Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey continues with chapter sixteen of Quintus Silmarillion of Miglin. In chapter sixteen, we're introduced to the story of Aol the Dark, elf A Redel, the White Lady of the Noldor, and their son Miglan, whose name means sharp glance. Though a tale unto itself, it leads to events that will have
dire consequences for all of billeriond. Over the next several months, will continue revisiting the entire thirty episode Silm Mirillion series that Greta and I recorded back in twenty twenty two. While you're listening, check out Selmguide dot com. That's Silmguide dot com for guides to individual chapters. You can find that link in the show notes. To support our work here, please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there,
fellow travelers. Welcome to The Tolkien Road Episode two ninety five. Greta, what's happening to ninety five? Um?
Yeah, the US, right on? Yeah, what's happening with you?
The yush cool the episode we will be discussing chapter sixteen of the film million of Meglin Maglin.
Maglin, mag What is the right way to say it?
You know, I've never felt comfortable anyway I try to say it. I think it's I think it's Maglin, but uh, you know, if you use the film million. So that's what I'm sticking with. That's the only version that makes sense. But I feel like it's subtle, like the right way to say it. So yeah, anyway, before we get started, we'd like to give a double up air five to our patrons. Get them hands up there. Here we go, three, two, one, osh, boom. That good.
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Special Thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin of T with Tolkien, Jacob Blockham, John h and our newest patron and newest executive producer, Scotchy Bobo.
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You know, But I mean eagles is a reference to eagles?
Okay? Good, as long as no reference to you know.
Like, that's why I didn't. I can't believe you even thought.
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So our quote of the week is from the Fulmarion chapter sixteen, and it goes like this, It seemed to Idrill a thing strange and crooked in Meglin as indeed the elder ever since have deemed it an evil fruit of the kin slaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mondos fell upon the last hope of an oldor yes, words of words, prophetic words of doom.
Yeah, yeah, I was, I was thinking about that, and I think we'll probably talk about it in the episode. But yeah, it seems like this curse just kind of keeps manifesting in different ways.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you know, would you call this this chapter a tragedy? Would you call this chapter of tragedy? Yeah? I think so. Yeah, yeah, pretty tragic events. In chapter sixteen we learn of a tragic of a we learn sorry, let's try it again. In chapter sixteen we learn of the tragic tale of Adothel, the White Lady of the no oldor Al, the dark elf of non El Moth Maglin, their son, and Idril, the daughter
of tour Goan. So as with each episode, we won't be covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing our best to hit the high points and unpack interesting and important details. If we miss something, you guys want to discuss more, let us know, all right. Timeline, so per our volume ten, Volume ten, Volume eleven of the History of Middle Earth, War of the Jewels, the timeline for this is year of the Sun three sixteen two
Year of the Sun four hundred for this story. So it actually Tolien kind of jumped around in terms of what year he put Arathel's departure from Gondolin in what year he placed that. It originally was placed much much further, you know, along in the timeline, but he moved it
back and that was where he kept it. And so Rathel's leaving of Gondolin is in the year three sixteen and their return with Meglin is in the year four hundred years of Year of the Sun. So that gives you an idea of framework for the timeline we're talking about here, all right. So Arthel restless in Gondolin. The White Lady of the Noldor. She is the daughter of Fingolfen, who of course is the high King of the Noldor, and she lives in Gondolin with her brother Torgon, right,
who is the King of Gondolin. But after a while, she's not so fond of it anymore. Right, And I feel like this is this is you know, an old or thing. Right. They don't they don't like being cooped up so much, it would seem I think Galadrail is the same way. Fan Or was certainly the same way. And I think maybe her not being cooped up maybe explained something about her her love for the Sons of fan Or that we learned about later on, right, that she feels kind of a she feels drawn to them,
right to the Sons of fan Or. So she basically says, you know, tells Torgon that she would like to leave, and he's like, uh, you know, why do you want to leave? Right? I don't want anybody to leave, and because that's dangerous. This is kind of our little hidden kingdom. We're all protected here, no one knows the way to
get here. And she's basically like, well, you may be the king, but i'm your sister, so I'm kind of gonna do what I want, right, So you can either help me or you can I'll just I'll just leave my own volition. So he's like, okay, well I'll send you then, please. I would like it if you just went to visit visit Fingn and Hitthlam, right, and so let's you know, let's let's look at him. Let's look
at a map here, just to refresh ourselves on the op. Yeah, there we go, all right, So we're right here in Gondolin, right lake, get the lay of the land, and Hitthlam of course is right here, and Fingn is the is the king of this realm. And so in order to leave, they have to go west right here. And you know, it's not doesn't seem like too long a trip to go from Gondolin to Hitthlam there. And that's the plan, right, She's going to be escorted to Hititlam and to dwell there with Fingn their brother.
