Ralph

He kō nai eipurangi tēnei nā Te Reo Irirangi o Aotearoa. Kia ora and welcome. As we get started, a warning. You may find this podcast confronting. It contains graphic descriptions. You'll hear about something most of us find hard even to contemplate, let alone speak of. In my mind, you know, having a girl and, you know, that really helped me deal with the loss of Ren. I just remember feeling like completely spun out and like, you know, when you're like, what, no, this can't be real.

Then it was the reality of when she was taking him away and just seeing him in the trolley and being like, what the hell has just happened? I think it is another twist in the tale that has been the last two years. I'm Susie Ferguson, and this is The Unthinkable. This is the last episode in the series, so if you're new to the story of Ren Arcus, please go back and start with episode one, The Thunderstorm.

We have a new twist for the podcast. It turns out we're actually having a boy. And there's an exclamation mark. This is the episode you've been waiting for. where Kate and Sam get their second chance. They're a couple of weeks out from their planned C-section when the discovery's made that Frida is in fact a boy. Over months, they'd built a relationship with their second child. who they thought was a girl. I wasn't planning on interviewing Kate and Sam again.

But after that revelation, I just had to catch up with them. Bam, bed. We'll go outside. Their dog Bam was pretty keen to be involved too. She just licked the microphone. So when did you find out your interesting news? Last week, basically. Went for our regular check-up with the obstetrician. And she's like, you know what you're having, right? And we're like, yeah, of course. And Kate was like, yeah, we're having a girl. And she's like, um, no.

No, you're not. Can you see those testes on the screen? And I was like, what? And I just didn't believe it. And then I was just sort of... But we can't be. We've named her. It was just like, no, no, we're not having a boy. It was a total shock. It was an absolute shock. And initially, sort of like, because ultimately, obviously, we just want a healthy baby. But... I was really upset. I was really upset. I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but for the last four and a half months, we'd been calling.

her Frida and I've developed this kind of relationship with her I guess and in my mind you know that we're having a girl and you know that really helped me deal with the loss of Ren. I just remember feeling like completely spun out and like you know when you're like what nah this can't be real it was a huge like 180 degree change I feel really awful now for saying this but just really disappointed and you know I stopped being excited

for about 24 hours about having a baby. And I wasn't really that interested in it. It was just, and I was sort of like saying to Sam, oh, I don't even know if I want a C-section. I just want to get full term now. I remember driving home from the obstetrician and just sitting in the car thinking. you know, rationalising, you know, thinking, okay, honestly, out of all the things that you could have been told.

It's a great thing. You know, you could have been told some really awful news. Your baby's really healthy. That's the main thing. It doesn't matter if it's a girl or a boy. But I think because I really psychologically set myself up to have a daughter and...

A lot of it was like one of the things that was really painful when we lost Ren, and it might seem really superficial, but was having all these clothes and things like that around that I knew that she was never going to fill. So the idea of having another daughter and someone who was going to wear those things. and have that presence around our house was, you know, it was a huge relief for me and really helped me deal with it. And then this idea that it was going to be a boy.

just really, really threw me, really upset me. And Sam had to kind of give me a pep talk and was like, you know, stop being sexist. And also, you know, it's the same little baby that's helped get us through this really hard. you know, last 12, 10 months, whatever. And it doesn't really make a difference. No, it's the same conversations we've had with the baby. It's still the same being that it was before, just hiding its...

Testicles, really. Just being a prankster like his father, basically. So now I've got two of them to put up with. I'm really, really excited and happy now. And I feel exactly like I did about Frida. as I do about this baby. Although it seems really weird because, you know, we had this baby Freda and now she never actually existed. So, and it's kind of like talking about her in a past tense. The curveball at such a late stage.

