Disrupting Congress with Kevin Roberts

in a position authority for so long. They don't trust him. But there's also the part of wanting changes to the process, of wanting changes to the things like the Rules Committee. So I wanted to have someone on to get into that process conversation. You know, the people who are listening, You guys are busy. You have a billion different things going on in your life. I wanted someone to walk

through with us about why this stuff matters. So we're gonna have Dr Kevin Roberts on the show in this episode. He is the president of the Heritage Foundation, the nation's premier conservative think tank, on the show to to breakdown the process why all this matters. For instance, even if you look at the one point seven trillion dollar omnibus bill.

Congress doesn't do its job anymore. The reason why we have these massive omnibus bills like we did one point seven trillion dollars four thousand one five pages that no one can read because they're given, you know, hours to read it, it's because Congress failed to pass all of its appropriations bills. They failed to pass them for twenty six straight years in a row. I mean, the last time Congress met the October first deadline was So why

does this stuff matter? And it really does all matter, right, because the problem what we've seen in America is this centralization of power. When the House sees its authority, when it does things like even an omnibus bill, it leads to a broader centralization of power. In order to right the ship, in order to turn this country around, we need to make structural changes to the government, including the House, including Congress. So that's what I see this fight about.

That's why I also think it's important. So we're going to talk to Dr Kevin and Roberts, president of the Heritage Foundation, of all of this. I think it's a really important conversation and I hope you enjoy it. Kevin Robert's president the Heritage Foundation. Thanks so much for making the time to come on the show. I really appreciate it. It's my pleasure. Lisa, thanks for everything you do. Oh,

I appreciate what you do. And you know, Kevin, we look at this fight right now of Kevin McCarthy coming up short to get the speaker's gavel? Why do you think he has come up short of? It boils down to a trust factor, And there are two elements of that. The first is talking to members. Is I know that you do who are very thoughtful about it. These are

people who are willing to see McCarthy be speaker. They have a very hard time given his track record, and I mean that respect fully of him to say that any any deal that they strike with him is going to be honored. And I think that's why this has

taken so long. The second aspect is the perspective that I have as a lifelong movement conservative, and it's it's less about McCarthy in particular than it is about McCarthy kind of being the icon of a problem, and that is the Washington establishment, the swamp, and so all of the incentives in Washington is you and your audience. No, well, are oriented around spending too much, giving k Street lobbyists

way too much influence, letting them write bills. And this process has has taken a long time because, thank goodness, members of the House had the courage to stand up and say, regardless of what someone thinks about Kevin McCarthy, good or bad or in between, we are going to use this process to do the work of the people, which is to bring order back to the House. And and that to some up here was such a shock to the system, Lisa, that it really did grind the

whole proceedings to a halt. I'm so gratified because it's one of the few times in the last ten years that I've seen kind of regular people be able to

take one to the swamp well. And I think that's what's sort of getting lost in the broader conversations, it seems like to me, is that this is a process fight, right, This is about changing the way Congress works, changing the way the House works, because we've really gone away from the mission of what the House is supposed to do, the work these individuals that we send to Congress are

supposed to do. You know, for instance, I know some of the you know, some of the things that they're looking to change is just the balance of power on the Rules Committee. I don't think people really realize just how much power the Rules Committee has in dictating the floor agenda what they're voting on. So, you know, kind of get into some of these structural changes that these members are asking for and why that is important, why

people should care about that. Yeah, I know when people hear the phrase rules committee, their eyes glaze over and say, it's it's DC speaking. To some extent, they would be right. But the way I every including some close friends, is it's like your family meeting, which you know, and my experience, happens on Sunday nights, and so the members of the Rules Committee fly into d C a day early and they basically set the agenda for House proceedings that week.

