#810: Terry Real — The Therapist Who Breaks All The Rules

Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. My guest today teaches people how to save themselves and their relationships when they're on the brink. He is known as a turnaround expert. And what he teaches, tactics and strategies are incredibly practical. I've used them in my own life. His fans include Dr. Peter Atiyah, Kevin Rose, and many others.

and he breaks all the rules of therapy, which is part of what makes him very, very interesting to me because the results are undeniable. Terry Reel is a nationally recognized family therapist, author, and teacher. He is known for his groundbreaking work on men and male psychology as well as his work on gender and couples. his book, I Don't Want to Talk About It.

overcoming the secret legacy of male depression. The first mainstream book ever written on the topic of male depression is a national bestseller. That really put him on the map in a big way. His new book, Us, Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship. is a New York Times bestseller. And I've also featured snippets of one of his audiobooks, Fierce Intimacy, on this podcast before as a guest episode because what he teaches can be applied.

immediately in all of your relationships i would go so far to say terry's relational life institute offers training for therapists and workshops for couples and individuals and i will tell you in advance chances are you are going to disagree with some of what he says in this episode. So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If something gets your hackles up,

Just breathe and continue listening and you will find something of value that you can apply in your life today or this week sometime soon. I promise you. You can find all things Terry at terryreal.com. That's T-E-R-R-Y-R-E-A-L.com. We're going to get right to a very wide-ranging and tactical conversation right after a few words from the people who make this podcast possible.

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Just go to ramp.com slash Tim. That's R-A-M-P dot com slash Tim. Cards issued by Sutton Bank. Member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply. at this altitude. I'm a cybernetic woman. Terry, so nice to see you. Thanks for making the time for the show. Oh, it's wonderful to be here, Tim. I'm a big fan. And I am a big fan, and it all started with two people. I would say Peter Attia first.

on the topic of male depression, and then Kevin Rose on couples therapy specifically. So... We've had, I suppose, indirectly and directly, a few years, or I've had a few years of Terry Reel, and I thought that I would share more of Terry live and in person with my audience for a number of reasons. And as we discussed before recording, I thought we would start with some stories, story time with Terry. And I will cue it with,

Bread. Pumpernickel. Exactly, as all good stories begin. Pumpernickel. So could you fill in the blanks with that particular story, please? So as you know, Tim, my specialty, a couple on the brink that no one else has been able to help. That's what I've been doing for 20 years and that's what I teach. So here's a couple on the brink. The issue was that he was a chronic liar. I teach my therapist

You pay attention to what people report, you pay attention to what they do in front of you, and you pay attention to how you feel. And he's one of these guys, I walk in and I go, the sky's blue. And he goes, well, not really blue, it's really... The guy is a champion evader, so I get that. He's an evader. Then I ask a relational question. A standard therapist would think, oh, where'd you get that? No.

There's somebody else on the other side of that habit. He learned it. So I say to him, who controlled you growing up? He's an evader. Who is he evading? Sure enough, Dad. Military man, how he sat, how he ate, his friends. I said, well, what did that little boy do with that controlling father?

And Timmy smiles. And that's the smile of resistance. I like that smile. A very mischievous smile. And he says to me, ready? I lied. Dad said don't play with Henry. I played with Henry and told him I was playing with Tom. Smart. I always teach my students be respectful of the exquisite intelligence. of that adaptive little boy or girl that you were. You did just what you needed to do to get by. But guess what?

You're not that little boy. Your wife is not your father. Maybe you're on death's door here, but maybe it's time to change this up. That's it. One session. Of course, I don't tell you the one sessions that don't work. I have to tell you the ones that work. Anyway, one session. They come back. Two weeks told us absolutely true. Hand in hand. We're done. And they were. They were done. Okay, there's a story here. Tell me the story guy says to me

Over the weekend his wife sent him to the grocery store to get say 12 things and true to form He comes back with 11. The wife says where's the pumpernickel? I want folks to feel that He says every muscle and nerve in his body was screaming to say they were out of it. This is a moment my wife, wonderful family therapist, Billinda Berman, calls relational heroism. Every muscle was screaming to do the same old, same old. And I took a breath.

I thought of you. He was borrowing my prefrontal cortex. I thought of you, Terry. I looked at my wife and I said, I forgot the goddamn pumpernickel. And she looked at me, true story, and she burst into tears. And she said, I've been waiting for this moment for 25 years. That's the story.

So in relational life therapy, the work I've created, we talk about three parts of the human psyche. The wise adult, the part I'm talking to right now, prefrontal cortex, the most evolved part of the brain. Gracias. the part that evolved last in the human species that's the part that evolves last hey your parents out there with ADHD kids 26 years old chill you got 26 years before they start to calm down anyway prefrontal cortex Stop and think and cheers.

But what makes life interesting and dicey is there are two, we call them subcortical parts of the brain, automatic, you know, knee-jerk response. The mature, wise adult, All the way, amygdala in the back is the completely flooded, wounded child part. First moments of life to 4-5. Just flooded. Just wants to crawl in someone's lap and cry. Between these two is what we call the adaptive child part. And Tim, that's the part most of the people I see have lived most of their lives in.

thinking that that's an adult, and it's not. It's a kid's version of an adult. And the hallmark of the adaptive child part of us is that it's automatic. Fight, flight, fawn. I gotta get out of here or the world's gone. I gotta stand up for myself. What is fawn? Could you explain that again? Cordependence. Oh my god, Tim's feeling bad. I gotta make him feel good because if he doesn't feel good, I don't feel good.

Big for a lot of women, but not only women. And it's not an adult, let me see what I can do to make this relationship work. It's an anxious, compulsive, oh my God, I got to fix this guy. Okay.

What we teach. is shifting out of that, we call it relational mindfulness. This is the core skill from which all other skills depend. The adaptive tunnel part of us You know, you played the losing strategies from fierce intimacy in a podcast. It doesn't want to use skills. It doesn't want to be intimate. Intimacy is scary. It wants self-protection. So I'm going to control you. I'm going to scream at you. I'm going to withdraw from you. I will never get what I want.

in the relationship when my adaptive child has taken over and almost all of the people I see what happens you know skills are great but when you're flooded they go right out the window so the first skill

I call it remembering love. Remember the person you're speaking to as someone you care about. And you live with them, dummy. It's in your interest. So get centered. And that, you know, somebody wrote, wait, why am I talking? And be honest with you. Are you talking to narrow your partner into the ground or prove you're right? Then take a break. I'm a big fan of break.

Wait until you remember you're talking to someone you care about and the reason why you're opening up your mouth is to make things better now What makes life even more dicey is that that adaptation like the guy in the storyline was born in a relationship. And what happens is when people shift out of... I speak about miserable, comfortable, happy, uncomfortable.

And when you move out of that into new territory, vulnerability risk-taking courage standing up for yourself for some coming down and yielding for others when you move into intimacy you lose that old relationship And there's a lot of, not always, but a lot of unconscious guilt and loyalty.

So part of the reason why we don't change is we're loyal to the relationships that we learn how to be screwed up in. And it feels odd. I say we're immigrants. We leave the old country and the old people. So a story Here's a story true story the guy comes to me. He says you're my night therapist There's a challenge. Gruntless down, right? No knots in the belt. My therapist, eight therapists have tried to help me, and he was screwed up. The guy was an award-winning artist, a celebrated artist.

You know, he's got a bad back. He doesn't go to the doctor. He's got rotten teeth. He smokes too much. He's just a mess. He's going to die early at this rate. What's his story? Here's his story. He was raised by a single mom. She died of alcoholism. Didn't know his dad. Her story was, when she was a little girl, her father beat everybody up in the whole house. Mother and all four sisters in her. And the little nine-year-old girl, this feisty chick.

Walks over to her father says you lay a hand on my mother or my sisters and I'm gonna call the police and have you sent to jail True story father looks at this little nine-year-old said okay Dear Wind, I'm not going to lay a hand on your mother or sisters ever again. I'm just going to beat you. And he beat her every day of her life until she finally escaped at 16. Jesus. Then she became an alcoholic. Wow. Catholic family. So here's what I say. I say, well...

I know why therapists have failed. And he cued me. He said, I said, what happens with your therapist? He said, well, sooner or later they all care more about me than I do. And then I ditch him. Okay, got it. Okay, I know why that happened. I say, your mother, who he adored, your mother was a sainted martyr. What she did to save her family as a nine-year-old girl was crawl up on that cross and get crucified. And guess what? You're up on that cross with her.

And if you take care of yourself and live a life and get happy and successful and intimate, you will leave her on the cross. She's dead, by the way, but it doesn't matter. You'll leave her. And you ain't going to do that. So you know what? I'm not going to try and make you better. I'm going to celebrate your sacrifice. And this is a true story to me. He looks at me and goes, My back is killing me. Do no good doctor in New York.

