50th Episode Special - Live at KCDC 2022

Hello and welcome to Season 6 of the Virtual Coffee podcast. We are live and in-person at Kansas City Developers Conference. This should be our 50th- 50th episode of the podcast. But we had some technical difficulties and-

This is the 49th.

This is the 49th. But we're gonna pretend like it's very special-

I mean --

-and that it is the 50th.

Sure. Yeah. Well, if we publish it-

Yeah.

-after, then it will --

So this is definitely the 50th episode of the Virtual Coffee podcast [laughs]. And --

Here with me today --

[Laughs] Here with me today is my cohost, Dan.

Wwwuddup, Bek? How's it going?

Hey, it's going.

Yeah?

It's going good. Done with my talk, and I'm very happy to --

She did great.

I -- it [crosstalk] wasn't my best [crosstalk] performance.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it was good.

No.

I saw it. You didn't-

It happened.

-you didn't see it.

It was okay.

You can't --

So people got up and left during my talk, and then I -- it was very thrown off.

I feel like they just said that --

And I said something that was funny and nobody laughed.

I laughed.

And then I was like, "Oh. I'm not really funny [chuckles]."

Yeah. Bekah did a great job at her talk. Todd, we-

I did an okay talk.

-another Virtual Coffee member, Todd, I saw his talk right before yours. That was also really good.

Yeah.

But Tom Cudd is-

Tom is --

-to- tomorrow, I think.

Tomorrow.

Who else?

Chris DeMars.

Chris is now, I think, actually [chuckles].

Yeah.

Sorry, Chris.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. This has been good. We got up and got to do in-person coffee this morning, which was a lot of fun. And now we're gonna be answering some of the questions that you all submitted. And I think-

Yeah!

-we'll do it soon.

Yeah! We were supposed to do this live. But ... there's no Wi-Fi here. That's good. So we're recording. We're gonna publish it.

Yes.

In a little bit.

Yeah. So --

Some time.

Alright.

Alright.

Ready to get started with some questions?

I guess so.

So- so we've got some anonymous questions. I've only viewed one of them and the others we have not viewed at all. So we'll see what those are.

Okay.

And we have some that are not anonymous and we'll go through those as well.

Okay. Sounds good.

The- the first question is an anonymous one. And it is,

Hmm. I try to go to sleep like 10-ish most days, you know?

Yeah, I feel like that's also what I go for. Last night, we said we would go to sleep at 11.

Well, you said that. I never promised anything.

Okay. Well, I said, "Dan, I'll meet you from 10 to 11"-

Mm-hmm.

-and then we stayed up later.

Yep. Well, we had catching up to do, and my plane got delayed to infinity. And so, I finally made it.

Yeah.

And Bekah --

And then somebody challenged my ability to weight lift. And ... then I- I had to take care of that.

Well, he wasn't challenging your ability. He was challenging, like, your form, which is, I think even more-

Yeah!

-ridiculous. He was like absurd.

He was like, "Is this -- how do you -- show me how you..." How dare you? First of all [chuckles] --

[Laughs] I just don't think he knew who he was talking to, you know?

No.

Yeah.

Yeah. Don't challenge my weight lift form. Don't mansplain my deadlift.

Especially not at 11.45 at night at a- at a- at a bar.

Yeah. Yeah. It all ended peacefully though. I am happy to report. I did --

Yep. She deadlifted that guy. And then, you know, threw him into the street? I don't know [laughs].

Uh-huh. Yep, exactly. That's exactly what I did. I did not. I was very kind to him. Maybe. I can't promise. Okay. Alright, alright. Let me -- let's go with the anonymous questions first.

Wait. Who? Wait. Was that first one anonymous?

That was an anonymous one.

It was in your notebook?

Yeah, because I wrote it down before, okay?

Oh, you looked and-

Cuz I was-

-wrote it down. Okay.

-afraid it was gonna disappear. I never used this anonymous app thing before. And so I wasn't sure. Like, I opened it. Now, is this like Snapchat and it goes away after 50 seconds or something? I'm not sure how Snapchat works.

Yeah. Technology. I have no idea.

All right. So I hope that these are all ... appropriate. Well, that one says Netflix and chill, so --

Well, hey.

That's --

Just --

There we go.

Nope.

Please give me pickup lines that always work [laughs].

Well, that's not a question. So --

That's a demand. We don't-

They failed- they failed the --

We don't negotiate.

I mean, just read the instructions, people. [Bekah chuckles] It's not hard. We were looking for questions, not demands.

All right. Here we go. What extra work goes into landing a full-time international remote role, as a first role out of webdev bootcamp, with no prior developer experience? That's a really good question. I feel like this is something that we talk a lot about at Virtual Coffee. Maybe not so much the landing an international remote role, because that's a little bit more challenging. Not all companies can work

Right. Yeah. And- and- and those points you're gonna have to start looking and see if the companies have, like, supported visa stuff and, you know, lawyers to help you, things like that. There's a lot of like ... laws and rules and things that can come into play, I think, with international stuff, right?

Yeah, for sure.

But if you set that- that part of it aside a little bit, right? What kind of stuff can we do, coming out of bootcamp to, like, land your first job?

Yeah. I was just talking to someone about this recently. She's gonna be learning how to code in a couple of months.

Okay.

She's a- a mom of a couple of kids. And I- I think that once you're getting close to applying for jobs, working with other people and building projects together is something that can really help you stand apart-

Yeah.

-because there's a lot of people coming out of bootcamps right now. But a lot of them have experience where they've just worked on their own stuff. They haven't worked collaboratively, they don't communicate aloud with other developers. And when you're going into those interviews, you're going to have to communicate aloud about code. And that can be — I know for me — that was a really hard learning curve. I was not good at speaking code words out loud.

Speaking code words out loud. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, that's a silly way to say that. But like, I think that --

So I told you I wasn't good at it.

