Cleyvis Draft Audio
Clavis's is the author of Neruda on the [00:00:30] Park. This book is so good. [00:00:45] I, devoured it., I can't even begin to tell you how much I enjoyed it. Um, but I feel like it's a book you wrote for us. Because this is a book [00:01:00] about uplifters. A whole novel about uplifters.
Generations of uplifters who carry all the things and who do all the things they're told and are good girls. [00:01:15] And then a wrecking ball comes through. As has happened for so many of you who have been on the podcast. Your proverbial wrecking ball. And then a wrecking ball comes through. These women [00:01:30] emerge.
Really? It's so good.[00:01:45]
So I want to talk to you about why you wrote a book about uplifters. Wow. Well, thank you. Be [00:02:00] here. That why you lifters my second bookers. Yeah. Well, thank you. Big to be here. Um, I just handed in [00:02:15] my second book last, like, 14th.
And you know, I mean, not very long ago, I actually didn't think it was going to happen. Like, I got my MFA when I was in my 20s. It might be shocking to you to hear this, but that was [00:02:30] 20 years ago. And, you know, and I got my MFA, and it's just, I faced so much rejection coming out of my MFA program, and I just wasn't, like, prepared for failure.
I mean, I really was like, where's the [00:02:45] red carpet? I'm a genius. Like, what is wrong with the world that, like, my beautiful book isn't receiving the reception it needs? And, you know, I ended up putting the book away, and I started working on Neruda on the Park. Um, and at the [00:03:00] beginning, it was really like a book about a young woman who like, comes back home to Harlem, Washington Heights area, that's where I grew up.
And she comes back home from college and finds a lot of changes, you know? There's gentrification and [00:03:15] like her, Mother is very scared, and her father is ready to go back to the Dominican Republic, and there's like this disconnect. Um, and you know, for me, writing this book started as an escape from failure, and [00:03:30] like the loss of that first book, you know?
And what ended up happening is that with this second book, it also wasn't happening. I mean, the whole time I was working a full time job in corporate America, and as you all can tell by now, Um Very accomplished. So I was [00:03:45] like climbing this corporate ladder And I was getting promoted and I was like making all that like more money than like ten family members combined You know like and so at one point I was like, why am I?
Putting myself in a space where I'm [00:04:00] suffering so much I stopped feeling good for my friends who were getting books published. And, like, I started feeling a lot of pain around people who were, like, their dreams were coming true. And I just parked the book. I was like, you know what, maybe it's just not [00:04:15] meant for me.
Aransas: You made it sound like the making the babies is This
Cleyvis: dream isn't meant for me. I focus on making some babies. That was fun.
I was like, listen, I flashback every time I'm like, [00:04:30] That was a good time and a bad time. So, you know, like I just focused on my career. I became an executive. I focused on my family. I had two beautiful babies with a man I love. Um, and you know, I, I was just kind [00:04:45] of like this is gonna be writing and books are gonna be something that happens later.
I never stopped reading. I never stopped trying. But I really put it in the back burner. And then I faced like a horrifying experience where My son was [00:05:00] born with a rare blood disorder and had to get not one, but two bone marrow transplants. And when that happened It really was the reckoning. It was the ball that came through my life.
And all of a sudden I looked [00:05:15] around in this hospital room and I was like, What have I been doing with my life? Because even though I had like all of the, you know, trimmings of a perfect life, and from the outside everybody was like, Oh, my God, you're so beautiful. No, they didn't say that. I said [00:05:30] you're so successful.
It's such a genius. Um, but people, you know, people were like, you're so great. Like your life looks so perfect. You have your perfect children. And it's like, no, like my child was born with this really rare disease and [00:05:45] In order for him to be cured, my daughter, who was one years old, had to like become a bone marrow transplant for my three year old.
And so, it just was that, you know, it was like a moment where I really looked around. And I'll tell you this one quick story, because I know we have [00:06:00] more to do. But I was traveling home from Chicago where I used to work a lot for my corporate job. Our home office was there. And, you know, my My child was in the hospital, at the time, with a second bone marrow [00:06:15] transplant.
And I just was like, losing it, I was spinning. And I was crying and I called my mother. And, you know, if you've ever been to O'Hare, it's like the armpit of America Airports. It's like, you're always like, sweating. You know, getting left behind, [00:06:30] like, you know, all the flights are cancelled. And I was just, like, looking very smart with my suit and, like, on the phone with my mom.
