Who is Tom Bombadil. In all of the Middle Earth legendarium, there is no other figure as puzzling and strange. From his interactions with Old Man Willow to his relationship with the One Ring, Tom proves he is one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth. But where did he come from and what is his significance for the larger story? Join us as we explore the Bombadil Enigma. The Tolkien Road, Episode two sixteen, The Bombadil Enigma, An interview with Keith Matheson. Hello, everyone,
Welcome to The Tolkien Road Episode two sixteen. Greta, Hey, how are you.
Hey, John? I'm I'm super fantastic. How are you?
I am doing pretty darn well.
That's good.
Excited for another amazing episode of The Tolkien Road, The podcast for Tolkien lovers, ravenous Tolkien fan all you tolkienkers.
No, we're not gonna do that again. We're not doing that again.
That's my thing. This is the podcast for Tolkien lovers right here, So all you people who are like, oh yeah, Tolkien, I like me a Tolkien story every now and then.
M M.
You gotta be utterly devoted, slavishly devoted to Tolkien to be worthy of listening to this podcast.
Okay, you can stop playing down now we're we've established the fact that you're a Tolkien nerd. But we welcome all here. All are welcome.
Well you okay, you know I never should have fired you for this job. I can't get rid of you.
You can fire me anytime.
No, it's impossible. People would stop listening.
They would stop listening. You know, you'd be nothing without me. No, true?
Maybe Okay, on this episode we are. On this episode, we were joined by Keith Matheson. Earlier this year, Keith published an article on his blog entitled The bombadill Enigma. It's a fascinating exploration of what we know about Tom Bombadil, and Keith's theory on the meaning of Tom Bombadil is one we think you'll find very interesting.
I found it very interesting.
Yeah, absolutely, I.
Mean honestly, like you know, there I enjoy. I enjoy being the other half of this podcast. I really do. But there are yes, I stand up for the tolkienkers out there. You're welcome. I will say that that. You know, there are some episodes that you know, like they're fine, they're good, like it was you know, not a complete waste of my time to be a part of it. But this episode, like y'all have to listen so good. Tom Bombadil is like he's fascinating in so many ways,
and Keith knows what he's talking about. H. So y'all best tune in.
Absolutely, Yeah it was. We pre recorded the interview. It's a very It was a highly highly enjoyable discussion Keith. We really enjoyed h chatting with Keith, and we think you'll enjoy it too.
Yeah, so for sure.
Special thanks to this episode's executive producer, Caitlin of Ta with Tolkien, and a shout out to all of our amazing patrons. Thank you all so much for supporting this show. If you are not a patron, you should become a patron. Support us on Patreon. Becoming a patron lets you support the show in a tangible way and lands you some awesome perks like early access to new episodes and more. Head on over to patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road to find out the deats, and you can also support
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news as of late, so maybe that's good. Well, I think we just you know, a couple episodes we probably single handedly convinced Latron Prime to you know, maybe rethink it all again. And you know, so I'm sure they're just back to the drawing board.
I'm sure. So, yeah, they're too busy to anything out there.
It's most likely explanations. All right, Okay, Greta, let's talk about the Bombadil enigma shall we do it? Yes, We're joined on this episode by Keith Matheson. A few months ago, Keith sent me an article he had written on Tom Bombadil, and I thought it was such a well done exploration of the character and the controversy surrounding him, that I invited Keith to join us for an episode of The Tolkien Road. Keith, welcome, Thank you, nice to have you here.
Gus, thanks for being here.
So Keith, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Well, I'm I was born and raised in Texas. I've been in Florida since nineteen ninety two, the last ten years teaching the Little Christian College in Central Florida. Have a wife, an adult daughter with a granddaughter of a son nineteen in college. I'm a Texan and a exile basically.
Gotcha, gotcha.
I've heard that you can take the Textan out of Texas, but you can't take the Texas out of the Texan we have. We have a lot of friends from Texas and this just sticks.
With them absolutely absolutely. Well, tell us about your journey as a Tolkien fan. We always whenever we have anybody on, we always want to hear you know, before we talk about the substance of why we're having them on. You know, we we we're a fan. We're really a fan focused
podcast first and foremost, and you know ravenus fans. So I think I can tell from some of the things you know for this article and from some of the other things that you've written, that you you seem to be a pretty fit that profile pretty well of being a ravenus Tolkien fan. So tell us about your your journey as a Tolkien fan.
Keith, I am a Ravenus fan. I was a late comer to Tolkien. We didn't have a lot of books in my house growing up, but we had we had an encyclopedia set, and for some reason, we had the complete work to Edgar Allen Poe. So I was either reading the encyclopedia articles or giving myself nightmares. I first encountered Tolkien's writings. I remember walking through bookstores back when I was a teenager and young adult and seeing Tulkien in the section and seeing that title The Lord of
the Rings. But for some reason, it never clicked to me that I should read that. And then I don't remember why I first picked that book up, but I brought The Lord of that Rings home one day and decided I wanted to read this and just started reading it and quickly fell in love with it, and almost immediately re read the whole thing. And I just remember this book hitting me harder than almost any other fiction
book did. It really hit me in the heart. And I just fell in love with it and began reading more and more in Tolkien's works, and finally I read The Hobbit for the first time as an adult. Came to that after The Lord of the Rings on the Filmarellion stard to look at other smaller works of Tolkien.
Just got more and more involved. And then the movies, of course came out in the e in two thousand and one or so, I think that was the first one two thousand and one, and I went and saw those have a love hate relationship with them.
And then.
A few years ago I had the opportunity the students petition, since I knew what a rabid Tolkien fan I was. The students at my little college petition the administration can if they could have a Tolkien class, and so I was asked to teach them their great works in Tolkien. And I'm not a Tolkien scholar, but it was just basically a big classroom of pains with me leading the fan discussion. And then I was asked again this year
if I would do it. So I'm in the middle of that class again this semester and learned a little bit more about it. But I've just I fell in love with Tolkien maybe twenty years ago, I think I encountered to me in my late twenties or early thirties, have just been pursuing reading secondary sources, finally started working on the history of Middle Earists and things like that, and yeah, just a little bit more and more every time I read it.
Well, if you're not a if you're not a Tolkien scholar, Keith, and you sure do you sure do a good job of faking it. So yeah, yeah, well, I I feel like that's how a lot of you know, a lot. I feel like there's a lot of people who are maybe like you know, I know. In my case, uh, you know, I've written two books on Tolkien, and but I never can feel like I'm worthy of calling myself a Tolkien scholar because it just seems like no nobody
really matches up to that that description. I think it feels like being like the true sense of being like a scholar, in the sense of like if you're going to be you're more like just a constant student, you know, just trying to better learn what he was all about and what he wrote.
