Casting Director Bonnie Zane

Thank you so much for making time. I really appreciate it.

Of course.

Um, hopefully you've had a great fest. This is Les from the TV dudes. Could I have you introduce yourself?

I am Bonnie Zane. I'm a casting director.

So I'm, I'm always interested to talk to folks who have, um, jobs that like I didn't know were jobs when I was a kid. I assume you probably didn't know were jobs when you were a kid. Can you talk about your path to finding casting, directing or or casting as your sweet spot? For for

Yeah. It was, um, I, I went to tele, you know, school with television and film, and I decided I'm gonna move to la I just moved to LA cold friend of mine from high school. I moved into his apartment and I thought I would, I, I really wanted to be a writer. Mm-Hmm. . I thought I'd be a writer. Never ever did that come to fruition. But I ended up my first years, it was the late eighties working as a production assistant runner on all these music videos. So it was the big, it was the heyday of MTV music videos. I ended up working for MTV and then I kind of fell into this role of production assistant moved up to being an AD. And I was just so not satisfied. Something, I don't know, I just was always searching. My sister who's a few years older, I convinced her to move out from New York and she fell into casting randomly and ended up with the greatest mentor ever. So I always would love her stories. We know we were together all the time. And she would say, I'm doing this now. And then I would randomly make lists for her. I would say, here's my ideas. And I would sit around and make lists and she says, you have an act for this. So I was unemployed, as you usually are when you're freelance. And she told me about a job opening as a receptionist in a casting office. And she goes, I'll call them for you. And I went and they said, we'll hire you for three weeks to answer the phones. And it was this casting office that was so busy. It was Med Lieberman and Mark Hirschfeld who were kind of like the casting mavens of the time. And still. And, um, I ended up staying for three years and I got a crash course and I found out I had a knack for it because it really isn't something you study. Now colleges are offering courses and it's certain film schools are offering, like, specialized courses. But it really is a gut, it's an instinctive business. It's less, I mean, now there's of course a lot of the technical stuff which you have to learn and the political stuff. But I had an knack for it and I loved it. And Mark Hirschfeld was my mentor and raised me in the business. And a few years later I moved on on my own. And I got very lucky very quickly and had lots of, lots and lots of shows and lots of things going. And my life turned around from being a freelancer to working. Yeah. Very steadily. And then it grew from there. I partnered with, um, with someone I was an assistant with, with Gail Pillsbury. We were together for over 20 years. We unpartnered because of the pandemic as we had to. Um, but you know, I'm, I've gone through all the changes in casting and now it's more changes.

Well, that was, uh, I'm, I'm sure you had to have felt the shift towards self tape, uh, over pandemic.

We were self taping long before the pandemic. We know that was already a thing. We, Gail and I were very much, because what started happening long before pandemic was producers were spending less time in casting sessions and more time in the writer's rooms. Okay. Or abroad, like we would, we had shows in Atlanta, Toronto, Miami, we had shows that were filming elsewhere. So we would always have to send tapes. So it came down to, it doesn't matter where the actor is because we're sending one link and they're not going to care where those links is, where we know where we compile it from. So we started self tapes pretty early and just

'cause it broadens your pool.

Yeah. It broadened our pool. We didn't have, I didn't have someone taping actors in New York, so they, people would go to their agents, whatever. And so it was always very useful. And also because you, you're able to, like we were, Gail and I were very hands on, so we would get a tape from some, like, you know, someone sent us a tape from Milwaukee Mm-Hmm. , can we do a phone call or can we do a Skype or whatever it was back then? Mm-Hmm. . And we would give, give notes and talk about it, and then they would retape. So we were kind of on the early front of Mm-Hmm. , you know, of the self tape thing. The pandemic of course changed everything. Um, I'm a big, I, I have actually done a lot of interviews about self-tapes and stuff, and I think it's gone. There's a, an extreme to it because for me, and I say this when I request self-tapes, I don't need professional quality. Put your iPhone on horizontal. Have a good reader off camera. That's the most important thing for me. That's the key. And make yourself look good. Good lighting. Mm-Hmm. And that's enough. 'cause it became like a big thing. Like we're spending so much money on hair and makeup and my gosh, we don't need that. Yeah. So, yeah, the self tape thing, I, I mean, it, it was, it's a, it's controversial. It's an endless discussion. And it was part of the SAG negotiations. Mm-Hmm. , you know, but the casting side of it is, we see, I would say more than 50% more talent because of self tapes. Yeah. And I watch everything

