Jake Knapp on Creativity, ADHD and Feeling Overwhelmed

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the unscheduled CEO. On, on, on, schedule, schedule Ah, what's up, everyone? What's up, everybody? What's up, everybody? Jonathan here, host of the Unscheduled CEO. Welcome to the Unscheduled CEO podcast for chaotic, creative entrepreneurs. who well i gotta get this chewing gum out of my mouth hmm i'm gonna turn this a little bit here

Welcome back to the unscheduled CEO, a podcast for creative chaotic entrepreneurs who, uh, who I don't know. My name is Jonathan and I am running a company called AJ and smart, our main business. within the AJ and smart holding company is facilitator.com. And today we're going to have a very good friend of mine on the podcast, Jake Knapp, who wrote the book.

Sprint wrote the book. So co-wrote the book Sprint, invented the design sprint process. For any of you who know about that, he also wrote a great book called or co-wrote. A great book called Make Time. And most recently, a book called Click. These are not the things I want to talk to him about, actually. I want to talk to him about his more creative projects that he's working on. And I'm just recording this.

just before he arrives into the Zoom room. Guys, I'm tired. I ran a webinar last night. It's a three-hour webinar. for a new product that we're launching within facilitator.com. And it's a product we've been working on for, you know, properly working on it for a year and then kind of testing and whatever for about two years.

And I launched it last night. The webinar actually went really well. I want to show you how that looked. If you're on YouTube, if you're listening to this, I also stream this on YouTube. Don't worry. It is primarily an audio only podcast sometimes. I have stuff to show, but I understand that that's not the main thing. So like, don't worry if you're, uh, if you, if you are just like, yeah, well, I am not on, I'm not on YouTube right now. That's fine.

OK, so let's go and open up what I'm talking about. So here's the webinar. Here's what it looks like. That's a great shot. So let's see what I'm about to say here. Let's see. It's like I can deal. It's a good looking webinar. I should turn off the comments or I'm going to get very. Distracted. Honestly, the webinars that I run are a little bit like the unscheduled CEO, except I'm selling stuff.

And yeah, we, we had a great, we had some, sorry, I'm very, look guys, I'm fucking tired. I'm also, I'm doing another webinar in right after recording this. So. I did that one on Wednesday. Today's Thursday. I'm going to do another one. I might do another one Friday, Monday, and Tuesday next week. Why? Because as you know, if you listen to this podcast, webinars are fucking powerful. And sometimes it's so like...

What a lot of people don't do is just repeat. You do a webinar, you announce a new product, and most people are then like, let's see if the sales come in. What we've learned from the Alex Harmozy event that happened is you just do... You go live fucking every day until you hit the until you hit the sales goal. And I am very happy with the sales we got last night. Very, very happy with how it went.

I am going to keep going live until, and what I actually say on the webinars and what I also said last week in the webinar for the Pipdex event is I'm staying on this call. until every single person who's on the fence is no longer on the fence, like as in you've decided whether you want it or not. And so, yeah, that was fun. I am actually looking forward to doing that now in an hour again because I'm just so...

It's fun when you're selling something you love as well, which you're just like, this is great at a great price. Anyway, so Jake, who's about to come on, will appear on the podcast at some point here. He is a very good friend of mine. We met back in 2016, 18, I'm not sure. And we had a podcast together as well called Product Breakfast Club. Then we changed it to...

Jake and Jonathan. That was actually very popular design podcast. It was much more popular than this. I think we had like 15,000 listeners per episode, which was very cool. And it was edited. It was high effort. Not that there was anything. It wasn't like we were doing a lot of planning on the episodes. But yeah, I think.

This is the first time. It's definitely the first time Jake has been on this podcast. And I think it might be the first time Jake and I have been up on a podcast together in years. Oh no, wait, we're on. We were on Greg Eisenberg's podcast in January. Fuck it. I lied. I just forgot. But look, it's the first time just me and Jake are on a podcast for a very long time.

So what I'm going to try to do here is pause the episode. And when I come back, Jake Knapp should be here if I press all the right buttons. And see ya. Here and here. And now we're live. Hey, Jake. Hey, Jonathan.

Where are you, by the way? What room is this? I'm familiar with a lot of the spaces you inhabit. Oh, you haven't been to my new apartment, I think. Oh, so this is new since this year. Oh, no. oh no no no no you have it's the same one so which uh this is the the this is just my workspace within that apartment okay um okay i moved some stuff around there's a lot of rooms there's a lot of Very pointless amounts of rooms. I did kind of rejig it around when I decided to start doing the podcast.

it is it is just it's just this room man how are you doing uh good good yeah scattered i mean you know like i'm good but i'm I think as usual, I just feel like there's a few too many balls in the air. I know people are going to think I set that up because... The last episode I did was called something along the lines of I'm either too stressed and have too much to do or completely unstimulated and have not enough to do and I'm bored. That was like the general theme of the last episode.

Um, or I mean, I don't, I'm not saying that you go, you have it like extreme like that, but like, what's your, tell me more about your balls. Yes. Let's talk more about my balls. You know, the. I was going to answer that question. You didn't set it up because I honestly almost answered and said like, it's all good. I way prefer your answer already.

Uh, yeah. And I, I think that's true for me as well, that it's either too many things or like, but I don't stay in the two. I don't say in the too few.

and bored situation for very long i get really unhappy when a project's over typically like a big project is over and then i don't have something locked in and i i get really frustrated and and i'm like cranky and my wife is like you need to start a project driving you're driving all of us insane so but then when i yeah once i start something then there's usually too many things i have this

I have a piece of chewing gum stuck onto this piece of paper, but it's like, this is from the last episode, this bored, stressed, like, when will I ever find this middle point? I get there for like one second. I get it. For the audio listeners, it says bored on one side and stressed on the other. And in the middle is a question mark. And that's like...

