We had a lot of sheep, and lambing season was always hectic and fun. We got to sleep in the barn and we wake up every two hours and go check to see if any new lambs were born, and some of the lambs would need help. And it's so nuts how the mom's instincts are. We had some lambs that were so weak that they would literally almost discard it, like not want to feed it.
Did you have a lamb that was your favorite.
Yeah, she was so tiny. I mean, gosh, maybe two pounds. She was discarded by her at first. She wouldn't even suck from the bottle, just looked sickly looking. The mom would not pay any attention to her, and I think pretty much everybody had given up on her. Nobody thought I should name her. Everyone thought she was going to die. And there was something in me that was like, no, she is going to live, and I'm going to be the one to help her live her life. I fought
so much for this little you. I brought her home and there was like a cardboard box that I put like tons of blankets in and kept warming her up and snuggling her, feeding her. She started thriving. I named her Endurance. I was so proud of her that she did it, and couldn't think of a better name that she endured through it all, such a beautiful lamb. She finally was big enough to then go back out to pasture and live with the other sheep, and she was
doing great out there. Every time she saw me, she'd come running.
Did you feel like she kind of loved you the most because you had.
Oh for sure? Yeah? Yeah, I definitely felt like I was her favorite. One day I was done school from the morning. I went around lunchtime to check on the sheet. I rode my bike up there and I walked to the back of the pasture and there was like a barn and then a gate. It was like this orangish rusty gate. I think somebody was supposed to like tie
the gate. Somehow it had gotten loose, and I saw the gate fall in, and of all the sheep for it to land on, it landed on Endurance, right on her stomach, and it was all sunken in and killed her. I started crying, screaming, yelling for my dad, and I remember just screaming and Durns is dead, and Durns is dead. A gate fell on her. I mean, I was sobbing. I had never experienced a loss like this before, Like she was like my child. We dug a hole by
a tree and we buried her. I remember thinking how unfair it was that, like, out of all the sheep, that she had to be the one. I just felt it cruel that she was the one that had to be taken.
From Rocco, Punch and dieheard podcasts This is the Turning River Road, I America Lance and I'm Alan Lance Lesser, Part three, The Maidens. So the day that he made some kind of announcement about first borns, do you recall where you were?
It was in the chapel at the Shepherd's camp.
The day felt like any other. All one hundred and fifty members of River Road gathered at the Apple for fellowship. Lindsay remembers the light streaming in as Victor delivered his sermon, But some details feel fuzzy now.
Maybe I wasn't even really paying attention, you know, because I was still a thirteen year old kid.
Yeah, you're maybe even daydreaming, zoning.
Yeah, yeah, I tried to look forward to my notes. I can't find the teaching. But he was talking about firstborns, and in the Old Testament, you know, firstborn's being a sacrifice to God.
Victor started listing several names of girls in the room, all first born and all daughters of leadership. Some of them girls Lindsay looked up to. Then Lindsay heard it her name, he was talking to her. By the end, there were ten names of girls aged twelve to twenty three. Victor explained that these ten had a new role to play. They would leave their families in the satellite properties. They would live together in the four plex near Victor, at the heart the Shepherd's Camp.
It was just like, do you want to, you know, help serve in the church and you know, dedicate your life to serving in the church. And what a blessing that would be, What an honor for our family that would be.
These ten girls would be kind of like nuns. They'd live together like sisters. Eventually he would call them by a special name, the name the whole camp would adopt for them. They would be known as the Maidens.
I thought it would be kind of like a long sleepaway camp, which I one time I was allowed to go to a sleep away camp for like a weekend, and I remember it was so much fun. Like we'd be out at night knocking on like the boys cabins and then running back to ours, and they had like a luau one night for like the last night. I think it was so I not that we'd be knocking on boys cabins at the camp, but I thought it
was going to be fun. I don't think anyone told me like the severity of what was going to happen.
Lindsay packed a bag just toiletries a few outfits. She couldn't wait till about her summer camp dreams. Not only would she be bunking with the cool girls, but also with her best friend Jessana Jess for short, who had been selected to Lindsay and Jess were the youngest of the girls handpicked by Victor, twelve and thirteen years old. Lindsay had liked Jess from the moment she met her, back when she first visited Minnesota. Jess had a huge smile and a huge laugh and fiery red hair.
