From India's largest Newsroom. I'm Martin George. And this is the times of India podcast. On the 3rd of May in the evening. I'm late the of evening Miriam in the office hours have been already over. So and Lady evening around 5 to 6, will I receive a message that your speaker feeling pools in the area? And then we thought, hopefully things will be brought under control. If curfew has been imposed around, 8:00 8:00, right? People started banging the electric poles in and around our
area. And then I guess all those miscreants that in Kettering and by about 8:30, became a knock or V8 and then they break into the gate, there are more than 30 to 40 people. I guess that's a victim of the recent riots. In Manipur speaking with my colleague pinaki chakrabarty, we not Revenge His name or his place of residence to protect his identity. He describes what happened. Next, on the night of the third of me entering the house, the forcefully, broke the door and
everything. Whatever is there inside the house, every items in the house of being in Brookville broken, the vandalized, everything TV, so far class are Mira freeze. Everything we were actually locked up inside her bedroom. So, this is hoping that they would come inside the bathroom, and then after the event device, everything in the other room. So I started smoking the bedroom. So the flock to that obvious, keep quiet and then, let's pray
for the safety. And by the grace of God, they didn't forcefully entered the bedroom. They leave it for a while and talking to each other. That they will burn down this and all that will be hard time. so we went through everything and they went out, we request our neighbors who comment because of At least 60, people have died in the violence that erupted in Manipur.
After the third of me in which two communities targeted, each other thousands, like the person, you just heard lost their homes in the violence, and over, 20,000 people who said to be living in police or Army Camps for safety, after days of curfew and shoot at sight, orders come seems to have finally returned to the state, but it might also be a good time to look at what started the violence and how to prevent it from flaring up. Again, in today's episode, we're
taking a closer look at the violence that erupted in the state. Eight and whether things could have been handled better. We speaking with Professor Juggernaut MBA, good idea. He's the dean of the school of social sciences and Humanities at the GAO, hottie Campus of the Tata Institute of social sciences, his areas of research, include tribal communities and politics, as well as conflict.
Studies, the riots that broke out in manipura largely blamed on a protest rally by the cookie and Naga communities. The rally was opposing the possibility of the Mythic Community being included in the schedule. Tribe category. However, violence had been simmering in the state for almost Earlier with an event organized for the chief minister being burned down by protesters in the Torah, chandpur District of the state.
The meaty Community constitutes around 50 percent of the state's population and the largely live in the relatively more developed Valley, districts of the state, the cookie and other tribal groups are much smaller and population. And while many live in the valley regions, a majority, still live in the relatively underdeveloped Hill. Regents Professor Juggernaut, says, the outbreak of violence over a demand forecast or try based Kota has been seen.
In States like Rajasthan and odisha in the past. But he says, in the case of money poor, they were plenty of signs of unrest before the violence broke out.
It's not new in India that the demand for getting included in esta category is experiencing violence but what is significant in the case of Manipur is is that it is not the overnight, kind of violence, the violence was getting simmered over the period and however, the recent Judgment of the order of Manipur High Court has in October of the issues to get it more. Why would this demand for reservations Park, so much
violence. If you look at the history of reservation in India, in different parts of the country, where we start in 1990s about the Obesity is, and all those things that this has been associated with violence, in one way or the other. But in the case of money for what I have, the little sense about it is that the to oppose the long-standing demand of Mythic community. It is to get included in St list.
Then there was a solidarity march by the tribal organizations of money poor because probably not saying positively by the cookie Community. But what I would like to in a raise in this context is the history of demand for scheduled tribe status by Dimitri community and I read the high court order with sensitivity as
well as closed eyes only. And one of the justifications that the high court is providing, of course, these justifications being submitted by the meaty tribe Union that they were part of the still list prior to the, you know, prior to the state, get and next with the Indian Union.
If we really good with this, kind of reason, is the rationality for including the, you know, method community in St list, which is just, at least, then the whole issues of Of similar kind will also be in a coming forward because this is not the only state which experienced such kind of Demands for inclusion based on the list that was there which was prepared in 1936. There were also other states that has I do work very closely with the state of odisha and
there were certain communities were part of the Estill is before the independence and they have been excluded from the established. So if we give some kind of green green signal to such issue them, We will be, you know, we will be experiencing series of similar kind of demands in days to come.