That's like Nirvana. I like fly past that on the way to the other one. I'd like, I just finished a project. Yay. And now I'm depressed. Yeah. For me, actually, chewing gum is kind of like that. Like, I don't, I don't love chewing gum. Cause I. when i chew it i'm like there's just this brief moment when it's good yeah you know it's like you start chewing it and it's like it's fun to like break the chiclet or whatever and you're you know the crushing feeling is good and then

Then I'm like chewing it and then pretty, I'm like, oh, I'm tired of this gum. Your jaw gets sore, but then you can't, there's nowhere to spit it out. So you have to stick it onto a random piece of paper on your desk and it will stay here for years. I don't know, like two weeks from now, I'm going to lift that up and it's going to be stuck to my finger or stuck to the desk. Yeah. But the balls in the air also, like, do you have the...

ability to reduce the amount of balls or have you thrown them all up now and you have to catch them this is a great question a big sort of active question in my mind because i was talking to my doctor i was having just like kind of a checkup and you know i was like oh you know i kind of having a hard time focusing on stuff getting things done right now she was just kind of asking me like what's going on with different things and

And she's like, oh, you should probably take this ADHD like he's in survey thing. And then, you know, you take it now and then take it in a few weeks, see if things have changed. And then like, let me know. And I mean, I was totally high, like everything was like, I don't know what the scale was, like one to five or whatever, but I was like five, five, five, five, four, you know, and it kind of didn't change.

But then when I was talking to her again, you know, like there's this whole question of like, well, okay, so you probably do have all the symptoms. Is it going to, you know, rather than. medicated should you medicate it or should you try to eliminate some of these things try to reduce some of you know because you're also just clearly like there are too many things going on but i was like you know a lot of the stuff is just the you

You go along life, you have, you know, you have kids, you have family, stuff I got to do to take care of, of just life. And then you're running your own business and stuff you got to do to run your business. And it's like, yeah, at the margin, maybe there's like a few things, but it's actually very hard to reduce. You get in a certain situation in life, it's very hard to reduce. uh you know a lot of the focus so there's a lot of i think very nice sounding statements about oh yeah you know just

Hell yes or no, right? Like the Derek Shivers thing. That sounds great, but there's a lot of things that I just can't say. No to my child. Oh, my child's not a hell yeah right now. So fuck it. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So anyway, that's, that's where I am. I don't even, I don't know. I think I can't tell whether to.

medicaid so i can focus better if that's actually just throwing you know something at like a problem that's really just a matter of the main solution is probably just acknowledging there are some things i'm gonna like not be so great at things are gonna fall through the cracks and i have more unanswered emails in my inbox than i'd like to and that's you know maybe that's just the way it is this is so interesting so

You and I haven't talked in quite a while. Do you know that I started testing out ADHD medication? I do, and I wanted to talk to you about it. Because I was wondering, is that also completely a coincidence that you hadn't known about that as well? It's a really big conflict for me, basically.

So, uh, in January, so first of all, it's been a conflict for me for a long time because people have been telling me I have ADHD since I was like fucking born. Um, and I've just been like, no, you know, or, or no, or I don't care. Because I've built, obviously, I've been able to be successful regardless. But what happened or what was interesting is I think in...

December or January. I can't remember exactly the thing that triggered it, but different people were saying it. Different people were talking about it. And I was always like, that's not something I'm... So it's not affecting me so much, whatever. But then a combination of people explained some of the symptoms that are ADHD related, which are not any of the things that I'd heard. So for example, focus and distraction, I actually don't care. I fall into that thing where I'm like, yeah, I mean...

I've created this chaotic life in a way and there's things I have to do and that's kind of fine. The thing I don't like, the sensation on that side I don't like is the sense of being kind of like overwhelmed. And like, there's like, oh, fuck, man, there's just so much going on. And I can't if one more bill comes in the door that I have to deal with or something or one more letter or person texts me and they're like.

then I'm like, oh fuck, I'm going to crack under this. So that I do obviously, I don't obviously enjoy, but still it's something which I find kind of tolerable. Anyway, long story short, someone, you know, because I talked about this before, I've got like generalized anxiety disorder. So more of this, like sometimes this general sense of dread just descends upon me.

which I really like. And I've been going to therapy for that for a long time. And then someone was like, do you know that like this... thing this kind of catastrophizing and thinking of all the bad things that could happen and and sort of having these sometimes depressive phases etc etc it actually could be your very obvious adhd causing or like creating all of that

And I was like, fine, if you've hit me with something I actually want to solve. And so I went and did the full diagnosis. It was like three different or three. conversations with a doctor and then they also had a conversation with my mom which is hilarious um what's it they the doctor talked to your mom yeah you did no the doctor oh my god how did that go do you know anything about how that went um

Lillian. Yeah. Lillian talked to them. I think, I think that she, Lil said like I was great in school and all that kind of stuff. Um, even though I never really went and didn't pay any attention and everything. Um, exactly. She was like, he was brilliant.

um but yeah in the end that like after the first session the doctor was like yeah you have you have obviously you have like the you know top 99th percentile you are yeah you are that um and uh the things that the things that were really bugging me so the things that actually were causing me problems in my life um one is this thing of like I can get really excited about something and then the excitement essentially disappears from 100 to zero. It's not like slowly dissipates.

It's like, I don't want to ever do this ever again. You know, once the excitement is gone, it's like, oh my God, I can't believe. And if I don't create momentum behind something, like people being on the project and loads of stuff happening, then I really can't. push it through. The other thing is this time blindness thing. I had a really big problem with it today, actually, because of this call. So for the audience, the call you and I are having is at 5 p.m.

After this, I'm doing a webinar. There's a thing called time blindness in ADHD where if you have this element of ADHD, you can't really tell. You can't really sense times the way most people can. And so you go into something called waiting mode. And so even though I had loads of time to do loads of stuff I wanted to do today, I kind of...

Got stuck sitting on the couch just looking at YouTube because I was like, well, it's 2 p.m. now and I have this call with Jake at 5. There's no point in really starting something. So maybe I'll just wait. That's ADHD. It's one of the, yeah, that is waiting mode. It's called waiting mode. Yeah. I've always called that a time crater.

Yeah, it's like the 4 p.m. meeting. I know it's going to happen and there's a crater before and after. And then I know it like I'm like, oh, yeah, what's the point? Yeah. Starting. Not everybody has that. So it'd be nice to have that. Yeah. So a lot of entrepreneurs. do because a lot of entrepreneurs have ADHD and so it can also happen what like I was saying to the doctor I was like yeah but everyone has ADHD

And she was like, you probably just hang around with a lot of people who have it because you could all tolerate each other. And I was like, yeah, I do actually spend a lot of time with people who would fall into that category.

