#750: Neil Gaiman and Debbie Millman

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Hello boys and girls ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show where it is my job to sit down with world class performers from every field imaginable to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply and test in your own lives. This episode is a two for one. And that's because the podcast recently hit its 10th year anniversary, which is insane to think about, and past one billion downloads. To celebrate,

I've curated some of the best of the best. Some of my favorites from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited to give you these super combo episodes. And internally we've been calling these the super combo episodes because my goal is to encourage you to yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks, but to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider stars. These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the

same for many of you. Perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle. Perhaps you missed an episode. Just trust me on this one. We went to great pains to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests, you can find that and more at Tim.log slash combo. And now without further ado, please enjoy and thank you for listening.

First up, Neil Gaiman, best-selling author and creator of books, graphic novels, short stories, film and television for all ages, including neverware, Coraline, the graveyard book, the ocean at the end of the lane, the view from the cheap seats, and the Sandman series of graphic novels. You can find Neil on Instagram at Neil himself. Back in about 1997, I read an article

by Ian Fleming who wrote the James Bond books about how he wrote the James Bond books. And you read this article and you realize something which is Ian Fleming did not enjoy the process of writing. I was always fascinated by the fact that several of Rold Dahl's most famous short stories were plotted by Ian Fleming. Ian Fleming would really... Yeah, he gave Dahl... No idea.

The two best short story twists, which are lamb to the slaughter where the woman kills her husband with a leg of lamb and then cooks it and feeds it to the detective who is going, I cannot figure out what he was hit with. Is Ian Fleming plot? And so is the one about the evil antique dealer who finds this amazing antique on some farm and decides to cheat the farmers and explains that

well the thing isn't worth any money but the legs. The legs are worth some money so I'll give you 20 quid for the legs and is about to take away this million pound antique thing and the farmers helpfully rip off the legs and throw the rest away. It makes easier for you. And those plots were both Ian Fleming's and you start realizing, ah, you really don't like writing and you read his thing

on how he wrote the James Bond books. You read a James Bond book in two weeks, you check into a hotel, you have to check into a hotel somewhere that you don't want to be, otherwise you might go out and walk around and become a tourist, you have to check into a not terribly nice hotel room, otherwise you might luxuriate and enjoy it. And instead what you want to be is focused on getting out.

And then you having nothing else to do in this town, in this place, you settle down and you write like a fiend and you get your James Bond book written in two weeks and you leave this horrible hotel room. And that was how he did it. And I have tried it a couple of times. I did it with the American draft of Neverwear. That was the first one I ever tried. And I did the entire sort of American

draft, which was a big second draft. The book had already been published in the UK, but my American editor wanted stuff done because she pointed out that the book as it existed was written for people who knew that Oxford Street was a big street with lots of shops on it or whatever. It was written for Brits and Londoners and she wanted something expanded. So I expanded it. And I was in a room with as far as I remember, no windows in the, I think it was a Marriott in the World Trade Center,

which is no longer there. But writing in that hotel room, you just wanted to be out. It seems to me and you can't believe everything you read on the internet. So I want you to certainly fact check me as needed, but that you also have or have had some internal rules. So you can use your external environment to assist, but I read that, and again, feel free to correct, but making rules, the importance of making rules, rules like you can sit here and write or you can sit here

and do nothing, but you can't sit here and do anything else. That was always, and still is, when I go off to write, that's my biggest rule. Could you speak to that? Yeah, because I would go down to my lovely little gazebo, the bottom of the garden, sit down, and I'm absolutely allowed, not to do anything. I'm allowed to sit up my desk. I'm allowed to stare out at the world. I'm allowed

to do anything I like. As long as it isn't anything, not allowed to do a crossword, not allowed read a book, I'd allowed to phone a friend, not allowed to make a claim model of something. All I'm allowed to do is absolutely nothing or write. And what I love about that is I'm giving myself permission to write or not write, but writing is actually more interesting than doing nothing after a while. You know, you sort of sit there and you've been staring out the window now for five