My mom doesn't speak English. And I was just crying, because I just couldn't do it. Like, I was the breadwinner at the time. The insurance came from my job, so I couldn't [00:06:45] stop working. I hadn't told anybody at work that I was going through this, because then I was, like, gonna lose it at work. And I was just with my mom, and my mom said, Don't you dare cry.
Stop it. If you fall apart, your whole family will fall apart. [00:07:00] And you know what? Like for me, that it was like happened very close to like, when I was looking in the hospital room and being like, what have I done with my life? It was like, no, like if I can't cry to you. [00:07:15] Who can I cry with, you know? And I'll tell you, like, it was in that moment that I felt like, no more.
No mas. I was like, I'm done. I'm just done doing all the things and being perfect. [00:07:30] And this book that had been sitting in a drawer that had been pulling at me, I just realized there were so many lies in that book. Because I had never really confronted the rage that we feel. I'm a little bit ticked off at the Encanto.[00:07:45]
Aransas: Because she has her moment of awakening. They take the things off her shoulders and by the end of it they put it all back on her. I'm like, you, you missed the ending, sir.
[00:08:00] But it's what happened, yeah.
Cleyvis: I'm like, you, you missed the ending, sir. But in reality, that is what, that's what society wants from us. I mean, even when we have our moments of [00:08:15] awakening, what we're expected to do is to numb ourselves, anesthetize ourselves, and then go back to carrying everything. And there was a radical shift that happened in my life.
I mean, I went back to writing, really, I became very committed. [00:08:30] I, the original intention was to publish a book. I was like, publish a book or bust. And then I came back, and it was hard again! The world still wasn't recognizing that I'm a genius.[00:08:45]
And you know, at some point I was like, okay, so it's not going to be about publishing a book, because I didn't want to self publish. I actually wanted a traditional publishing path. And I was like, you know what, I'm just going to shift. I'm just going to become a better writer. And I'm going to write the [00:09:00] book I want to write, which is going to be about love and obligation and sacrifice, but also about rage and sex.
And it's really
Aransas: good.
Cleyvis: And let's see what happens. I'm
Aransas: going to say it, you're a genius. [00:09:15] I'm team Clavis is a genius. We'll keep going.
Cleyvis: I thought you were saying it.
Aransas: But here's the thing, Clavis isn't the only genius.
Cleyvis: Oh my god, stop it, stop it. How many geniuses would
Aransas: stop? Because [00:09:30] they didn't have the courage.
You're a genius. to keep showing up and saying no, I have to do this. Yeah, I
Cleyvis: mean, I have to tell you that I feel like there are so many women in my life. To keep showing [00:09:45] up and saying no, I have to do this. Yeah, I mean, I have to tell you that I feel like there are so many women in my life. You know, and I think this is really unique to many of us.
Um, as women that I think have been so [00:10:00] demolished by expectations. You And have been so, it's been like heartbreaking, you know, to like see so many of, of the people that I love, especially artists, because I think we live in a culture that doesn't always appreciate [00:10:15] art. And you know, if like the, the way that our value is measured is by material wealth.
You know, for some of us as artists it's gonna take a long time to make money. We might never make the kind of money we could make [00:10:30] in, in a corporation, right? And so like, it requires from all of us to just shift the way we think about value and worth and what we're, you know, bringing to society. And so like, for me, like, that's been one of the things that I You know, I [00:10:45] just, sometimes, and you know, I'm a teacher now, so I spend a lot of my time teaching new writers.
I spend a lot of my time talking, you know, uplifting people and being like, it's not gonna be easy. It's not about talent, actually, and it's not about hard [00:11:00] work, because at no point was I not giving it my 100%, and then some. So much that can impact is something else. And so for me, it's really about just like, arming people with what you need to know in order to like, really be in it for the long haul.[00:11:15]
Um, because I think like, all our stories are required. Like, I think about that all the time. Everyone that I know from the time I was 20 years old, 20 years ago. So now where I'm like, you know what, like there have been so many people that I know that [00:11:30] are talented and brilliant and just put the career away.
