Hi everyone. I'm Caroline. Welcome back to the Translation podcast. On today's episode, we're joined by Ray Sunshine, a passionate advocate, artist, educator and cancer survivor whose life embodies resilience, creativity and transformation. After a 2021 Stage 4 Hodgkin's lymphoma diagnosis, Ray's relationship with healing and purpose deepened. They channel that experience in advocacy, education and art celebrates identity and survival.
I am who I am today because of the experiences that that I've had, and cancer is one of them, and going through my queer journey is one of them. Do I think I would be where I'm at today if it didn't happen the way that I did? No. Like if all those other things didn't happen, do I hate them? Absolutely. Am I glad that I am who I am today?
Also yes. In this conversation, we explore how illness, creativity, and queerness converge, art becomes a vessel for healing, and how transformation reshapes what it means to lead, teach, and love. Oh my God. Hi, Athena, welcome back. Thank you for being here. It's good to be here. Yes. And joining us, it's Kevin. Hi, Kevin. Welcome back. Welcome back to the Trans Narrative podcast. I was a little being on here. Yes, thank you for being here. And Ray Sunshine.
Hi Ray, welcome to the trans narrative. Hi, thanks for having me. Yes, it's so good to have you. It's good. It's good to be here in the in the in the show with everyone. Athena, thank you for being here. Kevin, thank you so much for being here. And Ray, thank you so much for taking time to be with us today here on the Trans Narrative Podcast. Well, welcome, Ray. Thanks for coming on here. It's so nice to finally talk
with you. I know we've set this up a while ago and now we're we're finally doing it. So our listeners are going to have a real treat. So First off, Ray, why don't you tell us like, your upbringing? Like what? What was early life for Little Ray Sunshine? I grew up in a household where I was the eldest daughter at the time. I identified as a daughter and I took care of my younger brother
and sister and my parents. Unfortunately, very racist and very homophobic, so I did not understand that being queer or trans was a possibility until later in life. A lot of my life experiences were really raised around hetero normativity and that was what I was brought up with and what I
was raised with. And even though in high school I had queer feelings, I suppressed them and I, I didn't want to explore those because I didn't know what that could mean for me if I didn't marry, you know, a white Jewish man with a house with a white picket fence and 2.5 children and a golden retriever and have that like, specific lifestyle that I was told that I needed to live up to. So we finally decided not to have a golden retriever.
What was that like for your? Parents, I will say that like, even though I came out, I don't know, I don't know how old I was at that point when I actually decided to come out, but I came out after I was already in a relationship with a CIS man. And we did get married and have a child and have the house with
the white picket fence. We didn't have a golden retriever, but we did have a cat and I did and I did live up to this experience that sort of my parents wanted were like I was meeting a level of success in my job that they were happy and I was, you know, living up to their quote UN quote expectations because I did marry a white Jewish man and have the white picket fence house with the we didn't have 2.5 kids. We had one, but I think they would have liked 2.5 kids, to be
honest. But we had the 1 and you know, I was, I was meeting most of their goals for a good chunk of the life until, until really, I got cancer. And then things went went the other way. Well, it was kind of a defining moment where you got to like, pick up on your own story and tune into what maybe you'd been missing out on. I mean, were there particular books or people or moments that help shape that? I books no, I'm I'm a ROM com reader so like I don't it's a
real thing. I I don't want to go anywhere near it. I only love reading ROM coms, specifically queer ROM coms and I'll do a shout out. It's not queer, but queer adjacent. Nat Cuddington is a great artist. She's a friend of mine so I'll shout her out on this podcast. Everybody should read her new book. It's about Christmas and Santa but I I only read those kinds of books so that wasn't really specifically helpful.
But music really helped me during my cancer treatments, specifically Taylor Swift. I, I know that sounds cheesy, but like I've been a fan since I was 13 years old and during, I, I got diagnosed with stage 4 Hodgkin's lymphoma during the middle of COVID. And so I wasn't allowed to like bring a bunch of people into the hospital with me. I wasn't allowed to have a bunch of people at my house that we
were masking. Like I couldn't have people around and like surround you like maybe other people who get cancer have that experience. And so music was really my outlet to sort of survive that, and that really helped me during that time. Well, it's music is so powerful because I know it transforms so many people in so many different ways. And what was kind of like your favorite beyond Taylor Swift, like artists at that time or like, was there other stuff that you were into?
I would say, I know this is so cliche, but like it was round TikTok was around and I know Kevin, that's how you found me was through my TikTok. Is that I, I leaned into TikTok at that time to sort of make humor where I was, for lack of a better word, dying inside. And so a lot of my Tik Toks were like making jokes about like, you know, my cancer And like the one that has I think like 2 million views or whatever it is, is like me joking about hot nurses and like being, you know,
like it's, it's funny, haha. Like I'm in the hospital, but yet there's hot nurses. This is exciting and so like a lot of those sort of songs were like, you know, helping me get through like the tick tock clips, whatever were were really helpful during that time. But also just like making tick
tocks was really helpful. Like it was a really good outlet for me to like be funny and then also like get this support that I didn't feel like I was getting internally from my close circle of people that I felt like I needed it from. But getting that external validation at the time, well, I don't suggest doing it all the time, was really helpful at the time that I was going through cancer. Well, and it can be educational too, I know like. And what was drawing you to education?
What kind of what? What was the calling? When I was a kid I wanted to be a rabbi so I've always been interested in like Jewish education specifically but I wanted to be a rabbi. And my ex-husband, we don't talk about him but he told me that I couldn't be a rabbi because I was a female. Like ha ha jokes on him I'm not a female anymore but I couldn't be a rabbi because I was a female. And so I decided to switch careers and go into something non education.
It was still a male dominated field. It was engineering. But that didn't last very long. I got to college and switched my major to Jewish studies and I ended up back in education. But I love working with kids. I love making a difference. I love being an influence on their life and helping shape who they are in the future.
And that has shifted from Joshua education to things about cancer to things about LGBTQA, plus things like whatever I feel like I can educate people on, I try to do in any capacity I haven't like I've taught a little bit about my art. I've done some art classes for, I do paper cutting. I've done a little bit of that, but not as much as I would like. It's that ones a little harder to get into. But I do try to teach in whatever capacity that I can.
Your lived experience informs you as an educator on exactly what your strengths are and maybe even where your weaknesses are. Yeah, yes. So looking back through through your early life leading to where you are now before you transition, what were any signs that you had that you were trans before you even had any language for it? I knew that I was clear when I
was younger. There's a lot of things that like I can't talk about this podcast because they're a little bit too risque, but like things that I would do with friends, like the PG things I can say out loud are like taking showers with friends that were female. Like I don't think normal females do that. Like that's just not a thing that you do and you're like with your friends.
Things like that, that I was just like, oh, that might be a sign, but I did have crushes on girls in high school and things like that. But being trans like I didn't even understand what trans meant until I was in college and my first recalling of meeting a trans person. I'm actually dating them now, which is I think funny. They transitioned 1615 ish years ago, whatever. And when they came out as trans I was actually really confused and I was like, I don't know what that means.
And it was like really it was really confusing for me because I was like, I don't understand. Like I thought you were a girl and this is now you're not a girl. And what does this mean for me and what I am attracted to? And it was very confusing for me at the time. And we lost touch, not because of them being trans, just other things. Well, the funny story is here's what happened. So they walked me, we were in college and they walked me to the dorm.
And then they tried to kiss me. And I was like, I can't, I'm straight. And then they were broken. And we sort of like went our separate ways because like, I thought, I honestly thought I was straight and sis at the time. And I was like, I can't do this. So there's no way. Like my parents won't approve. Like I can't like even though deep down I knew that something was different about me, like I, I couldn't do it. And so we went our separate ways.
