The VD Clinic – Episode 60 – Candyman (2021)

Thank you.

Welcome to another episode of the VG Clinic. I'm one of your hosts. You know, I always kind of question myself about that. I'm one of your hosts, Vanessa. And with me, as always, is my other host, Darren. Say hello, Darren. Hello. Yes, I feel like I'm a bit more... confident that I'm supposed to be here than you are. I don't know. Maybe it's the caffeine. You're not a big fan of it.

You are pretty caffeinated. You are pretty caffeinated. I took a nap with the dog this afternoon. Good to go. Ah, there's the secret, folks. well and we have a special guest uh this month um this uh since it is well one someone who i've wanted to have on anyway but i thought this was a wonderful uh occasion to bring her on um is courtney allen or courtney jean allen how do you want to be introduced courtney

Courtney, Court is fine. Okay, Court. We actually worked together, but yes, I thought that it would be a...

Court would be a wonderful fit since it is Black History Month and it's women in horror and yeah, this is... i've been wanting to talk about this an amazing movie that we're talking about today uh candy man the 2000 version, the Nia DaCosta version, and Jordan Peele produced, they both co-wrote it. Yeah, I just thought that this would be a great opportunity. Courtney, we work together and we are on a...

Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee. And there's a media book and film club that I kind of do with that. and court has been very involved and we always have such amazing discussions there and that's why i knew we that she had to be on here yeah well thank you for inviting me When I first saw this film, I had a lot to say and no one wanted to hear it. So I'm glad that we get to kind of discuss the movie. But then also.

Not only do Vanessa and I work together, we are fellow bookworms and lovers of horror. So yeah, I think this was the just perfect fit at the perfect time. Thanks for having me on. Yes, yes, yes. Wow, I mean, it's, and I think I mentioned to both of you. before we started recording. I just said it briefly. I did what I tend to do sometimes. I went in a little bit of a rabbit hole. I re-watched all of the Candyman movies. One, two, and three. Although...

Three is not particularly good, so I kind of actually was falling asleep during it. I'm sorry. It's just so bad. I almost fell asleep. during the new texas chainsaw massacre the other day yeah but um and then i reread clive barker's the forbidden, the short story that Candyman was originally based on. And on top of that, I found this story. that actually inspired Candyman as we know it today.

Because, you know, the Clive Barker short story, The Forbidden, takes place in England, and it's about class. And you still get tinges of that in all, you know, I think in all the Candyman movies. But, you know, but race is the... is more front and center. That's interesting. I found that

The classism in this version was so loud and just really evident. And it was interesting. I don't want to cut you off when you finish that thought. But it was really interesting how the conversation around gentrification was restricted to this higher class, right? And that felt really uncomfortable. um that was probably one of the most comfortable aspects of the film for for me right watching it um and i think i've watched it maybe three or four times but um

It's such a nuanced conversation. I think it's such a, it requires sensitivities that were and were not present at different moments throughout the film. Yeah. So it's really interesting that that was your observation and your experience with this version in particular. Well, but no, I do agree with you that in this version. And I do think that comes from having more of a black lens. Like, I mean, from behind the camera. Yeah, it was definitely intentional.

And also creating more of a Black protagonist, it definitely opens up. And I do, it definitely, yes, it is these, it is the elitist white people who seem to feel like they know the best on. about gentrification. Although you could say that, no, I mean, the original isn't that aware of that. Although...

They allude mildly, but not so much. Yeah. I'll keep it real with you both, right? So when the original came out, I was... in elementary school. I grew up in Brooklyn. I grew up in the projects in Brooklyn. And Sumner Houses, and on that block, well actually Sumner Houses is a series of blocks and it runs into another housing project, into another one, right?

block that I lived, there was a school that we all attended. Everyone in these three communities of projects attended the same elementary school. And there was a lower level where after school, you know, if there was an event.

and your mom was involved in the PTA, you kind of got to explore the scary lower level and play Bloody Mary, which no one ever fully played because it was too scary. So when Candyman came out... i think it was in the early 90s right that was such a familiar story to us seeing the projects seeing um

you know, having this saying a name so many times and then this monster comes out to get you, it just all felt so real. And I think that's why it was so scary for me when I first watched it. And then rewatching. the latest version and the commentary on gentrification, I don't know. It was just, it felt like there was something lacking in that discussion.

I thought it was important, but there were still moments where I was like, wow, did that just happen? Let me rewind that. Did I hear that right? Specifically with the brother and his boyfriend's relationship. I was like, who wrote this? This is weird. There are things that are being said, the way he's calling out these Black affluent people. It was kind of going unchecked. It was weird, right? Yeah. And it should be said that I believe...

There were, I mean, there were a number of writers who worked on this. Right, right. Including a white man. But that said. Jordan Peele and Nia DaCosta both worked on the screenplay. But still... You're taking, although the original Clive Barker story had already been kind of turned into something else. by bernard rose for the 92 movie just by moving it to not just the united states but Chicago and the Cabrini Green projects. And one thing you were talking about.

being like, being like Bloody Mary, one of those things being present in your mind. Right. You know, growing up when this came out, when the original came out. And that is one of the things that they pulled into the whole Candyman story. But then there's also this true crime case. Yes.

That took place in a Chicago housing project near Cabrini-Green in April of 1987. Ruth McCoy, who suffered from who was known to suffer from some mental illness. But was in the process, supposed to be supposedly in the process of trying to recover and move out into... better housing and a better support system. And she called the cops saying there was an intruder. And they were coming through the mirror. And it was a housing project with a mirror that could be pushed through. And...