Like those stories are beautiful and are trapped and lost. So I think we all have to commit to uplifting each other, encouraging each other, even in the face of failure.[00:11:45]
I think for me, personally, it was really about joy. Because I forgot that I should be having a good time. When I'm writing. Like, if you read my book, Like, you can't help but [00:12:00] realize that I was laughing a lot. I cried writing it. I cried writing it, but You know, I don't know, there was a part of me, too, that I think, I felt like I needed to be writing a different kind of book to be successful.
And for me, like, success meant largely, like, [00:12:15] writing a book that would appeal to people who I didn't even know who I was writing for. For critics at the New York Times, for critics at NPR, like, I just wanted a big career, and You know, it's kind of crazy because I ended up with those things writing [00:12:30] the book that is the most like me.
So, you know, so now I don't know. There's something to me about authenticity and about the fact that yes, I was writing a different book that I actually think there is something to be said for an industry that is hostile to like the stories of [00:12:45] some, some of our stories. Like we can't, we can't deny that.
And I think like I wrote versions of this book and my previous book that should have been published. that should have made it out into the world. Well, like there's a part of me too that's like, but for all that [00:13:00] suffering on all of that, like I ended up in a place where this book is the best book I could bring out into the world.
And I'm grateful for that.
Aransas: releasing the notion of what success looks like, I think that's really hard for a lot of us. [00:13:15] And we wrestle with Well, money makes sense to go after, we know money is valuable, we know we [00:13:30] need money, it's important to our society.
But how did you start to transition your mindset around it? I mean, for
Cleyvis: me, I actually am a student. Um, you know, I remember at one point when I had been out of my [00:13:45] master's program for a couple of years, I mean, for me, a lot of it was going back to being a student. Um, you know, I remember at one point when I had been out of my master's program for a couple of years, I was at a summer intensive, and my professor said to [00:14:00] me, like, you're too advanced to be in these spaces, like, you shouldn't be in these spaces.
And I listened, because it's someone that I really respect. But, you know, in that moment I was also not listening to myself because I am someone who thrives in community. I am [00:14:15] someone who's really inspired by other people. And I'm a little competitive. So whenever I see someone doing something that kicks ass and is brilliant, like I'm also like, I could do better.
And so like there's a part of me too that has like that [00:14:30] competitive spirit. And it's not like I don't want to beat you. But, like, I am inspired and fueled by people who are brilliant. And I feel like, you know, it was a compliment. I think my teacher meant it as a compliment, like, you're so advanced, you could be teaching the class, but [00:14:45] the fact is that I am a lifelong student, you know?
And so I think that being in isolation, which I think could work for some people, that, like, they will be more insular or find more of value, to say to the world, from, like, [00:15:00] looking within. My engagement is always with community and the biggest questions I have about the self which are like explored in my book are really in relation to community and and expectations and obligations and so that was like a big [00:15:15] turning point for me was like being like No, I need to be around people.
I actually thrive in an academic environment because I'm a big nerd. I like to be a student. And so now I don't have any shame and I get to teach and I get to [00:15:30] be part of communities where you're kind of paid to be a teacher and to be a student. And I feel like I'm more engaged with, you know, this academic environment.
So now I feel like, like really inspired all the time because I feel like I'm around people who are [00:15:45] brilliant and they make me want to be better.
Aransas: Or change the measure. Maybe that's it.
Cleyvis: I think the goal, in some ways, for most of us, I think we go into it. [00:16:00] I think both. I think the goal and the measure, because I think part of it is When we go into something, I think there are some times when the goals that we have are established largely based on who we were in the past.[00:16:15]
And I don't know that many of us take stock of who we are and our shifting priorities, our shifting talents and skills. As we progress and as we grow older. And so for me, I think like that, what happened in my life is that it [00:16:30] really made me re evaluate who I was. And why I was in it for. Like, why do I want to write books?
Why do I want to write stories? Some of it is, is to ensure that like the stories of my communities are not erased. And so like if you're doing [00:16:45] something where it's like as a way to taking up space, It doesn't matter if it's published. Like, I think the act of writing the story and of sharing it with people by itself
Aransas: becomes really, you know, like, part of gaining that goal.
