This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline. I'm thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen, or visit them at lifeline dot org dot au.
Hello, Welcome to Conversations five. I'm Alison Sandy and I'm joined by my fellow Brave and courageous colleagues Liam Bartlett and Tim Clark.
Hi El Hi Tim, Morning, Liam. How are we well?
I'm much better now that I've been described as brave courageous.
It's true, you know, because there's no punches pulled in this podcast. We will shortly be joined by a very special guest. But first I wanted to turn your attention to this as you are all aware, there's been a big push for me his family to have her case far referred to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. If you haven't signed and shared the petition, please do so.
Amy's aunt has written to the Director of Public Prosecutions, Robert Owen recently and received this reply, dated the first of October twenty twenty four. Dear Miss Davey, thank you for your letter dated nineteenth September twenty twenty four. I acknowledge how difficult raising these matters again with my office is likely to be for you and your family. I understand you are seeking justice for Amy and that this
reflects the love and sense of dignity her memory deserves. However, I am unable to provide a materially different response from the one you received from the ODPP on the first of November twenty nineteen, where the former director advised you that the ODPP is not an investigatory agency and we do not have the power to independently investigate allegations or complaints. Now, just to clarify here, that is not what Anna was
asking for. Anna was just asking whether he could ask for Amy's file to refer to him, and was also asking for a meeting with him. Anyway, he goes on to say the odopp's sole function is to prosecute indubtable criminal offenses once charges have been laid by investigative agencies such as WA police. That function includes the assessment of the evidence gathered. If there is insufficient evidence, the ODPP
isn't able to proceed. Now again, my understanding is that the ODPP is the one that decides that Anyway, the ODPP has no power to investigate the conduct of other agencies or to assess whether an investigation by WA Police was insufficient. Again, that's not what Anna was asking. She's just asking, given that five years have now passed since they last saw it, they might want to take another
look at it with all the updated information. Anyway. In our letter to you dated first of November twenty nineteen, we indicated that an inquest into your niece death maybe an appropriate forum to ventilate the matter as you of race. An inquest into the death of your niece has now been completed and the findings were delivered by the Deputy State Coroner on ninth September twenty twenty one. The inquest
followed a cold case review by WA Police. Blah blah, blah blah goes into the whole history that we already know. The Deputy State Coroner did make some adverse comments about the standard of the initial police investigation and the limitations is placed on the current's ability to consider all relevant evidence. I have outlined this information only to ensure that you are informed about events to date. I understand you are likely to be very familiar with what has occurred, and
I mean no disrespect in doing so. At this time, the ODPP cannot undertake further steps so offer any other resolution of Amy's case. Your sincerely, Robert OMSC, Director of Public Prosecutions. So what do you guys think of that?
Not surprising, but still disappointing, Like it's a rehash of arguments that we've just we've heard, and we've heard and then we've heard from.
Different authorities and it's just.
Yeah, just wholly disappointing and another example of buck passing really live.
Yeah, that's incredible, now, am I right? Just recapping on that. So twice in that letter, the current Director of Public Prosecutions references the previous correspondence with Amy Wensley's family, which is dated the first in November twenty nineteen, twice twice and so once in context. The first time he mentioned that date five years ago. He mentions that date because he says nothing's changed since the previous person was sitting in my seat. That's what he's saying, isn't he quite clearly?
So they didn't do it, So I can't do it, That's what Robert Owen is saying. So for him to can't Blanche say, sorry, nothing's changed, see you later. It really is practically and technically pathetic. So can I can I I've got I've got Anna's reply to that letter that Robert Owen sent her.
Do you mind if I just read this out? How we need to get the bleep machine ready?
Look, I saw Anna's first version, so this one I've refined a little bit, helped to refine a bit.
Anyway, keep going, yeah, no, no, no, I think this has been through the censorship. It's been through the filter, the special filter we have here. But this is this is pretty good. So I'm just going I'll just I'll read for the sake of our listeners. Dear mister Owen. So this is Anna's reply to that pathetic response from the director. She says, thank you for replying to my recent letter and for confirming your office hasn't seen Amy's
case for at least five years. In twenty nineteen, Amy's case was still being treated as a suicide by w WA police. Great point to my she goes on. Now, in twenty twenty four, Amy's case is being referred to as a homicide, and there is a considerable amount of new evidence now available. As per my previous letter. Would you be willing to meet with me to discuss not an unreasonable request, I would think, she goes on. Or is it a case that you won't seek any information
from WA Police unless they raise it with you. Please forgive my ignorance, says Anna, But given my family seems to be at the mercy of WA Police, I just wanted to find out from you what it would take for your office to reconsider Amy's case. If, as a family we don't believe Amy's case is being handled properly, what avenues do we have Do we go back to
the way Corruption and Crime Commission. I'm sure you can understand our frustration, particularly given recent information that's come to light on Amy's case via Channel seven's podcast The Truth about Amy. I am devastatingly disappointed that I've had to fight the system for more than ten years now because
of a terrible mistake made by WA Police. I don't think it's asking too much, says Anna to seek help from people like you who are in a position to provide some but for whatever reason, don't seem to want to offer any assistance at all. Regards Anna, Davy pretty much sums it up.
