This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a bags packed car running her daughters strapped into the backseat.
Mom told me that she needed to go back inside to grab something.
Panic.
I Amy is dead, Sir aim his dead?
Eight confusion World.
About five minutes they sit not to suicide.
One hundred percent.
This is emergency.
What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy? The Truth about Amy?
Episode ten.
I'm Liam Bartlett.
And I'm Alison Sandy.
I'm ready.
You're really blush.
Cameras said, excellent, everyone has eyes and ears. Safety's off, okay, and test fire. I'm going to try and pull the trigger with my finger.
I think it's very interesting right there. That's very very interesting.
Day.
Look at the force he's trying to put into pulling that trigger, and he hasn't been able to pull the trigger.
Okay, let's do it again out of the shooting range. At the Campbelltown, Liverpool District Pistol Club in Western Sydney. International Crime Reconstruction scene expert Scott Rhoda is testing the shotgun which was used to kill Amy, not the actual gun, which was a four to ten boyto twelve gauge double barrel shotgun owned by her partner David Simmons, but an exact match to be used as part of the crime
scene reconstruction. He's joined by Daniel Martin of Arms and FX, who specializes in firearms, theatrical armory, pyrotechnics and props for film and TV.
Twenty one round in the chamber is going to be clear, and I'll confirm that weapons clear, weapons safe on this one.
When you pull the trigger, maybe just try to support the gun just a little bit so some of you can see if there's any kick of the gun coming up off of that front pad. So maybe just try to stabilize it a little bit to see if it comes up to end at all sail. Yeah, just stabilize it a little bit so that we can really feel.
How much pressure you're putting on that trigger to make it pull.
Obviously, we can do manufacture, you know, settings to see what the whole trigger hounds are.
You know, on it.
But I think if you stabilize it just a little bit, that might show us that the.
Barrel oka reacting safety is off. Weapons loaded and testing.
Hmm.
Now that had a substantial recoil and you just stabilize it just a little bit.
That just a little bit. It's also important for ROTA to gauge how powerful the weapon is, the impact it has a close range, and of course the recoil, which is the pushback of the gun when it's fine.
Okay, So that.
Actually surprises me a little bit that we had that much recoil. Let's go ahead and clear it, load it up again, maybe this time you know, obviously rings to one by one, but I think it's worthwhile to do that a couple more times, uh, to see how.
We can help how that gun.
If it's clear, that's a lot more powerful than I anticipated.
It to be.
Yeah, and much more concussive.
Yeah, yeah, no, there's definitely definitely without ear protection and with close proximity to that weapon being discharged in that small space, would you concur that there would be some concussive effects?
Absolutely?
Yeah, Yeah, you're gonna gonna have a concussive effects. That's a pressure wave coming at the end of the barrel.
Yeah, and in that confined space you saw this indoors, Yeah, indoors in the studio, in the bedroom, and in that little concave, you know, in that little doorway, especially with three sides, but nowhere for that sound to go.
I think anybody in that room would be affected.
Substantially without hearing protection.
Yeah.
Yeah, depending on how far that barrel was pressed against the skull, that might muffle the sound a little bit. Yeah, some of the sound way went because some of the gases might enter into the skull, and that's gonna cause them that slight muffling effect.
Yeah.
But yeah, in a smaller room, it's gonna be it's gonna be even louder than we was experiencing right here, right.
Yeah, Yeah, that was very beneficial.
I said, let's do that a couple more times and then and then we'll go to the we've got the audio now, and we've got a couple more kicks.
We've got a five inch kick approximately. I'd say, let's try to get it.
But maybe through a variation of your trigger pull and you know, see what other kind of effects you can get on handling the gun.
I think I'm learning a lot by just watching you do this. I think this is really helpful.
Okay, whippons loaded. Everyone ready, Ye, Pifey's off. Hey, testing, So we look at the backside of the target. We can see the projectile hole right there.
We got the projectile hole right here about a centimeter as you mentioned.
And then and that's the backside of the target. And on the front side of the.
Target, we've got this blast radius from the gas coming out of the gun and you can see the devastating nature of that.
In this demonstration here, So.
Once again confirming immediate incapacitation upon the bullet entering the head and devastating injuries, you know.
So yeah, I think you know.
The idea that this gun is a low caliber or not a twelve gage shotgun, I don't think there's any bearing on the devastation that this gun can do.
Is a powerful shotgun.
Yes, it's designed for killing small things, but on a human body, it's still going to be fatal.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's arranges. Yeah, there's powerful.
We first made contact with Scott Rhoda about two years ago now to see if this was a case that he could lend his expertise. His resume is extensive, having consulted in more than fifteen hundred cases since two thousand and one. They include reconstructions of the manner of death of George Floyd, Michael Biker, Sherlock, and most famously Rever Stemcamp, whose boyfriend South African former Olympic sprinter Oscar Pistorius was finally convicted of her murder in twenty sixteen.
Guilty of murder, with the accused having had criminal intentions for thurs.
Here, Rooda is trying to determine where the gun should have landed based on Amy's position as presented at the inquest. Despite tests already having been undertaken by biomechanical experts, Roda is doing an independent assessment, which means carrying out his own testing and going through the various scenarios of what was possible given the forensic evidence of the room and the position of Amy's body when she was discovered.
Well, let's say hypothetically we have a right hand pull with a right hand hold and becoming immediately incapacitated. That gun is going to fly in the right direction so soon as the trigger's pulled that God's going to be flying after the rate, substantially out of her hand.
If you're holding onto that gun one hand with a weak hold, just depressing the trigger, the gun's going to fly out of your hand.
Yeah, yeah, substantially.
There's no scenario where that gun could defy the forces of nature and go toward the body with the butt being between the legs.
Yeah. This is not a one hand pull gun. This is guns designed for a two hand.
Pull, steady halled, two handed and absorbing some of that recoal in both your arms and against your shoulder.
If Amy was to have pulled this trigger in some kind of a scenario that it might fit the physical evidence, clearly the gun would have.
Flown out of her hand and off to the right of her body.
There's no way the gun would be in the documented position that we had from the friend, or from the father or from law enforcement. So I think this clearly confirms for me this was not unassisted shot. This was not unassisted. This was done by another individual.
Scott Rhoda heads up the US based company Evidence Room, comprising a team of forensic and computer animation experts who provide insight based on the evidence presented at the crime scene, and.
Then the butt of the gun would be pushed out this way, opposite, in opposite.
For this case, Rhoda brought with him Pat Mooney, who specializes in the physical and virtual recreation of the crime scene itself.
With the butt by your feet, muzzle towards her head.
We're at a warehouse in Merrickville where they've developed a model to the exact scale of the bedroom Amy's body was found.
So let's assume this was self inflicted for a moment.