It did make me miss Ren so much more. Like, I sort of been... I don't know. Sorry. Okay. Sorry. My tea went down the wrong way and I was trying really hard not to cough when you were being that really poignant moment. Sorry, hang on, let me just cough. Okay, I'm not going to drink any more tea. So you were saying that, yeah, kind of it made you... miss ran even more yeah because i like this year has been incredibly hard and we sort of just like we've got through it but it's

It's been incredibly tough and it's sort of almost, like I know having a baby girl wasn't going to erase what happened with Ren, but it was sort of almost like, I don't know, like a chance to... have what we lost I was like a horrible kid and to be honest I was like so was I though yeah but I can't imagine that and I know like being a teenage boy is horrible

Yeah, I have to say that is one of the things that probably worried me about it is because, probably quite naively, I've always thought that if we had a girl... They'd be like me. And if we had a boy, they'd be like Sam. Sam's quite sensitive and sweet. And I'm, you know, I'm pretty tough and resilient. And so I'm like, oh, a girl will be easier to raise than, you know.

a sweet sensitive boy and I know that sounds ridiculous but that's I think as well was one of my concerns and because because I hadn't really gotten the mindset of what it's going to be like to raise a boy which again sounds probably sounds really stupid but

You know, when you think that you're just going to be the mother of daughters, because obviously that's what I was last time and that's what I thought I was this time, you kind of just have expectations. And, yeah, that just completely changed.

You'll remember Wren was born during a thunderstorm which inspired her name. Now they're facing the birth of their first son and they haven't chosen one. We decided not to name him even though we named the other two.

And largely, we named Fred largely because of the experience that we had with Wren and that we were so grateful that when she came out and there were problems and the doctor asked us, have you got a name for her, that we actually did because it would have been horrible kind of having this, just having...

her referred to as baby, you know, the baby Gutsal or whatever, rather than her own person. I was going to ask about the name because I remember, I think it was, I think it might be in the first interview that we did. And we were talking about names and stuff and how you'd named Ren and her pretty unusual name that she had. And I remember you saying, maybe it wasn't even an interview. You were like, oh yeah, Grenade.

Yeah, no. But she wasn't a boy. Yeah. And I was like, ugh. Back on the table. I have thought about this and I've like, I've thrown it out there and we're going to... We still see that we haven't decided yet, so it very well could be. Well, it was like thunderstorm. I mean, you know, there was no way in hell I would have ever agreed to that had I...

Had it not been this really bizarre set of circumstances and also had I not been pretty high on drugs. So who knows what Sam will convince me to do. Do you think in a funny kind of way it might be a good thing that you're now having a boy? distinct from Ren, you know, there will kind of, in some ways people will always have that sense of, oh, you know, are you replacing the child you lost? You really aren't now. Like I do, because I remember when Kate first...

told me that she was pregnant, I distinctly remember going, would it be better for a boy or a girl? What would be easier for Kate? What would be good?

And I thought, oh, it would be so great if we had a boy because it would be a shift and we could have two distinct stories. And I always wondered about how hard would it be for our... a daughter to be growing up knowing that she had an older sister that really shaped who me and Kate are now I still love another little girl because I think that would be absolutely adorable but I think

Having a boy, I think it is another twist in the tale that has been the last two years. And the surprise has given them momentum. Immediately after the appointment, we're like... Well, we've got no boys clothes, which actually turned out we actually had quite a lot of unisex clothes that we went and spent, you know, we went out and bought quite a lot. And that was, and it didn't feel, it didn't feel.

No, it didn't, yeah. It didn't feel like I was jinxing something or, you know. But you were quite, you do like nice clothes and you were very disappointed with the range of boys' clothes. Yeah, I did. And like...

What if he doesn't like trucks or dinosaurs or, like... all the words on them are quite like uber masculine and it's like this is a baby this weird idea of what masculinity should be like the last two weeks have been a big shift in our ability to prepare and think like we even went out when we did um

shopping the other day and bought newborn color change nappies that change color when they wet themselves and I couldn't imagine doing that two weeks ago for the last year it has been every time I've done shopping it's been absolutely torture going down the baby aisle. But in the last two weeks we've actually been able to do it and be able to think about it and be excited about it.