Well, I when I say Tolkien scholar, I'm the people in my mind where people like Tom Shippy and Wayne Hammond and yeah, Christina Skull.
There are definitely a few. There are definitely a few that are you know of a of a higher tier for sure. So but but yeah, like I said, you do a based on based on just this article alone, you do a pretty a pretty good job of faking it. So well, uh great, that's uh, that's interesting. So you Lord of the Rings was first for you, and then and then the Hobbit sometime later, and then and then
the silm Rellion and all other things. Yeah, so very cool, cool, all right, Well, Keith, what inspired this article on Tom Bombadil.
Well, the first time I read Lord of the Rings, Tom Bombadil just stood out as odd. It was just a really really odd thing. Even that it wasn't very far into the book. But when you run into him, he just he destrikes you as an unusual character. And then it moves back into this deep medieval type fantasy at the end, and there's nothing else quite like him in that whole book. And so I just I became intrigued by him the first time I read the book, and every time I read it, I was more and
more intrigued. And the more I learned about Middle Earth and the whole the all the creatures and types of beings that exist in Middle Earth, the questions started to rise in my mind what is he? And what is he? And that's when I started doing searches for articles online and elsewhere to see has anybody else thought about this? And I just ran across so many theories about who and what he was. And it's just been kind of
a hobby, I guess you would call it. It's it's like a fun little mystery to puzzle to.
It's like a subcategory of Tolkien scholarship. Is Bombadolology, I think so?
And so I've been just fascinated with all the various theory is out there for the last two decades and
more recently when I prepared to write this. What what caused me to write this was for a long time, I was just interested in this and I had noticed certain things, and I know we'll talk about that a little bit more, but I guess it was about six months ago something clicked and it hit me that all these pieces started to come together when I ran across this one little item that in my mind turned a lot of circumstantial evidence into potentially something more.
Significant, very interesting. Yeah, well, well let's let's let's dive into your article. Your article is entitled let's see I had it pulled out. There we go, the Bombadilla Enigma. I thought it was the Bombadilla Enigma, and then I saw something else. So yeah, we're really focused on this character,
Tom Bombadil and the enigma. I can't think of a I can't think of a character in all of Tolkien and all of Tolkien Dumb and all of Middle Earth, the Middle Earth legendarium, who is more more enigmatic than Tom Bombadil, you know, Tom Bombadil is. And so in this article you're exploring that. You warn at the beginning that you're gonna be engaging in some moderate to severe Tolkien. Nerdidis here. So uh, it's so this but this is the place for some you know, for the severe form
of Tolkien. Nerdidis. You know for sure, So all of that is welcome here. So, you know, you start out by introducing, you know, this figure of Tom Bombadil. And for anyone who's read The Lord of the Rings, like you said, you know, we're gonna be We're gonna be familiar with this character. Maybe some people have latched onto him as more mysterious than others people. He tends to be a character that everybody who likes Tolkien or anybody who reads The Lord of the Rings has a strong
opinion on. Some people are just like, don't even know why those three chapters are in there at all. And you know some you know, some people probably like you and me and Greta, are like, well, why didn't Peter Why didn't Peter Jackson include Tom Bombadil in in the movies at all. It's like a huge problem with you know, with his version of fellowship. So you have this big spectrum of people when it comes to, you know, opinions
of Tom Bombadil. But he is truly an enigmatic and you know, just trying to trying to figure out where he comes from, who he is. There's a lot going on here, and so there's been a lot of a lot of controversy about him. What do we know from the text Keith about Tom, Like, what are some of the things that that he says about himself? What are some of the things that the text says about him that gold Goldberry says about him? And we also got to just talk about Goldberry as a figure as well.
And what an awesome name too. I mean, there's this they're fantastic character.
Both of them are in the ratic. You really have to treat the two together. I think the first thing that's noticeable about Tom is the singing. That's the first thing that seems to strike you when they first encounter him, that they hear him before they see him, and they hear this singing and it's the somewhat nonsensical type of song. It reminds me a lot of the elves songs the first time you encounter them in the Hobbit Trolo Alali down in the Valley, type of silly syllables, and it's
throughout the dealings with Tom. In the initial encounter he's either singing or even when he's speaking, it's a very rhythmic, almost song like prose when he's speaking, but he has a strange combination of characteristics. His height is described somewhere between. It's about the size of a dwarf, I think, because he's taller than a Hobbit shorter than an so he's dwarf sized. His clothing is just unusual because of the
bright colors. He has a feather in his cap like Hobbit sheriffs, and you know whether that's significant or not, I don't know. But he sings like the elves, the silly touch songs in the Hobbit things. He has powers that are really what is the most enigmatic thing about him, because despite all of the strangeness, it's the effect or non effect of the ring on him that really strikes most readers. This ring. Gandalf doesn't even want to touch it. He doesn't want anything to do with it. We know
he's very powerful. Gladrial same issue. Tom is playing with this thing like it's a toy. Puts it on his finger, he doesn't disappear. When Frodo puts it on, he can still see proto it doesn't affect that. And so I think that's what really gets people's interests started in him. Is the is the influence or lack of influence of that ring such a hu thing in this whole story, influencing everybody else. And then they start to the hobbits start to ask these questions. Proto asked Goldberry who is he?
He is? And sometimes I when I'm reading that, I hear him saying, who is Tom Bombadil? And he is, but that that answer has caused people to write his questions about is he deity of some kind?
Yeah, and just having like a similarity to like in in scriptural terms, I am who am as the you know what, how God refers to himself and in the Book of Exodus.
Right that Exodus passage, I am has That's caused some people to latch onto that. And then she's repeats He's master, Woodwater and Hill, He's master, He's master. And then of course when when Frodo asks who he is, he one of the most enigmatic answers in the whole thing. Who are you master? Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer? Tell me who are you?
Alone?
Yourself and name? Listen, I'm still wrestling with what he's getting at. Yeah, response, he starts to describe himself, and he takes himself back to the very origins of Middle Earth in his description of what he's seen and experienced. So of course then at the Council of Elrond gammed off and all the elves have commidents about him. But his characteristics are all over the place, something from looking like a hobbit to being the size of the door,
singing like an elf. And then all these enigmatic words by him and about him.
Yeah, and the and the very you know, curious curious responses by himself and Goldberry. I mean, it just deepens the mystery. Yeah, you know, Keith, as I was listening to you speak, that the one word that that popped into my head that I felt like was really described Tom Mambadil was otherworldly, like he just he doesn't seem to fit in Middle Earth, Like he just he's like above it, in it, but he's not, like he's not
he's not. He's just kind of of another world, like he's just you know, it's like he's in it, but he's not in it, Like you know, he fits, but he doesn't it.