Their first test aims to find out whether Amy could have used her left hand to shoot herself, and.
The gun was in this documented position with the butt of the gun along the left ankle and the gun chat wound out of the right the right hands under the right bidock.
One the blood would be an entirely.
Different tape of a position. So I think we can conclude say that the position the gun was documented to be in between her legs more towards her left ankle, is not at all consistent with any evidence we see here, and I think we can rule that out completely completely as being part of the scenario.
So now I think we have to factor in.
The evidence was.
Polluted by a minimum of two people prior to officers being able to document the condition. So the reliability of this being an actual position related to some kind of a self inflicted gunshot wound, I think doesn't pass any
test whatsoever. So the second scenario would be, would Amy, without being able to use her right arm, be able to stabilize the gun to create the wound from a ninety degree right to left in the right temple and produce blood on the opposite wall by either resting it on the bed, which I think that's what you're showing here now, right, to use the bed kind of as a as a stabilizer, But you can't use that much of the bed as a stabilizer because the angle it's got to kind.
Of rest on the edge, right, Yeah, it's such a tight area.
And say, for example, let's say she pulls the trigger there, the gun's going to fall directly.
Like horizontal with the body or parallel.
Or almost in a similar position as as the other scenario, right, which doesn't fit. Right, which doesn't fit at all. And then the other scenario is having the gun on the floor, using the floor as the.
Stabilizer for the weapon, and then the head being the other stabilizer with the left hand kind of holding it into place here, but still you need to use the right hand to pull the trigger.
And that doesn't fit our trajectory angle well.
And you can't get the right hand underneath the right buttock or the right thigh. You can't get it underneath the body. Because I think we've been clear and the record is clear, and it's on the record that this would be an immediately incapacitating shot with no purposeful movement after the trigger is fired. So I think having the gun being propped on the ground as a stabilizer is also now ruled out because you cannot pull the trigger and get the hand underneath the right buttock prior to.
The shot.
The shot, it's an ending shot, it's over, and once the trigger is pulled, it's over. She's now immediately incapacitated, and there's really not going to be any way to get that right hand underneath or bomb.
Post shot, not at all.
And there's no way to do the angle does not match.
Then there's the question of how drops of blood were found inside the firearm, which they examine.
But do you see blood seeping into the crack of the gun.
It looks like a pretty tight fit. It's almost seamless.
Yeah.
The only seam I see is on the side right in here, tiny little corner there and little corner there, But the seam right here is flawless. So the chances of blood getting in here without.
The gun being cracked, without the gun open, yeah, without the.
Gun being open, there's really no way to get blood into this area. The only way I think blood could get into into this area here is if the gun is already covered in blood and then a witness or an accomplice or someone anyone doesn't matter who came in unloaded the gun and then the blood from the execure then seeped in that way.
Yeah, that's a possibility. But for the blood to.
Get in the gun without deliberately opening the without the opening gun to take the ammunition out, I don't think that's going to be possible.
But we can do that test, right, Yeah.
They also discuss the circumstances of Amy's death, such as the language Simmons used in his phone call to triple zero.
So we have a triple zero call by Simmons Ambulance. What's the address of the emergency from the operator twenty seven eighty three Southwestern Highway, Serpentine. Okay, tell me exactly what happened. Somebody shot himself in the head. That's what the first quote is, Okay, from the Triple zero call by mister Simmons, who is the romantic partner of the deceased. So right out of the gate, when the operator of Triple zero, and this is important to nail this down.
I think, is somebody shot himself in the head.
Somebody shot himself in the head.
I mean, it could be some local colloquialisms there himself herself themself whatever.
That doesn't bother me. But the fact that it says somebody shot himself in.
The head, yeah, I'm very vague.
Right.
If I walked into say my wife who has apparently been shot, and I'm calling Triple zero, I'm not saying somebody, Yeah, you would say my wife.
Amy.
So the fact that mister Simmons has somebody shot himself in the head, Triple zero operator, okay, are you there with the person at the moment.
No, I'm not draw down service.
I had to drive down to the service station because my phone is broken. I have two kids, and my wife has shot herself. There's a lot there no, I'm not. I had to drive down to the service station because my phone is broken. I have two kids, I'm assuming meaning with me, and my wife has shot herself operator.
Okay, how old is she? How old is she? Twenty three? I just she's dead.
The language being used to describe now, mind you, of course you have to factor in I think post traumatic stress, right, if you reaction to the situation, right, maybe some people have a colder reaction or you know, so just so forth, So I guess we can't go too off the deep end with the analysis just yet.
But there's more. How old is she? How old is she? Twenty three?
I just she's dead, right, Okay? All right, so she's not conscious or breathing. Okay, but he's not there anymore. He's already gone because I'm assuming to say that he has a broken phone that he can so as important to mister Simmons in this triple zero call as the fact that Amy is possibly.
Dead or is dead, is that also his phone is broken?
I think the same level of detail has been given about both subjects so far in this very critical triple zero call. Okay, so all right, so she's not conscious for breathing, yes, I've got kids in the car. I'm going to have to take them to their alright, and I have a mate standing on the highway. Okay, can you just please come and take her or do something.
Something.
I'm kind of at a loss for words.
Could just come take her and do something?
Okay?
So, yes, we're going to get that organized.
So that was R.
Jay Simmons, R and B. Simmons, R and B. Simmons.
Okay, what is your name, sir, David Simmons. Why did she fucking do that? That's what David Simmons says. Okay, I'm going to get that organized for you straight away. Mister Simmons says, all right, thank you very much. All right, see you all all right by all right, end of the Triple zero call.
In her findings, the Kroner indicates she believed David simmons testimony. But before we proceed with what she said, we just want to apologize in advance for some of the wording used here and elsewhere in this podcast. When discussing suicide. We're aware that it should never be classified as committing suicide, but taking one's own life or dying by suicide. However, for accuracy we are quoting from transcripts provided to us.
David Simmons denied having any involvement in Amy's death and maintained his position that Amy committed suicide. In my view, there were aspects of David's evidence that minimized the difficulties of his relationship with Amy and his controlling and aggressive behavior towards her, but there was nothing in his demeanor
to suggest he was lying about how Amy died. Further, I give some weight to the limited opportunity the two men had to concoct a story, given the short time frame between when Amy spoke to Nancy and their arrival at the Serpentine roadhouse. Weighing against the evidence of Amy's family is the evidence that Amy had been diagnosed with anxiety and depression, which has a known association the increased risk of suicide, and was clearly in a tumultuous relationship
that had made her deeply unhappy at times. She was separated from David a number of times, but they always got back together, which may well have created some sense of futility in her mind as to her prospects of ever escaping the relationship. Some of her messages to friends and even to David indicate that she felt caught in a vicious cycle where she loved him and wanted to keep her family unit together, but felt like David would
never change. I accept that Amy loved her daughters unconditionally, but many people who love their family sadly do commit suicide in moments of despair without thinking through the tragic consequences.
