The Woke Mob with Jennifer Sey

in this episode. Jennifer Say, who actually was a cancel culture victim who was forced out of her job at Levi's. She was the brand president. She was on track to be the Genes company CEO, but she was forced out for simply just raising questions about COVID. You know, she's got kids. She was worried what school closures would do, what impact that would have on her children, and they said, you know what, you got to shut up or ship out, and so she chose to resign as opposed to taking

money and musling herself. So she experienced this woke mob both as just a human being in today's society during COVID, but also as an executive at a major corporation. So I want to talk to her about that and then also, what does this mean for society with gen Z, this TikTok generation, What is her workforce going to look like in the future, And how much control the CEOs really even have when they're seemingly being held captive by these

justice warrior employees. So that conversation and more. She's also the author of a new book, Levi's and Button. It's an autobiography of her time at Levi's. She's also the author of a book called Chalked Up. It's an autobiography of her time as an elite gymnast. And she was a producer of athlete A, a documentary on the Larry a Star scandal at USA Gymnastics. The film ended up winning an Emmy as well. So interesting background, interesting story, and we're going to get into all of it with

Jennifer Say. Well, Jennifer, it's so good to have you on the show. You know, I want to obviously get into what led to your resigning from Levi, But I mean that track to get to the position a brand president, to be on the CEO track, I mean you put in a lot of sweat equity. It's a major company. Talk about sort of that journey to get to the point where you were before you left. Yeah, I thank

you for having me. First of all, I spent the better part of my adulthood at Levi's Climbing Climbing the Ladder. I started there in nineteen ninety nine. I was not my first job, but certainly very early in my career. I was an entry level marketing assistant. I didn't even really know what I wanted, but I loved the brand and I loved the product, and I'd warned the product since I was a young child, you know. I'd tell a story in the book that I wrote, Levi's I'm Betton.

I traveled to Moscow in nineteen eighty six for the very first good Will Games, which was sort of this rogue, you know, Olympic style competition, and I brought ten pairs of Levi's five O ones to trade with the Russian gymnasts. I mean, they were part of my life, and they represented rugged individualism and sort of the best of American values.

And I loved this company. So I started there in nineteen ninety nine, worked my way up the ladder, which wasn't particularly easy as a woman in the nineties and two thousands, it was a pretty inhospitable environment to women, I would say, and I think, you know, it's a testament to how far we have come that it is much better now. It was very male dominated, you know, you spend time at sales meetings with drunken sales guys trying trying to avoid you know, advances and that kind

of thing. But I climbed my way up, and in twenty thirteen I made it to cheap Marketing Officer, which is a really big and public facing role that helps to steer the direction of the brand and the company and the brand. The company wasn't doing well, you know, we were near bankruptcy in twenty eleven, the storied iconic brand, and eight years in the role as CMO, I helped bring it back and helped us to an IPO. We went public in twenty nineteen, very successfully. And I, you know,

I was just I was disciplined, curious. I took pride in being a leader and helping people build careers, you know, at the company. But in two and twenty, when the schools shut down and we went into total lockdown in San Francisco and across the country, I was alarmed and I was reading the data that showed that children were at no risk, and I was very outspoken. I have four children, all public school students, and I was outspoken about all of the restrictions to children from the outset,

you know, right from March thirteen, twenty twenty. And by outspoken, you know on social media, I wrote off as I was on a local news and eventually, in the late fall of twenty twenty started leading rallies to try to get the schools open, and it was a conflict internally. I was told repeatedly I needed to stop, that it was upsetting to people. I did not stop for two years, and eventually I was told there was no longer a

place for me at the company. Now, during this two years, I was promoted as you indicated to brand President, which is you know, next in line for CEO, and I think a testament to the fact that I was performing in my duties. But what I was doing was quote unquote upsetting to people and it went against the Democratic Party narrative. And I was told I needed to leave, and I was offered severance. Did not accept it because

I didn't want to sign a nondisclosure agreement. I wanted to be able to speak out about the censorship and the liberalism. And so here we are and I'm talking to you. So how did they approach you? Were they just you know, kind of what were those conversations like when they were obviously identifying things that they weren't happy with in terms of you know, what you were saying about COVID. It didn't start for about six months, so I think the first call that I, you know, noted

was in September of two and twenty. And you know, as I was tweeting and writing staff and you know, I kept thinking, well, if someone called me, I'll you know, think about it. But you know, no one's saying. I didn't really have a very large follow and I'll just keep going this is too important. But in the fall of twenty twenty, I got a call from our head

of corporate communications and that role. You know, I think she would define it as protecting the corporate reputation, you know, of the company, and I think she saw what I was doing as potentially harmful to the reputation of the company. Though I never identified myself as an employee, you know, I was speaking as a mom and a citizen, and she said, people are noticing people are upset with what you're saying. And I said, okay, I understand that, but I think it's the right thing to do, to stand

up for children. And at this point, you know, it was the fall of twenty We knew so much. I mean, we knew so much in the beginning, but we knew, you know, that the median age of death was in the eighties. We knew that children were mercifully protected. We knew that European schools had been opened, and we knew that the private schools in my city were about to open.