I- I mean, I totally agree with that. I- I mean, I- I'm always a proponent of like building things, you know, as a way to learn. And I think, yeah, I think building something with other people is also very important ... skill to like -- start to -- it- it doesn't always like -- it isn't always taught, right? It's not always taught in a classroom. I- I know that, like, lots of bootcamps do have collaborative projects. It's part of their

Yeah.

-project or, you know, bootcamp, whatever -- a classroom situation. But yeah, like, learning -- that- that's like one of the -- especially if you're hiring a junior role like that, where you're gonna be interviewing -- where you're expecting to hire somebody ... at that level. Those sorts of skills are something they can set you as -- like, far apart from- from other people from -- in the same boat, right?

Yeah.

Even if it's a thing that's for bootcamp. Maybe lots of times -- well, I've never been to do bootcamp, so I- I don't know. But like, you would turn in the assignment. I don't know. Do you do like presentations, after you finish?

We did. So for each of our -- we had like a series of projects that we had to do. And so, after each one, we had to walk through the code. And then for the last one, they asked us questions. And we had to add on a feature depending on what the interviewer felt would work for the application that you created.

Okay.

So there was live coding that was involved in that.

Nice. That's cool.

Yeah. And I feel like you can get somebody who is experienced in the industry to do the same thing with you. So if you have-

Sure.

-a project that you're using as a portfolio project, then what you can do is say like, "Hey, would you mind walking through this with me? Suggest, like, what I can do?" Do a code review with somebody, just so you get an understanding of like whether or not your code is written well. I think that you'll always be able to improve on your code. But when you're doing it in isolation and you're often just trying to see, like, does this work-

Right.

-you know, there's more that goes into coding than does this work.

Yeah.

Is it- is it written well or efficiently?

Yeah. Oh, I- I think that's great. And- and I think, another path to practice that sort of thing is open source as well.

Yeah.

And another thing that we talk about a lot in Virtual Coffee, at -- in this podcast, is it's another great way to practice those skills and prac- you know, see what works and- and- and join other code bases. And like, that's another skill that is- is ... sometimes maybe a harder one to learn -- not harder one to learn, but maybe not an obvious one to learn.

Yeah.

It is like how to dig into an unfamiliar code base, right? And-

Yeah.

-there's like -- [chuckles] there's- there's some things that you can do to make it easier, but in general, it's very much just practice. It will, you know, like if you practice it, it will -- you'll get better at it. And so, there's a million -- billion projects [chuckles] out there on GitHub that all are looking for help. And ... you know. I don't know. Jump in.

Yeah.

I -- we have a lot of episodes where we've talked about, like, all- all the reasons why it's a good idea to do it. And like, also like, the ... things to do to- to get over some anxiety you might -- may have about- about doing that as a- as a junior developer. Like, just jump in or, [chuckles] you know, do some peer -- pull requests on just documentation or whatever, just to get your feet wet. Like, that kind of thing. There's like -- a lot of stuff like that. So --

Yeah. And I think, also, it's a pretty easy ask to say like, "Hey, I really wanna get started in open source. I'm a little nervous about this. Is there anybody out there that would be up for mentoring me through it if I'm struggling?"

Yeah.

And then that way, you know, you can pair up with someone, you can work on those communication skills, and then you don't have to feel nervous about what you're doing. You have that support.

Agreed. And ... absolutely agreed. And, like, join Virtual Coffee [chuckles], you know what I mean? It's -- there's a lot of people that are always down to help with that sort of thing. And it's good.

Yeah.

All right. Before we go on, I'm getting really nervous that I forgot to hit record or it didn't work. So I'm just gonna go look at it-

Yep. Go check it [laughs].

-really quick. Yeah. No, we're good.

We're good. We're good. We've been recording. Per- excellent.

We're good. Everything is okay.

Cuz I was gonna make you do the whole thing over.

Yeah, that would be rough.

Okay. So, let's see. Did we -- so your first role -- and- and along with landing your first role, I think always finding community, finding people, and remembering that, like, your network is not just the people you know. It's the network of the people you know. So-

Yeah.

-making connections that are not transactional, and like, "Hey, I want to know you so I can get a job," right? Like, get to know people and-

Yeah.

-be their friends, be kind, don't criticize their deadlift form, [Dan laughs] and then you- you'll have a better shot at finding a job.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Probably- probably just in general, not giving an -- you know, giving advice to people who didn't ask for it, you know? Especially people you don't know.

I mean, like, generally speaking, I like it when people give me advice. I know that that's like kind of controversial, cuz a lot of people are like-

Oh, yeah [chuckles].

-"Don't give me advice. I didn't ask for it." But I- I don't know. I like to hear what other people have to say. And I often ask for advice a lot. I guess that's another bit of advice is ask- ask for advice because not everybody's just gonna give it to you. Also, sometimes advice is bad. People get bad advice.

That's not true.

Like, also his deadlift stance [Dan chuckles] yesterday. I'll get over that in a couple of weeks.

Yeah, right?

I'm --

I'm personally shocked that the drunk guy at the bar last night didn't have perfect deadlift form [laughs].

All right. Let's go to the next one.

Okay. Next question.

I don't know what that says. And, what happened? Oh, no.

I- I don't know.

It might not let me answer. Wait a minute. I don't wanna do that. [Silence]

Well, do you know the answer?

No.

Screenshots.

[Laughs] Did you submit that question?

I- I did. I did. That was me. [All laugh] This is a good one, right?

Who was the last dude you texted?

Jesus Christ, people.

Let's see. Probably Dan. Probably you. You were the- the last one I texted.

Yes. I don't know. I mean ... are- are you asking me? Cuz I don't know-

I don't know.

I don't know who you texted.

I- I didn't --

You did text me recently.

I did recently text you. About this conference. Who was the last dude you texted?

Mm ... I dunno. My -- one of my friends? One of my friends just took his dog out in the canoe for the first time. And so he was sharing pictures of that. And I said, "That's cool."

Nice.

Yeah.

That was excellent. So- so there- there you have it. We did really well. Those anonymous questions were fantastic. Thank you all for doing such a good job of sending them [all laugh]. We do have a handful of non-anonymous questions. Un-anonymous -- unanimous question.