I would think a huge part of your, your job would be, maybe not an argument, but the producer, the director, whoever's written it, might have a description or an idea, their first blush of what the character ought to be. And you're like, man, I've got, I've got somebody in my head that I know. I've seen them do this weird play. I've seen them do this odd thing. I know they're perfect. But, uh, folks, I was talking to you yesterday that, you know, you mean Malcolm in the middle's dad should be the drug dealer. Like that, that kind of moment. Have you had, um, a moment where you are, when you look back and you're thrilled that you went to bat for someone who was not, that was not the, the choice at this time?

Oh yeah. Yeah. We call it healthy debates as, as opposed to like knock down drag out fights with our show runners.

I would think that that's, that's really the goal of it. It's, you're not arguing with them. You're not trying to do something different with your character. Yeah. You're all going to the same mountaintop

Yeah. Every relationship with a showrunner or, or tv you know, creator or producer, because I work primarily in tv. So the showrunners are the ones that have the say as opposed to in films it would be the director. Um, which is another kind of healthy debate you would have. But there's, the reason they hire us is because of that. It's, you know, when you're, when you hire a casting director, say for a pilot, you are gonna spend every day with this person in a room. For the most part. So you really have to have a good rapport, which is why so many people have repeat producers. Mm-Hmm. , like, I've worked with the same producers over the years. Um, so there's a trust now when you start working with someone new, you have to kind of build that trust and, and figure out, learn

That shorthand.

Learn the shorthand, learn the way in. You don't wanna, like, there's certain producers, most producers don't wanna be not bullied, you know, pushed into an idea. Right. So you find the way to massage it gently to get them to, to notice why this is the right person for the job. And it could be something. So like I, I was doing the Santa Clauses for Disney plus. And everyone's a kid, you know, I don't know if you know, all the elves in the North Pole are actually children. Oh my gosh. So we were casting all children. So right before the Santa Clauss started, I was watching the miniseries station 19 on Max. And I loved it. It was so visually just magnificent. But I also was mesmerized by the young girl. I called the casting director the day I watched the first episode. I said, where did you find her? And literally like, the day I, and I actually ran into her in a parking lot. I'm like, stop and tell me where you found this girl. She goes, I found her on Broadway and Ferryman. And I said, she is remarkable. I started casting the Santa Claus as we need to find the head elf who is gonna be like, um, Bebe Neuwirth in Cheers. Okay. Okay. That officious, you know, Lilith character. And I said to my producers before we even started, I called, um, I called Matilda's agent and I said, I'm obsessed with Matilda, and is she available for the span of time? Can you send me some of her Station 19 stuff? They sent it over. I sent it to my producer, my director. I said, you gotta trust me on this. And they said, well, she doesn't really have a lot of lightness. She doesn't. And I said, well, it's a post-apocalyptic thing we're watching. Right. I said, but she is, there's something going on here. This girl is, I can't take my eyes off of her. And

In 30 years, you're be thrilled you cast her for this.

Yeah. We couldn't get her the second season 'cause she was so busy. But she, and then they, they met her, then she read, she auditioned and we were doing all over Zoom and she was in New York, and it was Jason Weiner, my director, and Jack Burnett was the showrunner. And Jason Weiner said, um, this is where it came up. She goes, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna send her Frasier tapes. 'cause this character is gonna be Lilith. That's a they, because it wasn't exactly as written, but it became so evident. Right, right.

So yeah, just send Lilith. Yeah.

And she watched some episodes of Frazier with her parents. She's a genius. The girl's a genius. And then the second season, of course, she was doing Gilded Age. She was doing if it, you know, so like, you know, we had her for a few episodes. But it's things like that where you educate and gently massage it.