These killers came through and and the cops were. A car like a squad car came by, but they. You know they didn't really do anything about it. and then i i mean it was it was just if it hadn't been for the persistence of neighbors community yeah community they i mean she ended up being found dead in her apartment two days later i mean it's just tragic but it was also the it's the unfortunate

what we've come to see typical lack of response by law enforcement. Right. It's a lack of response. Right. It's a lack of response. It's a lack of urgency. It's a lack of care and priority. Right. So they showed up, but that was the extent of it. they showed up and walked away. And that was a very difficult article to read considering some recent events over the past many years where you have had

Black people who have been shot and killed in their homes by police officers, right? Where you have this woman who actually called the police for help and her body ended up lying there in a pool of blood for days. So that's just heartbreaking and horrifying and enraging. I know. And then it does at least make me glad that.

in the original candy man movie they reference uh someone as Ruthie Jean that disappeared that was taken away by Candyman supposedly and they came in through the mirror right of the like and So there's that, but there's also between that first movie and then this most recent one, you have the mother.

ann marie mccoy with the last name i mean so so between you know between those two and you have you do have the remembrance and an homage to this woman that was she shouldn't just be a statistic you know she was a person who who met an unfortunate And it's a cold case, which is another part of it. I was thinking about the impact of mental illness. in the Black community, but specifically the more underserved.

portions of the Black community. And I was thinking about that, watching William's character. And you know, you just, you see it. And sometimes it... and it's just tragic and people lose their lives. And I thought that that was just significant to have that character in there. Because he just reflected, I think, what many people have experienced around them, right, with someone in their lives suffering from mental illness.

and schizophrenia or whatever, whatever other conditions. And there's so many, quite honestly. And then, but yeah, I just thought that was really, I liked that. that was included in the story. Of course, he wasn't a character that you really sympathized with, but I could see. that something was going on with him. And I did sympathize with that. Can I just really, I wanna.

Change directions really quickly and and fast forward to well start at the beginning of the film and then fast forward to the end of the film because I was so Intrigued and in love with the paper puppets and like the the kind of like silhouette cut out art i have a whole discussion on that i was like this is the movie this oh that was haunting and it wasn't we didn't get very much of it but it was haunting and beautiful and chilling and

I wanted more of that. And as the movie continued, I just kept going, my mind kept going back to that. And I was like, this should have been the movie. So maybe it'll be another movie. But it was just beautiful. It was beautiful storytelling. Well, they actually used kind of an outside. company to work with them for those segments and um well first thing when I saw them in the theater when I saw this movie in the theater

The first thing that just immediately screamed out to me was Kara Walker artwork. Those... Courtney, you know how much I love Kara Walker. Oh, I made everybody at work listen, read about that. Yeah, so just this amazing artist.

this is this amazing black artist who addresses issues of race gender and sexuality and it just she uses these amazing kind of silhouette and like mostly in black and white but a lot of just very simple monochromatic kind of tones and it reminded me a lot of this and Jordan Peele which I knew before but i found out with this like he's a huge fan of puppetry and he was actually working to get a degree in that at sarah lawrence college

Interesting. Yeah. So those segments are largely influenced by Jordan Peele. They were beautiful. Yeah. And I think the work is a perfect way to do the flashbacks. I wanted the flashbacks as the story, and I think that was... I know, I wanted some flashback too, but on the other hand, it's kind of like... I felt, yeah, you needed to make this something unique. And I think this also, I think these also, I think the use of the shadow puppets.

goes along with the use of artwork throughout the rest of the film. Yeah, yeah. Which, oh, I... Yes, the the film, the artwork is all amazing and it's all they all is all Chicago artists that they found. And I thought it was interesting. not to energy i really just want to sit here and listen to you two talk but please you can speak up you're allowed thank you um i won't do it much but i I like that they got a different artist to do Anthony's early stuff. And then they switched it up.

I thought that was pretty cool. Yes. And especially the way that they did. I don't know. I'm a big fan of Clive Barker's painting also. As am I. I love the way that sort of textural oil paint. I mean, I've seen him scratching on canvases with knives and stuff to just... And I did see one little featurette with the artists that worked on the things for the movie and just hearing them talk about how they... worked on doing those things and how the they had somebody do a curation of a more Chicago

You could tell that Chicago people were involved in this. You can tell that it was based in that reality there. And I don't know if... And it's a lot easier for me to go to Chicago than either of you because it's, you know, 45 minutes in the plane or, you know, six and a half hours in the car or a few on the train. you know there's just i mean i've been to that neighborhood before and

You know, when you're on the train, you're always hearing about Staten Lake. I feel like every time somebody was riding the train, you heard the guy talking about Staten Lake. The Chicago neighborhoods for my limited, I mean, I've been going back and forth there for maybe the last 15 years or so more regularly, but all the neighborhoods are really good at.

keeping track of their history and trying to tell stories about the neighborhood that kind of get glossed over a lot. Well, I, one thing I will say. And when in court, you partially pointed towards this as an issue of class, and it is, but it is also just.

a complete criticism of the art world oh yeah absolutely what yeah i have worked in the art world Oh my goodness. There were so many things in here that I was just like, it's not even just like. oh ha ha ha you they've made up that character in a movie or something it's like no there are certain people that exact kinds of things and like with the one

art critic who comes out with saying something like, well, when your kind moves into a neighborhood, and Anne thinks like, excuse me? And she's like, well... artists like daring her to say don't do you mean black people or people but not just that that's also um and she's bordering on it's bordering on you know

obviously on the racism too. Of course. But then that was very interesting just before you get off of that topic, which was very interesting to me about that statement was, hey, there are... Black people in the hood who are amazing artists, right? And their neighborhoods are gentrified. You know, just suggesting that the talent and the skill does not exist within.

um you know poor neighborhoods oh right it's it's just unbelievable to me that this Yeah, that attitude of how could you possibly have any talent or anything to say? She doesn't want to. There's a certain invisibility. Until there's a tragedy. I mean, I thought she was really arrogant and just straightforward. Oh, yeah. Oh, she's absolutely arrogant.

As a critic, she felt like the art world had ownership over telling the stories of oppression and violence that are experienced within these communities, right? um and that's always that that's such an interesting narrative that you see happen you see it playing out in movies you see it playing out in music you see it playing out in television um that people have ownership over those stories and oftentimes those

Oftentimes those people have not lived those realities that they're portraying. Very interesting. I wanted to, speaking of the art critic, her scene, the scene where she is. killed was probably my This is going to sound really horrible, but that was my favorite murder scene in the film because I was like, what am I looking at? I was having a conversation with my mom and she's like, oh, wow, she's being killed. And I'm like, wait, rewind that.

