From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the Times of India podcast. And so did he do it just to become chief deputy CM again My take is no. And that also the feedback that I'm getting from people and MLAs are joined Mr. Ajit Pawar the the underlying theme is. That Mister Ajit Pawar will be made the CM of Maharashtra shortly. Mr. Shinde will either face disqualification as a result of the Speaker's decision or that
he may be requested to resign. He may be accommodated in Delhi. Whatever, there would be some kind of a reshuffle and BJP central leadership has decided not to go into Lok Sabha election under Mr. Shinde. But pay bigger game because too much is at stake And I think they think that Ajit Pawar, if it's given the leadership of the BJP in Maharashtra mid CGM, he
will deliver Maharashtra to BJP. Senior Congress leader Prithviraj Chavan, who you just heard, believes that it's only a matter of time that Ajit Pawar will become the chief minister of the state of Maharashtra after his rebellion.
After a meet on Wednesday the 5th of July, it seems clear that Ajit Pawar has the support of a majority of the party's MLAs in Maharashtra. In today's episode, my colleague Alka Dukkar is in conversation with Prithviraj Chawan about what the split in the NCP means for broader opposition unity around a year before the national and Maharashtra state elections. Prithviraj Chawan is a senior Congress leader and was Chief Minister of the state of Maharashtra with Ajit Pawar as his deputy.
Alka started by asking Prithviraj Jawan about his own experience of working with Ajit Pawar. You have closely worked with Mr. Ajit Pawar in previous government, You as the Chief Minister and he being Deputy Chief Minister. I would like to understand some insights of his personality other than what is written about in media. What was your experience working with Ajit Pawar? How would you describe him as a as his? Personality. He inherited the political power which was in the family at a
very early age. So in a way he was born with a silver spoon in the mouth. As he the cliche goes. He was made a minister at a very early age. He contested in one Lok Sabha election also. But he didn't feel comfortable there and made way for Sharad Pawar to come back to Delhi. But he's been a minister. In Maharashtra, for a very long time, he's handled many portfolios. He is quite decisive more than
anything else. I think he is very hardworking, very punctual, manages his time very effectively, which not many politicians are able to do. And I think I will give him a A plus for being extremely hardworking. He's ruthless, he's decisive and he's blunt. Sometimes hurts people but he's absolutely decisive and that is a quality which has been missing from Maharashtra politics for some time. But of course there are many corruption scandals attached to his name.
I had to decide in few cases where we sort of had different so opinion. Prithviraj Chavan says that soon after he took over as chief minister of Maharashtra, he had run a fall of the Pawar family. He told Alka that he had two bureaucrats take over the running of the Maharashtra State Cooperative Bank to prevent its collapse. He said Ajit Pawar wasn't too happy about that since it meant the removal of elected representatives from the bank's
board. And then came the irrigation scandal that continues to haunt Ajit Pawar. In 2012, Ajit Pawar resigned after facing allegations of siphoning of funds meant for irrigation projects.
Prithviraj Chavan explains how he viewed Ajit Pawar's resignation and his return, which he says indicates how the NCP leader works a. Report came from Ajit Pawar's department that over the last 10 years we are talking about 2010, last 10 years since 2001. Maharashtra irrigation department had spent 70,000 crores but the increase in irrigation was just oh point 1% from 18% to 18.1%. Now that was a shocking statistic given by Mr. Ajit Pawar's planning department itself.
And so as a new Chief Minister, we had just come from Delhi. Not only was I shocked but I wanted to see why this was happening And with that intention I ordered the irrigation department itself. To present a white paper to the people of Maharashtra. Unfortunately, the meaning of the white paper Shweta Patrika and Marathi was misunderstood. In Maharashtra, it was constituted. It was a inquiry against the happenings in irrigation department. It was not.
But Ajit did not think it that way because he was running the department for some time and we had very strange relationship. I think after this irrigation order of the white paper he's. Resigned from the ministry and he was away from the ministry for about a month or so. At that time, the Mr. Sharad Pawar made alternate elements, handed over the finance portfolio to Mr. Jain party and the ministry was going on happily as ever. Nothing else happened.