And then in 2021, yeah, 2021, I had started using she they pronouns. And I very quickly realized at some point that I wanted to be they she because I wanted people to like use they more than she. And once I decided to do they she pronouns, which for me was different than she they whatever, I got really upset when people wouldn't use the day. And I was like, why are you still she hurting me? I've said my pronouns are they
she? And I would get really upset about it. And so then I was like, fine, fuck it, we're going to do they. Oh, I don't know if I can say that. I'm so sorry. OK, great. I don't know. And so then I was like, my pronouns are going to be they them. And then very quickly after that, I realized that I hated my dead name and it was so
feminine. And every time somebody used it, I cringed and said, so I think in the process of like a month, I went from like she they to they, she to they, them to switching my name legally because I was like, I can't do this. This is ridiculous because at work they're like, we can't do anything for you if your legal name is still dead name. And I was like, well, then fine,
we're going to fix that. And so I legally changed my name and then they had to change like my e-mail and my this and my that. And you know, I, I forced them into calling me Ray because I can't, I can't do this anymore. But like my so I'm, I'm polyamorous. That's another part of my lifestyle.
But I, I have a boyfriend, the person who was the first person that introduced me to like being trans. And then my partner Lux. They are also non binary gender fluid trans. And I think being with them for the last four years had helped me realize that I was trans, right. Like I was able to like, see it in them and be like, oh, that's how I feel. Like that's there's a thing for that.
There's a word for that. Like I had just been in this relationship with a CIS man for so long that like, I didn't know what I didn't know about myself. And so being with them helped me realize like, myself and like, come to terms with like who I was as a person. And like there are pictures of Baby Ray with like short, like short haircuts and whatever. And like you could look at it and be like, and I played softball, which like could be queer or trans, I don't know.
And like, you know, there are pictures of me that you're like, that's a queer. But like, I don't know. Like I really didn't realize that I was queer until later in life and trans even later. And even still when I came out my this I think is funny. When I came out as non binary, I didn't realize it was under the trans umbrella because I didn't
know anything. And one of my coworkers who is also trans made me these like trans flags things like they're like stickers or like little coloring things that they made for me. And I was like, oh, he doesn't know that I'm non binary. He thinks I'm trans. Like I didn't, I didn't know that it was under the same umbrella. Like I still like, even though identifying as non binary, like I still didn't know.
And so like there's, there's been a lot of education, a lot of like, I still don't know some terminology and the, the LGBTQIA plus plus as like there's a lot of like, I don't know all the flags, I don't know all the terminologies. There's still things that I get confused about. Like even as a queer person it's still confusing for me. There's a dictionary for you as well, The Queen's English. Yeah. If you really want to learn all
of it, it is in there. Well, there's like, there's like, there's an arrow and there's arrow laves and there's this and there's that, and there's all these different flags and there's, you know, and I'm just like, it's a lot. You know. I can't remember all of them. I think that the best way to put it is that you can call yourself queer and then attach whatever other extra labels you want to it as they feel comfortable for you.
And you, you know, don't have to fall in love with labels that other people attach to you, right? If it doesn't feel like it's fitting, you can make your own. I really felt comfortable with pan for a really long time when I came out as queer or not queer. But when I came out as pan, I used pan because I was married to a sis straight man and I thought that I was pan because I was in a relationship with this person who was a man.
Once we divorced, I very quickly realized that that relationship and all relationship with men, well sis men up until that point was very heteronormative. I'm like, I didn't actually think that I was pansexual anymore. I think that like if there was a word for like anyone without a penis, like that would be like girls, gays and the ace, but like not gay men, but like just not CIS men. If there's like a definition of like anyone but CIS men, that would be my definition, but there's not.
So I use queer. I just I I would never date assist man ever again. I I took a very long time. I think there are some other terminologies that you can use for talking about like preferences of body types, or I think I've heard the word allosexual being used for people who prefer transgender people as a target for relationships, but that to me just kind of seems like a a chaser, right? Requires a. Security. If it's a tea for tea relationship, that makes sense, right? It is.
Sensible, right? Because everybody's got that same structure of understanding that gender, you know, construct and we. Yeah, but. Relationships like exclusively like if that's what I am, that's what I am. And like both of my partners are well, masculine presenting. And if either one of them had bottom surgery, like I would still be with them, right? Like so it's not that I'm like office, like oppositional to penis, but like something about CIS men.
Like if there was a word right now for like, not CIS men, that would be. Not tuned in is kind of the. The word that I would get. From my relationships with CIS men, generally speaking, not tuned into themselves, they're kind of taught to numb themselves to their own feelings and therefore not really communicate well.
Yeah, and with my ex-husband, like when I came out as non binary, we had to have a conversation where he still said he was a straight CIS man and I was like well I'm non binary. So if you find me attractive and you were attractive to me as a person, then I am struggling with you saying that you're straight and CIS because at least straight because I'm not a woman anymore. Like I don't identify as a
woman. And so we had to have a very long conversation about like, what that meant for him if we were still married and what that looked like for him. And eventually he decided to use the word queer. And I don't know if he still identifies that way 'cause we've
been divorced for three years. But at the time it was a very, it was challenging like in, in terms of my identity to feel invalidated by my partner when my partner was like, well, I'm not, I'm, I'm straight and I'm like, well, I don't, I don't know how that makes me feel if I'm not a woman. Like, do you see me as a woman? Does that? Is that where we are? I don't know, Yeah.
Well, I mean, you wind up with kind of some obligations because of your gender at some points in your life that you don't feel like you have to, that we don't feel are necessary, right? That we can kind of like walk away from these. Parts were never. Part of you, they were just expectations, right? Yeah. So walking away from some of those past experiences towards your new future, what foundational values or experiences do you feel like you're going to stay with you
the longest? I think through all of this, I learned to live authentically and to just be OK with who I am as a person in the How do I phrase this without fucking myself over? I'm just going to say it In the space that I've worked in for a very long time of my life, in Jewish education, it is in most places. It's hard to be queer. It's hard to be Polly. It's hard to have these experiences and have it be
respected and not a problem. And I've come to the point in my life where I don't want to hide who I am as a person. I almost died from cancer and I told myself that I wasn't going to do that anymore and I wasn't going to hide myself. And I'm at a point in my life where I am authentically myself and I am publicly, authentically myself. That's if that's a problem with a job or a person or people in my life, then I have learned to unfortunately take those people
out of my life, move jobs. I moved cross country when it was a problem for my job. I moved from Maryland to Washington to be able to be out as Polly and it's hard. And like again, I'm not meeting that expectation of white picket fet house and a dog and the 2.5 children. Like I've got two partners and I live in an apartment and I've got I do have a dog, but it's a Pitbull, you know, So like I'm not meeting that expectation. She's very cute. She's very needy. Shout out to Bear.
But I just, I want to live authentically and like we only have one life and nobody's promised tomorrow. And I know that's so cliche to say, but like we're not right? Like I'm four years in, in remission. Next year I'll be able to say that I'm cancer free. I've got a whole year to wait. But I did just have my test 2 weeks ago and I'm still in remission, which is great. I'm grateful for that. But it's not always promised. So, you know, something could pop up at any time, and I want
to make sure that I'm not. In the closet, I want to make sure that I'm not hiding myself. I want to make sure that I'm inspiring others. So like I sell this art that I make Ray sunshine design on Instagram if you want to go check me out. But I sell queer art and feminist art and body positivity art. And I'm one of the only people I know that sells trans top surgery greeting cards. They have a picture of like trans chest on them and it says, I'm so glad you got that off
your chest. They're really good. You should I'll buy them for your friends having top surgery. But like, I try to make this art to like inspire others and, you know, make a difference in the world and do what I can to do that. Well, and it was kind of just thinking, I was like, what was it like to come out later in life after being an ally as well for so long?