minutes and it kind of loses its charm. You're going, well, actually, it's all right, something, and it's hard. As a writer, I'm more easily, you know, I'm distractable. I have a three-year-old son. He is the epitome of cuteness and charm. It's more fun playing with him than it is writing, which means if I'm going to be writing, I need to do it somewhere where I don't have a three-year-old son singing to me, asking me to read to him, demanding my attention. I think it's a really just a

solid rule for writers. It's like, yeah, you don't have to write. You have permission to not write, that you don't have permission to do anything else. It reminds me of another one of my favorite writers, you being the one who's sitting in front of me. John McFee, nonfiction writer, who has spent much of his life in Princeton, New Jersey, but has written some incredible, Pulitzer Prize winning nonfiction. I was lucky enough to take class with him a thousand years ago.

His rule was very similarly. It didn't state it explicitly. It would sit in front of his first as a young man typewriter. You could sit in front of the blank page and from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. with the exception of a break for lunch and swimming, it was the blank page or writing. It was disallowed from doing anything else. Are there any other rules or practices that you also hold

sacred or important for your writing process? Some of them are just things for me. For example, most of the time, not always, I will do my first draft in Fountain Pen because I actually enjoy the process of writing with the Fountain Pen. I like filling a Fountain Pen. I like uncapping it. I like the weight a bit in my hand. I like that thing. So I'll have a notebook. I'll have a Fountain Pen.

I'll write. If I'm doing anything long, if I'm working on a novel, for example, I will always have two Fountain pens on the go, at least with two different color dinks, at least, because that way, I can see at a glance how much work I did that day. I can just look down and go, look at that! Five pages in brown. I wrote that. Half a page in black, that was not a good day. Nine pages in blue. That was what a great day. You can just sort of get a sense of, okay, are you working? Are

you making forward progress? What's actually happening? I also love that because it emphasizes for me that nobody has ever meant to read your first draft. Your first draft can go way off the rails. Your first draft can absolutely go up in flames. You can change the age, gender, number of a character. You can bring somebody dead back to life. Nobody ever needs to know. Anything that happens in your first draft is you telling the story to yourself. Then I'll sit down and type.

I'll put it onto a computer. As far as I can say, the second draft is where I try and make it look like I knew what I was doing all along. Do you edit then as you're looking or translating from the first draft on the page to the computer or do you get it all down as is in the computer and then edit? No, I definitely, that's my editing process. I think that's my second draft

is typing it into the computer. Also, I love backing up a bit. When I was 27, 28, in the days when we were still in type-priters, and there were just a handful of people with web processes, which were clunky things with disks, which didn't hold very much and stuff. I edited an anthology enjoyed editing lines. The idea of most of the stories that came in were about 3,000 words long. Move forward in time, not much. Five, six, seven years, mid-90s, everybody is now on computer.

I edited another short story anthology. The stories that were coming in tended to be somewhere between six and 9,000 words long. They didn't really have much more story than the 3,000 words ones. I realized that what was happening is it's a sort of a computer thing. If you're typing, putting stuff down is work. If you've got a computer, adding stuff is not work. Choosing is work. So it sort of expands a bit like a gas. If you have two things you could say, you say both of them.

If you have this stuff you want to add, you add it. I thought, okay, I have to not do that, because otherwise my stuff is going to balloon and it will become gaseous and thin. So what I love, if I've written something on a computer and I decide to lose a chunk, it feels like I've lost work. If I delete page in a half, I feel like there's a page in a half

that just went away. That's a page in a half so if the work I've just lost. If I've been writing in a notebook and I'm typing it up and I can look at something and go, I don't need this page in a half and I believe it out. I've just saved myself work and it feels kind of like I'm treating myself. So I'm just trying to always have in my head the idea that maybe I'm somehow on some cosmic level paying somebody by the word in order to be allowed to write. If they're there, they should matter,

they should mean something. It's always important to me. So this might seem like a very, very mundane question, but what type of notebooks do you prefer? They're large, like legal pans, or they leather bound, what type of notebooks? When they came out, I've used a whole bunch of different ones. I bought big drawing ones which actually turned out to be a bit too big. I kind of liked how much I could see on the page. Those were the ones I wrote, Stardust and American Gods in,

sort of big size. But they weren't terribly portable. I went over to the mole skins and I loved them when they first came out and then they dropped their paper quality and dropping paper quality doesn't matter unless you're writing in fountain pen because all of a sudden it's bleeding through and all of a sudden you're writing on one page, leaving a page blank because it's bled through and writing on the next page. And Joe Hill about six or seven years ago,