Yeah, yes, it seems fair. That seems like a good compromise.
H It's it would maybe seem so, but yeah, Arathel has no intention of sticking to that plan. And that's the that's the problem here, right.
She's a tricksy one.
Yes, yes, you know, and I mean I can understand why she wants to get away, and you know, I can understand that She's like, look, I know you want to protect me and everything, but like you know, I'm I'm an old or right, I can handle this. And you know, she proves to be pretty tough. I would say, you know, she she We're gonna learn she makes her way through a lot of perilous realms basically by herself. Right.
So was do you think Turgon's concern Was it more for her safety or was it more that he was afraid that Gondolin would become like found out.
I'm sure it's both, right, I mean, the probably the higher priority is that Gondolin is not found out. But anyway, you know, and you kind of think about it, right, like you know, before you know, we accuse old Torgon of being like you know, you know, being overly controlled and everything like that. Again, remember he was inspired, you know, to create this city by dream from Olmo. Right, it is directly inspired. And if you look at the map, they're really not very far away from, uh from more
goth in his in his realm. Right. So you know, I know this is a time of relative peace, but it wouldn't be too surprising if there was like a little like special Ops band of Orcs that came down here, like you know, just kind of hung out here hoping to find hearing rumors of this realm, this hidden realm, and hoping to find the entrance to it. Right, you
know what if they captured her? Right, So you know, this is not you know, way down south and there's really no fear, you know, nothing to fear down here. This is a you know, this is this is a strategic concern of Torgon's, right, this is his his concern
as the king of the whole realm. So she has no intention of really going to Hitlum, but she goes there, she's escorted, and she's and then they get out and she's basically like, okay, now we're going to turn south and we're gonna go and journey to him lad, right, which is the realm of the sons of fan Or Right, I want to go see my they're my friends. I would like to go see them. It would seem that they want to have they want passage through uh through Dorioth, right,
because that's you know a little bit safer. It's the realm of Thingle and Melion. But Dorioth doesn't want to let them pass right, they're not. They're not friendly with an old or right, so, uh so they're basically told like, look, you can either go you can if you want to go see the sons of Fan, or you either have to go to the north. You have to journey all the way to the south. That looks like a very long journey for them to go all the way to the south. So, uh so Rothel is like, well, we're
going to go the northern route. Of course, this is bordering on the lands of Eric Gorgoroth and that is not a friendly place. Uh and Non Non don Gortheb isn't either, So so this is a pair of thing. And when they enter into the land of Non Dune Gortheb Arethel basically like the men Torgon's men who are keeping watch over her and escorting her basically lose track of her and she has to make the rest of
the journey herself. And these men, after looking for for some time, these guards, after're looking for sometime, they return to Gondolin, and you know she's feared lost at that point.
Yeah, And that was of no really fault of anybody's I mean, it's just right, I mean, it was not that she tried to lose them or they just left her be they. I mean, it was just a perilous road and they became separated.
Right, that's right, that's right. Well, and again, like you know, she wasn't really open to them saying we were told not to go here, right, She's like, I'm going to go where I want to go, and if you guys want to follow along, you can, right.
She's got an adventurer's heart.
Yeah. Well, and you know, very apparently very strong willed as well.
Absolutely, yep. As those women of Gondolin are known to.
Be, yes, are they? Are they known to me?
Yeah? I think so? Okay, yes, at least this one is.
All one of them that we know of, all right, So so yes, passing through, Uh, she does manage to pass through this perilous region of non Dun Gorthub and arrives in hym Laud, meets the people, meets the people of Kelligorm and Quaffin there, but Kelligorm and Kuifin are not at home, so she she abides there for a short time and she's welcome there, but at one point she gets restless again and she goes riding by herself and she journeys a little too far south and gets
immeshed in non Elmoth here, this forested region here. So let's read a little bit about non Ellamoth. Yeah, so, Greta, please read this passage right.
In that wood and ages past, Melion walked in the twilight of Middle Earth, when the trees were young and enchantment lay upon it still. But now the trees of non Elmoth were the tallest and darkest in all Balirirond. And there the sun never came. And there al Dwelt, who was named the dark Elf of Old. He was of the kin of Thingle, but he was restless and ill at ease and Dorioth. And when the girdle of Melion was set about the forest of region where he dwelt,
he fled thence to non Elmoth. There he lived in deep shadow, loving the night and the twilight under the stars. He shunned an oldor, holding them to blame for the return of Morgoth to trouble the quiet of Blairirond. Before the Dwarfs, he had more liking than any other of the Elk of Old. From him, the Dwarves aren't much of what passed in the lands of the Eldar.