And there we were. So what do you do with that? I got him a good doctor in New York. I mean, once there's progress, you're moving. I got it. So at that point, he was ready to actually make change. Yeah, I say, look, this is what you're doing. I admire it. I always side with the adaptation. I admire it. By the way, you're gonna die. Your mama's already dead. She doesn't care anymore. But what a loyal guy you are. Congratulations.

You really want to live like this? And he says, no. Everybody else argued with him. You got to live. You got to live. No, I don't. No, I don't. Why don't you crawl up on that cross and die with your mother? He goes, ugh. I don't think so. So, one of the... maybe differentiating characteristics that i appreciate about you and i i can only speak to my experience with you but i'm sure it applies to therapists you've trained is taking a position right you're not

playing the neutral mirror with all of your clients which gets old very quickly for me at least when I've worked with other therapists I ask them what they think, and they're like, well, what do you think? And it just becomes this game of echo. Why do you think it is so uncommon to take positions and how can it be effective?

Oh my God, we're taught not to as therapists. We're actively taught not to. God forbid you should, you know, thou shalt not take sides. If you take a side, particularly if you side with a woman against a man. Then you have to go to your supervisor and talk about your mother for a while. And then you can go back into the therapist. No, no, no, no, no. The idea is that all problems are 50-50. And common sense knows that's just bullshit.

Literally, I treated a couple. The guy was an untreated, bipolar, manic-depressive, alcoholic rager. What was the woman's quote-unquote contribution? She was there. That was her contribution. And this was the feminist critique of family therapy. You don't say to an abused spouse, what's your 50% of this? I mean, that's grotesque. So, in RLT, we call it like we said, Tim, you're a nut, and Mrs. Tim, you're an even bigger nut, and here's why.

And here's what I think you need to do about it. So some problems are 40-60. Some problems are 99-1. We call it like we see it. So I want to bring up some other

perhaps concepts or ways of looking at common problems that I think could help people. Could you discuss in objectivity battles, maybe being a picture of what that looks like. And this is something I found personally very helpful, by the way, not just in intimate relationships, but in all relationships. So could you speak to this, please? Yeah, I'm glad you saw that because relationships are relationships. We're doing a corporate piece.

We're doing a big thing for the general public. And the same skills in work with your kids, with your dog. Although most people treat their dogs better than they treat their spouses. But anyway... Uh, okay. What were we talking about? We were talking about objectivity battles. So what does it look like to do that the wrong way? Actually, let me go big picture for 30 seconds. The essence of my work, the new book, Awesome, is about correcting what

Gregory Basin, the father of family therapy, husband of Margaret Mead, called humankind's epistemological error, philosophical error. And here it is. We stand apart from nature, and we control it. We stand apart from nature, that's individualism. We control it, that's patriarchy.

And by the way, control can be one up, that's male, do what I say, or regulating up, one down, that's traditionally the female, enabling, don't get daddy off. Both forms of control, all bullshit. Nobody controls anything. Instead, we offer a map and then tools to live it. But here's the new map. You're not outside of nature, idiot. You're inside nature and you depend upon it. Our relationships are our biosphere.

We breathe them. You're an ecosystem. You can pollute your biosphere with a temper tantrum over here, but your partner will retaliate with cold distance over here. There's no escape. You're linked. And the idea that you're not linked is diluted. So once you wake up, to the fact that I'm in it, I'm not above it, then all the worlds change. Who's right, who's wrong, who cares? So objectivity battle. Here's the bitter pill. Objectivity has no place in personal relations. I'm sorry.

The relational answer or ecological answer, there are two ways of saying the same thing. The relational answer to who's right and who's wrong is who gives a shit. What matters is, how are you and I going to work this thing in a way that's going to work for us? And proving who's right and who's wrong is not the way to do that. But I've been married 40 years. When my wife and I have a disagreement over accuracy, who remembered it correctly? Whose feelings are more valid?

You know, she's a very difficult person, Belinda. And she has this nasty way of thinking she's right. Now I'm wrong. I don't know why she does that. It doesn't work. So let me give you an example of the new world. This is a true story. Okay, totally heteronormative her to him. You're a reckless driver And her you're overly nervous. How many of us have been through this one?

And everybody starts marshalling their evidence and arguing their case. No, you're nervous. You're nervous about this. No, no, you're reckless. You're tailgating. Okay, that's an object to me. Who's right? Who's wrong? After one session with me, true story. Heard of him. Honey, start with that. Changing energy. Honey, I know you love me. Right or wrong. Maybe I'm overly nervous. Whatever. See, she just takes the whole battle off the table by talking subjectively.

Maybe I'm overly nervous. Nevertheless, when you tailgate and you go switch lanes and you speed up, I get crazy. I get scared. Now, when you're driving on your own, I worry, but it's your life. When I'm next to you, You don't really want me sitting here being terrified the whole time we're driving. As a favor to me, could you please slow down and drive more conservatively? And him to her, be, be, be. Okay. and he does What might have been a fight that lasted 40 years is done in 15 minutes.

Because it moves out of objective, who's the authority, who's right, who's wrong, what's fair, what's unfair, and it becomes relational. We're a team. You love me. As a favor to me, could you? Sure. New World. New world and new tools. And just to underscore that, I remember hearing you give an example. And suppose the overarching point that I was going to underscore is there isn't a threshold.

past which your objective data wins, typically, right? So if you think your wife is yelling at a server at a restaurant, It doesn't matter if you have an audiologist sitting right next to you with various types of measurement equipment, it's still not going to work.

It might not work. Of course, applying a scientific method to your relationship. Good luck. I'm probably going to do a poor job of prompting this, but I found it so fascinating when I heard you present it once, and that was, in effect,

The same way that people sometimes escalate problems where they say, da-da-da-da, then you always do this, and it's reflective of this character flaw, blah-blah-blah-blah, and you could lay it out much more eloquently than I could, is the same way that you can de-escalate something. If you apologize for it. If you're out yourself. Yeah, could you speak to that? Because I just thought that was such a brilliant turnaround technique when I heard it that it's stuck with me ever since.

Yeah, this is a step in the critical process of repair. And either in this one or you invite me back, I would love to lay out some skills. You know, we did the losing strategy. I want to do some of the winning. And here's a skill that's part of repair. First of all, look. All of us when someone we care about confronts us with something difficult. We move into two orientations.

The first is objective reality. Well, that's true. That's not true. That's accurate. That's not. Well, you got to understand that. And then we argue. In our heads, if not out of our mouths. We don't listen, we rebut. And then the second orientation we all go to is ourselves. I can't believe I have to put up with this crime. Belinda, I was just on the road telling thousands of people how to love each other, and I come home and you... Let go of objective reality. Let go of you. And take a breath.

And I want everybody to write this one down. enter into compassionate curiosity about your partner's subjective experience let me say it again compassionate curiosity about your partner's subjective experience. They're nuts, okay, but find out what kind of nut they are. That feels bad, honey. Help me understand. Who sounds like that? But that makes peace. And then, when they tell you, you did this, you did this, you did this, acknowledge it

Don't deny it. Don't minimize it. Don't ration it. Yeah, but. That's not an apology. Yeah, but. I did it. Land on it. And if you really want to get slick, here's the deal. Ready? This is the advanced course. You went right to the PhD. Here's what I want you to notice. Generally speaking, functional moves in a relationship are moves that empower your partner to come through for you. Nobody gets that.

Functional moves in a car make the car go. Dysfunctional moves stop it. Functional moves in a relationship empower the other guy to give you what you want. Dysfunctional moves render them helpless. So what we do, because we're trying to get heard, is we go, you did this, and last week you did that, and ten years ago you did that, and you always and you never. The normal escalation is from this moment to trend to character and I teach people to stay particular and not do that

Because every move up that ladder renders the person you're speaking to more helpless. And they're either just going to get mad or leave. You did it, you always, you never, you are a slob. Okay. Alright, so stay particular if you're the disgruntled one. But if you've been confronted, B is, yes, I did it. Here's an A. You walk up the same ladder I'm telling you not to do as the disgruntled one. I did it. It's not the first time I've done it.

Terry, the kids and I were waiting for you. You knew dinner was at 7. You come waltzing in at 7.45. You don't call. You don't text. It was really rude. you're right i did that And I can be late as an issue. We know that. And when I do that, I'm being thoughtless. I get caught up in the moment and I stop thinking about the impact I'm having. That's really kind of selfish of me. I do have some selfish tendencies. I'm working on it. Holy shit, now that's an apology.

So if your partner outs you, you did it before, you often do it, you never, you always, it's terrible. But if you out you, oh my God, your partner's going, wow, there's hope. This is great. It's a funny thing. Yeah, it makes me think of I think it was Hurt Locker and the bomb defusing. It's like, wow, nice job, nice job with the defusing. And then, of course, ultimately you should be working on this issue that you say you're going to work on or pay attention to.