I've had so many coming outs like it and it's so funny because I think the last coming out I still wasn't like I still have another coming out to do. Like I just, I keep it keeps changing and like it went from being an ally to like, oh, I'm I don't know if I ever use the term bisexual because I felt like bisexual was like not that it is.
I'm clearly saying this is not, but people saw it when I was in college just like clout chasing and like it was like a trendy thing to do. And so I didn't like the term bisexual. So I stuck with pansexual and I was like I like hearts not parts and it's the person not the whatever, whatever. So I came out as pansexual, but at that time I was already in a relationship with a sis man and I had like in college like gotten drunk and like made out
with girls and things like that. But like I was like, oh, that's just what everybody does when they're drunk. Like I'm not queer. Like and as I told you about my boyfriend, right, like he literally tried to kiss me and I was like, I'm straight, don't kiss me. Like I wanted to kiss them, right? Like I wanted to kiss him. And so I came out first as pansexual, and that was when I was in the relationship with my ex-husband. And then eventually I came out
as I think I said, gender queer. And so I felt originally I was like, oh, that makes sense. I feel gender queer. I didn't like gender fluid for some reason, but I felt like gender queer worked. And so I was gender queer for a little bit. And then I realized what polyamory was because I was like, oh, this is weird that like, I have a husband and we were looking to like, maybe try some stuff out. And then I had like fell for this girl and I was like, oh, I have feelings for two people at
once. That's weird. And then I was like, oh, there's some work for that. So then realized what polyamory was. And I was like, oh, that's why. And like all these like light bulbs started clicking. So like, I came out again as like polyamorous. And I think it was three years ago now. I came out on publicly on Facebook the way to come out, but I came out of Facebook as polyamorous and trans non binary and that I was in a relationship with both my ex-husband and my current partner locks.
And that caused me to go 2 years non contact with my parents because they were like absolutely not infidelity and you're a horrible partner and you're not keeping your vows and etcetera. And so we went into a contact for two years which was challenging. We're still mending that relationship. We're talking now. But like that coming out was
hard. And then me and my ex-husband got divorced, which made me feel at the time like, oh, now it seems like my Poly thing isn't real because I'm in one relationship again and whatever. And I was nervous to like future relationships publicly because like now everybody knows that like, I've divorced my ex-husband. And now recently in the last few months, I posted publicly my boyfriend. And so now people like I'm getting messages. People are like, you have a boyfriend. I'm confused.
Aren't you with Lux? And I'm like, yes, I'm with both of them. And they're like, oh, OK. And now it's like I have to like explain myself to people again, which is also not really what I want to do, but like had to come out again as Polly. And I think my parents were, I think they were happier with me being trans than me being Polly. But they still don't get my pronouns right. I think that if I were a trans man and my pronouns were he him, I think it would be easier for them.
I think that they them thing just throws them off. I don't think right now at this point where they're at, I don't think that they do it on purpose. Originally I felt it a little bit, but they used my chosen name. Now they choose my my legal name. They called me Ray. I think they just still get hooked up on the they then because in their head it's plural and it's confusing and whatever. Like I think if I transition fully to a man, which I don't think I ever will, but you never
know. There's a pipeline, you know, I, I think that they would be more comfortable with it. And like I, I pass as a man now. Like you guys can't see me because you're not there. At least the podcast people can't see me. But like I've got a full beard and a mustache and like I'm binding right now. Like I look like a fucking man, which like was a problem during pride because then I felt like white is this man and I was like, oh God, I got to be more gay.
Like, how do we get this up? I don't want to learn a white man, a white man. No, like a white man. And so yeah, it's a problem. And so like maybe as a trans mask person, this might be graphic, but like we refer to our body parts as different things. We're comfortable with different things, right? Like chest versus boobs or whatever else. Body parts. And my body parts, I'm more comfortable with masculine body parts with my partners at this
point. So like that makes me wonder like, you know, my, my boyfriend's mom is really confused about the they them pronouns and I was like, just tell her to call me he him if that's what needed. And he's like, but those aren't your pronouns. And I'm like, I really at this point don't care, right? But like, I don't think like I'm not a trans man. I don't I don't want bottom surgery. I don't identify as a man. Like being a man still makes me
cringe. But I think I want top surgery in 2027. That's my goal. So like maybe that's going to happen. I don't know. I'm still right now I have a not, it's not scheduled yet, but I have a doctor and we're scheduling A hysterectomy. So that's happening. But it's really challenging to like look like a man, be on testosterone having these gender affirming surgeries and people are like, so you're not a man. I'm confused. You look like a man, you talk like a man.
You're having men's surgery. But yes, this they them thing is confusing for us. I mean, I will say that that's very common, especially like in in terms of Judaism. I'm just curious, like what sect of Judaism did you were you brought up in? Yeah, so I will tell you 2 things. I was brought up in Reformed Judaism, which is like yay gays. We love the gays, we love the trans. I went to a Rosh Hashanah service. Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New
year. For those that don't know, it was last week and I went to a congregation celebrate it. Yeah, apples and honey. I went to a Congress synagogue. Beth or in Everett, WA, go to their services. Shout out to Beth. Or they have their services at Camp Calisman, which is a Reformed Jewish summer camp here in Washington. And they fly in this musical leader from I think Chicago, whatever.
But like multiple times during the service, they're like, oh, and this is the non binary Hebrew and this is the whatever. And so like they're totally inclusive. And like I've never felt more comfortable in my identity at a service than when I go to that service. However, my ex-husband grew up Chabad and so when we got married, we had a full Chabad wedding where like, I wore a dress that went down to my wrists and my dress went up to
my my neck. And we had split seating where the men had to sit with the men and the women had to sit with the women. And like, it was very gendered. And so I don't know how much of that plays into his identity of how he saw me as a person, although his new he's with a new person, they're married. They're also non binary. So like I know that it's not, it's not a problem like
whatever. But like I know the way that he grew up was different, which is why he told me I couldn't be a rabbi because I was a female, right? Like that's where, that's where that. Makes sense because I know because I grew up performed in Episcopalian as well and there have been many female rabbis. Yes, there are, but there are traditionally the Reform and the Conservative. Reforms not orthodox.
Yes, and in Orthodox Judaism there are people that are called like Rabbah or whatever, but they're not considered a rabbi. And so in Reform and Conservative Judaism, there are female rabbis and they're allowed. And so like, if I decided to ever go back to rabbinical school, which I don't think I would, I could be a rabbi. There are trans rabbis and non binary rabbis and they're a thing. And they've they've I want to
shout out to this thing. There's this thing called the non binary Hebrew project where they've taken Hebrew, which is a gendered language and they've made it into non binary Hebrew. So like the word for a male teacher is more and the word for a female teacher is more and to make a non binary teacher, it's Moret. So at school where I work, I go by Moret Ray because that's the non binary teacher word. And so I think that's really cool.
And so they use non binary Hebrew at the service said I went to for Rosh Hashanah and they were like, oh, and we're going to talk about like, what was the word they used? Blessings of I can't remember what it was, but blessings, Oh, identity blessings. And I was like, oh, that's so affirming. And it was just, it was just really special. So like Reformed Judaism, Shout out to being super inclusive of trans folks and making us feel
welcome. Yeah. And that's that's my my experience as well growing up partially to reform is hey. Welcome. All you know, and I think that's, that's really great. Yeah. Especially it's great that you've got, you know the the label here for the non binary in your role as a teacher, does that, you know, further help you identifying help you identifying like in public or in other private spaces as you know a way to communicate like.
Well-being in this job is interesting because when I first started working here four years ago, I told the head of the school and I said I'm trans, I'm non binary and I'm polyamorous. If that's going to be an issue, I'm not going to take a job here, right? Like I need, I need those things to be OK. I need, I need it to be a problem, not a problem. And at the school that I work at, all of the bathrooms, even for the kids are gender neutral.