So just noting here that contrary to the analysis of evidence by experts, the coroner still considers suicide an option in Amy's manner of death. I catch up with Skill to discuss what the evidence tells him happened to Ami and the why her caise has been handled todight.
There's so many things that trouble me about this.
The number one thing is the position in which she's located is not in a position you would expect.
Somebody who is taking their own life.
Right.
She's in a position that is not comfortable. It's not a position that you would naturally be in.
I would think that if there was a deliberate self inflicted gunshot wound, maybe you'd be on the bed, you'd be sitting in a place. Because, especially when it comes to women and suicide, they tend statistically to not do things that are messy or bloody, right because they know they're going to be found by people that love them.
And it's just to me, does not.
Strike at all as a suicide scene when we look at the corners details of the report, which demonstrates that there's a pneumothorax on her left chest. So deep bruce, Yeah, deep bruise on a left chest. And now we can't time how soon before the shot that that bruce happened, but that bruce is there, and it's incredibly suspicious and
to me indicates that there was violence. And even if you look at the photograph, the selfie that Amy took sitting on the bed right there into that mirror, to me, that was a protest photograph like don't mess with me.
I've got the gun, I'm in control, I'm.
In control of my life, this is my life. That was a protest picture. That was not a picture foreshadowing a suicide. That was a picture of strength and self empowerment, like I've got this, don't mess with me.
That's what that picture says to me.
And yet less than an hour lighter, that's where she is.
She stayed, Yeah, crammed between a door, so that you can barely open the door with blood on the left side on this wall here at about chair level, with bruising on her chest, bruising on her buttock, with her right hand properly under her right buttock, so which means that that takes her right hand out of play to pull the trigger.
Well, if she's pulled the trigger with her left hand, as the police insisted, yeah, Hall the heck has she done that?
You cannot do it.
You cannot have a shot to the right side of the forehead right at the temple at ninety degrees, being able to hold the gun out with your right hand under your buttock and even reach the trigger with your
left hand. Now, mind you, the left hand cannot pull the trigger because the left hand has gunshot residue on it, meaning the left hand was wrapped around the barrel of the gun, which is the positive of the gunshot residue and burning on the interior of her left hand, and that's a defensive wound.
As you know. The same conclusions were made at the inquest, except they've tried to reason that it was possible Amy used her right hand. The currenter concluded in her findings.
I have some reservations about how much weight I can give to the biomechanical expert opinions given the limitations in the testing. However, I have indicated that I am persuaded by those opinions that the position of Amy's right hand in the photographs taken by Senior Constable Reynolds raises doubt as to whether Amy committed suicide, given the results of the biomechanical testing and their general expert opinions as to
the positioning of her hand in that manner. Counsel for the family also pointed to the absence of gunshot residue on Amy's right hand, but I consider this evidence less compelling given the limitations of this type of forensic evidence and the qualifications of doctor Pitts. Doctor Pitts could not exclude the possibility that Amy pulled the trigger of the shotgun with her right hand and then fell underneath her
body before the gunshot residue settled. The absence of fingerprints on the shotgun and her blood inside the breech face and barrel chamber also did not advance the case given the other explanations provided by expert witnesses.
While not wishing to give weight to the biomechanical analysis on the basis the testing had too many limitations. Her honor surprisingly determines the selfie taken by Amy half an hour before her death was objective evidence supporting suicide. Objective is the word she uses in mind that the selfie was taken after her confrontation with Simmons, but before Amy spoke to her mum, Nancy, who she told she was on her way.
Oh I will I'll see you soon, I will come.
In my view, the existence of the photograph adds weight to the possibility that Amy committed suicide. Although it is not conclusive, it shows she had access to the shotgun when alone in the bedroom only minutes before she died. As a result of discharging as a coroner, I have seen many similar photographs in other cases where a person has taken a photograph of themselves with an item that
they then subsequently use to take their own life. Often they'll send the photograph to family or friends beforehand, but not always. The photography is not by definition a suicide note, but it is often a way of documenting their intention. I accept that there might be other reasons Amy took the photography, including perhaps with an intention to send a warning to David that she had a firearm and might
be prepared to pecked herself with it. There's no evidence she sent the photo to him, but there was evidence that the mobile coverage in that area was often poor, which could explain why she did not send it, either as an indication of her intention to commit suicide or a warning.
What doesn't make sense here is how the coroner could draw any conclusion on the photo when it's impossible to know what Amy was thinking when she took it, especially as she did not even know Amy, Whereas the actual objective evidence of experts carrying out testing based on the facts known in Amy's case is given significantly less weight.
She could stabilize the gun and pull the trigger with her right hand.
It's possible back to Liam's interview with Scott where they discussed the position of the gun in relation to Amy's body. According to people who were there the night she died, this.
Is how Amy was found. This is the exact position, and this is the exact dimensions. How the heck did the gun end up like that?
Well, the answer is very simple. The gun did not end up like that.
Somebody just said the gun was like that, because we have a polluted crime scene. Before the police officer comes into the scene, we have a minimum of two people, possibly three people other than Amy that have already interacted with the gun and the scene. And those people I don't believe were properly quarantined, questioned, examined, searched, and tested to test the veracity of what they said they did, which clearly they manipulated the crime scene.
They polluted the crime scene.
Well, you've seen a lot of these sort of scenes.
Unfortunately, yes, over the years.
So what do you think on first glance and looking at all the forensic analysis, is this a murder saying? Or is this a suicide saying?
One hundred percent? This is a murder scene one hundred percent.
This is a as a matter of fact, every police investigation, when you have a suspicious death, you must start with murder. You must assume that it's murder, and then work the evidence to either confirm the murder or another hypothesis. But if you don't start with murder, you're going to miss critical evidence, and unfortunately happen to be in the situation that we're in now where it's ten years later and we're rehashing things that should have been done the day of the death, and that's tragic.
Scott. That is quite a big gun. I mean, I know it's a small gun in a shotgun way, but it's still quite a big gun. Especially you can see the dimensions of the time of Amy's body. For a slightly built lady that she was, that's quite a big gun.
Yeah.
How the heck could she have with her left hand, as the police say, raise that up this way, horizontal to the floor and shoot it, because that's what they maintained at the coronial inquest.
Well, I would like to be at that Coronial in Quest part two to put some questions to them, because I don't think that they can answer the questions, and we intend to prove, and I think that we have proven so far based on the evidence, that that's just just wrong.
It's just wrong.
However, we can.
Put together an experiment to substantiate what we believe is the most reasonable to a degree of scientific certainty, we can do that they cannot.