And as I was reading it, you know, I was we talked about Tom, but and then we kind of laughingly just a few minutes ago referred to Goldberry and the enigma that she is as well alongside him, And then you have old Man Willow, right, and the enigma that Old Man Willow is in the Old Forest, and the interaction between Tom and Old Man Willow, and and then you just have the Old Forest all by itself at like it is the place where they all, they
all seem to inhabit. It's almost like this is some kind of special special place, you know, within within the larger world of Middle Earth, that it's some kind of like an island, like it's like strange Garden of Eden or something like that.
Yeah, yeah, not quite.
Not not exactly paradise, but you know, like but you know, like a maybe kind of twisted paradise or something. I don't know, but uh, I.
Think people like Joseph Pearce have picked up on that. Yeah, when he connects Bombadilla and Goldberry was unfallen.
Right, would you explain why the Ring doesn't have an effect on him? Right? I mean, they're they're immune to the effects of of fallen man of the you know, the results of the fall. So there's yeah, there's yeah.
I mean the Ring is is certainly the most startling, like his his relationship with the ring is is certainly the most startling thing about him, the thing that stands out, uh the most. And then you have because nobody, nobody has that reaction to the ring within within the whole story. I mean, you can argue that some of the you know, maybe the eagles wood or the ense wood or something like that, but but they never it never really comes up for them, like it never really comes up for those,
you know, for those types of beings. But yeah, Tom is just there's no effect, you know, it's it does not it's not even a it's not even a scary thing for him. It's just kind of like this is nothing to me, you know, for everybody else that's everything. So uh yeah, and at the Council of elrond Is you mentioned, he's also you know, he's given some interesting
names as well. Uh you mentioned in your article he's known at For example, he's called by the elves as yottawayne ben Adaar, meaning oldest and fatherless, which is also one of those names that just leads you to think, like who is this right?
You know, especially it becomes even more curious when you run into tree Beard and he's calling himself the oldest living thing and others are saying that about world, who's the oldest.
Well, and then and speaking of tree Beard because of the effect that that makes me think of the effect that Tom has on old Man Willow right. And you know, old Man willow seeming to be this you know tree that is somehow animated right in a more human like way. It seems to have more of a personality than your average tree. And that of course makes us think of the ends, and and so you know, is there some kind of relationship between them? And then Tom Bombadil has
that power over old Man Willow Right. He has the power to basically command Old Man willow.
I haven't seen anybody write. I'm sure somebody has, but I haven't run across anybody writing anything substantive relating horizing that maybe Tom is related to the ants in some way, but there are similarities there both of them. Are these in the story, these singular figures within the midst of these forests. And I think, if I recall correctly, Gandalf, it's the very last, or at least Obamba did in the book says something about tree Beard and the nts when he says he's going to go talk to.
Him but yeah.
It's just it's another he's similar to dwarves, me and hobbits at hells of all are my rs unite it. There's he's a mixture of everything, it seems like, or at least somewhat. He has similarities with everything.
Yeah, but he and know what, he seems above them because he's master. So it's a it's an interesting combination, absolutely sure.
Well, so Keith. One of the best one of the best things about your article is that you do a really uh great job of going through and talking about some of the very theories, right, some of the like I would say, you probably catalog anything that anybody's come up with, you know, for the most part. You know, I'm sure maybe there's some other because there's been so much ink spilled on this that there's other little ones
out here, like very slight variations on certain theories. But you know, walk us through some of these theories that others have suggested to explain who Tom is and where he comes from.
Well, as we were talking about earlier, there have been those who have suggested that he is God incarnate, Ahru incarnate in some way, the omnipotent supreme being in the Legendarium. Some have suggested that he's He and Goldberry. Are you know, among the the lare that, And the most common theory is Ala and Yvanna, that they are Tom and Goldberry in disguise, or ala is in disguise and Tom and
Vana is in disguise in Goldberry. And there was a time several years ago where I really thought that might be the best answer to this. I'm much less convinced of that. I think there's more serious problems with that. Some like Robert Foster in his Little Dictionary, suggested he's one of the Mayor, and you find that theory in
various forms out there. Some have pointed out that in the print version of the Silmarillion, the published Simarillion, as well as some of the earlier versions of it, Tulkien mentions other types of spiritual beings who came into Middle Earth along with the Vallar and the Mayar. And there's been a number of variations on that of different types of spiritual beings, And in the earlier writings in the Lost Road and Things, he lifts a large number of
those kinds. That gets narrowed down by the time you get to the published simarillion, as you know, but it still opens the door to other types of spiritual beings. A nature spirit has been a common theory and that I think similar. It's a branch of that previous one, and that goes all the way back to a letter he wrote in nineteen thirty seven when he's talking about
the original poems regarding Tom Bombadil. Some of the more recent theories that I've seen become a little more abstract, where some have suggested he's the incarnation of Arda, that he is an incarnation of Earth itself, and that ends up being rooted and some things said about him at the Council of Elron tying him to the power of
the earth itself. And then there's a fascinating theory that he's an incarnation of the music of the imor that is tied in with the predominance of singing that's related to him. Then there have been some more what I would call breaking of the fourth wall type theory is where some of the theory that he's tolking himself I've seen mentioned in communists before, but I've never seen a full blown article about it. I'm sure one's out there.
Others that are like that. Some have said that Tom represents the reader or the audience of the story, and I've seen at least one presentation of that that's enormous, really long, and one of the strangest theories I've run across. And I've only seen one blog post, really your website, arguing this is that he's not a good guy, that he's actually an evil spirit and he's waiting for the downfall of Saloon.
I was shocked when I read that in your article. I was like, really, there's somebody that thinks that, and I think you do a pretty good job of refuting refuting that.
I think that's among the easily refutable theories.
I suppose somebody had to suggest that, you know, possibility, but it's in there. Yeah, it just doesn't seem to hold much water at all.
And I'm not one hundred percent sure if that website isn't tongue in cheek, I can't quite tell. With it satire, yeah, but I think some people might take it seriously. So I just mentioned it just cars. And of course there are those who say that Tolkien put him in there and he's deliberately an enigma that's unsolvable.
Wow, those are They're all like as I was reading through them, I kind of, you know, I would read one of like, oh that yeah, I was kind of thinking about that, and then you mentioned something I was like, oh, yeah, well that makes sense too. And then and then we got to the one about it possibly being Tolkien, and I was like, oh, yeah, that's what I want it to be. That's the one I was rooting for. I was like, I loved that idea, like a cameo in his own legendarium.
Well, let's talk about that one for a second. And you know, I think I think you spoke about this and you referred to you made a connection to this and Leaf by Niggle, if if memory service right, So tell us a little bit about that.