Yeah, typically strong, typically forthright, typically intelligent, and typically not unreasonable. Not an unreasonable request when you've got an unsolved, suspicious death of a young mother, you'd think police, DPP, Attorney General would have the gumption to say, okay. First of November twenty nineteen, I got some advice. The coroner had
the information that she did during the inquest. But it's twenty twenty four and things have changed, Things have moved on, We have more information, and we also, to be blunt, we have a public push to relook at this case.
And we know there is a further investigation confirmed by police. There's a quote new team doing that further investigation unquote right now as we speak.
So we don't know whether it was Robowen that asked the police to do that. We don't think so. I think he probably might have mentioned that in his letter. So the police have gone away listens been given information via crime stoppers or wherever, and thought right, we need a body of workers to work up a body of work on this new information totally, and it seems to me we go to the AG. He says, sorry, cannot do as Allison has done numerous times. Anna has gone
to the DPP please, this is what we can do. No, no, can do, Because in twenty nineteen there was all this information, and in twenty twenty one the coroner came up with this conclusion that there's not enough.
There's not enough. Three years on, we.
Are now and we go to WA Police, respectfully but firmly, asking for an interview with Cole Blanche or whomever they wish to place before us to answer some questions that we want to ask, and we are politely declined. So you can probably say it's in my voice measure of the frustration. Imagine, imagine how the Wensley family have felt having to do this for ten years.
Well yeah, and you know, it just comes back to that whole thing of just Anna needing a champion, just someone who's willing to do their job. We're not even asking anyone to go out there on a limb, right, This is just part of their duties as a person who works for the public service. Public service being being
the operative words here. So it's it just seems like people just so happy to slam the door in the faces of Amy's family, who, as we have already established, have a very good I mean all they want to do is go through the process, right, They're not asking for special favors or anything like that, just going through the democratic judicial legal process to see if justice can be reached for Amy Wensley, for their beloved niece, slush daughter, slush mother. You know, it's it's really sad.
Yeah, that's that's an interesting point. I mean, we're not we're not even asking anyone to be entirely creative with this. Certainly not go out on a limb. We're just talking about things that you can do within the rules, like, within the processes that are already in place and the guidelines that have already been long established. It's not a big deal. And you know, I mean, we can use as many cliches as we like, but it is a fact that, you know, this is supposed to be justice
for everybody because it's public. You know, the courts of public the police are publicly funded, the DPP's office is publicly funded. You know, sometimes these people, I think need to be reminded they're actually being paid by the taxpayer. Again, you know, the cliche about the duty and obligation and service. Maybe we need to remind them time and time again that guys, you're there to help people. You know, we're there to get a result for the public.
And what irks me is they point to process as well when you ask them about it, Well, well we did this, we did this, we did this. But we know all that flowed from a process was it was completely botched right at the start. Right the process was there for the detectives to call in the homicide squad and to seal off that forensic area so there would be no doubts and there will be no lingering unknowns
and frustrations. That's what started all that. They stuffed the process up right at the start, and everything that's flowed from that has been trying to play catch up. And you now can't say, in my humble opinion, you know, you shouldn't hide behind an inquest that we've explored and picked apart and other people other than us believe was flawed as well. And you can't. You can't say there was an investigation in twenty nineteen. Five years is a
long time. There's there's a whole there's a whole other file to to pick through, and that's what they should be doing.
Heah, And as Anna so pointedly reminds us, you know, those two references by the Director of Public Prosecutions to twenty nineteen. That's when police were very much entrenched with this whole suicide theory. They wouldn't hear anything else to him, as you know, well they put it forward out the inquest exactly very strongly.
Yeah. I mean so, so, how.
Can the DPP be relying upon a time when the police had totally the opposite view and now the.
Police have publicly listed it and offered a reward for an unsolved homicide.
Doesn't make sense?
Does which FI has showness and has also shown us that some people in there were upset that that was the case. But well why you asked the question why were they upset? Well, you know because because you called it as it was a first up and no it's not.
Yeah.
Can I just mention here, speaking of the inquest, the person who was seen to be representing the Commissioner at the inquest, as far as I can tell, was the Major Crime Division Detective Superintendent Robert Scantlebury. Rob Scantlebury anyway, now direct quote from the inquest here. I reviewed both investigations, the Coronial Brief, the coronial report, and quote there is
no criminality identified in relation to this matter. He then says, I cannot put any other person in that room, and so therefore I cannot establish any criminality in relation to this. He then goes on to highlight the limitations of the testing done, which by their biomechanical experts to justify his position that was the closed minded, inflexible attitude existing in Wa police at the time, and we're yet to see
evidence that that's not the case now. And of course, given quickly and Owen's replies to the family, it's really hard to have much faith that there seems to be a willingness to have a resolution in Aimy's case.
I can't understand why he can say that, or how he can say that I cannot put any other person in that room.
Presumably he's talking about the bedroom Amy's bedroom.
Yeah.
I can come up with two or three scenarios just off the top of my head where I can easily put somebody else in that room, but it requires further investigation to get the evidence of that person being in that room. I mean, but that's the police job. That's not I'm not looking for a conclusion on a fairy tale from Rob Scantlebury. I mean, I want them to do their job. You know the thing that really annoys
me about this whole thing. And I get annoyed, you know, on behalf of the family and just personally because I think, gee, you know, you wouldn't want to get into a serious bit of strife in this state at the moment, would you.
But it's the level of openness that's all we're asking for. Like, it's not it's you know, I can't.