And so I almost missed it. And I love that. Yeah, that was a pretty awesome scene. Well, that, I agree with you. It sounds gruesome. it's if you're not paying attention humans you miss it um as usual i mean it's just anything where i think that that comes from a Jordan Peele production, even if he's not directing, he's always working with people who have these, putting these little Easter eggs or attention detail. But if you.

yeah again like there's one scene in here where it's the little it's a berg when he's having the flashback to being a child And he's going to, like, turning on the light at the laundry room. And he's, like, by the wall. And he's starting to walk out. And you see a sign on the wall. Partly in focus. It has like a cartoon bee on it. And shortly thereafter.

another bee and a bee actually starts to appear and then the candy and then we have an entrance of candy man it's very interesting little subtle things like that you know who it is that's reading a Clive Barker book in some scene. What was interesting, and I was asking some friends who had also watched the film, just to see if it was...

very obvious to them because it was obvious to me and i was like wow this is like they're being really in your face with this so we know that it tends to be a cliche in horror films that black people will die first right so It's like kind of a joke when, it was a joke, it's not so much anymore, but a joke when a black person got to survive an entire horror movie. And in this, I was like, it was just very interesting that Candyman only killed white people.

There was this scene, and I was like, why is this character even in the movie, right? The young high school teenager who was in the art gallery with her mom. But she was in there for a very specific reason, right? When you saw her mom, you could tell that she was dressing in a very particular way that could be considered appropriating.

Black culture. And so when she's in school and she's in the bathroom, everything about that scene felt so deliberate. So it's... the friends and there was an asian friend on the end and then the young girl in the stall and they start calling out to candy man and the asian friend says i'm out she takes and the black girl just stays locked up in the the stall

The geeky black girl with the bad brains patch on the bag. I'm like, you're cool. I want to hang with you. I was just like, wow. It was, that was pretty. obvious and I can't remember and I should because I just rewatched it this week, but I might have stepped away because I can never remember if it was Candyman who killed William or the cops. I can't remember. Oh, no, that was Brianna. Okay, okay. So Candyman. Brianna, she stabs him so many times, like in the eye.

why did i not remember i don't remember that um because he's trying to kill her yeah he's trying to yeah okay yeah they've moved back into um They moved out of the church. And they were like in an abandoned housing. Yeah. Yeah. So I remember him getting killed, but I don't remember her stabbing his eyes out. How did I not remember that moment after watching the movie multiple times? So I got to go back to that.

But yeah, I just found that to be a very interesting choice, and it felt like Jordan Peele. He was all over that. Yeah. I was just curious if it was as obvious to other people as it was. to me when I watched it. Have you seen the alternate ending? I have not. Yes, I have. Then I will not spoil it. Okay.

But there is an alternate ending, which I think is an interesting way to take it. But I do like... the act like the way this way better yeah what was released i'll have to i'll have to find that alternate yeah and let you know what i think about that um yeah yeah it's it's it's a it's a lot but but yeah i mean it's funny you're right the kills are all like

disposable way people it's kind of it's pretty funny actually it's a pretty funny commentary on the horror end like the horror genre in hollywood right Like, because for so long, yes, it was. Oh, it's the black person dies for the most part. And then it started becoming.

the asian person dies yeah and i think we're still kind of stuck a little with with that a little bit with hollywood unfortunately i think we're yeah we we're probably still stuck i probably i'm saying i'm talking mainstream hollywood i don't even i'm not a fan of mainstream hollywood film or television so um I feel like we were making progress and maybe I just assumed that that progress continued. Yeah, the horror genre specifically I'll say.

where you would see people of color surviving and they weren't just cast to be the first or second ones killed. Yeah.

well right i mean it's it is pretty well for instance i mean one thing i i will say is in here not only you do have the gay couple, but they're an interracial gay couple and they survive till the end. And that's a far cry from the interracial gay couple that we see in Blackula. Right. Who, that was actually, that was very surprising to even. see a gay gay couple on screen. But the fact that they were interracial was even more shocking.

But they were also in a healthy relationship. So Brianna comments, I'm so glad he's found a good one or a normal one. And a lot of times we see gay couples portrayed as more dysfunctional. And they were her people, right? When Anthony starts bugging out, they were her people that she went to. And so, yeah, I thought that was a... I thought that was important to show that he had a good, stable support system.

I agree. But you know what? I got to go back to keeping it real. There were elements in that relationship that I was just like, what is going on? I know. The first time they met when they're at Brianna's home and... uh the boyfriend is sitting on her dining room table with his feet in her the bench of her table set i was like there's no what's going on

i know well okay because i thought that they were meeting for the first time i was like that's awfully comfortable who you are right i don't care if it was the first or 100th time people don't do that. I have never, I was just, that's what I was like, who wrote this? Yeah, I know. That's, I know there were like, there were some weird. Yeah.

directly that was interesting but it was just little moments like that um that that would take me out of the reality of things from time to time but um yeah i thought it was just it was important to to have that sort of positive representation in the film, along with seeing, you know, powerful accomplished Black artists and Black people in the art industry.

Yeah, I thought, I just thought that was, those were little details that I could definitely appreciate in the story. I can't even say little details. They were important details, obviously, because they stood out and they had an impact. Yeah. Can I say it was just nice to see Vanessa Williams and even though it was a very short scene to have her in this.

to date version of the movie um i just say that because it's just always good to see her on film oh get enough credit and enough absolutely absolutely well and i i mean she was reprising the same character so that was i thought that was wonderful yeah but this movie came out right around the time that she was doing a story arc on the L word generation Q where she was playing an artist, a radical artist and lover of lover to bet Porter played by Jennifer Beals.

And I was just like, oh, you know, and that was great to see her in that too, because she, you know, was totally different side than this or some other, you know, other things I've seen her in. Yeah, you're right. It's great to see her just pop up in things. Yeah. And you know, I noticed that she added like her middle name to her stage name. Probably just to...

kind of differentiate herself between the other Vanessa Williams. And I'm sure they've gotten very different opportunities throughout their careers because of what they look like. Both beautiful women, but... They look very different from each other. And I was like, oh, man, after all these years, she had to kind of tweak her name a little bit. But, yeah, it was just good to see her. Yeah.

Well, and I wonder, you know, and I wonder because she's been doing, she's been on Days of Our Lives for a while. Is that still on television? Yes, it is. No, but I was looking on her IMDB. Don't judge me. I've been looking. I was looking on her IMDB credits and it looks like she's been on there for like regularly. Oh, okay. three or four years for daytime soap that adds up oh yeah maybe they were i don't know maybe it was went around that time like

I don't know, her agent or she was getting pressure. Yeah, it was really, it was pretty recent that that happened. Name change, right? Yeah. I'm going to call out a little nuance that I noticed in the storytelling as well. I don't know if either of you noticed it, but as a Black woman, I always appreciate. a small detail when there is a Black woman in a film or a series and she's getting ready for bed and she wraps her hair. So the fact that Teyana had on a scarf.