When she would smile, it was like all her teeth would show. You know those people that just have that like almost like Julia Roberts, you know that like just million dollar, gorgeous smile. She came off as just like a tough kid. She wasn't going to be messed with. I wouldn't say it was this calm, sweet It was more this like fierce fun storm that you wanted to jump in and be a part of and just get swept up in the swirl of it all.
Everyone in River Road Fellowship, even the kids, were required to pitch in to keep the community functioning. Hard work was a given, and with Jess it was fun. Bailing hay was fun.
It was just the square bal so you'd pick it up out of the field and throw it onto the truck. And I loved that kind of stuff. I think even now, hard work like that is just in my blood. I love doing the physical, hard labor. And I remember just and I just like laughing and not really goofing off because we were taking it seriously. You were hot and sweaty, and the straw and the hay like was just sticking to you everywhere. But it was just one of those fun,
hard days together. She was like the ying to my Yang at that time, because I was kind of the same way, always looking for the next fun thing to do, the imaginative you know what can we create, and are we living on a homestead or are we pirates in a desert? You know, like just like all that stuff. So I don't even know if pirates in a desert? What was that?
But you know what I mean.
Yeah, Lindsay's mind went wild with excitement anytime she thought about bunking with Jess all summer. But what they didn't know was that for maidens, make believe wasn't allowed. They were there for another purpose, not to play.
I do remember a couple days before my parents dropped me off, my dad being more sad than my mom. I think she probably was a little sad, but I think she was more excited for me. But I remember my dad being so sad and I just didn't get it. I was like, Dad, like I don't understand why you're so sad. And I remember them asking me like are you sure this is what you want to do? Like are you sure you want to make this commitment? And I was just like yeah, Like I'm going to go
spend the summer with my friends. I'll be back. It's really no big deal. Have you ever seen a tear bottle? Like an alabaster tearbottle? He had it was one that had like a top to it, and it was really pretty colored. It was gray and purple and really swirly.
Tear bottles or tearcatchers are an ancient tradition symbols of mourning. Supposedly, someone in grief or under pressure would collect their tears in a bottle a way to remember their pain. Victor and his wife had given Lindsay's dad this tear bottle. It was connected to a Bible verse that Victor loved to quote. They that's so in tears shall reap in joy. Victor said that all the time he loved to talk about the joy of tears.
My dad gave that to me before I left, and I remember him talking about that even though he was sad, now he would be happy for me. I was just like, okay, Dad, like thank you. You know, I'll hold on to it. And I did. I put it on, you know, my portion of the dresser that I had. I don't know. I just did not really understand what I was walking into. I'm sure they didn't know everything, you know, how terrible it was going to get.
Throughout her time in River Road Fellowship, Lindsay would be asked about her commitment. Was she willing to give herself to God to the church at face value? Each time she was asked, it looked like a choice she had the freedom to make, to move forward or reject. But each choice was also interwoven with the lessons Victor taught, and he taught about choice often. He liked to use a story from the Bible about a woman named Ruth.
From the Book of Ruth, which is in the Old Testament.
The part Victor liked best was when Ruth is a young woman. She's struggling to survive after the death of her husband. So one night she goes to the home of a rich man named Boaz. While Boas sleeps, she lies at the foot of his bed and takes the blanket off his feet. When he wakes up, Boaz picks up this blanket and covers Ruth with it. Victor explained, covering her meant Boaz was agreeing to take her as a wife, but also covering her spiritually, leading her, taking care of her.
And then she ended up sleeping with him and then having a son who on to be in the line of Jesus Christ. So there were these teachings of you know, this damsel asking this godly man to cover her.
In this story, Ruth took the initiative. She asked Boaz to cover her. She made the choice.
He talked about how Ruth came softly to Boas, how she claved to Boas, and when you cleave to someone, it means to join yourself. He talked about how Ruth always stayed under subjection to Boaz, that Boaz was a man of God, that she was faithful to him, and that Ruth is a great example to the woman in not being anxious and being patient. He said, Ruth is very diligent and obedient from this time on. She lives
in a subjection. She lives in the fear of God, and that he said that Jesus Christ is looking for a virgin.