Believe that this goes back to requests for interview and requests for information. Alison tim As, you know that whole closed door approach, the entire closed door approach. It's ironic because the police have a door very similar to Amy's bedroom where it doesn't seem to be a handle on the inside. No one opens it. But I don't understand why you just can't talk about this because I have the naive presumption that we're all on the same side.
In other words, now that we have a million dollar reward for a homicide, we say, okay, it's a homicide. So in terms of public safety for everyone else who's still alive, isn't there a concern? But what about just the rest of it being an open book for the police them being able to talk about the possibilities like, for instance, getting fresh eyes on the case outside wa Now, Tim, you know there's a number of cases here where they've
done this in the past with cold case reviews. They've brought somebody in from the East, or even somebody from America or whatever, you know, from Britain. There was the fellow who came over you know, I mean, who is looking at this? Given the Rob Scandalbury quote that you've just given us, Allison, you know, what's the makeup of this new team investigating it?
For example?
Is it the same old coppers who had that view that the DPP quoted in November of twenty nineteen. Is it somebody else? Have they got fresh eyes? Do they have a biased view towards that? Are they thinking more about protecting the thin blue line than they are about looking at fresh evidence or collecting fresh evidence? I mean, you know, can we have fresh eyes on this? Is it a good idea?
To me?
It would be essential, right because you know, there has to be there just has to be you know, pressures issues. If you're an existing homicide detective, you would hope there'd be homicide detectives would be tasked with.
Doing this work.
You'd know someone, right, You'd know you'd have to have known someone or work someone with that down the track, who had who had involvement in this case. The other issue at the moment in Western Australia is there's there's
not there's not that many homicide detectives to go around. Lin, my colleague got the West Australian Phil Hickey, who has some of the best police contacts in this state, has been talking to homicide detectives and they are absolutely chock a blot with work, slammed, absolutely slammed, as I'm sure many many other police forces across Australia are. Because for whatever reason, this has been a particularly violent gear.
In Western Australia.
There's been some horrible crimes, domestic violence desks that we've all heard about and regional homicides.
They all take.
Work, right, You've all got obviously, you've got you've got a victim, You've got a family also grieving, also wanting justice, also wanting information, also wanting every lead chase down. So I hate to say it, but how far up or down the priority list?
Yeah, hay on for me, Well, more the case, more the case go to the Attorney General's office, see if you can wake up John Quigley or somebody close to him to get them to wake him up and say, hey, listen, how about an ex graser addition to our budget. Because we're struggling with serious crime. What about giving us a I don't know, one off payment. Give us a boost of a couple of million dollars. You have money coming
out of your ears from the royalties. You're always banging on about it, Roger Cooks telling them what the whole state, what a great job they're doing economically. How about just a few million of that will use a little bit of it to get maybe a deputation from somebody in the Eastern States or maybe recently retired, somebody with a great reputation, maybe even someone like a Ron Idle's that we had on the program. I mean, you know, fantastic reputation.
Bring them over for four weeks, get them to work on the case, put a set of fresh eyes on it. Make a consultancy payment. What's the big deal. Yeah, I'll take your point, But it's not an excuse to Oh no, no, no, no, I wasn't trying to make it excense.
It's the will.
It's the will, exactly, it's the will, and it's the willingness to think slightly outside the process and slightly outside the box and say, well, look, we've promised this, we've said it publicly, we're going to do it.
Why don't we do it properly? Well exactly, I mean, we've got consultants for everything else. Maybe if they work for metro Net, we'd get it done. That's how far over budget is that? What billion or ten billion is it? At the last count.
There's a lot of noughts at the end of our building.
Anyway, this is about people, not about machine And.
I'd face it, the reason we are in this predicament is because of the unwillingness to investigate properly in the first place. We point them in the right direction. It's not it shouldn't be as onerous as as it would have been. They've just done the forensics. But look that said, you know, this is more than just a case that wasn't handled properly at the beginning. They owe it to Amy's family to see it through. This is a suspicious death that has a lot of repercussions if it's not solved,
potentially so there's no excuse. They just have to do it. They can't just say, oh, they were competing priorities. Well, every life matters. Anyway. I've put some questions to the WA Police, new questions to Waypole Commissioner Cole Blanche, and we haven't obviously got replies back yet, but we will
and we'll inform you of those hopefully next week. Internal emails we obtained under freedom of information law shows later as last year, seen your high ranking police officers still adamant there's no possibility Amy's death was anything but suicide. How can Amy's family be confident that WA Police is interested in solving Amy's case giving this closed minded attitude
within WA Police ranks. Two, given how much new evidence that's now available compared to the last time the ODBP reviewed Amy's file at least five years ago, why hasn't it been referred to them already? And three? What more does WA Police require for Amy's case to be referred to the ODPP. So anyway, we'll see what we get
back from that. But it's it's just really important. I think that it's just I just like you know, when you look at what happens with other deaths you know, like Alison Baiden Clay in Queensland for example, her death, you know, and the Lynn Dawson case, you know that came back so many years later. Who chooses which is important or which isn't.
Now that's a very very very good question.
I think it probably depends on how embarrassing it might be if you did put the resources in, because it might be a different outcome.
Yeah. Well, I mean I would have thought a potential risk to society as well would have to be a factor that they could consider if if you know, this is something that could result in further violence against women or yeah, I mean all those sorts of factors should be taken into account. Right, is that the job criteria?
It is the criteria. You're right, You're dead right, it's I mean it's basic policing one oh one, isn't it. I mean, that's that's your that's your what do they call it?