Tell me if this is your technical bullshit. Yes. Actually, I'm sorry, but I have another story. One of my clients told me this is a true story. He said, on his wedding day, and I say this, no offense, but particularly for men, on his wedding day, his father-in-law said, let's go for a walk. Okay. He said, son, I got two things for you to master.

Your master, just these two things, your marriage is going to be great. He says, okay, pops, I'll buy it. What you got? He goes, you're really sorry, and you're going to work on it. I imagine that. That'll give you a lot of payoff over a lot of miles. What is another term that I'd never heard before being exposed to your work? Normal marital hatred. I got this from Ed Tronick, infant observational researcher.

Adalong with Barry Brasleton was the first generation, you know, since Freud, What we said about child development all came from listening to adults. And we didn't watch any kids. And here's one of our first people who actually plunked a video camera in front of mothers and infants and then fathers and infants. And actually look at what happened. And what he came up with, I borrowed an essential to RLT, which is the essential rhythm of all relationships is harmony, disharmony, and repair.

closeness disruption and a return to closeness that's where the skills come in how to move from disruption to repair Our culture doesn't teach it. Our culture doesn't even acknowledge a good relationship is all harmony. Just like a good body is yours. A good body is like a 20-year-old's body. A good sex life is like what you had when you were two weeks into the relationship. No. All harm is bullshit. Bullshit. One of the things I like about you, Tim, is you tell the truth. You know what?

You go to a cocktail party, and you go, oh, there's Harry and Shirley. They're in their 80s. They still have sex. They love each other. One of these days, I like to go to a cocktail party, and you're, there's Harry and Shirley. They actually split up for a year. He fell in love with another woman. He couldn't take it because she was such a drunk, but then she got into AA and got sober. And the two of them are really doing reasonably well, aren't they cute?

Just once I'd like to hear that. So we don't deal with reality, you know. The father of couples therapy back in the 50s said the day you turned to the person who was next to you, it was assumed it was your marriage, and he would say, this is a mistake. I've been had. This is not the person I fell in love with. That said, Framo, is the first day of your real marriage. So here's what I want to say about this harmony. Ready? It hurts. As in dark.

You can really, really feel like, what the hell did I get myself into? This is such a disappointment. And guess what? Your partner's probably feeling that about you too. So I talk about normal marital hatred when you're in that dark face. You hate your partner. That's okay. Don't kill yourself or her. That's okay. I'll teach you how to get through it. But it's part of the deal for many of us.

Here's what I like to say. I've been going around the world talking about normal marital hatred for, oh my god, what, 30 years. This is true. Not one person has ever come backstage and said, Terry, what do you mean by that? It's okay kids. Don't sweat it. You can get through it. It's normal. Relax. just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show

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what are some of the first steps or tools that you would recommend to someone listening who agrees with what you're saying but has had no models for repair, has never learned how to

use any type of approach for repair. And this is something that Your direct help and then also your books have really helped me with because I did not grow up in a household with repair, right? It was basically one person screams, then the other person goes to fix, which they don't really want to do, but it's their...

their attempt to basically quell the disaster and fury, and that's it. Then everybody's kind of upset, and it never gets addressed. That was the model growing up. What do you suggest to people who want to start with repair? You know, of course I'm tempted to say, so are you a screamer or a fixer, but I won't. I'll leave that on. I'm a fixer. I'm not a screamer. Oh, okay. Lucky for your partner. The problem is the resentment that builds up. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so repair.

First of all, I like to say I have a number of bitter pills to swallow. But if you swallow them, things will be a lot better in your life. And here's one of them. Repair is a one-way street. Everybody gets that wrong. It's not a dialogue. It's not, well these are your issues with me, well these are my issues with you. No. You have your turn but not then. Take turns. So if you have a disgruntled partner you are at their service. That's the first thing to master.

You know, I like to say, Tim, you're at the customer service window. Somebody comes to the customer service window and says, my microwave doesn't work. They don't want to hear you say, well my toaster doesn't work. They don't want your excuses. Fix the goddamn microwave. Tend to your partner and bring them back into repair with you. Tend to them. Put yourself aside and tend to them. What does that look like? Two things. First, do I get it? Listen.

Don't argue. Don't rebut. Empty the well. I'm sorry you feel bad. That's beautiful. Compassion. I'm sorry you feel bad. I love you. I don't want you to feel bad. Help me understand what feels bad. What's it like for you? Okay, and then you reflect. This is what I hear you say. Did I get it? Yeah, good enough. Good. Two. Is there something I could say or do right now that would be helpful? What would you like?

Who says that? And then if it's anything short of jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, give it to him. Be generous. Those are the basics. I could be more specific. Let me ask you.

a follow-up, which is related to this. When someone is attempting to do this, but they're having trouble biting their tongue because You ask what's upsetting someone, or... You ask them to describe their feelings. And they say, well, when you did this, this, and this, and you disagree with their assessment of reality. We already talked about where objective reality doesn't exist. But nonetheless, it could trigger visceral response.

What is your advice to people who struggle with that? It's like, that isn't a reflection of reality. Come on. And they want to rebut, but they're not supposed to. How would you suggest they table it? Like, what should they say to themselves? Or do you have any other pieces of advice? Well, we both know you're a nut. Let's investigate exactly what kind of nut you are.

Let's get curious. And actually, let's get compassionate. You know, one of the things I say is, no one's a nut to themselves. You know, the paranoid who's crouched under the desk because the Russians have put germs in the ventilating system. Knows that we're all gonna die and if you know that there are germs you'd be under there with them. No one doesn't make sense to themselves That don't make sense to you.

So let go of you and see if you can enter into the world of the person. When you show up to our interview with a t-shirt, these are the rules of speaking. I make up. We teach people to say what I make up is. No objective reality. What I make up is, you have a very casual feeling about this interview. Don't you know that you're talking to the great Terry Real? I've had a little formality and I feel really insulted.

All right, you're sitting there going, fuck you, give me a break. If we were partners, You would take a breath and you would go, okay, help me understand. What is it about the t-shirt that was so upsetting to you? And then, okay, so you think it was disrespectful. Did I get that right?

It's like, I know you're a nut. I know that Russians didn't put germs in the ventilating system, but I want to understand you. But I'm sorry that hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to be overly informal. And then if you really want an A+, This is really parking your ego at the door. I can understand how you might feel like that. And really what it is, is I can understand Pran thinking the nutty things you think.

If you think that way, that you would feel like that. So give it to them. Be generous. I can understand how you might feel like that. Is there something I could say or do that would help you feel better? Got it. All right. Very helpful.

I wanted to shift gears just a little bit, and we can go in a lot of different directions. We can also come back to repair, because as you said already, I mean, this is practically universally neglected in terms of any type of...

education that people tend to receive, but we'll park that for a second. I wanted to know what types of deal breakers exist when you work with And that could include addictions, psychiatric conditions, etc. But I wanted you to maybe run us through what that list looks like because I might want to double click on a few of them. so if you go to my website and i'm supposed to put in a plug for social media you can follow me may i say how of course let me get it right you can follow me at

All socials at capital R real capital T Terry capital R real. So at real Terry real. Or you can go to my website, TerryReal.com. Anyway, so I have an article about this. Should I stay or should I go? And the tool I use is what I call a relational reckoning. It's a question you ask yourself. Here's the question. Am I getting enough in this relationship to make grieving what I'm not getting worth my while? Let me say that again.

Am I getting enough in this relationship to make the pain of what's missing okay with me? And if the answer is yes, it is okay, then stop whining and embrace what's good. You know, work the change to get more, but embrace what's good and stop walking around like a big angry victim. If the answer is no, it's not enough, then do something about it.

Lean in and fight. And if it doesn't work, drag your partner to hopefully an RLT therapist. They're the ones I believe in and get an ally and get some help. And if that doesn't work, you're done. So, okay. So in answering the question, what's a deal breaker? Let me be clear. Deal breakers come only after you've dragged your partner to a couple's therapist and one that actually helps.

And you know, you've heard me say, I don't think most do, but get one that will sign with you and be an ally and take that person on. Okay, deal breakers. Basically, do they want to work or not? If you want to work and they don't,

you could be done. And that could be an addiction, could be sexual acting out, could be anger, could be lying, could be withholding and passive aggression. But if you're not getting what you want, And the truth of the matter is your partner isn't going to do the work of giving you more of what you want. You're done and there are a lot of variations on that obviously

If somebody's got an active addiction and they don't want to work on it, I would not. And people do. People go to Al-Anon and manage, but I'd prefer you break up. If somebody's a rager... who are mistreating you, if they violate contracts, particularly monogamy, if they're chronic liars, and if they have an untreated psychiatric condition anxiety depression and then this is interesting and I would really not trust yourself I would only trust a professional if there's a

massive difference and the maturity level of the two people, the evolution of the two people. the immaturity of the unevolved one will start to feel too painful to the more mature one and they should leave and find a different part.