So I felt that. I felt that it happened, [00:17:00] you know? And I think the sharing is a really big piece of this that gets in the way for a lot of us. Right, and so how did you sort of overcome that hurdle of baring your creative heart? Right. [00:17:15] Yeah,
Cleyvis: I think for most [00:17:30] people who create, there's this kind of tug where like, one day you wake up and you feel lost in the, in the work and you don't know if it's any good. You know, and then other times you revise or you go back [00:17:45] into it, you become clear about what you want to do, and then you can see it sparkle.
And so, you know, for me, part of it, part of the journey of, of being a writer and like, getting over the act of sharing the work is also [00:18:00] acknowledging to myself that, as important as it is for me to get acknowledgment from others, like that's, that's important to me, for someone to, you know,
Aransas: read what I'm
Cleyvis: writing and to think it's good.
That matters to me. But it also matters to me that the [00:18:15] work that is there is the best I can make it. And so it like that to me was part of it too. Like I started getting a lot more intrinsic joy out of the process of creation and getting over the fear of sharing it with people was not so much like, are you going to give [00:18:30] me five stars, you know, or are you going to give me a brilliant review?
But Can you engage with my work and have a reaction
Aransas: to it?
Cleyvis: And whether the reaction is positive or not, Right, and [00:18:45] all of us as uplifters.
Aransas: And then also being really clear about
Cleyvis: who I was writing for. You know, like I think my book is really for women. It's for immigrant women. It's for everybody, but I really am like, you know, I think that anybody can [00:19:00] read the book and enjoy it, but I also feel like there's a seed in this book that is really about people who have done their best to be good and have done everything that is expected and at one point have to reckon with the way that it invalidates [00:19:15] who else you are.
You know what I mean? Like, I think that there's, there's a moment in our lives and I hope that for all of us, we have that moment where. We wake up, and we're like, it doesn't mean that you're not trying to do your best by your family, but that like, you shouldn't be [00:19:30] dehumanized in the process of helping others.
That you should expect the people that you love and take care of to love you and take care of you back. That's it. That's it.[00:19:45]
I mean, and I feel like I did it with the book, you know, so there's like a satisfaction I get from I mean, and I feel like I did it with the book, you know, so there's like a satisfaction I get from And I get [00:20:00] letters and like through Instagram I get DMs from people and these letters are so beautiful and they're not Always from what I expect, like this older man who's like in his 70s sent me a letter.
He was like, I don't think your book was meant for me because [00:20:15] I'm a white man. I'm in my 70s. I'm disabled. But this, this book helped me to think about my mother in this different way and to think about my children in this different way. And I wrote him back and I was like, you are my reader. Like, I was like, [00:20:30] I, My reader is anyone who wants to read the book, you know?
But I feel like sometimes, you know, we, we get like into these kind of narrow lanes. Like, yes, I was inspired by like my community, my culture, my own family, the women in my family. [00:20:45] Um, but I think that there's something like about being true to like our singularity that then speaks to the world. And it speaks to like all of us who are children of
Aransas: complicated people.
Which is all of us, yeah. This moment, [00:21:00] in the hospital room, realizing that you needed to re center. Did you just blow up your life? Realizing
Cleyvis: that you needed to [00:21:15] re center. No, because I'm a planner and I type A, so blowing up my life meant coming up with a five year plan.
Aransas: I was like, well [00:21:30] I
Cleyvis: need some financial stability.
And you know, and at the time, like I said, my child was going through the second bone marrow transplant and I was the main breadwinner. So, you know, I spoke to my husband about my intention to quit my full time job. [00:21:45] And we shifted a little bit because I am someone who grew up with very little money, and money makes me very anxious.
So I'm very excited for like the conversation we're gonna have later about, um, [00:22:00] so money makes me really anxious. And I was like, so I know that I wasn't the kind of person that could just like quit my job, and like, I have real responsibilities, you know? so the big shift that happened in my life, Is that I told my husband [00:22:15] writing is going to become a priority in my life And i'm going to shift resources to, to invest in myself.
And so even though I had been made to believe that with a master's degree, you should be a gravy train [00:22:30] to publication, I actually knew in my heart that the book I wanted to write is a book that is unlike any other book that I had read. And so in order for me to actually write a book I hadn't read, I needed to learn from like a lot of people [00:22:45] that were doing other things that in combination would give me And so like that, you know, that was tough because I was investing and I wasn't investing in like a local, like I went to Portugal.