The other aspect of that means that if the Rules Committee doesn't authorize a bill to be heard or committee proceedings to proceed, it doesn't happen. So you want to be on the Rules Committee if you want to exert the most influence in the chamber. The last aspect of this, which is the most relevant to all of these conversations surrounding McCarthy speakership is that conservatives have not had seats on the Rules Committee, and the most conservative of the House,

the House Freedom Caucus, definitely haven't. So it is a would be a huge boon to conservative policy reform, which of course Heritage is interested in, and to some extent leading if there are more conservatives on the Rules Committee that there will be a direct correlation between their membership on that committee and seeing more conservative bills get to the floor. Well, and I think one of the and and that's why, you know, it's important because regardless who

ends up being the speaker, why should anyone have absolute power? Right? We don't want anyone in any position of authority in the United States to have absolute power. In fact, that's the antithesis of what the United States is supposed to stand for. You know, we need these checks and balances,

we need to balance out that power. And you know, I think one of the other concerns too, is the ability to make points of order on the floor of regarding amendments that aren't Germaine and far too often what we see in in Congress and what goes on to Capitol Hills. You've all these massive bills with so many things in it that aren't even relevant, like what the bill is supposed to be about. Uh. And and that's how we get a lot of garbage that ends up

getting passed through Congress. It's so true. I mean, this week, I've taken so many barbs. It's far fewer than the than the twenty members, for sure, but so many barbs for saying that this is not chaos, or if it is chaos, it's welcome chaos, because the real chaos, to your point, in the House has been they haven't passed a budget in over a decade. The one member can't

offer an amendment without getting permission from the speaker. For for Americans who just in their common sense say that doesn't make sense, they would be right, because a well functioning legislative body, especially one that is apportioned according to population, needs to be as little d democratic or as as democratic as it can and and these rules stand in the way of an individual member being able to represent

his or her constituents. So what all of this is about is, as we like to say, returning to regular order. What regular order means is that you have a House that passes a budget. You have a House that actually, when it says it's going to give members three days to read a bill before they have to vote on it, does so, and a House where the committee agenda is posted.

None of that has been going on. And the reason that none of that has been going on isn't just the terrible problem you mentioned, which is the centralization of power in the speaker's hands, personified by Nancy Pelosi, but something even more defarious, and that is that K Street lobbying firms right bills and write the scripts of how those bill debates are going to go, which means there aren't any debates. All of this well, not a complete win,

yet I think does signify that we're beginning. Good guys are beginning to get grips on the swamp in terms of House rules and proceedings, and we can convert that into some conservative policy wins, even if it's just two or three this spring, then I think we're beginning to

take back Washington for the American people. Well, and what's interesting too, is that you know, we're talking about Congress, which has an atrocious approval ratings, So the vast, vast, vast majority of Americans do not approve of the way that Congress does business, and then here you have people trying to change the way Congress does business and they're getting attacked. So it's like, you know what you mean, it's it's kind of nothing makes sense these days. No,

it's like everything is inverted. You know, you're like you My first reaction to all of this, I saw that this was going to happen, uh New Year's Eve, New Year's Day, was this is awesome. And then even friendly news outlets, friendly news commentators, friends to both of us, their first responses I thought were really off base. I won't call them out because I think they were well intentioned, but they were thinking, this isn't how it's supposed to work.

And I'm sitting there thinking, no, it is how it's supposed to work. This is democracy in action. But the swamp has conditioned us to some really bad habits and behavior. So even people who are genuine conservatives and very thoughtful news commentators were kind of duped. And it's been interesting to see you over the last several days that the conservative commentary on this has really come home, so to speak. We realize we need to talk like conservatives rather than

how the establishment wants us to. Well, that's a great point, you know, And part of it is so I remember banging on Lou Dobbs when I was first getting started in in media, and I was trying to explain the appropriations process, and he asked me, point blank, Lisa, do you think the audience's eyes are glazed over? It was like I hadn't thought about it. I thought it was interesting,

you know. But but so part of the challenge and communicating a lot of this is explaining, you know, trying to get across of why all this stuff matters and why they want, you know, why we should be taking back the reins of power, you know. And part of that, you know, when you had mentioned the budget and we look at this, you know, one point seven trillion dollar on amnibus. We've got trillions of dollars spent during COVID on quote unquote relief which went to you know, things