Mission statement? Tim?
Yeah, you know that's on the canteen at police headquarters. So please catch the bad guys before you go home. Clock off.
It's not difficult. It's not difficult to work out.
A former detective has made a big living out of a podcast called I catch killers. That's what people want, right, and it's a popular podcast because people want to tune in to homicide detectives catching killers.
Yeah, well I heard them. I heard the head of the police union on the radio the other day talking about their their pay dispute with the state government and their paid claim and they were asking for two different I think they were asking for or was it eight and a half percent in the first year and five percent in the second year and the state government so far won't come to the party. And I had two thoughts on that. A. A. I think most police officers
thoroughly deserve arise. Yeah, absolutely they do because they are underpaid. They are underpaid for what they do. But secondly, guys, girls, if we're going to pay you, can you please try to catch the criminals?
Yeah?
I mean I have obviously huge respect and sympathy actually for a lot of the detectives that are tasked with, you know, cleaning up the most horrible messes on a daily basis and the impact that it has on their personal lives as well as the sort of professional reputations as well.
But has gone back.
To to the earlier point public servants, Right, they're two to protect and serves, I think is the motto that's on the side of American police cars. So and that goes worldwide. And yeah, it's just it's just so frustrating to come up against the same closed doors that Anna and her family have for so long. And it also just you know, adds another level of admiration to Anna for being able to keep going and not just.
Not just go away and cool up in a ball in a corner somewhere.
Speaking of Anna, she is our guest, and she is waiting. She's waiting for the host to accept. So whenever, Oh my god, I'm here, can you hear me?
Are you all right?
God? I was getting really nervous waiting for you guys to bloody let me join. It's like having a little private party without me.
Well we are, but it's not complete without no.
No, that the level of indignation is too low. So tell us, Anna, what's the latest. How are you feeling at the moment? And you know what's going on. You know, we've read your letter to the DPP, we've read the letter out that they sent to you. I imagine you're feeling a bit frustrated at the moment.
Well, frustration It's not new for me, Alison, I've had over ten years of it now, but I have to say it is disappointing, but it's not surprising. I'm used to this sort of response passing the buck and people in positions of authority telling me that they can't help. It's like the people in charge are all playing a game of hot potato, and Amy's case is the ball being thrown around to the next person just to get
rid of it. But this sort of response doesn't deter me or stop me from continuing the fight for Amy. It just means I have to keep trying and hope that one day someone in a position of authority has the courage to stand up and help.
And Liam here, how are you going?
I'm good, Thanks Liam.
Look, I wanted to explore with you that I touched upon a subject. This is very basic, but I think openness, the ability for some of these people in high places to be just open to the public, to the family about the whole deal, I really find quite troubling, especially in the West Australian context of where we have had a lot of problems with policing generally. Can can you talk to me a little bit about the police's attitude from the police commissioner down, you know, how open are
they to family? And I asked that question of knowing that you have a sort of a dedicated family liaison officer, but can you let our listeners know sort of you know, how that works and how often the contact takes place. I'm not asking you to disclose what they say to you, because you know that it has to be a degree of integrity there.
But how's it going.
Well, it's really difficult because you know I've said to you before that over ten years now, I've lost count of how many liaison officers we've had. But in the beginning, you get told nothing. Liam. There is no one there keeping you up to date, telling you what's going on. And it took almost three years before I actually found anything out about Amy's death. And that's a long time for family to have to wait to hear what's happening, what's going on, what took place that night. That's a
very long time. And there's no one there that's willing to assist you and help you and give you that information. And you can write to the police commissioner. You can write to these high ranking officials, but they close rank. You know, they don't they don't tell you anything. It's just all a fob off. Like what I've said, I've been getting for over ten years now. But I have had some liaison officers who have been really polite. They appear to be very caring towards our situation, which is
really nice. But I mean, it's felt like most of the liaison officers police liaison officers are there as a buffer between me and high ranking officials because I'll ask a question and so many times I've had the response I'm not sure, I don't know, I can't say it's under investigation, and you don't actually get an answer. They're a buffer, really. But the current liaison officer I have at the moment, he and one that I had for quite a few years, appear to be very responsive to
my inquiries. They can't always tell me things, but you know, at least they respond at least they call me if I ask, at least they respond to emails. But still it's very limited in what they can tell me.
How salective are they though? Do they ever ring you to tell you that they're being progress.
In the past ten years, I've had one liaison officer who couldn't always tell me everything that's going on, but at least reached out without prompting from me. He reached out to me to tell me little pieces of information that he was allowed to tell me. But it's not like their forthcoming and.
It's it's Tim here.
Like I would think that your everyday listener, who you know, who God forbid, would never have to go through a situation like that. They would have a different impression. They would think, oh, well, you know that the police are.
They'd be.
They'd be so they'd be really keen to keep the family informed. They'd be they'd be wanting to provide information, you know, you know, possibly on a you know, a sort of need to know basis, but you know, as soon as something new would crop up, they want to tell you. But from from your experience, it's the exact opposite. It seems that they try and keep you, or have tried to keep you at arm's length as much as possible.
I mean, do you think that's because it's you or do you think that's a general Have you spoken to other families that have gone through this.
I think I've got to say the answer to your question, Tim, I was exactly what you just explained. I was that person who thought that the police are going to keep us informed, They're going to tell us what's going on, they're going to keep us updated. But that was early on in the day. I thought that, and I was
completely wrong. It's not like that at all. And I think I don't know if it's because it's this particular case, because it was so badly messed up at the start that they were trying to, you know, sweep it under the carpet and make it go away. So I don't know if that's why. But I have met someone else.