Unanimous?

Mm-hmm. I think that's the right word.

Un-anonymous, I think.

Un-anonymous. I wrote one of 'em down.

Oh.

So I wouldn't forget. Okay. This one comes from Meg.

Is this notebook from like 1920 or something?

Listen. I keep buying these notebooks. They sell them at T.J. Maxx in a pack of three. This one says the right stuff. I like these notebooks.

Look at the inside though. Show them the inside.

What's wrong with the inside?

It looks like it's, you know, paper from ... the civil war or something [laughs].

[Chuckles] Is that what civil war paper looked like?

I don't know. But, probably.

I think you're wrong. And a liar.

Oh, I and ... here we go.

All right. This one's from Meg. Is there anything you would've done differently when it comes to Virtual Coffee's setup, organization, time commitment, et cetera. You go first.

I mean, that's a really good question. But, like, it's hard to have an answer for it because everything that, like, has happened has been so organic, you know?

Yeah.

And you- you, like, you think about, like, all the things that we have going on right now, like, everything that's in play and- and, like, yeah. Like, I can think of a lot of things that could be better or, you know, right now, or whatever. But ... I think if we had started from scratch in, like -- we're like, "Let's try to build this community, but like start --," you know, I- I don't know. Who knows what we would've done. You know what I mean? And it probably, I don't know.

Yeah.

-like, I'd like to think it would've, but the- the -- one of the beauties of the- of the community -- of the Virtual Coffee community is- is the sort of organic, like, nature of how all that starting it. And of course, all that was, like, around you [chuckles]. But, like, it's -- and it's, like, one of the reasons why Virtual Coffee is sort of different and-

Yeah.

-successful. I've -- I feel it. As opposed, to, like ... I'm trying to think of an example, but, you know, I suppose there's people who are like, "I'm gonna start a community," or something. And sometimes they're cool, and sometimes they're not. But you never know what it's -- like, you never know what's gonna happen un- until it happens with- with, like, groups of people, you know?

Yeah.

So, I don't know ... I mean, I could think of, I don't know. I could think of like a lot of -- like little instant, like instances of times that like, "Okay, I wish I made a di-different decision there," you know? But that's- that's less like -- that's more just like I make mistakes, not- not so much like ... you know, tactical, like, planning stuff. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I dunno. What about you?

Well, I think it's nice because- because of like the authenticity and the organic evolution of Virtual Coffee, that we have more freedom to make mistakes almost, right?

Yeah.

Because we know that the people who are coming to Virtual Coffee are okay with that. Because they know that we're human beings, and we, like, we do get things wrong sometimes. I, for sure, have gotten things wrong on a number of things at-

Yeah.

-Virtual Coffee. And, you know, you- you try and get 'em right the next time, you learn your lesson-

Yeah.

-you apologize when you need to. And I- I think a lot about what I would do differently. But I actually think it's kind of a strength that we had no idea what we were doing in the beginning.

Yeah.

Because, you know, now that I'm community building professionally, I'm, like, diving into things like metrics, and planning, and a lot of different, like, processes and procedures that I wouldn't have considered before. And I think that sometimes it actually makes me less creative with-

Yeah.

-what the community will look like, because I see what everybody else is doing. And it feels like these are the things that you should be doing if you're building a community-

Right.

-because this is what the experts say. And I'm like -- sometimes I get caught up with -- in it, like thinking about Virtual Coffee. And I'm like-

Yeah.

-"No," you know, "This is -- that's not true to who we are as a community."

Right.

But I'm, like, trying to think too [sigh] [silence] what I would do differently. I- I think I would find more ways early on to allow people to support the efforts of Virtual Coffee, to provide more autonomy for members to do their own things. Like, I'm really enjoying seeing the coffee table groups-

Mm-hmm.

-grow, and the different things that we're doing. Ray is doing the Virtual Coffee speech club now.

Yeah.

And, like, I love that. That's one of my favorite things. But, like, finding more ways to empower people to do that. Like, honestly, I wish that I had more time in the day because I think that we have so many great people at Virtual Coffee that are willing to provide support for-

Yeah.

-a lot of different things. And finding ... more ways to empower them to do that is one of those things that I still wish that I could do better.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's ... that's a hard problem. And, you know, I- I know of -- both from my experience and from, like, talking to other people, it's very hard to find people that are willing to, like, put time and effort into something like a volunteer thing like that, you know? And I think that just goes ... to show how awesome Virtual Coffee is. That we have all these people that

Yeah.

Like, before we had anything around them. Like, we are building stuff to support them now because they existed already, you know? As opposed to, like, we had some idea for coffee table groups, and then we're trying to find people to- to do them or something like that, right? And that's, you know, it just goes back to the, you know, the organic

Yeah.

Also, it's not usually how my brain works that way anyway. I- I mean, [chuckles] the- the way that things have gone is what -- you know, is obviously, like, it's more how my brain works anyway, you know? Kind of like-

Same.

-go along with things and trying to make things better, but, I don't know. It's ... well, it is what it is. I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, I ... I'm, like, super proud of us for early on getting a lot of documentation in place because that-

Yes.

-has helped to provide a better space for people.

Yeah.

I- I would like- I would like to do a better job of onboarding new community members.

Yep.

And I feel like that- that from the beginning. So I feel like a lot of the, like, would you do differently is -- are still things that, like, I would like to do more of now.

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Especially now that we have new members coming in. It's so great to see new faces at Virtual Coffee again.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's been a- a really bright side of the last couple of weeks. But I just wanna make sure that everybody's taken care of.

Yep. Yeah, I agree. And that's like, you know, so there's, like, technology stuff that I- I just wanna change now. It's- it's not even- it's not even like, "Oh, I wish we had done this differently." It's just ... well, now we need it. Like, now we need things. Like, there's things we need, you know? So let's change them. The- the new member thing, especially. It's especially cuz it's built, like, originally around Slack [chuckles], you know?