Lindsay wrote notes about all of this in a notebook, diligently quoting Victor so she wouldn't forget. At thirteen. Some of it went over her head, but some parts nestled deep inside her. The Song of Solomon preached during Victor's Summer of Love Ruth and Boaz. Victor's selected teachings seemed to have one dominant theme, romantic love between a man and a woman. Where the man is a stand in for God. She took this teaching with her as she moved to the shepherd's camp. One day early in the summer,
Lindsay's parents dropped her off. Two people were there to greet her, one of the maidens and a woman named Jan. Jan was Victor's right hand who visited Lindsay's home in Pennsylvania. When they first met, the one with a hard looking face, I was a.
Little standoffish, just because of the authority. You know, she was in charge. She had been Victor's assistant all those years.
At this point, Lindsay only knew Jan peripherally from playing with Jan's daughter or seeing her at meetings. But now Jan would take on a new role in her life, a role to all the maidens.
I would say she was almost placed as like the mother, the mother over all of us.
If they needed something like clothes or health products, they were told they could go to her.
I don't think I really opened up to her very much. She always seemed a little scary to me, really, not a warm and fuzzy person. Is almost like a pioneer woman, you know, just that hardness to her.
Jan would start to have a lot of control over Lindsay's life. She and the church elders designed the maiden schedules, assigned duties, and shaped their day to day. So on the day of Linday's arrival, Jan took Linday's parents to talk with Victor while one of the maidens brought Lindsay to the Fourplex to unpack. The four Plex was a large building with several apartment like units. Lindsay would live there with the nine other maidens. Eventually the Fourplex became
known as Alamoth. Alamoth means maidens, and Hebrew, the maidens themselves were called Alamoth too. In the beginning, life as a maiden seemed to meet Linda's summer camp expectations.
I remember the first week, we had this huge almost like a flatbed trailer, like a really big one that you could stack hay on or whatever. We put that out in the field and loaded up with blankets and we all slept out under the stars there with Victor. Mosquitoes were really bad, but then like you could just hear, you know, like the wind wrestling people giggling. The sky were so clear. I was just like wow, like sleeping on other stars. You know, my friends are here. This
is great. There were loons that lived on the lake in the morning, like we hear the loons, it's like anyone just echo off the lake. What a beautiful sound that became like our bird. The maidens, it seemed like wherever we went there were loons there. The loons were like the maidens thing with Victor. It was just something that always reminded us of him and us.
At the Shepherd's camp, Lindsay and the nine other maidens got to work. Their days were full of chores and anything to keep the camp running. They made food in the dining hall, gardened and cleaned. As always, hard work was expected, but gradually a starker line was drawn between the outside world and Victor and his maidens. A few weeks in, Victor started talking about the role of women in the community. It started one day in the dining
hall when a ups man dropped something off. Jess, Lindsay's friend with red hair, and another maiden turned their heads to see who was there. Victor did not like this. He said their eyes were for Christ. They shouldn't concern themselves with the outside world. From that moment, don he said, they were not allowed to look a man in the eyes other than Victor. He called it dove's eyes, a reference from the Song of Solomon.
So literally, if you were a man, I would have to be talking like this to you the whole time. Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I mean you're it's like you have to you're talking to me, but you have to keep your eyes down a little to the side, to the side and down so that you're not actually looking at the man.
Yep, and we should only look at Victor in the eyes. How did you react to that? I thought it was so weird. I felt so awkward, and I mean I was going through my awkward phase. I hadn't gotten my period yet, so I hadn't even gone through like hormones, but I, you know, was starting to develop little buds there, little breasts, probably my hormones were starting to take off. And I was just in that awkward teenager stage, you know, like thirteen, probably tripping all the time and very like
I was very outgoing as like a younger person. But then I just kind of got gangly and I don't know, just awkward, and so I felt so awkward even more. I was like what how I'm like, I'm looking at the ground as I'm talking to this person, like that makes me feel so weird, you know, almost like so self conscious, like, oh my gosh, if I lift my head up a little, am I going to get in trouble? If I accidentally look at this person in the eyes?
Am I going to get in trouble? You know? Is Victor going to see me and he's gonna like yell at me. Yeah. It was a very uncomfortable and awkward.
It's like enforced awkwardness.
Yeah. He also did something pretty early on to where if the maidens were singing to the church or even to just like the people at the dining hall, instead of looking out at them and singing, we had to sit in a half circle and look at each other and sing. Even though we were singing to them, we were not allowed to look at the people we were singing to.