I've actually met another aunt, Janine Mackney, who is the aunt of Breanna Robinson, and it's her sister's daughter who died, and she's been fighting for her niece's case as well, and I think she's come up against the same thing that the police don't want to be so forthcoming with information. It's very difficult. It's very very hard, especially because in her situation with Janine's niece, the police deemed it a suicide immediately as well. Another young woman in an early twenties, same thing.
And this is the case of a young woman who actually fell out of an elevated flat on the.
Gold That's correct. So you know, it was actually really nice to meet another aunt that was going through the same thing, and she understood everything everything that I was saying. So yeah, she's come up against something very similar. And I wonder if that's because at the start the police called it a suicide. So I don't know.
Ron Iddle's had that case in Shepard and that he talked about that he revisited and made stuff that one of the first instance too, But it was fine for him to solve that one. You know. It's just I mean, the law's meant to be deterrent too, right, Like the whole idea is that you want to discourage people from killing other people on the basis that they'll go to jail.
It just seems kind of weird in this case that you know, a crime potentially has occurred, the evidence certainly points that way to a crime occurring, and that it needs to be you know, measured out and go through the system, like that's supposedly what it's supposed to do. But it hasn't gone through the system because that whole denial of a crime having existed. I just wanted to read this to you to Anna. This is from Melissa High Team The Truth about Amy. Such a fantastic podcast
and so close to home for me. I lived in that area and was in a domestic violence relationship at the same time Amy died. I'm not surprised the police ruled a suicide. Domestic violence wasn't a high priority for the police in that area. I personally reached out for help from the police and the Armadale and Serpentine areas and didn't get any assistance. I was actually told by police that the person I was in a relationship with had over thirty reports slash phone calls for domestic violence
issues in the past, but from pre as partners. In my opinion, there was a real culture within the place that domestic violence wasn't important. My heart breaks for Nancy and Amy's babies. Keep up the good work, keep fighting for Amy, so you know we are not alone.
Sadly, I can only hope that the attitudes of police are evolving for the better and in a positive way, and changing for the better as well because so many women. There are so so many women, and I guess it's just I don't know if it's in the media more now or whether I'm more aware of it because of our own situation with Amy, but it's just shocking.
Well, I think it is being reported more because of the public consciousness and the push to shine a light on what is a scourge in this country. I have had lawyers tell me, you're on and off the record, that the cases are getting more frequent, they're getting more serious.
I know judges are sensensing more harshly because they have to, they've been told to, but more obviously that they want to also send a message to the public that this is being taken seriously and there will be serious repercussions. But then you go back to a case like Amy's, and it was it's obvious in twenty fourteen, it wasn't.
It wasn't even it didn't seem to me that it was even seen through a prism of domestic violence on that night and in the days that followed, And even now you're having to push and push and push for authorities to get to see the whole picture.
Right.
And we talked about it before, Anna that that in that in quest, there was a there seemed to be a lot of sympathy for David Simmons, and maybe that sympathy should have been cheered around a bit more.
Well. I actually read through some of the Current's inquest finding I couldn't read the whole thing because it just makes me so angry. But there were comments and things that people said in there that just made me sick. You know, I jotted some of them down, But is it okay if I bring some of them up?
Go on? Yeah? Yeah, please, absolutely so.
When David Simmons was asked what Amy meant in her text to him when she said she was over being a no Hoper, David said it definitely wasn't him to change. He did everything for that family, for them. I don't know if she was on drugs or not. That's why I wanted to know if there were any illicit drugs
in her system. I thought that's really comical that he says that he wasn't the one to change, because I have no doubt Amy's no Hope of comment was more about her having enough of being in a no Hoper relationship with him, and I think the comment is very tell. She says she's had enough. That's what I think. She says she's had enough and she wants to try for a better life. And and that was the decision she decided to finally act upon on the twenty sixth of
June twenty fourteen. She hated drugs. The whole thing was about her telling him to stop doing that. And it's very well documented in the coroner's finding too, that he had an alcohol and substance abuse problem. Yet he says he wasn't the one who needed to change. There's just so much in there.
Anna. We were talking the other day with Ron and I think somebody else sent another message about whether David simmons phone was seized by the police. Can you have an answer to that, don't you?
I do so. After Amy died, he took Amy's car and the children and drove to Nancy's house, and when he got to the house, he told Nancy what he told her. Nancy became very distressed. She blamed him and accused him of causing it, and she pushed him and he fell on all fours onto the front lawn and when that happened, his phone, that he says was water damaged,
fell out of his pocket and there it remained. So when the police became involved the next day, Nancy gave them Amy's phone back and told them that his phone had fell on her front lawn and she handed that over to them.
So they've got well they had the phone. Whether or not they've still got it remains to be seen.
That's correct.
So did they go through it?
My understanding. So I'm not one hundred percent sure, But my understanding is it was water damaged and they couldn't access it.
Well, yeah, hang on a minute. I mean there's a lot of technology around you. You can dive into water damaged phones for data retrieval.
It's not a big deal.
Well, they couldn't get into Amy's iPhone at that point, but technology advanced and they were able to do that many years later. But I don't know if the police kept his phone or handed it back to him.