As per the official figures there are over, 700 tribes that are acknowledged by the government of India, this list of tribes across India was formulated after Independence while the meet the petitioners argued before the state's high court, that they deserve to be categorized as a tribe because they were considered a crime under colonial rule Professor Juggernaut says, the Court's order asking the state government to consider granting the métis, communities, demand
angered groups, like the cookies who weren't even heard. In the case, Professor, ambiguity explains why the High Court verdict on granting reservations to the Community ended up angering other groups. Because he listened, I could order has raised a series of unaddressed questions or unsettled questions. And one of such aspect is the
procedures that is involved. In recommending, for letting certain communities in the still is, and if you read the high court order, then in one way or the other, the order seems to me of positive to the Mythic community. That is, if the court is considering That they are already tried. So the state governments would
recommend for their inclusion. Rather, the court should have been focused more attention on the process has to be followed to recommend a particular Community to be included in. Estill is. And if we look at the processes, then that has to be recommended by the state government supported by register general of India and finally advocated or supported by the ministry of tribal ever.
So that will can be placed in the hence, but before the state government recommends, the state government needs to conduct or carry out ethnographic study to look at whether the communities and in this context the method Community really qualified to be included in. The Estill is so instead of ordering the state government to recommend for the inclusion of native community in the St list, the court would have been asked the state government to initiate the process of conducting the
ethnographic studies and unfortunately, the Time limit that the court said that is within four weeks was undesirable in this contact. With all due respect to the high court of money purse For now, the Supreme Court has put the money for high Court's order on hold after, it was challenged Professor Juggernaut says, there's been a history of land conflict between the methane cookie communities in the state.
However he sees the current outbreak of violence linked to two factors, one Community is feeling of lacking political power and the other wanting the benefits of reservation in order to have access to different resources. I don't have much idea about the history of cookies as well as made this but about the period. This is not the only you know, instances where both these communities have engaged in Conflict, your relationship in the past. Also they had engaged in land conflicts.
If we look at this aspect then I think the larger issue that is getting reflected over the period And I do believe has much to contribute to the present violence is the the the sense of Dominance, as well as dominated. What is seats are located in Valley areas, where most of the method communities are living and 19 states are to the hill areas. So, any kind of policy decisions are largely being carried out in the assembly when it is confined to the state.
Then, of course, these days democracy function on the basis of majority and if anything that is linked with certain kind of communities, then Will be some kind of soft corners from the MLS or political representatives from their own community. So in this sense, the sense of deprivation, the sense of marginalization the sense of short Change in terms of
accessing political power. Political position is already being in I sensed by the cookie communities or tribal in general and the other interesting aspect why they are more more opposing to the issue of extending esteli.
Is to the metal Community, is that if they are included in the St list, then the method Community can also move to the hilly areas, then they can buy land which is prohibited at the point of time and the seats that are being represented by the tribal communities from Hill areas can also go to the met the community. So I would like to make, you know, raise a larger question here. The larger question is that though? They were excluded from 1949 onward.
Then why all sorts demands demands are coming up in the Contemporary period? One of the ways to understand why these demands are coming up in the present context is the issues of resource, scarcity. I don't think the method Community wanted to be treated the way tribal communities are being treated at this point of time where the stereotyping the discrimination marginalization are part and parcel of tribal Community, I don't think they would like to have that kind of
experience. However, You know what they are. Raising is the raising the issues of identity crisis, the want to rejuvenate, they want to reinstate the kind of identity that they had and they are raising that they would like to protect their or promote their culture language identity but they have never been raising except the land questioned, raising in issues of political reservation or political resources or any kind of opportunities that are extended
to the tribal communities. What I feel at this point of time, you know? Is that this has emerged or resurfaced in the Contemporary period because of increasing competition to have access to resources. Whether it is political resources, social resources, as well as economic resources before, this speed of violence broke out, you had outbreak of violence involving the chief Minister's event in the state, which caused also for a copy of South to be imposed in as District.