So anyway, long story short, I did actually test out the medication and the stimulant like so there's like different types. I got this like slow, slow release stimulant one and like. all of the things like so i my life didn't get less stressful but i was able to see the things as just the next thing to do so like for example um

you know, I would just be like, Oh my God, I've got all this paperwork, but there's all this stuff for AJ and smart. And I also have this podcast and I also have like something with my daughter, with the school and I've got this meeting later and this and this and this. And I like,

overthink it and I'm going around in my head I'm trying to figure it out I'm gonna have to write it all down whatever took the ADHD medication in the first week and the sensation was I would just get up and I would just think about the things that need to be done. And I'm like, oh, maybe I'll just, it seems like the bills are something I could get out of the way in the next 15 minutes. And so boom, just get through them. And I'm like the next thing.

oh yeah, like my daughter's school, I need to call my daughter's school. Okay. Oh yeah, and I also have to make an appointment for a vaccination or whatever. And it's way more calm and logically presented in the brain. Yeah, interesting. Instead of one massive blob of stuff happening. And then I stopped taking it. So I took it for about three months. Also what it really did was regulated my mood. So I'm quite moody. Like I'll go, I'll go into, I'll go from like being.

kind of excited about something to being like quite detached and fatigued without like, as in, I just know that's coming up. I'm just going to be like, I'll have a day where I'm just like, I have no energy. It doesn't matter how many coffees I have. Nothing is interesting me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm surprised. I'm actually joking when I say like...

Oh yeah. Of course you're moody. Cause it's not obvious from the outside. No, no, no. Normal. Everyone except for like the only people who actually would know I'm moody would be like people who are spend a lot of time with me. Yeah. Yeah. Because also if you.

have this uh in many cases with adhd you're very good at presenting to the outside world yeah right they don't know you're like oh what am i doing with my life right yeah okay so it helps with that but you today you were on the sofa watching youtube for three hours waiting for this call what's why'd you stop taking it um okay so i stopped taking it in july the funny so the the funny thing is actually i did take it today

So it doesn't actually fix everything. But well, I'm taking such a low dose that by the time it gets to like 2 p.m., it's over. So the reason I stopped it in July is because I was like feeling like my heart rate was too high. It can do that, right? Yeah, it can. And I just have a high heart rate in general. And so I decided to stop taking it before a big trip and like a work trip I was doing. And I didn't take it for two months.

And it was also totally fine. Like it wasn't like my life fell apart. But towards like the end of last week, the cruft and... dirt and dust in my brain started to build up like it like it's like months of tasks and this and this and this Oh, God, you're describing. That is my brain right now. Yeah, it's like it feels like it needs to be defragmented, you know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember that? Were you old enough? Yeah, of course. I had a computer that needed to be defragged.

Yeah, but that's the sensation. So slowly I started building right back up to baseline ADHD Jonathan mode. And I did without even noticing like frog boiling, whatever frog in the boiling water. And when I really noticed it is when I'm like, um, you know, something simple, like having to book a blood test for, from a doc for a doctor.

And I'm like, oh my God, another thing. You know, it's like another thing on top. And then my daughter has like an ear infection. I'm like, oh my God, another thing. And when I take the ADHD medication, it's hilarious. It's like, oh yeah, like. future Jonathan will be able to deal with all these situations. It's fine. It's not such a big deal. That's interesting. That's not the way I understood what was going on. That's pretty fascinating.

It is fascinating and the only way to see what your brain is like. kind of without adhd is to like try that once i guess try that medication one time um the first time is also crazy because it's the first time That apparently only happens the very first time you take it, and I didn't experience it again. But the contrast between how loud my brain usually is on a day-to-day basis, and then the first time you take this medication...

And it's like, Oh, interesting. And I'm like, just present in the world. It was very strange. I went for a walk and I was like, I can hear the fucking birds. Like, but also I'm not irritated by the noise. So yeah, anyway, fascinating thing. It's, it's, I mean, yeah. And like you said.

if you can build your life in a way and I think it's a combination that what I'm starting to realize is it's a combination between I don't actually think it's good to build your life around a medicated version of oneself because then if you have to stop taking it you're fucked like if you really then build the complexity and whatever you would be able to build maybe with the medicated version

I'm still too scared to go above the starting dose I was given. So I was given 30. That's like the starting dose for kids. And then I went down to 10 because I was too scared. And then I went up to 20 and I'm still on 20. So I'm like. I'm on the, it's lightly humming around in the background. And it stops working at maybe 1 or 2 p.m.

But the more the contrast of just knowing what's helpful. The big thing that my therapist also says is like you actually learn from using it because you learn. what things you are doing or what things your ADHD brain is doing that's unhelpful. Right. That's interesting. Because you can see, oh, I'm not doing that thing.

For example, I realize what happened on the couch now because I wouldn't have done it if it was in the morning. It wouldn't have bothered me that there was a 4 p.m. meeting. It didn't bother me until about 2 p.m. Then it became daunting. Then the two-hour slot became really daunting because I'm like, what can I do in two hours? Maybe I should go for a walk. What if I'm not back on time then?

even though I have a watch and even though I know how to deal, you know what I mean? It's somehow in my mind, I'm like, but you know, maybe what I'll do is I'll put on the laundry, then I'll go for a walk. And then when I'm back, the laundry will be done. And then I can hang that up and then I'll be ready for Jake's podcast.

All of that led to me just sitting on the couch. So is it your expectation then that you will maybe go through phases in life of using the medication, not using the medication? I think so. I think that I want to use it like a tool. I think the way I imagine it, maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. I'm only in the first year of testing it out. I imagine it like...

a kind of combination of trying to make my life healthier. So like, you know, doing the things that help with ADHD, like working out, eating healthy, sleeping well, not being on screens too much. But also understanding that that's going to be difficult to keep up while I also am running a company and all the other things that are happening in my life. But yeah, what it does work as, it's a good way to defragment the mind.

to I don't know for me I think I just get in a rut then so like I'll enough months of me being in this like oh my god there's too much there's too little there's too much kind of drains my energy and eventually I get like into a rut where I can stay in that phase for quite long and it's not like depression I'm not sad I'm more just like I'm just tired, I would say. It could be for weeks. Just feeling like...