It's really just constantly enforcing this insolarty where your world is getting smaller and smaller and smaller.
Yeah. I got really shy during that time. I was a very outgoing kid, loved to perform, made people laugh. I remember getting very very shy during that time. I remember he was calling me miss Mouseie because I was just so quiet I felt like I had to watch my every move.
Lindsey remembers one time she and one of the older maidens went to the lodge. The lodge was where Victor lived ever since he took off his wedding ring and moved away from his wife and sons. The maidens were set up to be Victor's caretakers now, and that meant more intimate responsibilities.
And we went to rub Victor's feet, and so we went back into his bedroom and he was sitting there and we were rubbing his feet, and I was being so shy, so quiet. Oh, I just didn't know how to act around him. He made me really nervous. And you know, I saw some of the other maidens really show him care, and you know, you could just tell they really loved him and wanted to help him.
While Lindsay and the other maiden rubbed his feet, Victor told them a Bible story with a moral about showing your fervor and faith. He was clearly pointing at Lindsay's shyness. Lindsay often felt confused during conversations like this. They challenged her instinct, and her instinct now was to crawl inside herself. She waited and watched, afraid to be called on who was she meant to be? Now? The expectations felt heavy,
yet fuzzy. Summer was coming to an end. They were coming up on the Feast of Tabernacles, the big celebration of the season's harvest. When one day Lindsay was gardening with jan.
I remember she had those knee pads you could wear that she was sitting on, like around the flowers or perennials. I was just sitting there on my knees next to her, you know, just digging around, just talking, and then boom. I was talking about the visa Tabernacles coming up, and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm really excited, you know, to see my parents and you know, go home and start school again. And she was like, oh, like no, Lindsay, like you're here to stay. You're a maiden now you're
going to be staying here. And I was like wait what. She's like, yeah, like your mom will send over all your winter clothes and anything you'll need. You committed your life. You're staying with the maidens. And I was like what, Like, I'm not going home. I was like wait, like what did I agree to? Because I don't ever remember making a commitment like this. But I also know that I felt too maybe scared to speak up and question it or ask anyone about it. I did not know that
it was for life. That was a shock.
Lindsay felt this immense sadness inside. But Lindsay just kept digging on her knees next to Jan.
It was almost felt like it was too late, like I couldn't I felt trapped. I couldn't do anything about it, you know, like this was my life. I remember being like a cool night. It was dark out, and Victor called me up to the lodge that's where he lived. I walked in and I was still so nervous to be I guess around him by myself. I just felt very awkward, not really sure how to act. And I sat down on this He had a leather couch there that faced a fireplace and the fire was going, and
then he sat in a chair. He asked how I liked being here, you know, and I said it was going fine, and you know, it was like small talk. And then he asked me if I had ever masturbated before, and I had no idea what that we was even meant. My mom had never had these kinds of talks with me. I was only thirteen and pretty sheltered from a lot of things, and he did not believe me. And I remember I kept telling him like, I don't know what it means, I'm telling you the truth, and he kept
thinking I was lying. He got really really mad at me. You know, I had seen Victor get really mad at people, spit in their faces and yell at them at meal times, but it had never happened to me yet. And seeing his rage like that, I didn't want to make him mad, and I didn't know how to fix it. He slapped me across the face and yelled at me to get out of the lodge. I was sitting on the couch,
that leather couch. When I got up to even run out, I mean, it literally felt like band aids ripping off of my legs because I had sweated so much on the couch that it was sticking to the leather, and I felt like I was just ripping band aids off of my skin. When I ran out of there, my tears felt like boiling water coming out of my eyes.
They were just felt so hot. And I ran down the hill and over that bridge that connected the pond to the lake and was running straight towards Alamoth and it was so dark.
I don't know.
