And so there's that part where when I look at your opportunity, I just want to say, Oh, not that I want to go through it all again. But that secure attachment piece, I think we're just now starting to talk about. Do you see that concept?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that being a modern day parent is a blessing and a curse because blessing, we have information available at our fingertips, Chris, because we have information available at our fingertips. Right? Like, there's too much information and it just... I can't imagine.
Everybody I mean it overwhelms me, you know And it's hard because you're also in the field and so, you know the things, you know Because of your field and all these Instagrams and they share information that's helpful, But sometimes people don't even investigate to see who's sharing the information, right? Yes. I. Did sleep training with my son and I I really believed in it and all of these things and I still believe in it
Thank God. Yeah, he sleeps as well because of it, But then there are these videos that say you are ruining your child and they will become anxious avoidant and the security Yeah, it will be ruined and I'm just like oh great that I'm like even I I love your honesty here Yeah, it's so funny when you're saying this all sudden I just had panic if somebody's coming in to me asking me about it because I like to think I've been doing this for almost
20 years. I love my job like nobody's business and but I don't know those things and when I send somebody out to to find out that information. I had no idea because I did the sleep training as well. And then all of a sudden now I feel like, Ooh, I don't know if I can admit that. Right, right. But again, with each piece of information, it's not so extreme, right? Yes, we did gentle, the crying out method of checking in, making sure he's okay. But during the
day he got so much love. And I'd like to think he has secure attachment right now, although he's struggling at school and leaving me, but that's because I'm with him all the time. So I do think you can't take every piece of information as a fact. You have to do your own research and most importantly, you have to do what works for your family. I knew that getting sleep for all of us is like key to success. That's an important value in our life.
If people can, there are people who can survive off a few hours of sleep and they function. Perfectly. I can't do that. So figuring out what works for your family, not just because the internet says so, doing your own research and doing what feels right for you, I think that's very important. That's I love that because I have been kicking around this idea of everything is your individualized
treatment plan because there is so much information. And I love what you're saying because if somebody's just saying, well, I read this and I did it and it didn't work, it's passing that responsibility to the thing. I mean, what was I supposed to do? The internet said. And I don't know if you see this, I find that it can be really difficult for people to, take ownership or accountability of things. And I love seeing somebody recognize that,
said, Hey, we're all just trying our best. So acceptance that happened. Yeah. And I always tell my clients, my kid might also need therapy one day. And that's totally okay. Like I'm doing my best. I'm trying this gentle parenting thing because I want to break the generational cycle. And I want to do all these things. But, sometimes, yeah, I get upset, you know, and I and I raise my voice louder than I'd like to. And then we repair and we do
Yeah, the repairing stuff. And it's just like, we're human, even therapists are human. And we don't know it all. We're just doing the best that we can with the information that we have. And I want to say that our parents also did their best with the information they had. And they didn't have the information.
No, and they didn't. And then so it's funny, I hit publish on an episode today on the podcast that really trying to make more sense about differentiation and talking about how literally everything becomes this opportunity for us to see how we react and what do we do with it? What does it bring up for us? And trying to spin it like, what a joy. Everything becomes
a pop quiz in your own brain. And why did I react this way? And so I do think that can help a lot even when somebody is frustrated about their parenting or being a kid. I'll tell you though, so tell me your thoughts on, I don't know anything about, I hear about things like the intuitive eating or, do you have thoughts on that? Like intuitive eating for kids? Yeah, yeah. There's the stuff where I don't know the sleep thing you've made me feel better.
And then the eating thing. Well, you tell me how are they now as kids, as adults? They're, they're, they're amazing. And that was, yeah. And what was funny is that's such a great question because when I would find myself going, Oh my gosh, I do the right thing. I mean, at that point, I think my youngest was probably 12 and they, they really all
have slept really well. And then, and then by doing that, right. And by, and the thing that I thought was so cool about it was at night, we would always have our time where the kids are in bed and we're upstairs and TV and eating snacks and rubbing each other's feet. Honestly, that piece is worth everything because, you know, I always say, and I'll get back to the eating question, but I always say... When your kids either go to college or move out or get married or whatever, move out.