So when you, I guess a few questions related to everything you just said. The first is, I have to imagine that in many instances, it's one partner who not necessarily drags the other person, but convinces them to do therapy. They're not equally enthusiastic about perhaps being in front of the therapist. So I would imagine there's a grace period of sorts to...

enlist the other person. One session. How do you do that? If one person is more resistant or... and the other person is the one who's more enthused who sort of initiated that first session. Let's throw a carrot instead. I talk about leverage, negative and positive leverage. Tim, your partner is saying do this, this, and this. She's pretty fed up. Are you fed up, partner of Tim? Yeah, I'm fed up. How fed up are you exactly?

Do you believe her? Why should he believe you? And what I'm doing is I'm amplifying the negative consequences. There they are, but you're not looking at them. So my first move is to empower your partner. to be firm and speak up to you and i use that as leverage to get your interest. So this is the negative thing that I can help you avoid. And here's the positive thing I can deliver. Would you like a happier, warmer, sexier partner? Okay. And if you have kids, this is a big one.

Hey Tim, what kind of father did you have? What kind of father do you want to be? I got bad and good news. If you don't do this work, you're gonna do some version of what got done to you to them. You wanna do that? Would you like to be a better father than the one you grew up with?

Okay, well, you've got to let me help you. And a lot of, particularly men, who won't do... It's hard work, this work. They won't do it for themselves. They won't do it for their witchy wives. They will do it to spare their children. So I get buy-in. And it's a combination of this is what's going to happen to you if you don't change and this is what could happen for you if you do. Here's the consequence, here's the reward.

And when you're talking about deal breakers, could you just clarify in what sense they are deal breakers? Does it mean that you will not work with them as clients until they address one of those deal breakers? For instance, they have addiction to... alcohol or gambling or whatever it might be. I found it interesting that you mentioned the anxiety and depression because one of the topics I wanted to talk to you about is male depression. And I guess... I'm curious.

If you work with some of those in tandem or if People are kind of left to their own devices to figure it out. No, never. Never do that. I never confront somebody and then let them swing in the wind. I'm always right next to you, telling you, okay. This is what you're doing that ain't working. Let me take your hand and teach you what does work. And that's different than a lot of other therapies. We roll up our sleeves and get granular.

Tim, this isn't you, I'm just, Tim, do you notice that your face is kind of frozen when you talk and you're speaking a monotone? And your wife is out of her mind right now because nobody's ever said this to you, but she's bored as hell next to you. This is what I want you to do as we learn for you to start speaking about your feelings. I want you to go like this with your face. Animate it.

Oh, yeah. Let me see a little oomph here. I mean, that's what I call micro-coaching. And we roll up our sleeves and get right next to you and teach you how to do it better. We call them preconditions. addiction, acting out, psychiatric conditions. acting out either violence or sexual acting out. We will not take couples if there's domestic violence.

You go off to a safety program, you go off to a perpetrator program. I don't ask people to tell the truth to power if it's dangerous. You know, safety for... about the others Sexual acting out, addictions, psychiatric disorders. RLT therapists will meet with the couple, but only to talk about the issues. What are you going to do about your depression? What are you going to do about...

You're womanizing. How are we going to settle this? The idea is it would be bullshit for me to pretend that I can help you and your partner get closer while you're still engaged in this stuff. So sobriety first. I will meet with a couple, but to deal with what you're not dealing with. Then we can work on your relationship.

So let's double-click on your first book. I don't want to talk about it because I know...

Peter Tia, who's an old friend of mine, of course, very well-known doc these days, is a huge fan of this book. I have not yet read it. I apologize for that. But I would love for you to perhaps describe what people get wrong about male depression or we could dive directly into covert depression because I'm wondering how many of these preconditions might be explained by depression as opposed to being separate problems.

First of all, for those who haven't, please read Peter's book, Outlive. It's great. And the last chapter is about his work with me. and Esther Perel about his own psychological work. And also, if I may, Peter had a podcast that we did together, and he talked about his work with me. It was very moving. So look those two things up. Male depression. When I wrote that book it's 30 years old. It's selling as well as my new books but it's really been a keeper.

The depression was seen as a woman's disease, and I argued against that. And what I said is that a lot of men have the same kind of depression that we normally think of. I call it overt depression. But a lot of men, unlike women, have what I call covert depression. You don't see the depression. You see what the man is doing to defend against the depression. And many of the problems we think of as typically male may be fueled.

by depression. So self-medication, rage, philandering, radical withdrawal, all of these may be a symptom of an underlying depression. A lucky guy gets what we call a dual diagnosis. Forgive me, I can't be. You know the joke. You're terminal. I want a second opinion. Okay, you're ugly. It's like, okay, the bad news is you're addicted, and the worst news is underneath the addiction, you've got a depression.

Lucky guy gets a dual diagnosis. Unlucky guy gets one or the other. If you stumble into an addictions person, they'll clean up your addiction, but they won't deal with them. If you go to a psychiatrist, they'll give you a mess for your depression, but you're drinking like a fish. First you have to deal with the defenses When they settle down and move into some level of sobriety Then the underlying depression comes that you don't even have to go after it. It comes up

I say the cure for a covert depression is an overt depression. Once the pain comes up, you deal with it. But I think part of the reason why that book has lasted for 30 years is there's a third piece, which is not only do men express depression differently, but the ideology is different. Girls and women get depressed because they famously lose their voices and blame themselves and turn inward. Boys and men get depressed because of what I call normal boyhood trauma under patriarchy.

We are taught at three, four, five years old to deny our vulnerability, to disconnect from our feelings, to disconnect from others, all in the name of autonomy. we cut off half of our humanity. The feelings, the vulnerability, connection, really in some ways the most rich, nourishing parts of what it means to be a human. And that cutoff, which is imposed on boys, I have story after story, that cutoff is traumatic. and it also renders you isolated and lonely.

So there's a lot of trauma. That trauma becomes depression. That depression becomes acting out of self-medication. And if you really want to heal someone, you hit all three layers. First the defenses, then the depression, then the childhood trauma. How do you think about teasing out when, for instance, addiction is

paired with underlying depression, maybe downstream of it versus independent? Because I suppose there's a risk of Asking a barber if you need a haircut in the sense you go to the surgeon, they tell you you need surgery. You go to the fill-in-the-blank, right? They tell you that you need whatever their specialty happens to be. Just like you mentioned with getting the single diagnosis versus the dual diagnosis.

So how do you determine if something is actually paired with underlying depression, since that's the sort of example we're talking about in men, versus independent? it's really simple when the person starts to get sober do they get depressed

And the depression that they get looks just like psychiatric depression. I see what you're saying. So if they're a workaholic and they pare that down, does the depression then have room to breathe and express itself, basically, when the coping mechanism is removed in some capacity? yeah as opposed to you remove the coping mechanism and oh my god I'm so much better however you can cut out the middle piece depression But 99 out of 100, you go from sobriety to trauma.

You have to deal with the underlying trauma. My great mentor, Pia Melody, a great legend in the 12-step community, ran the meadows for 70 years. First the addiction, then the personality issues, and then underlying childhood trauma. If you don't deal with the underlying trauma, it's going to be hard for that person to stay sober. What type of...

approaches or modalities do you favor for working with trauma when you get to that layer? We like to do trauma work with your partner sitting next to you and we're unique in that. And I've got to tell you, I've argued against what I call toxic individualism in this culture, and psychotherapy is up to its eyeballs.

in supporting individualism and supporting patriarchy. I want to ask you about this word patriarchy because you have so many messages that I think I want to convey to not just a male audience, but I have a very large male audience, and I feel like patriarchy can be a very loaded term.

and that there are matriarchal or matrilineal, there are patrilineal societies, both of which function pretty well. And I'm just wondering how you think about using versus not using that term? Because I feel like there's a risk that you might turn off men who actually need to hear a lot of what you have to say. How do you think about that?

It is what it is. So let me talk about what I mean, and then we can talk about the marketing of it. I'm making a decision between what I call political patriarchy and psychological patriarchy. And political patriarchy is the oppression of women by men. It's all over the globe and it's deadly in some cultures. It's a very real thing. Psychological patriarchy. It is basically traditional masculinity writ large out double back. But psychological patriarchy, traditional masculinity.

Guys, listen up. Is a system that does damage to everybody. Everybody and does deep deep damage to our relationships. What do I mean by that? Let me just take traditional masculinity. The essence of traditional masculinity under patriarchy is invulnerability. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are, the more vulnerable you are, the more girly you are, and that is not a good thing.

And of course, we both know there's been a huge resurgence. You know, a backlash. Don't tell us we're bad people. I'm not talking about not being powerful. I'm talking about not being dominant. There's a difference. Rian Isler talks about power over versus power with. I want men to be powerful. I also want women to be powerful. I want all of us to be whole.