Yeah, so this ale is he's kind of a hermit, right. He prefers to be on his own. He does not like an oldor who unfortunately he lives very close to, and he really doesn't seem to like other elves as well that much.
So what is his He says, he's kind of thingle So does that mean that he's Tilarry.
Well he sent Yeah, he's send well And I mean that's what the Sindar are Tilary that didn't make the final journey too, I'm on right, Yeah, so, uh he is he is Sindarn and but he feels really I mean, he feels most at home amongst dwarves, right, he feels most at home amongst dwarves. And we learned a little bit more that he's he learns much of metal work and comes to great skill through his friendship with them.
And he even creates this particular type of metal, uh that is it says it's so malleable that he could make it thin and supple, and yet it remained resistant to all blades and darts. And he named it Galvoorne, for it was black and shining like jet, and he was clad in it wherever he went abroad.
So this is not mythrol, No, this is not myth through that sounds similar.
Well, you know it's it's it's powerful metal. Right. So, and one day he happens to be, you know, in non ell Moth, and he sees Adithel Arthaniel. He sees Rothel there, and he really thinks she's thinks she's.
Something something special.
Yeah, very fair. She seemed to him, and he desired her, and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood. There were his smithy, and his dim halls, and such servants
as he had, silent and secret as their master. And when Arethel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself, and he welcomed her and led her into his house, and there she remained for aole, took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her kN heard of her again. Now all of that sounds very you know, like like very suss right, Yeah,
I will say that. You know, let's include in this account it is not said that that Adithel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life and non ell Moth was hateful to her for many years.
Not unwilling does not initially mean willing.
Though well not and I agree, right, not wholly unwilling? So is what it says there?
It is not said, Okay, yeah, it is not said.
That Rthel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life and non ell Moth was hateful to her for many years. But you know, so it's kind of like it it's kind of like damning with faint praise, you know, I think it's the saying right. You know, it wasn't entirely hateful. It didn't just utterly suck. It only sucked a little bit. Yeah. So, but definitely, you know, this this just right off the bat.
You know, we see that Ale is a very uh he's a very problematic figure, you know, to put it in in a somewhat wishy washy academic way, right, you know, this is just not right what he does to what he does to autothel here.
But isn't it what Meleon did the thingle.
Well, that's an interesting point, isn't it right? Yeah, But at the same time, I don't like, you know, I mean do you do you think do you think it's completely equivalent?
Well, I don't want to get on down this rabbit trail too much because I know I've shared my opinions like at length on how I feel about enchantments leading area.
Do we want to revisit that argument?
I think truly the only difference here is that that Melion is not nearly as sus as Ale, and that was the woman taking the lead, which I'm totally fine with. I just this seems a little more sus to me because it's it's basically glorified kidnapping.
Mm hmmm, because Ale is totally sketchy and he lives in dark woods and you know, I don't know.
I feel like Thingle could have stood up for himself if he wanted to, but uh Arthell probably didn't feel like she could have.
I feel like she was taken advantage of.
But at the same time, it talks about I mean she was pretty I mean she was pretty tough. She was pretty tough slaty, right, I mean she journeyed through this perilous region, which was not a small you know, this wasn't like a day's trip. This is a large region of Bellerion right, this non dunge Gorth, and it basically says she came through this region all by herself,
right on the edge of edd Gorgorot. You know, in later years, this is like where Baron is going to, like, you know, spend some time and it's going to be like hell on Earth for him, you know. Yeah, so you.
Know, no doubt.
I'm not saying she wasn't tough, but I mean it was probably it was probably a calculated decision. I mean, what was what was her what was the alternative? No? Yeah, I mean did she want to go back through that road? Probably not.
I think where I land on all this? All right, so you brought I didn't even remember the whole Thingle and mellyon thing, right.
I feel very strongly about those people.
Yeah, well you do, and I I to me, it's just like, okay, it's interesting to think about like what a Tolkien intent because I feel like, you know, he's telling story. He's telling stories in a style that you know that go back to a certain you know, a certain way of thinking that's not as that's not as
prevalent anymore. And it's all about this idea of like enchantment, and you know, you know, I mean you like, couldn't you say that anybody who Okay, just bear with me for a minute for the sake of argument, all right, couldn't you say that anybody who sees somebody and says like I really want, like, I think that person is the most beautiful person I've ever seen, and I'm just smitten, like love at first sight, and I have to be with that person, right, I have to have that person, right,
Like a lots of love stories that we admire begin that way, right, And and people do things that you might refer to as enchanting, like putting on the mood, like you know, putting on the move, all this stuff, right, whatever you want to like, that's how we put it today. But it's like.
This is a different level though, I mean, there's clearly some like unforeseen power at work, right.
