From India's largest Newsroom. I'm Martin George. And this is the times of India podcast. So as political is one of India's most eminent political scientists, he's Chief editor of the journal studies in Indian
politics. He taught at the savitribai phule University of Pune and is the co-director of the organization look, nithi that studies elections in India, but he's been making headlines more recently because he and yogendra yadav have been demanding that their names be removed from ncert s political science, textbooks, both he and Any other are listed as advisors in the textbooks.
So as punchier explains how the names feature in the textbooks and whites at the heart of their campaign to have their names removed one, is that there is a letter written by two of us as Chief advisors to the teachers and the students about what these groups intend to do and how they should be rain there our names appear and we are saying in this book you will find such and such things and then Is a list of the entire team which is called initially this terminology as textbook
development team or committee. So it is at least two places where our names appear and an impression is created that whatever then follows in the textbook is something that we have prepared in those and are recommending. Now the teachers and students to study carefully as he explained, Professor policy card doesn't want to be seen as in Endorsing the changes made in the text books. Under what has been termed as a rationalization of the syllabus.
This process of rationalization has been undertaken every year since the covid pandemic started in 2020. Under this parts of textbooks have been cut out or excluded from the syllabus with the stated aim of reducing the load on students in an earlier. Episode Professor.
Anita rampal from Delhi. University had explained why the alteration of these textbooks matters education in India may be decided by state governments but in many states it's the state boards based their textbooks and class is 11 and 12 on the textbooks published by the National Council of educational research and training or ncert.
This has become more necessary with the syllabus for centralized entrance exams being based on ncert textbooks while demanding the removal of their names, the two advisors termed the edits made in textbooks as mutilations Professor pearl sugar explains why the use such a harsh term to describe the cuts. To begin with, we use text wrong word, mainly to intimate, not about the volume of the deletions, but above the logic, that was violated because of the
deletions. For example, we have this text book on political Theory and from that the new topics of peace and development, very taken out or the book on post Cold, War global politics, the chapter on, Cold War itself was taken out. So we thought that this really creates a confusion in the mind of the reader in the first place. And secondly, the relation will also because randomly sentences paragraphs, pictures photos were taken out. Now, you would realize that to
reduce the burden on the child. You don't have to take out pictures and photographs from the book because pictures and photographs actually are within good educational AIDS. In today's episode, my colleague, Alka do care and I are in conversation with Professor. Paul Shaker about why he and yogendra, yadav have decided to take a stand on the issue. Since they sought their names, be removed. Another set of experts involved in the writing of the textbooks wrote a letter in their support
soon. After a public letter was written against Professor pearl sugar and yogendra, yadav which was signed by officials from various government institutes. In today's episode, Professor Paul Shakur, explains the importance of the material that has been cut out of textbooks, X and the aim behind teaching students about these topics. He also talks about how he views the larger project of rewriting textbooks that he says will start soon and why parents
should be concerned. We started by asking him why he decided to speak up against the cuts made in textbooks only now So you and yogendra yadav. Weather forced to seek the removal of your names from the textbook. At what point did you decide to seek this? Because the rationalization has been taking place since 2020, our attention was drawn last year in the first place.
When this, in CLT said that they having something like 30 percent reduction in the syllabus That time also we had spoken publicly about this that from an educational you point a 30% reduction does not help the child to readjust to the post covid educational scenario. But we thought that this was only because of covid. Now, this year, the first thing that happened was that the initial T said that the same
changes will. Now continue and secondly they were very vague circular on their website saying that even if certain changes are not listed here but affected in the text, They will be effective that alerted us to possibility that this is something more than what is called rationalization or Readjustment due to the covid situation. The in CRT needs defense, also came out by saying that over a period of Time, new knowledge, emerges and takes books need to
reflect that new knowledge. And therefore, we will curious what new knowledge has emerged. About Indian politics that makes certain changes necessary. Like for example, deletion of the discussion of diversity from the chapters on Democracy, we didn't agree with this idea that any new knowledge has emerged which would tell us that diversity need not be discussed
along with democracy. There has been a letter written by the heads of multiple institute's countering you and mr. Yadav's demand to have your names removed from the textbook, so why won't you settle for anything less than the removal of your names? In this case? Also, what does the presence of your name? If the textbook mean for me, it was a matter of Pride. We were very happy 15 years ago or 17 years ago that we had this opportunity.
Opportunity to do something, which was reasonably good. I suppose many students have been writing to us that they enjoyed the paper books and even when they grow up they have fond memories of these textbooks but that is not for us to decide whether the textbooks are good or not. We can say that we spend two years and by we I mean not just two of us but there was a group of almost 40 Scholars teachers from schools and so on and so forth.