Joe Hill, the wonderful horror fantasy writer, suggested the Leuchtturm to me. So my usual notebook right now is a Leuchtturm because I really like the way you can paginate stuff in them and the thickness of the paper and they're just like sort of mole skins but the Porsche of moles skins. They're just better. And I also have been writing, I wrote the graveyard book and I'm writing the current novel in these beautiful books that I bought in a stationary shop in Venice, built into

a bridge. Somewhere in Venice there's a little stationary shop on a bridge and they have these beautiful leather-bound blank books. They just look like hardback books but they're blank pages. And I wrote the graveyard book in one of those, I bought four of them and now I'm using the next one on the next novel and it may well go into another one. I'm not sure. And then at home, I say at home, my house in Wisconsin which is where my stuff is. We live in Woodstock but I have an entire

life's worth of stuff still sitting in my house in Wisconsin and it's become archives. It's actually kind of fabulous having a house that is an archive but waiting for me in that house is a book that I bought for myself about 25 years ago and before I die I plan to write a novel in it. And it's an accounts book from the mid 19th century. It's 500 pages long, every page is numbered.

It's lined with accounts lines but very faint so it'll be nice to write a book in it and it is engineered so that every single page lies flat and it's huge and it's heavy and it just looks like a book that Dickens or somebody would have written a novel in and I've just been waiting until I have an idea that is huge and weird and decennasian enough and whether or not I actually get to write it in dip pen I'm not sure but I definitely want to write it in a sort of old Victorian,

something slightly copper plating. One of those old flex nib pens that they stopped making when carbon paper came in just so I can get that kind of spidery Victorian handwriting. I'm just imagining you putting pen to the first page when you finish the first page and what that will feel like. That's going to be a good day. It will be either a good day or an

incredibly bad day. I'll get to the end of the first page. It's like, oh no I have this pristine but it is the thing that I tell young writers and by young writers a young writing can be any age. You just have to be starting out which is anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine unsullied whiteness of a scream or a page with nothing on it because there's nothing that affects. Are there any particular

fountain pens or criteria that you would use in picking? I'm a good pen. You know the biggest criteria I would use in picking if you have the choice is go somewhere like New York's fountain pen hospital. Is that a real place? It's a real place. It's called the fountain pen hospital. They sell lots of new pens. They reconditional pens. They look after pens for you and try them out because the lovely thing about fountain pens is they are personal. You go no no no and then you find

the one. I tend to suggest to people who are nervously, I've never used a fountain pen. What should I do? And I will point them at LAMI, LAMI, who have some fabulous starter pens and they're not very expensive and they're good. They do a pen called the safari but they have a bunch of good starter pens and they're just nice to get into the idea of do I like doing this? So I was doing prep for this conversation and came across an interview in which you said that for nonfiction,

you can kind of write wherever it happens to fall. If it's a script or something else but that for novels very often you tend to write between say 1 and 6 p.m. where you'll handle email, maybe writing a blog post and so on in the morning and I'd love to chat about that because many of the writers I've spoken to and I'm sure a differs person to person but tend to write either very late

or very early because they feel like they avoid distractions. When I started out from the age of about 22 when I was a young journalist 26 27 I started out comics writer all through there I was a late late night writer nothing really happened until the kids were in bed 9 o'clock I might have

fathtered out a little bit during the day but now it's all done and now I'm getting down to work and at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning and I'm writing in England at this point I may phone a friend in America just to talk enough to make sure that I'm awake so that's what I did and I was a smoker

and a coffee drinker and it was great. I moved to America in 92 gave up smoking 93 stop drinking coffee went over to tea and tried carrying on being a late night writer and gradually realized that I wasn't really anymore what tended to happen was somewhere around one in the morning I'd be writing

away and then I would lift my head from the keyboard at 4 o'clock in the morning and have 3000 pages of the letter M and just go okay that this doesn't really work anymore for me and then I started rescheduling trying different things out part of what I discovered particularly about

being a novelist is writing a novel works best if you can do the same day over and over again the closer you can come to just brown talk day you just repeat that day you've set up a day that works for yourself the last novel that I actually wrote I was at Torrey Amos's wonderful house in