Well, I don't in my opinion, I don't think Tom represents Tulkien, but I wanted to just say that I don't think you can rule it out as impossible like the evil bad guy theory, because of something like Leaf by Niggle, where you do seem to have talking at least playing with the possibility of entering into this subcreated
world after death. In Leaf Biden Niggle, it's hard to tell whether he's actually whether Niggle's entering into his own subcreation or whether in the afterlife God has created this thing for him to enter into. It's a little fuzzy, but he seems to play with that, and who could blame him. You know, he spent his whole life creating this amazing world with so much beauty in it as well as danger. But the thought of him wanting to enter into it, I don't think it is beyond the
realm of possibility. But when he in his letters, when he does talk about any character being most like him, I think pharam Her is the one he most closely relates himself to, which is why I don't think it's Tom Bombadill is Tolkien, but I don't will it completely out. I could see him with a twinkle in his eye, playing that kind of joke on his.
Sure, yeah, yeah, well it's I think that's that's that. Let kind of leads us into the next, you know portion of your article where you speak about the history of Tom Bombadil not just as a figure in the history of Middle Earth, but but as a as a creation of Tolkien's right, is this is this storytelling figure that that goes that predates even even the Hobbit and a lot of the stories of the legendary. So you know, this was a figure that existed outside of Middle Earth
for Tolkien for a long time. So tell us a little bit about.
That, right, And I think that does play a large part in what you were saying earlier about him singing kind of otherworldly, because he existed in a non Middle Earth world prior to the writing of The Hobbit and so forth he wrote. As you know, Tolkien wrote stories for his children. We see the Little Rover random story about the Lost Dog, just beautiful and fun little story the Hobbits originally written or perhaps poorly told to his
children before it goes into print. And these poems about Tom Bondbabill that are written that already include Goldberry and Old Man Willow and the Barrel White. That little world already exists before he writes The Hobbit, before it, long before he writes Word of the Rings. So it's it's already there, but it's not part of the legendarium. It's a separate thing like the Father Christmas Letters or Rob Randon or some of the other little short fictional stories he wrote.
Tom I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead, I was just going to ask a quick clarific clarification question. Now, this was a poem. Is that correct that Tom Bombadil first appeared in Is that was his? Did I read that correctly?
Or no?
Was he in a story?
That original version, the Little Story of Tom Bombasa was written in poetic form.
Gotcha? Okay? So it was a story, not a poem, but it was a story written in poetic form Where Bombado first appeared?
Is that correct?
Okay? Okay? Yeah, I didn't. I did not realize that I hadn't earlier than that, So I did not even realize that he was created, you know, so much before it.
Was nineteen It was published in nineteen thirty four, okay, The Adventures of Tom Bombadill And oh gotach? Okay. His son has a little doll with this clothing and colors of Tom Bombadill, and he writes this billy, kind of fun childlike poem story about this character that is his
son's doll. Later, after The Lord of the Rings is published, he writes some additional poems and then publishes all that together kind of draws it into the legendarium by making it part of the Red Book of West March and selections out of it written by Okay.
Okay, yes, thank you for clarifying that I did not realize. I just didn't realize that he had a history that predated Lord of the Rings.
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, you know, it's Keith saying he's he's this figure that you know, it was kind of a a storically, it was almost like it was just a you know, kind of a playful thing with his with his kids for you know, for a long time, as so much of the Legendarium, you know, began began as and then.
And then when you start reading the history of the writing of the Lord of the Rings where he basically just starts writing it soon, according to Christopher Talkien, doesn't really know where this story is going. It finds why it starts the way it does. And he says in a letter, and Christopher Talkien mentions this in the History of Middle Earth, that he inserts these characters he had already invented decades earlier because he needed an adventure along the way to the Hobbits.
I love that expression.
Yeah, he takes that little world of Tom Bombadill and Goldberry and the Old Man Willow and the Barrel of white Ploks. It writing the Path and the Hobbits and they walk into the old Forest and running too Tom Bombadille.
Yeah. Yeah, But you also make the comment that that that's not the only place that Bombadell appears in Lord of the Rings. I mean, he keeps kind of his name keeps popping up throughout throughout the books, and even at the end, you know, there's a dream that that Freda remembers having had it, you know, at Bombadill. So it's not it's not like that's an isolated those three chapters are not. They're not like a standalone kind.
Of Yeah, it's not. It's not an easy break between them like they he you know, he's definitely spoken of at the Council of Elrond, you know, a good bit and he's he's actually proposed is let's just give the ring to Tom. Let's just give the ring to Tom because it apparently has no effect on him, and maybe it'll just be safe, you know, maybe it'll just be safe until you know, until the end of the world there, right.
But and and that that actually serves to refute the idea that he is and that he's like a Louvatar or even a valor, because they their basics response is well, yes, it'll probably be safe there, safer than it would be in a lot of places. But eventually even Tom will succumb to you know, will succumb to Suron.
Right, right, And and I think more than one of them say the Ring has no power over him, but he has no power over the Ring, right, which I think that rules out, you know, the god figure in the Middle Earth legends, because surely the creator would have power over the Creator.
Yeah, exactly exactly, But he's.
He has mentioned a few other times, not a lot, but in Shilob's lair, Sam, I'm not sure which Tom was here. And the fascinating thing there is immediately after that statement, they remember the little vial of light that the lady will give him. And then of course at the end with Gandalf, he's going to talk to him.
I've been looking everywhere to see if that statement about he's a he's a stone gathering moss, and I've been a rolling stone if there's anything anywhere that would tie that in the a clue, but haven't found anything yet. And then, of course, when as you were saying, when Proto finally crosses the sea into the west. That vision that he describes is echoes the dream he'd had in the house of.
Yeah.
Yeah, well we've we've gone through all of the other other theories that have been proposed, and you, uh, you spend a little time, I'll say this before we dive into to your particular theory that that you put forward in this article. You you spend a little time with some of these other theories, and you you you divide them up into basically two types of two types of theories and talking about them, right.
Uh, I just for the psych of classification, I divided them into theories where Tom breaks the fourth wall. Those would be theories such as he is Tolkien or the Reader or the audience that brings the outside world into Middle Earth. And the other type of theories are those where Tom exists entirely within Middle Earth itself. So that's just an easy way for me to remember the different times.