God, I couldn't be bothered. And then if I have an in-person event, then I'll just fucking nail it and I'll be super energized and it will be really enjoyable. But then when I don't have clear things to do that match up with what I like to do. Then it will be back to like, you know. Absolutely get that. There's got to be for me some something that's like. Both.

not just exciting but also like a bit stressful like i might fail like there would be a there would be stakes stakes there would be a consequence to failing at this and then that sort of activates like a different mode that i also find very enjoyable

but when that's not there that's the it's the same for me man i mean i the company so aj and smart right aj and smart i think about three years ago got to the point where it really did not need me anymore You know, I basically hired people to do the main company. And then I was like, cool. Now what? And because that sounds like fantastic.

mission accomplished you've rescued the princess yeah nice job mario like game over like you know victory but that's that didn't feel like victory no because you know what happens in in your mind and in my mind right it's like okay uh, if someone would give me $20 million, what would I do? I'd work on my music and my creative projects, et cetera, et cetera. So I thought what was going to happen was I was going to work on creative projects video. I want to make a video game.

There's a lot of things in this vein that I wanted to do. But somehow, just because the stakes weren't real, I think it was also because I was still somewhat tethered to AJ and Smart. It wasn't I don't know what it was, but it was like I was I still had to do like maybe two or three hours per week. So there was still a bit of stuff that could I could I can procrastinate by doing like for me.

Working on AJ and Smart a lot of the time is procrastination from doing what would actually be good for me and what would be creatively satisfying.

But I find it really hard. This is actually something I've been literally thinking about for years. And it's something I'm also trying to figure out how to scratch that itch myself. I find it really satisfying. You probably, when you're writing fiction, it probably feels like something is getting out of you that needs to be out of you or something.

But I think it's really hard for me at least to get into that headspace of like, you know what, I'm just going to work on, I'm just going to make this stuff that might be pointless, that might be stupid, that no one might see. And so, yeah, when I handed over AJ and Smart, what actually happened is I just kind of like listlessly drifted for about three years.

Until luckily everything fell apart and we lost loads of money. And then I had to come back and I was like, sweet, I have something to do again. So yeah, then that was fun. But yeah, it's a, I mean, the, the one of the. things with ADHD, which is really unhelpful, um, is that, and what I also talk about a lot with my fucking, with my therapist, which is like the only way is she, she was like,

So if the only way for you to feel engaged is if you almost create danger, that's not necessarily healthy. Because I'm like, I got to raise the stakes. I suppose if you put it that way, it does sound right. Yeah. It's like when we're losing money, I'm like locked in, I'm engaged, I'm excited. I'm scared as well. but it feels better than being bored. Being bored is one of the most painful sensations. Totally. Yeah, yeah. Well...

i'll tell you what i've been doing with writing i've been just just in the last couple weeks starting to write to work on the fun writing again or i don't know fun maybe it's not the right word because as you said it does feel like Writing fiction sort of does feel like, ah, this is this thing. I feel like it rings true. There's like a resonance with that.

feeling of doing this thing that i want to do that i know i put off that i know is hard to create space for and it it just is it's a it's a very deeply like nice feeling to do it some of the time i know that when i'm really into it and doing it a lot it gets there i mean writing as with any sort of challenging creative or just challenging project

especially with creative projects there are times when it is the most frustrating thing in the world it's just like and and then when it's frustrating and it's a project that you know you're getting paid for you know if it's frustrating and it's a non-fiction book that I have a book deal for that frustration feels a little bit different because I'm like

Well, at least I know I have to do this. So I have to work my way through the frustration. When you hit the frustration wall with a sort of what can feel like, I mean. this isn't accurate i guess but like to my my brain will label it as a frivolous project then it's just like oh why are you wasting your time doing this like not only is this a hard moment a brick wall that you've run into but you're just like

wasting time that your work needs, that your family needs. Yeah, exactly. It's way more guilt-ridden when you're spending time on your frivolous project. but you're also not doing it. And you're like, I could be spent, I should be probably spending time with my family. And totally, I totally get that. Yeah. Yeah. So I've been, I have this. I have rented this tiny room, this little office. It's like not, it's not a glamorous space, but it's just, it's just away from its way from home.

it's away from my work office and i that's where i write doesn't have internet like there it feels so nice when i can get in there and like whatever i'm you know i'm doing it's like it's been really nice to kind of get get back in there but i have been wondering like well how am i gonna keep this going when i hit that those frustrating walls and i know that the the pressures on the other side are harder than you know then it feels like harder than they've ever been uh it's uh

And yet at the same time, when I go for very long without spending time on the creative project, the projects that feel like they're, they're just what I would truly want to do. without you know any external sort of incentives if i go for a long time without doing it I feel very like untrue to myself in some way. Like, like, you know, I just, I, so I know I, I sort of, I have to do it and yet doing it is, yeah, it's very difficult. I think this is kind of, as I say it out loud, it's like.

It feels like an unoriginal sort of a problem. A lot of people struggle with it. I think the war of art next to me. Well, actually, I don't know. The people listening to this podcast are going to be very sick of what I'm about to say next. But my favorite part of the book is book three about invoking the muse. So part three of book three.

of the war of art it talks about this concept of like well this concept that uh he tries to he puts it into some like kind of magical almost spiritual context where we are here to be almost conduits of interesting, creative ideas that are floating out there in the ether. If you don't actually bring it into reality, then it feels like shit. It feels like that's like a...

Or his point is almost like that's the whole point of humans being here or something is just bringing things into existence and bringing like creative ideas into existence. And that's why it feels good. And I think. My thoughts on this are as soon as you, at least for me, as soon as I was like 20 years old, I turned 20. Maybe it was I turned 19.

I went through this transition where I didn't even realize it was happening, where I moved from impracticality was the main part of my life. Like I was a musician. I was making movies for like... two friends to watch for example I was making comic books I was making little video games I was just creating all the time for almost nobody mainly for the act of creation Then I got my first job. And from that point on, money and practicality started to own me.

And I don't mean that I'm like obsessed with money and like I'm trying to make as much whatever, whatever. I have an okay relationship with it. It's more that this sort of being an adult practicality cycle. just fully wiped out all of my actual creative, like making things journey. And I never stopped wanting to go back to it. but I never actually really have gone all in and really gone back to it. I always have a way out. I always have a reason that I shouldn't go and do something.

I always have like an excuse, I would say. What I have started to do is become more serious about bringing it back. I started to talk. So one of the things we've done as AJ and Smart is we've introduced this thing called the practicality offset.

Like a carbon offset that companies do. It's funny, I announced it in July and yesterday we launched a new product and the practicality offset has to be part of every one of our products now. And this means that... at least 50% of the product or the time that people will use the product has to optimize for or not optimize for absolutely non-practical activities.