Kate and Sam are in the last few days before they have their son and are looking back to try to make sense of the last year. When you've gone through something that hurts so much, it's much easier to put up. a wall than actually face it and being vulnerable is facing what you've gone through wow so were you saying 10 sleeps to go yeah oh my god 10 sleeps to go

Yeah, I don't sleep much, all of them, which is annoying because I really think I'm really going to need to sleep. And I'll probably really regret it, but I just can't physically. I can't switch my mind off and when I switch my mind off. I usually get woken up by being uncomfortable, needing the toilet, indigestion. Yeah, you name it. The joys of pregnancy. Yeah, yeah. And it all comes down to the last moments.

I don't know what we're going to do on Sunday night. The night before. The night before. Like, what do you do? Like, how are you supposed to sleep through that? So, yes, that's morning report done for another day. You can just hear the bird just to the last few seconds before nine o'clock. The variable oyster catcher, Torea Pango. RNZ National. I'm thinking about Kate and Sam right now. They'll be at Wellington Hospital. They were...

due to be going into theatre round about now to have their second child. And I'm thinking of them right now because it's been such a very long journey for them. It's been a pretty tough road. I am hoping that all goes well, and hopefully it won't be too long before they've got the wee boy in their arms. I think probably the last time you were here, we had the fire going, I reckon.

I think so. Yeah, FM. Right on cue. So tell me, what's that little creature that you're holding, Kate? Well, this is our son, Ralph. I love hearing people's birth stories. I love a good yarn and it's the emotion and the enormity and also those tiny details that people remember. Kate's cradling Ralph as she and Sam tell me what it was like returning to Wellington Hospital and confronting the same place their daughter was born in and died in. We didn't sleep at all.

And Sam's parents drove us to the hospital. I think we had to be there by 7, didn't we? We got up at like 5. I just remember listening to Morning Report as we drove past Radio New Zealand. And, yeah, I just remember all those little details. And then we got into the... to the hospital and going back and seeing all those rooms again and that sort of thing was kind of, it was overwhelming. We've had operations on like medical.

Even though this is a medical operation, like operations before, and you don't sort of sit around with the team having a good... Having a good chat. A good chat and laugh for half an hour waiting for the theatre to clear out. But, yeah, but when I have to say, when it was...

When it was on, I mean, Sam's a real joker. You actually ended up really annoying me that morning. And I think because you were nervous, you just kept on joking. And it was just like, oh, man, it's just like going too far. Shut up. There's a little worse to tell me to shut up. because I think they realised you were annoying me. Do you remember some of your best lines? I can't, I can't.

I can't, and I wish I did, because some of them were obviously classics. But I can tell you that when, after Ralph has been born, and they were like, sign me up. One of the midwives, Jonathan, was like, your husband's pants are halfway down his backside. around because Sam's always trousers are always hanging low because he just doesn't have a bum basically and so I just looked around and there he was like his box is basically hanging out and it scrubs halfway down his butt but um yeah so I just

I remember being, when we got to the room, I remember it being, this sounds really stupid, but like so surgical and clinical. And I just kind of thought it would be a bit cosier. it was just like struck me how it was basic units are quite homely yeah yeah and and comforting and

I can't help but draw a comparison to a butcher or something like that. It's just a horrible thing to do. But it's just like stainless steel. And I was on this little table, which I remember thinking, God, is this table going to hold my weight? And then sitting down and just being... really like overwhelmed being like oh my god this is it this you know this this is it this is it and actually

Am I ready for a baby? What am I doing? You know, all of these things going through my head and then putting this sort of epidural in my back. And then just lie me down and they did say to me, you'll feel like you're going to fall off, but you won't. We're not going to let you fall off. You see the obstetrician walk in with their freezing worker boots. Yeah, because they wear like those meat worker boots and stuff. It's just like...

Again, just adds this image of kind of a butcher's and being scared that I would be able to feel stuff, but I couldn't.

everyone was like it's fine it's fine but we just couldn't relax until we heard him and they were like he's out and I just remember and it felt like the longest longest time until I heard him scream because when Ren came out she didn't make a sound and I was just

you and I just waiting there and I just couldn't get excited until I had a scream. But when she screamed, he screamed, both the midwives burst into tears and it was like... I think you and I burst into tears. It was amazing. But as Kate and Sam had been warned... Ralph did need help breathing. No, they take him off and weigh him and stuff. No, before they did that, they gave him a quick, like, get rid of all the goop that was on him. Yeah.