Sure to group them together, because I mean we listed off ten or eleven, you know, different different variations, and so it helps to group them right like that. And I wanted to say, just in case there are those who aren't familiar with that idea of breaking the fourth Wall. I'm sure many listeners are, but there's probably some who aren't. Basically, what I think what you're describing, Keith, is this idea that sometimes in a story a character will will speak
to the like, speak to the audience. That's kind of like the most well known way where it's just like you're like watching a movie and then all of a sudden, it's like everything's happening in kind of the three dimensional world of the movie, and then all of a sudden, one of the characters turned towards turns towards you and the audience and starts speaking to you directly, right, Ferris.
Bueller's Day Off, Deadpool, those type of movies where the audience is constantly being brought into this and in some ways it's breaking the illusion and playing with that. You know, they step out of the Ferris Mueller stepped out of his little world and addresses you, Deadpool stepped out of the Marvel universe and addresses the audience, And that kind of thing almost be like a stage man becoming part of a play.
Yeah right, yeah, and uh and and so this would be something very like like you're basically saying, like with the theory that he's Tolkien, or the theory that he is actually the reader or the audience that would be these kind of fourth wall breaking the fourth wall types of theories right.
Where somewhere our world breaks into the world of Middle Earth intersects with it.
Yes, gotcha, gotcha? So well, let's let's talk about what you put forward is your theory. So you spend a good kind of you spend a lot of time dealing with other people's theories and tracing the history of this of this character. Now, but you have you have, you know, a unique take on this, and so tell us about that.
I'm so can I give you a time out super quick? I just wanted to back up a teeny bit because one thing I really appreciated about your article, Keith, was how you mentioned a lot of the letters that you brought in, a lot of letters that Tolkien himself had written and things that he specifically said about Bombadil, and I was curious if there is I feel like after I read through those, I was like, well, that's clear as mud now, thanks Tolkien. Like I've like, we've just
complicated the issue further, We've done nothing cleared up. But I was just wondering because I know you mentioned a lot of letters, but was there just one particular one that kind of, you know, made a special impact on you, or one that kind of helped you further kind of develop your own theory per se.
I think the first one that had me start thinking about this with I believe it's letter one forty four when he says he basically identify as Tom with a vow of poverty, renouncing control, taking delight in things for themself, and then he mentions that Tom's representing a natural pacifist. You vow of poverty and pacifism, and is what immediately
started the wheels turning in my mind. But it wasn't enough for me to really think that's not conclusive because in other letters he said to represent it and embody other things, but based on knowing a little bit of church history, that got the wheels turning. The other letter that was very significant for what I ended up doing was one that's not found in his published letters, but one that's found in The Lord of the Rings Reader's
Guide edited by Hammond and Skull. That it wasn't what got me started, but it was a major piece of the puzzle. So those were the two I think that started. And then the one where he says a letter one two when he says, the Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work, unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision, and that the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
All of these comments he's making in these letters were coming together in my mind and really influenced the direction my thought was taking on this and where I went it.
Yeah, very cool, Thank you.
Well, So that that leads right in then to our you know, to your theory. Right, So you've you've you've kind of hinted at some of the ideas that you that you put forward. So tell us lay it all out here for us, your theory on on maybe not exactly who Tom Bombadill is, but but how we can better understand who he is.
Yeah, I think that, you know, based on what he says in letter one for two, where he says that certain religious elements are absorbed into the story and that it's fundamentally a religious and Catholic work consciously in the revision.
Most readers know that Tolkien was devoutly Roman Catholic. But what I wanted to start exploring is I was preparing this and thinking about it was whether that had any implications for Bamba did On, And I started running across some of these things that I mentioned in the letters. Some had already read. They were just in the back
of my mind. But I think that Bambadil and Goldberry are characters that do absorb certain specific elements of Tolkien's Roman Catholic religion into them, and they represent something that I think Tolkien believed was important to represent in Middle Earth, but he couldn't do it explicitly because from the Third Age, that's thousands of years before the Christian Age, he couldn't put it in there in any explicit form. So and then that's where all these other pieces started to come
into play. The in Letter one forty four he speaks about a vow of poverty and passes, and Letter one fifty three talks about Bombadil representing a spirit coeval with the natural mind and love of nature and so forth, and Tom in the story itself, is constantly associated with music and singing. Those things immediately in my mind reminded me of the Franciscans and the Saint Francis of a sisi in the Franciscan order, because that's what that order.
And he even more specifically was known for his radical vow of poverty, his pacifism, his love of nature, and for his mary almost frivolous, jolly singing. If you read G. K. Chesterson's biography of Francis, it's hard almost it's almost hard to imagine that Tulkien didn't read that biography and have that in his head when he was writing some of this. And I think that's all a lot of circumstantial evidence. And I had just been mulling that over for years
but really not knowing what to do with it. And then the thing that finally made me think maybe I can put this into an article was when I was thinking about the use of dates in The Lord of the Rings and how the Fellowship leaves, and Joseph Pearce was one of the ones who brought this up. Where the Fellowship departs from Ribbondale on December twenty fifth in the traditional Christian obviously that's the traditional date of the
birth of Christ. The ring is destroyed on March twenty fifth, which is the traditional date of the crucifixion, and so Tolkien seems to at times being playing with these dates as ways of absorbing a religious element into the story. And I started to wonder, is there could there be
any significance to the dates associated with Tom. And I went back to a predictsbee at the end of The Lord of the Rings and looked up what it said about bombadal and in the timeline, the Hobbits meet Tom Bombadil on September twenty sixth, And that didn't spark anything
in my memory. But I went and did started digging around, and lo and behold, I found out that September twenty sixth, for a long time was the traditional date of Saint Francis's birth, and there are a number of sources out there that listed as the traditional date for his birth. So coincidence possibly, but when you take that along with all the other things, it seems like maybe there's something
more to this. In that day where they encountered him is the day of Francis with birth and all these things he says in the letter and characteristics of him that looks so much like Francis. That started to add them. And then I started looking at Goldberry, and there are interesting things there. He's always portrayed he's bringing her white lilies the first time they see him. And if you go back into the early medieval period, white lilies are
commonly used as symbols of the Virgin Mary. I've gone back and looked at all these medieval artworks, and in the medieval paintings of the Annunciation, where Gabriel is announcing to her becoming birth of Christ, there's always these pots
at her feet with white lilies in them. And you know, when you encounter Goldberry for the first time in the house of bonb the build, She's got all these lily's at her feet and Tom's bringing her more So, maybe if Tom absorbs some kind of Franciscan spirituality or Franciscan element, Goldberry perhaps and absorbs a Marian element, which might explain when Tom is just completely devoted to Mary, because that's another feature of Franciscan theology, is they are at the
top of the list in terms of devotion to marriage and then other things. I started to notice Goldberry's song as they approach the house. She's said, let's sing the song of sun stars, mean and missed raining, cloudy weather, and so forth, And it occurred to me, you know, one of Francis's most famous songs is the Canticle of the Sun, and that whole song is about sun, stars, moon and mist and so forth. Is she calling them to sing the Canticle of the Sun in some weird symbolically.