And what patriarchy does is what Carol Gilligan calls the binary. These human qualities are feminine. A good man has none of them. These human qualities are masculine. A good woman has none of them. And it's what Olga Silverstein called the halving process. You take a whole human being, you draw a line down the middle, half of humanity say goodbye to. That is not healthy.

That's not good for anybody. So vulnerability, for example, what we do, the way we quote-unquote turn boys into men under patriarchy is through disconnection. We teach them to disconnect from their feelings. There's hard research. Three, four, five. Little boys have more feelings than little girls, actually. They're more sensitive. But by 3, 4, or 5, they know better than to open their mouths and say anything. They've read the code. So no vulnerability, no emotion.

Not too connected to others. You're independent. Great. Here's what I say. I would say it to you if you showed up in my office. Tim, the things you learned as a boy about what makes a good man are the very qualities that will ensure that by today's standards you'll be seen as a lousy husband. Across the board, I'll just deal with heterosexuals for a moment, women want men's heart.

They want connection. Tell me what the fuck you're feeling. Open your mouth and share with me. When I come to you with a feeling, be compassionate and not dismissive. Well guess what? All of that goes against what was imposed on you as a boy about how to handle yourself as a man. But one of the things I say is,

Moving men, women, non-binary folk into true intimacy is synonymous with moving them beyond traditional gender roles, beyond patriarchy. Men have to move into vulnerability and open their heart. women have to move into assertion with love, not with harshness, but with love. And doing that on both sides moves beyond anything that this culture teaches us. It's pioneer work.

All right. Thank you for unpacking that. We might come back to it. I'm happy to talk about that more. I have follow-up questions, but I don't want to take us off track with the trauma question because you were talking about one of the...

I suppose defining and unusual characteristics by conventional therapy standards is that RLT does trauma work with the partner present. That's where I then took us on a side quest with the question about patriarchy. As a relational therapist who argues against exaggerated individualism,

Look, here's the thing. We've never wanted more from our relationships than we do right now. It's historically new. We don't think historically, so we don't get this. But our parents, grandparents, a companionable marriage was plenty good enough. But we want more. We want real intimacy and sustaining. We want to hold hands, walk on the beach, have heart to heart, have great sex in our 60s and 70s. We want to be lifelong lovers. This is Lou. Marriage was never built for that.

Don't go into Western literature and find me a passion at marriage. All passion is adulterous. It's new. Yeah, it's new. But we live in an anti-relational culture. That's patriarchy. We live in a culture that's about up, down, win, lose, right, wrong, no. We have to wake up to ecological wisdom. We're a team. We're in this together. What do you need, honey? It's in my interest to keep you happy. That's the new world order.

And you know, not to dis on men, but I do get these big burly guys and they say, why should I have to work so hard to please my wife? And I go, knock, knock. You live with her. It's in your interest. That's what I teach people. It's in your interest to learn how to do this, though. And also, just say, for clarification, that you mean to keep someone happy, but in a... interdependent not codependent way right because it's easy to go into that fixing mode

And people think they're making someone happy. You're right. And I didn't say it's in your interest to make them happy. What I really say is it's in your interest to take care of your biosphere. If you ride in the one-up, at some point we should talk about this. If you're more in the one-up and you're more entitled, demanding, dominant, you don't listen, you've got to come down off your high horse.

If you're riding the one down like a fixer, oh my God, oh my God, my partner's upset, I'm a codependent, you need to take a breath. What your biosphere needs is for you to be assertive. And be more. Conflectual. And fight a little more. Stand up for yourself. So you have to correct what's off. It's not one size fits all. It's what's off for you. If you're one up, come down. If you're one down, like a fixer, then assert yourself and take some risk.

But both are vulnerability. When we think of vulnerability, we think of sensitivity. But for a fixer like you, standing up for yourself and, oh my God, they may get mad at me, that's vulnerability for you. So what does my biosphere need? You know, Carol Gilligan says there can be no voice without relationship. So come down on your high horse if you're dominant. There can be no relationship without voice.

So I would work with someone like you and I would have you, okay, I want you to identify what you're feeling. I want you to identify what you want and need right now. Don't worry about pleasing them. What does Tim want? And I want to teach you how to articulate that in a way that might get listened to. May I hypothesize about you? Sure, go for it. This could be wrong, but here we go. What I make up, as we say. So he has this dominant father, I'm assuming father. Yeah, his father.

and this codependent, unhappy mother. This is what I call the unholy triad of patriarchy. You'll wonder why so many men are love avoidant or avoiders. Well, here's why. You have an irresponsible or shut down father. You have an unhappy mother. You have, and I guarantee this was you, a sweet, sensitive, big hearted young boy. The mother doesn't have to do a thing to amish him, to use him. That boy looks at his unhappy mother and says, what can I do to make her happy?

And he lets go of what he wants and needs and becomes her caretaker emotionally. Grows up. And his template for relationship is, I'm a caretaker. I'm a fixer. I got to take care of them. My needs, nobody gives a shit. So what that breeds, maybe or maybe not, is what we call a Lava Boydin.

They live behind walls. Because relationships mean I surrender my, you know, my needs and caretake them. I'm a human, so I need relationships. I pull them in. But once they're in, I've got to keep them in arms and they'll eat me alive. So you're laid behind walls to protect yourself. That's that adaptive child. How am I doing? I mean, you're 100% spot on. I think at the very end, I had a question in my mind as to...

whether I have those types of walls because I don't know what they might look like. So perhaps can you give me an example of what those might look like and then I could tell you. How good are you at identifying what you want in a relationship and assertively going after it? I'd say pretty good at identifying. Could be a lot better at proactively going after it and requesting it. Tend to be very indirect. That would be accurate to say for sure.

Yeah, and the cost of that indirectness is you don't get your dance mat and then resentment grows and then whatever. So I am making progress, making progress. I've improved a lot. I can feel that, by the way. I can feel that. I would teach you... The cure for love avoidance is negotiation. I would teach you to identify what you want and lean in and have the daring break the rules and say, hey, you know what? I don't want to eat Indian tonight. I want to eat Japanese.

And the last two nights we ate what you wanted and tonight we're doing Japanese. Well, I don't like that, Tim. Well, okay. And, you know, for your fixers, I say let the bad thing happen. You know, that adaptive child part of you is petrified of conflict. You don't want to make dad angry and you don't want to make mom unhappy.

You're a fixer, you're a good boy, and you want to bring peace. Well, this is where trauma enters into our relationship. That adaptive child part of you has no model for healthy conflict. It's either yelling and screaming or giving in. and you know we children we look at mom and dad we go i'll be that one

You looked at mom. I'll be that one. I don't want to be dad. I don't want to be that aggressive. So you don't have a healthy template for healthy aggression. Didn't have that model. Yeah, me too. I had a violent father. I would teach you how to have healthy conflict and feel good about that. But it would be very scary initially.

So you nailed a couple of things that I want to... So the first, and this will come back into the patriarchy thing too, because what you do, Terry, is so powerful and so important. I want as many men to listen to it as possible, which is why I'm talking about the patriarchy piece.

It's not because I disagree with a lot of what you're saying, although I do have some clarifying questions. So one thing you said is you hypothesized, right, the story you make up is that I was very, very sensitive or I was a very sensitive... young kid, which is true. I was very sensitive, much more so than my schoolmates. And then for a host of reasons, really also including some pretty terrible childhood abuse, not from my family, ended up trying to...

Yeah, I've written about it extensively, but yeah, maybe another time. But the upshot of it is that I turn that off, right? Emotions, insensitivity, reliability. So I completely compartmentalize that, locked it, put it away. And that continued to be the case, and I paid a lot for that. There was some upside. I had a very high pain tolerance. I could handle certain things. I could be very aggressive and take a lot of shots in the course of doing various things.

competitive sports business whatever so i had some quote-unquote success from that but there was a lot of collateral damage and then around 2013 for a number of reasons, including a relationship I thought was going to end and marriage and kids coming to a halt. Decided to reopen the doors and sort of reactivate that sensitivity. So that's been a project for the last 12 years or so. And courageous both. Thank you. And so that's been an incredibly...

rewarding and challenging path thus far, and it continues. I don't regret having done that. My question, I suppose, and this might seem a little out of left field, is that When you're talking about men being available to their partners and emotionally attuned, and I know I'm using different vocabulary, I agree with all of that, but I suppose some people listening might feel like men and women might be...

positioned as equivalents in a lot of ways, sort of emotional doppelgangers, and I'm just wondering if you feel like there are any patterns in terms of male and female differences that you spot again and again that don't need to be fixed, that they're actually just whether intrinsic or otherwise, sort of differences to embrace. And I'm just curious what your thoughts are there. I tend to think there are, but I'm curious what your position is on that. I don't know. Who are we?

