From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the Times of India podcast. India became independent on the 15th of August 1947, but became a sovereign Democratic Republic only on the 26th of January 1950.
It's a good time to look back at how the nation has changed since its independence and becoming a Republic, so be bringing back this episode, which we've done earlier and remains relevant on a 75th Republic Day. Every Independence Day, we not only celebrate the day, but also try to remember what it means to be an independent nation. With every passing year, we also have fewer people who've seen India from the time it became
independent to the present day. There are things that all of us know as a sort of collective memory, like that video of crowds gathered in Delhi for the flag hoisting, or that iconic speech. Long years ago we made a trick with destiny, and now the time comes when we shall redeem our pledge, not only or in full measure, but very substantially. But there are a lot of things that we don't know of as well.
This Independence Day, my colleagues in Mumbai, Bhavika Jain and Lata Mishra, decided to speak with three people who've been around since India became independent. They spoke with them about their memories of India on the day it gained independence and what that time was like. They spoke about how they view India at 76, which is younger than they are presently. They also evaluated how the country has aged so far and what they hope for it in the coming
years. Julio Ribero, who spoke with Bhavika Jain, is best known as the tough police officer who helped end terrorism in Punjab and was the Commissioner of Police in Mumbai. But on the 15th of August in 1947, he was a teenager in a Mumbai college. He describes what the day was like for him. I was 18 years old. I was studying in the final year of my graduate of my bachelor's course in commerce.
I was in the Sydenham College and my younger brother, he was in the JJ School of Art. So we both went in a bus, you know, BST bus all over S Bombay and there was a lot of, you know, people, lots of people on the roads and we were very impressed, especially around BT Station. It was extremely interesting. People were very in a joyous
mood, so I remember that. Rahul Singh is an author and form editor who has edited publications like The Reader's Digest and The Indian Express. He's also the son of author and editor Khushwan Singh. Born in 1940, Rahul Singh was a resident of Lahore when it became clear that India was
going to get independence. He tells Bhavika Jain why he better remembers his experience of the days in the run up to August 15. In 1947 I was only 7 years old and I think the day that India got its independence, Partition was taking place at that time. And I think my father by then had become a diplomat and had moved to London. So I can't quite remember that particular day, but I can tell
you a little bit. When we moved from Lahore, the whole family was based in Lahore in 1947, beginning of 1947. And that is when the riots broke out. My grandfather, whose name was so Sir Sobha Singh, he was, he had moved to Delhi by then. He had been a contractor, a builder in what became Pakistan. But what was undivided India then in a place called Hadali, which was a village in what is
now Pakistan? And in 1947, when the riots broke out, I still vividly remember that we used to go out on the roof of the building where we were living. We were living in a in a road called Lawrence Rd. In Lahore. I remember we used to see from the roof that there was trouble there. And my father even said there were some people being killed during those riots. So because there was trouble in Lahore, my father said we better, He sent us all of the
family. I had a small sister who was just two years old and that was my mother. And so he bundled us up in a car and said go to Delhi and stay with your grandfather in Delhi. These riots will subside in a short while and then you can come back again. Of course we never came back because the riots get worse and worse and then Partition took place. Doctor Ustam Sunawala is perhaps Mumbai's oldest gynecologist and obstetrician and has worked on population control for a lot of
his life. He helped in the creation of India's abortion law and pushed for the use of contraception devices for women so that they could control how many children they had. Given the nature of his work for over 50 years of his life, it's only a surprise how he described the event of independence to Lata Mishra. The Independence Day celebration. Being an obstetrician, I would compare it like the birth of a
baby. Then the baby is born, the whole family rejoices, all visitors come with gifts and all. So it was like the birth of our country and everybody was happy, everybody was rejoicing. But as Rahul Singh described it, it was also a time of violence. Doctor Sunawala, who was almost a teen, remembers vividly how he and his parents escaped a mob thanks to a stroke. Of luck. My father used to just drive the car on Sundays. Our driver was off and my mum myself, him went for a movie
show to Paradise Cinema at mine. After the film got over on the screen, a notice came here. There are riots near Shivaji Park. So our clients or whatever I want to be careful when you those who have to go to Shivaji Park at the time God Saved the King was always plain. We stood up and then as we got out of the thin theatre, we saw three other Parsi ladies from the same colony. The other Parsi colony. So naturally we offered them lifts. So my dad was driving, My mother
and me were sitting tightly. It was an old Opal car and the three other ladies were accommodated at the back. It was all quiet. There were a lot of policemen in Tuali Park, Not a soul to be seen, completely deserted. So we were quite happy. We took a left turn to come to till the bridge. As we took the left turn, a mob of maybe hundred 200 people from the side lanes suddenly
appeared. It was really a frightening shock to see people with sticks and stones in their hand coming Sunday out and they stopped the car. At that time the old cars had they were radiator and the cap on top. So they opened the front cap, which was metallic and started hitting the front glass to break it and the side glasses were up and we had locked ourselves in.
