08: Deep Impact

This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a bags packed car running her daughters strapped into the backseat.

Mom told me that she needed to go back inside to grab something.

Panic. I Amy is dead, Sir, I am his dead? Eight Confusion World, about five minutes.

Say sit not to suicide one hundred percent. This is Emercy.

What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy?

The Truth about Amy?

Mum Episode eight.

I'm Liam Bartlett.

And I'm Alison Sandy one two.

I love her lots and she loves me and mummy.

This is a home video just before Amy died, showing a very excited and enthusiastic Tay and her prep class, singing and doing actions again when she gets to the park and she loves.

Me and she loves me.

Tay points to Amy, who's feeling on her phone. M At the end, Amy cheers and claps louder than anyone else.

One man name.

When this was recorded, Amy and Tay's father, David Simmons, had been together almost six years. A lot had happened in that time, and their relationship was coming to a critical juncture. But before we get to that, here's what we know about David simmons life to this point. He was born twenty sixth of January nineteen eighty four to Robert Simmons and Evelyn Foggerty, so when Amy died he was thirty. He had one sister and two half sisters,

I am thirty years of age and live in Serpentine. I am currently self employed. On Thursday, the twenty sixth of June, at about four pm, I was at my home address two seven eighty three Southwest Highway, Serpentine. I was in company with my two friends, Josh Brydon and Gareth Price. It was at this time that my partner, Amy Lee Wensley, arrived home with my two children, who she had just picked up from school. Amy came into the house with the kids and asked me what I

According to evidence provided by Price and Brdon, they were cleaning up the lizard tag, not Simmons.

When I came back into the house, Amy had begun to pack her bags. I asked her what she was doing, and she said that she was going to stay at her mum's house. I helped her pack some items and then took the kids to the car at the front of the property. After the kids were in the car, I went back to see if Amy wanted anything else and if I could help her. Amy said she needed to calm down a little bit before she drove to

So Simmons says, here she was laying down with the gun next to her, while Price said she'd been sitting up with the gun on her lap.

I could see the back of her skull was missing. I went back to the car and told Gareth about Amy. Gareth had been waiting for Amy with the kids and myself. Neither myself nor Gareth have working mobile phones, so we drove to the petrol station nearby to call the ambulance. I did not want the children to find out, so I dropped Gareth at the house then took the kids to Amy's parents house. When I got back from Amy's parents house in Pinjarra, the police had arrived. Where the

Like Gareth, there are other statements David made, once to major Crime and again the cold case but none of these are available. However, information from them are referred to at the inquest. Now, you may recall that David didn't turn up to the Coroner's Court the day he was scheduled to appear. Counsel assisting the family requested a bench warrant, but this wasn't supported by WA Police and Deputy State

Could you state your full name for the court please, David, Robert Simmons and David just for the benefit of the court, for everyone in the court. You contacted the Coroner's Court yesterday to explain that you were feeling a bit overwhelmed with this process, which is why you didn't come yesterday. Is that right, Yes, ma'am. Yes, you're feeling okay today and you're willing to tell the coroner what you remember about Amy's death.

Yes, I can, yes.

All right now, I understand that you've already given statements to the police and you've participated in police interviews about Amy's death. The first statement that you gave was on the twenty sixth of June twenty fourteen, and the night that Amy died. It was a seven page long statement and you wrote that while you were waiting on the roadside at the property belonging to your father. Is that right?

I can't remember exactly, but yes, I do remember talking.

Sorry I just interrupted you. What did you say?

I do remember talking to them? Yes, yes, when.

You spoke to the police on that occasion, would you have told everything that you told them then to be the truth?

Yes? I can't see why not.

Okay, Well, you were then interviewed by the police that Saturday. So on twenty eighth of June twenty fourteen, you were taken to the police station under arrest and you participated in a recorded interview. Do you remember that not as well?

No? I yes, okay. Based do you remember being arrested and taking into Rockingham?

Yes, yes, all right, based on what you do remember, do you think that everything you would have told the police in that interview would have been true?

Yes, ma'am, all right.

So there's nothing that you would want to change based on that interview with the police.

Or a mend I can't really remember either of them, all right.

And just the last interview that you did was on eighth of January twenty nineteen. Yes, Would everything that you said to police on that occasion have been true? Yes, to the best of your memory. Is there anything that you would want to change based on what you said to the police on that day?

No.

Mss Tyler proceeds to the day of Amy's death.

Can you picture that day in your mind?

Yes?

What do you remember about that day?

Me and my partner having an argument and just yes.

Yes, all right. Now, my understanding, we've heard evidence from a lot of different witnesses in the course of this inquest, and we've read a lot of statements that were given very closely after Amy died. Based on that information, my understanding is that Gareth and Rachel came over and stayed at your house the night before, everyone watched a movie, and then the next morning Gareth got up and went to work.

Do you remember that vaguely? Yes?

All right? On that day, twenty sixth of June, you had a plan to go out shopping with one of your friends, Josh Brydon. Is that right?

I think so?

Maybe?

Yes? Cut a little bit of firewood to get by, all right, Goosh.

Has given evidence that he went out with you that morning to chop some wood. Yes, and while you guys were out chopping wood, you didn't have access to your phone, so Josh was sending messages to Amy on your behalf. Do you remember that happening?

I can very vaguely, but yes, yes. My phone was in Jaredale on the rubbish bin. I was staying there at night the night before. And remember that I left it because I couldn't find.

It where in Jaredale at Gareth's.