But why wasn't that sort of that's sort of present detail explored by the coroner when she's hearing him, you know, make those sort of generic statements about Amy's drug usage. I mean, why isn't that cross referenced with, you know, with a call to provide information from his phone to see what goes on there. I mean, it's pretty basic stuff, isn't it. Or have we got well, I mean, who's running the joint inspectacles.
I just want to go back to a question that we got that you read out or I read out yes last week, Paul's question about why Amy didn't use a dominant hand to defend herself. Now I've revisited the files on that, so just looking and it was obviously in spotlight as well, and anyone can look that up. So Amy was facing the like her legs was stretched out towards the door, so she was facing the door that the door opened on her left though, as I said, and so to get in. So but obviously it was
a right temple. You know, there's a whole idea of her cowering. Potentially that if she was cowering at the time, she would have had her right temple up towards the door, which is potentially, you know, why she was shot in her right temple, but certainly with you know, holding her left arm out anyway, it's just something else to consider with all this, because it's it's just all part and parcel of the whole investigation and looking at the information in microscopic detail.
Allison, I had someone, a police officer actually say to me that they thought with all the with the argument that was going on in that bedroom, that Amy's ended up in that corner, because that's what you do when you feel in danger, you know, you hide in a corner.
And he said to me that he felt that Amy was using her dominant hand to brace herself against the wall and use her hand to lower herself to the floor, and when she got to the floor, she ended up sitting on it, and as the gun's to her head, she's used a left hand to try and push the gun away or well.
That makes perfect sense because of the burnmark on her left hand, which was a muzzle mark, so that that would tend to indicate you're trying to push the muzzle away.
It certainly makes more sense than your right hand firing a gun which's then on your lap and then your right hand end up ends up under your buttock.
Yeah. No, it's impossible, isn't it.
I mean, well, as the biomechanical experts basically said, but that makes perfect sense from that police officer.
Anna, Yeah, And can I just read out another part of the inquest that I found disgusting really? At the inquest, the detective Kirkman said, I couldn't imagine somebody sitting there and allowing somebody to place a gun directly onto her head and pull the trigger and her not move or try to prevent it. It's not logical. When I read that, I thought, wow, talk about victim blaming, and his comment actually doesn't make logical sense, because if someone has a
gun pointed at your head, you would freeze. My fear would be if I move, they might pull the trigger.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, lots of things happen in a rapid space of time.
Doo. I mean that that is nonsensical.
Yeah, but also you know with that comment that they couldn't imagine someone sitting there and allowing someone to place a gun on their head. If someone had a gun to my head, the only I believe because I'm know Bruce Lee or Action Hero, so I can't flick that gun away, you know, like they do in the movies. But my thought would be the only option for me would try to be would be to try and talk someone down. Yeah, talk them down, talk them out of it.
But also, if you've got an aggressor who sticks a shotgun into your temple, and remember the pressure on that, it can be quite you know, it would be could be very hard, very strong. Hannah I mean you would you would freeze, wouldn't you.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Absolutely, I would freeze. I would ship myself.
Yeah.
Well, and there's that, But you don't I mean for a policeman to say that, it's just look that all that is. Let's be honest, that's complete self justification. He completely stuffed it up, and that was reinforced by the police's own internal affairs unit, not as strongly as it should have been. But you know, he'd already been slapped across the wrist for negligent duty, so it was that's just an exercise.
Absolutely, But he still did it, didn't he. We're at an inquest and he's still saying it. Another another thing that Detective Kirkman said in assessing how Amy died, He said he considered he could he could easily reach the trigger sitting down like that with either the left or right hand, so deduced that Amy could do the same. How could you? How could you say that just because you could do something somebody else can. And then he was corrected and told that you know it wasn't the gun,
you know, to the floor pointing upwards. So you know, the other thing is did he factor in her neck injury, and how could he reason that anything he could do someone else could do the same. One minute, he's saying she used a left hand and the end of the gun was on the propped onto the bed. Then he says she used a right hand which fell under a bottom afterwards. Then the gunshot was from the ground up, and then it's horizontal. I mean, can anyone else see an issue here or is it just met?
Yeah? I think that's definitely established. Anna, It's seriously and I think at the time, I think Ian Roberts's statement talked about how both him and Blandford said that it couldn't have happened that way, but of course they were ignored, which is terribly sad. But I guess what's even more sad.
And I think you pointed this out last week with Ron Liam that when you lose, you've just got to lose gracefully, right, you just got to accept it rather than just keep pushing that barrow, right, And it was just just just, man, can you just stop already?
Ron brought this up last week too, which I thought was the most pertinent thing of all. Even if you don't know anything about police procedures. You know, it just makes perfect sense. I mean, if you turn up at a scene and such a violent act has been perpetrated a young mum and a shotgun and a shooting injury to that extent, your default position is there's a problem here.
This is potentially criminal. You know, this is suspicious. That's your default position, because you know, anyone who comes across a scene like that, you think that that is an ultra you know, aggressive, serious, you know whatever.
I mean.
You talk about domestic violence issues, generational attitudes till the cows come home. But the point is, if you turn up to a scene like that, you take the default position of it being the worst possible outcome in a police context, and you work backwards, you know, and if it turns out down the track from from all the forensics and all the bits and pieces that somehow that person has tragically taken their own life, well then that's a conclusion. But you start off from the position of
assuming the worst. And I thought, you know, Ron making that point as an experienced detective made perfect sense, whether you're a policeman or not.