Put him on you. And then they took him to weigh him and check his things. And that's when they saw that he wasn't. No, no, no, no. That's not actually. Actually. They weighed him and stuff. And then they, I remember, because I think they put him on me.

And I could see that he wasn't breathing. And I'm like, I don't think he's breathing properly. And I just kept on being like really panicking and couldn't enjoy it. And I'm like, and that's when they took him. And my midwife basically turned around and said, you know do you remember this the nurse from niku who you know dealt with rain i remember oh yeah yeah i do and she's like oh well she's coming to get ralph and i remember thinking

oh, that's lovely. That's really lovely. And then actually afterwards being like, this isn't lovely. This is, and when I saw her, this is fucking horrible. I think because of the nurse, I've always thought of quite fondly. And I was like, oh. How lovely. But then it was the reality of when she was taking him away and just seeing him in the trolley and being like, this is fucking horrible. I can't do this again. And what the hell has just happened?

It was a nervous day for the medical staff too. They really wanted you to have the utmost care and the best day possible and this wasn't obviously... the outcome that they wanted and they were more upset about that then yeah yeah which is like because they even though it like clearly affected us the most but it also affected so many other people and how they were just as invested into Ralph having a good outcome as we were because they were

part of the story the other thing was that i was really high on their radar for postnatal depression and something like this would have been you know just tip the tip the scale even more But then they saw me and realised that I'm so funny. Yeah. What was it like for you, Sam? So obviously you were kind of obviously half wearing your scrubs, but you were in there and what was it like watching...

I don't know. How much do you get to see? You can see everything. That screen covers nothing. The other thing is... as well because they've got these big lights that are made out of like aluminium or whatever you can just see everything that's going on reflected back in the light so you're just

looking up and you can just see it so they've got a poster behind there of things to try and distract you like birds and or where's wally kind of thing oh i made like the foolish mistake of like a couple of days beforehand youtubing c-sections because that stuff's on the internet and i could not sleep and i was just like why did i do that and i was like so tired but then going in there i was like oh i don't know if i will

watch or i'll just focus on kate but then i was sort of like i'm a curious guy so i watched it and it's because i remember everything from ren's birth and it was a hell of a lot different because it It was calmer. Kate was not in pain. Everyone seemed to know what was going on and what was doing it. But it's not a delicate operation at all.

I don't even know if I want to talk about it when I'm in the room. I guess you can. It's just the idea of them being in... I remember one of my friends saying, who's had C-section, saying... it felt like I couldn't feel anything, but saying it felt like someone was doing the dishes inside you. And so the idea, when I would think about it, someone like just pulling and pushing and doing all that kind of thing just makes me, oh, yeah.

interesting to watch and it wasn't as bad as the youtube videos so that was good and then just see them pull this little thing out see him squirm and like yeah just holding your breath and waiting for this cry to come out was It was beautiful, but man, they look ugly when they come out. No one really preps you for that, do they? All the stuff that they're covered in.

And they do kind of look a bit like, well, mine looked kind of like aliens. Yeah, no, they are. They're like aliens and all their skins all wrinkly and you're like... he always reminded me of the dragons out of game of thrones when they were little like when he'd cry because his shoulders would go back like their little wings you know and just like scream yeah i thought he was the benjamin button baby reminds me of like an

old man because when i saw him first he was all like wrinkly and his face was like screwed up and but also it's that thing of like oh well so you were what was inside me for the last 10 months yeah I was I was I was pleased obviously but so it's kind of like that you know you know when you've been looking forward to to something so much with so much anticipation like your wedding day or then it happens and you're like an ugly old man but it's just you know it's so much anticipation that almost

whatever comes out is not going to live up to it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Because of everything, we'd spent so much time talking about it, thinking about a baby, probably more than I think I did with Ren. I'm not saying he was a let down he was a disappointment from the day he was born no

And also, you know, you've got to remember, up until two weeks before that, I thought I was having a girl. A beautiful girl, an ugly old man. A little dragon baby. But now I... Ralph spent a couple of days in the neonatal unit. but was well enough to go home on the 7th of September. Kate and Sam had been parents for a year and finally had a baby to take home from the hospital and care for.