Chucky is one of the most fun things I've gotten to watch in the last couple of years. Right. I, uh, I will die on the hill that, that the Chucky franchise is the best horror franchise in terms of staying true and not having a flop movie. Same as nobody wants to hear me that The Planet of the Apes is the best overall franchise going.

I agree, my sister cast the movies.

There's just no bad one of those really. Even the old ones.

Even the old ones are brilliant.

So. The "Dourif" of it all. Watching Fiona be her dad. It's unreal.

It's Don Mancini, that's Don Mancini. Don Mancini the creator. Mm-Hmm. . That was all him. And he said to us, he goes, trust me.

I get chills thinking about it.

It's wild. He says, Fiona is gonna play Charles Lee Ray, and we're going, what? And it was the weirdest thing ever. And then I saw it, I go, . He goes, look at Fiona. She looks just like, like, like Brad. And I go, I'm not seeing it all, but this is Don's world. Mm-Hmm. This is all he does. And he's so brilliant. And in the talking to Don Mancini, that's someone who you should just have a chat with because everything, the way he, he's, he's, he lives this in such a beautiful, passionate, articulate manner. And I adore Don and I would do anything for him. And that was, yeah. When he did that, I said, okay, we'll, we'll make that happen.

When I, when I look back at, at shows that you've cast at Sports Night and like things that I watched obsessively in, in college.

Excuse me, you're a baby.

Gosh, I I actually feel old most of the time, so that's great. To me, there's no one else for these roles.

Don't you love that?

It seems inevitable that, uh, uh, Tom

Tom Kavanaugh Yeah.

...would be Ed. It feels inevitable from my end. Right. Um,

But it's not, but it's not, it's not.

What does it feel like to have that moment where, you know, you've, you've read an amazingly drawn character on the page, but then you watch them breathe in their first breath because now it's a person. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Well, I'll tell you, we could talk about Ed a little bit if you'd like, because it was one of my favorite experiences.

I got to meet Justin Long a few years ago, and

Did he ever tell you the story? So it, well, the Tom Kavanaugh thing, first of all is Tom was like the eighth person to read with Gail, who I just was with, who's my associate. We were on working on a Sunday. We were using my sister's office because she had space that we could use. And we were taping him. He walks in and there was, I remember there were sirens going down Wilshire Boulevard, and we kept, had to keep stopping, but I had vaguely known him. He had done one show before he was this Canadian actor, like

Love Monkey or

It was after, no, it was, um, the Nine Lives of Jackie or something or other didn't go. And, um, he read and she and I looked at each other. We were like, the fuck just happened? We were just, that was it. That's