An example of that is we're doing an in-person event next year for people who are in one of our programs. 50% of it will talk about the thing that they've paid for and that we're talking about. The other 50%. they're going to be essentially at this place, at the retreat, and they're just going to work. We're going to paint, we're going to make stuff, we're going to make music, whatever the hell it is. It just cannot be useful.

I even have the idea that you burn the stuff you make in like a ritual, like a campfire ritual just to make it so that you don't take it too seriously. And this is something I've been obsessing about for myself as well. For example, I've been looking for a creative retreat for people similar to me. The idea would be, I want to go somewhere for five days, seven days, whatever. I want to make things. I want there to be no internet. That's very important.

But I also don't want to do psychedelics. I also don't want to do yoga. I also don't want to meditate. I also don't want to do cold plunge. And if you remove those things, you basically can find nothing. And so... Two of my friends, I've been talking, I've been like, I hate being a person who talks about stuff and doesn't take action because I don't like that of other people, but I really don't want to be one of those people. But for at least, oh my God.

Two years ago, I sat down with you and I told you, we're going to do this thing called Winter Camp. It was exactly what I'm describing. I'm going to create this thing called Winter Camp. It's going to be a one-week retreat for people who just want to do their creative projects. And it's a...

proper environment where they can really tell their family that they're going to this thing, which will also have entrepreneurial value, whatever, just so that they can actually do it. But I didn't do it because, again, other things got in the way. I'm getting closer and closer. Now I've got a couple of people that I've told this to who are just like,

Why don't you just do it? If you like this idea, you're the best person to create it. I have to create it. That's the problem. Now I've realized it. I have to create it. What I've realized and what I have to give... a shout out to two people one is do you know pip decks these card decks yeah sure when we were in berlin they were there oh yeah fuck yeah of course i'm so they literally i was talking they were hanging around here last week and uh i was like

At one point, I was like, yeah, do you guys know the book Sprint? And they were like, we were in the video for the Clickbook launch. And I was like, all right, yeah. Memory is also not part of my life. So I was hanging out with them last week and I was talking to them about this.

And I was like, help me find one of these things. And then eventually, obviously, we didn't find anything. And Charles was like, you need to do it. You obviously need to create this. But you're thinking too big. I was like... But then it's not going to make any money and blah, blah, blah. But I don't really want it to. And so he told me, which I agree with, this cannot be an economic thing.

So basically, I'm going to personally invite a couple of people to this. Obviously, you will receive the invite as well. I'm going to hope so. It would be awkward for us. And the only thing that, like the only financial element of it will be paying for your own flights and the place where we stay. But I actually have a strong idea for how to design this thing in a way that the kinds of people...

I think it's finally clicked with me now. And I think I'm right on the nub of doing it. Right on the nub. Well, let me give you a counter. proposal i mean actually i don't think i think this is a good idea this is you're just like take psychedelics do iosca and do cold plunge at the same time yeah i mean those those are the people who are generating i don't know are people who do that generating things

I don't know. Probably. Who knows? Probably. It's probably going great for them. I'm too scared to take that shit. You're probably just going to get a bunch of hate mail from... Yeah, exactly. I'm enlightened, motherfucker. I think that the... I was just, as you were on that diatribe there, I was just thinking about how when I started writing Click, I had been in the midst of...

You know, like kind of on a roll with this fiction project. And so I was like, oh, gosh, you know, I think I really do want to write this other book. And it feels like I should get started on it. But for a while I was doing, I was splitting my time. I would, I would sort of, you know, in the morning I would write on one book and then I would switch and like write on the other book and, and then.

You know, I had like other kind of work stuff fitting around the edges of that, but I didn't, I worked in that way for, I don't know, like maybe two or three months. And then I kind of hit this point where I was like, I cannot hold.

both i i can't like finish the the non-fiction book finish click unless i i really sort of shift to that being the only writing i'm doing so i i said i'm pausing the the the you know the creative project not that click wasn't a creative project of a different kind but it's a different kind

And I'm going all in on the other one. And, you know, it's the right decision for getting it done. But it has occurred to me since finishing Click and Click being out in the world. I'm like, OK, now as I recover energy and kind of like.

feel i can get back into maybe writing the fiction book again there's the immediate obstacle of all those things we were talking about at the beginning all the the distraction the too much too many balls but there's there's also this thing i've been wondering about which is like can you know there's this very true saying of like you you you chase two rabbits

I can't remember how it goes. Chaste your rabbits, catch none or something like that. Definitely something like that. It sounds like, yeah, right. It's like essentially like you have to go all in on one thing. Yeah. You got to burn the boats. It seems. It seems. It seems. And what I wonder is like the, the problem with that is with a creative endeavor is that, that, that like demon on your shoulder, that's going to say.

As soon as you as soon as I start anyway, as soon as I start to hit a wall, as soon as things get more challenging in life or in the project or whatever, that demon is going to be like.

this does not make sense yeah why are you doing this yes why are you going all in on this nobody needs this this is not the thing that you give to the world that makes them that makes the most value for other people like etc that demon is like really very persuasive and sharp and like so should am i really trying to

beat the demon like do i have to say like no i must come up with a structure where i can go all in on the creative project and that's the only sort of true path that's the only way to make the most of my human existence is actually to go all in on the thing Or is there a way to question the like all in? Can I create an environment where I'm not all in, but I'm just steadily showing up?

for the creative project and steadily making progress on it alongside the other thing i wonder oh yeah sorry i was just gonna say i've had times in my life where that has worked yeah And I am kind of wondering if that's a form of nirvana is to find like a steady balance where it's just, yeah, I'm... Most days, like, you know, five days out of seven, if I could show up for an hour and a half to two hours and some days maybe to be six, but like.

An hour and a half to two hours. I could show up for this project that's frivolous. This, you know, practicality offset. Wonder what that would, you know, what that would yield. I wonder. what that would feel like. I wonder what that would do to kind of my overall feeling about life and sort of making the best use of it. And that's kind of my That's my hope for like the next stage of experimentation and in, in the war of art. I have, I have like maybe, so, so one thing is.

do you know anybody you can't pick me i know i'm very creative and you would say me no but do you know anybody where um you can tell they're very talented you You wish they would quit the other thing they're doing and just go all in because you know that they would be able that you just know that they would be able to just make some really cool shit and and be really satisfied.