Because, as we've said, detectives see things.
That's the normal sort of working Joe's like you and me, Liam would never see yeah and never wish to see.
Yeah, exactly.
But this one, this is, this is still has to be highly unusual in regional Western Australia. We're not talking about Perth or north Bridge, and they're hardly the Bronx, you know what I mean. Yeah, we're talking about Serpentine. We're talking about a rural area, young woman, kids in the car. I mean, it just like red flags planted all over.
Yeah.
Oh mate, it was so many red flat I mean a place would it looked like Tianum and square. I mean, you can't make it up. It's just no, it's phenomenal. Tim me your spot on, don't you think?
Anna?
Yeah, I'm sitting here thinking, listen to everything you're saying, and you know I agree with you. But I've got to say there were three constables that were there who thought exactly what Ron was saying, the same way Ron was thinking. They were taking you know, making the right steps and following procedure. They wanted this done. They wanted forensics. You know, why is it detectives could come in and just shut all of that down. It is so wrong.
Yeah, that's the irony They were good coppers, every one of those constables.
They were.
Now next week, Annie, you'll be pleased to hear we are going to have the new South Wales Crime Commissioner, Michael Barnes, Oh my god, talking about Amy's case, and I guess he's experienced now he's it's going to be an exciting, exciting episode, but I guess for now. I mean, obviously I wanted to speak to you about the family
and how everyone's coping. I mean everyone forgets sometimes, Anna, because you're just out there and you're going hard, and you know, everyone just assumes that you're so strong, but I know this is often hard, always hard. Really, how you doing? First, first and foremost?
Well, you know you're not allowed to ask me that question, I know, I know. Sorry, I yeah, that's a really hard one, because yeah, it is. It is so difficult what this has done to me, you know, how it's affected me, my life, you know, my family's life is just devastating. I have good days, I have bad days, and generally that question you just asked me could make me burst into tears because I try not to think about anything but what's in front of me, which is
you know, fighting for the truth about Amy. So I don't stop to look either side of me to think about how I'm feeling, or you know that sort of thing. It's my focus is Amy, So sometimes I don't even realize things build up. And when someone asked me that questions, you know, there's been times when I've just burst into tears because I haven't stopped to think about how I feel. Yeah, but you know, the family's doing well, the kids are
doing well, Nancy is doing well. But you know that only lasts a little while, Allison, until you know there's another smack in the face or another let down, or something happens. And once that happened, you know, once some sort of news comes along, it just dredges everything up gain and we're back to the twenty sixth of June twenty fourteen. So there is no moving on until you know there's some sort of answer to all this.
You're doing your great job, Anna, You're doing a great job. And thank you, and thank you for trusting us with Amy's story. We'll keep going.
Oh, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. Have I got time to talk about something else? Yes, Okay, I wanted to bring up Robert Simmons, if that's okay, it's fine. Yeah, just a couple of things about him. He said that Amy and his son David and the kids were living on his property for about three months, and he said he only saw Amy a couple of times and he didn't know her very well. But he did say she was a good mother, always polite and nice to him.
I found it interesting that he claims he didn't know the mother of his grandchild, the one who looked after his horses when he was away, the one who picked him up from the airport a couple of times, he doesn't know very well. And then he said that he went into that room and unloaded that shotgun, and I thought to myself, well, why didn't he unload the pink gun too, and in fact, why not all the other
guns that were in that room. He said at the inquest that he was a bit reluctant to sign off to get Amy a gun license because of what his son and his mates had told him about Amy going to violent rages and things like that. So he's worried about, you know, supporting Amy getting a gun license. Yet he's okay with his son, the one with a substance abuse problem, having a gun, and he's never witnessed anything from Amy and says she was polite and nice and claims that
he didn't know very well. So if it's okay with you, I actually have a personal message for Robert Simmons.
Is that okay?
Bert?
You've said in your own words that you've tried so hard to help your son get his life on track. I'd like to ask you this, Bert, have you ever stopped and considered in all of this, just once your granddaughter and what she's gone through the pain and the suffering she lives with caused by losing the most important person in her life, her mother Amy.
Yeah, I think that's a that's a that's a great statement. And I asked the question again. Anyone can answer this. You included Anna, why did he touch that gun? Why did he go in that room and unload that gun?
I can give you an answer. Somebody else said that, and you know because he kind of explained it in his statement. He said, you know, as a gun user, it's always to disarm the guns, you know, when they're not being used. So that's that's try.
Come on, but just that one, come on, Well.
He said that he didn't see her he only saw the gun and then turned around and saw Amy.
But I'm confused. But this is something I've always been confused about. The chronology of events. Robert Simmons' phone call to the ambulance operator, where he says in the transcript of the call, he's on record as saying, what are the words, Tim? I think I think my son.
Someone shot her. I think it must have been my son. He's not here. My son made the mistake.
Thank you. Is that before he goes into the room or after?
That was after he got a phone call, initially being told that something was going on, so he went there, And it's a good point you make. He went there knowing that there was someone to think of, yeah, yep, that's right, someone in distress, or yeah, that that there was an person hurt.
Something had happened.
So he uttered those words after he'd been in the room and unloaded the gun.
Yes, correct, and found Amy.