Yeah.

And that's ... that sounds --

That, maybe, is something I would change.

I don't know. Yeah. I mean, like, maybe. But, like, it was really before Discord, like, took off- like, took off for people outside of gaming, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And ... I don't know. That -- there's any better option and it, like, created the community, honestly. Like, it -- like, you know what I mean? It's -- I mean, the Zooms and the- and the Slack, it's like, it's what was -- it was the whole thing for first ... however long. I don't know. I dunno. Whatever. However many months or whatever it was, you know? So- so yeah. Yeah. There's things that, like, I'd like to see improved and

Yeah. Let me ... okay. So the next question is, what's

Of, like, run- running a community?

Just of community. So you can take it as you- as you ... see fit.

I don't know, man. I -- like, alright. So, for me, part of -- as a member of communities is- is just like ... it- it takes, like, emotional energy for me to engage with things, engage with people, and do things or whatever. And so sometimes I find myself like just falling out of communities or- or just like not -- whatever. And it- it even happens in Virtual Coffee sometimes. I mean, you and I ... I mean, we talk all the time, like, doing management

Yeah.

-you know what I mean? Like, it's- it's one of those, like, "Catch-22" where my brain is, like, fooling me about it, you know?

Yeah.

But, like, overcoming that, that's -- that can be hard. And then another thing for me is, my memory's really bad, especially with, like, names and stuff, and, like -- a-and so, you know, remembering people that I met or like that I'm supposed to know or let- you know, I'll- I'll -- I sensibly do know, but have forgotten who they are or what their name is or, you know, that happens to me, like, a lot.

Yeah.

Harder in-person. Like, it's more- more embarrassing for me in-person. So it's -- that's my other-

Yeah.

-struggle. What about you?

Well ... I guess the- the thing that I never would've thought about, before this community, was last year when Mike passed away. That was, like, obviously a really hard experience. He was an active community member. Like, everybody loved him. But then, like, making decisions-

Yeah.

-about that-

Yep.

-and having to tell people over and over was --

Yeah?

I- I -- like, something that you can't ever be prepared for. And so, like, experiencing the losses of community members and with community members. And, like, trying to leave space for people to experience grief in different ways-

Yeah.

-is just -- I- I don't know. I felt like, I was stretched beyond my limits of human being. Like, I-

Yeah.

-went through -- and- and, you know, it was hard with Mike, but like there have been other losses in the communities, right? Like, there have been miscarriages, there have been jobs lost, there have been relationships that are no longer. And when people, like, confide in you, and talk to you about that, it's just ... one of those -- it is definitely the hardest-

Yeah.

-emotional labor that- that I have ever had to put in anywhere. It- [chuckles] it's like a "Catch-22" though, right? Like-

Mm-hmm.

-you have to experience ... like, the- the full humanness to really be close and supportive to the-

Yeah.

-the people around you. So like, would I love to not ever have to experience any of those things?

Sure.

Yeah. But I think it's the -- a key part of understanding the people in front of us to be there through it. So --

Yeah. No, I- I- I mean, I totally agree. And that's like, it was- it was incredibly hard. A- and ... but I just -- I was, like, while you were talking just now, I was just like, thinking of how ... thankful I am that, like, Virtual Coffee is- is what it is. And, like, it's a place where people can come to, like, share ... this- this horrible thing -- like, the heavy feelings or-

Yeah.

-you know? It's -- it obviously is hard. But I think, like, my -- I guess my point is just like ... that it's worth it. Like [laughs]-

Yeah.

-I guess it- it's my point. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, the -- like, it is like, it- it- it's ... yeah. It's that. It's- it's just -- it's hard, but like, it's also like -- it's what makes Virtual Coffee, like, what it is, you know? I mean, the -- that's- that's sort of, like, connection. The, you know, the- the intimate connection, right? Is- is -- I started noticing it even before ... maybe right around -- well, like during our, like, original Hacktoberfest time, you know? Like, when we all started like really doing that, but like,

Yeah.

There's like -- there's- there's good feelings coming ... both ways, and I -- from everybody in the community. And, like, I dunno. This -- it's good.

Yeah. I think when you can eg- share your losses openly like that, then you celebrate your wins-

Right.

-you know, just as strongly in the other direction. So it- it is definitely one of the hardest, but one of the most rewarding to be able to know that there are people out there that trust you to share that information that you know. That if you're going to be going through something hard, that there are gonna be people there too. And I know that my empathy and understanding of other people has definitely -- I feel like- like "The Grinch", right? Like [laughs]-

Yeah [laughs].

I was a little bit of "The Grinch" before Virtual Coffee [laughs].

[Inaudible] Two- two -- three- three sizes. It's --

Yeah.

No, that's a great call. And that's a good point. Like, I mean, I have learned so much just about like ... yeah. Expressing myself and talking to -- connecting with people and ... yeah. My -- I was gonna say, like, my- my, like, emotional literacy, I feel like has exploded over the last few

Yeah.

And it is because of Virtual Coffee -- or once Virtual Coffee started, but like, made more friends -- new friends in that time, in the last three years than I had in the last 10 years before that [chuckles], I think, you know? Like, put together. And like- and like good friends. Not-

Yeah.

-you know, not just like random Twitter followers or something, you know- you know what I mean? Like ... and- and, yeah. I mean, that's all- that's all Virtual Coffee, you know? It's- it's just like -- it's good stuff.

Yeah. And it's great. Like, we get to meet up some of us.

I know. Well, this is [inaudible] --

Which is really, really nice.

Yeah. This is the second time that Bekah and I have met in-person. Cuz -- and when- when did we meet? When did- when did we, like, start working together? It's 20 ... 19?

July of two thousand --

18?

18.

18?

I think.

Okay. Yeah. So --

Yeah.

Two times every ... four -- what year is it now?

22.

22? So it ... two times every three years s-see each other in-person?

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. And we're in Kansas City. So --

We're in Kansas City right now. Make sense [laughs].

