In this episode Caroline and Liz have the latest on Lucy Letby’s defence case after her barrister Mark McDonald hand delivered the evidence which he says proves her convictions are unsafe, to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. So we sent Liz to have a chat with him. Also we’d love to know a bit more about you, and the kind of content you like - so we can bring you more of it. It’s a super-short survey but it would be so valuable to us if you could find 2 minutes to fill it in. Here’s the link...
Apr 03, 2025•25 min•Season 3Ep. 30
In this update Caroline and Liz have the final day of the inquiry. Lady Justice Thirlwall rejected the application made yesterday to pause the inquiry and said she hoped her final report would be ready by November. Follow us on instagram @thetrialpod Email us thetrial@dailymail.com Whatsapp us +447796657512 (start your message with ‘Trial’) Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popu...
Mar 19, 2025•8 min•Season 3Ep. 29
We are delighted to announce the launch of The Crime Desk, a brand-new podcast network which will feature some incredible new crime series we think you'll absolutely love. To kick it off, we're going back to where it all started - with The Trial+. Every week members of The Crime Desk will get exclusive access to brand new bonus episodes of The Trial. We will cover more cases, answer your questions, and publish mini-series about some really fascinating events. To launch we've got a brand new mini...
Mar 19, 2025•1 min
In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss the closing statements of the families of the babies and the senior executives of the Countess of Chester Hospital. We’ve got details of the executives’ application to pause the inquiry amid claims that ‘new’ evidence could render Lucy Letby’s convictions unsafe. And the response of the families, who argue it is simply a cynical ploy by a manipulative serial killer to control the narrative and an attempt by senior managers to avoid criticism. We also brin...
Mar 18, 2025•32 min•Season 3Ep. 28
In this episode of the Trial Update, Caroline and Liz have the assurance the Heath Secretary Wes Streeting has given to the inquiry that what happened at the Countess of Chester Hospital should never happen anywhere else. The inquiry was also told that the Department for Health were “deeply troubled” by the way the doctors were treated by senior managers. And the hospital has now accepted for the first time that Lucy Letby should have been suspended in October 2015, before she attacked seven mor...
Mar 17, 2025•11 min•Season 3Ep. 27
In this emergency episode Caroline and Liz have the breaking news that detectives are now investigating certain members of staff who worked at the hospital at the time Lucy Letby was killing and harming babies. Cheshire Police have confirmed their investigation into Corporate Manslaughter, which focused on the hospital, has now been upgraded to Gross Negligence Manslaughter. That means they are now investigating individual members of staff to see whether what they did – or didn’t do - amounted t...
Mar 13, 2025•21 min•Season 3Ep. 26
In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss this week’s press conference by Lucy Letby’s defence team. They go over the findings of the expert panel, who now say she isn't guilty of any murders, and compare it to the evidence scrutinised at her two trials. They also speak to Lord Ken Macdonald KC, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, who gives his take on the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Lucy Letby’s chances of a new appeal. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/...
Feb 07, 2025•49 min•Season 3Ep. 25
Caroline and Liz run through the evidence of the final week of witnesses, including that of Jane Tomkinson, the current chief executive of the Countess of Chester Hospital. She tells the inquiry that things have significantly changed in the nine years since Lucy Letby murdered babies on the neo-natal unit and that senior managers are more open and better at listening to staff than before. We also hear from an expert statistician and Cambridge academic Sir Professor David Spiegelhalter, who expla...
Jan 17, 2025•42 min•Season 3Ep. 23
Caroline and Liz are back with the first week of evidence from the Inquiry of the New Year. They explain the testimony of MP Jeremy Hunt, who was Health Secretary, when Lucy Letby murdered and harmed babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, in 2015 and 2016. He apologised to the families and said he took ultimate responsibility for a failure to implement recommendations from previous NHS inquiries, which may have helped catch Lucy Letby sooner. He talks about how it took 20 years to install i...
Jan 10, 2025•37 min•Season 3Ep. 23
In this final episode before The Inquiry takes a break for Christmas, Caroline and Liz explain the evidence of Nicholas Rheinberg, the Senior Coroner for Cheshire. He said he was ‘horribly disappointed’ at being kept in the dark about the consultants’ concerns about Lucy Letby and horrified that the paediatricians allowed him to carry out an inquest into the death of Baby A without telling him the real reason for how they believed the baby boy died. We also hear from Sir Rob Behrens, the former ...