They're gender neutral bathrooms, even the ones that have like urinals and whatever, they're like non binary or they're gender neutral. And we like we have kids of all that are trans and non binary that use different pronouns. And we, you know, we had a kid last year that was using he him pronouns and one name. And this year they're using their, their given name and they them pronouns. And we respect and welcome kids from all different identities.
And when I first started working at this job, I was not on testosterone and I started testosterone in February and very, and I didn't like have a conversation to be like, Hey, students, I'm starting testosterone. I'm going to have a beard and it's going to be weird, but like some of the kids are like, hey, Ray, you have a beard. And I'm like, and I just like what happened. We have this new kindergartner who like, she's got an attitude.
It's fine. But she came up to me the other day and she was like, you have a beard, you're a man. And I was like, actually, I'm not my pronouns. Are they them? And they were like, Nope, you have a beard, you're a man. Like some of the kids don't get it because they're five, you know, it's whatever. But like other people are like, yeah, I'm more at Ray and it's fine and, you know, whatever. So like I can be who I am.
And then it's also cool because like, not to pigeonhole me, but like we have a Pride Shabbat every year in Seattle and they're like, oh, Ray, you'll be the like person to let go and you'll like be your representative and like whatever, you know, And there's this thing called Cashet and Sojourn. They like do this organizational thing. They're like 2 organizations in the in like Georgia area that do like lobbying and stuff and they get like schools from all over the US to like help them.
And so they have like an organization and they're like Ray, you can help with that because you're the, you're the token queer. So I get to help out with those things, which is really cool because it feels like, you know, they're important. And I'll say that I'm not the only one. I mean, last year there were more. We had three non binary staff
people at my school last year. This year it's 2 but more children so I'm not the only one but like it does help me, you know, claim my space when I get to right. Kind of simultaneously like affirming, but also kind of pigeon holing a little bit. Yeah, your identity, it doesn't, it doesn't seem to. Bother me so far, like if it bothered me I would say something about it but so far it's it's not. Bothering me? That's good. And raise then.
Oh, oh, sorry. Ray, do you find, you know, with, with with the community, do you find the theory is a dismissive perception towards non binary people? I mean, we, we live in a, in a world where it's very binary is one or the other, you know, and I feel like that's a, you know, you brought up the term bisexual. Even I feel that that term is, it's still rooted in such a binary because it's either one or the other. It's not inclusive to the spectrum of identity.
Do you find like societal pressure or the sense that like non binary is is often dismissed as just like an in between because some people you know there's a? Lot of I feel like there's a lot of things in the queer community that are just we don't we respect each other, we don't see each other sometimes and we put down other people when we shouldn't. Right. Like I feel like lesbians are like, oh, bisexuals aren't good enough or oh, you were you, you dated a man once, but now you
don't anymore. Like that's a problem. You're not a Gold Star lesbian. Like that's a problem, right? Like why do we fucking do this to each other, right? Like we're a small enough community as it is. And I feel like non binary is the same thing. Like I said, like if I were a man, like if I were a trans man, right, like I feel like back in the day, trans people, it was either trans women or trans men. There wasn't really a non binary that people talked about. Same with like before gay
rights. There was like there you were the gay or street, right? Like there's I feel like non binary is the new. It's not the new thing, but like it's a new, it's still newish, right. Like they then pronouns are still newish. ZZZZ. I I still can't pronounce those. Those are still newish, right? Like Neo pronouns are still newish, right? Like those things years from now
will just be known, right? Like the kids in today's society in my school are like, Oh yeah, they them like they totally get it. But like the adults are the ones that have issues with it. Well, and actually I told my mom this too, because my mom also has a problem with they them because of the singular versus plural. And I pointed out to her that in Old English they did use they them as singular pronouns as well.
So what I like to say to people, right, is you, you contacted your healthcare professional situation and they're like, your doctor has retired. We're giving you a new Doctor, Doctor Smith. Doctor Smith has a appointment for you on Wednesday. When you talk to your people about your doctor, you're going to say, oh, I'm going to see them. They are going to give me a flu shot. They are my new Doctor.
They have been replaced because my other doctor, whatever you're talking about, one person, you just don't know the gender of your doctor yet because you've never met your doctor before. It is still talking about one person or like you know a server, like they got a tip, they whatever. Like you don't know because they whatever. If you're talking about someone you don't know about, you use them. Like people just do it. They just don't realize they're doing it.
Is in customer service. I I work in customer service. So yeah, all of the time. You can, you can assume that they them before you can assume that they, you know, somebody says like my son or my husband, you can just still say they and they don't take offense at it. Everybody still gets it if you use they instead of he or she. That does not really replace what what or offend people in any way if you just continue to use the general neutral pronoun as your de facto right.
Yeah, I am. I'm in a 12 step program and I, I've been in the 12 step program in and out for 12 years. And I obviously was a female before I came out as non binary trans. And so a lot of people know me by my dead name and my dead pronouns. And so I had to like have this transition where like I was like, no, call me Ray, my pronouns are they them? And so like I literally go up to the front of the room in these meetings and I'm like, hi, my name is Ray.
My pronouns are they them? And I'm an addict, you know, whatever. And I have done that now for 14 months since I've lived in Seattle and been going to this meeting. I still get dead named. I still get misgendered at these meetings because these are like 80 year old women who like struggle with the they them thing. And like even if I correct them and I'm like they them, they them like it still happens. And like I don't, I don't know how to fix it right.
Like I don't know how to correct people when like it just I've tried for a year, more than a year. My parents still do it. It's been three years, you know, I just, I don't know how. And at some point it's disheartening isn't the right word. But like, I get it to a point where like, is it worth it correcting people anymore? Right.
Like somebody called me for to schedule a doctor's appointment and I was driving in the car with my 7 year old and they were like, Oh yeah, miss, you know, whatever and like, whatever. And then I hung up the phone and my 7 year old was like, why didn't you correct him? You're not a miss. And I was like, damn it, I. I. Should have done that. It's easier to roll with it,
right? Honestly, at this point, I mean, in the climate that we're in, you know, whatever pronouns somebody uses towards me for my own safety, I just, you know, that's if that's how they see me, that's how they see me. It's safer to, you know, if they use he, then it's like, I will, you know, especially in this climate that we're in, if I correct them, you know, I'm more likely to cause an issue.
Whereas if I just, you know, let him let them see me how they see me, I don't care, you know, And that, you know, that's, that's just, you know, begs the question for me though, because I've never felt even in the, in the, I don't like labels, you know, and I feel like I just in my 20s, I, I could have easily be considered, you know, non binary because I just don't like, I don't like these labels and I feel they're very restrictive. And I feel still for me
personally, even non binary. Is restrictive because it is. I don't know, it's the whole thing for me. So because I just did more, I wish I could just say my gender is Caroline because trans woman doesn't seem to fit. Trans non binary woman doesn't fit none. I just in Caroline, you know, and you know, you try to explain that to people out there in the world. They're like what? And like, yeah. It's also in certain places you have to pick a gender, right?
Like this summer I did a lot of traveling and like, you have to go to the bathroom, right? And I, I look the way that I look with a full beard and a mustache and short hair and like a binder. Like I look like a dude. So like I now have to use the men's restroom, which like is a weird concept of like taking my kid into the female restroom and him being like mommy, I'm a boy. And now like taking him into the men's restroom and like feeling like I belong there.
That's a whole other subject going into a men's restroom. First of all, they're disgusting. But secondly, like I like, I feel like I'm like a secret spy, like a secret agent. Like I don't feel like I belong there, but I also feel like I don't belong in the women's restroom, but like I have to choose. And like, I went to Vegas this summer and like, that's it's, it's blueish, but like, it's still a little red. And like, I felt like, am I going to get like jumped?