They knocked on those glasses but thank God that old German Opal car could take it Sunday we could hear somebody who had opened the patrol cap and said Matislao Matislao and that would have been disaster because if they had thrown the matches in the patrol tank it would be like a bomb to our good luck. I seek gentlemen. I can vividly see now quite tall hefty lean is crossed the car window and saw my dad. He just put his hands up. Chodo Chodo Kuching. Karo, Doctor Shah, Doctor Shaber.
My father was a physician at Nile Hospital and he happened to be one of his patients. How luck works. And the car, then we were trying to start the engine and the engine wouldn't start. So it was. Great to watch the crowd wishing the cartoon.
Give us a start and as soon as the push on given the engine started and we got onto the leg bridge and came back to pass the colony safely home with the car a little bit damaged by the sticks that they were banging and all and it was an experience I will never forget at. The time of India becoming a Republic, it already had its biggest hero. Doctor Sunawala talks about how Mahatma Gandhi's methods were questioned right until India became independent.
But on hindsight, it's even more remarkable, he says. I think he was the right person who was responsible for the independence that we finally got without violence. That time it seemed that it was stupid, we nonviolent, to get the independence, but after so many years only realizes that what he did and achieved was something unimaginable. Without violence, without a gunfire, without a fight, without anything. He managed to get the country
full independence. Julie Ribero, on the other hand, remembers Singh, Jawaharlal Nehru and talks of the aura that surrounded India's first Prime Minister. Panditji I saw very often in the course of my duties my wife and my baby, which she had just been. She was about a year old and she, the baby was brought by my wife to be pitted by Panditji in Nanded, where I was the SP and I remember that very well. I remember people running after his his Jeep usually like to stand in the Jeep.
We have out to everyone and we were very worried, but there was not that great danger in those days. People were just happy with him. Rahul Singh, on the other hand, remembers the effects of Partition on his family's life. He remembers how Partition changed people and the effect it
had on his father. What I do remember about Lahore is the school I went to and a girl became my very close friend called Shereen Qadar. Shereen's parents father was a very well known lawyer in Pakistan called Mansoor Qadar who then later on became head of the Supreme Court in Pakistan and Foreign Minister under Yuk Khan. When the riots took place and Partition took place, Mansoor Qadar and his family moved into what you see my father's house that so that it would not get looted.
And my father, he left everything to Manzoor Kadar and Manzoor Kadar became the owner of that house. What partition did was, I think it created two kinds of people, one who suffered a lot and who became very embittered and sort of, I would say, almost communal because that suffered at the hands of Muslims that became rather communal.
But my father was in the other categories of those who were not embitted, who who were sad that the country had been divided up, and who made it their ambition to try and bring the two people together. Not that it will ever be possible to bring the two countries together, but at least try and have better relations between Indians and Pakistan.
That's what was his great dream. And as a result of that, whenever any Pakistani came to visit India and wanted to see my father, father was quite busy at that time. He always opened his doors. There's a joke in the family because he was little particular whom came to see him when we picked up the phone. If it if it sounded like a Muslim from Pakistan, immediately they were welcome
to, you know, come this. No, that whatever we were being ruled by is now our own responsibility to find the means of ruling the country and deciding on rules, laws, whatever we want according to what we needed. And independence was a sort of a freedom, freedom in life, which is very, very important. Freedom of thinking, freedom of speaking, freedom of action. And it is a necessity of life. And we got that on 13th August 1947.