Such a magical show. It would take a really particular

Yes. And he just found every nuance. So that was the day where you take your tapes and you, you burn them onto a, DVD and then you FedEx them to the producers in New York. The producers who had never met me, they hired me on a phone call. This was 1997. And, um, I said, this is the guy, and I knew it, but hundreds of guys right after him. Right. And we come down to the testing stage. So that was like November, January comes around, we come down to, we're gonna go, it was ccb A CBS pilot at the time, which is a whole other story. So CBS had the pilot and we, and we, she said, Zane, and then, um, we go, we get the guys who are gonna te who are gonna test. So it was, it was Tom and it was, I think three other guys were testing for the role, which testing means they're gonna go in live. Read with me opposite them in a little room with all the CBS executives and the producers. So the producers were flying in the next morning. I was gonna meet them for the first time in person. And the night before, or the day before, I had all four guys come into my office for an hour and just get comfortable with the read, get ready, and, you know, rehearse. Tom was last and we ended up spending hours together, just hours because a, we, we clicked so well. But, um, he's just such an interesting actor. So Rob and John arrived the next day and we all sat around the conference room and kind of strategized how we're gonna do the day. And I, and I gave them my testing strategy, like who goes first, second, third, fourth, and what we do. And then we, we had the scenes picked out and one of the scenes was Ed's wife leaving him. Which I don't think ever made it into the pilot. And, and Tom said to me when we were getting ready to go into the test, he goes, do me a favor. When she starts to cry in the scene, just put your head down. That would be my, my my sign, my note. Yeah. My signal to how I'm gonna react. And I said, okay. So we practiced it and I put my head down and, and we get in the room and we start doing the scene. And he's so brilliantly perfect for the role. I'm just watching. And then we get to the scene about the breakup scene, and I start sobbing in the scene. I'm reading with him off camera, sitting here in my seat. I'm just crying. And the two of us walk out and we, we walk out, we leave them, he finishes and we're like hugging in the, in the waiting area. I'm like, and he goes, that was, I said, you couldn't have done better. We go into wait on the networks decision. And I said to Rob and John, if Tom Kavanaugh doesn't get this role, they have no intention of making your pilot. They don't wanna see it succeed. That if they don't, they're not serious about this. Because there's no one else. So he got the part. And, um, it was all, you know, we built the pilot from there, and it was brilliant. I went to New York to do the smaller roles and I was working out of the late show offices. And my friend of mine, who's an agent at Innovative called me and said, I just have a kid who just graduated Vassar, you gotta meet him, work with him a little bit. He's, I think this kid is gonna be a great actor. He hasn't never done anything. He's not in sag. So in walks Justin Long, and he and I, of course was like I said, this is a young Tom Kavanaugh. I felt this like, and we clicked and I said, okay, here's what's gonna happen. You're gonna walk in, there's gonna be two producers, there's gonna be a director. I'm gonna sit here, you're gonna stand there, we're gonna do, so he walks in to his audition for them and he says, could you, I'm just gonna turn around for one second and then we'll start. And then he goes, then we'll get started. I said, okay. So I think the first line was mine. He turns around. When he turns back to me, he's literally a different person. It was as if there had been like some sort of CGI, he was Warren. And he did it, and it was remarkable. And he finishes, they're silent, they're in shock. And he says, is there anything else you need? And I go, no . And that was it. That's great. And so anyhow, he was, you know, one of the great fines, obviously flash forward only a few, maybe a month. My sister, who's also a casting director, is in the middle of casting Galaxy Quest and is stuck on a roll. And I said to her, I have your kid. He has, doesn't have any tape though. And he's in the middle of shooting a pilot for us. So, but you gotta trust me. So she called Rob Burnett, my creator, and he sent her and Dean Pariso some dailies. And that's how, that's great. He got that. That's great. And that, and so he calls us the, the Zane Sisters is, you know, his very godmothers. That's great. But he's just, I, he's so close to my heart. Him and Tom both. And that was just, that's one of those casting stories where you're like, oh, my job is so great. I love my job.

I've only gotten interviewed Justin once, but it was real early in the morning and he was very nice. I I definitely add that to his point total, he was very gracious for, for how uncaffeinated we both were at that moment.

He's so, he's so funny. During the pandemic, I was trying to get a Ed reunion going as a table, as a read. And I couldn't make it happen. I tried desperately to make it happen, but he, I, I'm sitting like, you know, watching Ari Melbourne as usual, and my FaceTime goes off randomly and it's dumb Kavanaugh. He's like, I'm on the road to Massachusetts. He, so he FaceTimed in his car as he is driving and we're just reminiscing about things. He was like, wish you could get this together. And we had a couple of, we had a, we had a holdout. So it was, but it was, um, it was great. He's just such a great good. He called me from, he was filming, um, what was that horror movie? Um, uh, uh, barbarian. Barbarian. Oh God. He called, he, I get a text message from him. He goes, do you know Zach Cregger? I said, yeah, sure. He goes, he's directing a movie I'm doing right now. I'm in Romania. I said, oh, cool. He goes, do you know there's a character named Bonnie Zane? And I go, what do you mean? He goes, the character's body, Zane. And I asked why. He goes, I just think she has a cool name.

Crazy. How many times has that happened? I mean, Rachel...

Well, she was, she was named after me. I

I was gonna ask is like, is that

That was not accidental. It was Rachel Lane and they changed it to Rachel Zane. So Megan and I have this joke, like I said to Megan when she got engaged, this is the first Zane who's gonna be Royal .

Okay listeners. Bonnie and I were interrupted for a moment here, but then she asked if I'd like to hear her favorite casting story, which is about casting Sports Night. Of course I said yes, and we turned the recorder back on. So, here we go.