I really did appreciate that nuance. I think we can give credit to the director for that. But Teyana Taylor, actually, I'm sorry, I'm calling her the wrong name. That is not Teyana Taylor. What is her last name? Paris. Paris, there we go. Goodness gracious. Two different industries. She tends to show up in films and television and bed scenes with- a bonnet or a headscarf.

So I don't know if it was her doing or the director's doing. Either way, I loved it. And I just think it's always important to have that little glimpse of reality, right? When you're telling. specific stories of specific individuals. So yeah, I just want to call that out. I don't know if y'all noticed it. I did. And I was like, no, I absolutely noticed it. I'm glad you pointed that out. Because, you know, it wasn't just that. It was also...

She just also didn't look like she still had makeup on and was going to bed with that. Like you would normally do before you go to bed. Right. you would wash your face and take it it's so unrealistic about most movies it's like oh somebody also wakes up and they're perfectly whatever you know um but yeah i know i saw that and i i just always like that's i mean that's yeah that was a nice touch yeah

Oh, and I wanted, we were talking about people in the cast. I wanted to go to Coleman Domingo, who played William Burke. He's one of those people who pops up in a bunch of different things. But I was looking at some things that he's been in. And one of the things was the big gay sketch show. Oh, oh. I don't know if either of you saw that show. No. This is how I know Kate McKinnon. That was what she was on before she was on SNL.

Yeah, that show, I mean, it's like 15 whatever years ago that it was on, or so. And if I'm... trying to remember specifically like what kind of characters he played on there i mean sadly they did not have many people of color in their cast um but I think he may have been the one who played, they would do these segments where it would be Lost Connections, the man-to-man section. of lost connections of craigslist as read by maya angelou it was it was hysterical because

He had the perfect impersonation of Maya Angelou. But it was ringing the most... Grindr-type wind-a-hook-up things. It was just... yeah that's the I mean I know he's been in plenty of other things but that's like when I read that I was like oh yes I forgot that yeah he's been in so much and he's

Just super talented. But I guess I tend to think of him more in dramatic roles. I totally forgot about that comedic turn. I have to find that because I don't think I've... i might have seen him do some comedy but i i can't recall it so yeah if you can find a link to where i can check that out yeah i i'll have to i'll have to find it If it's what I'm thinking, I mean, but anyway, yeah, and I mean this.

it i think that well so these you know these kind of the whole gist behind this movie to some extent and to tie it in a way back to the original, is that these urban legends are a way to keep the community safe. to warn the community and to keep them safe from the real horrors in the world and you know and and i think that i i mean i think that makes a lot of sense i i re i also re-watched the documentary um that was released on shutter uh word war and one line that's struck me like

Black history is black horror. And that, you know, and you can trace in a way, just look at like the representation in Birth of a Nation. That's a representation of black horror. I mean.

it's it's totally it's not but it's but it's you know a distorted lens um yeah yeah it is because look who was telling it i mean this is true this is true but if you just if you even look at the story that they're telling through the the paper puppets and the the silhouettes um that is so reminiscent of emmett till right right And the fact that you can take that story that, gosh, this actually came up in one of our...

our calls, right? How the story of Emmett Till is a story that just about every Black person knows from the time that you are young through your entire life. that story is passed down from generation to generation. And it is a story of fear for sure. And you can take something like that and inject it into a horror film and it makes perfect sense. So I know at the end, the very end of the movie, there's voiceover asking Candyman, who are you? Or something like that. And he starts going into...

you know, I'm the writing on the wall. And I know that the idea was for him to, or this entity to represent vengeance and justice. this legacy of violence, right? All wrapped up into one. And then to use all of that to protect the community. I think I wanted more of that. And you got that protection at the very end. when he saved rihanna but i wanted to feel more of that throughout the film and um yeah i don't i don't know that felt like something that

was lacking for me when I walked away. I felt half full. I felt half full. And I wanted to be, you know, overflowing with that. Especially because these stories... You know, the legend of Candyman is so rooted in that Black pain and that Black trauma throughout the years. And it takes us to modern day what's happening with gentrification. And I still felt like there was something about that support system that Candyman was supposed to represent that didn't feel all that supportive.

And I don't know what could have changed that in the story for me exactly, but I'm sure there are a couple of things that could have potentially happened. And who knows, maybe that is a segue to another movie. We don't know what they might have planned. Yeah. I think there's a lot of room for them to keep exploring the ideas that they... seem to start presenting to us closer to the end of the film you know what they built to and they are more than capable I mean this movie's rad yeah

And if they stay with similar crew or, I mean, Nia DaCosta, she's still on her way up. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I know. Yeah. by the way can props to where they're due um isn't nia da costa the first female not just black female but the first female to have um it was a debut was it like yeah what was it what was the debut like with the the box office intake, she was like, it broke all these records. And I mean, like, it was very significant. Um, it was, sorry.

I should be more prepared, but the one I had seen was a first black female filmmaker to have a film open at number one. in the box office well there's that but it was yeah i thought there wasn't there was something else where yeah yeah i just saw that one um as the first black female director open with the film debutant number one. Yeah. I mean, it's still, I mean, that's pretty amazing. It's just to have any, you know, it's not a typical film.

Even though, yes, it's not, you can't even say it's a sequel, per se, because it could stand in a way. as its own film. Even if someone hadn't seen the others, hadn't read the short story.

didn't know anything about it they i think they could watch this on its own and have their own ideas yeah it feels like a remake in its true sense right and and so we we see that happening a lot I think with movies and TV, where it's not necessarily a sequel or a prequel, but they're just recreating the story and they're kind of recreating the characters a bit, even though the story...

is still familiar um it stands on its own completely and i think she accomplished um just that with with with this version um and there were just some gorgeous shots throughout the film Yeah, the cinematography. Yeah. There was one shot that I had to just pause on it. Anthony's character was standing. in the middle of that the old housing complex and so of course everything is run down and what's around him looks so dark but then ahead of him are these huge

shiny, bright buildings. And it was just such a statement. It was not just gorgeous, but it said so much. Yeah, that was just gentrification if you needed a photo to put. in the dictionary or encyclopedia next to a definition of that concept that would fit beautifully one thing that i speaking of the artists going into the neighborhoods the first time I went to that area was on my way to play a show at a recording studio slash punk club that was, you know, being operated at very low, low cost.