It's going to be you and your partner left. It's going to be you and your husband left. You want to make sure that relationship is still there. And oftentimes, especially moms, but also dads, of course, pour their hearts into their kids and neglect each other because that's not enough to give to everybody. And then you end up resenting your partner, and then you end up not talking to your partner. And then, so for me, like that piece, my son sleeps at seven right now.
I think he's trying to push it to 7.30. And once we put him to sleep, we have our dinner. We have dinner separately because like, that's our thing. Although, I know eventually we need to all have dinner together, but I'm holding onto that. And we watch a show together. And that time is like our reconnecting time. Yeah, it's important. And it's so important. It is. It really is.
And I love what you're saying too because you as a couples therapist, I know probably see this too, where people then they do get caught up in, we've got kids and we have jobs and we have lives and we'll get to it later. We'll get to the relationship later. And that implicit memory or what it feels like to be you based off of this slow residue of lived experience that over the years, then that we don't even know each other is and then all of a sudden we're here later.
And the negative cycles get created, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To go back to your question about the eating, so, I mean, from what we did was like a combinate, there's baby lead weaning, these things. I don't even know what any of these things are. Oh my God. I would like, I would have these conversations with my mom. She'd be like, what do you mean? Basically instead of purees kids now are introduced to all foods from like age six months and,
Okay, that's the thing. Yeah, I'm immediately go wait, but they'll choke right?
Right. I mean, of course like this is where the research matters is look into CPR Look into knowing what you're versus gagging means and that really helped us prepare and we took it slow We did some purees and then we started just with like offering like basically sweet potato would be cut in sticks and you just hand it over and he would like chew a little bit and it's like soft you know cooked yeah and yeah I mean I'd like to think that it made him to be a good eater but here's the
thing with all these things and I'm learning and I'm only at age three I'm, learning that you can do all the things but things are still gonna go wrong. Right, like yeah, you're you might still have a picky eater. You might still have a kid. Oh, yeah at night, You might have other things anxiety show up, other stuff I mean there is no recipe for a perfect child and I think this modern parenthood and I I'm guilty of it too sometimes I'm so Caught up and trying to do things the right way.
And it just it it takes away from like no life can still happen Right? And I think a lot of moms that I work with also struggle with that. And so that's, why I see my own therapist to make sure I do my own work. I love it. Yeah, I know. That's so good. And I like what you're saying, because if I think back through, you know, our kids all had things that happened. A kid burns their hand on a pan or a kid, they fall out of their bed, whatever it is. And then you're going to feel
like a bad parent, but things just happen. They really do. I want to make the joke. So I'm sure your son already has a cell phone. I mean, he's three, right? So I mean, I guess those are the things that I realize when I do parenting episodes. I just talk about how
I'm that old dude who never grew up with a phone and now a kid does. So those are those things I guess that, yeah, maybe do you prepare for how one interacts with technology or does he already have, is he able to figure out things or that sort of thing? So again, me being in the field and just researching probably more than necessary, I, and our, with our pediatrician's recommendation, we stayed away from screen time until he was two, which was pretty difficult.
And then as he turned two, I just moderately introduced it. Now that he's in school, I try to keep it to just weekends, but... He was sick for five days. Okay, and the tv was on like all five days So I I tried to for me that's a balance because when he comes home from school, We get home at four. He sleeps at seven. There's no point in the tv being on right?
Like yeah, if I find it necessary meaning like he won't let me cook dinner Or he won't like let go of me and i'm getting stressed and then that's gonna lead to yelling. Yes That's a good moment to cut yourself some slack and turn the screen time on. Yeah, so I've been very intentional about it I think that again going back to whatever works for your family And also I try to be flexible in when I have nothing to give yes The screen time will be turned on TV will be on.