Sprinkle a couple of years on that in repairing, the state's books, we were all so happy that for the first time you could do away with the topic called cilix, known this quick curriculum, and bring political science in its place, that is where the textbooks on Democracy come for class, 9, and 4 class 10. So the idea was not to create an obedient citizen but to create a questioning citizen.
Now, we We think that that happiness is gone because of this action taken by the ncart instill, the elite, operationalized manner, they could have said that we are changing the committee. They could have said that we are changing the text books also and we wouldn't have complained because it is quite fair that in CRT, has the right to change the committee, get expert advice from others and prepare.
In new text without doing that. They have taken reports to this set of huge therefore we were worried and it's not a question of what you would settle for. We wanted to bring it to the notice of the public that this still lie. Manipulation of the texts is going one and that is legitimised in our names. I don't mind and I'm sure others
would also not wine. If the names of those experts who advise to you ncert to do, all, this are put there because then there would be a criticism from outside. We would still criticize if you don't agree but that you will be an external criticism. Not a case of this complaint, are you also mentioned some 100 academicians who have taken out
a statement. I try to read their names and the initial 30 or more, our educational administrators often appointed by the government's either government of India or
different state governments. What I feel bad about was that they simply impute motives one allegation is we want publicity, and that's why we are doing it. If so, this shouldn't have responded because their response has probably given as more publicity, but the other allegation is that, we are hindering, the process of implementing new education policy, which is rather ridiculous. Because here the discussion of new education policy doesn't
appear anywhere. They also point out that these textbooks are 17 years old and therefore we wanted to hold knowledge to continue. As I said, we are very welcome to the idea of new knowledge being taught. We are not saying that this textbook should continue permanently at all. In fact you will find that this is for the first time of 25 years that is full majority government came to power in Delhi.
So why didn't the government? Formulate, the new education policy earlier so that new textbooks could be made. They didn't do it. It's only now. Now that the implementation is likely to begin from this year and the next year. So I don't think that that criticism by his academicians is fair real. Things like food rot while and talk 2002 and emergency are deleted from the syllabus. So I would like to understand that deleting actual events from the books, how it impacts the
future education. See this book about which you are talking is a book about politics after Independence, and the students who were supposed to be studying this textbook where Class 12 students, who are already voters.
And therefore, we thought that there is no reason for us to be prudish, in deleting certain things because they are young children, rather than that, let us present them with what Problems and challenges, India's democracy has faced so far about Gujarat. For example, while the violence in Gujarat, the 34 pages of that are totally taken out the anti-sikh violence continues to have a mention in the textbook and that makes their delicious selectively.
So it is not as if all references to communal violence and taken off but only one particular reference. He's taken off about the emergency curiously. Some parts of the emergency story have been kept and then some quartz about what are the lessons of emergency and What are the consequences of that episode, which really tells the student to prove, the nature of our democracy they were in taken
from. So it is this, which in a sense was disturbing, Also do you mentioned about Political Science teaching why it is important to the student in your opinion, why it is important to understand or get the critical view in democracy as a citizen? I think this should be agreed
upon as a society. That the very purpose of education is to create curiosity, not to give information but to make the stew, Students ask questions at every level, I don't think this is limited with only two political science, purpose of any science and therefore any educational tool should be to create curiosity and to create a spirit of questioning that is what is necessary. Historically education has always been seen in two
different ways. One, it is seen as an instrument of the ruling classes to Obedient citizens. And to it is always seen as a challenge to the rulers, and we think that education should be the lighter and it is the overall approach not just of this team. But of the national curriculum framework of 2005, we were talking about the political changes made or deletions made in the political science subject, but as we know that this is not limited to one subject, It.
And it is actually the life larger issue here. When we are talking about the syllabus with your kind of experience, where do you see this going? I was discussing with another educationalists who said that this is part of hindutva project. Do you see that this is going in the light of the political ideology of hindutva rushed or at least in political science? There seems to be an emphasis on what is Called a homogeneous
idea of Indian unity. And that's why we thought that the reference to diversity is taken away. The discussion of Federalism is cut short and so on and so. So the reference to Gujarat is taken out for a more simplistic reason that the ruling party finds it inconvenient combining these two at least I would personally be persuaded by the argument that these changes are a Prelude to a larger ideologically driven project of page book writing in the future
that is corroborated. Also by what has happened in sociology textbooks, where discussions of caste and gender are truncated, that is am. So also happened in history where their removal of reference to Mughal rulers is being waived. I suspect that this government at least in its second term, is pushing the ideological agenda.