I was shit scared about bringing him home. You know, now it's sort of like the reality of, you know, being a parent and that sort of thing. Then you get to do the stuff that you hadn't done before. What was it like? We went to McDonald's drive-thru. I didn't want you to say that. I wasn't going to tell them that. Yeah, it was pretty amazing. But I think...

It was all kind of so surreal as well. I remember the birth and the intensity of the hospital more, but all the stuff that I think was really... hard i've sort of glossed over in my memory like bringing him home and stuff like that because i can remember bringing ren's ashes home and that was hard and then i remember bringing Ralph home and then just sort of like quickly walking past a room and taking him upstairs. Yeah. And I'm just remembering from my first attempt at taking a baby home.

How long did it take you to figure out how the car seat worked? I think I'm still working it out. Kate's still working it out. I'm not, I'm not. But it's like, and getting his clothes on, like, I used to just give up and have him...

Like his arms wouldn't be in his arms and his legs wouldn't be in his legs. Cause I was just like, I can't get it right. And he's just a ball. I think you were so scared. I mean, I'm kind of used to babies. You just kind of have to do it. And you know, they seem like they're delicate, but they're pretty.

you know, robust and to get changed. It took me a long time for it to become real. Yeah. You know, even though we were doing it day in, day out. I was so feeling like, I can't believe they've led us home with this little creature, you know?

Are we ready for this? Do they think we're ready for this? Should we be doing this? You know, that kind of thing. No one's kicked our house. Yeah, and because, you know, we'd been... expecting to bring Ren home and expecting to have like this little person as part of our family for for you know a year that didn't happen and then we had a whole other year of waiting for him so yeah for me it just didn't feel like it was great but didn't feel

real like it was completely a dream or someone else's reality and the first time we took him out was to your mum's place which is just about sort of a 10 minute drive from our house to see your gran And I remember packing his baby bag and thinking, what the hell do I put in this? Like, what do I do? And I just remember putting, like, a huge amount of nappies and about...

10 changes of clothes and some wet wipes and a blanket or something like that and feeling like really underprepared. Yeah, and constantly feeling, I guess actually how I felt was just like a total novice. I still feel like that. They were home in time for Wren's birthday.

it was sad and it was bittersweet basically because you're sitting at home and i remember being exhausted and so happy that we had our little baby home but you know sad because actually we should have two babies with us you know yeah and but relieved that we had him. And I just remember thinking, God, you know, what would this today feel like if we didn't have him? And it would have been, yeah, it would have been awful. But do you remember there was a huge storm?

Yeah. The night that, because there was a huge storm the day that Ren was born last year. There was a huge storm the night that she, on her anniversary. So it just kind of felt like, yeah. I mean, obviously we're reading into that, but it just felt like she was out there, you know. Welcome our little baby brother home. He's a noisy little guy, eh? We're just all looking at him now. There's some grunting.

No, I don't think he is pushing out poo because he just had a poo before. No. Give him to me. I think he just wants to be fed again. I'm just going to put him on that boob. Yeah. I think he's gorgeous. Thank you. We do make beautiful babies though. That was the other thing that was quite freaky. When he would sleep, when you put him down to sleep, he just looked.

exactly I mean exactly like what ran it like when she was in her little casket before we cremated her weaved basket like it was that peaceful sleep and I couldn't But the features were exactly the same. And no one would see that because no one really, except for Sam and I, Swore Wren like that. I mean, they saw her at the funeral and stuff, but yeah. Yeah, but we spent hours just soaking in every last feature of her and seeing him. It was nice, but it was also so heartbreaking.

Ralph's growing up fast. Now he plays with his toy diggers by Wren's sign in their garden and he talks to the Kederu in the big tree. And Sam's built Ralph a play hut out there. Kate loves the name of the colour it's painted. It's called Havoc. The way Kate and Sam parent Ralph is heavily influenced by their experience with Wren.