Louie will be on Daniel Those are the shows. And so, you know, I really think it's whatever works for you and do your research. I love what you're saying because it's funny how much credit we get, I think as therapists. And so even just by you saying this is going to help people just feel like it's okay. It's okay. They need that, that validation, which I'm grateful, but I think maybe it sounds like that message is, Hey, just kind of do and yeah, I do want to emphasize on, you know,
interesting that you get critiqued whether the TV's on too much or whether you don't turn the TV on. Like oftentimes I might say, oh we stay away from screen time and I still feel judgment like really? Like you don't? And then if someone says you put too much TV on, others might be like really you put too much? Like I just think it's whatever works for your family. If you turn the TV
on because you need to, great. Like your child will be fine regardless. And I just I just want to emphasize that because I never want anyone to hear that and say like oh no Like, I've had the screen time on way too long. Am I a bad parent? Absolutely not. Yeah, I've heard Bluey is amazing, by the way, and I'm not even joking. I mean, somebody, it was a month or two ago. They said, No, you I think you would like to watch it just as an adult. Yeah, it's the messaging is honestly pretty good.
You know, and with the screen time with modern day shows, there's a lot of stimulating shows that are on. And so for me, that was very important to stay away from. Like when I'm seeing it next to him, I'm like, I'm getting over simulated. It's like a lot of sounds and a lot of like images and so for me that was very important to find something That's like not as stimulating and just calm and I love looking up old cartoons Like there's a little bear and it's just like so.
So mellow and like has important messages and I just think like for me that was important to as well, Because there's too much out there right now and it's not I don't think it's healthy. I don't know I'm biased in that aspect for sure. Oh, okay. No, I love the way you're saying because you're right. There's going to be criticism either way. So finding out what works for you is so, so good. And then talk to me about,
maybe tell me what I don't know that I don't know about postpartum. And, and a large percentage of my audience are female and young and having kids. And, and so I, you know, I know how to normalize it and, and give tools, but, but talk about that. I know, I don't know a lot about postpartum. Yeah, so I think a lot of what people kind of miss or think it's normal, it's the hormonal
changes that happen after you give birth. And in the first few weeks, a lot of the things are categorized as normal because your hormones are kind of trying to fluctuate back to normalcy. Although if you are breastfeeding, it's a little bit different too with the hormones. But in the the first few weeks you might be crying uncontrollably, you might feel anxious and rage feelings and a lot of that is considered just normal because that's
what's happening within your body. Then when it leads to like closer to a month, and you're still having those feelings. That's when it's really important to either talk to your provider, ideally in my world, you already have a therapist, like you need to have your village before the baby's here.
And I, you know, I talk about like having a lactation consultant you already are speaking with, if, you know, financially it's possible having some help if you don't have family around, whether it's a, you know, there's doulas now that come and help you and do all these things and night nurses, I mean, the resources are endless. The lactation consultants are now covered by insurance, like there's a lot out there.
So ideally having a village in place is important because when you're feeling these things, when you're struggling, you want to have a person to reach out to that can direct you in the right direction, guide you in the right direction. So, you know, for example, I didn't know this and I was experiencing it. I remember very clearly I was holding my baby and that he was very fussy.
And I remember getting this rage-like feeling. And by the way, being a therapist and just in general, my nature has always been, although I do have an anxious brain, I'm more calm, meaning like I don't freak out, I don't get angry in a very heightened way. Like I'm usually very just like, okay, like I'll figure this out. So in that moment, my baby's crying and all of a sudden I feel this internal. Like bubbling up of anger and rage and I'm feeling like I can't hold him.
So I call my husband and he takes my baby and I'm like, I don't know what's wrong with me. Like, I don't know what I feel this way. It feels like I'm in it right now, I'm talking about it. And then I had my therapist like on a weekly appointment and I remember talking to her and she was like, yeah, that's absolutely normal. It's called postpartum rage and we just have to keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't keep happening, you know, and have a plan in place.