We live like two hours from each other, like [laughs] ... but --

This is the only place that would take us really. So --

Yeah.

Yeah.

I guess that's understandable. All right. Let's see what other questions.

We got [inaudible] time over your head [??].

We still got-

Oh, we got.

-some time.

Twenty minutes-ish before the -- before hours up. I dunno.

Um ... oh, okay.

I suppose we should have said something on Slack about how we are going live.

I did.

Oh, good job.

Don't worry.

Did you do it on Twitter too?

I didn't on Twitter though.

Suck. Hey, I'm gonna --

Sorry. Can't cover all the spaces. Uh-oh. What did you do? Did it pause it?

I don't- I don't know if it did for that moment, but it is going again. So ... we're in good shape. Alright. The recording [inaudible] of technical issues. We've been recording for like half hour or so.

You need to sit -- be in -- closer to your mic. Cuz I can't hear you.

Has it -- that been true the whole time? Or just now, since I got up?

It was like, just since you got up.

Okay, good.

All right. Where are the questions?

I don't know.

There was another one. And --

Oh, Ayu had a question that was -- I know it was a trap.

It was a trap?

Yeah, for me.

It was a trap for you? Okay, wait. Let me --

I think it was on Twitter.

Twitter. Thanks, Barrett Blake, for saying the Virtual Coffee podcast is a must listen.

Yes. Thank you.

We love it.

[Chuckles] We loved it.

Um ... why can't I find it? Okay.

Yes. See?

Go ahead.

What? I didn't found it.

Well, you fired me, and --

See? Ayu's just -- [Bekah laughs] this is, like -- this is it. Every year, every time. Starts like that. I didn't fire you. Yeah. You heard it here, folks [chuckles].

Dan said, "I will no longer pay you to do work."

Oh, yes.

So you all are welcome to define that as you see fit.

I don't --

We should have them vote for their favorite Virtual Coffee host and see who wins.

That doesn't sound very fun for me [laughs].

[Laughs] I mean, you mi- you're probably a lot of people's favorites.

Hmm ... I doubt it. It'll probably be like, just one of our guests would win [chuckles].

One of our gue- Kirk. Kirk is gonna be the one that wins.

Yeah. It would gonna be Kirk! It would be -- he would get my vote, honestly.

Yeah. Yeah. I vote for Kirk too. Everybody vote for Kirk.

All right. It is decided. [Chuckles] K-kirk is favorite. Alright. I mean, sh-should we, like, finish the story if people haven't heard this?

[Laughs] I guess so. Okay. So, Dan and I work together.

So -- yes. And then the shutdown happened and all of my clients stopped giving me work. And so I had to stop giving Bekah work. And then something happened. I dunno.

Yeah. Well, the- the day that I went and picked up my kids' schoolwork, cuz they said, "Oh, you're going home -- they're going home for three weeks," which they never went back that year.

Yeah.

Dan was like, "Hey, wanna catch up?" [Laughs] And I was like, "Oh, no." And it was oh, no. So I -- when Dan hired me right outta bootcamp, I hadn't had -- we didn't do an interview. Like, we just had a conversation.

Yeah.

And so, I was now interviewing for the first time, really ever-

Yeah.

-with four kids at home that were trying to be doing school at home. And it was just miserable. Like, the interview process is soul-crushing. And I just found myself -- I was like crying all the time, every night. I'm like, "This is awful." And so, I finally like, remembered ... like, everything I had gone through in trauma. And I was like, "I know you shouldn't be alone and isolated in your feelings. Does anybody wanna meet up for a virtual coffee?"

Yeah, yeah.

-too intense. But then, we just kept going. And, like, people were like, "Hey, why don't you have a Slack?" And so, I think Brian, initially, is -- he was like, "Here's a Slack." I'm like [chuckles], "Okay." [Dan chuckles] And then he was like, "Let's do lunch and learns." Okay. Then we did a newsletter, and then I've always wanted a podcast. And Cameron, I think, was like, "When are we gonna do the podcast?" And you were like, "Let's do a podcast." So we just-

Yeah.

-kept going with it.

Yep.

And Dan- Dan did hire me back for a while.

Yeah.

So --

As soon as I was able to, I guess [??] [laughs].

[Giggles] He only fired me for a little bit.

Oh, my god. I didn't fire you. That's not the right word. You're using the word incorrectly. I feel like-

Oh. What is the definition?

I feel like, if you're gonna fire somebody, it has to be for, like, a reason. Like a -- it's -- laid off is maybe what -- other -- like, probably doesn't really apply to contractors, but like, that's closer to what it is, right? Laid off means the company has to stop, you know, can't pay you anymore.

However you wanna justify it in your head, Dan.

Oh, god. Whatever. [Bekah chuckles] You better watch or you're gonna get fired again, cuz --

You can't fire me [chuckles]. I don't work for you anymore.

I definitely can, and I will.

You can't fire me if I don't work for you.

You can't tell me -- don't tell me my truth, okay.

[All laugh] All right. You go ahead, and you try and fire me, and see how that goes. Are you- are you firing me as part of the pod- as your podcast cohost?

No. I don't think a lot of people would tune into the "Just Dan" podcast. Dan talks to himself podcast.

I would tune into Dan talks to himself podcast.

Yeah, but you'd just heckle me. So --

Yeah. I would probably heckle you.

Yeah.

Well, tomorrow, when I speak at PubConf, you're allowed to heckle me though.

Yes.

Please. Heckle. Me.

I ... yes, I will.

All right.

I -- are you glad or sad that I didn't say -- yell "Wuddup, Bek," at the beginning of your talk this morning? I- I thought about it.

[Laughs] I- I- I think I'm glad that you did not do that.

Okay. Alright. I made the right choice.

I was already super nervous.

Well, that's why --

And then I --

That's- that's why I didn't do it, you know? I didn't wanna --

Would've been very -- I'm not really sure how -- what would have happened.

Yeah. I- I just, like, well, I mean, I figured you would just break into a laughing thing where you couldn't stop laughing and which would've been entertaining for me, but probably not for you. So --

No.