like building uh stadiums and stuff like that. Uh, you know, you've got uh, you know, we know Congress can't read you know, four thousand and are pages and no matter of a couple of hours, right Uh. And then so anyway, so so we've got like this failure to past appropriations bills. We've got all this spending, how do you explain to the American people, You know, I guess why and over

thirty one trillion dollar debt matters? Or why in appropriations getting those bills done in the in the regular order for appropriations process matters. Yeah. I think the way we we sometimes explained it, and I'm guilty of this, is is you divide up the thirty one trillion by the number of Americans and you say, you see it matters. It's a really big number. And I tried this out on my own kids, and they looked at me and said, Dad, um,

that's so much money. I can't even comprehend it. And I think most Americans react that way, that that's so many zeros after the thirty one they can't comprehend it. So I think the much more effective way is to draw the connection between spending that money on different examples of plans, whether it be your tax money on a you know, on a football stadium halfway across the country.

That football stadium might be a good idea for those people there, let them pay for it rather than me, or as a sort of my favorite examples, Lisa the amount of money we're spending on ridiculous programs and education that just on their face aren't about education. They're really about a very radical agenda very few Americans agree with.

In other words, to show that the whole process is built to be not transparent, and we know that anything that doesn't have the light of day generally is not going to be good, especially when it's in Washington, d C. And then when you get to the actual nuts and bolts of the budget, not only just the sheer size of it, but the examples of what we're spending money on, for that matter, including some defense programs, which is a real sensitive point for Republicans who are defense hawks, you

begin to understand that those whole processes oriented around making the most power, creating the most power in Washington, d C. Freedom is a zero sum thing. It's you know, if it's a if it's a pie and the government's taking seven eighths of that, we only get one. We're not able to make a bigger pie. And so what we have to understand is that there is a direct correlation between the lack of transparency in the process plus the amount of money being spent and a decrease in our

own self governance. Quick break back with Dr Kevin Roberts. I hope more people have opened their eyes because I know, you know, COVID was a real awakening moment of me of just realizing how little power we really have over our own lives these days, you know, and how much the people in charge, you know, how they don't believe in individual liberty and they don't believe in the things

this country as supposed to stand for. So, you know, to your point, the more power that Congress seeds to the executive branch, or the more that uh, these you know, institutions don't do their jobs and the way they're supposed to, we end up in the position where we've were during COVID, in the direction we're going in, where you know, we really have a government that's working against us, whether for it as opposed to for us. Yeah, that's exactly right.

And and and to really underscore that point, I think about the natural reaction most conservatives have to Washington's power, and this is this is this information. I'm just going to point out a flaw in that, and that inclination is to put more emphasis on state power, more emphasis on so called local control, well, the problem, you know, another two dots to connect the problem with that amount of federal spending is that it begins to put guard

rails on what states and localities can do. And so if we experience more direct influence over those elected officials who are closest to us, our city councilmen, are county commissioners, are state legislators, perhaps even our governors, if their own authority is being undermined by the amount of power that Washington has, then you begin to see the picture, which is that that dysfunction in Washington has a direct effect on us in our daily lives. Talk to I'm going

to encourage your audience to do this. Talk to your city council member, Republican or Democrat or independent, and ask them what's the what's the influence of Washington spending on your town, spending on your city spending? It dominates it. And so what what the government has tried to do is established this one to one relationship with us, with

each citizen. That's not what the founders wanted, because what they wanted was to diffuse power as much as they could across many different communities and people so that it's never centralized the process to sum up here and the spending are are all very bad signs of rotten fruit unfortunately. Power to to your point, and also part of it is, you know, having you know, governors and people who are willing to be fighters and stand up against the federal government.

You know, I live in Florida, very thankful to have someone like Governor to Santis who is not afraid to to have that fight. You know, I was arguing on on Twitter a while back that conservative governor should form a coalition like almost like the Freedom Caucus to some degree, because you know, we've got the r g A, but oftentimes you know that they're not really challenging the federal

powers as much as they should. And so you know, having some sort of like collective group of conservative governors because you know, we control so many triffect us throughout the country, I think that would go a long way of sort of banding together and uh, you know, fighting the federal government on a lot of these big issues.