And then one of the other things that I didn't notice until very recently when I was rereading the story to for this Semester's class, is in the chapter on the Old Forest, when when Frodo and then they're walking through the forest, they're getting extremely discouraged, and then they see a hill, this treeless hill in the distance, and Tolkien describes it as rising like a bald head out of the encircling wood, and the passing to be making
directly for it. And then just a few sentutes later he says, the wood stood all around the hill like thick hair that ended sharply in a circle round a shaven crown. You know, whatever where I'm going with this, that's that medieval tonsure where the ringdo of.
Hair Francis himself.
Yeah, I'd never noticed.
That before until after I'd written this and it started thinking about this, I thought, well, okay, these hobbits are walking through this creepy old forest. They see a hill. Tolkien describes it as looking like the head of a monk. What in the world is that all about? Maybe Tom Bombadil's the answer to that question in some way. So I'm not I should make it clear. I'm not saying that Bombadil is Saint Francis, right, or I'm not saying that Goldberry is Mary or Saint Clair of the Sissy.
But I'm wondering if I'm thinking there's a possibility that these two characters are allowing Tom, allowing Tolkien to bring something in a particular type of spirituality into the story that he can't put in it explicitly, and do so in a very fun way.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I do too. You say, Tom then might be the embodiment or representative of something Tolkien believe was needed in the story, a particular aspect of Roman Catholic spirituality exemplified by the Franciscans, specifically poverty, pacifism, a love of nature, and a pension for joyful song.
Yeah.
I mean, at some point, you know, you get all these uh coincidences, right, and at some point all the coincidences start to seem kind of like some kind of conspiracy, some kind of conspiracy. Right, how many coincidences do we need to at some point say something's going on here, like some something is pointing in uh, you know, in a specific direction here. That thing about uh, the hill being the bald head, you know, the taunture is that's brilliant.
I mean, you know, and it and it does seem that's exactly how Tolkien describes it there, you know, is that that famous Francisco So Tom So Tom like lives on this tonsureed head of a hill. Basically I don't know if.
He lives on that hill, but they saw that.
Yeah, okay, yeah, and you know, the you know's the the fact of where this happens in the story, I mean makes the He makes a point of saying that they were becoming discouraged and you know, worn down, and Froto even thinks about turning around, like he's ready to throw in the towel, and then lo and behold, here comes Tom and you know, and it has a very it's definitely a source. It ends up being a source
of refreshment and encouragement to the party. And I think there's a lot of people out there who you know, who find a lot of comfort and peace, and the writings of Saint Francis, and you know, and in the different visions that are you know, operations are being married, and in just knowing what we know about Tolkien, I feel like it makes so much sense. And just where they live has a very just calming, like almost a monastic type of of feel to it.
Yeah. Absolutely, it's like a it's like a retreat house exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Keith, you're reading your article and reading this section on Saint Francis made me think one other thing, brought one other thing to mine for me. And it's a biographical note for Tolkien. Of course, his his basically father figure for his for most of his childhood was not his biological father, but it was. It was a Catholic
priest named Father Francis. And so now Father Francis was not a Franciscan, but the name Francis, if you're going to be given the name Francis after you know, after the after the existence of Saint franc of Assisi as a as a Catholic, then that name somehow harkens back to Saint Francis of Assisi. He was he was that big a role, that big a figure in the history of of Christianity. And uh so that that's just another thing that made me think, like you know, Tolkien was
it seems clear, clearer and clearer that Tolkien me. You know that Tom Bombada wasn't necessarily like created to be Saint Francis, but that he became a Franciscan figure over time and in the development of of Tolkien's own thought and writings, and and you know, and maybe in part he was also a tribute to this, you know, this man who was, you know, the father that that Tolkien, you know, the biological father, you know that the father figure that Tolkien needed and and didn't have because his
biological father passed away when he was so young.
Yeah, exactly exactly. And I feel like it also serves to support, you know, the fact that the Ring has no power over him, because we we have we have a good friend who's a Franciscan. Actually, and I still remember this one time where he was can.
I can I can I read something? I'm gonna interrupt you because I need I need to interject something here. Okay, right, So.
Here's what we're say because it's important.
I'm actually gonna mention that. So, So Keith, I wrote a I wrote a book on music, and you know, in uh, in Middle Earth, and I actually specifically wrote a chapter on Tom on Tom Bombadil in that chapter, because he has such an interesting relationship with music, and I think a couple of years ago we talked about Tom. But I mean we we went chapter by chapter through
Lord of the Rings. So I'm sure there were several chapters we it's all blur now, but we I know we had the conversation you were about to bring up about our friend here is a Franciscan friar, and that that that kind of story found its way into my book. Uh. And so I'm gonna read what I'd written here, and I think it's what or do you want to? All right?
So he says, well, I was planning on working this in and I got to work in a plug from my book, you know, even though this is about Keith and not about but but this it's from the section titled Tom versus Saron's Ring and it says, I say, perhaps it is that Tom is the embodiment of the care free song. A good number of his songs are silly,
so much so that many readers find Tom annoying. Yet he is incredibly powerful all the same, though great figures like Gandalf, Elrond and Gladriel shudder from the temptation of Suron's ring. Is Zildur's Bane has no effect on Tom? How can this be? In a nineteen fifty four letter to Naomi Mitchison, Tolkien elaborated on Tom's purpose and Lord
of the Rings. Though he first refers to Tom as being not an important person to the narrative, he nevertheless insists that he would not have left him in if he did not have some kind of function. Tolkien goes on to elaborate about the moral philosophy underlying the Lord of the Rings, yet finally admitting that the desire for control is one that even the good guys are highly susceptible to. He speaks then of a vow of poverty,
implying that Tom has taken something along those lines. Here we go, I have a good friend who is a Franciscan friar. We have a good friend who is a Franciscan friar and avowed follower of the way of life modeled by Saint Francis of ASSISI. One of the vows he took when he became a Franciscan was a vow of poverty. Just what is the nature of such a vow? In essence, it is a refusal to take hold of anything with one's heart. I recall a moment when I
saw the power of this vow in action. My friend, given the opportunity to accept some kind of gift, kindly refused it, making a suggestion about it, about who it could be given to. In a way, this vow was his richness. Possession of the gift threatened this vow, A vow which I saw in a stark spiritual moment, brought him true happiness, true freedom, true peace, and inner harmony,
if you will. Though my friend's reaction was not perfect, I could tell he still struggled to maintain the vow to some degree, which is of course to be expected. It nevertheless yielded great insight into the nature of such a vow. If we follow Tolkien's line of reasoning, tom has fulfilled this vow perfectly and no longer must struggle to maintain it. If ever, he did struggle, so that whole thing of the vow of poverty was something that I resonated with me on kind of that same frequency.