It was a little closer to Goose Island eventually. I don't know if either of you are familiar with the area. No, I've been to Chicago a couple of times, but it was always downtown Chicago. So, yeah, familiar. Yeah. Showing around.

you know uh since it's not too far from here uh we would often end uh west coast tours on our way back we would have you know a weekend show in chicago and then hang out with friends or whatever and then make our way back home and then eventually you just get over yeah so i was going up for a while to visit a lady friend so i was there more frequently

and uh yeah so i got to see the chocolate factory where jeffrey dahmer worked when he was living in the area and all these cool little bars and neighborhoods and you know she worked at wrigley field so you know went to a cubs game and then went to all that other stuff and then yeah i was like you know we loved horror movies so she's like i'm gonna show you you know it's not the same but we're gonna go to where candy man's from

but anyway sorry to interject not at all i know i mean i i have lived in one of those like office, those artist loft spaces before that basically was a burned out building. That they just basically barely refinished. So people could kind of live in it. You know. but it was you know in an area well that is now more i would say since i left the area it's definitely

I would say more gentrified in Bushwick than when I lived there in Brooklyn. But anyway. It's everywhere in Brooklyn, right? Yeah. I like it. Yeah, I know. There are a lot of different issues surrounding it. And I feel that I think you did say this earlier, Courtney, that. There could have been more of a conversation about that, perhaps. Yeah, yeah. In a more meaningful way, rather than just from... i don't know yeah i think not having the conversation at all might have for me is a is a uh

a black woman viewing black woman from the projects that has experienced gentrification at its core and just like the violence of it. I feel like. If you weren't going to really have the conversation, maybe you should have backed off a little bit. Right. Yeah. Because it was such a perfect, it was the perfect opportunity. This film was the perfect opportunity to really say some, have some tough commentary there, right? And exchanges and...

Again, because so much of it was coming from a specific class level, it just did not feel meaningful. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. Definitely. it was it was still a limited view what i i wonder if part i don't know if it was completely done on purpose but i almost wonder if you know the The art critic and the gallery guy and the more financially secure folk clumsily talking about the issue.

as if they feel like their authorities on it i don't know if if any of that was on purpose it seemed like that was definitely on purpose right so yeah that part um I got it. It was the conversations that Brianna and Anthony was having with her, her brother and Troy's the brother's name. Right. And I can't remember the boyfriend's name. Brady.

yeah so those conversations where they're all like sitting up in this fancy apartment and then the boyfriend is like oh kind of like you know as they're critiquing gentrification the boyfriend steps and he's like well that's pretty much what y'all have done y'all come into this area that used to house poor people and now it's all built up and here you are with your money um and your class status so you know there were just i felt like there could have been opportunities to

have different perspectives in that conversation, especially when you're talking about gentrification and you're diving into this old project grounds. talking you know introducing characters that were raised there and still living there i just felt like there was missed opportunity um in that who knows it could have been in the script and that edited out who knows well true because i mean i i i did watch

deleted scenes, but there's nothing that expands on that. And for a movie that's about an hour and a half, I feel like there's room to add a little to the script there. It doesn't have to be a big, massive, long amount of time.

but you're allowed for time to have a little bit more in-depth discussion and still keep this movie at a tight pace right right um because you also look you have already are addressing issues of mental illness and police brutality and and and then just general microaggressions and in other ways that you know particularly the mental illness and the police brutality and and just wanting to be you know represented and this you know

It's just there's already so much there. It wouldn't take that much more time or effort to add in the. Just a couple extra minutes in the script. Yeah. And I wondered if Anthony was meant to be that representation and that voice and that perspective, but. I didn't sense that he was. I just had to ask myself that question because it was...

You know, you mentioned all of the elements that were tackled, but all of these other elements that were tackled, that could be, you know, their own movie in itself. But they still managed it into the story. Hey, that's not Brooklyn this time. But that's my Brooklyn energy, like attracting that noise and activity. always Brooklyn in my heart. But yeah, I just, you know, when they were going back to the old project grounds, I felt like maybe there could have just been a character there.

that had some insight to offer, something could have happened, right? Yeah, that was a little disappointing for me. And I could just be highly sensitive because I was born and raised in the projects and I know the kind of ideas and judgments that people kind of latch on to that. And when I see it being portrayed in films, when there's something that feels not dehumanizing, but there's like this coldness about it where it's just.

a word. You just say gentrification or you just happen to show the buildings and you're not capturing the heart of the people that actually live and experience that space. um i'm extra sensitive to that so that could be why my disappointment was so deep and i just you know i like the film i wanted to love it but that was one of the reasons why i just couldn't love it the way i hoped to yeah there was oh man what there was something i wanted to ask um i can't remember it'll come to mind

It has, it just escaped my brain. It'll come back. And you, you know, his mother. When, you know, when Anne. anthony goes goes and talks to her she she talks about i mean he asked why didn't you tell me And, you know, because they moved away from Cabrini Green and he grew up in another part of Chicago. And she's like. I thought I could keep you safe. And isn't, and that's the same phrase that every parent wants to tell their child, but it's.

It feels like every Black person I know that has said, oh, the time when I had the discussion from my parents as a child about.

interacting with law enforcement or interacting with certain kinds of people, you know, who may be racist and, you know, that kind of thing, you know, and, and how there's always this like fear that's and and and this goes back to where you were saying earlier that you know your urban legends are there to basically as a way to cover for everyday real life horror because nobody wants to believe that

There are real life horrors in the world. I mean, at least not as many as there are. Maybe. I absolutely hear what you're saying. I can tell you that. The realities that I have witnessed, and this is just like my personal point of view, but the realities that I've witnessed, the stories of other people's realities. have always been far scarier, far more frightening than any urban legend I've ever heard. The urban legends...

have been kind of like fun and games, right? And it's the real stories that became kind of what urban, they became urban legends to us, but they were real. Yeah, like stories about... that feel like ghost stories, but they weren't ghost stories, you know? Like, you know, just reading that article about this woman that's suffering from mental illness and she's calling the cops and, you know, no one comes to her aid.

essentially. They show up, but they don't show up. Stories that I've heard about people with mental illness in the neighborhood and murders. you know all sorts of things that are from you yeah i've i mean i've i've had that happen where my police my my neighbors who had a family member that lived with them that was off their psych meds and had some sort of mental episode. They were trying to get 911 there to help. And the cops just, yeah, just killed the neighbor, killed my neighbor.