Very strongly. And obviously, if you can Shin is an important field where such ideological agenda is very quickly pushed in, so I am worried that the next series of tests books, what their ideological quality would definitely be in tune with What kind of society the current government imagines we have as a shorthand to that this term word Hindu, which has nothing to do with Hindu religion.
So, I am not saying that the textbooks will be upholding Hindu religion as such, but there would be various ideas of force, various ideas of militancy, various ideas of unified nationalism and an extraordinary. Emphasis on nationalism which to come into the textbooks now, that is definitely a possibility when most important part which is kind of related is people's moment right.
Occur it, I have seen that protester on our on waits for iterate as anti-development section of the society from the rulers. And number two, recently prime minister of India had called them undulant fever. Kind of derogatory word and then removing underline or people's movement from the syllabus. We see it in the education system. So how important is it to teach about people's movement in the school and what impact it will
have? If one looks at the development of India's democracy, you will find historically. It started with movements only elections came later and this is What does the Nationalist movement, for freedom of India? My starting point for the development or evolution of Indian democracy would be, what fully and a miracle we're doing. When in the 19th century, fully mobilizes, the so-called sugar has against grammatical domination.
I will read it as an embryonic, beginning of democracy in this country, fully might not have have talked in terms of Abraham Lincoln's or our modern theory of democracy. But what he was talking about was right? What he was talking about, was human dignity, and what he was talking about was equality, that is democracy.
So, our democracy Indian democracy has this extraordinary distinction of having returned with movements and having been enriched by movements that is what Mars of Terror of dr. Ambedkar Is and therefore that is what the larger nationalist movement. Also is carrying forward, This legal see in the post-independence period. Although government's never like protest movements or people's movements, they not only tolerated but responded to those
movements democratically. New didn't like the movements for linguistic States but he considered linguistic skills. Nobody likes the movements, the secessionist movements as they are called in nagaland and in other parts of the country but what the Indian government subsequently did was to talk to Naga Rebels. For a number of years patiently, do the issue has not been resolved.
They beat the same with measles because there was also a Museo Nacional friend which wanted to be separated from India. Talking to them. The issue was resolved. So you will find that democracy is not about just voting and elections. It is much more than that. And India has a rich tradition of that much more. The Western world has realized this only later that civil society as they now call, it is very important in democracy.
If you look at India, India actually starts with that intervention of the Civil Society into politics. X and only them in the 20th. Century electoral politics begins to shape. So I think deletion of this Rich Heritage of our own and you know this is something in this contribution to democratic theory.
So you are taking it out. So what kind of a national is you are if you are taking out, India's own Heritage out of the syllabus just for your pity immediate political considerations, that's the question. As a parent, why I should be concerned about this changes. I mean, academician or professors, like, you are raising boys. That is important, but we have not heard anything on National level from parents groups. You know, the reaction is still coming from the intellectual
class. It's a very large issue really, to begin with parents, didn't really think only in terms of examinations often. And therefore, they are not worried about the contents as such. But what will be asked if the examination how the child will be tested and so on and so forth? Secondly awareness about the contents of the text books in our country. Among parents are among the general, public has always been very limited. It is, unfortunately seen as the business business of the
Educators and the issue. Creationists, as a matter of fact, textbooks is such an important thing that it shouldn't be left to The Experts and parents should be carefully. Reading those textbooks and having a certain opinion on those textbooks. So rudely you are asking why our parents not worried. The answer would obviously in the third-place be that our society today. Least one large section of the society is not at all worried about the rise of individual, or the rise of what I prefer to
call as majoritarian democracy. We, as a society, whether we work in education or Media or in private other sectors, we are not worried about this Prospect of democracy being transformed before. Our own eyes into majoritarian democracy. Crasy it diverse Society being transformed into a unified monoliths that we should eat the same thing that we should not eat. What? Some other people also don't eat that we should wear a certain type of clothing.
Dress codes are being slowly imposed one way or the other. And in other words, this vaccination for uniformity is there that if there is Is everything uniform. Then nobody will stop us from becoming a great nation. That is something, which is happening around us before our own eyes. And generally there has been no resistance to that. So I think, when you ask why parents are not doing this, Facebook's the counter question
will be as a society. Why are we generally not worried about the changes that are happening in our society? The National Education policy and National curriculum framework are also under development. So how do you see these changes playing out in the Indian education system? See with all its limitations, the original new education policy has such began with all the correct noises or you may say they ticked all the boxes.