Basically, do you know anyone who's super artistically talented who kind of brushes it off because, well, the practical thing is just doing so well or it just makes more sense? off the top of my head no okay i do okay you do yeah so i like for example kyle who works at aj and smart yeah he's a fucking amazing writer i have read novel of his. He's a fucking amazing writer. But he works at my company, right? I mean, what a waste.

Honestly, it is a waste. I'm not joking. It is a waste. I'm delighted for him to keep working at AJ and Smart. I'm very happy about that. But at the same time, what... What AJ and Smart has created is a very good excuse to not do the thing that is maybe the very special thing. it does, of course, replace the time and the energy and the seriousness that could go into that other thing. And so sometimes when I'm looking at something, and I also see that a lot in general.

where I'm like, oh, fuck, like this person is so goddamn talented. And yet the majority of their time is going into something that isn't, you know, isn't something that would be they would be uniquely good at because. That's just, you know, something safe or whatever. And that I think of a lot of examples of, including myself. Yeah, I think as well. Yeah, I think as well, like you're, you're probably would fall into that bucket, right?

And what I think, I think the danger is, so I think the safe answer here is yes, there's a way to find the balance. The middle answer is maybe it's about this. offset maybe the satisfaction can come from um maybe even for me if i just can get away for two weeks a year and just make shit i can get it out of my system or something um but maybe the actual

Like the people I look up to in the, like, let's say artistic space. Like, for example, actually, I have this book here, you know, this is my favorite book, Annihilation. I have like... 10 copies of it now because I keep buying copies and giving them to people and then I end up having to rebuy it for myself. You got me to read it and it's so great. It's great. I don't like the rest of the books in the series but that's fine.

But like this is an example of someone where when I read this book, I'm like, I'm glad this piece of art is in the world. I'm glad this person fucking had to go through the doubt and everything to create this. And.

I also really look up to people like Hideo Kojima who makes these weird video games like Death Stranding. I love Radiohead. I really spend a lot of time... thinking about the fact that if they had tried to find balance, then maybe they would never have been able to get all of this stuff out of them. even though I'm also on your side and going to do what you're doing probably, which is more the balance thing, there's like a little voice in my head saying,

Yeah, but you're going to regret this on your deathbed. Yeah. You're going to realize it was all pointless to or it was pointless to keep doing the kind of dopamine like. work whatever that that yeah i don't know i don't know i'm worried about i'm a little worried about that element on my deathbed yeah okay so let's let's paint the picture of the jonathan who pulls the eject lever on aj and smart and goes all in on on well let's say making games

But I mean, it could be just a combination. It could be anything. Projects that feel like... It would just be media stuff. Yeah. Do you think... One thing that I've spent a fair amount of time... where I've been in a mode where all I was doing was writing fiction. So not like years and years and years, but like months. And I...

There was the shadow version of what we're talking about now, which is, God, you know, I think the thing that I might be... best at doing that i might be the most true to me is helping other people you know get their project started right like build their

build their ideas, bring their ideas into the world for other people. And I'm not doing that now. I'm just like, I'm just bringing this one idea into the world that like, value judgment aside about that idea and whether it'll be worth the while or whatever like even value judgment aside i'm like do i have this like false structure in my head that values something that's artistic and therefore sort of pure ahead of something that is you know capitalist just because

there's something that seems more sort of rebellious and true to oneself about the art that's sort of just like an is that actually just like a narrative and and because when If I'm purely writing, I am not utilizing a set of things that are talents, that are also skills that I've built over time, and that are also things that I love. I love to, I love to work. I love to help other people do their thing. I love to, I love to, you know, speak to people, meet with people like.

a lot of creative, some creative projects. I mean, certainly like if you're making a video game, you can have a team of people and there can be like a dynamic of that. And if you're, you know, you're marketing your, your book or your. um your your film or your game or whatever there would be an element of like speaking to the public yeah and sharing and you can document as you go and

you know, write newsletters or have a podcast or whatever that's talking about the work you're doing. Like that's all true. And maybe that would make up for it. But I just started to notice that there's this There's like this narrative I have about the values of art versus the values of capitalist activities that is... he's like it's the it's the reverse of like society's narrative maybe i mean

Not exactly, because when you give the example of Radiohead or a really successful video game, obviously society does value those really highly. But for the most part, society says, no, do the capital. Society doesn't value how they got started. these things start like As in people's friends wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't be like, oh yeah, totally just pursue this really weird band idea instead of becoming an accountant. Like it's, you sound crazy when you pursue these things. Yeah.

Yeah. And and so anyway, I just I started to feel that reverse question. And. Maybe, you know, I think Steven Pressfield would probably say, well, that's just like that's the resistance brother. Yeah, that's like really sophisticated, you know, what's it called? What's the force that that the resistance, isn't it?

resistance yeah it's just like really sophisticated like resistance like or it's just resistance but but is it you know like or i know what you're talking about because when there's thing there are things

Well, maybe the nuance here is that, so what I've realized in AJ and Smart is that there are things that I say I don't want to do. and say i don't enjoy which in the moment i so first of all i always end up doing them and i always end up enjoying them so these are this this is like a like a um I don't know, my brain is trying to stick to some narrative that I've learned, but the reality is just not matching up with it. For example,

I've basically been saying for years that I hate doing in-person events. I hate it. I've heard you say that. Yeah, because it's stressful. And yet also the most fulfilling thing that I do. You know what I mean? So it's like when I actually do it, I'm like, this is amazing. This is the, it's one of the rare times when I feel like there's actually really a point to what I do. And it's like, really like people are really being affected by it.

And so then so so what I've realized is that there are things where even within the aging smart universe, I've started to change. I've started to like. mix up our products a bit and get rid of some of the things where I feel I'm just phoning it in and this is just for money and trying to do more. of the things like this full stack facilitator, this thing I do like I did in California before I met you last year.