And I mean, my neighbor was, yes, a person of color, too, which I know that was an additional. part of the situation but they don't treat the mentally ill well in in general so and and you do even i mean you see that but well the sorry i lost my train of thought see darren's had all the coffee you know i don't do caffeine either so i'm feeling it oh no i could i just i've started cutting it off at a certain point in the day i i can't even um if i try to drink a cup of coffee

My goodness, I could probably run a marathon. That's how sensitive my body is to caffeine. And yes, real life horrors are worse. And but we but these these urban legends are like they're to some extent are created. I mean, yes, to scare kids, but. You know, you also have to hit the point where to let the child, though, or someone know these are. real horrors these are real concerns that you need to be you know that you need to worry about and that's why I mean like the the

Sorry, I have completely lost. I had a thought. I really did have a point to make.

No, that's fine. I'm going to just step in and mention, kind of go back to the whole illness because I thought they continued to kind of circle back on that beautifully. with various characters, right? And certainly William was one that stood out in my mind, but then also Anthony, right? I think he would be experienced by people as someone that was having some sort of a mental...

breakdown, a psychotic breakdown. And even just watching his physical appearance shift felt so familiar. It reminded me of a one in... on a light end it reminded me of the fly and how that obsession and then he just morphed into this monster um but then you get the bonus

I was like, ah, it was so creepy. Yeah, I love that movie, but it's hard to watch that transformation. So it was very hard to watch his transformation too. But then outside of just watching this film, Beyond that, I was like, oh, the transformation. the shift that occurs in people that are dealing with mental health issues and they're not being supported and they're not receiving any sort of treatment, that can really just...

completely make them unrecognizable to themselves and others. And so while I couldn't look at him, it was still breaking my heart at the same time. Yeah, every time I've rewatched the film. that's that's hard for me to to see unfold yeah and and and i i i and i said ding ding ding about the fly because On like the extras to the movie specifically say she was influenced by Cronenberg's The Fly. I mean, it's between the body horror and this.

weird love story obsession um she said that that you know very that played very much into it for her but I particularly love the makeup work that was done to create the transformation. from Anthony into Candyman. Because as the child of an entomologist, I particularly love that it looked like Honeycomb. We had beehives in my backyard until I was maybe probably three, three and a half. Wow.

yeah and we also found out i was allergic to them guys so the bees or the hives or to be to the to to be the to bee stings like i can i can have honey like i'm fine with that or like having beeswax around right uh but it's just yeah At least I'm not like, oh, I have to have an EpiPen with me at all times. But yeah. So my sister is allergic to mosquito bites. And my goodness.

happens to her poor face over the summer is just yeah just swells up from every little bite but back to bees and flies yes i i saw that uh some you know how familiar that was and i wondered if there was any sort of influence so yeah i didn't know that she had mentioned that yeah yeah and i i just and um But, you know, yeah, it's definitely there, aside from just body horror. But, Darren, is there anything you want to...

elaborate on? Yeah. You've been relatively quiet. These are my favorite kinds of episodes where I just get to sit and listen to people smarter than I. Talk about things more eloquently than I would jabber out if I unleashed my coffee into the microphone. You painted a very clear and hilarious picture. So I wish you would have unleashed our coffee into the microphone. Maybe next time.

don't want to scare you away it's your first time here one um thing i i did want to bring up is that you know When they filmed the original Candyman in Cabrini Green, there was all the gang activity.

And they actually had to broker a deal with some of the gangs that were in the housing project. And they actually hired some of them to work. on the set. But I love this story. I love this story. And I probably shouldn't love it as much as I do. But the idea that you're coming into people's homes, hire them. well they're in a gang or not hire them well and that's just it so they did so they did love it they hired they hired and and

They actually, there were some of the surviving gang members still there in that area. And so they... They talked to them and worked with them somewhat. For this 2021 version? Yeah. I love that, especially because how hypocritical would it be to come into this area and have conversations through your art around gentrification? um however satisfy or dissatisfy i am with those personally i'm with those conversations but to even um to bring that up in your art and not

take some sort of action, like reach out and work with the community. So that's, I'm happy to hear that. That's pretty cool. Pretty darn cool. Yeah, I know. It's one of those things like hearing that when Robin Williams worked on a film. He always made sure that a certain percentage of the of homeless people be employed. Wow. For the film. Always.

So, I mean, yeah. And I don't see how they could go into an area with A. without it's the right thing to do and it would really fuck with the popularity of the film as soon as everybody found out well true that you know like like you said court you said you prefer courtney or court court is fine yeah like you like you said court it'd be extremely hypocritical yeah to not have done

So thanks for sharing that story because I actually had no idea. So that does ease up some of my frustration around the missed opportunities in the film. You know, just good to hear that there was some sort of outreach and partnership with the community. Yeah, I mean, yes, there's... certainly not enough. Right. Of course. Yeah. Discussion. Right. But, you know,

On a totally separate topic, I want to mention the music. So I've always loved the original Philip Glass score. And, you know, that iconic theme, which is so it's just like something that it's like the setting for a fairy tale or something that you would hear on a music box. it's always made me think of this kind of it it's kind of like cues like this sense of retelling a tale that's been told before, like passing down, like just the general sense of oral tradition amongst the community.

And which that's also general folklore, but, you know, gives you how the Candyman legend. evolves within the community over time. And for this new version, I like that. I mean, they did pull elements from the original. But then they brought in this completely different, I mean, another avant-garde composer. But this was a black one.

from chicago or i don't think originally from chicago but he's lived in chicago a long time so i'm like you know i kind of love that that you know just again Keeping it more just Chicago-centric with your crew and just your production.

kind kinds of elements uh as well as just oh the film setting or the story setting rather but have either of you ever said candy man five times in a mirror i know i sure as hell have it hell no hell no not candy man not bloody mary we don't play like that around these parts I am not that stupid white person. Because it's true. Every time you watch this, you're just like, oh.

Stupid white people doing stupid white people shit. I just don't even find that kind of thing. No. It's not fun. No, thank you. I'm good. I don't play with it. Not at all. Not at all. So there was a moment between... What's the boyfriend's name again? I'm sorry. I keep forgetting his name. The brother's boyfriend? Yeah, the brother's boyfriend. Grady? Grady. He was trying to, you know, say Candyman. And Troy was like, no, no, stop playing, stop playing around. Nope, nope, nope.