Yeah, I guess the question is like does she is she like without without agency? I mean I'm trying, I'm trying to read back, does she have is she basically kidnapped or like, you know, what happened, what happens here, Let's read it again. And when Artha, we were with wondering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself, and he welcomed her, and he let and led her into his house, and there she remained for Al took her to wife, and it was long ere any of her ken heard of her again.
This doesn't say I mean, I mean, if she had fought, is that kind of what you're thinking of? Like did she resist in.
Yeah, it's like, well, what were the enchantments? You know, like what you know, what were the enchantments that he used? And did they like did they wear off to the at some point and she was able to like make
a you know, a smarter decision or better decision. Like I don't know, to me, maybe we're reading this text in the wrong way because like it's not intended to be that kind of thing, right, Yeah, I feel like I feel like it's a is it is it unfair to like assign to like put that reading on like put that kind of reading on this in this case?
But I think as we discuss and I get it, and I think that's a fair question. As we get further into this into the the chapter and actually like learn more of the story, I think it reveals something of Ale's character and I feel like he is revealed to be. I mean, he he goes after I don't okay, I don't want to get there before. But I'm saying I think what we come to learn of Ale's character makes me think that he definitely kept her there against her will.
That's just my two cents.
He definitely shows off a high degree of possessiveness as time goes on. Yes, and he refuses you know when when when later on, you know, and I think this is probably what you may have been referring to. But later on, when there's this desire to go back and visit Gondolin, he's.
Not He's not warm to that at all, right, he's not.
And he's not even happy about them going to visit an old like basically leaving non non elmouth right right exactly.
So I think that that's that just shows what kind of person he is, And he's the kind of guy that wants what he wants and he's going to take it regardless of you know, consent on the others, on the other's part.
But you know, but if they if they were truly okay, if let's just to say that that they were okay, like enchantment, you know, working this enchantment means that Okay, yeah, maybe he was a little like you know, used used his skills right to like kind of get her there and then and then but but then you know he charged like he just charmed her, and she like.
Truly felt thing charming about him.
Now you know, well let me finish, right, we don't we don't see either way, Like we don't know how he was at first. Like it doesn't basically say like and he like you know, a ret like you know, like put handcuffs on her right and never let her leave the house, right, I mean it you can read it in a way where it sounds like it sounds
like damning with faint praise. That that's also Tolkien could just be speaking in such and he speaks in this kind of archaic way, and that could mean that like she actually kind of she actually liked him, you know, she actually liked him at first, right for a long time, right, Yeah.
That could be. That could be.
But I also feel like she really didn't have another choice. Yeah, I mean he clearly he didn't let her leave, even when she wanted to just go on a visit. But even if she wanted to escape, escape, like she really if you look at where now in Elmouth is elmth whatever. I mean, she really has no no weather options, right, I mean unless she wants to go back through the Parallels Road, and I mean, which I guess she could have done, but at this point she has a kid, and you know, I don't know.
Well I think you know. Anyway, we talked about this particular section a lot longer than you know than I plan to you, quite honestly. But it's a really interesting discussion now that I think about it, Like there's you know, how do you how do you read this? And I think living in a particular time that we live in, with the sensitivities that we have, the cultural sensitivities that we have, we can read this in a way that maybe it wasn't quite intended to be.
I think that way. I think that's fair.
Yeah, I I'm not necessarily defending Ale because we find out that Ale is not really, you know, this great guy, right, I mean you tell you definitely is not this great guy in the grand scheme of things. But uh, you know, if I if I try to read it in terms of how Tolkien intended it, I don't think it was intended to make him sound like he was like, you know, basically like kidnapped her and made her a sex slave.
Right, Yeah, so this is you're just saying, this is not Beauty and the Beast, because that's kind of the flavor I'm getting. But except obviously it's like Beauty and the Beast, but without the redeeming.
Without like a tragic version of beauty.
It's a tragic version of Beauty and the Beast.
Okay, I'm just not as up on beating the Beast as other people.
That's basically what happens, right.
She goes wandering in the woods and he catches, you know, she she wanders into his castle, and he doesn't want anybody to to, you know, to find him or his castle, so he helds her hostage in the castle, right, And she does come to love him so but still he basically forces her to stay against her will, which I don't know, that might be extreme. I mean, I don't know.
It just it just rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah, and that just made me feel bad for Aerothyl because that's not that's not what she wanted when she left Gondolin. I can't imagine that's what she wanted.
Yeah, Yeah, well, hey, so a lot of discussion on that. Let us know what you think in the comments below in this one, because I'm genuinely curious to see how other people read this passage. I'm I'm conflicted on it, as you can tell. So anyway, all right, moving on, So through all of this, they have a child, and the child's name is Maglin, right, So Maglin means sharp glance in Noldoran. Actually she names him Loman and that
signifies child of the Twilight. And then he receives this name from his father, Meglin, which is sharp glance.
