Episode 4: Who's Thinking of the Students? An Interview with Sec. Betsy DeVos

My guest has taken on the teachers unions, which of course meant that she was one of the most attacked members of President Trump's cabinet. She is former Secretary of Education Betsy Divas, who worked for the Trump administration from two thousand seventeen to January of this year. Secretary Divas has been deeply involved in education policy for decades, working

tirelessly as a passionate advocate of school choice. As she described in two thousand thirteen interview, quote, what we're trying to do is tear down the mindset that assigns students to a school based solely on the zip code of their families home. We advocate instead for as much freedom as possible. Secretary Divace is the former chair of both the American Federation for Children and also the Philanthropy Roundtable

Board of Directors. She also served on a number of other local and national boards, including Art Prize, the American Enterprise Institute, the Foundation for Excellence and Education, and Divoce Institute for Arts Management at the University of Maryland. She also served as the chair of the Michigan Republican Party from nineteen ninety six to two thousand and from two

thousand three to two thousand five. I want to bring on Secretary Divorce to have a wide ranging and in depth conversation about the state of America's education system today, especially as her schools continue to face unprecedented challenges during COVID, school choice, Title nine reforms, teachers unions, and even critical race theory. I promise we're going to cover it all today, and with that, I want to welcome to the show

the former Secretary of Education, Betsy Divas. I'm so excited to have this conversation because a lot of you know, conservatives, we talk about things like school choice, but sometimes there's a lot of nuance into in it, and so I really just want to break it all down with you. But before we get started on that, this is really even before you served as Secretary of Education. This has really been a passion of yours. You've served on boards, You've invested a lot of money, a lot of time

on this issue. Why why does school choice means so much to you? Well, Lasi, you're right. I mean, for more than three decades, I've been working on and advocating for families, for parents to have the ability to make decisions and control where their kids and how their kids go to school and learn. And um. It started frankly, when my oldest son, who just turned thirty nine, was starting kindergarten, and I began to get involved at a a small urban Christian school in my hometown of Grand Rapids.

The more I volunteered, the more I realized there were families there that loved having their kids there, but many families who wish they could have their kids there. For probably know, probably ten to twenty as many families tend to tend to twenty times more families that would have loved to have their children in that kind of a school but simply can't afford it. Couldn't afford it. And

so what began as a volunteer activity. Soon um really grew into an issue of fairness and justice from my perspective, and having been involved in a lot of partisan politics at the same time, I realized ultimately that the only way to bring these kinds of opportunities to families was really to change public policy, and you had to do that with a political element involved. Well. And that's why I've never understood about some of the attacks against you

from the left, because look, you're you're wealthy. That's great, i I'm working on it. You know, there's nothing wrong with being wealthy in America. But if you're wealthy, you can you can you have school choice, right, You have the opportunity to to send your kids to private schools. You have the opportunity to move to a better zip codes, your kid is in a better school district, and to

get a better education. It's really the fight for the people who don't have those same resources, who don't have that same income level. That's why I've really never understood those attacks against you, because it's not for wealthy individuals. This is a fight for people who can't afford the

same access who deserve it. No, that's exactly right, And you know the media has been complicit in obfus skating the issue for many, many years because the politicians who sit and and are loyal to the teachers union, um, you know, they're the ones that also have made choices themselves. And they're total hypocrites when it comes to denying families who they profess to want to help. Um, they're just total hypocrites when they're sending their children to private schools,

whether they're faith based or otherwise. And uh, and denying that same opportunity to families that can't afford to to write the tuition checks. Well, and and so before we get in, I do want to talk to you about the teachers unions and really dig in to that a little bit further. But so my understanding is when you look at school choice more broadly, it falls under two buckets. You have private school choice and then you have public school choice. Can you kind of break down those two

buckets for the people listening? Sure, So a lot of people get really confused when we talk about school choice, and some of them think that school choice simply means charter schools or the ability to go to a charter school. Let's be really really clear. Charter schools are public schools that are funded with public money's public tax dollars and UM. The difference for charter schools is that they are independently operated from others in their you know, in their region