I had done this event in Palo Alto. And you were like so stoked. Yeah, it was. You were wiped out because you've been talking for like 32 hours a day. Yes. And I was like, I'm never doing it again. It was amazing. I loved it. I'm never doing it again. So then I did it again. exactly two months ago and at the at the start of it to my team i said we're not doing this again the travel is so much it's so expensive to do it it doesn't make as much money and then at the end of it i'm like

That was amazing. I fucking love the people who are in our, like, I love these people who came to this thing. I feel like I actually was useful to them. And I'm now starting to be able to. bring in more of the that's where I announced the practicality offset as well so I'm like I'm also like maybe if I just make the thing I'm doing more like

like let that stuff bleed into it. It could lead in an interesting direction. But I'm like you, I don't know the answer. I don't know, is it about burning the boats and going all in on creative stuff? Is it about finding a balance between

severing your creative work and your real work? Is it about mixing them together? I suspect the answer is just following your gut. in the moment and seeing where it takes you and then seeing how you feel when you're in that moment like for example if you want to try out the hey I'm going to write fiction during the morning and in the afternoon I'm going to do this do it for a couple of months you'll probably have an answer

Um, or I'm going to like wipe all creative stuff out of my life and only do more of my practical stuff. Then you'll also get an answer. And then what if I only do creative stuff? You'll also get an answer. I don't know the answer, but that's kind of the topic that I'm most interested in exploring at the moment. I'm not exploring it academically. I'm exploring it because I'm having this issue or I'm having this...

conflict, I guess. Well, yeah, it may be the case that life will always be filled with this struggle to determine whether the way i'm living it the way you're living like that one will always ask oneself am i am i doing it right yeah am i am i being true to myself am i actually being me yes dated as much as possible on a day-to-day basis

I guarantee you like Tom York is struggling with that. Totally. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm very sure. Yeah. We sometimes do see people who seem to just like have totally nailed it. Like there's no doubt that they're.

doing the thing that they should be doing and they know it and they love it and they're and they're good at it and they're recognized for it and you know i i always think of stephen king like that guy clearly is just like doing the thing he absolutely knew from the get-go this is what i should be doing yeah and loves it and is recognized for it and is totally at ease and he i think sometimes there are bands i think of like

Spoon seems like a band that kind of just like that. Like they just like, you know, this is like what we love to do. Like we'll just keep doing it. We do it well enough that we'll sell enough records that we just keep doing it. It's like a lot of People who are great even at the thing that they do are still struggling with this. And I don't mean Tom York is like, oh, gosh, I wonder if I should be.

you know, training people to facilitate. He is. He's getting into the facilitation game. He's running design sprints at the moment. God, should I be running design sprints? In between every Radiohead album, he's fucking doing a... How might we session? Yeah, he's on the phone right now. Johnny Greenwood's like, okay, so like if we do three hours of design sprints per day and then three hours. Yeah.

Mate, where are we going to find space to put up the map? We're going to have to move the amps out of the way. But you know, there is like, there's clearly... They're not always crushing it either. No. And also, obviously, our people who are creative, by the way, one of the elements that usually comes along with it is neuroticism. and dissatisfaction and that's why you end up doing this stuff yeah you're driven to it by a little bit of neuroticism I've never met someone um

who is really not neurotic, really stable, really chill all the time, who I would say is creative. I think that's rare. Most of the time, the people I meet who make interesting stuff are... interact with who make interesting stuff are kind of often the more amazing this stuff is the more fucking weird the person is yeah and i wouldn't say happy i would say like obsessed or weird or neurotic yeah yeah which is fine definitely something too it's fine yeah i mean the dream world is to be

Stephen King and to feel like there's total clarity. This is the right thing for me. Yeah. This society loves it. You know, the audience loves it. I'm not making money. I don't have to worry about that. Like. I mean, he was, I finally finished on writing, which is like one of the best books ever. You recommended it to me about 7,000 years ago. Yeah, before it was written, actually. Yeah, exactly. My audio here soon might end because we've talked longer than expected. But the book is amazing.

But even him who had this clarity of thought ended up being a coke addict. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. That's true. He seems like that, like he's got it together now, but who knows? Yeah, coke painkillers and alcohol. Hardcore. That book is amazing. If you haven't, if anyone listening to this haven't read On Writing by Stephen King, by the way, also Stephen King's name is on this book here on Annihilation.

Did he give a little blurb for him? Yeah, he did. So you know it's good. You know it's good. That's the dream. That's when I will think. I did figure it out when I publish a fiction book. Or anything. If I do anything and then Stephen King writes a blurb for it. That would be cool. That would be it. Maybe Stephen King can write a blurb for one of my facilitation handouts. Or for your video game.

Yeah, exactly. No, I wanted to be on one of the booklets. That's very important to me. Jake, this was so cool. I have to go.

to a call now i said to go and do you have to go to the bathroom yeah i have to i do have to pee and then i have to do another i have to do webinar but that was actually really like it's been an hour Man, I know we didn't talk about, I thought we were going to have jokey times.

recommend, you know, books and we'll have to just do this again sometime. Maybe in Oslo. Maybe we'll, we'll talk in Oslo. I'll see you in Oslo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really cool. Yeah. And also I think like what I realized when I talked to you. And hopefully you have a similar feeling is that like, even if we don't talk to each other in a very, very long time, I think we can go from zero to a hundred within seconds.

And just go straight into like, here's my neurotic issues that I'm having right now. Like last time you were here when we were doing the click launch, you were hanging out at my place and we were talking about... kind of something related to the creativity topic and your your fiction and we talked it was it was like at a certain point it was like

Oh, it's like midnight now. How did that happen? It's like 5 a.m. Yeah. So yeah, I really, dude, I really love talking to you. Thanks for coming on the podcast. It's going to be cool to see people's reaction. It's kind of a random audience now.

all right dude uh thanks for having me on we'll uh yeah we'll do it again soon i'll see you in oslo in like two weeks it's really soon it's like actually really soon yeah i have to i was going i was trying to figure out if i could get mice talk move to a different day but by the way this i know this shouldn't be in the podcast but do you do you have like your comment do you have all that stuff sorted already

Like flights and accommodation? Because I haven't done anything yet. No. Okay, you haven't either. I'm just scheduling the flights. So I'm traveling with Flynn. Oh, cool. Great. Yeah. And he's going to join me. He's traveled a bunch when he was actually like, it's been quite a few years. So he kind of doesn't remember anything about Europe. So we're going to spend a couple of days in London before we come to Oslo. And I, uh,

Yeah, I don't know where I'm staying in Oslo. And actually, that was something I was puzzling over. So if you have a great idea. So what I understood is that the conference is putting us up in some nice hotel. Well, but I so I. I when I was negotiating with them, I said, don't put me up because I thought I was going to be bringing the whole family. Oh, I can be able to stay there anyway.