So that we had to work hard to develop our country and although we might not be as fast as people would like or we would like, but throughout these years India has progressed and in the right direction. There is a lot to cheer about India as it turns 76. Bhavika and Lata spoke with our three interviewees about what they thought was the biggest improvement that they've seen in their lifetimes.
Rahul Singh points out how, while the biggest change he's seen in recent times is the growth of the information technology sector, there are other things like the green revolution that ensured an end to famines. In the last last few years I can say the the revolution in in information technology, that's number of smartphones, people are using all that. I think that but before that, frankly we really hadn't. We did have a green revolution.
As a result of the green revolution we were able to feed our people. There were no mass tannins. The other achievement, if you can call it that, was that our foreign policy was we were admired, you know, in the world non alignment policy was something which Nehru himself, you know, pioneered really and it gave us a certain stature in the world. While it might not be an Indian invention, Dr. Sunawala points out that it was medical imaging that completely changed his line of work.
In the medical field, mainly upset the guy inside, plus in other especially it is too imaging. The ultrasound has really changed the approach due to medical treatment because we could better diagnose. You can see you can diagnose properly, and if your diagnosis is good, your treatment is good. But Doctor Sunnawala is just as happy about the rise of women in India, something he says is a far cry from the situation when he took up medicine.
I used to. I am an obstetrician gynaecologist looking after the welfare of the women, not only the health thing, but the welfare of the women. And what was striking was the complete empathy towards the health of the women. Nobody bothered. They were always considered as a second class citizen, no facilities given everywhere it was a male dominant society.
Now I am so glad to say that especially in our obstetric tiny field, the women have become the leaders as they should be, because it is after all their own fellow sex people who they have to look after the amount of women power that is building up the women heading major institutions, which at that time was not even thought of. Julia Ribero says the use of technology in policing today is impressive, though he admits he can't really keep up with it. For example, I don't know this
technology like I like now. Today, even Mr. Rani, he knows technology very well and I keep him present to help me because I I can't get used to it because I am though. But now technology is most important. Every policeman knows it and all my grandchildren, they laugh at me because I can't do it. So they come and help me to get it all done. However, what upsets the former director general of police is that police forces have become more compromised to political powers.
That is unfortunate because of the influence of politics, because a lot of people want to now advance not by their own work but by becoming friendly with the politicians. And that is causing a lot of problem. It never happened in our time and we we were, I think, fortunately not involved in all this. Julie Ribero says that unless the law is implemented impartially, the respect for the rule of law will only keep
declining. Unless the rule of law that means whoever commits an offence should be prosecuted, you don't have to go and put him in the lockup. Now they are putting people five years, those those leftists are kept there for five years and God knows what that evidence is. It is its very unfortunate. I think the whole system has changed and that is not to our advantage. Because if people get used to this kind, they will stop learning how to investigate that.
Nowadays you will find that officers at that level of Mr. Raniyan, they don't take interest in investigation because they know it doesn't matter the sum if he is this party or that party, he gets off. If he is, that party will put inside. We were not brought up like that. That whoever it is from whichever party, that is not our concern. Is there anybody willing to talk, say to Modi Ji or to or to our. They're afraid. They're so afraid. No, this is not the way out of people.
So it's quite different. Yeah, I would not be able to work in this second, I can tell you that. But what do they see as India's biggest failures in 76 years? Rahul Singh says that for him, it's the failure to reduce poverty in the country as well as the failure to provide better health care and education to its citizens. I think our biggest failure, I would say there are two areas
and they're all connected. I think our biggest failure has been to not reduce the number of poor people in the country. We still have about 250 million Indians who are below the poverty line. I think our second biggest failure has been in the area of health and education. Nehru was a great man, had a great vision, but the two areas where he I think failed, where a country like China did much better. Even a country like Indonesia, big country did better, was in the areas of education and
health. And by education, I don't mean higher education. We set up Iits and IIMS and, you know, good universities. But where we failed was in providing good basic primary schools all over the country. We didn't do pay enough emphasis on Primary Health care and primary schools. And connected with that was our failure to control the population growth rate. Julia Ribeiro also believes that it's illiteracy that the Indian state should have done more to tackle.