House because we went up there the night before or yeah, it was it was the night before. We went up there to get something from his place. I can't remember what it was, movies or something, and then we went back to the house. I'd left the phone on the rubbish bin and a pissed down rain that night, so the next day I didn't have a phone.

We know that all the evidence we heard from Josh and garethe is that you went back to You went to Gareth's house with Joshua at around three o'clock, which is when Gareth would have finished work. You picked him up. Do you remember anything about that?

No, no.

Gareth gave some evidence that he jumped on the back of the ute and was drinking some beers from an eski, and that he was passing beers through the windows of the car for you and Josh to drink as well as you went back to your house. Does that ring any bells to you?

I can't remember.

No, that's all right. Do you know if you were drinking that day?

I would usually have a couple, yes, but I'm not sure if I had any that day, I can't remember.

I can't remember, that's all right. We know that at eleven forty six am, so just before lunchtime, Josh sent Amy a message saying, Simo wants to know where you are. That would have been after you had done some wood chopping in the morning, but around lunchtime. So whether you might have gone home or we don't really know where you were at that time. Do you know why you would have been asking after Amy at that time?

Maybe so I could stop in and have some lunch or something. I'm not sure.

Okay, we know that Amy said she was on her way home, and there was some conversation about going down to Gareth's house to pick up your phone. With Amy saying you know, does Simo want me to go down and pick up the phone, and asking Josh to get you to give her a call. Amy sent a message later on to say got his phone, and a message later saying where the fuck are you at twelve forty seven pm. Do you remember getting any of those messages?

I remember, No, I don't know, all right.

Do you remember there being any discussion that day between you and Josh about whether Amy was annoyed that you weren't home or whether there was anything else going on?

No? Okay, no, yes, Like I said, I remember the phone was up there. I remember saying to her that's where it could be, and then I can't remember her telling me she went and got it.

Okay. There were some later messages from Amy to Josh's phone that start at two forty three pm that talk about the wood buyer coming around, and it sounds to me in reading those messages that Amy was pretty stressed about the fact the wood buyer might be coming over and you weren't there, so she sent some messages saying does he know the woodbuyer is coming in fifteen minutes? Did he give the address to the wood buyer? And

No, I don't know.

Do you remember there being an arrangement for the wood buyer to come around?

No?

All right.

In the course of your relationship, we know you were together for nearly six years. If you didn't respond to Amy for a couple of hours on text message, how would she normally react?

Well, I always had a phone, so I would usually message back.

But she was pretty good, okay, So it wasn't really something that came up before in your relationship, any tension if you didn't respond to her.

No, carrying on like that? No?

All right. Well, when you say carrying on like that, is that a reference to what happened later on or is there something else that happened?

No, that's the words you were using just before.

Whether something wouldn't normally send repeated messages saying where are you? What the fuck is going on? Things like that?

No?

Alright, we know from Amy's Facebook messenger that at three point fifty one PM, which is very shortly before I think you and Josh and Gareth say you got him Josh to send a message to Amy saying where are you? Do you know anything about that. Would that have been sent when you got home?

Probably? I can't remember.

Yes, all right, Well where would Amy? Where do you think Amy was just before at that time?

In that time, she would have been picking the kids up from school because they used to catch the bus. They used to catch the bus every day.

All right? What time would they normally get home?

A half past three quarter to four?

Yes, and Amy would have to go down to the bus to meet them. Is that right?

Yes?

Yes, After that message that Josh sent to Amy saying where are you, Amy sent a message back at three point fifty two pm, And it's the last message that we know that Amy sent, and that said gone crazy. Do you remember Josh telling you that?

No?

Do you know what that is in reference to?

No?

Is it your understanding that Amy was unhappy with you that day?

Well, it was clear when when she got home.

Yes, you didn't realize before she got home that she was unhappy with you?

No? No, she Yes, the way she went off that day, I'm not sure how to describe it, but I've never seen her go like that ever before.

All right, so you're at home. Do you remember Amy and the kids getting home?

Yes?

Roughly, not real Well, what do you remember about that?

I don't know. My memory is not real good from that.

Day, that's okay. Do you remember if Amy seemed upset or stressed or if she was her normal self? How did she seem?

She was on edge? For sure? And I suppose from yes, well she I can't remember how it all started or where the kids were exactly and everything, but just but she went and started going off.

All right, And we know that your police interview, you said that she was shitty, she was angry, She was asking what you had been doing, things like that, and you said that she asked you why you didn't wait for her or something, and you said that you went back out to cut some more logs. Yes, all right. Do you remember when your argument we the amysstarted? Do you remember where you were? Were you outside? Were you inside the house?

I think it started outside. I'm not sure, but I remember telling her that I was going out somewhere, and she said, where have I been all day? Or something like that, because she hadn't been able to get a hold of me on the phone, and she knew where the phone was. And then I said, well, I went to Jaredale to pick it up, and she said, well, I already fucking did or something. And yeah, that's how it started, all right.

And what happened after that.

Well, I've said I'm going back out quickly. I'll be back in an hour or something, because I seen a big wild pig out there when I was cutting wood, and I never got told I wasn't allowed to go back out ever, Like if I seen a big boar or something and I grabbed my dogs and went out and got it, I would come back. And I asked her to go with me, and she said, I don't know. She was just going off, going off, and I didn't know what to do because I haven't seen her go

Well, Gareth and Josh still there, do you remember when all this was happening?

Yes?

Yes, do you know where they were?