Well, given the position of the body, given the dimensions of this room, the blood spatter where it was. What's your biggest issue, what's your biggest single problem with finding of suicide.
I think the thing is it's the totality of the circumstances. It always comes down to the interrelationship of the evidence that SuDS everything of everything because I first, whenever we do any kind of a homicide investigation, it's about the contextual analysis.
Right.
So we've got two children, Amy's two children in the car just however many yards out that way with the car on the kids in the car, right, and she's just popping back in the house for a second, right, and she's going to commit suicide. That doesn't make any sense, right, doesn't make any sense.
Even if taking into consideration the body being moved. There's no scenario with the available evidence that makes sense to rote out.
There's got a trigger pull, right, you take some power to pull that away, right, because if the gun is this way, she's got to pull the trigger that way, and pull the trigger that way.
She's got to push it out right and keeping.
It in close contact. But then.
Maybe she could have done it with the right hand, but the right hand's properly under her buck, so that's not possible. So there's another scenario that we could try to work out for possibility is maybe the gun was propped on the ground, using the ground as the as the force. And then if you could just take your left hand and put it around the barrel and put it towards your temple like that, Okay, and then and then but then, okay, it.
Would still require her to pull the trigger.
With her right hand, which cannot do because it's under her right bum properly. And if she did it this way, the spatter would be an upward trajectory and the shape of the wound wouldn't be symmetrical, but it would be elliptical.
It would be it would be an.
Elliptical shape, and the wound would spray out this way. But that's not what the corner says.
The corner says it was ninety degrees straight, straight level plane.
Yeah, horizontal to the ground.
Right.
So there's really no scenario left hand, right hand, because you have to factor.
In what we have known variables. Right we have known data. The right hand is under the bum.
Her left hand has got burn marks around it, which means it was in contact with the barrel as the barrel as the.
Gun was fired.
So the left hand can't pull the trigger, the right can can't pull the trigger, and as an investigator, Liam is becoming pretty obvious she didn't pull the trigger.
There's no scenario that you can concoct here now with scale, in any way, shape or form that gets you to the point where she pulls the trigger.
Now, there's no scenario based on the evidence that we have, where she could do this by herself.
Just nothing could happen that way, just can't happen.
Scott Rohder and his team of forensic experts are convinced Amy didn't take her own life.
This is not a suicide. I'm telling you one hundred percent not a suicide.
And as you'll recall, there is now a one million dollar reward for anyone with information that will lead to a conviction. But because of the current's open finding, there doesn't seem to be any urgent and the idea it could have been suicide still casts a dark shadow over the possibility of progress in the case.
I mean, there are so many variables that have been poured over. What sticks out for you?
The first thing I think that sticks out for me is that Amy was trapped. The position that she's found in her final resting position, it looks like she was trapped.
So that's a red flag to you straight up, as it was for the uniformed officers who first turned up and first viewed that scene. And yet when the detectives turned up, none of those bells and whistles went off. Are you surprised, knowing what you know now, are you surprised the detectives so quickly put that into the suicide basket?
Well, I'm shocked, frankly.
Surprises, and I think strong enough, I'm shocked, and it's inexplicable. It's unexplainable to look at a woman who has no cause or history to commit suicide. She's in a trapped space, confined, and to just put it in the basket of suicide is frankly against all principles of forensic science and homicide investigation.
It became clear by the end of the inquest that very few of the witnesses were neutral in their position as to how Amy died. While acknowledging the importance of the evidence and opinion of all the witnesses, there are several opinions that stand out to me as carrying particular weight.
The Deputy State Coroner doesn't refer to any of the forensic experts here, only police officers including those first unseen, the officer responsible for undertaking the coronial investigation, the head of the cold case homicide review team, and former homicide detective Ron Eddels. You'll hear from mister Eddels shortly.
What I take from these various opinions is that while the available evidence points to Amy having made an impulsive and tragic decision to take her life, a number of experienced police investigators continue to have reservations about this case and retain some doubt about the conclusion Amy committed suicide.
While none of them have been able to identify evidence that would go anyway towards proving that another person was involved in her death, they are also not satisfied that it can be ruled out based on their training, experience and gut instincts.
Scott Rhoda would beg to differ.
We've done dozens and dozens of investigations where it's been ruled initially a suicide and then after some work, you know, we've determined to a degree of scientific certainty that it was a homicide.
This case is one of those cases.
What's the biggest roadblock for you in accepting the police position that it was suicide?
Well, I just can't accept their position.
But the biggest roadblock is the physical and the forensic evidence and the inter relationship of that evidence to the factual scenario of how we even get to the triple zero phone call. You know, it's not all about just bullet trajectory, blood spatter, and body position. It's what that tells you about what was happening prior to the shot being fired. And we have all kinds of evidence in this case that tell us she was trying to escape that life, not end that life.
Often in court these things come up in terms of probability. Do you think there is any probability that Amy killed herself?
No, No, one under.
This is a homicide. You wouldn't even give it a chance. No statistical attribution whatsoever to Amy killing herself.
I'll explain it this way. There is a chance that I'm a hologram sitting here talking to you. There's a chance. It's not probable, though, Liam, I'm really here. But there's a chance that I'm a hologram. Small chance.
I put it on that level, so almost absurd.
Yeah, it is absurd, honestly, when you look at the totality of the evidence, when you look at her body position. When you look at her wounds, you look at the position of her hands. She could not physically do.
This to herself.
I take what you say about the totality of evidence, and that's safer. But can we just talk about the gun, sure, just the gun and the gun shot, the gun that Amy used. Is there any way physically that you can see that she could have used her own hand to pull that trigger.
Yes, but it's not possible for her to discharge it, and it be consistent with the wound, the trajectory, the blood spatter, and honestly.
Her hand positions.
Anybody can grab that gun and shoot it right, but you cannot do it if you factor in what I would call known values, and the known values in the scientific aspect of the evaluation of this case are Her right hand is out of play from pulling the trigger or stabilizing the gun because of the position it's in, which is under her right buttock. That's out of play.
Her left hand is out of play from pulling the trigger because it's got burn marks and gunshot residue around the palmer aspect of the webbing between her thumb and forefinger, so that hand is out of play.
Of pulling the trigger as well.
Also, we had a wonderful model come in with same height and weight to play Amy's character, and she couldn't even get enough finger strength to pull the trigger in the opposite direction with her left hand.
There are three things that can happen from here. The Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions can build a case to prosecute, a new inquest can be held to determine if suicide can be ruled out, or they can do nothing at all.
Liam R.
Scott Rhoda about some of the facts that Coron and Sarah Linton used in twenty twenty one to justify not ruling out suicide.