Like what's going to happen, right? Like, am I going to go into this place and somebody's going to like, look at me, right? Like I went to the, I went to the bathroom this week and my kid needed to use the bathroom. And so I took him in and I was like standing by the sink and a gentleman walked in and he like looked at me and he was like, why are you standing in the men's restroom? And I was just like awkward and I was like waiting for my kid to
go to the bathroom. But like restrooms are so weird when there's no like non binary family restroom, right? Like not all airports have that. Not all restaurants or hotels or whatever have that. And like you've got to pick 1. And I would make women uncomfortable if I walked into the women's restroom right now because I look like a fucking dude. But I mean, you've always got like the smaller venues that just have the single bathroom that's always unisex. So like there's no pressure.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know why we can't just design bathroom stalls that like are just like top to bottom instead of having like in. Seattle. In Seattle at our airport, we have a whole bathroom that's just called bathroom and it's like 20 stalls and they're all floor to ceiling. It's for anywhere. See, that makes some more sense. I don't understand. It's well, we know who created those bathroom designs of the past SIS men. And you know why they leave
extra space and tax in between. Anyway, I want to get to that. So you have been an educator for about 10 years, is that right? About a decade. Since 2012, so a little bit longer than that. OK, so about 13 years, you know, I was thinking 13 years, I'm like, wow, that's like 1997, wow, you know, But then I'm like, Nope, that's 2012. So, so so tell me what that was like starting out in 2012. So 2013 was when the gender dysphoria was no longer
considered a mental illness. And so going from 2012 thirteen to, you know, 2015, some acceptance was happening and now we're here in 2025. Tell me what that what that what your experience has been like as an educator going from so many different the versions of our of our country and and the acceptance or lock thereof recently. How's how's that been for you? Can I tell you guys something without you judging me? Oh yeah, totally.
Yeah, when I first went to college, like I said, my parents raised me. I was a Republican at the time, so please do not judge me. When Obama was elected the first time, I was disappointed because I was a Republican at the time
and I was like, this is stupid. I very quickly realized that that was dumb of me. So like that was like a transition point from like being a Republican my freshman year in college to like joining like and it was weird cuz like I was in LGBTQIA clubs in high school, but for some reason I was a Republican and I was like Republican money cuz that's all people that a Republican care about. But I didn't want Obama to be elected because I was a
Republican at the time. And so that transition happened, but like, it really wasn't even as an educator, Like it wasn't until it wasn't until I got cancer, until like, my gender really started getting messed with because I lost all my hair when I lost all my hair. And I didn't have this like, long blonde hair that I'd always had. Like it allowed my gender to like figure its way out and like be like, oh, I kind of like having short hair. I don't think I want to grow it back out.
What does that mean for me? I'm feeling myself in these masculine clothes with my hair short and whatever, like am IA lesbian. Is that what this is? I don't I don't know. And like figuring that out, like really only came in 2021 with the cancer. So like, I don't know, like maybe it would have happened at some point, but I think the cancer really like progress, the gender questioning, the queer stuff. Like I, I knew that I was queer, right.
Like and when I I think my first queer, well, no, I went to I went to gay pride when I was in Los Angeles and that must have been when I was in college. So like I was going to gay prides. I just thought I was straight, which totally doesn't make sense, but like I was like, I'm just a straight ally that makes up with girls when I'm drunk. Like everybody, like everybody always does. And. Like I had a girlfriend for like 2 days when I was in college. It was very short.
She broke up with me because she thought I wanted to have sex with her and that was all I wanted and so she broke up with me after 2 days. But I did have a girlfriend very short time in college and then and then I went back to straight men. You know, my I dated a person of color in, in college, a black man and I told my mom about it and she literally slapped me across the face. So I knew that like that wasn't allowed.
Women weren't allowed. I again, white man picket fence, golden retriever, 2.5 dogs or 2.5 kids. Like it just wasn't going to happen. Problems are better than. Kids. Sorry, I don't know it's a it's a toss above which is easier to take care of themselves. I think kids are in the beginning are a little harder, but they. In the end themselves, yeah, they have a lot of economy. Dogs, you've got to clean up after them forever.
But so I don't know, like I think that like I remember the second time Obama was elected and I was excited at that point. I remember when no, no hate like the the like facial, were they like stickers or like painting where it was like no, whatever. And I got one of those and I was really excited about it. But I think I was still straight or quote UN quote straight at
the time. I didn't think that I was queer, but clearly there were relationships in college and high school and whatever that like I wanted to have that I just was too scared to do. Luckily, now, 14 years later, I was able to rekindle one of those and make that work. But at the time I was, I was scared and I, I couldn't do it. And I wasn't until 2020 until I was even possible to do anything with a woman. And then then it sort of took
off at that point. So as far as like your experience, like teaching kids are in the classroom, like finding ways to to bridge the gap or and create like empathetic moments, like has that changed or has the work pretty much been the same since, since you started? I think I'm more aware of gender in terms of like the way that things are phrased. Like there's this prayer called Pine Matov, which is about like it's, it literally says bringing
brothers and sisters together. And there's a version of it that I don't, I don't think I have, but there's a version of it that they sang at the Russia China service where it's basically saying bringing everyone together or something. But like different wording where it's like not brothers and sisters, it's not gendered, it's for everyone. Or using the non binary Hebrew for the morning prayers or, you know, who has made me in God's image rather than who is, you
know, whatever. Like using specific blessing? Sorry, I know that's a song. Was it sung in the in the song format or was it just said in like? It was song in the song format. Yeah, it. Was I don't know. I'm going to check real quick if I have a picture of it. I took pictures of that service. I know, like I can hear it in my head too.
It's like, well. There's the regular like he name, but it was a different version that another artist had musical artist had done and they changed the wording. I don't think I have it. I think I might have deleted it, but it was done. It was a different, it was a different version and they changed some of the wording and it was a different tune and it was really beautiful and it was like gender affirming and it wasn't brothers and sisters.
It was like who brings us all to I think the word was Kulanu, which is like all incumbent sing, but it was like instead of Kulano Gamya, I think whatever instead of because I came his brothers, but I don't remember the exact Hebrew. I'm not a professional Hebrew speaker. That's one of my things that I need to work on. I have a 1100 days and Duolingo and I'm still not I'm nowhere.
Hebrews. Hard. I took like 4 years of it and I did like Wilpon in Israel and like I did like a whole thing to like try to speak it and like I lived in Israel for months and I still cannot speak it for the death of me. But I think it was Kulano. But they changed the words to make it inclusive, and I think I just try to do things like that to make things inclusive. Well, and I was wondering about your your paper cut art. Can you tell us more about that and how it got how you got
started? In that, yeah, it actually started Jewishly, which like I think is funny. There's a Jewish paper cut artist who does it with comics. He does comics on the back of the instead of like paper cutter or watercolor. And he lives in LA He's actually the brother of Mayim Bialik, which I think is cool. Yeah. So he does Jewish paper cut art. His name is Isaac Isaac Brenegard Bielek. He's married to a rabbi. And I was interning at the synagogue that his wife was the rabbi at.
And so I got to know his paper cut art and sort of learned what it was. And I asked him about it. He was like, yeah, you should get into it. And so I started doing it by hand. And so I got these like razor blades and I was like cutting things by hand. And I went to Israel and I was like making paper cuts in Israel. And, and I sold like 2 pieces of art in Israel to these people that were friends of mine. And I thought it was so cool that I could do it. It wasn't perfect.