Beyond our socialization, I don't know. What I do know is that the bifurcation of men and women under patriarchal culture, which is virtually ubiquitous in the world, is so strong. You gave up your sensitivity because your sensitivity was punished. And the playground is the greatest enforcer of traditional roles. You learn. Three, four, five-year-old boys Learn to keep their mouths shut or they're going to get punished.

And for the guys out there, I gotta say, for a girl to cross into boy land is like, no, she'll get some shit. For a boy to cross into girl land evokes violence. emotional, and I'm sorry, at times, even physical violence. It's dangerous to break the rules. It's dangerous to stand up for being whole in this culture. And I talk to parents about having their boys be literate, gender literate. Can I tell you a story? Of course. I love your stories.

So when my kids were little, I've got two kids, one's that massive jock, And one is a gay doctor, ballet dancer, who danced professionally. Anyway, they're both amazing and very, very different kids. And we went off to vacation, like the Dominican Republic, and they had cornrows. put in their hair like the kids did that. My little one, Alexander, who turned out to grow up to be gay,

did his whole head in cornrows, and they were like green, no, pink and gold, his favorite color. His older brother, Justin the jock, Had a couple of like Keith Richards cool rock and roll, you know. All right, it's time to go to school. We're back from vacation. Then I said about ago. Here's the deal If you go to school without in your hair, you may get crap from the other kid

If you don't go to school with that hair, you may feel like you've missed out on expressing yourself. And it could be that kids are going to love that stuff in your hair. I don't know. What do you guys want to do? It's not my decision, it's yours. And we talked to boys about, do you want to express yourself and deal with the crap you're going to get?

Or do you want to comply and deal with the inauthenticity of that? It's your choice, not ours. I don't make those choices for my boys, but it's an on-the-table conversation. So they've all said, sure. And as the older one puts his foot in the car and goes, I can't do it. And we wind up cutting his hair. His brother, Mr. Pink and Gold, looks like the toast of the town. But it could have gone another way. So I would teach young Tim. how to negotiate their sensitivities

So that when they were welcomed, they were overt. And when they were unwelcome, you put up a shield of toughness to protect yourself. And having some sense of which moment is when.

How did you navigate that with your boys? Like, how did you raise your boys? I'd be so curious to hear more about it because there is a time to, and it's not limited to, men of course or boys but I think there's a lot of value placed and I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing on competition and winning and so on and so forth and I'm just so curious since you mentioned the jock in particular

How did you think about raising those two boys, and did you raise them any differently? I did. No, they were both raised similarly to one another, but they're very different from the culture at large. It's funny, we just had our first relational life therapy annual conference, and my son's got on stage with me. And the older one, Justin, the doc, was very funny. He looked at the crowd and he said, you know, being the son of two thereabouts.

the way I grew up you want to talk to me about how your nanny had sex with you when you were five or your deepest anxiety I'm there no problem it took me into my twenties to learn how to sit on a bar still have a beer and talk to the guys about a game. Nobody's perfect. You know, the thing is, I want whole people. And going back to people who may be turned off by what I'm saying, it absolutely kills me when people describe my work as Terry's trying to feminize men. Just, no.

I want whole human beings. I want smart, sexy, competent women. I want powerful, big-hearted, compassionate men. We don't need to have ourselves in compliance to the world order. We can be whole. And the issue is whole and adaptable. What is this moment calling for? And I've got to tell this story. This is one of my favorite stories. Please.

So I had the privilege of going to Maasai land in Tanzania with another family who knew this particular compound, these guys, very well. It took 10 hours of driving to get to them. They were remote. And this is the real deal. I mean, you know, we're talking, you know, earlobes down here, and everybody, and they have spears, and they kill lions, and these are real warriors. So I had a men's group with the elders for four nights running and we talked about everything. So I go like this to them.

In the United States, there's a debate about what makes a good Marani warrior, all one word. What makes a good Marani? Some people say a good Marani is sensitive and thoughtful and kind. Some people say a good Marani is fierce and tough and no bullshit. What do you guys think? Which is it?

True story, Tim. So this little guy's got to be four foot three and a thousand years old, crooks his finger, and he sounds like he's totally pissed at me. And it goes from Messiah to Swahili to English to Swahili. And this is what he says. I have no interest in talking to you about what makes a good Marani. I could care less. But I will talk to you about what makes a great Marani.

He said, when the moment calls for fierceness, a good Marani will kill you. Don't mess with him. I mean, he'll kill you. When the moment calls for tenderness, a good Marani will lay down his sword and shield and be sweet like a baby. A great Marani is a man who knows which moment is when. That's good. Yeah, that's very good. I want whole people who can adapt to what's in front of them. That's health. How did you and your wife think about...

changing how you would raise your kids from how you were raised. How do you think about that? Just be curious to hear you approach that from whatever angle makes sense. Well, as you probably know, both my wife and I came from terrible trauma. Terribly violent families. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. 40 years. Here's probably my single most famous quote. You know, they say it's the height of attention to quote yourself. Family pathology.

rolls from generation to generation like a fire in the woods, taking down everything in its path until one person in one generation has the courage to turn and face the flames. That person brings peace to their ancestors and spares the children that follow. Belinda and I made a rock-solid commitment that we were not going to leak. the kind of reactivity and violence that we grew up with on our kids and we didn't we did it on each other

We had a real rock'em sock'em marriage for years. We were both fighters. But we spared the children. And they know that. And they're really robust, radiantly healthy. Boys, I am the son of an angry, depressed father. He was the son of an angry, depressed father. I have two boys. Neither of them say that, and neither were their children. And that is the greatest achievement of my life. It's an amazing achievement, and I'd love to get a little more...

Not microscopic, but granular in the sense that A lot of people say they want to change. A lot of people have New Year's resolutions and they say, you know what, I'm not going to be the diabetic my parent was because I can fix it, I can change it, and they don't change. So I'm wondering how, especially since you had the rock'em sock'em. experience in your marriage? What were the actions you took or the strategies you had to check yourselves? And

ensure that you weren't letting those older inherited behaviors bleed into your parenting? Well, first of all, Get help. Men don't get help. I said a man is about as likely to get help for depression as he has to ask for directions. You know, if you come from a tough background, I say this to the people I work with all the time. You can't come from what you came from. And have the happy, healthy family you want without doing a shitload of therapy, a shitload of work.

Men's groups, women's groups, 12-step groups, therapy, but therapy that works. But the first thing I want to say is, and thank God you don't have to do this on your own because you won't know what to do. Get help. And get help that helps. So you guys had help? Years and years of spiritual work. I've been meditating over 50 years, and all stripe of therapy work. There's a saying, therapists are people who need to be in therapy 40 hours a week. I became a professional therapist.

to heal myself. And then I became a family therapist to learn how to have a relationship. I mean, I was so far behind the starting gate. In 12-step, one of these folks say, the last phase is gratitude. I was so on the road. Unlike a lot of people, if I did my defaults, I'd be dead now. That's true. A lot of my friends I grew up with are dead. If I did what I learned, I'd be dead. I had no choice. but to go under or reconfigure myself. And as a gift.

The same with Belinda. And we are. We're reconstructed human beings. Belinda calls us retreads. You know, like a tire. And I love reconstructed human beings. We have a lot of depth. And if I can do it, you can do it. There's a way to do it, no matter where you come from. But you've got to be willing to do the work, and it's hard goddamn work.

What do your group therapy... experiences look like. I remember, I don't think you would mind me saying this, I'll double check with him after we finish recording, but... Kevin went through a group, I want to say, for lack of a better way to describe it, sort of therapy experience with seven or eight people. He didn't tell me anything. And he didn't tell me anything about the content, of course.

But it had a really big impact on him. And I'm curious what the format was, what the rules looked like for a men's group like that. We start off with check-ins. How's everybody doing? What's on your mind? And then either we move into a theme that emerges So my practice is ten full-pay people and four pro bono at any given time. And the ten who pay, they tend to be high rollers. So here's a group of some of the bigger mover and shaker guys in the world right now.

We had a hilarious time talking for two hours about how we were all petrified of our wives. So sometimes a theme will emerge. Fathers, anger. self-medication, being afraid of our wife. And or as the check-in evolves, one person will like pop. And I'll go, Dave. do trauma work with you we're not going to do it just go around anyway but if you're in the group at some point i would say i want to go back

to that little boy who learned how to be a fixer. How old were you when you first adopted that? Four or five, whatever it was. Close your eyes, go into your body, find that four-year-old boy. Ask him to come out and sit in a chair facing you. What's he look like? How do you feel toward him?

What do you want to say to him? What does he need to hear from you? What's it like for him? How does he respond to what you just said? And I get into a dialogue between you and this little boy. Of course, it's very emotional. And it ends always with you saying to that little part of you, I'm here now. I can take care of you. Your angry partner may not be available, and that's frightening to you. But I'm available. We don't need her. Return to me.