Let me go to that selfie. You've seen it, haven't you. Yeah, the selfie that Amy took less than thirty minutes before she died, holding the gun in room. That's been painted as very much an indicator that she was having suicidal thoughts. Do you agree with that?
Absolutely not.
No. I think that selfie of her on the bed, I think that's a statement of power, you know that seeing don't mess with me.
I'm armed.
I'm going to protect myself. I believe that's what that picture says me. Not some indication towards suicide Limb.
So the total opposite.
Yeah, absolutely, that's all opposite.
Yeah, I'm trying to ask you questions without the benefit of hindsight, which is difficult, but I think it's necessary because there's no good either of us looking in the rearview mirror and saying, aha, I know this now because of dot dot dot. I'm trying to work out how two detectives could view this scene even without the sort of detailed analysis that you've already done, and so quickly come to the conclude us that it was self harm.
I just I just can't. I'm not a police officer's scolpt, but I can't wrap my hit around that.
I can't rep mad around it either, lamb uh. And for a trained investigator, for a trained detective, police officer, constable first responder, this country, my country, any country, it's just beyond the pale to just not do an investigation.
Yes, that's right. The whole concept of amy suiciding was actually suggested by one of the people who were there on the scene before police even got there. Right.
That triple zero phone call is an important piece of evidence. There's there's things in that call that are such red flags. Just get rid of her, get rid of the body, do something. It's so flippant, it's so a lack of emotion, lack of caring.
Can you please just come and do something so away from any forensic analysis, before you even get to the scene. You think that that first phone call that David Simmons made in itself gave police a story they should have followed up.
Absolutely, he put a story to the police on the record right out of the box that one it was suicide. Two, don't check my phone because it's broken, right, and get rid of the body. I want to nail him down in a chair for hours and hours and hours and put those questions to him and see where we get with it, because I'm not sure that was done properly in.
Any cases that you've looked at around the world, Scott, have you ever seen a story like this one where a young mother has her two young kids in a car only forty fifty meters away on the other side of the wall, effectively and then does something like this.
No, I really have not.
I mean, we've had a lot of cases where it's been put it's been put to us that there was a murder or a suicide involving a young woman, hangings, medicines, edged weapons, handguns, so.
On and so forth.
But not one of those scenarios, whether we found it to be a suicide or a murderer, not one of those scenarios. Did we have kids in a car waiting for the mother at the time that happened. That's just not any woman out there, any man out there.
It doesn't matter. Think about that. The two most important people in your life are in.
A car with the engine on, waiting for you, with birthday presents in the car for the child's birthday the next day or the next two days. And you're gonna just I'll be right back and then go shoot yourself in the head and kill yourself like that. It's just none of it makes sense, Leam.
It just you know.
And there's a reason why I got on a plane from the United States and came to Australia for this case and not any other case. It's because this case is so inexplicably wrong. I wanted to be here personally to tell.
You that, Well, something needs to happen, doesn't it. Because we've had a rash of domestic violence incidents in recent times, and it's been trending. I mean, the build up has just been why I and above anything that it should be.
Yeah, listen, no woman should have to suffer from abuse from their partner ever, ever, ever, and you should always error on the side. I think of the woman in a domestic violence situation because you know, whether people want to argue about it or not, the male partner is oftentimes stronger, has the ability to physically injure the person. Right, There's never an excuse for it in any situation whatsoever.
I think this should be a call to action to people to put pressure on law enforcement, on people in their families to look out for domestic violence. There's never a justification for it. I don't care your race, your age, your color, your marital status, your gender, your sexuality, none of it matters. What matters is the truth and holding people accountable for violent crimes. And in this case, nobody's been held accountable for this really violent crime and something needs to be done about it.
Or is it possible to just cut to the chase and put Amy's case before a jury already.
Even given that, notwithstanding that we've lost all that forensic gold, if I can put it that way.
Absolutely, because what we know is there's solid, verifiable data that has been documented and although there's other evidence that's been destroyed that would have made our job a lot easier, but the basic tools to do our job are there, right, And we were saying that our business people lie, witnesses lie, but the evidence never lies, and the evidence in this case is telling a very specific truth, and that truth is that this is a homicide.
And we can I think prove that.
I think we have proven that based on the building blocks that we have available to us already, so the fact that evidence has been destroyed and yet we still can come to this conclusion.
Definitively. It does come down to the police commitment.
So an Attorney General and a Director of Public Prosecutions and a police commissioner wanted to do something, wanted to do something positive for justice. It's possible, yes. Absolutely.
On twenty sixth of November twenty twenty, on behalf of Amy's family, Ashurst Lawyers, emailed former homicide detective ron Iddles to provide he's expert opinion about the manner of which Amy died and the way her case was handled by wa police.
My name is Ronald William iddles And I'm a retired Victorian police officer. I've been provided with a copy of the Code of Conduct for an expert witness in Western Australia and my report complies with the Code of Conduct. I was a police officer in Victoria for forty two years and for thirty two years I investigated crime in Victoria. During my career, twenty five years was spent at the Homicide Squad Melbourne. In nineteen ninety nine I attended the
Homicide Investigator's Course in Albany, New York State. My investigations from Victoria have taken me to every state in Australia and overseas to France, Spain, New Zealand, New York and Norway. I've given evidence on two hundred and thirty occasions in criminal proceedings at the Melbourne Supreme Court and countless times
at the Melbourne Coroner's Office. The Homicide Squad in Victoria is responsible for investigating all suspicious deaths in Victoria, and my twenty five years attached to the squad I investigated more than one thousand suspicious deaths. The outcome of a suspicious death after investigation may be natural causes accident, misadventure, suicide or homicide. With respect to homicide, it may be murder or manslaughter, and other issues then may be whether
the act was done in self defense. For twenty years of the twenty five years I was attached to the homicide squad, I held the rank of detective senior sergeant. During that time I was involved in three hundred and twenty homicide investigations and at least two hundred and fifty suicide cases. I am unable to give an exact figure a firearm was used in cases I was involved in,
but would say as a minimum two hundred. Generally, when attending a suspicious death involving the use of a firearm, you work on the basis it is a homicide until you prove different. This ensures no shortcuts are taken and your conclusion is based on sound forensic evidence, witness accounts, victimology and other intelligence. Theustralian Investigation Doctrine provides the standard for investigation of incidents by police officers in Western Australia.
It revolves around the crime model, contact, respond, investigate, manage and evaluation. The five key strategies are physical evidence, witnesses, intelligence, public awareness and suspect or person of interest. The initial call to police emergency was made at five eighteen pm and as a result, local police from Mundajong Police attended, being officers Blanford, Dixon and Roberts. The response to the incident by local police officers was in accordance with the
Western Australian Police Investigation Doctrine crime model. In responding, they preserved the crime scene, located and isolated potential witnesses or persons of interest, and in determining if an offense had been committed, photographed the crime scene and requested detectives to attend. The taking of statements from Simmons and Price at the gate of the property was not ideal, at least it
committed them to a basic account. Detectives from Row Kingham arrived around seven pm and after a short time all drove to the house where they were briefed by police officer Dixon. Kirkman and Weederman then entered the crime scene. After examination, they both formed the view the deceased Wensley had taken her own life. Concerns were raised by the uniform police and attendance, which appear to have been ignored.