I -- that's why -- I made the right choice.

And then I would've just hid in a hole.

I just wanted you to know, I-

I would've just like stood behind-

-I ... considered it.

-the screen and then --

I considered it and then chose not to, you know?

Thank you.

Yeah.

And thanks for being there.

Yeah. I feel like 10 years ago, me would've done it. And then -- I mean, and then realized it was a bad idea after, you know? But like- like ... wouldn't have put it together beforehand, you know? That that was a bad idea?

I feel like the -- my brothers definitely would have done that [chuckles].

That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

All right. We have more questions.

I'm learning. We do?

What does community mean to you? [laughs]

Community? I don't know.

I think community is a group- a group of people that have some shared sense of belonging.

Mm-hmm. That's true.

And there can be different degrees of that, right?

Yeah.

Like, you- you all might, like, to go hiking. And that can be a sense of community. Or it can be people that are ... you know, I love true crime podcasts. So -- and actually my favorite podcasters — true crime podcasters — live in Kansas City.

Whoa.

So, I like -- thought about trying to get them to come, like, "Can you come be part of our live podcast?" But I wasn't sure how we were gonna talk about murder and Virtual Coffee at the same time. Although I have some -- no. I'm not gonna take you down that tangent.

Oh, no.

Sorry [chuckles]. So, yeah. So, some sense of belonging. And then there's different degrees and ways of ... expressing that sense of belonging.

Yeah. I think that's great. Yeah. And the other word that I would use is connection, right? It is, like-

Yeah.

-belonging and connection. And maybe those -- maybe you can't feel belonging without connection. I don't know [chuckles]. But like, you know, the- the -- that's the other side of it is- is the -- is connecting with people, right? Like, okay. So, like, I'm a Guardians fan, you know? And ... I don't know. We were talking about this last night, which- which is why it's in my head. But like, you know, your regional sports team, lots of times, you're

Yeah.

-a ... whatever. You have the hat or whatever, you know?

Yeah. And when I was in the airport, there was somebody wearing WVU tennis shoes in front of me.

Yeah.

And, like, I graduated from WVU.

Yeah, yeah.

I taught there and it was like, "Oh," like, "That guy's my friend." [Chuckles] I don't know that guy.

Right. Right. Right. And you might connect, like, yeah. And that like creates a connect- you know? And it creates a connection. I mean, you were the only one. Cuz you didn't probably say --

Yeah. No. I would thought about saying, "Let's go, Mountaineers," but then I got a little embarrassed. So I didn't.

That's probably the right call. So [laughs] --

Yeah. Yeah.

My mom does stuff like that, you know? I would like -- the -- like, with- with the Ohio state people, you know?

Yeah!

It's not -- it's never fun for me anyway [Bekah laughs]. [Chuckles] But ... yeah, I mean that- that's it. Like, right. The belonging is a great -- like, I think that's a great -- I think that's like the- the- the real key, you know? And then, yeah. And then that sense of connection is a-also of --

I was getting off the escalator here, earlier.

Yeah.

And some guy was waving, and I thought he was waving at me. And then I, like, waved back wholehartedly at him [laughs], he was, like, was actually waving at the guy behind me.

Yeah.

Then I didn't feel like I belonged. I felt very embarrassed for myself [laughs].

You- you were not in his community of- of waving people.

I- I was not- not part of that.

I -- it happens to me like once a year [Bekah laughs] I'd say. It's really bad, you know? Like, just like that? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's a lot of people here. So, it's- it's easy to --

Yeah. I hope he forgets my face. Let's see here. Okay. Here's another question.

[Chuckles] I hope he forgets my face.

At in-person events, what are some techniques or tactics you use for starting a conversation with a stranger? I- I am, like, terrified of talking with strangers. And I'm on booth duty while I'm here, for work at DeepGram.

Yeah.

And I guess it almost makes it a little bit easier, cuz I'm like, "I'm deep- part of DeepGram. We're a speech to text API company." So at least, like, I can do the spiel. But sometimes I don't -- I told a woman I liked her glasses [chuckles].

What's wrong with that?

No. That's how I get to talk to people.

Oh, sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Give them a compliment.

Sure. Yeah, yeah. But I would say only compliment, yeah, clothes and- and stuff, right? Like --

Yeah. You have to be careful what you compliment.

Especially -- I mean, especially if you're not a wom- if you're not a woman.

Yeah. Don't be like --

It's just like, don't --

You have really nice eyes.

[Chuckles] No, yeah.

That will get creepy.

That's ... yeah. Yeah, no. I don't have any good strategies cuz I'm really bad at it [laughs] also. I'd say, one- one strategy --

You talk to people at the table -- lunch table.

Sure. Sort of.

Yeah.

I mean, they were talking to me [laughs]. Alright. What I was gonna say was, if you go with a friend, you know?

Yeah.

It's much easier to actually talk to other people if you ha- already have somebody that you're, like, with -- you do know, because, like, we sat -- Bekah and I sat next to each other at the lunch table and then, like, other people just sat down, you know? And we weren't ... like ... I don't know. And then they -- we just, like, started chat, you know? And- and that's cool. It's ... again, also hard for me [chuckles]. I'm not- I'm not good at it.

Yeah.

I -- they're -- here, at this conference, they're doing, like, a Bingo thing where they're trying to get you to go to all the speaker table -- or the sponsor booths, that you can see some of them is behind us. And -- so you have like this little card, and you get little stamps, you know, and if you get 'em all, you get entered in something. Raffle for ... I don't know what.

Yeah, I don't know.

But, anyway, so now I'm going to all these booths that I don't have any interest [chuckles] in going to and trying to, like, make conversations. Like, I feel bad just being, like, stamp my thing, okay, bye, you know? And so, I'm always like, "So, what do you guys do [laughs]?"

Yeah. Yeah, we got a lot of that in our booth.

I'm like- like --

I'm like, "It's okay. You don't have to talk to me if you don't want to."

