From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the Times. Of. India Podcast Priyanshu Yadav was like many other young online influencers who are trying to build a following. On his Instagram handle, there are videos of him experimenting with various types of makeup and dress on Diwali. He posted a video to his nearly 15,000 followers in which he's dancing and then there's a transition into him dressed in Asadi Priyanshu died by suicide in his home when his mother had
gone out. It's still not clear what were the issues affecting him, but a finger of blame has been pointed at the sheer number of hate messages he received for the video of him dressed in a sari. Shivam Bhardwaj is a queer influencer who has over 1,00,000 followers on YouTube and over 3800 followers on Instagram. On his handle, the Guy in a skirt, Shivam posts fashion and makeup related videos while also
blogging about his life. Shivam says he's seen an uptick in hate comments since the news of Priyanshu's death and the circumstances behind it were. Reported. I just feel like after Pranshu's death, people have just started putting more hate in the comment section of Square Creators. Personally, I've noticed that I people are literally commenting when it's my turn because Pranshu is gone when it's my
turn next to you. Those were the comments triggering to me because I was like, Oh my God, you are wishing for my death. That is the last thing I want. In today's episode, we're speaking with Shivam Bhardwaj and Anish Gawande, the founder of Pink List, about the abuse faced online by queer influencers. While Shivam explains the hate speech queer influencers face, particularly those who are from small towns, Anish Gawande talks
about his bigger worries. Given the lack of policing and rise in hate speech on online platforms. Shivam Bhardwaj says there's no shortage of hate comments that he receives on social media platforms, but he says his own life experiences growing up in me that have helped him deal
with them better. The reason you see me still sounding so confident and so comfortable is because I was bullied to a level in my childhood and in my school life that right now all these social media bullies, they are so small and so tiny in front of that. So that trauma is so much bigger than all these social media beliefs. They are literally like why this guy is not getting affected, why he's like living his life continuously.
And I always say the reason is because of course I I got bullied to a level where I feel like this is so small to me right now. This is just so funny. I literally laugh on these comments, Shivam says. He was often targeted in school because he was seen as what he terms a soft guy, He says. His mannerisms were more effeminate, and that in turn made him a target for bullies.
I still remember this experience where these bullies literally tore my inner and that after that the inner was on the floor and our English teacher enters and see that something happened. Of course you see someone inner on the floor. Of course, the first thing you will say is what was happening here. You don't say a single word. She literally ignored everything and that is something which will
always remain in my heart. I just feel bad for them because I feel like as they literally failed in a humanity test. I don't feel like they were humans at that point of time because if they were teachers they should have noticed that lot of things were happening with me. If you raise your voice, these bullies will come back harder on you. So that was my issue. Like no one was there to support me. Now of course, talk to my mom and I told her that this is all
happening, but it never stopped. Honestly, even if I say my mom tried a school for a queer person in India, school is a very shitty place to go. I don't have a good memories of my school. That is the reason I'd never talk about it on my social media. 25 year old Shivam says He had his first photo shoot when he was in the eighth standard. He then started posting fashion related photos of himself on Facebook because he didn't know
of Instagram initially. He says he always got hate comments on social media and was also dissuaded by people he knew. I think when I started it was not extreme but eventually when they saw that I am not stop it. So whether it was my family or it was my friends or it was anyone from my hometown, they were very, like, rude to me. I know they all were laughing behind my back, somewhere fast, somewhere laughing on my face. But I always knew that I have a
goal. Simple act like wearing a skirt. It's still something that is frowned on in social media. How challenging is it to be that on a public platform? It is very, very challenging. I feel because a lot of people who are putting their bad comments and opinion on us, these opinions are not coming from them. It is their mindset, which is not even their mindset. It is something which is a concept which has been carried forward to their mind that we cannot accept people like these.