So they couldn't even agree on a name.
Like, he goes and changes the name that Arthell gave him, which I think is messed up.
Well, well, that's it's an old door in name, right, it's so it's forbid, it's a it's in a forbidden tongue.
The forbidden. Yeah, but he could have used the Oh, I see what you're saying, and he was. He did not like then old door, right, right, I understand, And it says.
In her heart she gave him a name like she. I don't think he knew that. I don't think he knew that she had given him that name, right, says, it does. She gave him a name in the forbidden tongue of an old door.
Yeah right, yeah, so.
Yeah, so Meglin uh, you know, he grows up. It says he was tall and black haired. His eyes were dark yet bright and keen as the eyes of the old door, and his skin was white. You know, he's he's pretty much uh in face and form, he resembles an old or right. So you know, that's interesting because it also gives this kind of the description of what an old or you know, physical description of what a typical nulldor might have looked like. And then we learn
of uh uh. He learns of Gondolin from Rithol from his mother, right. She tells him about this place where she came from, and and he is just thinks it sounds wonderful and he wants to go there. And he tells his father that he wants to go there, and Meglin is not happy about that idea. Yep, you are the You are of the house of ale Megland, my son, he said, and not of the Golothrim. All this land is the land of the Tillari. And I will not deal, nor have my son deal with the slayers of our kin,
the invaders and usurpers of our homes. In this you shall obey me, or I will set you in bonds and Meglan did not answer, but was cold and silent and went abroad no more with Ale, and Ale mistrusted him. So so yeah, uh he you know, Ale is not about to, you know, allow them to leave and go to Gondolin on this trip, but that doesn't stop Meglin from proposing it to Audthl anyway. And what ends up happening is they they make their journey.
So they have to wait until well Ale has left right to go to a feast.
So it comes to happen that Ale has left to go to a feast with the dwarves and and Adithel and Meglin get a two day head start. They tell they tell the servants that they're going to visit with an old Or with the sons of fan Or, but really they they go straight back to Gondolin from there.
But what does happen is Ale gets home finding out they're gone, and he hears they've gone to see the sons of fan Or, and so he decides to go have a conversation with the sons of fan Or because he's not happy about this, right, and so that leads us to this very interesting, heated dialogue between one of the sons of fan Or and Ale. This one of the sons of fan Or we speak of is Kuafin who is you know? I'd basically say this, This is a conversation between two Ales. So won't you come on?
That's very clever. Yes, yes, I would agree.
I know. Still we can keep that clean rating, I'm telling you, I said, Ale, Ale, Yeah, yep, all right, all right, So Greta, uh, maybe we can read this back and forth since it's a dialogue. All right, Well it's not really there's like narration in it too, so why don't you go and read it?
Then, Coryffin said to Ale, what errand have you dark elf in my lands?
What at?
An urgent matter? Perhaps that keeps one to sunshine abroad by day?
Yeah, that makes more sense.
An urgent matter, perhaps that keeps one so sunshy abroad by day. And Ale, knowing his peril, restrained the bitter words that arose in his mind. I have learned, Lord Coruyffin. He said that my son and my wife, the White Lady of Gondolin, have written to visit you while I was from home, and it seemed to me fitting that I should join them on this Errand then Cooruffon laughed at Aole, and he said, they might have found their welcome here less warm than they hoped had you accompanied them.
But it is no matter, for that was not their errand it is not two days since they passed over the aras Arasiach Arosiach. And thence rode swiftly westward. It seems that you would deceive me, unless indeed you yourself have been deceived. And Aol answered, then, lord, perhaps you will give me leave to go and discover the truth of this matter. You have my leave, but not my love, said Couruffin. The sooner you depart from my land, the
better will it please me. Then Eole mounted his horse, saying, it is good, Lord Couruffin, to find a kinsman thus kindly a need. I will remember it when I return. Then Couraffin looked darkly upon Aole. Do not flaunt the title of your wife before me, he said, For those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave, do not gain kinship with their kin I have given you leave to go take it
and be gone. By the laws of the elder, I may not slay you at this time and this council, I add, return now to your dwelling in the darkness of non Elmouth, for my heart warns me that if you now pursue those who love you no more, never will you return thither.
Yeah. So, uh, not a friendly conversation between those two. We will. We will see quite a bit more of Courfin, especially in the story of Baron, and Luthian.
Agrees with me. Yeah, I mean I think he too thinks it's messed up.