They were sitting in the kitchen, I think we all were. And then Amy tried to throw a mirror at me. Was the mirror in the hallway, pulled it straight off the wall, and tried to throw it at me, straight at me, yes, straight at my head.

And when you say throw it at you, did she let go of itsh or what happened.

Yes, it smashed all over the place.

You'll note this is inconsistent with what Price and Brydon said. The mirror was still intact according to them, and was moved away by Price so it wouldn't get smashed. Simmons makes no mention of him and Amy heading to the bedroom to argue, like Brydon said in his statement to police. Given that's in line with what Price said as well, it's more likely Brighton also witnessed the entire fight.

It smashed, did it, yes?

I think I've blocked it, hit it away from my.

Arm and so bounced off your hand. Did this yes?

Yes, well I yeah, hit me and then the wall and then smashed.

What happened after she threw it at you?

I realized that it was I don't know. I just grabbed her and I asked her what was wrong? What the hell's going on? Why are you doing this?

Okay? What did she say?

She says, I'm leaving you. I'm leaving you? And I said, well, all right, I don't know. Whatever. I said, Well, you're not driving anywhere like this with the kids in the car. The kids can stay here the night and you can come back and see them tomorrow. What did she say, She said, no, I'm taking the kids. I said, well, go in the room, pack your stuff up or whatever, and I'll pack up the car and put the kids in there, and you can go when you calm down.

Yes, And what did she say to that?

She said, yes, all right. So she was in the room there for I don't know, maybe half an hour, twenty minutes. Yes, and yes, yes, that's when I heard a noise.

Now, remember, Price said, Amy went back and forth from the car about four times.

And I was outside with the kids in the car.

Naya recalls at the time she saw Simmons go back in the house. Miss Tyler returns to the argument they had prior.

We've heard from Gareth and Josh about what they saw In terms of this fight between you and Amy. Gareth gave evidence in his interviews that there was a bit more of a physical part to the altercation between you and Amy. He made reference to Amy punching you. Do you remember that happening?

Yes?

He said that you had Amy in a headlock at one stage. Do you remember that I had to hold her? Yes, restrainer, but yes, it wasn't a headlock. I just had a hands. I can't remember, but it wasn't a headlock. I just like held her close and tried to stop her from carrying on bear hug action. How would you describe it?

Well, I was in the hallway and she was on the floor, and I held her hands and just put on my weight on top of her and I just held her there.

Gareth said that you grabbed or choked or something and then you went to the floor. Did you choke Amy in the course of this fight?

I can't remember.

Do you think you would have?

I don't know. It was pretty pretty violent what she tried to do.

We know that. Well, we've heard evidence from a forensic pathologist at this inquest who said Amy had bruises to her wrists. Do you think she she got those bruises from you holding her down? Yes, she also had some other bruises scattered across her body. Some of the bruises were fresh, some weren't tested to see whether they were fresh. Do you think Amy could have gotten bruises on other parts of her body in this fight with you?

Well, she could have gotten bruises anyway. She was on motorbikes, playing with horses and lived on a farm.

Notice there are no questions about Amy possibly having sustained those bruises in other altercations with him.

In terms of going down to the floor and restraining her there. How did you end up on the floor, do you remember?

I can't remember exactly. No, all right?

And you said the fight effectively ended and Amy calmed down? Is that right?

Yes, she went into the room and she was pretty angry.

We've heard evidence from some of Amy's friends in the course of this inquest, and I think one of them is a person that you know from when you first started your relationship with Amy, miss Selsa. Miss Selsa asked about her view of your relationship with Amy and things that she observed, and miss Selsa expressed real surprise at the suggestion that you would be the one calming an argument down. Her understanding of you is that you would be very unlikely to react calmly if Amy was ever

No, I've never later had and on Amy in my life.

Now, if Simmons is to be believed here, it begs the question why would Natasha Selsa make that up. He then goes on to say how Amy was the violent one, even recalling an incident where she once hog tied him.

And I've been hit. I've been hit by her multiple times. And a couple of weeks before that, I got home from pig hunting. We were supposed to go to a kid's birthday party. I'd come home and I was buggered, and I went to sleep. I said, give me a couple of hours sleep and I'll get up and we'll go. And I woke up and my hands taped together behind my back, and my feet taped together, my mouth tape shut, and I was in bed and she was just laughing at me.

When was this?

This was about two weeks before well, I can't remember exactly before she killed herself.

Did Amy untie you?

Yes? Eventually?

What did she say about that? Why did that happen?

She said, we were supposed to go to this kid's birthday party. Blah blah blah blah. That's what you get for coming home and not doing what you said you were going to do.

There is no one else who can verify this actually happened. We can only rely upon simmons word. Mss Tyler then asks about the incident Natasha witnessed of Simmons bending Amy's back over a table and grabbing her by the throat when she was nine months pregnant.

No, not possible. Not possible, because we by the time Amy was three months pregnant, and we decide we're going to have it. Within two weeks, I had my own house and it furnished. No one lived with us at all.

I've misunderstood. I'm sorry. Apparently miss Selsa was visiting Amy.

No, I don't remember that.

Are there any incidents in your relationship with Amy where you were the aggressor where you were violent towards her?

Yes, I can remember one time that I was violent to her, but I didn't physical hurt her. I just restrained her again and just said, look, if you're going to keep carrying on like that, you're best off leaving instead of trying to make me upset.

Okay, we know that Amy sent a message to Aaron Claybrook, who's another friend of hers, saying that she had an argument with you about your drinking and that she punched you. And after she punched you, you grabbed her, and she said the words chucked her around the room. Do you remember an argument like that?