That was doing it on like my terrace. I still remember people were like, oh, you're just wearing these clothes in your home. You will never do it out there in the public because it takes a lot of guts and you will never do it. And a lot of haters were like that. And then I started wearing all these clothes outside. So they were shocked. So the comments got really, really extreme. So they were like, OK, now you're doing it for attention and you are not a man. You will never be a man.
It keeps getting extreme and extreme. So there was a point where I was like, OK, I don't have to prove anything to anyone. Now it's quite done. What is it like? To be online and sort of have an oversized online presence when you're in a smaller town. And this ties in with the Pranshu case only because I wonder if you're from a smaller town, is the bullying more intense you feel in a smaller city than, say, in a bigger metro? 101 person I think it's not
same. It's very extreme even with the Pranshu case. The only reason I related to him so much is because I come from Meerut. I do feel that all the queer people who come from small cities, all the LGBTQ plus community people who come from small cities, they do face the extreme bullying and it is more harder for us to come out of our shells and fight for a dream, fight for our identities and our place.
It is honestly like three times harder for us because people are really, really extreme, even the question they will ask you, but I feel like in. Cities like Delhi, Mumbai, they are more educated and they have a little bit more knowledge about the community since rising in the ranks of influencers. Shivam Bhardwaj says he has received a lot of support for his videos in which he's seen in makeup and dresses in public
places. He says while many believe he's doing this to inspire others, he says it's as much about pursuing his dream of being an influencer and working in the fashion industry. They think the reason I'm going out in public. Wearing skirts are doing all these crazy things that people do think that I'm a crazy person to do all this stuff going out in public.
But the fact they think that is powerful to them because I received endless DM saying oh the reason you go out and wear all these clothes is the reason we are going out And they send me the pictures and they wear skirts and they send me their all the good pictures. I I feel happy. But the fact is that I started. Just because I wanted to be something so that people don't laugh on me and then it
continued. Continue to a motive where I feel like of course I still want to make this my career. It was never about, Oh my God, I'm a gay man and I will just create videos. I I want to be a successful content creator. Why not? Every other state creator is doing it for money now, and if I have a talent and I do crazy creative videos, so why not? A lot of your videos are shot in public places. I've seen videos of you in trains.
I'm just curious, how does that go because you face a very hostile environment in the online space. Does that ever mirror in the real? World, This will sound really shocking because I know people will be expecting me to say that I face the shows out in public. But I have never and I wish I will never face. And I think one of the reason can be this is not my word. This is actually my videographer and my assistant word telling me that I come out like the way I walk and the way I put my
attitude on in public. It's very strong. People will take five times to come to you and talk shit at that moment. Of course, when you are younger. The kind of attitude I have right now, I didn't had that like five years back. I feel like a lot of young queer traitors and young queer people in my community. They must be facing a lot because I feel like they have started wearing all these cute, lovely clothes outside. And I know people can be really rude.
I know I expose myself to an extreme level of public going out in a Mumbai local train, walking on a gateway of India. It was something which I never planned to do. I just did it for fun. But thank God I never saved any issue. Like Shivam, Bhardwaj said earlier he doesn't take critical comments on social media too seriously, but he admits they do get to him at times. So I really don't focus on the extreme hate comments because I know from where it is coming. But of course I will say it's
very hard to ignore. So I also know why a lot of queer creators cannot ignore those comments. I always. Try to ignore it and focus on the positive part in my life and that has helped me a lot. My mom is kind of a therapist to me. If something get into my mind, which is really extreme, I literally talk to my mom and she's always very helpful in
this situation. But even someone like Shivam Bhardwaj, who's used to ignoring comments on post, says the comments that came after Priyanshu's death, in which people told him it was his turn next, really got to him. Coming from a family where I also need to take care of my family, my mom who has given her all. The last thing I want to hear is you're wishing my death because you are having fun doing that. So that was figuring to me.