Ignoring or not talking about a tragedy, like a loss of Wren, it's sort of, because it's affected who we are and it has fundamentally changed how we see things, it's doing a dis... It's sort of saying we're not recognising who you are because of what you've gone through. Do you think having Ren or having the experience with Ren, and I don't know if you can answer this question really, but...

How do you think it's shaped how you parent Ralph? Oh, at every step of the way it has. Until he was a year and a half old, I... would be in a constant state of anxiety when he was asleep like i'd be going in there making sure he's breathing i'd be looking at the monitor turning it up super loud like any bit of a fever would be freaking out

You are definitely way worse than I am. I mean, it's definitely made me more anxious, I think. But in our relationship, Sam is always the calm one. I'm the sort of like highly strung, you know. really reactionary kind of person in this relationship except for when it comes to Ralph. And you are just like this panic merchant where I have to sort out both of them, which is actually really unusual because it's usually the other way around. So I'm the calm one.

I can see it. It makes you so anxious. I don't know. I was just petrified that he wouldn't wake up. Would you just sit and watch him? Yeah, we had like baby monitor and I'd look at him and I'd go in and check and I'd be... Yeah, I was just terrified that thinking, what if I go in there and he's not breathing and he's, yeah. And now I'm just like, oh God, he's asleep, it's quiet. Yeah.

I mean, I think I'm pretty relaxed. I've tried not to be like super over cautious. In fact, you know, and I've definitely tried to let him roam and kind of be his own little person. I've never tried to. hover around him because I don't ever want him to be living in Ren's shadow, but it was something about him asleep not making noise that just terrified me.

When he's up and about running around, bumping his head, crying, he's fine because I know he's awake and alive. But when he was asleep and not moving, it just brought me back and I couldn't take it. When you... have a situation, an unthinkable situation happen to you? I guess the shock waves of that kind of reverberate down your life. Do you see more...

risk more danger in the world somehow as a result of this do you think? Yeah totally I am always always like I'm in fear of so many things that I have to really keep myself in check about a lot of stuff. You know, I'm already worried. He's two years old. I'm already worried about the school and going to school, letting him walk to school, letting him bike to school, but not wanting to be one of those parents who you're always like.

on top of them and I worry about him going swimming or going to the sea or you know just like looking at rock pools in the water in case a wave comes and takes her just all those things I just sit there and I constantly angst about that and I think probably a lot of family a lot of parents do but yeah I just sort of

Yeah, sometimes it can get a bit next level. I always read horrific stories. Yeah, you've got to stop that. Yeah, I've got to stop that. And you're just like, you know, all the kind of like horrible things that go on and...

at schools and stuff like that and you're just like oh my god how do you stop that happening what if that happens blah blah journalism eh it's not a good profession for that stuff no I have to tell I mean my god you want to take him hunting and I'm just like are you serious no but

I think I've come to the realisation that crap happens, you know? The world is like... But you kind of do avoid... You can avoid it, but you can't... Like not taking your children hunting. I'm totally taking them hunting. The minute he turns six, we're out there.

But I think it's more like, I don't worry about bad things happen. I worry more about the aftermath of it, because that's what... Like, with Rena, it was six days of... absolute horror but that horror continued and that's what I often dwell on is like I don't know how to go through anything like that that was the hardest part for me was

It never really went away. It just sort of, it was just such a painful time. The initial scariness for us has always been, because of what happened with rent, has been the initial period of when they're born and those initial few days. But now it's like, God, it's just a world of possibilities of terrible things happening to them. And it's like, how do you not let that overwhelm you?

But Wren's still with them too. We do actually have a tradition of buying a tree and planting a tree. So we've got a peach, a plum and a fig tree. Yeah, that is nice. My auntie brought us a willow tree that flowers around her the anniversary, and that's lovely. But this year it didn't flower because it was...

We've had such a weird... It did flower. Yeah, but it's flowered later. Okay, yeah, yeah. And it was... That was off-putting. I was like, it's about time. Why aren't you flowering? Yeah, that was quite off-putting, actually. Yeah. But we're generally on the day, on her anniversary of her birth, we tend to kind of just, I think we just tend to hunk her down. Yeah. And just hang out with Ralph for the last year. Yeah.