Dec 13, 2024•25 min•Season 3Ep. 22
In this week’s episode, Caroline and Liz bring the evidence of Sir Duncan Nichol, the hospital’s board chairman. He was also the head of the NHS when nurse Beverley Allitt murdered children at a hospital in Grantham. He tells the inquiry it was a ‘serious failure’ by the Countess of Chester Hospital not to tell the families of the babies harmed what was going on and he apologised for not keeping their children safe. We also hear how the coroner was also kept in the dark about the spike in deaths...
Dec 06, 2024•25 min•Season 3Ep. 21
Caroline and Liz have another update from the Thirlwall Inquiry where the Medical Director Ian Harvey was accused of “fobbing off” the mother of one of the babies who was killed by Lucy Letby. He also denied withholding evidence from the coroner. But he admitted not commissioning a forensic review of the deaths which may have uncovered a crime sooner was a missed opportunity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more info...
Dec 02, 2024•12 min•Season 3Ep. 22
In today’s episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence for the first time from the two most senior managers at the Countess of Chester Hospital. Ian Harvey and Tony Chambers have never spoken before but they appeared before Lady Justice Thirlwall. They apologised to the families of the babies who were killed and harmed by Lucy Letby for not communicating with the parents properly and they were challenged on why they were slow to act and slow to accept what the consultants were telling them. Learn...
Nov 28, 2024•34 min•Season 3Ep. 19
In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from some of the senior managers from the Countess of Chester Hospital. It's the first time we've heard from them, and all accepted mistakes had been made in the way the concerns about Lucy Letby had been dealt with. But Tony Chambers, the Chief Executive, was reluctant to accept any personal failings, and Alison Kelly, the Director of Nursing, blamed others for the fact she was slow to respond to an email about a spike in baby deaths and a link...
Nov 27, 2024•38 min•Season 3Ep. 18
A big week at the Thirlwall Inquiry as the managers get their chance to speak and to answer the criticisms that they were too slow to act to stop Lucy Letby. First up is Alison Kelly, The Director of Nursing. We’ll be bringing you extra episodes all week this week to reflect what’s happening here in Liverpool. Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull Editor: Chelsey Moore Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular. Lear...
Nov 25, 2024•6 min•Season 3Ep. 18
In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence of former Detective Chief Superintendent Nigel Wenham, the police officer who was instrumental in launching the police investigation into Lucy Letby’s crimes. They also hear from one of the key doctors in the case - Dr Stephen Brearey - the lead consultant on the neo-natal unit. He apologised to the families of the babies murdered and harmed by Lucy Letby, saying he tried to do his best to protect their children but admitted his best was not goo...
Nov 22, 2024•35 min•Season 3Ep. 16
In this bonus update the Head of the Neo-Natal Unit Dr Stephen Brearey told parents he was sorry his actions had not been enough to stop their children being harmed and killed. He also accused Lucy Letby of harming babies BEFORE she killed Baby A in June 2015. And he admitted he and others missed opportunities which could have stopped her. Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull Editor: Chelsey Moore Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini A Daily Mail produ...
Nov 19, 2024•6 min•Season 3Ep. 15
In the first episode of The Trial Update Caroline and Liz have a snapshot of the evidence of Dr Ravi Jayaram as he appeared before the Thirlwall inquiry. He said sorry, and said he wishes now he'd been stronger and braver and spoken up sooner about Lucy Letby. He also said senior managers would not take the consultants' concerns seriously and he now reflected it had been like being in an abusive relationship. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted on Acast. S...
Nov 15, 2024•7 min•Season 3Ep. 16
In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from Dr Ravi Jayaram. He accepted that he should have done more sooner to stop Lucy Letby from harming babies. He said he should have been braver and more courageous in speaking up, but he said his concerns initially seemed "outlandish". He also told the Thirlwall Inquiry that after Lucy Letby was eventually moved off the ward she told him she'd be back "whether he liked it or not." And he said the recommendations from the inquiry into Beverley ...
Nov 15, 2024•32 min•Season 3Ep. 13
In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss the evidence of the union rep who became close friends with Lucy Letby. Hayley Griffiths exchanged jokey and inappropriate texts with her about ‘tips’ on how to get away with murder and told her they would be ‘friends forever.’ They also hear evidence about Lucy Letby’s employment grievance and how rumours were flying around the hospital that a consultant made a pass at her and that she was the victim of a witch hunt. And they bring you a statement from h...