And this woman was about to send her children back to in person school while telling me I could not advocate for the same for the low income children of San Francisco. So, you know, she said, people are upset. You need to probably think about it and stop. And I said I don't. I don't want to. And I said, are you telling me I have to? And she said, no, I can't do that. I don't know if she meant because you know, legally she can't, or because she was

a peer and she didn't have the authority. And I said, then I'm not going to and she said, will you hold the line? And I didn't really understand what that meant. And I said, you know, I'm not going to identify myself as a Levi's employee. I'm not speaking on behalf of the company. That's what I will offer you. And we hung up, and from then on, every two weeks, I'd get a call from somebody else, you know, from the head of legal, from a board member, and the

conversation pretty much went the same way. It didn't start to accelerate and kind of escalate in intensity in the spring of twenty one, after I appeared on Fox, which is a no no apparently, And of course you're right. We knew the entire time that you know, the remote learning was not going to be good for kids, that you know, kids have been set back so far in terms of their learning and their development. I mean, it's really just been tragic what they did to kids. Why

did you make the decision? You know, you said that you decided not to sign the nondisclosure you didn't want to be muzzled, which essentially that's what it would have done. And what was that decision making, like to say, you know, I'm going to walk away from this company. I've spent all this time working my way up. Yeah, I mean the decision was whether or not to take the money and muzzle myself. I mean I was being pushed out, you know, a job for me was no longer an option. There.

The question was, you know, did I take the money, give myself a quote unquote soft landing and walk away and not talk about it? And honestly, it took me all about, you know, a few seconds to decide. And people ask me all the time, why why did you throw it all away? Why was this the hill that you were willing to die on? And my response is

always why weren't you? I mean, if we if we shouldn't have to live in a country where we can't express our opinions, where we can't stand up for our families, and where we're expected to further lies because it's what our tribe tells us to do. That is not a

free country. And if we had been able to have a conversation, a societal conversation about this particular issue, you know, and all the other ones having to do with COVID, but this particular issue, I think we would have gotten to a very different answer and we wouldn't be experiencing, you know, the patastrophic harms that are playing out in terms of, you know, how our kids are doing. And so I just I couldn't silence myself, you know. I mean it all started with me just sort of being

dogged and standing up for children. But as it progressed over the course of two years, what became more and more alarming was the censorship and the manufacturing of this false consensus and the lack of any ability to kind of have open debate and dissent around this issue. And that almost became more important and more central, because that affects every issue right in the country. If we can't talk about these things, that we can't get to any

reasonable common sense solution. And so I just wasn't going to give up my voice. It seemed too hypocritical, and I felt like, Okay, this is a hill. I will gladly die on the hill for freedom of speech and the well being of children. I can't really think of a higher purpose than that. It's more important than my job. And you know, I decided quickly that I was not going to take the money. I respect that because you know,

we're like minded in that way. I was actually interviewing for the view for the Conservative Sea and I wouldn't get vaccinated, and so you know that there goes that, right and then and then of course they'll they all end up with COVID regardless. But you know, no one, of course, no one ever admits you were right about stuff. You know, But I want to ask you, you don't know you had mentioned that when you were starting at Leva and you're working our way up, you felt like

this company represents the best of America. Do you still feel that way? I would assume not. No, Yeah, I don't. I mean I think the brand does in people's minds. Do you know what I mean when I when I say the best, Like Levi's has never been a brand that used flag imagery for instances in its advertising, but I think the brand has very much stood for rugged individualism,

for progress and optimism and inclusion. Like you think about who wears Levi's, right, everybody wears Levis Farmers and carpenters and minivan moms and hipster kids and bee boys and like everybody like that is that's kind of the promise of America, right, that we're like united in our difference. We all wear this brand because we can be ourselves in it and wants something that unite us, that we want to be ourselves, we want to express ourselves as individuals.