No, Missus Tyler is referring to Erin Gower, who has since married.

Did Amy ever leave you?

Well, I suppose if she was upset, I had to go because she had the house, had the kids, so I was only really No, she never but this that day she said she was leaving me. Yes, she done it.

How did you react to that information? Were you worried about her about losing the kids?

Well, of course, but she'd flown off the handle a few times before, so I just sort of thought she was just going to go and calm down and come back. And but this time she never.

We know that. Very shortly before Amy died, Nancy called her and she spoke to her mom and she told her mom that she had had a big fight with you, that she had thrown a beer bottle at you and that and she had punched you, and she said that you then wrestled her to the ground and there had been a fight between you.

Yes.

Do you remember Amy throwing a beer bottle at you?

I can't remember the beer bottle. No, I've never seen her go like that before, ever, like that angry.

Were you yelling at her?

Yes? I did yell at her.

Yes, Now you might recall, Brydon said, Simo never yelled instead asking Amy calmly, have I ever hurt you? Have I ever hit you, with Amy replying.

No, you have hurt me.

You have never hit me.

I said, there's no need to smash the fucking house up, and if you're going to leave, calm down and piss off. I said, yes, well like yes, it was not my house. I had to pay rent. Then you know, if she's going to smash the house up, she's going to I don't know.

We just we heard from your dad that he let you stay there rent free.

Well, I don't know, I can't remember. Yes.

Miss Tyler asks if he's embarrassed about having the fight in front of Brydon and Price, to which Simmons replies yes. He's then asked if he tried to go into the main bedroom at any point.

Yes. I knocked on the door about three or four times, asking if she was all right. She just just kept saying no, not yet, not ready.

All right. Do you remember there being any problems with the door handle of that bedroom.

No.

One.

Unusual thing that was noticed in the cold Case homicide review in twenty nineteen, I think is that the outside door handle in the hallway to the bedroom is attached, but inside, the door handle was missing, and we know that after Amy died and professional cleaners entered the room, that door handle was reattached. Do you know anything about that missing door handle?

Not?

In my I can't recall.

No, you don't remember there being any ever problems with the door handle.

No.

Here he discusses the lizard tank incident.

When I told her she wasn't driving anywhere, I think she walked out to the shed, went through the shed, flipped the well through, the bloody lizard tank smashed all over the floor.

Did you see her do that?

No, but I heard it.

Do you remember anyone else telling you that?

No?

Do you remember the kids saying anything about the smashed lizard tank? No, So she Amy went out to the shed and smashed the lizard tank before she went back to the bedroom.

Yes, I think so. Yes.

One of the big concerns I think for the family is that Amy's clothes were packed in the car, as were Tay's birthday presents and belongings for the children, and the family find it really difficult to reconcile that Amy had packed up clothes ready to go with the kids in the car and then decided to go into the bedroom and commit suicide. Can you shed any light on why the car might have been packed up with her belongings like she was leaving.

I just told you I packed it all in there for her. She was telling me what to put in there, and she didn't come out of the room.

So Amy didn't do any trips out to the car to load stuff up.

No, okay, well I can't remember. She might have.

We moved to the part where the kids are in the car and Simmons and Price are with them.

Was there any reason you put music on just so the.

Kids weren't sitting there just without any music on? I don't know.

Were you doing anything else outside the car?

No?

You know that?

Nao was interviewed by police, Yes, and said that while you were at the car, she saw you use the twenty two shot gun to shoot at a tree. Do you remember anything about that?

Yes? Yes, yeah, I did have the twenty two out.

Yes, where was that? Where did you get it from?

It was my rifle. I shot it. The parrots used to eat my olives off the olive tree, so I was trying to thin the parrots out.

Did you go into the house to get your gun?

No, it was in the it was in the gun safe in the shed.

In the shed, right, Yes, So you went into the shed to get the gun.

Yes?

And what did you do with the gun after you had shot at the parrots?

Can't remember where it was where I put it.

Did you take the gun into the bedroom at.

Any point, No, not that I can remember. No.

Did you go into the bedroom at any point before you heard the sound?

Not that I can remember.

So that's it. Simmons says he can't remember going back into the room or taking the gun into the bedroom.

What can you tell me about the sound that made you? Where were you when you heard this sound that we've referred to.

I was standing on the driver's side of the commodore and I heard this. It was a thud and I just ran. I ran into the bedroom. I knocked on the door, no answer, and that's when I opened the door and the door hit her leg and that's just the life come out of me. And I just couldn't believe what had happened. I ran outside bawling my eyes out.

Yellen, why was anyone else around?

Then Gareth came around the corner, asking what's going on? And I said, she shot herself don't go in there. Don't go in there.

Remember. In Price's testimony, he recalls Simo asking is she alive? But, as one of the detectives pointed out, the discrepancies show an original line of thought, and rather than explain the ongoing inconsistencies, Simmons is asked again about where they were when they heard the thud.

Again, So can you take me through that a bit more slowly? And I know it's not pleasant to talk about. You were at the commodore, Yes, were you talking to the kids?

I remember hearing the noise and running inside and opening the door.

Yes, where was garis.

Standing at the boot? We were just putting stuff in.

Again. In Price's testimony, he says Amy didn't want his help when he asked. All he recalls doing is holding the door open for her.

Can you describe the noise for me?

Just a thud, A loud thud.

You're familiar with guns. Did it sound like a gunshot to you?

It sounded close.