Dixon received a phone call at eight pm and was informed that after reading the statements of David Simmons and Gareth Price, the death was deemed non suspicious. Kirkman makes the assessment based on speaking with the first responders, examination of the crime scene, and reading the statements of Simmons and Price. Of interest, it is deemed a non suspicious death at eight pm and statements from Price and Simmons
are not completed at that time. Kirkman sets out his observations and conclusions in his statement made some four years after the incident. Paragraph thirty two describes the entry wound. Paragraph forty notes no defensive wounds. In my opinion, the issue of no defensive wounds does not not established suicide. In my opinion what should have happened on the night was the crime scene should have remained a protected forensic sight.
Specialists should have been called for so a proper examination was undertaken, which should have included pathologist, photographer, crime scene examiner, ballistics expert, chemist in relation to blood spatter and gunshot residue consideration to consult with and request the attendance of the major crime squad in accordance with the determination it
was a specialist investigation. Further basic steps should have been to convey both Simmons and Price to the local police station so a more detailed account could be obtained by means of a formal interview. Both Simmons and Price should have been interviewed by detectives that night. Josh Brydon should have been located and interviewed on the night prior to any decision being made around.
The cause of the deceased's death.
Robert Simmons should have been interviewed on the night as at five twenty eight pm when he spoke with Sin John's ambulance, he was of the view his son had shot his partner and made a mistake. What is his belief for making such a statement. Nancy Kirk should have been interviewed. When she arrived at the property, she tells David Simmons you killed her, you bastard. You would want to know the basis of that statement and the history
between Amy and David. Explore avenues in relation to domestic violence. The fact police have no record does not mean it was not occurring. Ascertain movements and contact with Amy Wensley during the day. Rachel Price should have been interviewed as she had been with the deceased prior to death, make a request for call charge records to ascertain who the deceased had been speaking to or texting. I would expect these steps to have been taken as a minimum at
the commencement of this type of investigation. The detectives from Rockingham, and in particular Detective Sergeant Kirkman, as the most senior investigator, failed to follow the crime model and completely missed the most important phase investigation. From information contained in the inquest brief, it is evident detective arrive around seven pm. They are then given a verbal briefing, and at seven eighteen pm, Kirkman and Weederman enter the actual crime scene. Photographs are
taken and a mud map is drawn by Kirkman. They then leave by eight pm, having deemed the death a suicide. That means an assessment has been made within forty two minutes of viewing the scene. The report written by Detective Weederman twenty seventh of June twenty fourteen states Detective Sergeant Kirkman read the statements out to us. The statements from
Simmons and Price were consistent and corroborated the scene. We assessed these comments contrast with the statement made by Kirkman eighth of November twenty eighteen, where he states there were inconsistencies. Once a crime scene is dismantled and cleaned, you can
never recreate it. To be exact, the determination by Rockingham detectives to deem the case non suspicious and to remove the protected crime scene without calling experts conducting some basic investigation was a major mistake and drastically undermined the further investigation. On twenty seventh of June twenty fourteen, the Major Crime Squad assumed responsibility to determine the circumstances of the death
of Amy Wensley. There were obvious limitations forensically, as the crime seene had been cleaned and future interpretations were based on some assumptions. Simmons and Price were formally interviewed, children interviewed and statements obtained from relevant witnesses. In total, sixty six exhibits were lodged for holding or further examination. Detective Sergeant Evans provided his final report on the fourth of November twenty fourteen. His conclusion was no criminality has been
identified in this matter. No evidence indicates third party involvement in the death of Amy and as such the matter to be treated as a suicide with compilation of a coronial file. The facts in the report of Evans are wrong, one being police were called at five fifty pm when in fact it was five twenty pm. Secondly, Amy spoke to her mother at four forty five pm, but it
was confirmed to be five pm. The comment in the report, Forensic analysis was conducted on the shotgun and cartridges and nothing was identified that would indicate criminality in the death of Wenesley. In my opinion, this shows a closed mind to other possibilities. The absence of fingerprints or DNA does not equate to no criminality, It just means it did not assist the investigation. The final comments in Evans report
are premature. They may be based on verbal reports, but the final written forensic reports were not completed to twenty fifteen and further testing was requested early twenty fifteen.
The crime model sets out five key investigative.
Strategies, one being to minimize tunnel vision and or premature closure. In my opinion, there was a failing of the Major Crime Squad and the report of Detective Sergeant Evans, fourth of November twenty fourteen supports my view of premature closure. The major crime squad investigation was impacted by decisions of Rockingham detectives because of the dismantling of the crime scene and the fact they were not formally interviewed on the night.
Ron Dalls acknowledges domestic violence was looked into.
But very limited was done on the initial night, other than to check on the police database.
He refers to the statement by Amy's friend Shelley Stanley, who called crime Stoppers only days after Amy died, saying, you know, I thought that it.
Was important that police knew that she was in an abusive relationship and that David had an explosive temper.
The person said, I'll pass.
It on to the detective and if they think that it warrants investigation, someone will contact you back. The next time I was actually contacted by police was for the cold case review, many many years later.
She reported to police her concerns it was not followed up. All detectives can investigate domestic violence matters and pursue issues which may arise. Firstly, you need information of evidence to follow and it appears they have done that, but somehow the information by Shelley Stanley was not properly recorded or documented. Domestic violence can be an attributing factor to homicide or a suicide, and as a rule, the investigator presents that
evidence in determining an outcome. To establish if someone took their own life or not, there are limited avenues to explore. Health records provide some level of detail. Friends and associates can provide evidence of research. Amy Wensley's medical records were obtained from Pinjarramedical Center and some witnesses gave their own opinion. All examinations have been conducted for this type of incident or offense. The non preservation of the original crime scene
was an error. It's not unusual to conduct tests on a crime scene post the offense, as often by the time a crime is reported, the scene has been cleaned. Over All, the forensic investigation has been thorough. The review conducted by the Cold Case Unit of the Homicide Squad by Detective Sergeant Jo is of a high standard. During the review, they undertook strategies around Simmons and price to maximize evidence gathering. In my view, details of the strategies
would involve public interest immunity. The outcome is not detailed in the report. Ron eddallsm APM, retired Detective Senior Sergeant, Victoria Police.
Eighth of January twenty twenty.