or in their district or their system. And UH that is that has been a real storn in the eyes of those who want to protect the system and to keep all of the power and control and resources for themselves. So the teachers unions have continued to fight against charters because it represents a lack of ability for them to control the other part of school choice. There are many

different mechanisms for it. But when public funds, when tax payer funds flow to UH private schools, whether they're faith based schools or virtual schools, or whether they're buying a course from a university or UM you know, some other mechanism that can be done through UH a tax credit at a state level. It could be done through a

direct vulture amount. It can be done through an education savings accounts where money's are are attributed or you know, given to a family to then buy different education resources

and customize education. UH. There's there's different mechanisms to choose non public or private providers of education as well, and it's been I think it's been really difficult for a lot of people to envision what this could look like for themselves or that you know, their children or grandchildren until really recently, in this last year, when school shut down, many didn't reopen, and families began looking for alternative ways

for their child learn to continue learning. And suddenly I think many eyes that you know, many parents eyes have been opened across the country around what what school choice could mean or could be for their children. And we've seen, you know, states take additional actions. I believe it's West Virginia and Kentucky. You know, they've signed a new new

school choice expansions this year. How much more, you know, how many more states or what kind of engagement do you think we're going to see from parents who quite frankly, are just fed up with schools being closed and feeling like their kids aren't getting educated yet. You know, a lot of these public schools have surpluses or have certainly

have enough money to open well exactly. And one of the things that I have been very proud of what what our team did while we were at the Department of Education was to really bring the whole issue and notion of school choice to the foreground. We really live prairie fire under the notion of money following the student instead of money going to a building or a system.

And when the shutdowns occurred last spring, um, you know, we are now in a place where many states are considering legislation to either expand programs that they already have or in many cases, states are introducing programs where they haven't even thought of entertaining them before. And you mentioned

West Virginia. They just passed what is nearly a universal for for every student in West Virginia, the possibility to access one of these education savings accounts, So students there could buy tutoring services or they could buy classes online for um, you know, if their school is open and they're attending but their school doesn't offer something they want, or if their school isn't open and isn't doing, um what it is there to do, the parents can take

that education savings account and take and put their children in a school that is going to meet their needs. So West Virginia just you know, came along and joined the crowd on on school choice. Kentucky very recently as well. UM, and this is another really interesting phenomenon because the governor there um the legislature passed the tax credit legislation to

establish a tax credit. The governor vetoed it in spite of the fact that he himself sends his own children to a private school and h then then then the legislature overrode his depo to establish the program. So it's uh, you know, it's it's a win for the kids in Kentucky, UM, Florida and Arizona and Indiana are considering historic expansions of programs that they've had. South Dakota has expanded their tax

credit program. Oklahoma just pass legislation to have money followed the students within any public school system while between systems. So the whole issue of empowering families to make these choices has really caught fire. And um the shutdowns from the pandemic and the ways that the teachers unions have responded or not responded have really precipitated a lot of this move and frankly continue to to build the uh, the resolve of families to do what they need to

do for their kids. Well, and it seems to be the case, I believe did you say it was the governor's child goes to private school, Governor Bushier's children go to private school. Well, and that seems to be the case with so many of these politicians. I mean, I remember Governor Newsome got flat because he was sending his kids back to private school and Sacramento and public schools were shut down, so those students weren't afforded the same opportunity.

Or there was a union leader in Berkeley, California opposing opening schools. However he was sending his kid to a private school. So why do so many of these politicians, primarily on the left, they want that great education for

their kids, but they're denying it for other children. Well, I think too many of them are frankly totally beholden to the teachers union because the perception, at least I think what they believe is that you can't cross the teachers Union or you're going to get punished in your next primary or your next you know, your next race

for for reelection and um. And this is the This is simply untenable and and tragic for millions of kids across the country who for months have been either denied a full on robots education or you know, or been treated to something that is so meager and so inadequate that the implications are going to be felt for decades,

if not their entire lifetime. And so um. I think again, the demand is continuing to grow, and I firmly believe that more and more politicians are going to realize they cannot be on the wrong side of this issue any longer. But you've got people like the president of the American Federation of Teachers, Randy Weygardan, who recently said an interview, Look,

kids are resilient and they will recover. Is that true. Well, we don't have h we don't have any good measures of how much is going to be lost, particularly on the part of the kids who are the most vulnerable. I mean, the kids whose families have been able to figure out an alternative or go and pay for an alternative.