Florida she has this lovely sort of house on the water that she's lent me many times to go on writing and I went down there and I would get up in the morning I would go for a jog come back do my yoga get dressed get in the car drive down to a little cafe where there were just enough people around

that I knew that other people existed but nobody that I would ever be tempted to talk to and I would order myself large cup of green tea sit in the corner and just start writing and I would do that day over and over and over and you know a couple of months later looked up and I had the ocean at the

end of the lane which was only meant to have been a short story anyway it just kept going that I think works really really well I also think that the most important thing for human beings is to be aware of the change the biggest problem we run into is going this is who I am this is what I'm like

this is how I function while failing to notice that you don't do that anymore I'm perfectly aware that I may one day become one of those people who wakes up early in the morning and goes and writes my friend Jean Wolfe who is now in his late 80s and is one of you know the finest writers

that America has for years was an editor of a magazine about factories I think it was called plant engineering so he'd get up at four o'clock in the morning and write for an hour before anything else before the day started before he had to leave for work and before anybody else was up

and that was how he did it I cannot imagine getting up in the morning and just writing that's not how my head works I need a while to get here but I can absolutely imagine that one day all have become one of those morning writers from having been a late night writer in my youth and

an afternoon writer in my middle age in my doge I could absolutely come a morning writer in your doge I think that's going to take a while what are the types of things that you learned from Terry or picked up the biggest thing looking back on it that I learned from Terry Preciat was a willingness to go forward without knowing what happens you might know what happens next but you don't know what happens after that but it's okay because you're a grown-up and you will figure

it out there's lots of metaphors for writing a novel and George R.R. Martin for example divides writers into architects and gardeners and I can be an architect if I have to but I'd rather be a gardener I would rather plant the seeds water them and figure out what I'm growing as they grow

and then prune it and trim it and pleach it whatever I need to do to make something beautiful that appears intentional but at the end of the day you have to allow for accidents and randomness and just what happens when things grow so the joy of good omens really I mean the best thing about

good omens was having Terry Preciat as an audience because if I could make Terry laugh it's like hitting the thing in the circus with the hammer if you bing the bell at the top that's what I did but I could make Terry laugh many many of my fans are your fans and just as Terry shared his gifts

with the world you continue to share yours and it has an impact it helped me through some very tough times was able to transport me delight me shock me scare me and take me through a whole range of emotions I didn't at the time even though I had access to so I want to thank you for

making good art and sharing it with the world you've done a great job you are so ridiculously welcome thank you just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show this episode is brought to you by linked in jobs when you're hiring for your small business you want

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at linkedin.com slash Tim that's linkedin.com slash Tim to post your job for free terms and conditions apply and now Debbie Millman host of the Design Matters podcast chair of the SVA Masters in Branding program editorial director for print magazine and one of graphic design USA's most influential designers working today you can find Debbie on Twitter and Instagram at Debbie Millman.

Debbie welcome to the show thank you Tim it's really wonderful to be here I have wanted to interview you on numerous occasions now over the last few years so I'm thrilled that we are finally doing this point number one and I thought I would start with a question that someone like

yourself who has explored so many different things in so many different formats when someone asks you what do you do let's say you meet someone at a party they say what do you do what is your answer to that that's a tough question what do I say well now I say that I'm a designer and

sometimes if I'm feeling wordy I'll say that I'm a designer and a writer and a podcaster and sometimes people look at me like huh like huh too many hyphens what does that mean exactly I found when I was working at sterling brands which I did for over two decades I had resolved to just saying when I was filling out what I did on passport applications and thus and things like