He was not having it. That's me. Like, you want to play those games? I'm exiting the room, perhaps the building, the home, wherever we are. I'm not messing with that. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Maybe nothing, but I'm not risking it. Nope. Yeah. No. I'm not a scary person, but I have had some strange encounters in my life. And yeah. As have I. I'm not trying to summon any more strange encounters, that's for sure. I do just want to say...

And this is probably the last thing that I have to share. I really did appreciate the way that they attempted to wrap everything up. Right. What with taking these. this idea of people who are perceived as a monster or a villain or violent. kind of flipping that inside out and making them into saviors for the community or heroes to the community or protectors of the community. I appreciate it.

the effort to, you know, really convey that at the end as a way to wrap things up. Because it just feels so realistic, right? You know, thinking about, I'm going to use... the example of the Black Panthers who were demonized and made into villains when truly, in reality, they were doing so much to actually help the community.

and and so i liked i just like that nice neat tie up at the the end i still wanted more of the the puppet work you know can't get over it obviously it was it was haunting and chill like i literally got chills and i was like i could watch this for an hour i could watch it for two hours just tell me a whole story in this in this format and i would just i would be hooked yeah i think we naturally came to a conclusion of the episode oh that's that's rare yeah nice

i know we usually have a problem like we were just babbling babbling and then we're like um like wait we stopped talking about what we were talking about 20 minutes ago so the last thing would

You recommend the movie. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Easily. Easily. Yep. Yeah. I would recommend people watch it more than once even. Yeah, I think it, I think it. benefits for more than one watch yeah because you do have a lot going on and and just a little you know some little things here and there Yeah. I mean, like I said, I almost missed the critic being lifted into midair and smeared across her windows. I mean, I blinked.

and almost miss that. So I think there are a lot of moments that you can miss on your first watch. So yeah, I would recommend at least twice, maybe even three times. I've watched it four times. Yeah, I think I've seen it four times now. I guess I have to watch it one more time. Yep, come on. Get that next watch in. All right. I know what I'm doing tonight. Yeah, and you know, they... imdb which i don't go by their ratings at all but out of 10 stars what do you think they rated it

I think I saw like five and a half. I saw a really, maybe that was, maybe that was 5.9. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, Ooh, this is harsh. And I'm like, obviously people who missed some things or wanted something totally different. Well, and it's IMDb. There's probably. Right.

that's exactly what i mean they're like i can't believe they went and put race into candy man right and it always was it already was there yeah yeah well yeah so you know one star but this woman like the first one i shared this this idea of

Someone who gets obsessed with this Candyman story. And are they, you know, are they losing their mind? Or are they being haunted or becoming a candy man? You said this idea that someone gets obsessed with candy man. Every time I've watched either version, I always thought... It was this idea of someone getting possessed by candy. But it is, but it is that too. I think that there is a point where it.

takes it moves to possession right yeah it moves from obsession to possession and and it's you have lines like through all these movies that are that are things like be my victim or be my witness or tell everyone i mean things like that where it's just like It's whoever Candyman is speaking to the new one in the line, basically. or the protagonist who was there at the end. You know, it's basically continuing the story. Right.

And, you know, Anthony and Daniel Robitaille was an artist in the original one, right? Yes. Original story. And Brianna, who's a curator of art. Mm-hmm. And in Candyman 2, which is not actually a terrible sequel. It's supposed to be a long descendant. of daniel robotized who is teaching art and art is all about telling a bigger story right yeah and it's giving background on daniel robotize yeah anyway go ahead yeah

No. Yeah. So that's just another thing I appreciate it. And they purposefully made the main character and artists for, for those tie-ins and for the. you know, the conduit for bigger ideas and things like that. Of course, Tony Todd, I wish he did audio books or more audio books. He probably does audio books somewhere, but. I know.

Just any time I see him in a movie and then I've met him a couple times at different horror conventions and just always wonderful to hear his voice. The de-aging wasn't too bad. I think it was... Even with the extra bees, which I'm sure were digital this time. Oh, yeah. They had to use. Darn. Real bees. The original. Well, hey, I'm Tony Todd. I just love that he was so smart that he got it in his contract that he got a special bonus for every time he got stung by a bee.

and they had a special breed of bee for just for the like that they they kind of work with to develop for the movie Or, well, for several movies. Yeah. Sag card carrying bees. Bag card carrying bees. But we don't handle their pension and health. And their wage payments. Sorry. That's a reference to my job. Anyway. Okay.

Well, this has been fun. This has been a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for inviting me and kind of bearing with me through my New Jersey traffic noises. Vanessa, I didn't hear any Brooklyn noises on your side. It was quiet here tonight, I guess. Maybe because I didn't have my usual mic working. So you didn't hear that quite as well. quite hear the racket in my hallway. Or the summertime episodes. They're in the winter as well.

Well, there's a lot more outside noise in the summertime. I think it's perfect for the ambiance because where you're from helps, you know. Inform where you're from. It's true. True. It must have changed the traffic patterns for the helicopters. I live between two or three hospitals in a couple of miles. There used to always be a helicopter flying over. That's fun. Yes. Or, you know, the occasional police helicopter. But anyway, like I, like you saw before we turned off the cameras, I am in.

A soundproof-ish room. Yeah, you got a great setup going on there. Thank you. But yeah, it was wonderful talking with you and meeting with you. hearing your take on the movie hearing this is i you're the first two people i've talked with about the movie oh wow i hadn't seen it until we planned this I can watch in. Yeah. So I watched, watched it three times in the last few weeks. Hmm. got those special features uh you could probably easily find the alternate ending yeah yeah it's um

Well, I've rented on Amazon and I feel like I should have gotten the alternate ending. Amazon is cheap, obviously. That's not cool. I'm disappointed. They sure did. I mean, yeah, I'm going to blame him for everything. They might have been available through voodoo. Because.

i mean i have a i mean i own it on blu-ray but i also had the digital version the version of it through voodoo and i went ahead and just put it on that way and i pulled up the special features through that that sucks because i kind of i could still access it through voodoo so i'm like i wonder if I just rented it, I could have access to it. I thought I had that thought if I did that for another movie that I don't know. Somebody tell us.