Like when you start feeling that, let your husband know to take over and you just walk away and use like breathing techniques, and ground yourself. So that was something I didn't know about. And I have a lot of new moms that come in and are like, what's wrong with me? Nobody ever told me, like, does that mean I don't love my baby? Does that mean something is wrong with me? Am I crazy? Like all these feelings come up because nobody has told them, Hey, by the way, this might happen.
It's going to feel out of control, but you will be okay. You just have to have a plan in place. And then the uncontrollable crying, right? I remembered my husband would be like, what's going on? Are you okay? And I'd be like, I don't know why I'm crying. It's wild. It's really a rollercoaster. It's so nice for you to talk about. I mean, that part, the rage, I didn't even know that it had that name, postpartum rage.
And I do, I talk about that concept of inappropriate thought syndrome, where we all have these thoughts. Yeah. do and just because you have them doesn't mean you're going to do them. And then the whole thought suppression doesn't, isn't helpful, you know, don't think these things. And so I love knowing that because I will hear that often where a mom will just think that she's the only person that's ever felt that way. Are there percentages of people that, that show those signs of, uh, past that?
There are factors of course, that can increase chances of postpartum anxiety or depression happening. and that's if you've had anxiety and depression before. There's family history, environmental factors, of course, if there's trauma at birth, that can impact it. So there are a lot of factors that can indicate that this might come up. And that's why the work before matters so much. Working on your anxiety before, having a therapist in place, to know what the tools are even, right?
To use in place. So intrusive thoughts actually, again, very normal. I remember having it the first month, like I would be holding him and then I would be like, what if I drop him right now? What if that happens? I say it's normal until it keeps you from holding your baby until it keeps you from handing your baby over to someone because you're afraid they're gonna drop your baby or hurt your baby. Until it impacts your daily functioning Otherwise, yes those intrusive thoughts. I mean sometimes,
Everybody has intrusive thoughts, right? They just come in. Yeah. Yeah, we don't hang on to it We don't let it take the driver's seat. We have the thought and we're like, oh, that's a strange thought and then we might let go Yeah, but when you're experiencing postpartum anxiety the thought comes in and then it literally keeps you from either being with your baby or having others help you out and it just
can really severely impact a mother's well-being for sure. Okay and I like what you're saying about setting the table beforehand and get a therapist if you don't because in those moments I worry that if somebody's already getting into that almost like that amygdala hijack state and they they're in that fight flight freeze you know fawn and will they not know what to do then and not reach out and so I like what you're saying about setting up the game plan
ahead of time. And just think of like the shame and the judgment moms might feel if no one has normalized this and no one talked about it. I was so open to talk about it with my best friends who don't have kids yet and you know they I think I scared them a little bit but I just want them to know because I wish a part of me was. Like I remember someone told me about this like I remember this is normal this this is just a part of it, it will pass or you need to reach out.
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And tell me if you experienced this. I mean, when your son was first year, one of the things I look back on, I think was so fascinating was that all the comparisons we did of if somebody's kid was walking at eight months and ours wasn't walking or that one kid was this big and ours wasn't. And I remember the stress we felt there. And one of our kids was still not walking, I think, in a year.
And there was a pediatrician that I loved that said, I think you can count on her walking for her high school graduation. So I would just not worry. And I just remember an idea. I laughed about it. I thought, that's a fair point. And guess what? She can walk today. So there we go. So did you find those or do you run into that where people just get into that comparisons? Again, with social media now, those milestones, the checklist of milestones.
