Silmarillion 2025 » Ch 12 » Of Men

back in twenty twenty two. While you're listening, check out Silmguide dot com. That's Silmguide dot com for guides to individual chapters. You can find that link in the show notes. To support our work here, please visit Patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to The Tolkien Road, Episode two ninety one. Greta, you ready for a manly discussion?

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at the end of May. So thank you for understanding it, guess, thank you, all right. Tolkien Quote of the Week. So early in chapter twelve, which would be the chapter that we are currently in, to Hilldorian, there came no Vala to guide men, or to summon them to dwell in valen Or. And men have feared the Valor rather than love them, and have not understood the purpose of the powers, being at variance with them and at strife with the world.

So yeah, I thought that was a interesting little thought that the Vala did not really aid men when they awoke, and as they did the elves.

men and the Valar, and much more. And as with each episode, we won't be covering every detail of this chapter, but instead doing our best to hit the high points and unpack interesting and important details. If we miss something, you guys want to discuss more, let us know. So timeline, where are we on the timeline of the Middle Earth history? So using the War the Jewels here, which is the

eleventh volume of the History of Middle Earth series. This particular chapter really is dated to Year of the Sun one, which is Year of the Trees fifteen hundred. So, as we will learn shortly, this is the moment at which Middle Earth history is broken off from the from counting in terms of the year of the Trees, years of the Trees to the years of the Sun. Right, so we kind of begin a new timeline. It's almost like a BCAD thing, okay, except just not like counting down

BC two AD. It's like just one group of years of numbering sequences and then it starts a new one. So this is Year of the Trees fifteen hundred slash Year of the Sun one. So there you go.

ten years of the sun. So a year of the sun is one tenth roughly of a year of the trees. So yeah, So with this rising of the Sun we meet men. And it says that they awaken in kind of the far east, the eastward regions of Middle Earth,

in a land called hill Dorian. Right, So I was thinking about this name, and it turns out, well, Hill Dorian probably just means the land of the followers, right, So, because it says just after this we're gonna get to the names here, but it says that men were one of their names given to them by the Eldar were the Hilldor, right, the followers, and this is hill in right, So land the followers. Yeah, it's in the far east. And of course initially they experienced the sun rising in

the west, right. We talked about that last chapter, this phenomenon of the sun rising in the west initially, and so they're drawn, they're drawn westward, initially towards you know, really towards Vaalin or Okay, and and they wander over the earth, you know, for some period of time. Now, as far as their names go, I'm gonna read this one, Greta, because I know you you struggle with the namings as do I, and not great at it. But you know, I know you you're always like.

and what do they mean? The Atani. They were named by the Eldar, the second people, but they called them also Hildor, the followers, and many other names apan Onnar, the afterborn, Ngwar, the sickly, and Fierimar, the mortals, and they named them the Usurpers, the strangers and the inscrutable, the self cursed, the heavy handed, the night fears, the children of the Sun. So it strikes me that most of these names are not really like very friendly names.

They're complimentary, they're not They're kind of derogatory. Yeah, yeah, what do you think?

names like the Adine right are somewhat derivative of Atani, right. So, and that's not I mean, they were technically the second people, right they you know, it's not necessarily now again, if that becomes a classism thing or like a you know, pecking order kind of thing that can be a problem. But but you know, in one sense they are like it's like, you know, just one generation comes after the other.

One group of one group of people came after the other group of people, right, so they were the second people in that sense. Yeah, so anyway, but we definitely detect I think the takeaway here is we detect a very solid, a very strong theme of elves tending to look down upon men. Right, in general, It's not always true, but in general yep. So all right, well what of this? So we alluded to earlier, this issue of the men and the valal Aur and how they relate to one another.

So what's going on here? Greta? Maybe you can give this paragraph? All right? Yeah, this passage here read for us.

came often to them by stream and flood. But they have not skill in such matters, and still less had they in those days before they had mingled with the elves. Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred,

but they understood not the messages. Yet it is told that ere long they met dark elves in many places, and were befriended by them, And men became the companions and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk, wanderers of the Elvin race, who never set out upon the paths to Eleanor and knew of the Valar only as a rumor and a distant name.