You do a much more thorough and better job of developing this question of the Franciscan relation. I means some of these, you know, the the tonsured hill, the date of the significance of September twenty sixth being the date that they meet Tom bombadil Uh, and that being the traditional feast day of San Francivissisi. You know, I guess all I'm trying to say is it looks like great minds think think alike on this key.
Yeah.
That's why one thing I mentioned somewhere maybe in a post script on that article. I'm I'm positive others should caught some elements of this whole thing. I just haven't run it for us that developed. Yeah, yeah, sure, others have seen that valve poverty communist and thought, I think Francis.
But yeah, well, and and that was my only like kind of connection on it was just, oh, valve poverty, that's you know what Franciscan's Franciscans take. But like I said, you do a like you really actually show that that may be much closer to the truth, right, this this idea that that Tom is almost like this avatar of a Franciscan spirituality.
I think he's a he's a pre Franciscan Franciscan. He's representing something that will later be more fully exemplified by Francis in that order. But it's something I think Tolkien wanted in the story somewhere, and Tom was able to by using Tom, He's able to bring that element in and it becomes a significant part of the story. I think. I don't think I disagree with those who think Tom can be just removed from the story with no effect to it. I think he does become an important part.
Even though he's not mentioned a lot later, He's he is a significant part of the replot at the very least rescuing them from the barrel Whites and giving them the swords that or late later become very important. Absolutely, But yeah, that nobody else in the story represents that complete detachment from possession and desire for power and control as he does.
But but we know that that's such an important theme in the story. It may be the key theme of the whole you know, of the whole story of Lord of the Rings. Is this this question of that, here's this powerful object that the one thing you can't do is take it for your own. The moment you take it for your own, uh, and and you try to possess it, you try to control it, that's the moment in which you're going to be owned by it, right,
It's going it's going to take possession of you. And and so tom really is hugely important in that sense because he shows he shows that it's possible to not for it not to have an effect on an on an individual, even though we don't know why, you know, he's able to pull that off. But it's but he's kind of like this, it's almost like he's an he's an eschatological figure in a way. He's like he's both.
He both hearkens back to before anything was in the world, but he also points towards like perfect freedom, you know that they all want, that they all long for, and all the figures in the story struggle with, you know, struggle with the temptation of the ring. You know, we see Frodo all throughout the story, and everybody seems to exist on that spectrum somewhere, right, every figure seems to exist on the spectrum of how how dangerous is the
ring to them. Even with the Hobbits. You know, you have Gollum who's completely given over to it, and then you have Bilbo, who's more given over to it. Frodo you know, becomes more given over to it over the course of having it with him. And then Sam seems to be the most capable of being detached from it, even though he's not perfectly you know, capable of being detached from it.
So in fair im here maybe the closest among the regular Church is the closest to being able to go away with it. But even he, I think, experiences the temptation in his discussion with Sam, and proto he feels it, I'm like, which Bambadill doesn't even seem to feel it. He feels the poll he knows the honor he could get from his father, at least briefly, but he is able to to resist it.
Yeah, absolutely, yeah for sure. Well, Well, Keith, this has been this has been just a really fascinating discussion.
Great.
Yeah, I just I love talking about Tom Bombadill. He he he is a He's one of the best characters in the story. He's endlessly fascinating, and you know, part of it just feels like we just kind of scratched the surface on him.
Yes, absolutely, you know, part of me is wondering. You mentioned the beginning, how we mentioned that he's you know, he's obviously he's very much missed from the Peter Jackson films, And part of me wonders, especially after this discussion, if that's just because like he, like Jackson, just didn't want to get it wrong, Like he couldn't he couldn't quite figure out who this was, what what he was, how to portray him, you know, And part of me, honestly
is like, I don't know. I think I'd rather not see him at all than see it done wrong.
I feel like I've heard that. I feel like now that you say that, I feel like I heard that was actually Jackson's excuses. He was just kind of like I didn't know what to do with Tom Bombadil, Like, yeah, I just didn't see how to mean he's.
Intimidating, Like it's very because I mean, he's obviously it's I mean, it's part of the enigma. Right, he's great, and he's small. I mean he's you.
Don't quite know.
Yeah, I just put myself in in Peter Jackson's shoes, and I'm like, I don't even know how I would do this. I got it, How could I do this right?
I got enough to.
Figure out here. I can't like Tom, I can't figure out I can't figure out the enigma.
Know, it would be so easy to get him wrong and make that very slowly looking part of the Yeah, yeah.
It definitely it would be very difficult to uh, for anybody to get that, to get that character right for sure. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna close the last line from the article here, not the very last line. But I thought this was really good, you say, Keith, he Tom is a non Middle Earth being who was drawn into Middle Earth. Tolkien knew this, but keeping Tom Bombadil in Middle Earth allowed Tolkien another means to do something he felt was necessary.
It provided him a means by which he might absorb the Roman Catholic religious element that was so important to him personally into the story of the Lord of the Rings. You know, I just I love this idea because I'm a I'm a big fan of like you know, all the like paranormal stuff you know in our own world, and like, you know, what's going on with these weird stories of things that happen and they just don't make any sense and there's no explanation for them, but there
they are. The evidence is there for them, and it's almost like in this world, this fantasy world, Tom Bombadil is like a paranormal He's like a paranormal figure in the fantasy world of Middle Earth. He's like, no one knows exactly what's going on with him, and he doesn't actually make sense, but there he is.
Yeah, And I think that was that was the fascinating thing about that letter in the Lord of the Rings Reader's Dad where taught, where Tulkien himself said, he really doesn't he is otherworldly like you were saying. He's he comes from a different world and it just intersects with that world and it's you know, at the end of it, he says he's fatherless. He has no Tolkien wrote, Tom Bombadil is fatherless. He has no historical origin in the
world described in the Word of the Rings. Right, he came in from outside, and so all the all the looking for his historical origin in that world might just be prooveless if what Tolkien says in that letter is is what he actually mean to say, it's a it's somebody, it's the stage human peeking behind the screen. There is a fourth wall being broken in here.
Yeah. Yeah, it's like Tolkien was like, everything else is so organic in this in Middle Earth, and then I'll in Tolkien's is like and I'm just gonna put him right here. And uh.
I think that's the thing that has caused this to be debated for fifty years when you know how much he prized consistency, right, and how how they kept him from ever finishing the silmar really and it's really hard to conceive of him leaving a character in that he knows isn't consistent.