why don't you just give me the money for that but now i'm like oh now i don't know where to stay i also don't have the whole family i mean i messaged i haven't i don't i haven't heard back about it so maybe i'm just gonna fucking stay under your bed or something Yeah, I mean, that's what I was. Yeah, well, I'll see you in Oslo. And first time, is it the first time we're both speaking at a conference at the same time?

yeah i mean we've spoken at the same thing a lot of times but it was always our thing but not a conf yeah do you have the talk already ready dude i'm not doing it so um You're doing the flip chart. It's going to be me and a flip chart. And I've decided as an experiment, a creative experiment, I'm just going to not think about it until I'm on stage.

as as like an experiment to myself amazing that's and just see what comes out or terrible yeah well yeah i don't want to i mean i i told i that was part of the conversation i had with them i just said i don't want to do slides i don't want to have like a big prepared thing um if you can just get me this specifically large flip chart on a stage then and just give me as much time as you can

Then I'll do something. How much time will you have? I think an hour and a half. Oh, wow. Yeah. I asked for the maximum amount of time. I would happily do two hours or three hours. I've been doing this. I've been testing this out. at different things where it's just me and a flip chart it takes me a little to warm up like it takes maybe 10 minutes to actually find the topic but then like boom i get the topic and i can talk about it open-ended for like an hour and a half interesting

Well, I'm really looking forward to seeing it. I'm coming early so I can see, I want to see your talk. So no pressure. No pressure at all. I think my talk's on the Tuesday or something, isn't it? I should find out. I think it's Monday. Oh, really? Okay. Are you sure? Oh no, you're right. It is Monday. It is Monday. It absolutely is Monday. Yeah. Yeah. All right, man. Yeah. This is the best part of the podcast. People are running this logistics. Dude. Yeah. Have you, and there's no.

There's no episode of this podcast that is ever respectful to anybody listening to this podcast. So yeah, whenever I catch myself saying, oh, this is not the best episode to start with.

Then I realize actually there's no good episode to start with. So it's actually, it's the best one to start with. Well, can I give you one quick recommendation? I just saw this book that's on my, you may have seen this already. Hold on. It's just sprint. Oh, no, Jake, I never heard of this one. It's Sprint. Yes. Oh, I heard that one's great. It's this. Oh. Do you know this? It's called The Making of the Prince of Persia.

The making of Prince of Persia. It's beautiful looking. The original like on the Commodore 64 or something. Yeah. Yeah. Like Apple II. I think Apple II maybe. It looks, that book looks beautiful. It looks like you have loads of notes in there as well. The book itself is beautiful. It's done by Stripe Press, like Stripe the company. Speaking of like practicality offset. That's a cool, I love Stripe Press. It's such a cool thing.

This is a very beautiful book. I don't know if it shows up, but even the pixels are at a different... It's like a mosaic of texture. It's not just a solid... Anyway, but... The book is this guy, Jordan Mechner's journal, as he was creating the Prince of Persia game. And it has all his drawings. I need this immediately.

all the little like pixel art and he did this like he basically he did like motion capture like he found a way to do motion capture with like vhs tapes and like his brother like or something and uh And it's just it's very inspiring for creative projects. I mean, he's like, you know, he had just graduated from college. He has nothing else going on except but he one person like one person making a video game. It's so cool. It's cool. It's a.

It's interesting. This is an interesting thing. I'm going to get it. You see all the sticky notes? Yeah, that's a good sign. That's a really good sign. I'm going to get it. Also bought that book you recommended to me, The Dungeon Crawler. oh yeah dungeon crawler carl yeah it's in my i'm on book three it's like a series and i am i'm losing a little steam on book three it's like they've gotten down to this level and there's no don't tell me don't tell me don't okay yeah but yeah

I'm going to read it and I'll get back to you. But it is a couple of books behind. I've got to reread Annihilation again for some reason. that won't take long though that's a short read and then it's like very immersive i just reread it not that really okay next time we talk we'll talk about that stuff we need to let the audience go we need to let you talk to your webinar audience area x you know area x

I know. Something's going on there. You know what? I'll say one last thing. When they made that into a movie. Oh God. Yeah. I think this is one of the examples of if you take something very special and really, really true that came from someone's soul. And like this format really like the book format really brings that across and you feel it and then try to turn it into something else. It like lose it, like trying to make it real and trying to make it literal kills.

just kills these pieces of art um especially because alex garland like didn't read the book right he read it and then I don't even want to talk about it. It was a fucking terrible. And the worst thing is, so this has been my favorite book for such a long time. And when I recommend it to people, they're like, oh, I saw the movie. And I'm like, oh, God. Don't. I know. Wipe it out of your mind. I just recommended it to someone and I was like.

don't take the shortcut and try to watch the movie. Yes. Do not watch the movie. It's dog shit. It's fucking dog shit. Except they did an okay job with the end part, which I won't say anything about, but there's a part.

the part with the music at the end when there's sort of a there's something there where there's like there's one like 20 second scene where I'm like this is kind of like what the book feels like i don't think i got that far i think i stopped watching oh just just um google uh annihilation ending oh okay and they're like there's a famous scene uh there's

There's a famous piece of music from the scene at the end. You'll see that there's like quite a good scene there where it doesn't make up for how bad the rest of it is, but it's good. Well, on that.

It was such a pleasure chatting to you. Honestly, you're so enjoyable to talk to. So enjoyable. I would like to say the same. Enjoyment was had. All right, dude. You just have to hang up because this is all very manual. So see you later, dude. Bye. All right, everybody. That was Jake Knapp. I hope you guys enjoyed it. This says I have no more time left. I hope it's still recording. So, yeah, let me know, guys, if you enjoyed that episode.

With the amazing Jake. Isn't he such a fucking nice guy? He's such a great, I just absolutely love, love, love, love chatting to Jake. And for all of you who listened this far, I have no idea what I'm going to call this episode. I don't know how I'm going to draw you guys into this one. I'll think about it closer to when I press publish.

Thank you guys for actually commenting on the YouTube videos. I know not a lot of people watch that, but I appreciate the feedback. You know I only accept positive feedback. Sorry, I didn't do a drinks review this week. I don't think it will be every week, you know, it's unscheduled. So I hope you're having a great Tuesday. If you're listening to this on Tuesday, I hope you're having a great week and have a great week.

And thank you so much. Spread the word. If you know someone who might like this podcast, send it to them. We need more people joining the Practicality Offset. That's all I have to say.