Because nobody can challenge or complain about Indian ization of Education, nobody can complain about Indian languages to be given preference in education. The trouble is that, while that expert group did its job. Now it is in the hands of those who are very useful and instrumental, in pushing the Hindu to agenda for the domain and therefore as the new education policy unfolds then new, curriculum Frameworks
unfold. I think we would have another round of debate on what actually is included and what is Some day, I will just give you a small example. Even before this new curriculum framework comes in Delhi University. This battle has been going on about having a separate ozone, savarkar or not having a course on ambedkar, even before the new curriculum framework comes in the textbooks, in Karnataka bear time for it last year and he'd give our and sour curls, right? Things were included in those
textbooks. So I think this infiltration or penetration of the educational scenario has already started. Now we will see in the next step of that when the new education policy begins to unroll from this end and next year, and the stage, next, that would be a complete infiltration of the education system through new textbooks. You said that, you know, governments are accused of doing this at all times of using textbooks to drive. Agendas is there an instance, that comes to your mind of
something of this scale? That's being attempted now? And, you know, is there a sort of lesson for us in that? No, the point you're raising is very interesting. Governments always have been doing this both at the state level as well as at the all India level. The nearest examples would perhaps come in the case of the left front governments in West Bengal.
But otherwise the at the national level in spite of the various interferences this kind of ambition of having The textbooks of a particular kind that would penetrate the minds of children is probably happening for the first time and that is because we for the first time have an extremely ideologically driven. Government at the helm, s interest government though, having some preferences for this or that ideological Viewpoint would always be very limited in
its interventions. And that's why I would say that. Don't find that. If one is discussing the in Sierra tea, I think this is a moment of Crisis for ncert because there is going to be a measure interference in the working of the ncer in that light. Then you know who sort of protects the sort of wisdom that we have acquired over the years because you're shrinking the space for younger students to acquire it.
Is it the institutions that will now be tasked with sort of expanding students Minds, And is it parents? Where does that happen? Then that's difficult to see the first answer to your question would actually be that there would also be a shrinking or blinking of the public mind in the future. If the same thing continues 10, 15 years down the line, the new generation of children, having come out of schools would have a blinkered view of society way.
Blinkered view of how gender relations should be and if You could you how once to look at Muslims or other devices or North East Indians. So that is the blinking we are narrowing, our vision rather than broadening it that unfortunately seems to me to be a possibility, and do you see anyone being able to public media Public intellectuals public? Minded individuals groups will always keep fighting but I guess they would be Small Pockets
rather than the mainstream. So what is changing is that the mainstream is being blinkered and the pockets, would try to Broadway's that mainstream which is a tough task which would take maybe another quarter of a century. So what you do in two years to remove that and to restore or at least enrich the society would require 20 years. And that's why this entire noise-making or as our Respond
spectacle making. We are making a spectacle, not for our own sake, but because we know that the damage we are doing is easy to do to reconstruct. It would take another generation, is there a scenario in which you see yourself participating in a process of textbook writing like this ever again, you are asking a hypothetical question and my answer to that is I am unlikely. Having made so much noise and trouble for the establishment.
I'm unlikely now to be invited by anyone, either going to be any party which comes to power, they will be worried because no quality is really likes. People of independent wind to prepare textbooks, but my Frank answer would be that if any intellectual is invited to participate in that trouble. And if that intellectual also is given the guarantee that an intellectual autonomy would be accepted, then there should be
no problem in participating. We participated in when the Congress government was in power, having been opposed to many things that the Congress has always been doing. And yet, we were given the autonomy. We were protected in the sense by the ncart itself, when we decided to write a chapter on him, Urgency during Congress rule, our critiques really don't give a second to think about this that this chapter on emergency has come into the textbooks when the congress party was in power.
The credit partly would of course, go to the congress party. But more credit would go to the ncart and also to process people who was like a strong People are always there to protect all textbook committees from any government intervention. He would tell the government, please don't interfere. And that moral Authority is
something that we need today. I don't know if anyone would have that moral Authority. I don't know whether this government should also have the moral embarrassment of agreeing or not agreeing to people of that stature. And therefore, I don't know whether I would participate, but if He says okay this textbooks like you wrote last time then why not it would be a good thing and a fun to do it.
My fear is not just that nobody would invite but that nobody would give even a limited autonomy to the textbook teams anymore. Today's episode was produced by Jay Raj, Singh soon. I moratti and on Vijay Singh for a daily Spotlight. On people ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. We are available on T. Y+ Spotify, Apple Google podcast and all other platforms of your choice. For any new steps email us at DIY podcast at times, internet dot in.