I remember just almost crying out to my parents, who weren't there. Why God, why are you leaving me here? Like I missed my mom and dad? Why can't I go home? I just curled up on my bed and like a ball. I don't think. I put the covers on and just cried. It wasn't too long after, maybe like thirty minutes, maybe a little bit more. One of the maidens came and said that Victor was on the phone for me. There was one phone in alum Off in the four plex that we could use, and he
asked me to come back to the lodge. My heart was beating out of my chest. I felt like I could hear it, that's how loud it was. I went back to the lodge and sat down in his hole. His whole demeanor had changed. He started talking to me very lovingly. He was talking about how much God loved me and how special I was and how God had
chosen me. And he said that one way for him to show me how much God loved me was to have sex with me, and that even though he would have sex with me, I would still be able to remain a virgin spiritually. And he referenced Jesus Christ and how he had Mary Magdalene and the Apostle Paul, how he had Phoebe and probably other women. And I remember it vividly, like I it's so clear to me, Like I remember the fire blazing and the little crackles going up. But I think like in the moment, I was empty.
I don't know if I said maybe like two words. Y asked if I would go back to the bedroom with him, and it was pretty dark in there. He had all these like windows and I think glass doors that would lead out onto the deck. I remember laying on the bed and I remember laying there not moving. I didn't want to touch him. I felt like I was a deer in headlights. I was so scared. I didn't know what to say, what to do. I think I was just almost standing outside on the deck watching
it happen. Physically, it was very painful. I remember he started getting a little irritated because I wasn't being passionate at all. But that first time was mostly just me laying there like stiff as a board, very confused, very scared, feeling so alone? Where are my parents? Why can't I go home?
Why? Me?
And when it was over, that was pretty much it. He sent me back to the four plex. I walked there and I just remember going over and over again in my mind, like why.
Why can't I be back at home. It definitely didn't feel like God's laugh. It felt totally the opposite, and I just cried myself to sleep that night and never talked about it.
Soon after that night, Victor told the maidens they had a choice to make. They could stay and honor their commitment as a maiden or go. Staying meant they would remain unmarried and accept this role for the rest of their lives. He told them they'd each write a letter confirming their decision, and they would write the letter today.
I definitely thought that everyone was going to say yes. I remember feeling like I couldn't say no. I didn't even know if my parents would want me back because they gave me to him. I just remember feeling almost like I had no other options, that the only thing to say was yes, that I would stay, and all ten of us said yes.
Victor invited Lindsay's parents Carmen and Peggy to his lodge. They sat on the same leather couch where Victor had interrogated Lindsay that night. In the lodge, Victor and another man was there an elder in the church. Lindsay watched for miss Stool in the kitchen. Victor told them his plans for Lindsay's future. He explained that Lindsay was called to make a lifetime commitment, a vowed to remain unmarried and serve the church.
And what an honor it was, What an honor it was for my family. And he said that in this it was natural and spiritual for when I turned eighteen for Victor to take care of me sexually.
Victor explained this to her parents by claiming this was reflected in the Bible. Jesus had Mary Magdalene, the Apostle, Paul had Phoebe. He told them that these holy men took care of the women who committed themselves to the men, and that included taking care of the women sexually, as though it's a kindness to the woman who follows.
And he even said something like, you know, Carmen, if you were the one out on the road and preaching the gospel and sharing about Christ's coming and all that stuff. And you met Peggy and she started serving with you in that way it would be natural for you to take care of her sexual needs. And that made me feel so embarrassed. I never had these kinds of talks before, and still hadn't had my period yet. I still felt like a little kid.
Did they seem to react?
I do remember seeing my dad's face and he looked very serious.
After the meeting, they walked out together and Lindsay had a quick, informal goodbye with her parents.
My dad and Victor were walking in front, and I was walking back with my mom, and she like took my arm and squeezed it and smiled. But I don't even know if we exchanged words.
Feel free to be like I don't even want to take the time to answer that question if you don't feel like it, but it can't help. But wonder, like, what was going on with your parents at the time in that meeting? Were they in denial? It's hard, I think for anybody to wrap their mind around. But what do you do?
You have a guess as to what was going on just from perceiving their behavior during like the Summer of Love ninety nine, and even when we moved to the camp, I think I shared that story of my mom wanting the idea of putting on her wedding dress and when we got to the camp, and yeah, I would say that maybe my mother was possibly more accepting of it and maybe even excited for me that I had this
kind of commitment, maybe even jealous in a way. My father, my guess was, he was maybe more hesitant and maybe even confused on how this made sense. But again, neither of them did anything. They just left me there. Again, Yeah, I think there was part of me that was like, why aren't you guys saying anything? Like why I mean, honestly, though, if you were a parent and this forty year old guy was saying he was going to wait till eighteen and I'm only thirteen. Really, I mean thinking back now,
like who would just sit there? No red flags are raised. You wouldn't be like, I'm taking my daughter home. The people that I trusted all my life, this man of God, and this ordained man of God one of his right hand men, are all saying this is good and fine. And yeah, it was a very confusing time, I guess I am special being compared to Mary Magdalen with Jesus Christ like, oh my gosh, I mean wow, I'm one of the chosen ones. I was just like, okay, well, this is my life now.