All of this started from the Moment, stand on reserved Forest. Why would a policy on reserved Forest? Not even policy on it as much as just a survey of reserved for is spark so much anger. Because if we are taking any kind of policy, decisions, or any kind of enquiry, then that should have been applied across
the states. So whether comedy initiated this the way in, to touch a district, then the people of Tourism District, or the tribals of Tourism District, develop the sense that they have been targeted because it's not that, that is the only District where you can find the result as well as Forest as well as protected Forest are days. The kind of justification that the government is providing in this context, is that the tribals are encroaching the
land. And so on so forth, of course, two substances, such kind of claim. The government might have initiated the survey but that could have been initiated across the state. Not only Only in the context of the particular District if we if we initiate such kind of survey in a particular District, then it is obvious that the people who are living in, those districts will certainly develop the sense of, you know, getting
targeted by the administration. And at the same time, it has been raised over the period, that there is a political dominance of Mythic Community where the present chief minister is also happens to be from the same community, so they are looking from different perspectives within the Other framework of domination discrimination as well as marginalization as for the tribal communities of money for our concern. Another Factor that's been
cited. As a reason for the violence is also, the influx of people from Myanmar, how much of a factor should we view that as I think it's one of the interesting questions that the Contemporary nation state is dealing with and it has been pointed out that and that has been because one of my PhD students is also working on the communities living in the Borderland of Myanmar, as well as money born, where there is a continuous influx of the Myanmar.
People on the other side of the border, that is Indian side of the Border. They have been continuously coming to the Indian side of the Border. Our for trade economic relationship and so on so forth. And what she has also found in her study is that some of some people have already rehabilitated or some people have already settled in the Indian side of the Border, this may be one of the important leader.
You know, may be supplemented reasons for the state government to move in because the state government has been repeatedly, raising the questions of encroaching Forest land and the, the citizenship question in the modern era, Especially people living in the Borderland for them political citizenship, or the kind of legal citizenship, that the modern nation state has defined appears to be less significant than the ethnic
citizenship. And in the context of people coming from the venomous side, then it is believed that they also raised the questions of inappropriately during the international border between India, as well as male, Mark, where the people from the same category or same ethnic affiliation have been, you know, put in two sides of the border.
So they continue to maintain that kind of close relationship and it has been pointed out that the the cookies are for the tribal communities of Manipur are more sympathetic to the people who are coming from the main map because they have also undergone through a political prosecution's of the kind of political disturbances political violin. So they came to India to secure some kind of Safe Life, which has not been positively seen by the state of Manipur and Mom.
A is being raising that these migrants have also been encouraging the land. So there was a need for going for survey on all those things that has triggered the issues but I don't think that is the major reason of the Contemporary violin. The issue here is perhaps the competition over resources that we have been excellent over the period which has becoming scarce day by day. A lot of the survivors have spoken about how it seemed organized. They were indications that
things were not exactly, right. How do you believe the state could have done more to prevent this? I think, you know, one of the significant reasons behind this violence is the long-standing feeling of relative deprivation that has been generated by the tribal communities of money per.
Because, if you look at the composition of the assembly since then, Then manipulate has 60 assembly seats out of which 40 seats are, you know, located in Valley areas where there are the high preponderance of method community and one is reserved for the schedule. Caste and 19 are reserved for the tribal community that are located in hilly areas.
So the tension in the political sphere was already there among the tribal communities, then the state government would have taken appropriate initiatives to reduce or contain the Existing tensions between these communities. Another immediate step that the state government could have been
taken. In this case, is that because the high court has highlighted that the state government was sitting over the, you know, later of the ministry of tribal Affairs, for around 10 years, state government was not doing anything. Then that also indicates that the state government probably was either not interested or had got the sense. That metacommunity probably may not qualify to be considered as settled.
Riots. So when the court order or delivered its order, then the immediate State for the state government could have been filed with the petition and filing, the really petitioner could have been calm down the violence that we have been looking at, for instance, in arunachal Pradesh. When the supreme court order giving citizenship status to
some of the refugees. Like Chuck man has on then immediately because the native or naturally tribes were not in favor of granting citizenship status to the, to the migrants. So in this context, the immediate stepped a stately. Look. Is it file written petition. So but filing the reputation could have helped us to avoid the kind of violence that we have experiencing in the present
period. One of the BJP MLA has filed a pil in the Supreme Court and supreme court has come out with a Clarity that this the high court doesn't have the authority or has no jurisdiction to recommend for the inclusion of the, you know, of certain communities in the Travel list.