Well, I mean, you know, he may agree with you, but but I wouldn't be like, well, Couriffine agrees with me, So yeah, right, a Corfin is not exactly the this like moral paragon, which we find out later on. So yeah, well, I think he probably agrees with you because he's going
to read whatever Ale did in the worst possible light. Now, no, again, it's clear that at some point Arithel is there against her will, right, And uh so you know I get that, and I'm not I'm not trying to say aol is like this guy who's just been totally wronged and like the way he's presented. I'm just saying, like going back, just going back to that argument real quick. All I'm saying. All I'm saying, people, is what's the right way to read that? How did Tolkien intend for that for us
to understand that initially? All right, That's all I'm asking.
All right, it's a fair question.
So okay, So yeah, basically we keep on hearing these foreboding words that you know, hey, you know, something bad is going to come of this if you try to follow these people that don't love you anymore. But of course, I mean aol, I mean, he's going to be he's going to be really mad about this because not only did they leave without asking him, but they lied to him about where they were, about where they were going.
But he set himself up for that.
Well, I didn't say, I'm just saying he is going to be like he is going to be there's no way he's going back to no, no, right right him? Right in terms of his character?
Right, Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So I'm just really impressed that he was able to catch them because he went like he basically went the wrong way, right and then and they had a two day head start and he's still caught up with them, which is pretty crazy to me. I mean, was his horse just like really fast or did he not stop for pee breaks or.
Like, well, there's two of them, and yeah, I mean, if you're riding fast, you know, if you've got if you've got anger and adrenaline on your side, then you know, you might be riding a little faster, right.
That's true.
Yeah, So and he probably he probably learned that, you know, he probably knew that there was no way that if they got into Gondolin before he reached them, then there was no way he was going to find them, right, Yeah, then then they were lost.
So he's probably wouldn't know the road, right, you know.
I'm sure he figured out if he didn't know before he met Rathel, I'm sure he he learned about Gondolin, you know, and like this the deal with Gondolin from her. I don't think she told him the hidden road or anything like that, right anyway, But so he they arrive and they're they're betrayed by their horses, right because the horses neigh very loudly. And then Ale's horse hears ther, here's those horses, and he finds them just in time to follow them without them seeing him, right, so he's
able to follow them through. Then, by ill fate, they were portrayed. For the horses made loudly, and Ale's steed heard them and sped towards them. And Ale saw from afar that white raiment of Atithel and marked which way she went, seeking the secret path into the mountains. All right, so they returned to Gondolin. Everyone is of course happy to see Adithel after all this time, and h of course, no one more so than tor Gone. And and he's
very he's very warm, you know, towards Maglin. He really he sees mag and he's like, all right, well here's a you know, true true son of you know, true son of the knoldor right here, right, this is a you know, this is a pleasant surprise, right.
And and Turn himself has no heir, right because he only has a daughter. So I'm sure he saw Maglin and was like, oh.
Well, and and actually you know this something we didn't mention earlier. But when Maglin's first hears about he when he when his mother first tells him about Gondolin, and you know, kind of describes that situation, right, you know, he learns like, Okay, he's like, you know this this son of the king's sister, right, and the king has no heir. Right, He's like, you know, it doesn't say directly, but you could's like, you know, he's calculating, right, it's
it talks about him. He's kind, oh, I could be the king of Gondolin maybe, Okay, yeah, all right, So so that's all part of you know, his his desire right to want to come back to Gondolin and and to see it and to dwell there. And you know, they know that once they're back, they're really probably is not going to be any more leaving at that point.
But Aol does uh does show up as well, and he's he's of course caught by the guards as he's coming into Gondolin, uh, And they bring him before Torgon and and they, you know, tor Goon basically gives him the you know, basically gives him the what for.
Is actually pretty nice to well, I would have been that nice to he.
Is, but he, you know, he does he gives them a little bit of the what for. But but we'll read this passage here. And so it was done, and Ale was brought to Torgon's hall, and stood before his high seat, proud and sullen. Though he was amazed no less than his son. At all that he saw, his heart was filled the more with anger and with hate of an oldor. But Torgon treated him with honor, and rose up and would take his hand, and he said, welcome, kinsman.
For so I hold you here. You shall dwell at your pleasure, save only that you must here abide and depart not from my kingdom. For it is my law that none who finds the way hither shall depart. But Ale withdrew his hand. I acknowledge not your law, he said. No right have you or any of your can in this land to seize realms or to set bounds, either
here or there. This is the land of the Tillary, to which you bring war, and all in quiet dealing, ever proudly and unjustly, I care nothing for your secrets. Night can came not to spy upon you, but to claim my own, my wife, and my son. Yet if in Atathel your sister you have some claim, then let
her remain. Let the bird go back to the cage, where soon she will sicken again, as she sickened before but not so Meglin, my son, you shall not withhold from me, Come Meglan, son of Ale, Your father commands you leave the house of his enemies in the slayers of his ken, or be accursed. But Meglin answered nothing. Then Torgon sat in his high seat, holding the staff of his staff of Denys, and in a stern voice, spoke, I will not debate with you, dark elf, by the
swords of then old or alone? Are you are? Are you are? Your sunless woods defended your freedom to wander there, wild wild, you owe to my ken, and but for them, long since you would have labored, enthralled them in the pits of angband. And here I am king. And whether you will it or will it not, my doom is law. This choice only is given to you to abide here or to die here. And so also for your son.