Those kids are ultimately probably going to be okay. But it's just heartbreaking to hear some of the stories of kids who's uh, you know, who are who are attempting to sit in front of a computer screen for an hour or maybe two a day, for whom it simply doesn't work and uh and and for whom the instruction is a fraction of what they would get if they were actually in class in person and not having that

one on one or that direct human contact. We don't know what the long term implications are going to be, but we know from the short term that it's going to be devastating for millions of kids. And I think about the story I heard of a young man, an athlete in New Mexico who um, you know, home in isolation for months on end, who kept, you know, wanting to be back in school, wanting to play on his sporting teams or his his sports teams, and um and who ultimately, uh took his life because he had he

ultimately ran out of hope. And there's more than one story like that, and it's just simply tragic. And uh, the longer that the teachers unions continued to put up roadblocks, the more tragic stories we're going to hear like that young man. Well, and I saw one children's hospital out of San Francisco said that they had they had seen a sixty six percent increase in the number of suicide

suicidal children and the emergency room. So certainly when you hear statistics like that, and the story that you just mentioned. You know, it's it's really sad, and it really gets to the question of why some of these schools haven't been reopened. There's this study that was done by I hope I'm not butchering their names, mccrey, D'Angelis and UH Christo's macreadys, and essentially the research found that UH schools closures had more to do with union influence rather than

sientific concerns about COVID. And they actually looked at twelve thousand school districts nationwide in their research. So why are these teachers unions so opposed to reopening? Well, I see, I think they they saw and see an opportunity to get more control, more resources. And I go back to last spring, when it was clear from all of the

data that was coming in really around the world. You know, European children went back to school already last spring, and when President Trump and I began calling for schools to reopen, uh, you know, you would have thought, um that we were asking for an impossibility based on what we were experiencing.

But the reality was that kids were safely going back to school all over the world and it was nothing but the union in in you know, in transigence and frankly flexing muscle and power and uh and and control to ultimately deny the most vulnerable kids, uh their opportunity to continue to learn. And they're doing it yet today. I mean the fact that teachers in Fairfax County, right outside of d c UM, you know, kept moving the goal has kept moving the goalposts. Well, we have to

wait until the teachers are vaccinated. While now the teachers are vaccinated, and now it's something else not opening in person again. Uh. You know the schools in California where more than a fifth of the teachers have said they

don't intend to return to school as required this month. Uh. It is in primarily in these large urban districts where the teachers unions are the most powerful, and we're frankly where the kids are most in need of being in school, in in class a hundred percent of the time, where they're the ones who are getting hurt in the process. And and frankly, they're the ones that I have continued

to fight for for more than thirty five years. Now, Well, you're right, because that that's what's sad about this because a lot of families with wealth, you know, they're creating pod type education for their kids. They're right, they're pulling their kids at a public school sending them to private schools. They have options, and you know, sadly, it's a lot of families that don't have that same income level who

don't have those options. So, you know a lot of kids are falling behind who just don't have that education or don't have that financial income, uh to to to get the right kind of education right now. Exactly. Yeah. I think it was in Tennessee that recently did a study and they estimated that outboards with learning loss and

reading and math um for kids who haven't been in school. Uh. Well, you you know, you can't expect that kids are going to regain that learning loss by going back to the same situation, the same type of classrooms, the same uh you know, the same construct that they left before. There are ways for them to make up learning losses, but it's not going to be returning to the same system and in the same way of doing things, because they've demonstrated time and time again they cannot get it done.