that I used to say executive and that made sense. Now executive is a great catch all you can executive is a great catch all for a long time on Twitter I had Debbie Millman is a girl until enough people said Debbie really got to change that and then I did. Oh the internet well you could put anything there and I think about 10% of the people who come across it will be outraged for one

reason or another. Oh yes I found that the very things that delight and excite some people are the same exact things that outrage others it's really hard to please everybody all the time. I think that if you try to please all the people all the time you'll just end up displeasing yourself all the time that's the that's the only guaranteed outcome there. Oh Tim I learned that's a hard

way. Well I want to talk about so many things Debbie but let's start with and for those people wondering I always ask my guests beforehand are there any particular say prompts for stories that we could explore that that that might be fun to dig into and one of them was drawing you did when eight years old and so I know nothing about this and I just want to start there since it

seems to make sense to begin at the beginning. Well I have somewhat of a pack rat mentality I keep things I'm a sentimentalist at heart and I like to keep things from all different stages of my life and I have boxes of journals and drawings and all sorts of work cards and you name it I have it. Well apparently I got this trait from my mother who a couple of years ago did what a lot of good old Jews do she moved from Queens New York to Florida. The Great Migration.

And before she moved she unloaded several boxes of ephemera of mine that she had kept unmanence to me and I went through everything quite gingerly it was all sort of folded up very neatly and very tidally and came across an illustration that I did when I was about eight years old

and after I admired my handiwork because I thought wow eight years old I was like rocking the drawings I realized that this particular drawing had predicted my whole life and so I will try to explain this drawing as best as I can and for some backstory I am a native New Yorker I was born in Brooklyn

when I was about two years old my parents took me to Howard Beach Queens I moved there before there were any sidewalks that will give you a little bit of a sense of how old I am I lived there until I was about I was at I was in the middle of a third grade and we moved to Staten Island

and I lived on Staten Island until I was in the fifth grade and the fifth grade my parents got divorced my mom took my brother and I was two and a half years younger than I am to Long Island my childhood was spent in almost all of the burrows except Manhattan and for some reason I had a

I guess a sense of what Manhattan looked like and felt like probably from television and at eight years old I drew a picture of the streets of Manhattan I'm walking I'm a little girl I'm walking along with my mother my mother by the way is wearing a very popular Barbie outfit of the time

an outfit called Tangerine Dream which I I really loved I put her in that outfit and despite not having a lot of time on the streets or any time on the streets of Manhattan I drew it in quite good detail there were buildings and buses and taxis and I labeled everything I labeled the

cleaners cleaners and I labeled the bank bank and I labeled the taxi taxi in the middle of the street there is a delivery truck and I not only labeled the delivery truck I also drew the sign on the delivery truck and the sign was Laze Potato chips I drew the logo at eight years old and when I saw

this drawing I realized that I had predicted my whole life I'm a native New Yorker now living in Manhattan I've been living in Manhattan for 33 years I go to the bank I go to the cleaners I take lots of taxis lots of buses and at the time I found this drawing I was drawing logos for a living

and you know had I known that it would have been that easy just to follow that drawing I would have saved decades of experiments in failure and rejection this is fascinating to me for a number of reasons that had a few guests on the podcast Chris Saka would be another example was an investor

and he at some point wrote in the journal well I think it was one of these composition notebooks with the sort of modeled black and white zebra slash camouflage covers how I love that what he would be when he was 40 years old and he must have done this when he was 10 or 12 something like that

and he found it in his I think his parents garage later around the age of 42 or something like that and it also predicted effectively exactly what he would be doing but it was lost in the slipstream and he took this very meandering in some ways odd seemingly fractured path to come right back to

where he started in the sense did you then it sounds like you didn't follow that plan that had was so neatly summarized in this picture because there are folks out there say you know when I was five I knew I always wanted to be X but what was your when did you figure out that you wanted to

actually do what was in that drawing on some level that you want it to be a designer I actually never set out to be a designer I thought that I was going to be a journalist the only thing that I knew for sure when I was in college was that when I graduated I wanted to live in Manhattan at

that point I had not ever lived in Manhattan and that was my big dream and I came to Manhattan this summer of 1983 I often say that that was the summer of David Bowie's modern love and the police's synchronicity I saw both concerts that summer I moved into a sublet apartment

with a friend that had also recently graduated she had found a sublet on the corner of Hudson and Perry streets in the village I didn't know it at the time but moving into an apartment on the intersection of Hudson and Perry was almost as if I was entering the movie Gidget goes to Manhattan