So if you come on my family or my mom or on something so I extreme wishing my pet, I will not be good to you. Like, I am not kind to them. Shivam also says it's very difficult to ignore comments when you're an influencer because they're part of the feedback loop to understand what's working with an audience and what's not. It is very hard to do that, but I wish that all the queer creators can do that. The moment you see your video is getting viral, don't on your notifications.
Forget the love, forget the hate. The moment we get viral, the hate goes to some extreme level. Instagram has this one feature where you can literally add the words which you don't want to see on your profile, Shivam Bhardwaj says. Adding a hate word filter on Instagram can slow the amount of hate comments coming his way. He explains why. Only like 10% of haters have that kind of time. They don't have anything good to do in their life. Let this sit down and try keep
commenting again and again. But I feel like there are also people who have some work to do. Even if they want to put a hate comment, they will try it once they feel like, oh why can't I use this slur in his comment section and they will give up on it. They will not try like 10 times. But then of course, Meta and Instagram can do better.
Shivam Bhardwaj says he has seen Priyanshu's online profiles after his death and says it shouldn't be another case of a queer life lost because of non acceptance and hate. We still don't know exactly what he was feeling at that point of time because he's a very confident person. I saw his post, I saw his comment section the way he used to reply. Even I don't reply these days to my haters because I feel like I don't want to waste my energy on
them. But I love people who are still replying because it takes a lot of energy. To give back to the haters and of course a lot of time I just feel bad that Pran show is gone. Our way is gone. A lot of people we don't know they are also gone. I wish we could like get their names because so many people who are not social media creators, we don't even have any idea how many people are already gone from the community because of
non acceptance and hate. Particularly when it comes to queerness, and especially in a country like India, the digital space is the safest space for most square people. Primarily because you're surrounded by communities of care that might not acknowledge your identity, that might not acknowledge the specific needs you have. You turn to the Internet very early on, One, to find yourself and two, define sources of support.
So for the queer community, the Internet is not just a sort of space for a sort of additive benefit that comes into their life, but it's an extension of their social circle. So for example, even for me, there's so many people who I know what dear friends say who I first met online. For so many queer people, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook have been the initial germinating spaces for friendships that have lasted lifetimes.
Particularly to ensure that there is a sense of community, particularly for those folks who don't have supportive families. Particularly in instances where people may not be in a large city, or may not be in a space where there are a lot of physical or in person queer events or queer communities, the Internet becomes a source of solace. And you've seen this especially after the pandemic.
I think the pandemic highlighted the importance of online spaces as a source of community for all of us and for queer people in particular. Because once we were all locked down, the online space was the only safe space a lot of queer people had. That's Anish Gawande explaining the importance of the online world for the queer community. Anish Gawande is the founder of Pink List India, the country's first archive of queer friendly politicians.
He's also the. Director of the Dharashiko Fellowship, Anish explains how the harassment of Priyanshi Yadav is also a sign of how the once a relatively safe spaces online are steadily eroding. He also talks about why he's worried that this could bleed into the real world, and how that could reverse the gains made by the queer community over the years. When it comes to the abuse that. Public platforms that users of public platforms face.
How? Different is the experience of being queer and on a public platform like say, on Instagram or even a Twitter. The benefits of being on it are also about being open about who you are and what you stand for. What is the sort of abuse that a queer person would typically encounter in such spaces? So I think we've seen a pattern of. Online abuse that's multifaceted. I think initially there was abuse that came primarily in the form of a lack of understanding
of queerness. It came from this understanding of queerness as a Western construct, came from this sort of idea that this is an import from the US and that it shouldn't tarnish Indian society. And it was more directed towards queerness as a whole rather than towards specific identities or specific forms of queerness. What you've seen in more recent years is a very specific targeting of queerness. When it is presented in conjunction with any other identity.