So teachers unions obviously have a stranglehold over the left and liberal politicians. You know how exactly do they work. How do they obtain that kind of power. Well, they've

they've been very strategic about it. And remember the Department of Education was stood up in ninety nine at the end of the President Carter's term UM as a payoff to the teachers union and by uh, you know, establishing the federal Department of Education the ability to try to centralize and control education even though states ultimately have have that right and have that power on the state by

state basis. UM, they have continued to solidify and and uh and you know, and gather that control um administration after administration. We saw it during the Obama administration. I'm fearful about what the Widen administration is going to do. UM. We're seeing them, you know, grant waivers to state UM to basically uh skirts their accountability requirements. My own home state of Michigan, they have they've given Michigan waiver authority to not identify the lowest five per cent of school

schools as a you know, on a performance metric. And and they're holding back billions of dollars from the the CARES and and American Recovery Acts in order to control what happens at the state and local level from Washington, d C. And so they continued, UM, they continued, you know, gathering of powers and focus of power at the federal level, UM at the extent of state and local districts is uh I think points to their their long term strategy and has continued to pay offs and and frankly, in

too many cases, federally elected Republicans have been UM either asleep or complicit in in helping to solidify that power. And I think parents, I know parents are are having their eyes opened, and they're awakening to the fact that they have got to reclaim and reassert that control and that ability to decide their kids futures and their education. You know, many of them sitting behind their kids watching what they've been learning remotely, UM, They're they're aware what

their kids are or aren't learning. Many of them are concerned about the content and the quality of what they're learning. So I think, I think again, this the whole uh COVID issue has really helped to UM point out why a nationalized school system does not work and why we have to do a tremendous pivot from where we've been and really put power back into the hands of families and have funds follow the students to the the education location of their choice. Well, and it's a political winner too.

I mean you look at polling. The majority of Americans support school choice, independence democrats, majority of minority parents support school choice. So it is a political winner. And I think at the heart even some on the left support I mean you look at someone like Senator Corey Booker. He used to be a big pronent proponent of school choice. He went to an event you held in Michigan debating

in favor of school choice. He has served on pro voucher boards with you, He has backed vouchers charter schools. But then he gave a dramatic speech in two seventeen actually opposing your nomination. Why did he do such a flip flop on such an important issue because he fancied himself president and he didn't want to get on the

wrong side of the teacher union. I mean, that's the bottom line, and that's sad because it's the you know, the kids who inevitably lose in the end, and that's what that's what really bothers me about why Republicans and why we just I mean, this should be this is you know, a civil rights movement and a sense a human rights issue in the sense of why should kids why should there zip code determine the kind of education

to get? We know, education is so important on what kind of person you're going to be in the future, the opportunities that are you can be presented you in the future, and it's it's disturbing that there's not more support.

I mean this, I mean this should be the fight. Yes, absolutely agreed, And I think, um, I think one of the challenges for some Republicans, and it's I think it's particularly those that represent rural areas, is they don't really see what's in it for their constituents because they don't see a you know, second school being built next to that little rural you k through twelve school there aren't

enough kids perhaps or whatever. And I challenge them and say, that isn't the extent of what school choice looks like.

School choice looks like a lot of different forms. If there's a handful of kids in that small rural school who learn differently, there's no reason that with school choice they couldn't take the funds meant for them and have informed a separate, little micro school that might exist right within that same school building, or a student in uh, you know, their junior or senior year to making a class online from a provider, a high quality provider anywhere

in the world, but buying that because they've made the choice to do that. There's no limit to the creativity that can be exercised when you empower families to make those choices and to express the needs for their kids, um to become everything they're meant to be. What it really just comes down to freedom and opportunity, which are two things Republicans purport to be for. So you know, I it should be the fight and we've seen to.