And I always thought that was so cool about Levis And I think while people may not express it that way like I just because they didn't spend twenty three years working on the brand, I think people have that sense. I mean I know they do, because I've talked to people around the world, and people around the world love that about Levi's. And I think that's why my story has resonated, because this is not a company that people don't know, you know, or like a giant company that

you don't really know what they do, like Salesforce. You know, this is Levi's. Everybody has a pair in their closet and has some sense of it as representing that promise. And so to see this play out is alarming to people, right And so no, I don't. I think it's anything but inclusive. And I think they've trespassed their own stated values and an effort to see to carry water for

the Democratic Party. You know, there's this collusion between corporate America and kind of woke activists and and the actual Democratic Party and the press, by the way, who just prints you know, the press and journalists have completely fallen off course and they print you know, government issue talking points and corporate issue talking points from Fiser as journalism, and that's not journalism. There's this total collusion. And so no,

I don't think they embody those values anymore. I think they pretend to, but clearly my story is evidence of the fact that they do not. It feels like we're all hostages to the woke mob. We're all being held hostage by them. Talk about how beholden our corporations to the woke mob these days? And how did that happen? I mean, they don't have to be, you know, I mean they are because why yeah, why do you think they are? Though? Well, I think it's a couple of things,

you know. I think the price one, I think these leaders are. They lack courage, They lack moral courage, They don't know what they think. You know, I used to think when I was younger, I want to get in that room where the smart people are, the executives who are making tough calls. And I got in the room and I was like, well, that's not what's happening here.

You know. They looked to their left and they're right before uttering a word, and they don't speak authentically, and they don't speak in their own voice, and I think right now, you know, it's an attempt to profit off of gen Z and millennial activism to say kind of we share your value to buy our stuff, rather than talking about we make this great product that you're going to like and focusing on product excellence. It provides a shield from scrutiny because the press eds it up and

then they failed to kind of scrutinize these businesses. You know, I think someone like Sam Bankman Freed is a great example of that. Right. He championed all these woke causes pre pandemic planning and environmentalism, and they put them on their covers of Forbes and Fortune, and they never did any basic due diligence in terms of looking at the financial fundamentals which would have revealed that he was a

fraud from the beginning. That he was celebrated for years and enabled, you know, that enabled his theft and frauds. So it's a shield from scrutiny. They like being celebrated. It's not cool to be rich anymore. You have to disavow your privilege and greed is not good. So even though they're still greedy and want to make a ton of money, they take these stances so they can be celebrated in all the ways that their egos require. And you know, lastly, they're afraid of their young employees. They

want to impress their own kids. They don't understand social media. And so when they have their HR lead and their corp common league coming to them and saying you have to be very afraid of this very vocal, punitive minority, they are, and so they cater to them. And at the end of the day, Lisa, I just don't think it would be that hard to stand up to them, you know, I think it would not be that hard

to do. For instance, what Ted Sarandos at Netflix did when he said, look, I know you want me to take this off the platform, but we appeal to a lot meaning Dave Chappelle's the Closer, But we have a lot of viewers that like a lot of stuff. If you don't like it, don't work here. That was it. It was over quick commercial break more with Jennifer Say

on the other side. Well, see, that's the thing they don't understand is when you do see companies stand up and they're like, no, we're not going to do this. The mob goes away and finds another, you know, they'll find their next victim. They do that, they target. It's like a swarm of bees. You know. You wrote in the New York Post, which I love this, you wrote, these twenty and thirty somethings are ideological terrorists, policing their

peers and elders relentlessly. I mean, social media has really empowered this mob, you know. I mean it's really empowered these young people. You know, I think a majority of our population to have so much control over you know, dictating sort of this fake morality and virtue signaling to the rest of us, and holding these CEOs and companies captive as well. Yeah, they absolutely are. And I really honestly believe it's a very vocal, impunitive minority. I think

it's you know, under ten percent. I think the vast majority of people are applying basic common sense and at the very least are open to people having you know, debate and theos. But the majorities stay quiet because they're afraid of the minority. And that's what puts people like me in this you know, zone of being able to be targeted as fringe and you know, crazy and dangerous

because the majority, the majority stay silent. You know, they're afraid, and you know, everything I faced over the course for two years. In some ways it was you know, behind closed doors, but in some ways it was also very public. You know, we had these virtual town halls because we of course we're working virtually. It was too dangerous to go in the office and people would just call me terrible names, and honestly they didn't have to use their names,

you know in the chat. You know, can you please address what why Genza is here? She's a racist, she's this, she's a fat pope, she's the anti trans Like I was, you challenge one aspect of the platform, one tenant, and then you get lumped into this. She's a fringe psychopath, QAnon insane lady. And it was happening very publicly. People knew what was happened, and so they make the choice to stay quiet themselves. You know, nobody would even say, hey, I don't agree with her, but she has the right