So, um, this is Aaron Sorkin's first television series. You know, he was kind of new to it, but it was really, you know, it was, it was a, a lot of work doing sports night. And these are really, these are big roles to fill. But when I read the script, um, at that point, my, then my, my partner, my former partner, Gail Pillsbury was the executive at Imagine. And she called me, she goes, I got a script for you. And I read it and I called her. I go, this is Peter Kraus. And she says, oh my God, you're right. I said, let's get Peter Kra in this role. And this was before I even started the casting process. So we start the casting process. I immediately wanna schedule Peter Kraus to come in for the role. He comes in, he was working, he was doing a play down in Venice. Comes in, his hair is like shoulder length, full beard, like Scruffy beard. Um,

Not the ESPN guy we're looking for here...

Birkenstocks, Khakis... looks like he literally just rolled outta bed . And I'm going, okay. And Aaron Sorkin read with everyone. So he's reading opposite Peter. And Peter's like, wonderful. He's a great actor. But you're looking at this guy that looks like you're having to look through it to see him. Yes, yes. Which not everyone can do. And that was that. And he said, and he was, he was thanked and dismissed. And we kept moving on and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of guys written red. I mean, probably close to 300 guys read for that role. A few weeks in when I'm realizing I'm not making any dense in this character. I'm going, I'm not wrong. I know I'm not wrong. I called Peter KO's manager, and this was back in the nineties. So, you know, this is before inter, you know, we weren't like, we weren't reading scripts online. We had our right.

There's no "Zoom calling" him.

There's nothing. And I said, is Peter done with this play? And she says, he is. I said, do me a favor. Ask him if he would shave and cut his hair and ask him to grab his script and call me. And I, he, my phone. And Peter and I were friendly. He calls me, I said, get the script out. And we sit down and we read the script out loud to each other. The scenes and everything. And we start talking about what I've been seeing in the room and what I know Aaron Sorkin and Tommy Sch Shami are looking for. And I said to him, do me a favor, just shave. Cut your hair, put on a suit and dress shoes. Come back in and say, nice to meet you. Don't say nice to see you again. And I'm not putting callback on your sheet. He walked in and that's how it, that's how he did it.

That's great. "No, no... you never met me before..."

. It was just like this. 'cause we had seen so many people that it was just like, oh gosh.

After 300 others...

So, um, that was it.

That's so great. Yeah. And he's so great in that role. He and Josh and Robert

Just, they're all, it's, that cast was phenomenal.

That was, uh, appointment viewing for me in my dorm room. That was a, that was a, like, people walking in and like, shut up, dude. Like, I can't tape this real well. Like, it's gonna be on a VHS you know, like, yeah. This is the hour. This is on for me. Get out of my room.

I'll tell you a funny story also related to Sports Night. I love that cast so much. And I actually had my office in there on near their stages. So I was kind of very much in the day to day, um, I was having a conversation with Josh Molina. We were talking and I said, I can't believe that that Josh, that Josh is only 27 years old. And he goes, Josh, Charles. And he goes, he's not. I said, no, he's 27 years old. And he goes, no, he's not. And I said, he goes, prove it. I said, prove it. I, okay. I, I, I think I had his paperwork somewhere, but it was like this weird thing. I couldn't prove it. For whatever reason, I couldn't get it. I couldn't figure it out. And I was like, I I don't know why I can't prove where I can't get identify. I don't know if you know what Josh Molina being famous for pranks.

No.

This was a prank. They pulled on me and I never knew it was a prank. Oh my God. It was, it, he, it was going to, I don't know if it made the, the um, the comment, the commentary on the, on the DVD. But that was one of the prank, they pulled the prank company me. So now every year when it's Josh Charles's birthday, I'm like, I'll, I'll reach out. I was like, how old are you? .

That's great. Except said you're trying to math out how old Josh Charles might be...

It was so weird. And I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I couldn't prove his age.

Had no idea that you're just being messed with.

. I was being completely pranked. That was a great show.

Thank you so much for chatting with me about it all. Uh, you, you've cast so many shows I love, they wouldn't be the shows that I loved, uh, if you hadn't done your job so well. I really appreciate it. Thank you for your time this morning. OUTRO MUSIC