You know, of course, pediatricians talk about it too. I always say, yes, be aware of them, but again, don't let the anxiety take the driver's seat. There's so many things like, you know, early intervention can take place if we're aware of it. Like, don't, don't just ignore them, but don't let the anxiety take the driver's seat because it can become super unhealthy. Then you're comparing your child to other kids, which is never good, not healthy, anyone,
Especially yourself and that every child takes their own time every child. Yes differently, right? Then and it's I just I just think this modern parenthood is really difficult with social media in place, absolutely. And I think you're so spot on. And that's the thing I didn't grow up with. Can you share what that was like? What was it compared to? I know. I feel like I want to jokingly say, you know, we had these things called books,
and they were fascinating. But it really was the what to expect when you're expecting, or the Ferber cried out book, or the Dr. Spock with all the questions. And it's so interesting. I mean, I sound like, you know, when we would get in our horse and buggy, I feel like that's what it feels like now, but it really was. Sometimes I do almost think that that was maybe a little more simple, because we had some family in town.
My wife would reach out to her sister because she had kids ahead of us, and your church community, your family, and you'd compare notes. I do feel like that could almost be overwhelming, because if you're looking either for confirmation or validation, or if you're just prone to go to the negative, and then all you see are the things that you're not doing correctly, then I can't imagine what that would feel like to just be stuck in this loop of just seeing more of that.
And then I'm thinking on the fly right now, the way algorithms work is all of a sudden, are you now getting presented with more and more of the same? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. say, I would say the anxiety of moms in the postpartum period is very heightened, very. Heightened by commentaries, comparison, if they're doing it the right way with all of
this information. I mean, it's very difficult. And I used to share a lot about the way I did things, but I kind of stopped because I noticed that that can bring up a lot in people and and also to protect myself from the commentaries right it's like yeah we're just we're just trying our best like nobody right I I'm the first to say I am NOT going to get this right I'm going to mess up I mess up every day It takes a lot to do this, and nobody has it figured out.
Yeah. No. Okay. And I want to make sure we covered anything that you thought about as well, because this is I'm, I'm absolutely loving this. And I hope that you will, maybe I could have you on regularly to kind of check in. This is like, this was a really good conversation. Yeah. Okay. No, same. So, so I'll float one out there that we can just keep an eye on. So I do a handful
of parenting podcasts. And when I do, I talk about this, I, you know, I don't go into too too much detail, but I had an opportunity to consult at a very large company that was talking about their losing their new hires under the age of 25 and at a very rapid rate. So let's just say hypothetically, if the people used to stay in the company five years, now they're staying a year. And so I happened to be brought in from a therapist or psychologist
standpoint to just sit in. And they had this data that was so phenomenal. And it basically said. So, actually, I've been a therapist about 18 years. Before that, I did 10 years in software, computer software. And that was such a long time ago that every two years, a hard drive doubled in size and a computer got twice as fast. And so, they showed that now that's happening every few weeks. So, they had this curve.
And then they overlapped that it was almost like the generations of kids matched that. Technology curve. And so, it's just going at this rapid rate. So, I could even look at my, at that time, I think it was my 20 year old, my 18, my 16 and my 14. And you could almost run right down the list. It was almost like, uh, I don't want to say Facebook, Instagram, Tik TOK, you know, or whatever. And so, and they, and they almost spoke a
different language with that, that technology curve. But, but then what it, what hit me was I started talking about when I was a kid and my dad would talk about records, you know, then I'm right here talking about CDs. So we're still kind of speaking the same language. And now I feel like if I tell my kids about CDs, that curve hits over here and they don't care. I mean, they're talking about streaming and everything at their fingertips.
And I realize now that when my dad would say, we used to do this, I was fairly engaged. And I think this is that part where if I say, we used to go outside, we used to read books, we didn't have phones, they don't care. And I don't even mean that in a bad way. I mean, it's like an acceptance of this is where we're at. So I realized, you know, with your son at three, but maybe the therapist in you, if start to see that vibe. And I think so it is a time for a parent to really...