to say it. And fifty thousand public school children are at home, we can have this conversation. Nobody wants to do that because so the sixty seventy percent stay silent, and you have this battle between you know, the angry, woke mom and it is real. I don't care what the left says. It was real. They got me outted from my job. And then you have the people sort of brave enough to stand it and say, hey, can we talk about this or I'm not going to further

these lies. All of this the school close. It was the premised you know this online. It was premised on the lie that we were all at equal risk. It was premised on the lie that virtual learning was school. It was premised on the lie that kids were resilient enough to endure this isolation and come out unscathed. And I wouldn't further a lie, but that minority, you know, you asked a great question. I don't understand why we're also afraid of that when if we stood together, we

would be the mature. And you're right. I mean what they do is they smear you. You know, I've literally raised questions about one vaccine and like my entire professional career about the COVID vaccines because you know, they were produced in less than a year. Are most vaccines have five to ten years of safety data and I'm not at risk because I was like, sorry, I'm not getting it, and they labeled anti vaxx or that this is what

they do. They try to silence you through smears. I worry about you know, this sort of TikTok generation gen z. You know these overly you know, sensitive but incredibly hostile group of young people. Isn't it very sensitive but very hostile, Like with our leaders wanting to fly private while telling us, you know, we need to do something about climate change and you're just like, none of it makes sense and any of this, you know, we live in a clown world.

What does this mean for the future generation of our country or workforce? I mean, I worry that we're not producing the best and that comparatively speaking to other countries, we're going to be left behind because you know, we're producing a bunch of you know, cry baby victims who think they deserve everything without ever happy to work for anything. Yeah, I mean it's interesting observing, you know, it's slightly tangential, but like you know, San Francisco where I used to live.

I moved to Denver during all of this, but has the lowest return to office occupancy rate. And you know, at the time of my leaving Leavis in spring of twenty two, they had reopened officers sort of in the soft way, and the highest occupancy on any given day was like fifteen percent. Like people were just refusing to come back. And I will tell you they're not doing work. I mean, I can tell you from managing a team for two years that was virtual. They're not. You know.

They say it's flexibility. They say they want, you know, more flexibility, which I always allowed for anyway. I never told people that be in their seats from nine to six every day, you could pick up your kid, just get your work done. But yeah, they're not. They're not doing work, and they're they're demanding, you know, everything on their terms. I think at the end of the day, though, it's going to have to I'll say, from a business perspective,

business is not good. It's going to get back to brass tax at the end of the day, they're going to have to get back to product excellence, you know, aspirational marketing and treating employees fairly but holding them to account to do the work that they're supposed to do. They're not going to hold the reins forever. And I

just I think they're gonna these businesses. I think that CEOs are hungering to get back to business, to stop with all the extraneous stuff, to stop listening and being terrorized by these young people who and it's not all young people. I had amazing young people that worked for me. I just want to say that, but by this minority of people who are bringing their proselytizing to the workplace, Go work somewhere else. Go work in a nonprofit, Go

do advocacy. If you want to work in corporate America, work on delivering a great product improves people's lives, and you know, you know, doing it in a way that is collaborative and people enjoy and marketed aspirationally. That's what a business is. And I just I think that it's just going to be necessary, and I think eventually corporate leaders are going to have to do it out of necessity. But someone needs to counsel them and give them the words.

They don't know how to stand up, they don't know how to say the simple thing that Ted Sarandos said. They don't know how. So some smart person has to start to consult with them and tell them how to do it, because I think they're hungry to get back to it. Well, I was watching they like there's all these videos circulating when Elon Musk took over Twitter and it was like the day in the life of you know, Twitter people, and they're like, I went to yoga and then I went and got by a lot to like

I went to like my safe space. Like you're like, what I think. This is not I'm thirty eight and that's not the world I grew up and you know, in terms of working, I mean, I've had to work my butt off. You know, I don't understand this, like the work culture these days. And I don't think COVID helped either, because you know, everyone basically was told to stay home and they got paid from the government. And I think we're this really weird era from a work

perspective of just laziness. To be perfectly honest, Well, it starts in the universities. You know, it's like effort not results. I mean, remember the story I don't even know how long ago it was at this point about the NYU profs, the humbioprof or some some premedge prof who got fired and the complaints from the students were that he didn't account for the effort they put in to their work. He didn't account for how hard they were working. No,

it's about mastery, not effort. And and you know, we live in a world where it's been determined that you know, a result's focus or merit driven approaches is called racist. But you know, at the end of the day, I don't think people want doctors who just worked hard. They want doctors who have mastery of the subject matter. Now we can put the whole doctor conversation aside, and as far as how you know, many doctors kind of moved