I don't know. I got all those special features when I bought it on iTunes. Well, now I know better. Now I know better. Lesson learned. Well. thank you again courtney thank you wonderful always to uh to talk to you but yeah i know i i the only people i had that I had talked about this with were people that are horror fans, but that really just didn't want to delve into that. meat of what was being discussed yeah and what potential was being discussed yeah so and i was kind of like

No, they're just, I think there are things that, yeah. So thank you. Thank you. This is a good conversation.

Like I said, I've had a couple of rants with people, but it's nice to have an exchange, an actual exchange. So thank you both. Well, and Court, I think I also mentioned to you that I also i have not seen many uh you know black voices like other than like black podcasters really talking about this outside of just oh the whore kind of aspect and then and including someone who was a person of color in the conversation you know I just

I mean, Darren, do you, I mean, do you feel that you've heard any podcasts? I've been avoiding listening to people talk about it because I wanted to go in. untouched by i didn't i knew i wanted to watch it so i didn't even watch any of the trailers which you know i'm not a big anti-trailer person as some people tend to be in the fandom of movies but

I knew I was going to watch it. So I was like, I don't want to hear anybody else talk about it until I've seen it. But I will look for that. There have been some shows that I purposefully skipped over. because that was the conversation, but I can, without even looking, I can guarantee you there are a lot of people that are outside of. Either the economic class or other things talking with false authority on the things in this movie. So.

Oh, that's a very lopsided world of criticism. Oh, my goodness. Speaking of that, I did read one. review of this that would kind of trashed it and it was obviously written from a wealthy white person's point of view who was more involved in the art world and oh my goodness they were so tongue deaf It was disgusting. I was just like, oh my goodness, no.

I wanted to start. That's an article I will not ask you to send my way. No, I did not share that with anybody. I just like, I was like, if I had this in print right here, you know, like. a newspaper or a magazine i'd throw it across the room no yeah i mean that's not surprising to hear but um there was no constructive criticism to it whatsoever yeah not interested the movie obviously wasn't for them and well and that's fine 5.9 rating on um

I think there was a low five point something rating on Rotten Tomatoes too. I think it's scored, were rated pretty low across the board. Yeah. i i understand not every movie is for every person that's fine but if your if your job is to be a critic There should be a certain point where you can offer some objective criticism. Oh, okay. I thought they were in the art world and just critiquing the film.

as someone in that industry i might have well no they're they're a critic but they they mostly work like writing for like in the art industry uh okay okay but they also do some but they also do film got it yeah not interested yeah i was just like okay yeah Not even worth, honestly, for me personally, I'm not interested in wasting my time or energy on articles or perspectives that are just so... closed-minded and blind yeah i'm good hey and the only reason i even read it is because like i just

The headline was deceiving. Well, yeah. Yeah. Hold you on in. Anyway. Yeah, that's why I try. I mean, honestly, I. i i know i don't read i don't i try to avoid a lot of trailers ahead of time and i don't want to be spoiled with most things ahead of time at least I should say certain things I know I'm definitely going to see. You know, so. I'm similar. Okay. Well. Courtney, I will let you go and then Darren and I will wrap up the show. Okay.

All right. Thank you both again. Great meeting you, Darren. Vanessa, as always, great having these conversations with you. And y'all have a good night. You too. Thanks for your time. It was nice to meet you too. Thanks. Thanks. Take care. Bye. Okay, Darren. All right. We're almost finished, but. I figured I'd let Hort go and not bother her with our house cleaning. Oh, yeah. You never have your guests help with the cleaning. After the party, they get to go home.

No, but I'm the guest who always ends up like I offer to help just cause. Well, right. I mean, there's, there's always the offer and you just have to be ready to.

be taken up on that offer so next month it's that time of year folks it is march madness again That's right. And what are we? Let me find what we are reading. Oh, I've got it right here if you don't have it. Okay. You want to pull that up before? Cause I don't have it handy. Okay. Yes. The book is chaos. Charles Manson, the CIA and the secret history of the sixties by Dan. pipe and bring and tom o'neill yes from uh published 2019. so

That was the book you picked and it is paired with the movie. The movie. um quentin tarantino movie once upon a time in hollywood so the same year as the book was published ah so yeah we're uh we're kind of going uh little manson this time around into the family um you know and it's interesting because Charles Manson and the Manson clan. Not my favorite cult I'll tell you about. And I will go more into that next month. But these two selections are...

A little different discussions than, yeah, than you're used to having about Charles Manson and the family. Yeah. Creative nonfiction. or fictionalized reality a little bit of both or hidden reality you decide So next month for another episode of March Madness. I don't know. Ohio State and Indiana University had a game here yesterday.

But anyway, that is basketball references. Well, you watch basketball. Yes, I know. I save all mine for the March Madness episode. That's about... That's almost... all i know about this year's basketball is that a game happened here a couple days ago and so yeah we will probably have a special guest as we usually do Yes. You know. So there will be that. And Vanessa, you were just on an episode of Scream Queens, I believe.

I was where we discussed the moose head over the mantle. Yeah, we discussed that for Women in Horror Month. That was fun. Yeah. And actually, I'm going to be on a March Madness. episode for a different show but it's not our kind of march madness so it will be related to exploitation so i will tell you more on that later all right

as usual uh hit us up at vd clinic pod in most of the places that you would look for us on the internet oh which by the way still still have the book giveaway Somebody mentioned it in somewhere. Somebody mentioned it, but nobody sent in an email. Ah, no email. Still a little bit of time. Well, I was going to say, I'd be willing to extend it another month till the end of March. You're just missing out on free shit, people. That's just good at mailing people things. Books.

And if I don't know, I might throw in a movie. She's sweetening the deal, everyone. The candy. Jessa. Okay. The Venandi woman is... See? Now we let her go before the gibberish started. See? Exactly. The pot has been sweetened. Vanessa is climbing through a hole in the wall with a book and maybe even a movie. At VD Clinic Pod or VD Clinic Pod at gmail.com at VD Clinic Pod and the other places. Right. This is me signing out so Vanessa can get the last word.

Okay. Bye everybody. Talk to you next month. Thank you for listening to another episode of the VD clinic. If you'd like to get in touch with us, you can find us at Twitter. at vdclinicpod or reach us via email at vdclinicpod at gmail.com. We also have a Facebook group, VD Clinic Podcast. We'd love to hear your feedback, suggestions, and more.