And you know, I really loved this idea. Well, and I should say this, We got a little credit to Manway because it says that Alma was aiding the counsel and will of Manway, so it's they were sending messages to them, but it says it came by stream, by stream and flood. Yeah, and they weren't really capable of understanding these men.

or something like that. Like, you know, it's a piece, it's a it's a peaceful place to be. It puts you in a different mindset. It does make you feel And this is really just kind of an ambiguous thing to say, but it just makes me feel more spiritual when I'm close to the sea, right, and even close to just a body of water, you know, you go out in the nature, close to a river or.

not to not to go towards valan Or. But they nevertheless have been living a long time, and so they're able to teach men some things and to offer them some friendship. Right now. Fortunately, more Goth, because of the sun, is held at bay, and he's not able to maybe come down as hard on the attani on Men as he would like to. I'm gonna go ahead and read

this first paragraph here. More Goth had then not long come back into Middle Earth, and his power went not far abroad, and was moreover checked by the sudden coming of great light. There was little peril in the lands and hills, and there new things devised long ages before in the thought of Yavana and sown his seat in the dark came at last to their budding and their bloom.

West north and south. The children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green, but the dawn is brief, and the day full often belies its promise. And now the time drew on to the great wars and the powers of the North, when Noldor and Sindhar and men strove against the hosts of Morgoth

Bauglier and went down down in Ruin. To this end the cunning lives of Morgoth, that he sowed of old and sowed ever anew among his foes, and the curse that came of the slang at al Kualande and the oath a fan or wherever at work. So just that kind of foreshadows the rest of what's we're going to learn about in the Selmer Alien and these these great wars of the of the North. I really really just love this, uh this line here. But the dawn is

brief and the day full often belies its promise. Right, it kind of goes with what came the paragraph before, end of paragraph before. Their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green, but the dawn is brief, and the day full often belies its promise. I feel like that's every day of my life.

Because I feel like they kind of come into I'm not sure exactly when they come into the picture in terms of the timeline because I haven't gotten there yet, but I feel like it's it's only a couple of hundred years, and so I'm like, how many men could there have been by then, right, unless they started with unless there was already like a lot that existed and they all woke together. Right. So that's an interesting question

of itself. And I'm not sure if Tolkien it us is that anywhere I can't remember if maybe there's something of that in the nature of Middle Earth, But I do think that's an interesting question. I'm just not equipped to answer it right now. Do you understand, like, do you understand my conundrum or my what I'm wondering about there? Greta Um.

more likely there. Well, it just seems like there are because when we get into later chapters in the Silmarllion, it seems like there's lots of men fighting, right, And there's not only lots of men helping the elder, but there's lots of more men fighting against them, right, So you know, it just makes me think, yeah, it just makes me wonder about that. But it's it's it's probably

not entirely relevant to this. It is something though that I feel like Tolkien himself would have struggled with his own mythology trying to think about how does this all add up? Right? Could it be that anyway? I don't know, It's kind of a rabbit trail, but just something I wanted to mention head on instead of just being like, well, this problem doesn't actually exist, but maybe, I mean, because you think about it, like, just let's just make one

generation of men, like twenty years. Okay, So it takes twenty years for a man and a woman to produce offspring, right, and in that time, let's say they have and they're you know, so you kind of do the generational math, and is that time enough for there to be thousands and thousands of men face of Middle Earth?

with men. I don't know that he does like that does the same kinds of tables with men, But he definitely does those calculations with elves, and he's very specific about it, right, So it's it's kind of interesting.

the courses of time. But men were more frail, more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed, object to sickness and many ills, and they grew old and died. What maybe fall their spirits after death? The elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mondo's, But their place of waiting there is not that of the elves and mondos under Aluvatar alone, save manway knows whether they go after the time of

recollection in those silent halls beside the outer sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Baron, son of Barahir, whose hand had touched the silmarill. But he never spoke afterward to mortal men. The fate of men after death maybe is not in the hands of the valarm nor was all foretold in the music of the ininorm.

I first thing that I find really interesting is how Tolkien sort of describes the fading of the elves, right, that there's this idea that even now the elves were still young in the grand scheme of their life span, which is immortality, it should be immortality, which is really to say, it's the lifespan of the Earth, right, it's the lifespan of Arta itself. Even though they can die if they're slain, but they do fade over time, right because of the fire of their spirit, right, it consumes

them from within the course of time. And that's why, you know, I guess according to the Tolkienian mythology here that elves they still exist right in the scheme, Like if you're thinking in terms of like how Tolkien views the world here, right and in viewing Middle Earth is kind of a mythological prehistory of our world, right, that

these these elves still exists as fairies. But they're like these faded spirits now, right, they're these like they they're so faded that they almost like don't have bodies anymore, right, But they're just kind of these like spirits that exist out there, right because they're their bodies have been consumed by the fire of their spirit. Right, yep. So it's an interesting little little thought there. But men are more frail, uh, they're more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less

easily healed, ain't that the truth? And subject to many sickness and ment to sickness and many ills, and they grow old and die. But ultimately men are this mystery. We don't They don't know what happens to men. The elves don't know. They wonder if maybe they go to a separate part of the halls of Mondos, but it's not really it's not really known. The fate of men is just simply not known. And it was not foretold in the music of the ire so.