And found Amy. So he sees her in situe after he unloads the gun. According to him, it's just such a small room. We know what the dimensions are. I mean, I've been inside the replica. But anyway, I'll go with him on the chronology that's his evidence. But he unloads the gun, then he sees her, then he utters those words, Yeah, I'm sorry, but I there's still there's so much, there's so much to unpack there, there's so much still unanswered. It's it's incredible.
And we've discussed it before. He wasn't saying this to the neighbor that he knew. He wasn't saying this to one of his son's friends. He was saying this to a complete stranger or an emergency call.
It's a great point.
It's like, yes, I mean, you're overwhelmed like this, that life is coming at you pretty fast at that point, but that that's your first instinct to tell a complete stranger you think your son has shot his partner like that.
That to me is very.
Telling to what he really thought had happened in that moment. Yes, and then everything since, as and has just pointed out, has seemed to walk that back or try to.
Yes, because that's that's the flavor I get from everything he said at the ink, he seemed to get more and more did so.
He downplayed it, definitely downplayed it at the inquest. But if you you'll remember this and the post, it notes that were all over that small house. Robert Simmons at one point said to Amy's mum that they showed me. I didn't realize it was that bad.
Yeah, that's right.
And those were notes that Amy had made, presumably about what was happening in that house, or what's what had happened to her in that house, or what Simmons had said to her in that house. I didn't realize it was that bad. So that that's that's him again, not not admitting to someone unimportant, admitting to the mother of a of a of a of a dead young woman that yeah, oh god, it was bad in that house. Now what did he What did you mean by that?
And those post it notes were thrown out. He threw the post it notes out, And I just wanted to say also, Robert gave evidence at the inquest that he had never known his son David being violent towards a woman, right, Yet his first instinctive comment to police emergency on the phone was that someone shot on he thought it was
his son. So if you give evidence in court and you say I've never known my son to be violent towards a woman, yet that's your response when you see a dead woman, you call police emergency and you say you think he did it, Well, that doesn't make sense.
It's counterintuitive.
Boyce should be talking to Robert Simmons again if they're not already, but they also should be speaking to his partner at the time, or his former partners. They should be speaking to them because we know more in relation to those relationships, and I think they could offer some information, give a bit of clarification on the situation. But you know, I mean again, like so much of this, right, we look at this, we look at the words, we look
at the situation, and we know we're talking circumstantial. But the way they have interpreted stuff doesn't make sense. The way we're talking about it now does make sense. And they've just conveniently omitted the other information which backs up the whole idea of Amy being killed as opposed to having killed herself. So that's been the ongoing frustration for you, hasn't, an Anna.
The whole thing's been frustrating, Alison, like every step of the way. I mean, I cannot believe. I still can't believe. I know, I've had over ten years of it, and I still cannot believe that there is no one in authority that is stepping up to help. No one. I just keep being fobbed off. Like I said, it's a game of hot potato. Just keep throwing it because you know, don't want to hold that for too long, do you I get burned? That's right.
We'll just keep the pot boiling away.
We'll hold the potato until they only take it. But Anna, is it? You know again? Thank you so much? Is there anything else you'd like to say? I know that we could, We could dedicate so much time to all of this, but there's going to be plenty of opportunity, I can assure you. And you know, we've got some really exciting people coming up in conversation.
Have you've done so well?
As I said, starting with Michael Michael Barnes next week. And you know, there are people willing to help. They're not in the position, the direct position to help, but they're willing to at least provide advice and insight on what should be happening.
Well, Allison, I'm so grateful to everyone who has stepped forward to speak to the podcast. You know, people from you know, specific expertise and backgrounds that have that have come on here and helped and you know, given their opinion on the matter, it's been just amazing that they've been willing to do that. I would like to sincerely thank the listeners who've been following Amy's story and to everyone who's signed who has signed the petition in support
of Amy. They're helping to make such a difference, So if people could please keep spreading the word and sharing the link. And I'd also like to thank the people who have come forward with information. Our family are so appreciative of their courage in doing so, and my family and I are also grateful to you, Alison, Sandy, Liam and Tim and the team at seven Media for the ongoing help and support you continue to give us Amy's
family and friends by helping to uncover the truth. I'd also like to thank the three of you for your kind words in conversation one. Alison, You're amazing. Tim, I've appreciated all all the articles you've written, and Liam, I'm happy to be your auntie Anna. No one's taking down a dirt road.
That's praise, that's praise indeed, praise indeed, were compared to some of my other arsers. I don't know whether you want to be in that bucket. But I'm very pleased to put you there. No good on you, Anna, thanks very much. We all really appreciate it, and so least we can do. We just want to We just want to get more, more, more, more traction. That's that's what
we're frustrated about too, equally with you. But although we could probably never reach those dizzying heights after ten years, but that's a great way to finish this if we can just again urge people to to even get their friends to look at it, family members, that sort of thing. Go to change dot org and just type in Amy Wensley and please sign that petition, you know, because that's a really important thing to do, and we could get some some literally some change from that anner.
Yeah, I'd like to hope so absolutely.
Well, the good thing is we're edging ten thousand now, which is good. So we're making progress. It's slow, slowly but surely, but you know, we're going to get there. I mean, it's every we all sing from the same hymn sheet. We're all dedicated to this and getting the truth about Amy out there. And we just again, thank.
You so much.
And Anna Davy, you're a real superstar, which is so much admiration for you.
Thank you well, thank you so much for your kind words. I appreciate it and everything that you're doing to help. I just really appreciate it so much. Thank you.
Thanks guys, all right, thank you, Thanks Tom.
Bye,