I know he's little still. Do you have to explain what's going on to him? Because if the house has a bit of a different feel and you two are both on edge, have you explained to him why? We've always talked about Ren with him and like every time I would take him to bed, we'd say goodnight to Ren because we walked past photos of her. And I think he sort of understands that he has an older sister.

He definitely understands that there was another baby, I think. Yeah, because he points at pictures and he's like, mum, dad, baby. Yeah, he's very curious about a lot of the pictures. We've got a lot of pictures of her in our room. Now he's older, I think he's...

definitely sort of started to realise that that's a different baby from him, because obviously we've got baby pictures of him as well. I can remember sort of knowing people who'd had stillborn babies when I was a kid, but it never really got talked about by some families. But that's not how I want this family to be. You know, Ren will always be, they will always have an older sister. Yep, you heard right. Kate said they.

She and Sam had a miscarriage after having Ralph, but Kate went on to have a fourth pregnancy. But looking to the future can be nerve-wracking. People are told the whole time... This will not happen. This is worst case scenario. This never happens. But when it happens to you, then all the other times people say this will never happen. You're like, well, I've heard that before and it happened.

It throws the balance of probabilities way out the window when it happens to you because you just think, you know, I was that minute percentage. That means I will be that minute percentage again. Another side of this, I guess, because life is complicated and you can have more than one feeling at once. What do you think she gave you? She made us, like, we were close, but... The only way we could have got through or dealt with what we had to go through was together.

we are like this solid little unit yeah the three of us yeah we are just this you know we we're kind of impenetrable from anyone you know you know and in our and like i mean fundamentally in our own heads it's us three against the world and you know we are people i mean obviously we care and we've got wider people that we love and care about and but yeah you know if we're if us three are together and soon to be four

We are this unit and that's all that matters. And Kate and Sam now have their Frida. She was born in 2019. What's it been like? Talking about it with a microphone in your face. Oh, cheapest form of therapy. It's hard to talk about and it's nice to have, and I found it really useful to have a, like a sit-down time and to just...

say what's going on and what we've been thinking. I found it incredibly, incredibly helpful for me. I remember I used to find them quite draining and I mean honestly I didn't, I really wasn't keen to do this. It was Sam who wanted to do it. largely because i don't really like being on the other side of the microphone yeah and um and also again it's that vulnerability thing it's sort of like do i really want to open myself up to this you know do i really want people to know my experience

Yeah. But I think it's been good because I think actually the kind of cultural perspectives of these sort of things about how, you know, some people just think, oh, well, it's just, you know, it's just a baby. You can have another one. You know, hopefully doing something like this will change people's minds about that, that it's not just a baby, that it was a person, you know, it was part of your family.

Sam and Kate have spoken about some of the last taboos and hardest experiences of their lives in opening up and talking to me over several years for this podcast. When I first broached the idea of starting doing interviews while they were going through their second pregnancy in the immediate aftermath of Wren's death, I was pretty sure they'd turn me down. To Kate and Sam, thank you.

Thank you for being so brave and for saying yes. For letting us into the highs and lows of all the emotion. And for sharing the indelible legacy of Wren Sarah Thunderstorm Arcus. The Unthinkable is a podcast series by RNZ. It was written and presented by me, Susie Ferguson, and produced by Liz Garten. Our executive producer is Tim Watkin. The Unthinkable was engineered by William Saunders.

It's available on the RNZ website, in the podcasts and series section, and on all the podcasting apps, Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify and iHeartRadio. Please subscribe and rate us. Ka kite ano. Call is from a correctional facility and is subject to monitoring and recording. In 2022, I started talking to the men and women inside America's toughest prisons. I got life in 104. Hearing stories of guilt, innocence and everything in between.

From death row cells to wrongful convictions, these are the voices. You've never heard. What was your first thing that you were planning on doing? Escape, and that was the first plan. One minute remaining. Stories from the Impacts, wherever you get your podcasts from.