It sounded close. Well, it's always been a thud, not a blast or even a crack. Simmons is again asked to clarify the thud as a gunshot.

When you say you ran inside. Did you run at speed or did you walk? How fast were you moving?

I ran as quick as I could.

Is that because you knew it was a gunshot and sounded like a gunshot to you?

I suppose yes, it was just yes.

I know it's hard to think back on exactly what you were thinking at that point, but that's what I'm asking. Do you know what you were thinking when you heard that noise?

Yes? I thought it was a gunshot.

Simmons says he was in the door first and doesn't know where Gareth was at this time. He says he ran around to the back door, through the hallway to the room.

Okay, And when you get to the hallway, you're at the room. Do you remember whether the door is open or closed?

Closed?

And you've gone to the door handle and pushed it open? Is that right?

Yes?

Did you push it open gently? Did you push it open forcefully? Do you remember?

Yes? I pushed it open slowly, slowly.

Did you go straight in or did you poke your head around the corner.

I just looked around the corner. I didn't go in. I shut the door all right.

When you looked around the corner, you've said the door hit Amy's leg. Do you remember which part of her leg it hit?

Yeah, like a knee area about there somewhere, I think.

And you've pointed to your left knee or her right knee. He left her left knee. Yes, we have photographs that were taken by the responding police. I don't want it, so I'm not going to show them to you, but they show her body in a particular position. And one of the main concerns at this inquest is that the position that Amy's body ended up in seems inconsistent with her pulling the trigger herself. One of the major issues is that her right hand was underneath her buttock or figh.

No?

Are you certain that the door hit Amy's left leg?

Yes?

Was Amy facing towards the door or away from the door when you entered the room towards the door? Was she leaning against the wall?

I think so to the right. Yes, I come in the door. She was sitting the same angle as I'm on and I think she was leaning like that.

Like facing you if you come through the door.

I can't I can't remember, I can't remember.

No, do you remember seeing the gun, Yes, where was it in between her legs? And I ask about the gun because again, the position that the gun ended up in, based on the descriptions given by Garrett and potentially yourself, isn't necessarily consistent with where the gun would land if

Can't remember exactly.

No, And just so you're clear, we obviously have had the chance to read your interviews with the police as well, and when you gave your description of where the gun was in those interviews, you said it was either across her legs, or between her legs, or to the side. So it seems that you weren't terribly clear when you spoke to the police about where the gun was. Is that's still consistent with your memory? You're not sure.

Vaguely, I thought it was in the middle and across one leg, but I can't I can't say because I can't remember exactly right.

Do you know how long you would have been in the room or looking in the room looking at Amy.

A couple of seconds.

Now, the fact that David had three different versions of where the gun was upon finding Amy's body should be enough to count his testimony as unreliable. But as we mentioned before, these discrepancies were just put down to trauma and or alcohol consumption, which seems to be the same excuse for why he didn't remember his dad was home.

Okay, so did you think about going to your dad's Yes?

I did.

Yes, And the.

Reason you didn't go up to your dad's is because you didn't know if he was at home or not. Yes, all right, so there has been a decision to go to the roadhouse.

Yes.

Do you remember Naya asking any questions about the bins or any comments being made about the No? No, did you drop anything off in the bins on the way in or out of the property?

No?

Later, he's asked about drinking on the night Amy died.

Do you think you were drunk the night that Amy died at any point before she died?

I can't remember. I don't think so.

Had you taken any drugs that day?

No?

Do you remember being taken to the police station having some forensic procedures after Amy died. The police took your clothes and did some things like that. Yes, did they ask you what you were wearing when Amy died?

They probably would have. I can't remember.

When you were interviewed in twenty nineteen, the police asks you if you knew why you were being interviewed, and you said to them it's because you's didn't do your job properly. Is that your perception of this?

Most probably?

Yes?

What's your understanding if police had done in your words, what do you think they would have found?

Well, it wouldn't have to carry on like this for many years and make me, you know, try not to. How can I move on until the shit disordered? You know, it's their fault, really, it's not mine. I haven't done nothing wrong.

Just to be clear, you weren't in the room when the gunshot was fired that ended Amy's life.

No, I was not in the room.

And when you spoke to police, is everything you said truthful?

Yes?

Miss Tyler refers to a message Amy sent to Simmons on the twenty fifth of June twenty fourteen. The night before she died. Amy had gone to the cinema with Rachel that night to watch twenty two Jump Street.

I want this to work this time, and I mean it. I know I've said it so many times, but this time it's going to be my aim to my girl and my girls.

I want my family to stay together. I mean that. I'm going to give it my all to make it work. But it's all just words like you say. So it's up to you, babe. I'm over being a no hoper and I need change to save me and what I love, which is my little family. I just want to be happy. So we'll stand by you with whatever decision you make. Love you, my friend's going to die any second. Love you night.

Did you ever get that message?

Not that I can remember.

No, that message was sent the night Gareth and Rachel were staying over. Well, David says he can't remember it. He certainly doesn't seem surprised by its contents.

What's she talking about when she says she's over being a no hoper? What is she wanting to change?

Well, it definitely wasn't me to change, you know. I don't everything too for that family, for them. I don't know whether she was on drugs or not. That's why I wanted to know if there was any illicit drugs in her system.

We've done forensic testing. There were no illicit drugs in her system when she died.

Yes, what about my medication?

There was anti depression medication in her systems SI talipram because she was prescribed to her. Yes, why do you ask that? What are your concerns about that?