And I think my generation is right in the middle of, we also didn't have that, but then we also grew up with it. I want to say I got a phone, I don't even know, but probably 10, 11 or something like that was when it was starting out to be a thing, right? And then all of those things. So I really do think we're the last generation, probably, who's there through that and now shifting into all this high-tech technology and all these things and.
I don't know. I mean, even with little kids, right, they say, have them play as much as possible, like even with taking them to preschool, like make sure it's a, I mean, I read more of this in like the psychology world of like, how much play is important for child development. And so even when my son is watching TV, to be honest, I don't care for it to be educational because he's going to learn, he's going to learn things. And he's like a fun thing to just zone out a little
little bit. Yeah, he learns things here and there. And so the focus for me is like, playing and just, and I want to say how hard it is us as parents right now not being like this, with our phone. Oh, man. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I read this thing one time that said, make sure a device is in between your child's view of you and your child. And I was like, Oh, okay.
I'm gonna put my phone. That's so good. Because I will have People talk about when their daughter, their son is little and they're playing mom. When mine did, they put jewelry on and they would take hold of the baby and now it's like they're on their phone. Are you right? Yeah. It's heartbreaking. It really is. And again, it's a blessing and a curse. There's so much good that comes from it. We're so lucky to just have a question and Google it and have the answer right there.
But it is, I think, a problem in how much we're using it. And so just being mindful of that and being the generation that, yes, we're slowly getting away from, like, we used CDs and cassettes and now everything's on the iCloud. I was thinking about this. I'm like, how is he going to watch home videos? Do I have to just like stream it on the TV? And I have like 50,000 pictures and videos, like it's a lot.
So you can charge him a monthly fee and have the streaming service and then there, because That's what it'll be used to, right? That is so, okay. So that alone, I think that with the way you put that, it was perfect because it makes me think that's even more of a reason why I think parents have to be willing to get outside of their comfort zone because they do maybe have to be more curious about the kid's experience.
But that is the blessing there is, I think that's part of what leads to that secure attachment because it was easy for my parents and me to make it more about my experience. And I thought I was relating, but really I'm making it about my experience. And now, you know, again, kind of lightheartedly saying my kids don't understand my experience at all. So I can't convince them that it was what it was because, but I can go step into their
world and then try to be right there with them. I think that maybe, yeah, yeah. Hey, this has been amazing and fun. And so, you know, I feel like, okay, a podcast idea, old, former parent and new parent, you. Answer all the questions. This was really nice. But I love that. And God, it makes me feel so much better that your sleep trained kids are just doing great. I know, right? Oh, yeah. No. And also, I really think I mean, you have four kids, you know, and they're,
nice. I mean, those that age group is just I think that you've probably done, a lot of work. And you probably know way more than I do, honestly.
Okay, you're really kind. And if I have to say, I will say that when I have felt so strong, so strongly about this, but by investing in your kids' time and stepping outside of your own ego and being curious and at any, you know, all throughout my kids growing up, it was my job to learn what they liked, you know, their music, what they were watching on YouTube, who the people that they liked were. And then I would notice that, okay, I want to tell them I don't like this,
but then they do. So that's a me issue. And I know that there's a balance there. But I have to tell you again, what is so crazy now is we have, I mean, our kids all go on dates with us with their significant others. And we go to movies together and we hang out together. And I never anticipated. I wanted that, but I didn't anticipate that that was a thing. That's not such a parent thing. And I don't know what is. If your kids want to hang out with you
and be with you. Sometimes I even think really like you guys just need money. I'll I mean I'll give you the money I guess but you know. Yeah, I think so yeah, and so anyway, I yeah, let's let's have you on again and talk about this
And where do people find you? I mean, I'll put the link I love your website and I your Israel put all that stuff in the show notes, But yeah, but where do people reach out or where they find you can find me on instagram at therapy with Guyana G-A-Y-A-N-E, or my website, therapywithgayaneh.com. Okay, and look forward to having you on again. Music. The distance don't explode allow the understanding.