So you know, Ale, he he's not a team player, right, He sees things a certain way, you know, And he's a very I mean, he's just an interesting character in that way, right, He's just this curmudgeonly kind of figure, right. It doesn't you know, doesn't want a whole lot to do with anybody else, wants to be left alone. In general.
That's why he lives deep in the woods. And you know, he doesn't respect then old or he thinks that they are, that they're they're unwelcome, that they brought trouble, and he's not about to you know, be berated by this, you know, and told he has to stay and be berated by this, you know, by this king who he used as a pretender. Right yep, uh, you know, someone unrightful. So what's Ale's what's Ale going to do in this case? I mean he's going to try He's going to try and kill somebody, right,
I mean, that's that's basically where he's at. I mean, you know, you might argue that he could have you know, he could have calculated or bied his time or something like that, which Mageland seems to be doing. But Ale is just he's not wired that way. And so Al it turns out he's hiding he's been hiding a javelin this whole time, poison tip javelin. He attempts to kill Maglin, and Arathel throws herself in front of him and ends
up being the one that's wounded and mortally wounded. So Al was responsible for the death of Meglin, which is the I'm sorry for the death of Adothel, even though he was trying to kill me. He was trying to kill megln and responsible for the death of Adothel. Now Arthel had had basically before she died, she'd said, you know, look, just have mercy on him, right, you know, you know, we don't need to put him to death or anything
like that. But then she dies and it's like, well that's there goes that, right, Yeah, all bets are off at this point. Therefore, when Ale was brought before Torgon, he found no mercy, and they led him forth to the cad a precipice of place, a precipice of black rock, upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city. And Meglin stood by and said nothing. But at the last Ale cried out, so you forsake your father and
his kin, ill gotten son. Here shall you fail of all your hopes, and here may you yet die the same death as I. So meg Glynn doesn't speak up for him, and they Ol basically curses him. Then they cast Ale over the cartag door, and so he ended into all and Gondolin it seemed just. But Idril was troubled and from that day she mistrusted her kinsman, and so I take it that to me. And she's troubled by the fact that they put him to death, right
Is that how you understood that? Does she was troubled by, uh by by the fact that they put you know, basically gave a the death penalty.
Yeah, that's how I read it too.
I mean, yeah, it seems like that's that seems like what it's saying right there.
I think we failed to mention earlier that Idrill that Mageland has.
A thing for Drill.
Yes, Andril is the daughter of Tehran, that's right, So I mean they're technically cousins. Yeah, right, yeah, Dril does not feel the same, right, But anyway.
Well that's that's what Yeah. Well, and it kind of says that that was the first half of that quote of our quote of the week.
Right, Yes, that it refers to you.
Know what it refers to. But anyway, al Ale dies. But Meglin, you know, really is he's kind of held in high esteem in the court of Torgon and says he's wise in counsel and wary and yet hearty and valiant at need. Right, he takes part in some of the great battles they're going to happen. So you know, he is a he's quite quite an individual, even though he's pretty quiet like his father. Right, he doesn't, he's kind of an elf A few words, right, But yes,
he does have a He does have a thing for Idril. Right, For from his first days in Gondolin he had borne a grief, ever worsening that robbed him of all joy. He loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without hope the Eldar wedded, not with Ken so near, nor ever before, had any desire to do so. First cousins, and however that might be, Idril loved Meglin not at all, and knowing his thought of her, she loved him the less, for it seemed to her a strange thing and crooked
in him. As indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it an evil fruit of the kin slaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of mind fell upon the last hope of then Olldor. You know, so, pretty pretty adult, pretty adult themed, pretty adult themes going on here, right, you know? We we we talk about the controversy over just you know, the controversy of Ale and his enchantment of Atathel right to lead off the chapter. And then we have you know, Meglin and his uh, you know,
his desire for you know, basically his first cousin. Right, So it's interesting to see you know, this kind of a how should we put it? Right? This like you know, this this thing repeating itself right in the life of in the life of Meglin that was you know, some some kind of issue of his father's as well, right, you know, you're just like, yeah, this is not going to play out well, this is this is this is not gonna end well. And you know that's essentially the
tragedy of this figure Meglin. And by the way, you know, this is an interesting chapter to kind of be inserted here into this sulm really, because you know, someone has been jumping back and forth between chapters that are like talking about like who rules what realm and maps and you know, we had all several chapters where we were talking about like the the noldor leaving vallenor and so you know it's just kind of this some runs kind of this roller coaster in this chapter, like well, what
does this chapter have to do with anything? Right, It's just kind of the story of this dark elf and it's just this sad story about like you know this you know how he he enchanted this you know this elf lady and you know they had a child together and then he he killed her when he was trying to kill his son because he was mad that they wouldn't leave with him, right, And like, what does this
have to do with anything? Well, it's it's it's sowing seeds for greater tragedies later because of what it's doing, right, It's you know, it's this idea that like it really is like that the Oath of Fan or the Curse of Mandos, like all these things are going to manifest and really, uh more and more tragic ways as the rest of the story unfolds.