I mean even if you look at Governor Ron de Santis, I mean there is research and evidence pointing back to the two eighteen gubnatorial race that that is important why he won the race against Andrew Gillum, which was his support for school choice. Absolutely. Yeah, that margin in that

race was very small. It was between fifty and sixty thousand votes, I believe, and um, you look at the data behind it and double the number of black females voted for or double the percentage of black females voted for Rhonda Santis as one would have expected or quote should have and um, I guarantee they were worried about not having the opportunity to choose their kids schools and not be able to participate in the school choice program because Gillum said he was going to eliminate it, or

they had kids in the program and they wanted to make sure that they could continue. But it was definitely a factor. They're huge factor. And what kind of research, you know, what's the best way If someone says, oh, you know, look, school choice isn't better for a child's education, what's your retort, what's your response to a statement like that. Well, first of all, you know, it's the parents decision, what you know, how, how and what is best for their kids.

They're the ones who love their kids the most, who are closest to them, who know them the best. And it really really angers me when I hear people it's usually it's usually the um you know, the liberal elite, who say, well, you know, there's there's parents who can't possibly figure this out for them, for them, you know, for their children. That is so offensive. It is just

unbelievable that they could even utter those words. I have met parents after parents after parent who is longing to have their children get a different education, a better education, go to a safer school, go to a more nurturing school, whatever the case. Maybe parents know what's best for their kids and they should be able to decide that they should not have the government and liberal elite telling them what to do, when to do it, and where to go.

But it seems like it's really driven by you know, rich white liberals who send their kids to private, fancy schools, but yet don't want the rest of the country to have the same opportunities. From from my vantage point, it seems. But you know that the heart is is actually yeah, and is at the heart you know, it's ridiculous to think parents can't make the best decisions for their own kids here, but you know, I want to get it.

You had mentioned earlier about just some of the things that you know, as parents are sort of watching on the zoom calls and paying more you know, more involved really in the curriculum and what their children are being taught now that their home, that they're seeing it in action in person. Uh, and you know that is concerning you look at things like the Oregon Department of Education last February where's encouraging teachers to register for training that

argues that math is racist. Uh that you know, somehow the focus of finding the right answer or being required to show your work is somehow you know, racism. But I mean, isn't that racist though the premise that minority

kids cannot find the right answer? Absolutely it is. And I mean we've seen example after example after example of the the interductor, i mean, the the fourth seeding of curriculum that is so counterproductive and so anathetical to everything that we you know, we believe should be a part of a robust and healthy, um, you know, experience for kids in their education. And and again I think this is uh, this has been a real awakening for a lot of families across the country to see what's actually

going on and um and to hear firsthand. I mean, when when UH folks first went virtual and remote, we heard several examples of districts that we're trying to get parents signing a statement saying they weren't going to observe their children's classroom, or they weren't going to eavesdrop, or they weren't going to listen to what their children were

being taught. I mean, unbelievable examples of overreach and UM and and you know, control on part of a system that again is there existing really for itself, not for the kids. I heard an anecdote, not a little story the other day of UM, you know, anonymous comments being fed to a school leader about how they've navigated through And this was I think a school that was in person for most of the time. UM. But you know, there was a comment that there was too much focus

on the kids. Now, what is education for if not to focus on the kids? Another example of just the total um mismatch between what the system is oriented to do and what kids need. But do you think that's part of why democrats want the law on our public schools and the education system so that they can essentially indoctrinate kids. I think that's UH, that's definitely the agenda

of many within the system. I don't for a minute think that many that a lot of the teachers UM subscribe or ascribed to that, but I think that that is that is definitely part of the agenda of many within the system. UH. And I want to make sure that we we really UM distinguish between teachers and UH. And then the teachers that are really advocates for uh, the teachers union and and holding control over the whole system.

And you know, I think about a couple of round tables I had um while at the Department of Education with teachers who had been teachers of the Year and their state or their district, and you know it had their their year of what I called their victory lap around the state and then had come back to the classroom and shortly after that had decided to quit teaching.