It was a very important writing retreat and my [00:23:00] husband was like, really Portugal? I was like, yes, Portugal. And you know, I went to Vermont and I went to like Massachusetts, like, you know, then I activated people in my life because I had been hiding. I had been ashamed and I had been hiding because I felt [00:23:15] like a fool.
And then I decided I'm not going to hide anymore. So that was another way that I feel like I had to let go of my ego. And I had to, like, go back to the people that I went to graduate school with who now had Pulitzers and Booker Prizes and be like, Can you nominate me for a scholarship? Can [00:23:30] you write me a letter of recommendation for these programs?
And everybody came through for me. And so, you know, it was another two years of me, like, going to workshops, take, you know, joining writing groups, [00:23:45] Trying for the agents I wanted and getting rejected before I had the representation I needed. And then it was another year before we sold the book. So, I mean, at no point was it like, You know, the, I blew up my life and it was a big payoff.
Like, I think, you know, one [00:24:00] of the things that I learned from making a commitment to myself is that it didn't get easier until it got easier. Like, you know, I sold my second book without writing it. Can you believe that? Like I mean, like, [00:24:15] I was like, why didn't anybody tell me that I could, like, propose a book?
Oh, no, like, you need a first book that's successful for, like, a publisher to take a chance on a book that is unfinished. And I don't know that that will happen again. I hope so. But, you know, there's a way in which I [00:24:30] come at my work now as a writer, where I'm like, oh, it's not gonna get easier.
I mean, Kate Tellers and I were just talking about, we stay hustling. The minute you invited me here, I was like Hell yes. Like, anytime that I [00:24:45] get to like connect with people and talk about my book, like I love my book. I work so hard on it. I think it's beautiful. I think it's like gonna make you cry and laugh and it's gonna make you a little horny.
For people who like that, you know? But [00:25:00] it's like, I'm proud of what I've done and I'm ready to do the next thing, but I'm never going to stop advocating for that book because I think that book had to work so hard to be in the world, you know, like our creations want to be born. And sometimes we like our [00:25:15] ego and and our fear get in the way of like this beautiful thing that should be
Aransas: in the world.
Cleyvis: And so now I'm hoping to like do more of that, like let that bold, beautiful thing that's inside me live outside of me.
Aransas: Yeah, it's like we all need to mother [00:25:30] ourselves, don't we? It's my new thing in bed when I wake up in the middle of the night, I mother myself. It's so weird. You should
Cleyvis: be gentle,
Aransas: right? I do.
I just say like really loving stuff to myself in the middle of the night now. Be gentle. Yeah. That's
Cleyvis: beautiful. I'm glad you said [00:25:45] that. She has to be gentle, right? So long. I just say like really loving stuff to myself in the middle of the night now. Be gentle. That's beautiful. I'm glad you said that because, you know, for so long.
I, I would be like, you're not [00:26:00] working hard enough. Like something is wrong with you. The writing is not perfect enough. Like what, why are you falling down? And I'm still hard on myself because I have like really high expectations, but like you, I feel like more often than not, I'm just kind of like, [00:26:15] you're sexy.
You're really smart. Like, that's a beautiful sentence. You know, the whole chapter might need to be revised 10 times, but this sentence is perfect. Like. You, you know, like, so much of what I'm trying to do is hard. Like, when we're trying to [00:26:30] confront how ugly the world is, you know, when we're trying to confront and say the truth about what it means to be alive today, there's so much pain in the world.
And it's so hard to be truthful. And I feel like just being [00:26:45] gentler with myself, I think, is giving me the armor that I need to, like, Stay awake and present to like recognize the horrors we're living through and still try to make something beautiful
Aransas: that
Cleyvis: also reflects the horrors and the beauty. We are
Aransas: all gonna need [00:27:00] the Clavis Magic in our lives at moments, right?
I'm looking at all my friends who are writers especially and I'm like, we needed this, right? And we're gonna just remember this moment. And when we [00:27:15] feel afraid, when we
When we want to hide this beautiful story within us, or when we want to tell somebody else's story, we're going to be like, [00:27:30] no, I'm going to clavis it. Is that cool? If we, if we turn that into a verb?
Cleyvis: That [00:27:45] I mean, that would be great. Tag me!