A couple of days before I checked my tablets and I was low on them. I said to her, look, I need to go get my script done. I don't remember that it ran out that quick. And she said she'd been taken them.

Taking your medication. Yes, I've asked you a lot of questions today. Is there anything else that you know about Amy's death that you think could assist the coroner to make the findings that she has to make.

I don't think I can help her. I don't know. I just want it to be over.

Thank you, mister Simmons. I have no further questions.

Deputy State Coroner Sarah Linton then says this.

Mister Simmons, I'm the coroner. Just before I pass you over to some lawyers. There's lawyers for the family, lawyers for the police, who might ask you some questions. I just wanted to ask you one thing, Miss Tyler, hasn't necessarily covered in full for my benefit. You keep saying was Amy on drugs? And we've clarified that she didn't have any drugs in her system? Were you using drugs around the time yourself illicit drugs?

I don't think so.

No.

Gareth has given some evidence that the two of you did take drugs together.

Yes, but not at that specific time.

So you used illicit drugs prior to Amy's death with Gareth, yes, yes, right, and he says you hadn't taken drugs that day or he certainly hadn't and he didn't recall doing it with you. Had you taken any drugs that day?

No?

No, all right, but you say you had a beer or two. Yes, but you don't recall being intoxicated on the day.

No.

When the police picked you up the next night to take you in for interviewing, had you been drinking then, yes, you had to kind of sober up before you could be interviewed. Do you remember that.

Yes? Yes.

For those of you who listened to the inquest into the disappearance of Marion Barter from the Lady Vanish's podcast. You'll notice how differently David Simmons was treated in this inquest compared to Rick Blum. The manner and approach of counsel assisting Adam Casselton and New South Wales Coroner Teresa

Ol I totally agree David Simmons is being treated as a victim. This inquest was supposed to explore three possibilities that led to her death suicide, accident or homicide. Accept it seems they were only focused on suicide for example, the last message Amy sent to David, I want this to work this time, and I mean it. They honed straight in on the line about her no longer wanting to be a no hoper, not the line where she's

I just want to be happy.

It's very clear that this time she's leaving for good.

Well available evidence backs that up. Yes, they always argued over his excessive drinking, but David said to Amy was going off more than usual. She was going off because of the message she sent in the night before. It wasn't about the wood buyer or the lack of communication. They were provocations, but the real issue was that Amy knew he had chosen his drinking and other bad habits over her and their fan Emily he didn't love her enough to change, and she had been young enough to

What's wrong? What the hell is going on? Why are you doing this?

I'm leaving you.

I'm leaving you well, all right, whatever, Well, you're not driving anywhere like this with the kids in the car. The kids can stay here the night and you can come back and see him tomorrow.

No, I'm taking the kids.

Well, go in the room, pack your stuff up or whatever, and I'll pack the car up and put the kids in there and you can go and calm down.

Yes, all right.

So, at some stage during their fight, Simmons says, Amy flips the lizard tank in the shed in response to him telling her she wasn't driving anywhere. Price says he sees Amy leaving the shed and entering the house with Simmo trailing behind, who says something to her.

Like fuck off to your mother's.

Then, while Amy's packing, Simmons says he speaks to Amy through the bedroom door, asking her to calm down before driving, before returning to the car where Price and the children are. So he was in that house alone with her. The Deputy State Coroner even acknowledges it in her findings.

Gareth did give evidence that David shot a parrot with a twenty two rifle, which was later found in the bedroom, and he conceded David may have put it away there, but Gareth was clear in his evidence that David was near him outside at the time he heard the thud, and then followed David to the house and opened the door for him to enter.

Now, there seems to be a bit of confusion over this because in at least one of the police statements it has Simmons' twenty two rifle being found in the back of his ute. However, in the coroner's findings, four of five firearms and ammunition were seized from the bedroom Amy was founding, excluding a Magnum crossbow recovered from the shed. There's specific mention of a high powered rifle located in

Did daddy shoot at it one time or lots of times?

Six?

So he shot at it all right? Said that daddy put it away in the mirror cupboard and How did you see Daddy put it away in the mirror cupboard?

Because I saw the window.

Okay, tell me what could you see through the window?

Dad?

Okay? What could you see Dad doing.

Putting the gun away in the mirror cupboard?

And what else could you see?

Nothing else? Just mum okay, trying to go to sleep.

You could see Mom trying to go to sleep.

What was she doing trying to go to sleep?

Okay? What do you mean like she was trying.

To go to sleep in her bed? When Tad wakes are up? She can drive us.

Now, just a REMINDERR on this. Maya's evidence is inadmissible because she was only six years old at the time. But if what she says is true, Simmons did go back into the room, which makes sense because the firearm that Naa describes was found in the wardrobe. Now going back to this thud, of which the assumption has always been that it was the sound of Amy shooting herself

The only person who does treat David Simmons as a suspect during the proceedings is counsel assisting the family, Peter Ward. Here he questions David Simmons about the rubbish bins, specifically asking if police searched them that.

Night, wouldn't have a clue.

Now, you saw Gareth go out and put something in the bins? Do you remember that?

No?

Can you remember Gareth walking down the driveway to put stuff in the bins?

I don't think so. I can't remember well when.

Miss Tyler first asked you about that. You seem to have a bit of a smirk on your face, as if you were thinking something about the bins?

Was is there any right the right of the bloody driveway right at the gate? That's I thought, and Nea asked when they mentioned na, it made me feel good.

What So it wasn't because there was something put in those bins that you were glad the police didn't find.