I didn't know where I was going it was quite serendipitous my friend Jay found the apartment for us unfortunately that wonderful summer turned out rather unfortunate because the woman who Jay and I were subletting from was rather than paying the rent with the rent money that she was getting

from us was keeping it and not paying the rent so at the end of the summer we all got evicted and surprise yeah I ended up appealing to the landlord to please please help me find some place else to live because I really didn't have any place else to go and he ended up being able to

rent me another one of the apartments he had in another building he owned on 16th Street which was a fourth floor tenement walk up a railroad flat that I couldn't afford on my own and ended up living with a couple my roommates were a couple because it was a railroad flat I had to

walk through the apartment which meant through their bedroom to get to mine which often meant I was stuck on one side or the other depending on their nocturnal habits or afternoon delight to many on you know what they were doing and live there for about five years before I ended up

moving back into the village for a short period of time so that was the one thing I knew that I wanted to live in Manhattan I did not know that I could be a designer that I would be a designer and or that design was even a discipline until my senior year of college I had worked my way up to be

the editor of the arts and features section of this student newspaper at SUNY Albany where I went to school and realized very quickly that as much as I loved assigning articles and coming up with themes for this section of the newspaper I was endlessly fascinated by putting the paper together by designing the paper and thus a baby designer was born I took all of one class in design while I was in college and really learned almost everything I knew at that time working in the newsroom putting

the paper together everything was done old school layout paste up compute graphic machine stat cameras and then when I graduated was both doing freelance editorial and freelance layout and paste up for the first couple of years of my career when did you start at the student newspaper was

that something you started at the very beginning and followed throughout your I guess undergrad experience I wanted to write for the student newspaper I think the very first issue I saw when I got to SUNY Albany freshman year and went up to the student newspaper which was on the third floor

of the campus center and approached the editor at the time and asked if I could be a writer or offered my services volunteered my services and he looked at me and asked me if I had any clips and I was like you know I didn't say what I was thinking but like hair clips I mean I didn't know

what he's talking about and I didn't have anything and I didn't know what to do when I was embarrassed and he humiliated and ashamed and sort of screwed away and didn't go back until my junior year I was so intimidated by the talent and the work that was coming out of that newsroom and it was

at the time and very well may still be one of the best student newspapers in the country it came twice a week Tuesdays and Fridays and I would I was just enamored with this newspaper and I fantasized about writing really pithy area diet letters to the editor in chief that would then

get published in you know the letters to the editor section and they would realize what a great writer I was and then invite me to be a reporter and I'd sort of walk around like Rosalyn Russell with a pencil behind my ear and my heels clacking in the newsroom and of course that never happened

I never wrote one letter to the editor and for some reason and I guess an abort moment of courage I went back up to the newsroom my second semester junior year and there was a women's uprising and the student read of the student health we'd store and they're like could you go cover that

and I was like yeah absolutely and I went and did it and that was how I started writing for the paper I then wrote a piece about an exhibit in the art center and by the end of my second semester junior year only because I think no one else would take it I was offered the job of being editor

of the arts and feature section and began that summer that senior year in college was one of the most exciting and best years of my life in that for the first time ever I felt like I had purpose suddenly working on this paper I felt like I was part of sending bigger than myself I felt like I

was I had some reason for being and I loved learning about design I loved being able to work with writers and I felt for the first time in my life really excited about something I want to talk about that abort moment of courage and dig into that a bit so you were rejected from or maybe

rejected yourself or both initially when you approach the paper then years later you have this abort moment of courage what precipitated that was there a conversation a realization you watch the movie what triggered that do you remember I actually don't I wish that I did it would make