We need to do so much more of that, and and that's one of the things that we're trying to do, and HERITAGEES has really helped to facilitate that kind of thing, especially in the two years left that we have in Biden's first term, not controlling both chambers of Congress, that perhaps even more powerful than the majority in the House, even if that majority ends up being effective and bold and all those things. To your point is if we have five or or a dozen conservative governors who are

banding together. We've seen a little bit of that with the border security issue. You've seen Governor to Santis and Governor Nome, then Governor Doc really help out Governor Abbot and Texas who was bearing the front of of Biden's nonsense at the border. We also saw it a little bit on healthcare back when Obamacare was a debate. But I'll also mention a huge success story, and it's it's

under Obama's Clean Power Plan. There was a formal interstate compact, which has been used several times in our country's history, where about ten or twelve states got together and said we are just not going to implement these policies. That was crucial. Even though that ended up being the Clean Power Plan just struck down in court, it was crucial to building a public awareness about how bad that policy is.

So I think, moving forward and quickly, we need to pick those two or three issues where we could really help ban some conservative governors together, to paraphrase Buckley here stand out for our history and say inmanti of governors even holding a press conference together and saying this is how we're going to keep the government in check on even during COVID or whatever the issue is. And they're all saying the same thing or holding the line that

says a lot more. And you know, just an individual governor waging these fights and then getting bludgeoned by you know, a progressive media and people that are carrying the water for the left, which is a lot of people these days. You know, I wanted to ask you, looking ahead, looking at this Congress, what do you want to see from Republican let House. Well, I want to see a good combination of three things. First, oversight and a proper amount of oversight. I'll explain a little bit what I mean

by that. Secondly, some shorter term tactical victories which I know may die in the Senate, but it's important for the House Republicans to exert the control that they have. And and thirdly, one or two long term visionary bills that of course we know will not pass the Senate, and even if they would be vetoed by Biden. But I'm going to start with those, and the reason is that I think the greatest thing that's missing in the conservative movement right now is an aspirational vision of what

a more conservative governance looks like. And so at Heritage, we're we're we're helping to write a bill that would eliminate the U. S Department of Education. Now, you and I both know that if that happens, it's going to be take a lot of years. But that's the kind of thing that, as one example, the House Republicans should pass because it will show Americans this is the fix to all of the things you're feeling in your local

school districts. The more tactical, short term knife fighting, as I like to call it, would be things like refusing to implement any program in the Department of Homeland Security that's not zealously focused on border security, refusing to fund the eight seven thousand r S agents. I know that that money has been allocated for the current budget cycle. But going back to our conversation about the Rules Committee, if there are conservatives on that Rules Committee not to

sort of too deeply an inside baseball. Here there is a way to retract that funding and and instead go hire more border patrol agents. These aren't just messaging bills. They actually can improve the quality of lives for many Americans, especially on the border. But then the first thing I mentioned, which is oversight, something that that Heritage is doing through our Oversight project. We need to make sure that the House Republicans are picking two or three gigantic oversight battles.

I happen to think they're about the border, the FBI, maybe some of the diversity equity and inclusion nonsense, and education, and we need to have them conduct investigations about those things. But it cannot just be investigations if if all we're doing is putting on a show for conservative media outlets, Heritage has no interest in that. We want those oversight investigations to lead to policy change ultimately so that we

restore freedom to the American people. Some combination of those three things I think not only will be successful and actually mildly improve americans lives this year, but very importantly for the election cycle, it's going to show candidates for every office from president down to state legislature the kinds of things you need to talk about in order to build a governing majority, something like the Benghazi Committee, where it's just sort of a you know, we need something

like a Church committee or you know, where we're having sort of methodical, thoughtful conversations and also structural ways that we want to change things moving forward, because I really think the only way this country survives, in my opinion, is to have people in government that are dedicated to destroying government, because we've just gotten so big, We've lost so much control of our lives, We've lost so much

liberty during COVID. I mean, it just escalated so quickly that the only way that the Republic survives is people that want to destroy government. As It's just the way I see it. Yeah, that's exactly right, And we both run the risk of being called insurrectionists for saying that, including by some former Conservatives. But the point you're making