No, I don't know what you're on about.

Now.

I want to ask you a couple of more questions about the incident Natasha Selsa described. So, that was the night before Tay was born. You came home and you had been drinking and you had a couple of tokes of iyes. Do you remember that?

Where was where was Amy in that? At the hospital, at the unit in Kelmscott the night before Tay was born. Yes, we were in the hospital for two days, nearly she was in labor, in and out of labor.

Did you take her to the hospital.

I don't know. I can't remember. We had the cars impounded, so someone had to take us, so we walked.

She walked to hospital, nine months pregnant and in labor.

Yes.

Isn't it the case that Natasha Celsa took her to the hospital.

I don't know. I can't remember.

Because you were still out of it, asleep from the night before. Pardon you were still out of it from the night before, weren't you.

Well, if you're telling me this story, why are you asking all these questions?

Just answer the questions the best that you can, recall, mister Simmons, and it'll go a lot quicker.

Not that I remember.

No, that night when you got home and you had an argument with Amy, you grabbed her around the throw, didn't.

You, No, sir, I can't remember.

At this point, David Simmons gets agitated and says he should have brought a lawyer. This prompts a Deputy State Coronet to say.

You do have a right to say you don't want to answer questions on the grounds you might incriminate yourself. You haven't done this so far. I have the accounts you've given, and the account you've given today is consistent with that with the police, and that you had a right to have a lawyer and not give to talk

If it gets to there.

But the questions mister Ward's asking you, now, I wouldn't think would necessarily incriminate you in a particular way. But you've always got that at the back of your mind, and mister Ward's just going to keep asking questions in a reasonable way. If you don't understand them, just let him know. He will explain it and we'll all be able to keep on going. And you know, once we get through this, you'll be able to finish your evidence and go okay.

So just yes, you told police you'd never hit Amy. That's not true, is it.

I've never hit Amy. No.

Mister Ward changes tack and instead asks about the car accident where he was driving and Amy sustained serious injuries and was forced to wear a halo.

So she had the brace on for a few months. Even after she got it off, she had a soft brace on her neck for a while, didn't she, Yes, she got pain in it for How long did that last for quite a while, yes, pretty much. So even up to her death, she was still sometimes having problems with her neck.

Yes, I think so. Well, it just wasn't comfortable, you know, she just wasn't comfortable with it.

Did it affect how she could move her head?

Yes. After she had the accident, she used to move a lot more like that than moving her neck.

David Simmons is indicating moving from the waist up because Amy was unable to move just her neck, which is what she would have had to have done had she shot herself in the right temple. According to the trajectory, blood spatter and the gunshot wound.

She used to move with the top half of her.

Chest, so her neck was pretty stiff. It was the whole shoulders in everything moving.

Yes.

Peter Ward outlines to David the chain of events leading to Amy's debth and what he thinks could have occurred.

You went back into the house. The kids are sitting in the cart, Gareth is outside or he's in the garage picking up the reptile tank. Yes, you've gone back in. You've gone to the bedroom door. You've tried to talk to Amy through the door. You're with me so far. Yes, okay. Now what you told please then, is that you're trying to open the door and that she physically blocked it. Was that true?

I can't remember.

But you told police that two days after this happened. Do you think you might have been telling the truth there?

Well?

I can't remember exactly now, so whatever I said then would have been close. Yes, right.

You told police that you thought she had put her foot behind the door to block it. Do you remember that?

No.

I'm going to tell you what I think happened from that point, and I want you to tell me what your response to that is. You didn't like her pushing that door shut as you were trying to open it. You then pushed your way into the room and Amy was stuck behind the door. She was hiding behind the door. Did that happen?

No.

After you entered the room, you picked up the buoyte rifle. You were arguing with her, and you pointed the rifle at her. Did that happen?

No?

She was hiding behind the door and you held the gun against her head. Did that happen? No? Amy tried to fend it off. She grabbed hold of the barrel with her left hand. Did that happen?

No?

And the gun went off and you just dropped the gun in her lap. Did that happened?

No?

She was sitting on the ground and you were holding the gun and I'm just going to demonstrate you were holding the gun down by your side in your right hand. Did that happen No? And the gun went off and you just dropped the gun in her lap. Did that happen?

No?

And then you ran outside and that was when Gareth saw you, saying oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck. Do you remember running out and saying that?

No?

You and Gareth then decided to tell people that she shot herself. Isn't that right?

No.

Gareth has given some evidence that you said the words why would she do that? Do you remember saying those words?

No?

I suggest to you you did say that, but you weren't referring to her shooting herself. You were referring to her locking you out and making you angry again.

I don't know what you're trying to get at, but you're wrong.

You were also referring to her being gutless after that. You weren't referring to her shooting herself. You were referring to her cowering behind the door.

Weren't she I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this, mate, But you're way off track.

Do you deny that you were holding the gun when Amy suffered the shotgun wound?

Can you ask that again?

You deny that you were holding the gun when Amy suffered the shotgun wounds?

I was not holding the gun. No, I was outside when I heard the noise, and when I went inside she was dead.

See.

I said at the outset of these questions that I thought that almost everything you said about what happened on that day was true. I want to suggest this to you. Everything you said about what happened on that day was true, except for those questions we've just gone through about you pushing your way into the room, picking up the gun and holding it against her head when it went off because you were upset that she had shut the door

Well, I don't know if he can answer why police believed him. It's a matter for mission.