it from much better story and certainly a better interview but I can tell you is that all these years later I have noticed a pattern in my life of being very easily hurt by an initial reaction or an initial rejection so much so that it thwarts any other attempt at making something like that happen

for a very long time I am extremely sensitive and any rejection sort of takes me off of that past for quite a long time it takes me a while to recover could you give any examples of that I would say my entire life I will give you I can give you 43 examples get comfortable Tim yeah I'm definitely

settling in with my water I'm ready to go well there I was rejected that first year of college took me then three years to go back again I might have been feeling confident about something else it had gone well in my life and thought what the heck why not go back and try and then took those steps

up to the campus center and went back up to the third floor and asked again I am somebody that has a very hard time taking no for an answer but it takes me a long time to recalibrate and get my courage back to continue to keep trying and when I graduated because I had such a hard time

finding a job initially that I really loved and because I was having so much trouble figuring out what I wanted to do with my life I kept bouncing around from opportunity to opportunity and every time I would try something new and would ultimately get rejected I used that first rejection almost as

a permission slip to avoid having to try again so when I graduated I started working at a couple of different magazines I worked for a cable magazine and I worked for a rock magazine doing lay out and paste up and some editing and at the time thought oh I'm really enjoying this

but I don't really feel qualified to be doing this maybe I should go back to school and get a master's degree in journalism and I lived in the neighborhood of a very good journalism school the Columbia School of Journalism and my dad had gone to Columbia and studied pharmacy and I thought

why not apply to the Columbia School of Journalism but that was the only school I applied to I thought you know I want to consider getting a master's degree in journalism there are a lot of good journalism schools in New York City but for some reason I had my heart set on this one school

I didn't get in I got rejected and abandoned my hopes or dream of going to get a master's degree in journalism shortly thereafter because I also am a painter I had been accepted into a show at Long Island University the Brooklyn campus and got some good reviews and thought

hmm maybe I should become an artist I love doing this I'm getting some good response from it but I don't feel qualified or or educated enough maybe I should get an advanced degree in art and I applied to the Whitney school the Whitney Museum of Art had an independent study program

that would allow me to continue working during the day I applied for that I had really good references wonderful clips at that point you know some good reviews and I'm got rejected to that and then abandoned that dream and so it's been a long history of making an attempt getting that early

rejection retreating and then finally sort of licking my wounds re-instead of knitting my confidence or hopes and dreams together and then trying to do something else or trying again so a few questions the first is what would you have or what would you say to your college self

after that first rejection at the newspaper or what advice would you give someone who had the near identical experience and was hard-wired the same way well it's an interesting question because I have the benefit of hindsight and looking back on those years yes I certainly could have

tried again sooner and maybe had more of a runway to experiment and grow and learn in that newsroom and in that environment but I also think that those years in between learning and growing in other ways contributed to my ability to then when appointed the editor of the

arts and features section I somehow had a lot more to pull from and maybe this is my own sort of synthesizing happiness or calibrating to my own set point or looking back and thinking well it all sort of worked out so why give somebody advice that I wouldn't have necessarily taken at that

point what I would say is don't accept the first rejection ever give yourself options the timeliness of those options or the timeliness of those retries do at your own pace you're not in competition with anybody but yourself so if you are rejected to something that you want then

think about what it is that caused that rejection and work to better understand how you can present your best possible self when you try again your clips mentioned where you're like clips hair clips reminded me of a story I heard when I was a student so you work with a lot of students

and we're going to come back to that oh Tim can I add one more thing of course I'm sorry I this isn't interesting you can add many things please so one thing that I haven't shared about this particular story is that the young man that rejected me that first year is somebody that I then

befriended in that experience of working at the paper that junior year and I graduated in 1983 it is now 2017 and I have been friends with that man his name is Robert et alstein I have been friends with him ever since so just because somebody rejects you doesn't mean that they don't like you

first of all he didn't even reject me he asked me for a very reasonable he asked me for something very reasonably asked me for some examples of my writing I was so intimidated and was so embarrassed by not knowing exactly what he meant in the fact that I didn't have anything other than some