So you'll see that if queerness is politicized or mobilized in a certain way, you get a double barrage of hate. So if you speak out against the government and you're queer, then you're going to get abused. That's double pronged. So there's this way in which that abuse has also transcended and transformed in the past few years into a kind of ritual that is aware of the nuances of queerness and still is rejecting
queerness. The main point that I think is important with online abuse and queerness is that can often get deeply poster right. I think these are doubts about your identity that you grew up with. Most people coming out face a lot of doubts around whether they actually are queer, whether they can come out, whether they have some form of disease. And the trolling that you receive often plays into these doubts, into these fears, into
these apprehensions. And particularly for younger queer kids, this can be especially hard. Because, like I said, right the online space is the only space you have to turn to for sport. And if instead of reassurance and kindness and compassion, you find hate and abuse and sort of bullying, you're very likely to retreat further into your shell and doubt your own queerness than you would have otherwise.
So Shivam Bhardwan. Spoke about seeing additional abuse after the Pranchu case and he said that it it it was also unique that the name kept coming up much more in his comments after the incident and with hit obviously directed at him. Is this the typical sort of experience? No, I think what you've seen in the past is. Like I said, right, a disaggregated form of hatred that's been spread on the Internet that often has not reached the levels of toxicity that you see currently.
What was truly heartbreaking to see was the fact that people are celebrating the death of a child. And I think this is something you really haven't seen before. I think you definitely witnessed the fact that people are going to say that queerness is a disease that needs to be cured. But there is a modicum of empathy and compassion that's existed that I see disappearing so rapidly and so sort of prolifically that it's truly scary.
Most people, including the most queer phobic of people, will draw the line at bullying or any form of abuse that gets to a point where it's going to harm a child to the point of them taking their own life. I think that's something that we acknowledge is bad, regardless of whether you think the child is queer or not. I work in politics. I've been running election campaigns for a while and along the lines also started Pink List India to get politicians to
support LGBTQ plus rights. And I will tell you in 2020, right before the pandemic, when I went to Supriya Sule, whose party was at the time in power and Maharashtra to ask for sort of certain. Provisions to ensure LGBTQ plus rights in the state. The one provision that stuck out was a helpline for queer kids, and that was a three party
government at the time. It was a sort of tract, tractitious coalition, but the one thing that everyone could agree with across the board was that regardless of your thoughts on queerness, queer kids don't deserve to be bullied to a point where they even think of taking their own lives. So I think there's a certain level of sensibility. Both in political discourse and online discourse that used to exist, that is slowly, or rather very quickly disappearing,
especially in the online space. And I'm really hoping it doesn't trickle into the political space because it has the power to really dramatically undermine any progress we've made in LGBTQ plus rights currently and also has the ability to reverse some of that progress in a way that we've never seen before. What progresses do you see being reversed by something like this?
For example, we've made remarkable progress on trans rights over the past decade after the Nulsa judgment of the Supreme Court. We've had self identification for trans persons being recognized as a fundamental
right. The vitriolic abuse, which actually funnily enough, is imported from the West with tough discourse that you see online today, is seeking to undermine that progress on trans sites and actually argue that trans folks should not have the ability or opportunity to self identify with the gender that they identify with.
And that's bizarre, right? Because the argument made is India is a culture that's only recognized 2 genders, when in fact we've recognized more than two genders since time immemorial. So you're seeing some of that pushback that's coming currently in the form of online trolling and abuse, which has the potential to escalate and
reverse that drugs, right? I think you're at a moment when governments are incredibly sensitive to public opinion on issues that get politicized and become politically valiant. I think queerness so far has been politically A valiant. It's not been politically sensitive, neither has it been particularly politically attractive.
If you see such kind of discourse increase online, if you see the amount of trolling increase to a point where there is a sense that actually it might yield political benefits to lean into that discourse, you're going to see political parties actually try and outdo each other to present themselves as anti LGBTQ plus or sort of protecting family rights. And I think that's not a concern I have so far.