But he suddenly realized that without power people stopped coming to him and he completely felt isolated and all that and then he begged his uncle. To be reinducted in the cabinet, and which happened after a period of about a month or month and a half and all that we came back to the cabinet. So point is, without power it will be difficult for him to sustain himself on his intellectual ability or just his
hard work. Because then there's nothing to dispense and his leadership has been built very carefully among MLAs and all that by dispensing political favors, financial favors. Doing projects for the people out of turn, projects for them and which helps of course MLAs to get elected. In the next state election, after the resignation drama, the BJP swept to power and Devendra
Fadnavis became chief minister. Prithvira Chavan believes that Ajit Pawar still holds a grudge against him and believes that if the Congress and NCP had contested together in the 2014 elections, they might have returned to power.
Well, I I think he still holds touches against me because in his private conversations or even the fact that he pulled down my government in 2014. I'm sure that if you had faced the 2014 election together as the alliance of NCP Congress, we still would have emerged as the largest group and perhaps even could have managed to form a government with help of independence. Being ambitious politically, people say that. What's wrong in it? He was aspiring for chief ministership for long.
Shinde and Fadnavis, who are junior to him, got that post. But Ajit Pawar was denied or was not given a chance to become a chief minister. So what's wrong in having political ambition? Would you call him power hungry or politically ambitious person? Party splitting is not something unheard of. Mr. Pawar himself was involved in many splits. But this time there's also an
ideological angle to this split. When Mr. Pawar split from a parent Congress party in 99, there was number ideological difference, just a personal ambition. But now with Mr. Modi coming to power in 2014, there's a blatant horse trading. We saw elected government being brought down. Congress MLA is being this the way? Hijacked and taken this place we
had seen recently. Forget about the earlier history, we have seen for recent in Karnataka, we have seen in Madhya Pradesh, we have seen in Maharashtra in case of Shivsanna and now in NCP. The NCP faction is now gone over to BJP, a complete ideological opponent. They have been opposing Ncp's ideology, the Hindu to ideology for all their life, all their political life and suddenly
overnight. They become Bhakt Modi bugs overnight and it was really a pathetic show when Mr. Ajit Pawar and Mr. Bhujbal said that they had joined the BJP or they going along with BJP because Mr. Modi's work over the last nine years. It was laughable because if we take out their videos, particularly Mr. Chagan Bhujbal's and others, they were such bitter critics and particularly Mr. Chagan Bhujbal who swore by Pune Shahu American tradition. Now he's going in the lap of
Hindutva philosophy. He wants to build a Hindu Rashtra. So going back to NCP and Sharad Power's political structure, I would like to ask you that where does this take Mr. Sharad power on National scenario? Do you think that this will impact his quality or politics on National? Level, no, no, I don't think it will have any impact on the national. Alliance that is being shaped up because it is a 17 party alliance and I think there are many, many parties which are
larger than his party. But let us not forget that Mr. Pawar is a very experienced leader by age, is perhaps the senior most leader in that alliance and he would be like a father figure in that alliance and always apply a soothing touch to any any disputes that may arise when you sit together
and all that. So more than the numerical strength of his party even before the split, it is his personal presence, his personal rapport with the senior leaders right from Kashmir to Tamil Nadu to Kerala and to Bengal. And that will be critical. And that will remain because he has vowed to remain in the National Opposition alliance which is opposing BJP. He has also said that he'll be
in Bangalore when the next. Conclave with the opposition leaders take place around 18th to 19th of next month. So to that extent being one of the seventeen parties and contributing about 3 or 4 Mp's to the whole part. I've been few people going here and they won't make a difference at all at the national level. But I would also like to comment at state level. Is the state MV alliance, would it become weaker? Yes, of course it will become
weaker to that extent. That about 30 odd MLAs who would have supported us against Mr. Modi or would have been vehemently opposing BJP candidates will now become their candidates or indirectly support Mr. Modi's reelection process. So to that extent, in those districts, particularly Pune Nashik Ahmad Nagar, where Mr. Ajit Pawar has a personal clout, yes, we will have to work hard, but then it will be Mr. Sharad Pawar versus Ajit Pawar in those districts.
I understand that Mr. Sharad Pawar is starting his roadshow or a campaign from Nashik district which is a key district of Chagan Bhujbal and Mr. Raj Pawar's clout is there. And so I think there would be some impact on the MBA alliance here, but not a major impact I think because ultimately I believe that like in the Shivarsana split, while the Mla's went with Mr. Shinde, but the Shiva Senics are still. Loyal to Mr. Udta attack and the same thing will happen here.