Lindsay sat on the floor in the fourplex with her friend Jess. They were alone in the bedroom next to the bunk beds. She looked at Jess, at the red hair and face full of freckles. The usual smile wasn't there. They asked each other, did Victor talk with your parents too? Both of them said yes. To Lindsay, it meant they were both acknowledging what Victor had done to them, what he did when he called a maiden to the lodge at night.
The words didn't need to be said. It was just, is this happening to you too?
That's when one of the older maidens walked in.
She came in and heard us and was like, you guys cannot be talking about this stuff. She told Victor, And that's when we were separated for a little while. If there were jobs, we weren't allowed to be together. We weren't allowed to share a room together. The ton of us knew it was happening, but nobody said anything about it.
Decided to plan an event to present the maidens to the church, a spiritual marriage ceremony in front of their parents, the clergy, and the elders. The ceremony would be a way to make the maidens an official fixture of the church, approved by the community.
Have you ever been involved in like a really big event and you have an important part, whether it's in a wedding, you're walking down the aisles of flower girl or a bridesmaid, and maybe you have the butterflies, and you know it's a really big event, and maybe you're not sure what to do. Like those were all the feelings that I was feeling. I knew this was going to be really important and that for some reason, God had chosen me to be a part of this.
The night of the commitment ceremony was cold, the type of winter weather where they'd bundle their faces except for their eyes. Lindsay noticed how in days like this, the warm condensation her breath would cling to her eyelashes, turning them into tiny icicles. A heavy layer of snow covered the property, with ice hanging stiffly from the buildings. It was dark in the evening after dinner. The maiden's parents, the clergy, the elders, and Victor gathered in the dining hall.
The room was dim lit just by oil lanterns on the walls. Each maiden wore a cream lace veil.
I think I knew I should be happy. I remember feeling very nervous and my parents they waved at one point, and I kind of shied away.
She wasn't sure she was even allowed to look her dad in the eyes anymore. Victor preached about concubines in the Bible.
Like Solomon had many concubines, and it was basically just women and waiting, and he would call one of them to have sex with them.
Said, the maidens would be more than concubines.
But we were committing our life to serving God in the church and to remaining unmarried for that purpose of, you know, committing our life to God. I wanted to obey and submit because I didn't want to get in trouble. I didn't fully grasp, you know, like for the rest of my life, what that meant, and that it meant to Victor, not to Jesus Christ, not to God, it meant to Victor.
The girls lined up from oldest to youngest. Victor walked down the line. He asked each of them a question of commitment. Each one said I do. Victor took out a dish of salt. For each girl. He licked his finger, dipped it in the salt, and put his finger on his tongue. Then he dipped his finger in the salt again and put the salt on her tongue.
I remember thinking that my parents took salt when they were married. So I was trying to remember the things that Victor had told us, that we were chosen, that this was an honor, that how great heaven was going to be because we had decided to give our lives. This is almost like the ultimate sacrifice. And this is such an opportunity for me. And out of all the girls in the entire world, there's only ten of us.
Victor took out ten gold rings.
He put the rings on our hands. This was to be worn on our ring fingers. Doesn't fit anymore. I mean, I was just a kid there, but this is all it goes on now.
And only it doesn't even pass your second knuckle now, Nope, it's so tiny.
Yeah, I was just a kid.
Next time, on the Turning.
Victor detested overweight women. He thought they were disgusting, and that was one of the reasons that such an emphasis was put on weight control, and any of the women in the church who were a little heavier were consistently being told to work on their weight.
The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and produced by Alan Lance, Lesser and Me. Our story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed by James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Our executive producers are John Parratti and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch and Katrina Norvel
and Nikki Etour at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out via email The Turning at Rococo punch dot com I America Lance thanks for listening.