I wanted to understand why they wanted to quit teaching, and so I listened to them and almost to a person, and it was something like, you know, you've had your chance that you know, that's same, You've taken your victory lap. Now you just need to get back into your classroom and you know, basically be quiet, don't ask questions, and

go back to what you were doing before. Now, these individuals clearly had something to offer to others, perhaps with their peers perhaps too um you know, new teachers coming in, but they were not utilized, They were not tapped and encouraged to do anything like that. In fact, they were they were peer pressured to basically get back and in many cases just resume mediocrity with, you know, in the

milieu of whatever school they happened to be in. And that, to me is just another symptom of what is wrong with a system that is essentially a monopoly. Well, yeah, monopolies should be broken up. And I'm glad you. I'm glad you made that differentiating point because you're right and delineating between are a lot of good teachers who really want to serve the needs of kids, who want to do right, who are working hard, who probably don't get

paid enough. And then you know, you do you have these proponents of the teachers unions, have these people that just want to control power, want to control what they're teaching kids. But so what do those good teachers do then, you know, what what do they do to push back, to fight back to you know, to try to fight for these kids when you know they're up against you know, these monsters of the teachers unions? Well, I think I think for many of them, if not most of them,

they finally give up. Uh why do good teachers leave and quit teaching when they're really good at what they do, they're effective, But if they aren't able themselves to be ultimately fulfilled, to continue to grow in their profession, to have opportunities to train and mentor and um, you know, take on more responsibilities within their building or within their you know, their community, UM ultimately lay what incentive is there for them to continue when there is the kind

of peer pressure that I I hear firsthand from teachers that have you know, that loved to teach but have left because they have just felt so beaten down. And you know, that to me is the again one of the big travesties of a government controlled, um nationalized school system totally. I and I don't blame them. I mean, looking at some of this you know, whistleblower documents and and these things from you know, critical race theory. I mean, Christopher Ruffo has done a great job about bringing a

lot of this stuff to the public. But he was taking a look at some documents out of Buffalo public schools and they teach about thirty four thousand students, New york second largest sitting there teaching that all white people perpetuate systemic racism, forcing kindergarteners to compare their skin color and watch a video of dead black children warning them that ray about ray says police in state sanctioned violence. So what is the long term impact on these children

to be taught stuff like that in kindergarten? Yeah, I know, it's just it is UM really concerning and um again, Until we allow for families to ultimately take control of how and where their kids are educated, UM, we're going to hear more and more of these uh awful examples of a really taking um innocent children and uh and filling them full with an agenda that is anathetical to America.

The biggest thing we can do for equality in the country is to allow each parents to determine what kind of education their child gets and make sure that every child, regardless of sink, skin color, regardless of sex, is allowed to get a great education. But I would have switch gears a little bit and talk about your work on you know, Title nine. You rewrote rules for how colleges

and universities handle allegations of sexual assault on campus. You know, really reigned in a system that was stacked against the people who were accused. Uh. You know why were those reforms needed? Well, they were absolutely necessary because of what the Obama Biden administration did, UM in response to what was a legitimate concern about how institutions should handle handle

incidents of sexual misconduct on campus. You know, let's be very clear there there there were issues UM, and they you know, that was an issue, an elephant in the rown, so to speak. But what they did by issuing a deer colleige letder which did not have the force of law, but they treated it as though it did UM, which essentially took away the rights of UH in many cases the rights of those UH, the ones who were being

complained against. UM. It was set up a very unfair and um, unreliable and unbalanced approach that resulted in hundreds of cases being filed in courts where the survivor then or the you know, the complainant had to go through and be re traumatized because the process was so broken. So what we undertook was a willmaking process and two and a half years to do it, very thorough, very complete.