Yeah. Well, one of the people was like, "Have you heard of us?" I'm like, "No, [inaudible]. I haven't." I --

That's awkward.

And like, also, I'm not looking for a job. And that's one of the, like, a lot of these people are here to hire. Which makes a lot of sense. But like ... I probably wouldn't -- I don't know if this is a common thing to, like, get your thing stamped at every booth thing. But like, I imagine that a lot of these booths are used to the people that come up are the people that are looking for jobs. Because that's the reason they're- they're here, you know?

Yeah.

And I'm like, "No, I don't." They're like, "Whoa, we have some positions available in front-end." And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm good," [laughs] you know? Like, I don't know what to say. I don't -- I'm like, I don't have the ... I dunno. I could feel like a lot of people are just good at ... saying things in ways that make sense to people [chuckles]? I dunno.

My dad, like, loves talking to strangers. I talked to a stranger in the airport and I texted him like, "Dad, you'll be so proud of me. This- this guy used to live in Pittsburgh, now he lives in Atlanta, and he's been there for 10 years, and I had that whole conversation all by myself."

That's impressive, yeah.

And he was like, "Isn't that amazing?" And I was like, "No, Dad. [Dan laughs] It's not. I don't wanna do that all the time." I mean, the guy was really nice, and- and I would've had of more conversation with him, but --

No, I- I didn't --

I think, like, getting involved too. Like, if you're a speaker, then people will talk to you? So, that's a good way to do it?

Yeah. I mean like, yeah. And that's -- I'd say, the other times that I've had fun at conferences, I've been with the speakers. Not because I was a speaker necessarily, but like, I just either knew the organizers or whatever.

Yeah.

And like -- or just, there- there was one event in Florida that I went to, where they just had their after party, whatever. And all -- of course, all the speakers were there, and I- I just kinda, like, tagged along, [chuckles], you know? And ended up at a smaller thing. And that's like, for me, I- I always -- I do much better in smaller, like, settings, you know? Like, smaller groups of people or whatever. And so ... yeah. I'd- I'd say ... to go back to the

Yeah.

My main strategy is bring- bring your friend.

Yeah. Yeah. It is really good. Last year, at KCDC, James Quick was here. And I just like, followed him around, like, everywhere. With --

Yeah. That's what I- that's what I told Bekah, I was gonna do to Bekah. Except that she's just sitting in this booth the whole time [chuckles]. And that's less fun.

Not the whole time.

No, not the whole time.

Some of the time I'm not.

Obviously right now-

And now I'm podcasting.

-you're sitting right here-

Yeah.

-which is cool.

I gotta go back to the booth after this though.

Right. Yes. Yep.

But then tomorrow, I'm free in the afternoon.

Yeah. What was that?

Yeah. So, I would say bringing your friend is nice. And it -- or it doesn't even have to be like a 'friend' friend. Just put it out there on Twitter or whatever, social media, like, "Hey, is anybody going? Want to meet up?"

Yeah. Yep. That's another good strategy as well. Yeah, I did the same thing-

Yeah.

-with Rizél. I was trying to get her to come find us as lunch. Cuz she was-

Yeah.

-she was at your talk, and I didn't know that. And I probably missed her, but anyway --

It- it is hard when you're by yourself. I- I mean-

Yeah. I --

-I've been to conferences that were terrible experiences. Because like, there one -- I can't remember which one it was. Within the last year. Like, I would go sit down at the lunch table, and people would just like [laughs] stand up and walk away. And then I'd just be sitting there by myself.

Yeah.

I'm like, "Oh ... all right. I'm just gonna continue to sit here-

Yeah.

-by myself."

Yeah, yeah. No. I -- when I'm -- when I- I've -- I think I've only gone to one, like, big conference by myself. And I just turned into like a ball person. Like, I honestly, like, put my headphones on, I'd read my book, like, or something, you know? Put my, like, op- open my computer. I- I'm not good at it. That's why it's nice to have a friend, you know?

The other thing would be, you can talk to speakers, you know?

Yeah.

So if you are there by yourself, then go up to the speaker and-

Yeah.

-talk or, like, what -- our- our badges say if we're speakers or- or not, and what company ... oh, mine doesn't say what company I'm with. Maybe cuz I'm a speaker. I'm not really sure. Does yours?

No.

No. Yours says attendee.

I'm an attendee --

Well, you can just go up to him and be like, "So, I see you're an attendee too." [laughs]

[Laughs] Yeah. That's the kind of thing that I imagine saying. And then, you know, realize it's a bad idea, and then, you know --

Jokes are a good way. Just go up to somebody random and tell them a joke-

I never remember jokes. [Inaudible].

-I think that's a good idea.

I -- my- my- father-in-law is the same way I think i-is your Dad but -- and he'll do the same thing. He'll do -- drop a joke or like, just random, you know, thing, or make a comment. And like -- one time, he- one time, he was -- this is on -- we were on vacation, heard a lady talking to her friend at the grocery store. And was like, she was telling some -- it wasn't like a personal -- it was a personal story, but not like a- not like a, you know, private story.

Yeah.

But like -- and then saw her at some other store, like, later, and he was like, "Hey, how about that thingy thing?" You know?

Oh, that's creepy! [Laughs]

Oh, yeah, I know. I'm like, "That's a horrible act." And he's like, "Yeah. And she- she acted kind of weird about it." [All laugh] I'm like, "Yeah, no kidding, man." So, don't do that. I'd say.

No.

Yeah. I mean --

That's why I bolt my door shut-

Right [laughs].

-in the hotel. And stack up furniture against the door.

And he's not creepy. That's the- that's the thing, you know? He's just like ... he thought it would be funny, you know? And ... it wasn't.

That's not.

He didn't keep following her. So --

[Laughs] Sorry again, a year later and brought it up again?

Right. Showed up at her house. Anyway ... sorry, Phil. [Bekah laughs] That was -- I love you.