It wasn't perfect, but like it was by hand. And then that was in 2000 and like 12, I think 2013. And then in 2017, I got this thing called a cricket, which is like a machine that put in your own designs in it and it'll cut it for you. So then I learned how to like take my designs that I wanted and put them into my machine and it would cut my designs for me with the machine. And so I could like mass produce these things. And so I did 1 show in Oklahoma because I lived in Oklahoma for
three years. And then when I moved to Maryland, I did 1 show in Maryland. No, I didn't do a show in Maryland. I did 1 show in Washington. When I I there was a coming out, there was a film. There's a queer film. I could tell you what it is because I have it on Instagram. Give me a second. I think it is called Coming Out, but maybe I'm wrong. The film was called Coming Aging
Out, an LGBTQ plus film. I don't remember what the film was about, but they invited these artists, queer artists to like sell their art at this film. And that was the first that I really got like a glimpse into selling my art full time, not full time, but like more prevalently. And I had a booth and I made like 500 bucks that night. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I could do this. This is the thing.
And so I like invested in some tables and I invested in a tent and I invested in this these grid walls. And then I was like, I'm going to do pride next year. And so then I booked a pride and I booked a second pride and that was three years ago. And now I did like 8 prides this summer. I do like every weekend but the work is like I have like femmes can be Dems and I have like your body is perfect with like different body shapes.
And I have like a chest one which has like a bunch of different boobs in the trans chest and it says you are perfect. I have ones that say everybody belongs here, which has pictures of like somebody in a hijab and somebody in a wheelchair and somebody with a whatever, right? Like it's it's inclusive and it's body inclusive. And I have people of color. I have ones that are like, oh, dad bods that are like guys with like ABS. And then I also have bear bods, right?
I have vulva art, I have penis art. I have chest art. I have some Frida because everybody loves Frida. I've got different quotes. I've got like homophobia is extinct with like dinosaurs, which is really cute. I'm really excited that I have one one of my pieces of art, it says protect trans kids and Emily Randall, who is AUS congresswoman here in Washington, bought it for her office. So it is up in her office, which I think is super cool.
I'm really trying to get into some like OBGYN offices because I have a lot of like vulva art. If you check out my art, one of my favorite pieces is a strawberry, but I have a lot of large. Strawberries. Yeah, I have a really cool strawberry vulva. It's one of my favorites. And I think that like, if I can get those and some like OBGYN offices, that would be really cool. But like, I just, I feel like it's, it's a way that I can express my like queer feminist
body positive self. And it's a, it's a lot of rainbow. I also do other flags too, like I've done like ace flags and BI flags and pan flags and trans flags and whatever. So there's like a variety of flags, but the majority of it is rainbow because I want to be as inclusive as possible. So, but I try to and I make greeting cards, you know, I have like let's scissor with like a picture of scissors, which I think is really cute. I've got the you're the breasts with some boobs, which is really
cute. I've got dog butts, you know, You think. That's right, it sounds like you should meet the founder or the one that created the trains flag. That would be cool. Maybe that would be cool. Maybe you could be a coast on the podcast that they ever came on anyway, So that is I really
love that. So tell me, you know, how does art and advocacy for you come together in the sense that like, how do you, I mean, obviously what you're doing is, is, is inspirational and and you know, sharing this art is beautiful. How do they intercept on a deeper level? For you, I'm finding it. I'm trying to find places where I can sell my art that feels safe for me and where I can feel like I can make a difference and do that. I have a Christmas show that's coming up.
It's my second time trying it. The first time was a like complete failure because people were not interested in buying queer focus, feminine focus things at Christmas fair. So I'm going to try it again. We're going to see if it goes well or not. If not, I'm not going to do those anymore. But I think like I'm really pushing like at at Pride festivals to like be able to make a difference, get my word out, get this advocacy of like
everybody needs a safe space. And I do that through art and being able to have these powerful, sometimes challenging pieces on their walls, right? Like I have one that's a it's a hanger with like flowers on it. And it says this is not healthcare. I'm like that. That's a gut punch. It's. Powerful. Yeah, right there. Powerful, right? But like that is advocacy that is fighting for, you know, the the right to get an abortion if somebody needs it or wants it, right.
Like we have Ruth Bader Ginsburg, right? Like I have like a lot of, I wouldn't say they're political, but they're political, right? Like, you know, they're political things. They're not, they're not politics, but they're political things. And it's my way of being political without, you know, wearing, wearing a hat or going door to door.
Yeah. So I mean, you really have to kind of creatively find a way to express yourself so as not to brand yourself as being one particular thing or to subscribe to 1 overarching narrative that might alienate you from a customer base at the same time, like holding your your elements of what you want to project to be true, right? Which is why the Christmas fair is so hard, right? Like I don't want to be there selling Jesus stuff, right?
Especially as a Jew. But I do have, I have 6 different varieties of crosses because some of them are regular, some of them are rainbow. But I do have some pastors and stuff that come in that are like, can I get a rainbow cross? And I'm like, yes, Rainbow Cross will make it happen. It's the. Rainbow Jewish stars, right? Like, we'll make it happen, but like, am I going to go out there and do like Santa and reindeer? And no, that's not what I want to do.
I want to do queer feminist body positivity, right? Like advocating for what I believe in. And that is not Christmas. So, you know, I need to find the places that that is the right space to do that at. I tried to sell my stuff on Etsy, but they didn't like the vulva and the the boob. So they've shut me down twice. So I only sell on Instagram. Sorry, friends, but you can find me on Instagram. I'm sorry. Yeah, and Etsy takes a lot of money out of it, so it's
whatever. But you know, I'm trying to do what I can to make a difference. Absolutely. So Ray, you know, 2021 for me was a very interesting year. I had gotten to meet the community and I had come to understand my gender identity a little better. And I, I, I like to think back to, you know, prior to that year and how isolated or, you know, not accustomed to, to terminology or the way of our community.
And you've expressed that, you know, 2021 for you was a year that was what I can imagine very scary at the time. Would you mind taking us back to, you know, those moments in 2021 when you had come to understand, you know, what was happening and how that affected you personally? And, and, you know, it takes back to that moment, if you mind if that's OK. I don't know if that's
something. Take us back to that moment, you know, when you found out you're diagnosis and and what you had dealt with at that time, what was going through your mind. So my diagnosis came in February of 2021. I was on the phone with a friend and I turned my chest a little bit when I was talking and a baseball sized lump popped out of my clavicle and I was like what is this? And at first I thought it was like a doctor pimple popper or something. I was like, what, like we need
to go get this handled. But within a week or two I found out that it was stage 4 Hodgkin's lymphoma and the non queer in me. Well, I think I, I was queer at that time, but like, I was like, I'm dyeing my hair rainbow. I know it's going to fall out. We're we're doing it. I've always wanted to dye my hair rainbow. So I dyed my hair rainbow. There's proof of it on tech talk and I had rainbow hair for a week. Like I literally paid whatever it was to have them color my
hair for for for a week. And then a week later, the first first day of chemo, me and my ex-husband and my ex-girlfriend, we shaved my hair off and with a friend we shaved my hair off because I said that I wanted to be in control of my hair coming off, not cancer. And so we shaved my head till it was like, I was like a little bit left. It was like 2mm whatever, whatever it was, wasn't bald that there was like it was, it was shorter than buzz type.
And that lasted for three weeks. And then I got diagnosed. I got, I got hospitalized because I thought I had a staph infection. And when I was in the hospital, the rest of my hair fell out, which was like, to be graphic, like I didn't realize that all of your hair falls out when you lose your hair during cancer. It's not just your head hair, it's your eyebrows, it's your pubic hairs, it's your underarm hairs, it's your leg hairs. Like all of your hair is gone.
And so I was laying in this hospital bed and I got up to go to the bathroom and like, just like hair everywhere. Like my leg hair, like just all of my hair had fallen out. And I was really confused because I was like not expecting that to happen. So as of like March in 2021, I was completely bald and I went through 12 treatments of chemo. It's called 6 rounds, 12 treatments each. Each round is is 2 sessions. My I don't want to call him out for this. Whatever.