The MLAs may go for lure of power some more, may become ministers and get some other plum posts. But I think the people who are with Mr. Sharad power from 1999 when we launched NCP, that will be a different story altogether. What about MVA seat sharing formula on the local levels and in the state levels as well? Congress is going independent for Mumbai. BMC polls How it will go forward
from this point? First, there is a Lok Sabha election in May 2024. The Vidhan Sabha election is slated to be in October 24. It could be pre polled anytime the local body elections are. Overdue by 1 1/2 year. So I think first of all we are focusing on the seat sharing formula for Lok Sabha election. Now to reverse what happened in 2019 where BJP alliance got 42 seats out of 48 and their seat
sharing will happen. There are certain time honored formulae and just contesting election for sake of contesting and not winning is not important. We have to defeat. BJP and the Shindhi alliance people have started talking that with the addition of Ajit Pawar, BJP may be emboldened to hold local body's election this year itself. So be it. I think seat sharing will happen. The MVA will go together, fight together in the forthcoming Lok Sabha election. Definitely local body's
election. We may have a discussion that we may have a pre poll alliance or post poll alliance will depend on situation. Being a chief minister, how do you look at voters anger about the political developments? They feel that they have voted, particularly based on ideology, to one party, but they are taken for granted and on a ride. People who vote for elections are very angry when the person that they voted for the party that they voted for.
The elected MLA or MP switches the party and join the completely different ideology and ditches the electorate. You know, it is like a, you know, treachery with the electorate. Perhaps the the Mla's who get elected in the lure of getting an office or some ministership do not consider that factor. But I have seen first hand what happened in Karnataka. Exactly same situation. Elected government has blocked on through horse trading.
Huge deals were made. But look at the public reaction in the recent Karnataka election. BJP has trounced, senior leaders. Lost. I think people cannot be taken for granted. People have a mind of their own. People are very angry when somebody deceives them like this. I think BJP will realize the price of this unholy alliance here.
But Congress people are saying that next number will come of Maharashtra Congress and people were talking about few leaders that they will join hands with BJP. Do you think that Congress will stay strong in this situation? Well, I think Congress will stay strong because Congress is in the winning trail after Karnataka if anybody does. The hope that thought even that he may switch parties perhaps is not there anymore. But yes, attempts are being made to weed away Congress leaders also.
But I'm absolutely sure that causing a 2/3 split in the Congress party in Maharashtra would be impossible. But that doesn't. Stop. The possibility of individual members would put under extreme pressure, may have to resign and they may take a different course in Lok Sabha election or future single election. So I wont rule out individual odd resignations here and there. What BJP is basically trying is at one point on national level there were parties trying to fight anti Congress.
Do you think that BJP is trying some kind of formula to keep Congress away and to get all other? Parties This election is about keeping Mr. Modi away. OK? It's not about keeping Congress away because Congress is not a major force anymore, as it was earlier. It is about defeating Mr. Modi. It is about saving democracy in 2024. So all opposition parties, whether small regional parties or larger regional parties, they realize that singly they will
not be able to defeat BJP. If you look at the arithmetic of last two Lok Sabha elections, BJP got 31% votes in 2014. Thirty 7% vote in 2019 after Balakot. So let's assume that BJP still has a popular support of about 35% votes. That means 65%. 60 to 65% people voted to defeat Mr. Modi, but they voted for different parties. This division of vote of the opposition has to be avoided and that's where the opposition
parties are come together. They met in Patna, now they're going to meet in Bangalore. This is a formula of trying to avoid splitting a vote and trying to put one opposition candidate against 1B JP candidate. If that happens, Mr. Modi will be defeated. So I think the JP formula needs to be applied, which is the broad alliance seat sharing sent by state and wait for the result. When Mr. Modi is defeated, the opposition forces emerged as the majority party.
Then they can sit down together and decide who will lead the government after that. So if you try to do that, if you try to name any person projective is, I know BJP will tease. Hamari pass Modi hai, aapke paskone hai. I think opposition party should not fall into that trap. Of course Congress party will have to take a leading role because even today Congress party has a 19% popular vote share. The next vote share is of trimal Congress about 4%. Then other parties are to 1/2 percent.
So I think Congress party will have to be. Play a major role leaders like Mr. Nitish Kumar, Mamtaji, Sharad Pawaji. We like to play a role of patching up differences, if any. They arise when we sit down into detailed integrity. Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. We are available on TOI, Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts and all other platforms of your choice.
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