But there is a worrying pattern that's emerging within online discourse that's leading to a language of dehumanization. I think what you're seeing today, even after the death of Pranchu, is a lack of care for the death of a child that can only be spurred by someone not seeing them as a child at all. And I think that's truly what is worrying. How? Safe, would you say? Public facing social media spaces. For miners who identify as queer presently, then you know this is
the challenge. I think for many miners who identify as queer, the online space is the only safe space that they have. Unfortunately, our platforms across the board have failed miserably to protect these miners online. It is the responsibility of platforms to ensure that they are protected online, and platforms have failed resoundingly to do so.
What's particularly concerning is that the initial focus on moderation and the ability to ensure that hate speech of any kind is not tolerated on digital platforms is fading and fading quickly across the board. You're seeing social media platforms throw up their hands and say we believe in free speech, and everything that's said here is what would be allowed elsewhere as well. Even though that's not the case.
You cannot say so many of the things that are being said online in person today because you would be penalized either socially or by the rule of law. But online, when you're an anonymous troll account commenting on someone else's post, you have the liberty to say what you want to say. And the fact that platforms aren't taking down those comments, allowing the targeted and malicious bullying and harassment of individuals, is incredibly worrying.
Is the experience of being a gay male influencer a very different one from any other queer influencer? Is the kind of abuse different in each category? Absolutely. The abuse is no longer monolithic. The abuse is very nuanced, with an awareness of queer identities. So gay men on the Internet are going to get a lot of trolling for being a feminine They're going to get a lot of trolling
if they present in drag. They're going to get a lot of trolling if they engage in any form of public displays of affection. Queer women are going to get the same harassment that women face but with. And there's a trigger warning for rape. But with threats, of course, of rape or conversion rape, you're going to see trans folks get the kind of turf like rhetoric thrown at them which says that you don't have a gender that you
should. I think you're seeing a disaggregation of the abuse In a way that's even more worrying, because it shows that these troll accounts of whoever's behind them are aware of what queerness is of the sort of diversity of queer experiences. And despite knowing about this diversity of experiences, their response to to this knowledge is not one of compassion or or greater understanding, but of more enhanced or more sort of targeted ritual.
How do you say, advise, say younger people who are in this domain where they're trying to, like you said, come online because it's. That safe space. At the same time, it's as unsafe maybe as the real world difficult question. I would say there's no perfect answer currently. I think there's certainly a need for platforms to take accountability in the absence of which I think where people across the board need to develop new platforms that allow for that sort of safety to exist.
In the interim, I think there's a couple of things that can be done. One is using the block button liberally. I think there is an assumption that you have to engage with someone online because they responded to you and that is absolutely not the case. I block multiple accounts every day with Glee because what I put online is for people who I want to engage with, to engage with and not for the world and all in sundries.
So if there is going to be an acknowledgement that such a public space is not going to come with the protections that come with any other public space, then I'm not going to have to pretend like this is my little soapbox that anyone can approach and yell at me. The second thing is, by turning to support from organizations that know how to do this well, I would recommend Yes We Exist, which is an organization that runs an Instagram page that deals with a fair bit of cyber
bullying and cyber abuse and they have a lot of helpful tips on their website. I would also recommend Nazaria QFRG, the Queer Feminist Research Group, which is an organization based in Delhi, which has a helpline that young queer folks can turn to, And the Disks Data Institute of Social Sciences, I call helpline, which is also really useful for those in acute distress. So I think telling the support
is incredibly important. And I think finally, the third thing is that young queer people are smart, and all of us. I think they've definitely figured out a way to apply pressure on systems and ways that we do not know how to do as well as they do. So I think mobilizing, creating online communities that can stand up for you and support you when such trolling begins is incredibly important.
And then harnessing the power of those communities to actually push for greater accountability mechanisms from institutions and organizations and even government bodies is quite important. Today's episode was produced by Jayraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter. Subscribe. To us, we're available. On TOI, Spotify, Apple, Google Podcast, and all other platforms of your choice.
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