My ex-husband came to the first session of chemo with me to make sure that I could drive. And then after he realized I could drive myself, I went to the other 11 treatments by myself. So I went to 11 treatments by myself and I was sitting there in a hospital getting chemo for hours. Most of listening to music are making Tik Toks because what else are you going to do with your time? But it was it was a really scary time. It was also in the middle of
COVID. And so they, they weren't really allowing people like I could have had somebody there with me, but they weren't, they weren't allowing a lot of people in and out and at home. Like we were masking, right? Like because I was immunocompromised, right? Like I couldn't, I wasn't going out and having fun. It was it was a really isolating time.
But what was really cool is after at some point, I don't remember what point it was, but my doctor gave me the clear the go ahead to go on a flight to visit California, to visit my family and friends. I think it might have been after three weeks. I don't know what it was. It was after a few sessions of chemo and I flew back to California to pick up my son, to bring him back because my parents had taken him for a few weeks while I figured out the
first round or two of chemo. So I flew back to pick him up and I visited my friends and I visited my family and it was, it felt really nice to like be normal for like a weekend. And then I came back and unfortunately, like, you know, when there's like sickness or whatever and there's like, oh, 1% of people this will happen to, right? Like I'm always the 1%. So like I was the 1% that got
cancer. I was the 1% that like when I took this medication, I got a deathly severe thing called Steven Johnson syndrome and I almost died. I had bone pain. I had this, I had that like all of these things that are like only happened to a percentage of the population. I got all of them and they couldn't tell me why I was having pain for some of the
things that were happening. So it was, it was not a great time, but I had my last chemo treatment in August of 2021 and after that I was told that I was in remission. I got the port out almost immediately after that because then I moved to Washington and I switched over my care to Washington. I did have a complication after that where they had to remove this thing called the thymus, which is under your lung. It was growing in my body and
they weren't sure why. But other than that surgery, everything else has been fine since then. And like I mentioned earlier, two weeks ago I had my last scans and they were completely clear. So I I'm good for another year and I'll get a test in another year and then if next year comes back clear I'll be cancer free. Mazel tov. Yes. Yes, I know, I love it. I don't know how we got here.
Oh, can you tell us a little bit about kind of your healing process and like kind of, I know you probably went through like some fear and, and finding strength through your adversity. Yeah. Unfortunately, it taught me that I only had myself to lean to rely on and that was not super great. And I will say though, that it really pushed me to explore my queer side because I decided to have like A, at the time I was identifying as a female.
So I had a hot girl summer towards the end of my cancer treatment. I've never had a hot girl summer before. But like, I was like, fuck it. Like I'm hot And I, I looked great bald, unfortunately. And like I was going out to like clubs at the end of my cancer treatment and like partying and like meeting new people and like really just trying to like live it up because I was like, I only have one life. Like I'm not fucking this up. Like, I'm going to go party and whatever.
And I drove up to like Pennsylvania to like go to a bar with my sister because she lived in Pennsylvania at the time. And I was just like, I was having the time of my life because I was like, you know, I, I wanted to live.
And then I ended up moving to Washington to live with my partner and sort of like settled back in into like normal routine of like having a job and, you know, going to work every day and being a normal human being and not just like, all right, fuck it. But I still was at a point where like, I didn't want to hide my queer identity or hide my polyamorous identity or anything like that because I was like, I, I could die tomorrow. So like we're not doing that
anymore. And I, I think it just made me struggle. And like, I hate, I think the thing that I hate is that like, other than cancer, I have so much trauma in my life. Like so much trauma. Like I do EMDR therapy and my therapist is like, I made a list for her at the beginning and she was like, Jesus Christ. But like, I have so much trauma in my life that like, you know, like I should be broken down and sad and whatever. But like, I hate saying it's what brings me where I am today.
But like, it is right. Like I am who I am today because of the experiences that I've had and cancer is one of them. And going through my queer journey is one of them. Do I think I would be where I'm at today if it didn't happen the way that I did? No. Like, if I would have kissed my boyfriend 14 years ago, do I think that we'd be where we are today?
I don't know, right? Like I don't know if I was ready to be queer and out as queer and trans at that point in my life, Like, do I think I would have come out as trans and non binary? I don't know. Maybe. I think that all of those steps brought me to who I am today. And like, I don't think that I would be authentically me as a queer, trans, non binary, polyamorous, Jewish, professional artists, whatever, if all those other things didn't happen. Do I hate them? Absolutely.
Am I glad that I am who I am today? Also yes. I mean, really you're talking about just how like much deeper your relationship with yourself is because of the adversity you went through and how finding your own space let's you kind of expand to fulfill your own desire for what your own roles are in your own life, right?
I think you have to work towards that and you know, find the community that does let you build yourself in constructive ways and not restrict you or or be destructive of your endeavors to it. So how does that, how does it shaped you in your new community? I mean, I think that like with my new community, I think that just like I'm trying to find some chosen family and find a space that really accepts me for who I am. And I think that that's a hard thing to find, especially.
And I'm not going to get political. I'm not going to say which way that I fall on the spectrum. But as a Jewish queer person, there are a lot of views on Israel and Palestine where are very polarizing, where some people feel one way and some people feel the other. And finding a safe space as a Jewish queer person in any of these spaces can be conflicting for whoever it is.
And it's challenging, right? Like, it's really challenging to feel like I can find a space that I feel safe in and that is, you know, even being authentically me. And there's always that fear of like, me being myself is going to fuck something up. Right.
It's, it's kind of built in whenever we have threats from all sorts of places from the administration about us holding on to our identity or, you know, defending our, ourselves, even ideologically, there's all kinds of different pressures that come politically and, and from your faith as well.
And, and you know, sometimes the best thing is to not give any kind of political stance publicly and just to have your private conversations and let that be what it is, because you can't really affect a whole lot when it comes to the the largest situations other than what stays in your. I'll say like there are some things that are not political for me, like trans rights are not political, they are human rights, right? Like that is a non negotiable
for me, right? And you know, LGBTQIA plus rights are not a negotiable for me. Women's rights not a negotiable for me. Like those, those are stands. But like anything else, I try to keep out of my artist booth. I try to keep out of public spaces. Like it's just not, it's not where I where I put my put my coins. Especially after, you know, October 7th of yeah. So that that definitely changed the whole Israeli Palestinian conflict conversation, I think forever, but especially Jews.
I, I will say that as someone who deals with that and has been asked, you know, which side are you on and. You know and. Very pointedly, I completely understand. And I saw, I saw art in Seattle at Pride, right? Like there are people of both sides at Pride that are like my side, my side. And like I sell Jewish arts also like not just queer art, but like I sell at like Hanukkah festivals and like I have to hide some of my Jewish art because I'm afraid that like
it's going to cause an issue. Like they're going to be people who are anti-Semitic or they're going to be Jews who are like, what side are you on? And I don't want to have those conversations when I'm just trying to sell art. It's like that's challenging. We're like, I feel like I'm trying to like hide part of myself because I'm afraid of starting a conversation that's political. But like, I just, I don't, I don't want to.
Get into what parts of yourself deepened or shifted through the journey of getting diagnosed and realizing that you are trans and starting testosterone and all of those kind of milestones that I
like to call them. Yeah, I think for me it's been really interesting because like dysphoria has been like an interesting thing for me. Like I didn't get dysphoria growing up. Or like there are some people who are trans that are like they got dysphoria growing up, got dysphoria from wearing dresses, whatever. I was hyper feminine, right? Like I was hyper feminine and I never got dysphoria from that, but once I made a decision on who I was, that's when the dysphoria started right?