is a crucial one. Any member of a previous political generation in this country, and I dare say, Republican or Democrat, who has plopped into this era that we're in, looking at the power and and sort of nefarious exercise of that power by government, especially during COVID, would be horrified and so anyone who's intellected office, whether it's state legislature, but especially in d C, needs to have the mindset,

especially towards the administrative state, of destroying it. And even this very day, Lisa I said something like that and someone said, you know, some smart guy said, well, that doesn't sound very conservative, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, we have so much work to do and in helping Americans understand that this republic is very far gone. You know,

we we might be in the last chapter. I happen to think we're not in the last chapter, but we're at that pivot point and that that climax of the plot where the good guys have to rise up otherwise we're going to lose it. All right, quick commercial break more with the press or the Herrhage Foundation. I mean, if you really look at what's holding us together, it's you know, things like the First Amendment, which they're destroying, as we saw with the FBI working with big tech

to essentially skirt the first event to violate it. Uh, you know, Second Amendment. You know, these things that still give individual liberty and still give power to the people, which is why you know, obviously they're trying to destroy it. But you know, to to your point, it's really you know, we're kind of hanging on to a structural like a structural skeleton is really what we've got left of holding

us together. Um. You know, how difficult do you think, you know, regardless if it's you know, McCarthy, whoever the speaker is, it's gonna be very difficult to obviously keep I think there's two twenty two in line, uh, to to try to not even in line, you know, really just to try to hear the interest of all of its members and you know, kind of come together on stuff. What do you think that's gonna look like? Well, it's

gonna go one of two ways. If the I'll give you the worst case scenario first, although I think it's a little more likely to go better. The worst case scenario is is totally dysfunctional because the Democrats are so good at driving wedging wedges into Republican caucuses and obviously they've got the complicit nature of the media. Um. And then of course Republicans can can do that to themselves too. And if that's the case, then there will be very

little that happens. And you know, Biden's handlers end up running a good reelection campaign and there's a real race.

And point four, I happen to think that I'm mildly in this camp that there's a decent shot that if the Republicans focus on some combination of of what I mentioned, very selective, persistent oversight and investigations that lead the policy reforms on the border, the FBI, for example, very important focus on fiscal restraint, and then one or two other big issues that are you know, they're not going to

pass the Senate. President is not going to sign them, but you're giving the American people a sense of what the left is obstructing with all of their nonsense. Then I think that that looks successful. The open question is is there enough courage in house leadership, in Senate leadership on the Republican side to make that happen. That's where the work that you do, that we do, a heritage that regular Americans do is so important. I know that many people are on the brink of despair, many people

are fatigued or on the brink of fatigue. I'm just letting you know, and there's no hollow optimism here. I promise you that now is the time to dig deep, because if we can get this very slim, kind of lobbily Republican majority in the House to do just some fraction of that, then not only are we going to make americans lives better, now, we're going to set the foundation for which may be the last presidential electric electical. We have to take the republic back. You look at

the mail and ballot stuff happening as well. I really think that this is the last election that a Republican could win. And you really have to have a flawless candidate running a flawless campaign, making no mistakes, head down, hard working, disciplined and executing or you know, executing on on every level at full cylinders and and to the point you know, of trying to get things done with such a small majority in the House. You know, it really does come down to leadership. And if you have

good leaders at works. I mean, you look at the state of Florida, govern understand this one by twenty points. Even looking at Texas, you abbot cleaned up these people who have had the chance to lead with Republican you know politics, Republican UH policy positions can win the challenges in the House and the Senate. We have leaders but they're not being the one. They're not the ones that are being trusted with power. You know, we do have

transformational people. You know in the House, you've got people like Chip war or even you know Thomas Massey who really proved himself during COVID to be a leader, you know, Rampaul in the Senate. We we've got guys that can do it. It's just, you know, they're not the ones being trusted with power is the problem. That's the problem. And that's why, you know, a Heritage I'm so grateful we have a five O one C four, a campaign arm Heritage Action that's very active in all of these debates.