And that's transformative. So I do deep trauma work in the men's group, or we do a theme, or we just all hang out and talk about what's going on in our lives. Any or all of the above. Are there any guidelines for how people can respond to what someone else says or discloses? I'm just thinking there are sometimes rules in organizations like the Entrepreneurs' Organization.

and in forums and things like this in these smaller sized groups if somebody was Thinking about creating something like this for themselves, and it would be good to have a professional involved of course but are there any other rules or guidelines that you think are helpful in these types of groups? As you know, I have 8 million sayings, and here's one of them. Generally speaking, unsolicited advice doesn't go very well. Yeah. So... We all learn to have good boundaries in these groups.

which we can double back and talk about. But core principle of RLT is what we call full respect living. I may disagree with how you think. But I hold you in respect. It's a part of the culture of the group that we speak to one another with humility. This is what I'm making up to him.

And with respect. No one in these groups said, motherfucking asshole, how can you do this? We just don't talk to each other that way. And I never had to make that explicit. It just happens. When you were talking about...

identifying the age of the little boy and having him sit in the chair. For some people listening, they might hear echoes of, say, internal family systems, IFS. Does your approach, is it similar to that? Does it differ from it? How do you think about that? Let's do this briefly because this could be a whole. There are some similarities. For example, there's a three-part Part of the psyche, what I call the wise adult, has some correlation to what they call self.

What he calls protectors and managers has some correlation to what I call the adaptive child, and his exiles my wounded child. So there's some similarities, but there are also some very distinct differences. I don't believe that the adaptations that you learned as a kid are all defensive, are all about protecting the world.

And I believe there are bad parts. Dick is almost a religious fervor that there's no such thing as a bad part. No, there are grandiose retaliatory parts of you that you really need to corral. And there's also entitlement and privilege, and it's not all. grouped around protecting a vulnerability that's We think that in psychiatry too. We think all grandiose behavior is a defense against

shame. Now, some grandiose behavior is just entitlement and hatred. That's part of our humanity. I don't think Hitler killed millions of Jews because he was protecting a vulnerable part of himself. There's more to it than that. So we take on some of the issues of grandiosity and entitlement and some of the less savory parts of our humanity in a way that I don't think IFS quite does.

Broadly speaking, do you think there are any new or particular challenges with modern relationships? Whether it be dating or marriage, anything that is relatively new on the scene, in your opinion? Well, polyamory is interesting. Yeah, let's talk about it. Fire away. Berlin and I have spent three months in Costa Rica amongst the young expats who can't find a monogamous couple anywhere. And polyamory is a real challenge. Monogamy is the challenge too.

I used to say, monogamy is unnatural and open marriage is like, wow, hold on. So people trying to, people experimenting with different models of intimacy. And, okay, open the doors and... Yeah, I remember... I was chatting with someone who had experimented with every variant of

polyamory and she referred to it as poly agony. That was her label for it. But I would love to know Are there challenges for monogamy now that didn't seem to exist 20 or 30 years ago or that are just much more exaggerated now? Yeah, a number of things. First of all, We men are trying to figure out what the hell we are. And...

Someone once described my work as women have had a revolution and now men have to deal with it and no one knows what to do. Women have had a revolution and they are speaking up and they are insisting on intimacy from us guys. in ways that are exactly in conflict with our traditional role as men. You know, Eric Erickson said, it's a sign of a healthy culture that socialization practices in childhood equip you to succeed in your adult role.

And it's the sign of a culture in transition when there's a disjuncture between the two. And for men, this is disjuncture. What traditional masculinity teaches you as a boy, whether you want it or not, often through punishment. by today's standards, will give you problems in your relationship. You've got to be vulnerable. You've got to open your heart. Literally, you have to reconfigure masculinity in order to be a good partner these days, and people need help with that.

The cultural response to feminism and women's empowerment has been a big backlash. You know, the manosphere and that sobering movie, adolescence. There's a big resurgence of I'm a man and I'm tired of being told I'm bad and go screw yourself. ain't gonna work the toothpaste ain't going back in the tube

So what I say is I don't want women to stand down. I want men to stand up and meet these new demands. Look, I've been saying this for 40 years and research has finally caught up with me. Relationality, intimacy, open-hearted connection. The ace that we RLT therapists have in our back pocket is that's what we human beings are designed for. were designed to be intimate. Not being intimate

I know you do a lot of great work with health on your podcast. Not being intimate is as bad for your body as smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day. This is hard black and white research. We are born to be intimate. Moving beyond traditional gender roles is the only way to get there. So stop whining. Stand up and learn a few relational skills. It's good for you. It's good for your body. You'll live longer.

It's good for your marriage and it's good for your children. Let me help you learn how to do this better. That's revolutionary. You've got a lot of people out there. I'm so happy to be on this podcast with you truly. You got a lot of people out there. I'm mad as hell and I'm not putting up with it. We men need to reclaim our power. No. We need to open our hearts and listen. Here's a simple way. You don't like patriarchy. I teach the men I work with to learn to become family men.

here's how you're a family man you decentralize yourself i wrote this and i don't want to talk about it a boy's question of the world is what he got for me A man's question of the world is what's needed here. And I teach men to show up as men and not boys. What's needed here? You know, research on happiness is, I like black and white research. If you get a gift, you're happy. You get happier for a bit. If you give a gift, you're even happier and longer than if you get it.

What men need to understand is it's good for us. to be empowered, be assertive, and also to be connected and show up and ask ourselves what's needed here. How do I need to show up here? That's a man. I like that framing, the questions and how they differ for boys and men. It does, I think, perhaps to some listeners sound like men have a lot of heavy lifting to do, and women have had this revolution.

all is well in woman land. Is there such a thing as toxic femininity? Is there collateral damage to all these societal shifts? Yes. I'm glad you brought this up. Because in family therapy, we're talking about first and second order change. First order of change is just a rearrangement. You know, Tommy's truant. Yeah, Tommy may not be truant, and then Sally starts pooping her pants. It's like, okay, well, rearranging the furniture.

Second order change is a revolution. No kid has to be symptomatic. In our culture, there's a lot of what I call individual empowerment. I was weak. Now I'm strong. Go screw yourself. I am woman. I have found my voice. Hear me roar. No. And you get a lot of, I'm going to get into trouble, but too bad. You get a lot of people in that traditional feminine side of the equation. Doesn't matter what body you're in. You're a fixer on that feminine side.

The people on the feminine side move from disempowerment to individual empowerment. I call it, I was weak, now I'm strong, go screw yourself. And everybody will cheer. Mom, dad, therapist, 12-step sponsors, your man's group. No. Relational empowerment is the next step. I was weak. Now I'm strong. I'm going to go toe-to-toe with you. I'm going to tell you just what I want and need. Now listen to this.

What can I give you to help you to do that for me? Who sounds like that? We're a team. I love you. What do you need? Let's work together. That's the next step. And a lot of women, early stage feminism, move from disempowerment to individual empowerment. As a couples therapist, often the bane of my existence is an individual therapist who's individually empowered their client right out of a workable relationship.

Now, I was weak. Now I'm strong. I love you. We're a team. Let's roll up our sleeves and work on this together. That's the new world order.

So we've covered a lot of ground. I'm looking at all my notes. There's a lot that we, I'm sure, could cover, but are there any other tools that you would like to cover? Yes. I want to go back and talk about relational empowerment versus individual empowerment. Right. Because, here's how I say it, under patriarchy, you can either be connected

That's you, the fixer. Accommodating, self-sacrificing, peacemaking. Or you can be assertive. That's more traditionally quote-unquote masculine, independent, competent, aggressive. But you can't be both at the same time. Because power is power over. When you move into power, you break connection. That's individual empowerment. I was weak. Now I'm strong. I don't care how I sound. Just listen. No. If you do care how you sound, you're not going to get listened to.

I teach people, and particularly women in this one, or whoever's coming up from the one down, what I call loving power. And could you just, for the sake of revisiting, just describe one up, one down, one more time? Because people may not have gotten that.

It's what Pia called my great mentor, coming out from under the great lie that a human being could be inherently superior or inferior to another human being. Healthy self-esteem, which I have to teach people in this culture, comes from the inside out. You're here, you're worthy, you're lovable, you're a good human being because you're breathing, period. And your essential worth

It can't be added to, it can't be subtracted from. This is democracy. This is one person, one vote. We're all equal under the law until recently. Anyway, this is democracy. But we don't live like this. We live in the world of patriarchy which is one up one down, superior, inferior, better than, less than. all day long and the one down shame inferiority helplessness defectiveness unlovability For 50 years, my field has focused on helping people come up from that one down. Good.

but we've almost totally ignored helping people come down from the one-off. Entitlement, anger, judgment, contempt, self-righteous indignation, all forms of grandiosity. There's a lot of ink now being spilled on the so-called narcissistic. partner which is almost always a man and the idea is they can't be treated leave them bullshit that's more individual empowerment retreat grandiose man breakfast lunch and dinner and royalty

Come down from that entitlement. Come down from that contempt. It's poison for you. Let me teach you how to do it. You'll be happier. And we do. We effectively help people come down from the one-off. How do you do that? Just because people probably view this as very unfamiliar territory, as you mentioned, right? 50 years of bringing people up from one down. But how do you bring someone down a step back to baseline from grandiosity?