Like I decided that I was they she I got a lot of dysphoria from being she heard once I decided that I was right, I got a lot of dysphoria from being dead named. Once I decided that I was on testosterone and wanted to look more masculine, I got a lot of dysphoria from looking feminine and clothes fitting a certain way right. Like it's been interesting that like it's it's progressed,
right? Like it hasn't always been the same way for me. And I'd say that like a lot of that was pushed forward, projected or whatever that word is that I'm looking for by the cancer treatment. Because again, I lost my hair and I don't know if I would have ever cut my hair as short as it was if it wasn't for like a cancer statement. Maybe I would have. That's actually a lie because before cancer, I did like an undercut. I had a Jewish star undercut.
You can see it on my Instagram if you go to my regular Instagram. But I had a Jewish star undercut that was really cool. So I was already starting to play with the idea of like cutting my hair. I was doing like eyebrow slits and like other things, like maybe the short hair might have come at some point, but I think it like threw it into orbit and it was like, fuck you, here you go, we're going to mess with your gender.
Sure. Here is kind of a gateway, I think, to masculinity for people who were born female. It was, you know, the first thing I did, you know, when I started to assert my masculinity was we shaved my head and realized, oh, I like being bald. I which is. Interesting because for me at the beginning my bald had made me feel very feminine. Oh wow, that's really interesting. I I won't send them to you. Well, I could, but like me being bald.
Like you look at me and I'm like, you can tell that I'm like a hot woman. Yeah, and I've seen some of them on TikTok, Yeah. Yeah, like a bald woman. Like I feel so feminine in those pictures. It didn't feel masculine until it started growing back. There are plenty of feminine. An old woman? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I was actually somebody talking about like getting cancer again.
And I was like, I would be nervous to go bald again because I would feel, I feel like it might be dysphoric that like I would look feminine. Well, and, and I was going to ask you too, in terms of testosterone and hair loss, how do you feel about that? I'm on minoxidil. Oh, OK, so that's not. I'm on minoxidil. I also use Rosemary oil. I'm like pushing through. You can't see it in this. You Nobody on the podcast can see it, but my hair is really thin after cancer.
Anyways. I don't know if you could see that. Yeah, but I'm trying to get it to thicken back up. It's. Reported. So just to let you know, people can see this because we are recording this podcast. OK, great. Well then you can see it. My hair is thin. If you can see that, I don't know. But it comes up really well with the background blurred and everything it yeah, background. Blurred it looks OK but like. In reality, it's I don't know. And then it doesn't. Yeah.
So Ray, where can our listeners? What's your Instagram handle? The Instagram handle that I'll give you is Ray Sunshine Design. Ray Sunshine design on Instagram and you said no threads. No threads. It's. Super political I, I, if I want to have a panic attack at the end of the night, I'll go on to threads because that's where it's. At I've never done threads.
I have a Facebook that's personal though, so I'm not going to. I when I came out as trans and non binary and Polly, I like deleted everybody. I used to have friends on there and I was like, this is great. But now it's more like close people. So Instagram is the way to find me. Yes, free sunshine design at Instagram. I was going to say instagram.com I. Mean you go on the website. Right. Well, Ray, this has been such a pleasure having you on the show.
Thank you for, you know, taking this time and and being here with us. And, you know, I am thankful to to have this face, you know, especially in the climate that we're in. I'm sure that a lot of our listeners and myself and Claire are like, oh, what do we do in
times like these? And I, and I thought about it last night and I think that, you know, one of the ways that that at least, you know, we here can, can fight through what we're dealing with is to not be silent and, and to preserve our stories and to share our perspectives. Because, you know, as as threatening as, as things may be, you know, that's, that's a part of, you know, the, as a part of the regime is to scare
us into silence. And I think that, you know, speaking up and, and, and sharing our stories is so valuable and so important. And so, you know, I thank you for being here and sharing your story, Ray and, and Kevin for being here in the CNN for our audience tuning in week after week. That's right. We've been on every single week since the February 4th. So congratulations to us for showing up every single week, even when we don't feel like it. And.
Yeah, but you know, for our audience and for those that are listening and anybody that wanted to participate and have their story heard and shared across the world, please e-mail us at transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com. That's transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.
And I hope to have your story heard and preserved because thankfully, thanks to Athena, she has uploaded and saved every single episode to a hard drive, which means that we're safe forever until they take away the entire Internet from us. So but she has it on a on a hard drive so it's actually safe even if then so. Hard drives can fail, so you know, listeners, if they really feel like archiving, can't download the project, so you know they.
Can they can or we could do the whole CD thing that I wanted to do, but some of these said no. It's not. We don't need more plastic really, do we? No, I want to do vinyl records that way. You can. We don't even. Transparent on a vinyl Can you imagine having Ray Sunshine's episode on a vinyl poppy to put on your on your? I would love that that. 'D be so cool to see if Dana, if
people like that idea. Well, if you can afford the vinyl press to to do the episode yourself, that might be the most cost effective way, but it. Would be. I'm an effort to do that, you know, right? I know, I know. So it's 100. That's 140 vinyls that I'd have to do. That's right, because we have 140 episodes at this point. That's exciting. Well, Ray, you know, thank you for being here. Kevin, do you have any final questions or things or questions, thoughts, comments or
concerns? I feel like a teacher. I asked that. Thank you so much for being here. This was such an amazing conversation that I loved having with you and just I'm looking forward to more videos. Thanks. Yeah. More tick tocks. We love tick tock. We love tick tock. Especially now I made. A I made a thirst trap the other day, which was the first tick tock that I've made in three years. I didn't post it publicly, but it exists. So we might get we might get
some more tick tock soon. Maybe, maybe Kevin can add that into this episode. I'm kidding, right? There's Trav at the end of this episode. No thank you. Well. That'd be fun. No kidding you. Got to front load that stuff you're going to bring in the audience. That's how you bring it. That's how you bring them in the third. Oh. Yeah, there's a gap of a mask presenting person in lingerie. Yeah. I think Tina. But to each their own.
Well, we've always wanted to do an only fans that we at the end of the trend here of only fans. No, not not me. Oh, that was. Lucy. I wish I could do it like neck down but like I still need to work as an educator but like I'm happy to sell neck down for whatever. Price I'll sell feet neck. I'll send whenever. Yes, I think in any final thought, any questions you'd like to, anything you'd like to
say? Yes. I just thank you for sharing your experience about like how you've, you know, expressed yourself through your life, where, where you found yourself and, and your, your part in advocacy and, and being a part of the queer and art community. Thank you for your time. Is there any other part that you'd like to to share with us as far as like your your wisdom as a teacher that you like to share with your kids? How that's that's a good question.
I think just be who you are. That's a great one. That's that's a good one too, yeah. I like that. I have two. I have two final questions, following up on Athena's when when one of your students comes up today and says, Ray, it's really scary out there. It seems like everybody hates us and especially the government. What do I do? What would you say to your students that say, well, I don't know, I'm scared for the future, what do I do?
I would say, I know that it's scary and I know that we don't always know what's going to happen, but everything's going to be OK. And depending on where we're at, you can either be who you are or if you're, if you need to, you can, you know, pretend to be somebody else for a while, Whatever makes you safest and whatever makes you, you know, most comfortable in whatever space you're in, whatever that is. But ultimately, you know, it's going to get better. And I I truly do believe that
that it's going to get better. Well, again, I just want to thank, you know, Kevin for being here. Thank you, Kevin for making time with us. And Athena, thank you for taking the time to be here with us and audience. Thank you for being here with us week after week and supporting the show and, and being here with us and preserving the stories of the trans community. And Ray Sunshine, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. It's been a pleasure.
And I'm finally, I'm finally glad after six months we were able to finally get the episode out. Thank you so much for being so patient of. Course. Yes, absolutely. So as we depart now and carry on to our week, what's the message that you'd like to leave our listeners with to carry into our hearts? I think I'll echo what I said about to the children that just be who you are and don't stop fighting.