One, I reached out to Shelley, who told me that despite being a fair bit older than Amy, they became friends because her ex partner used to catch up with Simmons a fair bit due to their mutual love for hunting. She still remembers when she first learned of Amy's death.
My partner at the time knocked on my door and there must have been the next day and said.
Amy's dead.
And I was like, what.
What are you talking about, and couldn't really comprehend what he was saying to me.
I was like, how do you know?
And he said he was at work, he saw it on the shorts for the news or something, and he recognized the driveway up to the house, so he apparently drove down there.
He got stopped on the driveway by police.
Once I'd heard that supposedly it was suicide, I just couldn't believe that.
That was possible.
I knew that Amy was in the process of getting organized to leave Dave, and I warned her to be careful and that it was a dangerous time and to be safe.
I didn't think that that would happen, but.
I was worried because I had seen Dave's explosive temper.
Despite initially believing Amy had met with thou Play, Shelley's ex partner changed his mind when he eventually caught up with Simmons.
Dave told him.
Things like, they tested my hands for gunshot residue and there was none, so that proves I didn't kill her. And from my understanding over everything that's come since then is I don't think the police did do any residue tests on the boys, and as.
We know, if they had, gune residue would have been found on their clothes anyway, because they had been shooting guns all afternoon. I asked Shelley what her ex partner thought about her reaching up to the police.
I didn't say first up because I knew that he would.
Not be happy that I called.
Police, So I actually said that the police had called me, and yeah, he went right off.
He was not happy.
Shelley recalls the incident when she saw Simmons lose his temper.
One of the days that we visited their house in Serpentine, David had invited us over there for a barbecue, so he went over during the day, but we ended up in the dam.
We had some drinks of fair few drinks, or many of us did. Amy didn't. She barely drank.
The only time she usually drank alcohol was if Dave pushed her into it, and then she would maybe have one drink.
Eventually, Nancy and Rick came and the kids were playing on the kayak and that.
But at some stage the kids the girls were saying they were hungry, and Nancy was like, you know, we should go back and cook the barbecue, but Dave was pretty hell bent on keeping on drinking.
We did end up down at the house and.
Nancy was going to go inside and make the girls sandwiches or something, because it was pretty obvious by that stage that David wasn't going to do barbecue. And David straightway flared up at Nancy's and he was really rude to her.
I mean, he was quite drunk as well, and then Rick.
Stepped in and said, don't you talk to my wife like that, and it just got Dave went from zero to one hundred straight away, started pushing and shoving and trying to have a fight with Nancy's husbands, and Amy and Nancy both intervened. Amy was the one that sort of peeled them apart in the end and calmed Dave down and stuff. But yeah, he was ready to go
full throttle and fight Rick. And it was really it was based on him being rude to Nancy, who was just trying to look out for the girls who were hungry.
And what about any sort of violence towards Amy.
I didn't see like specific physical violence towards her, but it's really hard to explain, but the way he spoke to her and was quite demeaning at times.
And one time we were camping out at the farm and I can't remember what.
It was about.
He basically I think he was trying to pressure Amy into drinking, and she was like, no, no, I think one of us should be sober.
You know, we're here with the girls.
It's important somebody sober. I don't want to drink. And he was like, go on, you know, pressuring it, go on, you know, don't be.
Don't be boring. You're always said boring, you know.
He just carried on on on, pressuring her, and in the end she relented and she's like, oh fine, so she had one drink, but he just kept on sort of at her, and to the point where I felt the need to.
Sort of say, you know, you really should appreciate.
Amy issues looking out for you girls and doing the right thing, and you know, she's an amazing person. Don't you think you should sort of speak to her more nicely? And then he said, oh, so you won't return.
Out, do you?
Is that what you like? You know, straight away because I spoke.
Highly of Aiming, Yeah, he's straightway started insinuating that there was something more to that, which was just ridiculous seeing footage of Dave and Gareth and Rachel sort of.
This far down the track.
Even back then, I felt like Aiming never.
Really fitted in with that group.
She was very education orientated for her girls, like she was very Yeah, she was very determined that her girls were going to get the best of her. She's spent a lot of time and effort educating them, trying to teach them to read, to tie shoelaces, to.
You know, you name it.
She just didn't fit in with that redneck, hill billy peak shooting, drunken drug taking.
Sort of world, a world she was hoping to escape a year after his first statement, mister Riddles submits an addendum.
Today, thirteenth of January twenty twenty one.
I was provided with an unredacted copy of the internal review conducted by Detective Senior Sergeant Bryan Hunter, dated fourteenth of May twenty twenty. I've been asked by counsel assisting the family to make comment on the investigator analysis, in particular points one to fifteen. I have read the documents and agree with all points one to fifteen. They are
all very sound and valid points. The most significant two points at the bottom of page thirty four of the document are the death occurred following a violent domestic altercation between Simmons and the deceased. The deceased died as a result of a gunshot to the head in her and Simmons' bedroom. The two circumstances overwhelmingly demanded the investigation bethorough and to the highest standard. Detective Senior Sergeant Hunter's report is a very candid assessment.
He's referring to the WA Police Internal Affairs Unit report, of which we also have a copy. Despite what uniformed officers advised him when he arrived on scene, it was noted that Kirkman stated in his interview that he was treating the matter as a sudden death under the Coroner's Act, not a criminal investigation.
Treat these matters as sudden death until such time as it looked suspicious.
When I turned up, I didn't know either way.
Here is an excerpt of its findings in relation to the conduct of detectives Kirkman and Wiederman on the knight Amy died.
Apart from their observations at the scene, they failed to seek any other independent corroboration of Simmons and Price's statements. They classified Simmons and Price as witnesses and requested statements be obtained from them by junior inexperienced staff. This was prior to making any assessment of criminality. They failed to speak to Simmons or Price to clarify inconsistencies or obtain
further details from them. They failed to attempt to establish a timeline of events to confirm or rebut the account of Simmons or Price, i e. What time the deceased had arrived home, who she was with that day, time of death, etc. They failed to speak or cause any inquiries with Joshua Brydon, who was apparently also present during
the physical altercation with the deceased. They failed to speak to the deceased mother, who Kirkman knew had received a phone call from the deceased shortly prior to her death. They failed to seek further information from family or friends
of suicidal ideation or previous domestic violence incidents. Apart from checking the deceased hands and maybe arms, did not know of any other injuries to her, failed to make any inquiries concerning the missing door handle inside the bedroom or even recognized it may have been evidence of a struggle. Failed to make inquiries of the service station as to
Simmons and Price's actions there. Kirkman incorrectly determined the trajectory of the projectiles was low to high, and theorized in his interview the deceased had rested the butt of the firearm on the ground before pulling the trigger. BPA expert analysis states the firearm was likely perpendicular when fired. Failure to interview Robert Simmons about him entering the scene and handling the firearms prior to police attendants, failure to make
detailed notes of their actions and decisions. They failed to consider the following forensic procedures were necessary, Seizure of Simmons and Price's clothing, view and photograph Simmons as a result of a violent altercation, Seizure of the deceased vehicle for evidentary material blood patterns, damage, glass fragments, fingernail scrapings of Simmons and Price, fingernail scrapings of the deceased. Wiederman and ultimately Kirkman based their assessment of this incident on the
assumption Simmons and Price were telling the truth. However, in these circumstances, that assumption is an unsafe approach and they should have not made the decision based on their limited level of investigation. Further investigation was necessary and Major Crime Squad should have been informed of the matter to make their determination. It has been found that Kirkman and Wiederman
neglected their duty by not adequately investigating this matter. In the first instance, they failed to identify or attend to matters of inquiry against the WA Police Force Investigation doctrine. No criminal element to this matter was identified. The recommendation was to refer the matters to the Integrity Review Panel for consideration of issuance of an assistant Commissioner's warning notice.