came back from the dead. I think this chapter, this chapter again, you know, it's not really the only kind of thing it does to advance the plot is just tell us that, yeah, men awaken in the year, in this first year of the Sun and it but it kind of provides some background before we jump into you know, like there's this dividing line in the film Million, right, it's the the first half is all about what happens in the Blessed Realm among the Valar and eventually with

the elder an event in the big catastrophe, there is the destruction of the two Trees, and then we have then noldor fleeing, you know, chasing more more Goth to Balarion.

And then the second half of the selmarally is going to be all about the wars of against more Goth, right, the wars against more Goth back in Bealarion, right, and this is some stage setting for that, Okay, it's you know, it's a little bit of foreshadowing and just kind of giving us an idea of where men came from, and they're actually not going to come into the picture even for a couple more chapter chapters in terms of the actual story arc. So yeah, all right, Greta, would you

like to Oh no, you read the last one. Reads It's all you last paragraph here. And this is of the relationship of men and elves. And after days when because of the triumph of Morgoth, elves and men became estranged, as he most wished, those of the Elvin race that lived still in Middle Earth waned and faded, and men usurped the sunlight. Then the Quindi wandered in the lonely places of the great lands and the isles, and took to the moonlight and the starlight, into the woods and caves,

becoming as shadows and memories save those who ever. And Anon set sail into the west and vanished from Middle Earth. But in the dawn of years, elves and men were allies and held themselves akin. And there were some among men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar and became great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor. And in the glory and beauty of the elves, and in their fate full share had the offspring of elf and mortal Rindil and Elwing and Elrond their child, and el rose disgusting.

though I don't know. Yeah, So just to you know, to say that once again, reiterate this idea that like kind of now elves, the elves that remained behind in our in our midst are faded and we almost like imperceptible, which I again, I really love this idea because I think this is Tolkien's way of explaining just all these like you know, the weird phenomena we might feel in different you know, kind of different places and that kind of thing, right, like you know, there's some other presence here,

you know, for good or for ill. Right, this is one way of explaining that like kind of the you know, and you think about like kind of lore of ancient England, of England going back a long time, and just kind of these ideas of like various fairies like inhabiting the

woods and that kind of thing, Like what are these creatures. Well, Tolkien's idea here that they're just these beings that once were like men, but now they've kind of faded, right, And unless they traveled back to you know, the Blessed Rome, they've faded and they just kind of exist as these shadowy beings in you know, in our midst And but once upon a time, the best of men and the best of elves fought together hand in hand against the dark Lord, right, And that's really what we're going to

learn about, and the rest of the Silmar Alien. That's what these last twelve chapters from chapter thirteen to chapter twenty four are really concerned with. Are the great legends of men and elves fighting against Morgoth for the sake of the freedom of Balerion and of and of trying somehow to get those summarles from him.

those cases, right. The Valar obviously weren't successful with all the elves, and the ld R were not successful with all men, right, but with some they were some they were, so.

the elder were meant to lay the groundwork. And and I think this also Tolkien doesn't direct doesn't address it directly in this chapter, but I do think there this is showing us again that sense that that this is, this is a story that all of Middle Earth is kind of this exploration of like mortality and what it means as men that were mortal, even though we have this seeming immortal spark within each one of us, Right, that there is this, this hunger, an ache, and thirst

for immortality. Yeah, within each one of us as men? Why is that there? Right? What are we made for? And you know, my my working thesis in it all is just that Tolkien was exploring that through all of these stories, and so do without what you will? Well, this is a short chapter, indeed, and that's about all I have to say about that. Yeah, okay, all right, Well, do you want to do some haiku your Yeah, let's do some all right, here we go, right, darn it, mister.

here we go, Here we go? All right? This is from Samuel P. Enough David Bowie, So from Samuel P. Men of the First Age, the hilldor frail lost, deceived nomad's leave their home, nice ski stuff, and Samuel says the deceived part comes from Authorbeth Finrod Andreath and Morgth's Ring, where Andreath is telling King Finrod of the dark past of men, how they were deceived and led astray by more Goth in their prehistory. So there you go, which

I cannot wait to discuss that. That is going to be a very interesting work to discuss, especially after we finished the Silmarillion, you know this time. Yeah, we'll probably get to that. I expect to get to that later this year. That's been a long one coming, but it is definitely on the short list of things to get too soon. Authorbeth Finrod Andreath, right, the dialogue.

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