Um --

Do we have any more questions, or --

Okay. Travis followed up, "But I always like slapping language and framework stickers on things, but they seem better for keeping the conversation going than starting it." Yeah. That can be a good way to do it.

What? What? What?

Like, language or framework stickers? Like, talking about those things that you do? Like, as a conversation starter. Like, if my water bottle had a-

Oh --

-React sticker on it --

Talk to me about React stuff and that kinda thing?

"Oh, you know React too. Hey."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

Yeah.

That's cool. Yeah. I -- yeah. That's a good idea. I was -- [chuckles] I started talking about Tailwind to one of the sponsor booths that I was having random conversations with, and I- I -- pretty sure I bored them cuz I just, like, saw their eyes crossing [laughs]. Not bored them, but, like, I went off on a Tailwind tangent. And they were not interested in that content [laughs]. So [inaudible].

You can also go up to each of the booths and practice a different accent.

Ooh.

So, try the same conversation-

[With thick accent] Oh, ya.

-in a different accent every time [laughs].

I was -- how- how many accents? What ac- what accent do you got? What's your- what's your go to --

Oh, I don't do -- I can't do any accents.

[With accent] You can't do any accents?

No.

[With accent] You can't do a German accent?

No!

What about- what about like Arnold [Schwarzenegger] --

Ambrose is really good. He's been practicing his British accent.

At the -- "[With Arnold's accent] Get to the chopper," you know? "[With Arnold's accent] We need to do the -- we need to add the React to the Remix. Now! Bekah!" [laughs]

I'm not- I'm not gonna try. I'm not even. I was thinking about it. Like, "I think I can do that." I can't do that.

Every time I think I can speak in a British accent, it does not go well. I- I feel like I need to get warmed up on a British accent.

I like mixed British and Australian-

Well- well, I'm not saying of -- oh, my god.

-but I hear that that is not uncommon. Like, my coworker, my teammate is ... he is from England.

Uh-huh.

And he said, whenever he's in the US, people either think he's from Australia or England. They're not usually really sure. And he asked the -- one of the people when we were together, she was like, "Oh, that accent." He was like, "Where do you think I'm from?" And she was like, "It's either British or Australian." [Dan laughs] He was like, "Yep."

Yeah. I had -- when I -- when -- I went to Scotlands, like, a long time ago ... before kids. So, more than six years ago [chuckles], I don't know. I don't know how much more -- but -- no, I really practiced it when I was there. I had -- I felt like I had a pretty good Scottish -- go -- oh, no. It's pass the thing. [Silence] I think- I think it keeps recording. I think it's just a screensaver. I think it keeps recording when it does that. But

What?

Shuggled. Shuggled is like ... shaken, you know?

Oh.

Like- like shooken up, you know? As a bus driver was driving over some bumpy stuff and then -- and- and she was like -- something about, "Sorry to keep you all shuggled," or something. [Laughs] It was- it was really fun. I like accents. I'm not, like, good at practicing them, but ... that's a good idea.

Yeah.

Alright.

Practice your accents.

I feel like the German one is my go-to.

That's a good one.

It's like a ... quirky German. Do you know it?

Quirky German [laughs]?

Yeah. Not like a serious German. There's like serious German. And there's like, you know ... fun, silly German. It's like Hans and Franz, you know, from "Saturday Night Live"?

Mm-mm.

Bekah.

"Saturday Night Live" is on too late.

I mean, it's from when we were like kids. So it's not like nothing very much live --

I only know the cheerleaders.

The cheerleaders?

Yeah.

Like [inaudible] --

[Soft cheering] Tacos. Burritos. What's coming outta your speedos [Dan laughs]. There's Bobby Fisher. Where is he? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember that one. That's a good one.

That -- those -- and get off the shed. I used to like that. That was Chris Farley, I think?

I don't know that one. But anyway, we've gone-

Yes.

-way off the beaten path here [laughs]. Thanks, Travis. I'm blaming with Travis for that one.

Yeah.

Alright. Is that the last-

I think I -- we're-

-question?

-that -- we've covered everything.

Okay. Alright. I was kind of ... expecting some of our friends to stop by and say hi, but nobody did.

Well, it's also really hard to hear.

Well, sure. But I thought they would coming --

And I know that they're at talk -- number of them are at talks. So --

Yeah. Alright, cool. Well, this was ... fun.

This was an excellent in-person-

I hope that the --

-podcast experience.

Yes. It was excellent. I'm sorry that we weren't able to live stream it. But ... well, if you listen to this --

We did our best.

If you listened to this, then I've already published it. So I don't need to talk about when I'm gonna publish it.

Yes.

[Playful] Cool. Cool, cool. Co-cool, cool, cool.

All right. And we'll be back next week with another podcast [laughs].

I don't -- I'm -- yeah. I'm having some technical issues with Descript and trying to get that last -- trying to get Bogdan's out. So --

Yeah. So if anybody works at Descript --

Yep. Hopefully, we'll get that sorted out soon.

Oh, actually I know someone that works at Descript.

Excellent.

All right.

[Laughs] Have them call me.

As usual, we're very good at concluding our podcast episode.

Yes. This is been the Virtual Coffee podcast --

Live edition.

Live ... edition

Live from-

Live from --

-Kansas City.

Beautiful Kansas City. And ... I've seen about two square feet of it [laughs] because the hotel is right next to the conference center, but it's been cool so far. So --

Love Kansas City.

Yes.

It's a good place.

We'll be back ... [whisper] tomorrow? No. Wednesday? I'll be back Wednesday night. So --

Yeah.

Is that when you're going back? Wednesday early? or Thurs- or Tuesday?

I leave on Wednesday.

Yeah. Alright, cool. Well --

All right.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you [laughs].

Bye.

Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Virtual Coffee Podcast. This episode was produced by Dan Ott and Bekah Hawrot Weigel. If you have questions or comments, you can hit us up on Twitter at VirtualCoffeeIO, or email us at podcast@virtualcoffee.io. You can find the show notes, sign up for the newsletter, check out any of our other resources on our