And and I guess the one bit of of optimism that I would inject into your your sober and accurate diagnosis is as I look at the ranks of state legislators on the conservative side, as I look at the new Conservative school board members, our movement is building a bench that's going to fill the potentially fill the ranks of members of the House and Senate. I think about j.

D Vance coming into the Senate. We need to get to the point and soon where we're we don't even have time to talk about the long list of people who are like j D and my good Friendship Roy and Thomas Massey. But I believe that is going to be that that that pivot cycle, not just one where the right defeats the left, but one where as evidence over the speaker battle the settle some scores internally and realizes what time it does in America, and and the time that it is is that it's it's not time

to be a moderate establishment Republican. It's time to go to Congress and govern on behalf of your people in their own freedoms upset with the fight that's happening now, you know. One, in addition to being process, it's also sort of a battle over the Republican party. And then secondly, we're not in status quo times anymore, you know, I mean we're in a completely different period of American history where you know, as as we're talking, will the republic

continue to stand? I mean, this isn't you know, This isn't ten years ago where you could get away with the status quo figure. I mean, this is a time where we're hanging on by a thread. And so if there was ever a time to have these fights to to to battle, it out to you know, be strong, to be messy. You know, now is the time because we don't have any time left. It's you know, sadly, it's like completely. I mean, I'm a natural optimist. I

think that comes from my face. Um as I tell people, I'll hopefully when in the next life, but this life seems to be a little bit in question. On my most optimistic days, I say we've got two election cycles to take the country back. I think more and more it might just be that very next one. And and to your point, the status quo is terrible for free people. And think about you. You've referenced COVID a couple of times. The United States of America just deferring, even under a

friendly administration. I dare say to the World Health Organization hopefully as conservative as we realize most institutions in this country and around the world have been co opted by the left. And we have to have the attitude of building our own, which includes rebuilding our own movement in the Republican Party. I more than think I know that this is going on. The question is will it Will it succeed quickly enough for it to bear fruit to

save the Republican that's an awakening moment for me. I think I sort of previously kind of took advantag edge of the fact we're a free nation and and sort of thinking that we're always going to be free and somehow we're immune to tyranny, and then COVID really just awakened me in the sense of we're not you know,

we are immune. We're not immune, and uh, you know, so that's why all these fights, even small ones, are important, and so you know, it's it's it was just an awakening for me, and I think for a lot of people, I hope as well. Uh, you know, Kevin, that's been

a really interesting conversation. Is there anything I'm missing that you want to convey to the audience in the conversation that we've had, anything important that you think people should know as we you know, look ahead here in terms of timeline and taking the republic back, Yes, what the House Republicans do this spring this year is really important. It really is. But I would argue that even more important than that will be the handful of legislative sessions

and states that are really influential. So the legislative agendas in Georgia and Florida in Texas other places I'm not thinking of right now, with with good legislators and governor, if those are successful, that's the blueprint for re establishing common sense and freedom in the country. And so I would just encourage people to pay as much attention to those and be as involved in those as they are in federal politics. What's going on in d C in

the last several days has been important. It isn't that it's a side show. It's just that we're better off when we're making that kind of policy progress in our state capitals, because that's going to become the policy agenda for the next time if we get it next time. For significant conservative control of the DC and in your state and local politics matters as much, if not probably more than you know some of these conversations we're having on the federal level. And I've got not given up

hope either. I still think we can turn the ship around. It's just we need to as your point, we need to be aware of what time it is and what's going on in the country. Kevin Roberts, appreciate your voice, Appreciate the work you're doing. Thank you for fighting for freedom, and thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate

your time, sir, my pleasure. We'll keep fighting. Take care m h. So that was Kevin Roberts, president of the Heritage Foundation, which with what I think is an important conversation about the future of the country, how we take power back from the government. I hope you enjoyed it. I want to thank you at home for listening. I want to thank John Castio, my producer, for putting the show together every Monday and Thursday, but you can listen throughout the week. Feel free to leave us to review,

leave us a rating on Apple Podcast. Always enjoy reading those Until next time.