The subject officers were notified of the IAU investigation outcomes through an early assessment notice on fifteen April twenty twenty. Both Wiederman and Kirkman were issued with an ACWN Brian Hunter Detective Senior Sergeant, Internal Affairs Unit.
This was dated fourteen May twenty twenty, So despite this complete dereliction of duty, Weederman and Kirkman were both let off with warnings. Now it's worth noting that only Weederman remains on the WA Police Force payroll. Kirkman left some time after the inquest findings came out. Meanwhile, the coroner had an entire section in her findings about mister Iddle's report and cross examination, which included the following observations of note.
In the context of the thousand or so suspicious deaths, mister Iddles has investigated only a small number involved women and firearms, and of those only a couple involved a female committing suicide. In those cases, the firearm used was a handgun, and he had never been involved in a case where a female person committed suicide with a shotgun.
In terms of firearm deaths generally, mister Iddle's commented that the position in which Amy was found is not the position you would normally find someone who used a firearm to harm themselves. In his experience, most of these cases either have the person seated in a chair or lying on a bed. Therefore, in mister Eddele's opinion, Amy's case
is very unusual and warranted close investigation. Mister Eddles considered the Major Crime Division investigation, which commenced the day after Amy's death, Operation JUNDI, was investigated to a reasonable standard, but was concluded prematurely, given the final comments of the investigating officer were made before final written forensic reports were available in relation to such items as Gareth and David's clothing.
Mister Eddles described the investigators as appearing to have tunnel vision, in the sense that they appeared willing to come to a conclusion before they had all the available evidence. He also noted the investigation was impacted by the decisions of the Rockingham detective's premature closure of the case on the night Amy died. Although mister Idels did not have full access to the investigative materials, he based his opinion upon
the information he did have an opportunity to review. He noted the cold case review left three options open, namely suicide, accident or homicide. Mister iddles expressed the opinion that he did not think the evidence suggested the death occurred by accident, but considered the other two options were open on the evidence. In particular, mister Iddle's indicated his opinion that you still can't rule out homicide on the evidence that has been identified.
Mister Iddle's agreed one evidence that could point to homicide was the biomechanical evidence in relation to the position of her hand, but he also pointed to the position of where it happened, noting that women do not normally use a shotgun to commit suicide, and if it did happen as a suicide, based on his own experience, he would
have expected it to have occurred on the bed. If the death occurred by suicide in the location where Amy was found, and the evidence of Gareth was accepted that the shotgun was first found on the legs, the scenario
does not account for the recoil of the shotgun. Therefore, if it is the case that the bar of the gun was found between Amy's legs, mister Iddle's commented, then we've got an issue there that no one can explain, and the lack of blood spatter and gunshot residue on Amy's right hand on the balance of probabilities, suggested the hand was more likely to have been underneath Amy's thigh at the time of the shooting.
Now, bearing in mind mister Iddle's is not privy to all available evidence, the coroner still chose to seize on his comment that you need more than suspicion, and rather than recommend any action to build on this, she concludes there's nothing more to be done due to the failure by detectives to investigate thoroughly at the start.
I note the history of this matter, including a previous referral by a coroner to the Director of Public Prosecutions under Section twenty seven, Part five of the Coroner's Act, which included the first report of Professor Ackland. Under that section, I may also make a referral to the Director of Public Prosecutions if I believe in diet of offense has
been committed in connection with Amy's death. Although the required standard of proof in an inquest is lower than the criminal standard of proof, in making my findings, I have applied the Briginshaw principle, which requires a consideration of the nature of the allegations when considering what standard of proof
is necessary to support a judicial finding. In this case, the allegations of involvement in concealment of a homicide are patently very serious and could have grave consequences for individuals, so I consider I require particularly strong or cogent evidence to prove the allegations to my satisfaction. Given I have made an open finding in relation to the manner of death, in my view, there is insufficient evidence for me to be satisfied that an indubtable offense has been committed in
connection with Amy's death. Therefore, I do not propose to refer this case to the Director of Public Prosecutions for further consideration.
But it's not over yet, not by a long way. WA Police has now announced it's dedicating a new team to investigate Amy's case. It's been four years since the cold case investigation ended, but they've acknowledged a number of people have contacted them with new information as a result of our podcast.
The increased media attention has led to numerous calls to crime stoppers. Part of the Special Crime Squad's role is to follow up and determine if any new information has been received that might open avenues for further investigation. To achieve this objective, a team has been formulated to assess new information received and investigate any new leads that may be present. We don't want to give loved ones any false hope. That we can reassure them that the WA
Police will follow up thoroughly and never stop looking. We are always grateful to our media partners for highlighting unsolved cases and to the friends and family who worked with us to seek justice.
Next episode, discrimination, victim blaming, and trying to move the dial on a case where it's easier for the people in power to just do nothing.
There's plenty of loose hands, there's plenty of emerging possible lines of inquiry, there's plenty of strategies that they can employ.
The question is why not?
And the startling new claims sent to WA Police to follow up and yeah, she was dead.
We've been pigging and we'd like founder And then.
We had to burn the clothes because the costs were chasing us and we didn't want them to think that we had anything to do with it.
We both know the now.
You me.
If you knew Amy and have information, any information about her death, we'd love to hear from you. Just email us at The Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot au. That's s E V E N The Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot Au, or visit our website sevenews dot com dot Au forward slash the Truth about Amy. You can also send us an anonymous tip at www dot the Truth about Amy dot com.
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because it really helps new listeners to find us. Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist Liam Bartlett, Sound design Mark Wright, Assistant producer Cassie Woodward, Graphics Jason Blanford, and special thanks to Tim Clark and Brian Seymour. This is a seven News production.