It this seems pretty tragic to me.
Well it is, it is, and you know, I mean many tears to be shed over.
This, yeah, yeah, there's are.
Yeah, And and the truth is that Maglin is going to play a big part in that, right, So all right? Yeah, any final thoughts there, Greta.
All right, good discussion.
I think you got a haiku?
Yeah, all right, are you in rock paper scissors.
Rock paper scissors, shoot boom. First all right, dark Elf of deep Woods, Lady of Hidden Haven, child of sharp Secrets.
It's really good. I like that a lot. Well done. All right, here's man.
And that's why you don't marry sketchy yelves that live in sunless forests.
Mm hmmm nice. Yeah, spoken like the guy on Arrested Development.
If only I had a mic drop.
That's why you listen to your father, I'm saying, that's why you don't yell.
Yeah, all right, it's just nothing good could come of it, you know, yeah, clearly nothing.
To Okay, Well, all right, I'm just I'm curious to know though, like, like what, what to you is the distinction between single melion and uh like what because you brought it up right melyon, but discuss this, okay. I just kind of want to come back the final your final word on it. I'm just I'm interested, okay.
Well, first of all, melion not nearly as sketchy as ale.
Okay, Okay, She's.
Like the sketchiness factor has.
Definitely a big arger sketchiness factor or here, and the fact that the male was enchanting the female automatically makes it more not okay for me, And I mean Melian was gorgeous and so is Thingle, so I was totally fine with that, you know. I mean I still feel like and Thingle could have stood up for himself. I think that's why I just feel and not, oh gosh, I'm really need to careful about what I say here.
Not that Arithel could not have stood up for herself, but I feel like if Thingle wanted to leave, it would have been much easier for him to leave. I mean, first of all, he was in a better part, Like he was not in the same I guess they were in the same forest, but still like he's he he, he just would have had more of an ability to get out of that situation than Arethel did, just given the fact that she's a woman.
Okay, all right, that's just me, all right, what I just I think it's really I you know, I was just kind of set on, like, yeah, Ale was being a bad dude, and then we brought the meg we brought the Dingle and melee on thing into it.
How can we know because it's like it's obviously the same thing but reversed a little bit.
Well, No, That's all I'm saying is like, when we brought that into the equation, I was like, okay, yeah, what is the difference? Wait a minute, what's going Like? How do we how do we you know, how do we assess that? Right? And I was like, because because we don't look at Thingle and melee On and say like,
how dare melee On? Right, It's like it's like, yeah, like Thingle was like saw this like the most beautiful of like all creatures he'd probably ever seen, right, and was just completely enchanted with her, and she was enchanted with him.
Right, So maybe that's the thing. It was more consensual.
I feel like between Thingle and meley On, this gives me the air of not being consensual.
Okay, Like there is more of a force, there's more of a.
I can see that. I can definitely see that, esecially as time went on. You know. But but you know, this is I think I thought it was a really worthwhile conversation.
So I completely agree.
I completely agree, and I'm really interested to.
Hear what our listeners think about Yes for sure.
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please do that. You know, our ratings are kind of dipping down into the little four point five range, you know, like we need some of our five star fans to leave us some ratings over there, everybody, right, So too many of them people out there who like, listen to one episode and I you know, you know, Greta says something weird and they're like like her. Actually they never complained about her. The always complained about me, And I understand why I tried. I've tried to get better as
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Thanks.
I was just gonna say, I don't know, maybe we're doing something right if we got some naysayers leaving comments.
I mean definitely, like one of the last ones was like complaining about like you know, it was yeah, it was some like, you know, complaint about how we're like injecting Christianity into all this.
We've heard that before.
Oh well, I'm just like, oh, thank you. Let's talk about that, right, Yeah, you know, I'll make another video on that topic and you can watch it. There you go, right, yay, all right, it's good.
To ruffle some feathers now and.
Then as long as you're uffling the right feathers.
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
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