You have to wake them up. There are three phases to RLT. The first we call waking up the client, which is loving confrontation, which most therapy doesn't do. Once we get what you're doing that will never work, and if you're riding the one-up, your grandiosity, then we move into trauma work, what set you up to do that, and then we teach you skills. It's all three.

IFS doesn't teach skills, by the way. A lot of trauma people think you remove the trauma. You don't need to teach skill and wishful thinking. Anyway, so first we confront what you're doing. Then we go back to your childhood roots and where it came from. And help you with that. And then we teach you new skills to replace it with. Why should you come down from your rage? and dominance and control. Why?

well how's it working for you i talk about poison privilege and let me say this and this is particularly true for men you know god in her wisdom has given me access to the dream The real American dream is that if you have money and fame, it will transmute you. You'll become a demigod and you'll be happy. I treat those people, they're not happy.

They've done well in the world, but they're not happy between their eras and they're miserable to live with. Some so-called expert got on the television and talked about aspirational masculinity and Elon Musk. Go to the moon. Great. Be the richest man in the world. Great. You want to be married to that guy? You want to be that guy's kid? Good luck.

All of the people I treat are incredible successes in the world and a mess inside. Why? The first thing I teach is the difference between gratification and what I call relational joy. Gratification is pleasure, short-term pleasure. You make a million bucks, great. Pretty girl flirts with you, great. I like pleasure in its place. Relational joy, which many of the people, the grandiose people in particular, have no idea what I'm talking about.

Relational joy is the deeper down pleasure of just being there and being connected. And many of the grandiose people I work with simply don't know what relational joy is. They've lived their whole life for gratification. And it's empty. And they feel the emptiness. And the people they live with are fed up with them. And they certainly feel that. So what I have to offer is relational joy.

that's the ace in my pocket because that's what we're born for that's the only thing that will make you happy let me teach you to come down off your perch and enter into being a human being like the rest of us and let me teach you to really look at what you've been doing Can I tell you a story? Yes, always. A guy came in and he was quote-unquote depressed.

another one of these guys with five therapists under his belt nobody's been able to help him and he's on the break of divorce and i listen to him and i go i can't help you with your depression but i can save your marriage Okay. You know, you have a very, this is a guy, he literally go to work, come home, flop on the couch,

His wife would be running around. They'd all have dinner. She'd do the homework with the kids. She'd put them to bed. Then he'd slump off the bed and go to sleep. Get up the next day and go to work. And she was ready to divorce him. So you have a very mysterious depression. It goes into remission at 8.45 and it comes roaring back at 5.15. When you're at work, you manage to function. When you're at home, you're on the couch.

A million people have tried to help me with depression. I can't. I'm not going to try. You're depressed. Sorry. Been there. Here's what I want to tell you. That's true. Here's what I want to tell you. Says what? Get off the couch. Go do homework with your kids. Go help your wife with their dishes. You manage to pull yourself out of yourself from 9 to 5. You give yourself a pass when you get home. You're going to wind up divorced. And you're going to do great damage to your children.

And he looks at his wife. And he says, I realize I've really abandoned you in this family. And I made excuses for myself all these years. And he starts to cry. That's remorse. That's open-heartedness. I say it's come out of the coldness of outer space into the warmth of connection through remorse. oh my god i see what i've been doing to you i'm so sorry and i looked at him

And I said, as I say to so many people in that moment, I say to them, welcome to the planet Earth. Welcome to the human race. It's been really lonely up there, hasn't it?

Well, Terry, you have a lot of resources and a lot of books. Who should start where? In other words, Do you suggest people start with any particular book or resource? If they have a particular challenge or issue, where would you point them? How can we provide a roadmap for people who want to explore more of Terry Rail? Do the social media thing. At Real Terry Real. That covers all the social media at Realtary Real.

Go to my website, TerryRill.com. I'm pleased to say we have a lot of offerings now online for the general public. A course on self-esteem, a course on healthy boundaries, a course on relationship skills. We have little mini courses, How to Come Back from Infidelity. We have particular type of courses now that are followed up by online groups that you can join.

If you're coming back from infidelity, here's a three-hour workshop, and here's an ongoing group you can be part of. We're doing more and more of that. In terms of book, i like us the new book i like i don't want to talk about it the old book And I like Fierce Intimacy. I like all three of them. Yeah, Fierce Intimacy, it is quite funny because I loved Fierce Intimacy and I wanted to find a Kindle edition to highlight.

And could you explain why there isn't one, at least as it stands right now? It's audio. Sounds true. Ask me to... You know, it's one of those things God was with me. I sat in a booth. No notes.

And I just talked for three days. And that's gross intimacy. It's insane for people who want to listen to it. You know, there's certain people, maybe at that point, the spirit was at your back and similarly I remember at one point I was using a meditation app designed by Sam Harris and he had this interlude which was this commentary and it was five or ten minutes long and I said could you please send me the

text, could you send me the Google Doc? And he said, what text? I said, what do you mean, what text? He goes, I just got in the booth and riffed for 10 minutes. And I was like, okay. There are levels, and then there are levels. So nicely done on Fierce Intimacy.

Thank you. Yeah, just a few more questions, and everybody should go to TerryReal.com. I'm sure that the socials are also available from TerryReal.com, and we'll link to everything we've discussed in the show notes. Outside of your own books, are there any books that you have gifted frequently to other people or reread? more than once yourself that come to mind? I'm a big fan of Jim Gilligan's book, Violence. It's not an easy read. What was the name of the book again? Violence. Oh, Violence.

Yeah, Jim was the medical director of the Bridgewater Hospital for the Criminally Insane, and he worked with serial killers. He worked with, like, Hannibal the Cannibal. And he starts off as a young man taking this over and he says to himself, if I can figure out the dynamics of these guys, I can figure out what violence is. And he does in the book. So that's been a great inspiration to me. Why has that been an inspiration to you? I deal with male violence. I deal with violence.

And Bob Jim and I agree that violence is the shunting from the one down to the one up. from shame to grandiosity, from helplessness to attack. And so it's really, it took him 25 years to write that book and it shows, you know. Not to drift, but when 9-11 happened, I wrote an op-ed piece that nobody published. In the piece I said, this is the first time we've been hit on American soil. This is a national trauma.

Unlike anything we faced before and as a trauma expert. I know That you have two choices You can tolerate the discomfort of sitting with the vulnerability and pain of that trauma and maybe asking some tough questions about why and what needs to happen. Or... You can escape that discomfort by a flight into one-up, grandiosity, judgment, contempt, and attack.

And my hope for this country is we join together in the vulnerability rather than escape into attack. Nobody published that. Two weeks later, we were in Iraq. So I like the book. I want people to resist the temptation of flying from discomfort into one up. superiority contempt judgment and attack on all sides the left and the right The left is not shy about moving into self-righteous indignation and contempt either. We're talking about full respect, living.

I'll put my body on the line and be on the streets protesting your agenda and still hold you in regard as a human being. I don't have to dehumanize you in order to fight you. Gandhi knew that. Martin Luther King knows that. That wisdom is being lost all over the globe right now. It needs to be rekindled. Any other books that come to mind besides violence? I like Raymond Chandler. Yeah, Raymond Chandler's amazing.

Where would you have to go start? Or do you have a favorite? You know, I love lines. Belinda made my day by giving me a book called The Great One-Liners from Noir. I like Noir. the big slave i got there's a great line when humphrey brogard meets laura mccall playing sam spade She says, oh, I see you met my little sister. He says, yeah. And she tried to sit on my lap. I was sitting up at the time. Now that's rioting. Alright, so speaking of one-liners,

Just a few more questions and then we'll wind to a close. If you had a billboard, metaphorically speaking, just to get a message, a line, a quote, a question, anything like that to many, many millions of people, what might you put? on that billboard. Have the courage to move beyond the faults you were handed and do it with help.

Terry, thank you for taking the time today. It's so nice to see you again. I really appreciate you carving out the time and being flexible on start time and covering so much ground as well.

You're a wonderful interviewer, Tim, and I'm sure you're going to edit this out, but if I dare say it, even the little I know you, I've grown fond of you. I'm writing for you. So what a service you're offering. And thank you for having me on. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Terry. And to everybody listening, we will have links to everything in the show notes as per usual at tim.blog slash podcast. Just search Terry or Terry Real and it'll pop right up.

And until next time, as always, be a bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to yourself. Don't forget the last piece. And thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter.

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