Yeah, exactly, Tom Baumbadil that the sunglasses come down slowly on Tolkien deal with it. Yeah yeah, all right. Well cool. So your website is Keithmatheson dot org and you actually have several other writings on Tolkiennian topic. Do you want to maybe briefly mention a little bit about some of those other articles.
Well, the two that popped in mind initially is one I wrote about the Silmarillion, the Endings, where I was looking at the endings of the Silmarillion, the earlier versions of the Silmarillion and comparing those to the ending of the Quinta Silmarillion in the published version, and arguing that we might be able to make a case that this might be because Christopher mentions that there are some things he regretted in editing, and I'm just throwing out there the
possibility that maybe this is one that had he not pushed to finish that thing so quickly, it might have been worth considering keeping the bulk of the original ending with the second prophecy of Mendos, and then the other one I wrote, which probably caused more aggravations of people than any of them, is one about my thoughts on Peter Jackson trilogy, where I just talk about the things I really love about it and the things that were
more we'll say, just problematic. So those two gouts and responses from people, gotcha.
And just just scrolling through, I'm seeing, you know, an article on on I Know Linda La which you call Tolkien's most beautiful work, as well as an article on Mythopia. Uh and in comparison of Tolkien and Lewis. So lots of good stuff, lots of good Tolkien stuff over here for you know, for our listeners to check out for sure.
Yeah, for ravenous Tolkien fans, absolutely yeah, more food for thought.
Well, fantastic, Well, Keith, thank you so much for joining us.
Fantastic, Thank you for inviting me.
Yeah, and just thank you for the time you spent writing this article and uh and and researching it putting
it together. It's a really just an excellent, you know, an excellent uh, you know example of I think, how to approach a topic like this and dominate everybody and help us all understand what different people have said and then you know, introduce some new you know, some new thoughts and evidence into consideration and maybe help us arrive a little closer at what what exactly is going on with Tom.
So yeah, yeah, that's been great, absolutely great.
Well, yeah, thanks a lot, Keith.
Keith, it's great, same same, take.
Care all right. Correspondence time corresponding. Yeah, that was kind of a that was a pretty long interview, so we're going to keep the correspondence short and sweet this week. But the good thing is we got some got some fun correspondents, so good kind of correspondence I like, which is pretty much just uninhibited praise of how awesome this podcast is.
So that's my favorite too.
Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's definitely the uh, you know, the the the feedback. It's just nice and simple just to hear praise and you know, not have to use the noggin sometimes.
Yeah. So, but no, we're not We're not vain or anything, but it's nice to be reminded now and then of how awesome we really are.
Yeah yeah, not vain at all, but yeah, not vain.
Yeah.
Okay, all right, so first off, we are going to talk about mention a couple of recent iTunes reviews. So first off, on October twenty eighth, we had Doink Doink one two three dollar sign that's awesome, awesome name, that's so good, said amazing, five stars. The best podcast I've ever listened to. I would definitely recommend you listened to it. Plus it's better than any other Tolkien podcast.
Whoa boom that that's awesome. Wow, that's my favorite kind of review right there.
Yeah.
Yeah, short, sweet to the point and telling us how awesome, full of praise. Yes, yeah, yeah, thank you, Doink doink two to three dollars signs.
Yes, thank you very much. Yeah, we uh we really appreciate it.
And They have an awesome name too.
What is that called?
Is that like a handle or is it a suggest an iTunes name? What is it? Does it have a special name?
Handle's fine handle?
Yeah?
Yeah, I like that.
One, two, three yeah yeah good so yeah, thank you so much, Thank you for the kind words. And then there was another another review on October twenty ninth from Proud Dad m cal via Apple podcasts UH Rediscovered My Love of Tolkien five stars. I'm twenty seven episodes into this podcast and the end depth look into each and every chapter, starting with the film Million and now The Lord of the Rings has truly helped me rediscover my childhood love for everything Tolkien. And for that, I thank you.
Oh that's great, awesome, And that's one of the things we you know, that we that we strive for here on the podcast. Yeah, just you know, either keeping that love going or reigniting it or helping people discover it.
Yeah.
I always love getting those those kind of notes when when folks share with us that it's you know, we've we've helped to rekindle their love. You know, it's if we can get you back in touch with Tolkien. You know, we feel like we've done a good job.
Yeah, so it's a good day's work.
Absolutely absolutely well.
Thank you, proud dad.
Thank you very much, Proud dad. L all right, we also have a shout out over here on Twitter from Carlow Marx Carlo Marx, Carlow, Carlow, that's right, okay, Carlo says at Tolkien Road, rereading the Hobbit and then Lord of the Rings been twenty years, found your podcast to go over each chapter. Good stuff. Thanksay, awesome, indeed very awesome. Thank you so much, Carlo. We really appreciate hearing from you, all right. And then, last but certainly not least, double
check my list here. Last, but certainly not least is from Jonathan D one of our amazing patrons.
M Hey Jonathan, hell lou.
Jonathan Jonathan said, Hey, guys, hope you all are doing well. I just wanted to drop a note after listening to the latest episode. Before listening to The Tolkien Road, I would have considered myself someone who liked Tolkien. But after listening to your show and rereading and reading the film Million, which was much aided by your show, I am someone who loves Tolkien. Thank you for expanding my knowledge of the man and his writings. Keep up the great work.
Awesome boom. That's when I'm talking. Jonathan knows where I'm coming from.
Yeah, clearly, Well, he probably just felt the need to, you know, let you know that he's moved from like to love, just to so that you wouldn't like depatronize him. Probably, why would I ever do that, because if he's not, if he's just aker, I mean, I don't know, I don't I don't know where the wrath ends.
If you're a patron, I automatically assume, I automatically assume you're a told lover.
Right, Okay, I guess that's fair. So, yes, that's fair.
That's you know, that's what we're here to do. Look, I'm not I'm not out there to hate, you know, mirror tolkienkers. I'm here to say that that's what this podcast exists to do, is transform people who merely like Tolkien into people who love Tolkien.
And Jonathan d is proof that that we are on the right track.
Yeah, total total virtual air five to Jonathan right now. So he knows that guy knows what I'm talking about.
Yeah, he does. Well, good stuff.
Absolutely, Thank you all so much. It's always nice to just have some just have some praise, you know, just have people saying you guys rock, guys rock. Yeah, yeah, you appreciate that.
We do very much.
But we'd love to hear from you whatever you got to say, right, Tolkien Roadpodcast at gmail dot com, Tolkienrooad dot com, Facebook, Twitter, wherever you want to hit us up and you can find us. We we love hearing from.
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All right. I think that about that about wraps up this episode.
Okay, all right, cool, Well that's it's probably good. Just been on the longer side.
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