Really, You've got to look at the evidence, don't you, mate, and all the other stuff. What you're trying to tell me is something that didn't happen. So I'm not lying and I'm not holding anything back. I know I've lost the best person in my whole life, and now I have to live with it and listen to people like you and whoever is trying to blame me for it because they can't have closure on themselves because they don't

Mister Ward, do you have any more questions?

I have no further questions Your honor.

Her honor then checks with counsel assisting WA police, who astonishingly or perhaps not, indicates there are no questions for David Simmons.

All right, Thank you very much, David. I've heard what you've had to say. I'm the coroner, so I'm the one listening to your evidence and all the other evidence and bearing that in mind. Just to go back then, my understanding of what you're telling me is that you and Gareth had nothing to do with Amy being shot in the head that day. Is that right?

That's right?

And you were both standing outside the car and you heard a sound and you went into the house and found Amy behind the door with the shotgun injury. Is that right?

Yes, that's correct, And that's pretty much it. There are just a few minor clarifications of information that has already been provided before, some housekeeping on what happens next, and a big thank you to David Simmons for turning up and then it's over.

I love Loss and she loves me and mummy.

And there's still more to go through in relation to what David Simmons has to say compared to other witnesses and experts, which will continue with in the next episode. In the meantime, we managed to catch up with him recently outside Perth Magistrate's Court, where he's facing four new char after allegedly assaulting a police officer. You'll recall he's already served nine months for assaulting Larry Blandford. When David first sees Liam and the TV crew, he gives him

Hey you go, mate, Liam, I just want to have a chat. Are you David's lawyer? No?

No, no, Oh, just a friend Okay. We wanted to see if we canna have a chat with you. What it means about Amy?

Everybody?

No?

Why is that? It's my life not yours? It's her life as well. Yeah, well we'll not telling him.

Really, what have you got to hide?

Are you trying to hide something? Are you hoping that it gets resolved or are you happy with the way it is? We're not talking you're fucking death. No, I'm not deaf. Well then I said, I don't want to talk to here. I like it and I don't want to talk here. Well, it was her life as well, David, what if you all got to do with you? Well, I'd like to find the truth in the interests of her family. Sorry, David. Well, it's not as easy as that, is it? Eight years? What does it matter? What does

What does it matter? Come on, you don't want to talk about it at all. That's pretty pathetic, isn't it.

I attended the court session with David Simmons, where I learned the older lady with him is named Debbie, who used to work as an aboriginal liaison at the Attorney General's Department. Simmons mother, Evelyn, is Aboriginal. Despite arriving there before anyone else, his matter is one of the last to be heard before lunch. During the proceedings, he pleads not guilty to assault a public officer and obstructing public officers, but guilty to breach a bail undertaking and disorderly behavior

That's good, he.

Says, in relation to the case being adjourned for three months. While out, he says to Debbie, referring to jail by that he means he'll be a while out of prison now, as his case is adjourned until October. He now makes mention of the camera crew waiting for him outside court.

Just got to deal with the fuck wits at the front door.

Remember he's already served nine months in jail for assaulting Larry Blamford, who was still working for Wa Police at the time. Then he looks at me and says early knockoff and grins. I reply that I still have a lot to do. When Simmons exits at court, he's ready for Liam David, as is Debbie.

How'd you go? She's us. Could you talk to us just a little bit please about Amy? No, no, no, no, no, don't provoke David. Don't I'm not provoking. You are face. I'm not in his face, David. Can you tell us where the gun was when you found Amy?

Demie grabs his arm and pulls him away.

Can you tell us what the position of the gun was Could you excuse us?

At this point, Liam is only walking beside Debbie and David is on her other side.

Can you tell us how you got out of that bedroom? David? Why won't you talk to us about it? David? Do you think any of your friends will use that million dollar reward? Do you think they have other information? Are you his mother?

Yep?

She isn't, though, as mentioned, David's real mum is called Evelyn.

Would you like this soft or when you're out of his face? I'm not in his face. I'm just asking questions very respectfully.

Again, this is true. Liam is still walking beside Debbie and David is on her other side.

Talk to stop, well, David, won't you just you have no desire to work this out at all.

You have nothing to get better to do.

Than find the truth if you wouldn't be if the police did their job properly? Excuse us us? Why do you say that? Why do you say that? David?

Debbie makes a flicking motion like she's throwing out some rubbish.

David, Why God, do you think you think the police will let you down? Do you well? Is that what you think?

David just stands there with his hands on his hips, eyes straight ahead. He's not looking at Liam, He's not looking at anything at all. He looks as though he's contemplating something. Then he turns, opens the passenger door and gets him.

Surely you want to get to the bottom of this.

Debbie is still there next to him, closing his door. She looks relieved and then waves her hand as if to dismiss Liam.

Well, surely you do too, for his sake, don't you, David. Wouldn't you think it's worthwhile to work us out. Next episode, we hear from Amy's former boss, who saw Amy the night before she died.

It was just absolute shock to be told that she'd committed suicide. I mean, no one talks about their plans for the rest of the week and the next day to then go and do that.

And what Amy's daughters told the coroner at the inquest.

So he waited in the car for a month and she never came back out of the house. So, Liser your c.

So deretion.

We both know the nasty un Jill mek.

Hunt, if you knew Amy and have information, any information about her death, we'd love to hear from you. Just email us at the truth about Amy at seven dot com dot a U that's s E V e N The Truth about Amy at seven dot com dot au, or visit our website sevenews dot com dot au forward slash the Truth about Amy. You can also send us an anonymous tip at www dot the Truth about Amy