through the COVID regime. But at the end of the day, it has to be about results in business in every sector. You know, if you're not providing adequate patient care, you don't get to be a doctor. If you're not delivering results in a business, you don't get to have that job. But we're not allowed to say that anymore. But again, these corporate leaders, they still at the end of the day, care about making money and results. They're just sort of

wrapping it in these works dances now. And that's what I take issue with, is the lie at the end of the day. They still want to make money. The board wants them to make money, the shareholders need them to make money. That's their fiduciary responsibility. So let's be honest about that. Let's be honest about how did you you could do it and treat employees well. You know, you don't have to have misogynistic work cultures, you don't have to be unfair and the way you pay people,

But get back to basics. I just think we're going to have to. I mean, it's not going to be without effort from people like us. But at the end of the day, we live in the real world and boards and shareholders are not going to accept declining profitability because companies aren't requiring employees to go to work and all they do all days talk about their feelings when

they do well. I also think saying, like the people that say a merit based society is racist, I think that is actually a racist thing to say, because you're saying that certain types of people cannot rise to meet those merits and that's not the viewpoint I have. So I think it's actually you know, demeaning and belittling to and racist. Quite frankly, this equity point of view is actually a racism in a nutshell. So you were an

elite gymnast. You also worked you're one of the producers of Athlete, a documentary on the Larry Nasar scital at the USA Nastics documentary one an Emmy, which is really cool. I wanted to just ask you before we go, you know, what did you learn if you can kind of give us a preview about what you learned from being a

producer on that documentary. Yeah, Well, I had an elite genesis as a child, and I was the nineteen eighty six national champion, and I wrote a book in two thousand and eight about the abusive culture, which is and I was sort of canceled in a smaller kind of pterview for that because I said things that no one else had said yet about how abuse of the culture was physically emotionally. And yes, there are sexual predators rampant in the sport, and they were protected and we were sacrificed.

So you know, I am well acquainted with the ways that adults can sacrifice the well being of children. Eventually, when the Naster story broke, which was about ten years after I wrote my book, I was redeemed and everyone who dragged me and said I was a grifter and a liar suddenly said they had always stood with me. So in about twenty seventeen eighteen, I decided I thought that it would be a great idea to make a film that connected the crimes of Nasser to the broader

culture of abuse. He's not happening in isolation. He's happening because this culture allowed for him to happen. Because this culture allowed for the abuse of young children and beat them down to the point that they would accept any and all manner of abuse. That's why it happened. And so I actually concept of the film, and I had worked closely with the lawyer, the lawyer for most of the Nasser survivors, so I knew a lot of the

young women. And I think the most important thing for me it was again to not make it this like salacious story about Nasser specifically, but to connect it to that broader culture of abuse. And I think that's what

we were able to do successfully. And there is a movement that has started around the world within gymnastics and other Olympic sports where athletes are saying, no more, we make the sport we decide we are not going to accept this kind of mistreatment on behalf of code, you know, from coaches and the governing bodies of the sports, and so the athletes are rising up to demand better, which I think is amazing. I'm super proud of that. In

terms of what the film was able to accomplish. You had mentioned that people after the fact are like, oh, yeah, I was there all along. We see that a lot with COVID too, where it's like, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, I was. You know, I'm against lockdowns. I was against I'm like, I don't think the record states that, but whatever, it's made interesting they'll say it when all the records states opposite, Like there's video, there's tweets like, how do

they just lie like that? I don't understand it. I don't know. Unfortunately, we're not gonna, you know, solve all of the world's problems here. Well, Jennifer, I appreciate your voice. I appreciate what you've done and just taking a stand. And it seems like you had mentioned kind of being on the front end of calling out what was happening in gymnastics, and then also with there seems to be a pattern with you so I respect it. We need

more of that and then today's society. So Jennifer, I appreciate it, and everyone go check out author of Chalked Up and then more recently Levi's Unbuttoned as well, which is not a biography of your time at Levi's. So thanks so much for joining the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it, and I appreciate your boys. That was Jennifer say, interesting conversation. You know. I love people like her who speak out

and are unafraid. I really think the only way we can turn this country around and escape from this clown world we're living in is to just have more people speak up and re brave like her. So I appreciate her time. I appreciate you guys as always for listening to the show every Monday and Thursdays when we do new episodes, but of course you can listen throughout the week or whenever you want. I want to thank John Cassio,

my producer, for putting the show together. Feel free to leave us a review, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts. Until next time, Thanks so much,