So the immediate step that the state government could have Been that it took the initiative to clamp down the reserve Forest, as well as for a survey that conducted in tourism to put District that has essentially that has essentially disturb the areas and that was the tension was, you know, building of and making the order of heiko do March high court public. In April, has certainly probably issue to get more violence. We're at a stage now, where we are being told that the violence
has seemingly ended there. Is a sort of calm in the region. How long do you see this lasting for one? And how do you see this going forward? When you talk about wallpaper resolution mechanisms and in conflict resolution mechanisms, we do talk about two types of approaches. One is preventive error. The other one is proactive approach to deal with conflict. Whatever the government's, the steps have been taken that can be considered as a preventive measures.
To contain the violence. No doubt. Some sort of violence, whether to generating fear among the People. By ordering suited site in a limited way or whatever it may be. That has also created a pure psychosis among the people where the people are not getting the sense to go out and protest or attack each other to some extent, whatever, the major, the security measures that the state government as well as central government have followed and contain the violence.
But I don't think if we don't address the Root cause of the conflict then probably this is not going to, you know, last for long and here the root cause could be that creating more and more job opportunities here. The root cause could be that we need to take certain kind of initiative.
So that the people can feel that they are politically included and they are not politically dominated by the other community, unless we bring such kind of changes in the mindset of the people than this, kind of violence will continue to happen. Of course, with regular Ville. And at one point or the other, I feel that the violence will happen. Again, considering the history of relationship between cookies as well as the other communities
in the state. Professor Juggernaut says, there are two measures that he feels can help reduce the animosity between the two communities for some time to come for one. Check. If the meteor Community wants a reservations or just better access to economic resources. One of the immediate steps that the government should take off is to conduct a research about the Mythic Community.
I don't think the all the métis communities are in favor of getting included in St list, let the detailed survey we conducted among the métis communities and see whether all of them agree to be part of History communities. Or is it the initiative of certain politically driven, you know?
Leaders who could try to establish their dominance in the reason, the research or the service should also look at is the Demand, only for real, you know, asserting their identities or is there anything else that is more specifically in terms of partaking resources or opportunities that are available to the tribal communities, when the gujiyas gorgeous with demanding for St, status in the state of Rajasthan.
State government of Rajasthan constituted a committee of the commission under the shape of sonship of Justice, just algebra. And the committee went to the rural areas, talk to the gujiyas and found out that they do not want a status. The people who are living in a rural area, they don't want estate as what they would probably want, is the economic assistant. So, the committee recommended that instead of granting a status to the gooses then special economic packages shall
be given to the gooses. And similar steps can also be, you know, taken in the case of money. But if at all, it is a question of land resources, then the similar kind of, you know, measures can be taken. Another option. Professor Jeanette says, is that the government can work to reduce the political insecurity in the cookie Community? About the furthering of the political dominance of the mateys. He says, the state of Sikkim has a solution on this aspect, which
might work in Manipur as well. One of the or another reason for opposing, the estate is to make the community by the tribal communities of money. Put is that they are. Political resources will be redistributed or they will have political dominance by moving into Hill areas and they can represent the representative assembly is located in the heel area. The lesson can be drawn from the state of Sikkim where they'll impose as well as come on.
They are also included in the history list of sickening but they have not been Even the political reservation then they don't do they have been demanding for that one? So, if the sense of political domination is prevalent among the tribal communities of money, but which is, which appears to be at this point of time, then, even if they qualify to be considered, then this political reservation can be applied.
That is that is that the political reservation may not be extended to the Mythic community. And I feel that these are some of the ways through which we can find the longest. Lasting solution to this issue which is not prevalent at this point of time. Today's episode was produced by Jay Raj, Singh soon. I moratti and on Vijay Singh for a daily Spotlight. On people ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us.
We are available on T. Y+ Spotify, Apple Google podcast and all other platforms of your choice. For any new steps email us at DIY podcast at times, internet dot in.