Nov 08, 2024•35 min•Season 3Ep. 12
The Thirlwall Inquiry is having a week off so it's a good time for Caroline and Liz to chat to lawyer and expert Elkan Ambrahamson about what difference, if any, public inquires really make in changing things for the future. They also have more details about Lucy Letby's latest appeal which was thrown out last week by three judges - signalling the end of the road for her, unless her lawyer can find new evidence to put before the Criminal Cases Review Commission. Welcome to Episode 11: Will it ma...
Nov 01, 2024•34 min•Season 3Ep. 11
In this episode we hear from the nursing manager who got ‘too close’ to Lucy Letby, sending her chummy messages telling her to ‘hang on in there, girl,’ after police were called in. Karen Rees said she felt ‘bullied’ by a consultant when he called her at home to demand Lucy Letby was removed from the ward, after she murdered two triplet brothers in quick succession. He claimed to have a ‘drawer of doom’ about Lucy Letby but senior nurses believed she was being made a scapegoat for poor medical c...
Oct 25, 2024•37 min•Season 3Ep. 10
Caroline and Liz are back with the latest from The Thirlwall Inquiry which is continuing to investigate how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder at the Countess of Chester Hospital. In this episode we learn more about Letby’s character and behaviour from her fellow nurses working closely with her on the neonatal unit. We are told she initially failed her final year placement as her mentor felt she lacked the requisite professionalism and empathy for a children’s nursing role. We then hear from t...
Oct 18, 2024•31 min•Season 3Ep. 9
Caroline and Liz are back with the latest from The Thirlwall Inquiry which is continuing to investigate how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder at the Countess of Chester Hospital. In this episode we hear from Doctor U, the married doctor who prosecutors at Lucy Letby's trial described as her boyfriend and who she denied having an affair with. He tells the inquiry he didn’t suspect her of causing harm and actively encouraged her to gain more work and valuable experiences at another hospital - e...
Oct 14, 2024•37 min•Season 3Ep. 8
In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from some of the doctors who worked on the ward with Lucy Letby. They all told the inquiry the numbers of babies collapsing and dying caused staff to think the unthinkable - that a member of staff was harming babies. Once they did raise concerns with managers they were wrongly told a review had cleared Lucy Letby and they were ordered to write her a letter of apology. We also heard this week that that senior nurses told the consultants they were...
Oct 04, 2024•32 min•Season 3Ep. 7
Caroline and Liz are back with the latest from The Thirlwall Inquiry which is continuing to investigate how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder at the Countess of Chester Hospital. In this episode we hear the testimony from 8 parents who had babies on the neonatal unit. The same themes recur again and again. We hear how the families’ search for answers fell upon deaf ears. Many describe their regret at putting their trust in the hospital and its staff. They detail the hospital’s failure to disc...
Sep 27, 2024•33 min•Season 3Ep. 6
Join Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull as they cover the latest evidence from the Thirlwall Inquiry, which is examining how Lucy Letby was able to commit murder whilst working at the Countess of Chester Hospital. In this episode we recount the experiences of the parents of five babies who were killed or harmed by the neonatal nurse through their first-hand testimony. We hear how they came to question her actions and behaviour, and learn more about how and when, they say the hospital fell short in s...
Sep 20, 2024•33 min•Season 3Ep. 5
In this episode we hear evidence from two mothers whose babies were murdered by Lucy Letby on the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital. They detail a lack of disclosure and poor communication from the hospital. They confirm the consequences of the hospital managers’ delay in contacting the police and the lack of accountability felt at the time and ever since. Their distressing and emotive testimony lays bare how responsible many of the parents feel the Countess was in allowing Letby...
Sep 18, 2024•24 min•Season 3Ep. 4
We are now at the end of the first week of the Thirlwall Inquiry set up to establish how Lucy Letby was able to get away with murdering babies on an NHS hospital ward for so long. Already, damaging testimony has been delivered about how multiple attempts to raise the alarm went unheeded, and delays in calling in the police cost babies' lives. Why were managers slow to act? What action could or should the hospital have taken? And what urgently needs to change within our healthcare system to stop ...
Sep 13, 2024•41 min•Season 3Ep. 3
Following the trial and conviction of neonatal nurse Lucy Letby, The Thirlwall Inquiry has been set up to examine the events at the Countess of Chester Hospital that surrounded the murder and attempted murder of multiple babies. It began today, Tuesday 10th September 2024, at Liverpool Town Hall. In this episode Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull discuss the very first day of the hearing as the opening statements by chair, Lady Justice Thirlwall and counsel to the Inquiry, Rachel Langdale KC, are de...
Sep 11, 2024•22 min•Season 3Ep. 2