That resulted in a very reliable, fair and balanced framework for institutions to use and for students to be able to rely on. And UM, you know, the criticisms about it, I just challenge anyone who is reflexively critical to sit down and read the regulation and and tell me, what

requirements there they find unreasonable? There, they won't find them really, I mean maybe small quibbles here and there on minor points, But the reality is it is a very fair and balanced rule that ensures do process protections and puts the survivor really in the driver's seat on how a complaint is ultimately UH handled and what process they want to

take with the complaints. Well, it's also it's ridiculous because just because you want do process rights for the accused does not mean that you don't also want the accuser if the you know, the allegations are valid, you want that to be adjudicated. You want that process to play out. So it's like it can't it's not an either or,

it's a both. You wanted a process that is set up for due process to allow the accuse to get a fair hearing, and if you you also want the potential victim UH to also have a you know, system and a process to go through so that the person who you know committed the acts ends up punished. So it's like it doesn't have to be in either or scenario. But that's really the way that the left sort of frames the debate. Why is that well, simply because they

didn't like what we did. And um, again the reflective reaction on the part of the advocacy groups that have been stood up for survivors quote unquote have decided they

don't like they don't like the provisions. But what it I mean, it actually strengthens provisions survivors and protections, and it really it puts them in the driver's seat if they decide they only want to have supportive measures like um, you know, changing dorm rooms or changing classes or uh, you know, a restricting access to you know, the the individual. But on the part of the one they were complaining supportive measures but not take a formal complaint through they

have that right to do so. The Obama Biden letter did not allow them to do that. And I heard many cases where um, these students found themselves in proceedings that they didn't want to be in and didn't didn't agree with, and yet they were they were powerless to do anything about it. We also defined, uh, what you know, spexual harassment is and put a clear definition, a reliable

definition around it. We protect we give in the in the rule protections for online behaviors, for stalking, for date rate and really again expanded and clearly articulated, UM, strengthened protections for survivors and at the same time ensure due process protections for those who are accused. So what's your message then, to the Biden administration, UM, that's looking to roll back those rules. I think they do so at

their own peril. UM. You know, there there's again. I I challenge anyone who reflectively reflectively has criticized it to sit down and tell the world what they disagree with. UM. Are they going to deny those who are accused due process? Right? I think not. I mean, the courts have continued to opine that do process protections are fundamental? UM. So I you know, I think that the thought of undoing what

we have done is U is simply untenable. And I'm I'm hopeful that ultimately the Biden administration concludes that they had best uh respect what the extensive work that's been done. You know, we had over a hundred and forty thousand public comments to which we had to respond and did respond. Uh. This was a very thorough, very balanced, and very fair

approach that gives a reliable framework for all involved. And I'm very proud of the work that we did, the team that that did all of the heavy lifting to UM, you know, two and a half years to do all of the right things to ensure we ended up at a in a place and with a rule that is is one that can be respected and relied upon. And lastly, before before we go, you talked a lot about reimagining education and education freedom during your tenure. What would the

ideal future look like for K through twelve system? Well, the the ideal future is that every family ultimately is empowered with the resources that are already spent on them in the public system, and that essentially that money attaches to that child back I like to picture the backpack with the you know, the money in the backpack following that child to wherever they go to get their education, and that will create a plethora of new approaches, new

innovative solutions to how kids learn in their K K through twelve years. You know, the American K twelve system is the most oxified UM system of we We've seen massive changes in every other part of our society, and yet when it comes to education, a fundamental part of growing up and becoming an adult and a contributing UM. You know, citizen, we we are. We're stuck in a system that is more than a century, almost a century and a half old, and it's time that we change.

And it's time that that families reassert their control and their right to make those decisions, and that then the creativity of the American people is unleashed to create all kinds of solutions that are going to be exciting and uh and and really you know, um totally change the future for kids and their experience and uh and ultimate late for our our society and our economy because we're gonna have a lot more creative entrepreneurs um, you know,

doing things they wouldn't have ever had the opportunity to do. Secretary Betsy Devas, you are a wealth of information. This is a fascinating conversation and I appreciate your fight for our children. It's been a lifeeslong work for you and we appreciate the work you're doing and bringing this information to light. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks so much, Lisa, appreciate it would have been Secretary

Divance again for a great interview. And if you enjoyed today show, please leave us a review and rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. You can also find me on Twitter and Instagram at at Lisa Rebooth. Special thanks to our team producer John Cassio, writer Aaron Clegan, researcher Margaret Smith, and executive producers Debbie Myers and speaker new Genkridge, all part of the Gingridge three sixty network and team