Dr. Sunawala, who has campaigned for population control for many years of his life, says the Indian state should have done more to curb the growth of the nation's population. We may make a proud. To show. India is the most populated country.
I really feel sorry for them if they don't realize what is the benefit of a big, uneducated, poorly fed, unhealthy and unprovided for a shelter population in the country where I would say it's a human right to be looked after for education, for health, for food and accommodation. It is the human right which our country should look into. For every individual Indian that is born. Education and health are very necessary for the progress of a
country. It is not whether we can make planes or whether we can make tanks or whether we can make guns. That is important for the country. Our countries progress as a doctor and a citizen, I would say is to be measured by a yardstick of how much good health you can provide them, good education we can provide them and a good happy life we
can provide them. Happiness in life is a very important thing and I would say hardly any people are that happy as they should be. But what of the future? India, at 76, is in a moment where its influence as an economic and political power is growing. What do our interviewees worry about in India's future? Rahul Singh says that India shouldn't take its freedom for granted, especially at a time it has a majoritarian government. But he has no doubt that the future is bright for India.
He would, however, like to see India be able to retain its brightest in the country I. Think we've got a great future. Look at how Indians have done all over the world. But the sad part is Indians have done very well when they go abroad. They should be doing better in India itself. We should remove some of the shackles that there are on Indian business here. You know, almost every second friend I've got has got their children studying and living abroad.
Why? They should be coming here and there should be conditions here where they are able to really thrive and improve the Indian economy. I wish there were more and more Indians educated Indians who would work for this country. When I was finished my studies amongst all of my contemporaries, there was no question about staying abroad. We all took it for granted that we were coming back to India. Nowadays they want to live abroad and not come back to this country.
At my time, they all wanted to come back to the there was a feeling of nationalism, feeling to serve the country that somehow is gone. You've got a certain kind of nationalism here, but it's not the same kind of nationalism that was there at my time. Doctor Sunavala worries about a future where justice is openly denied and the rights of women are not protected. Arrogance and greed are two things which is ruining the human life.
Greed. For. More and more and more if you have enough to look after your day-to-day food, home happiness, Good sleep at night is what is more important then a bank balance or a black money balance going into crores and crores of rupees? The women who brought credit to the country, but we had any gold medals, how shabbily they are being treated by the boss. Who was? Very uncomfortably touching
their body. He is behaving as if he has done something right when there are so many girls who have been molested by that individual, yet he is going free. It is something which is unacceptable. The women and children are not protected in any society. That society is not worth living for and that is what is happening in the country, the politics and justice being denied, openly denied. Julia Ribero worries that movements to maintain communal harmony are no longer working.
He cautions that while there is a lot to cheer about India's growth, there is a lot to be cautious about as well. After I returned from Romania, I used to get involved in Commonwealth harmony. We had the mohalla committee movement and we had succeeded. But now the same workers tell me that there is so much fear and all the work they have done is now of no use. They have to start off again. Where I don't give up, don't give up because it's not fair to
the people. I would say that the present government in power has done a lot of good work. Let us not diminish their work. For example, the money goes directly into the bank. That's a great greatness of them. And there are many other things that what shall I say, that they have succeeded it. But this kind of What is the word for it? Prejudice against one particular community is not going to help this country at all. It might give them votes first.
I thought it is for the purpose of getting power that if you go after this community, the Hindu vote will be will come together 80% of the people. But it has not happened like that. But quite a number of people who would not have voted have have voting for them. I have no doubt about that. What is politics? Its a quest for power. So if they get power that way, I suppose I how can I fight with them?
But the down the downside is what I have worried that if you divide people in this manner like they are doing, it is going to be bad in the long run. We have a very dangerous
neighbor on our east. The one on the West we can manage easily, but the one on the east is very dangerous and is much stronger than us. So I think the whole approach should be like that, that please keep in mind the future of this country and if you just go around wanting only to win election, it might cause a lot of problems in the future.
This is my view. Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. We're available on TOI plus Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts and all other platforms of your choice. For any new steps, e-mail us at toipodcast at Timesinternet in.