things from high school which I didn't feel were appropriate that I was the one that rejected myself in many ways one of the interesting things that I have found is and Rob is not the only person that I can point to as being somebody that initially provided some sort of obstacle or roadblock

that was a reasonable one and then ultimately I be friended and we've become we are now lifelong friends he didn't even remember rejecting me that fresh manoeuvre and is mortified now by the notion that he might have done anything to hurt my feelings so one of the other things that I would

suggest that people consider if they believe they are being rejected is consider what the perception from the other person doing the rejection or the supposed rejection might be and that sense of empathy might be really helpful in understanding where you're coming from what you're

bringing to that specific example or that specific experience and I'd like to underscore this because it's such an important point and I in some respects like you have been a very sensitive I still am in some respects very sensitive and my particular brand of that or my particular type of

response is to feel some type of sense of injustice and so I will get rejected and looking back at what I see as a rejection either when I did this perhaps 10 years ago I looked at a number of instances where I felt like I'd been rejected via email and so on that a it wasn't a rejection

for all time it was a not now it was a very temporary impossibility due to logistics and I took that as a no not ever and it felt very hurt by that and didn't try a second time in many cases yeah absolutely you know so number one you know they just mean no not right now and you can

even clarify that right you can ask that as a clarifying question number two is that at some point someone said to me and this doesn't apply to your particular instance but don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence and that didn't cover it all for me though but it would

it really made it profound impact on me when I was told this so I would read email with inserting if I were doing an audiobook of the other person's voice some type of really angry upset person and nine times out of 10 that wasn't the tone at all I was just I was misreading it

so I started to assume for myself don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence or just busyness the person is busy if they send you a really short response to your mini novella of an email it doesn't mean that they think you're worthless or not worth their time it could just

mean that they have 10 times more to do than you do and it's sometimes hard to have that perspective when particularly you're starting out and you're a bit fragile and you're on wobbly legs and you send this huge outpouring of your emotion to someone you respect and then they respond

with sorry kid not right now and you're like really that's it and then you die I'm not going to name names but there's someone who I now I'm very close friends with extremely well respected writer and I got one of these one line responses in 2005 or six when I sent an early manuscript of the

four hour work week to this person via email and the response was effectively thanks but sorry don't have time to read this right now no dear Tim no signature just one line and I felt so slighted by this that I held this subconscious grudge for years and now we're really good friends

and the whole thing is ludicrous in retrospect one thing that I find about human nature is that ambiguity is always perceived negatively so there might be nothing in that one line email that would be in any way disparaging or insulting or anything but because we as humans perceive

ambiguity negatively we tend to read into things that aren't there in a way that makes us feel bad but I also think that a lot of that for me comes from having a very sort of fragile center and not necessarily thinking that they are specifically upset with me because of something that I've

done but just because everything that I do is sort of bad they're just cognizant of that so it's not something specific it's just something all encompassing and so that's been something I've been struggling to overcome over the decades so I have a few questions about how you came to find your niche or the first time you clicked into place so to speak doing something that resembles what what you ended up doing up to this point but before I get to that just to put a button in the

anecdote related to clips you mentioned clips here clips here clips I was told this story by a professor in college about nantucket nectar when it was just getting started and there I believe two guys who are really faking it until they made it in a lot of respects and at one point they're

meeting with this distributor because they'd been selling these concoctions via boats in nantucket from boat to boat to boat and they wanted to go into retail and it met with this it was either a retailer distributor was early on and they were really nervous and the muckety muck they're

meeting with at least in their eyes said do you have a lot of p.o.s materials and they looked at each other like oh shit and they said oh p.o.s were all about p.o.s and he's like good good good and then they walked out like what the hell is p.o.s point of sale which of course you know plenty

about but I wanted to to before we get to when you sort of first clicked into your your natch and how that happened you mentioned knowing that you wanted to be in Manhattan and I've been thinking a lot about the components of and this is a dangerous word sometimes but happiness and that oftentimes

we think of the journalist w's right the interrogatives the why the what the where and so on of happiness and I think humans tend to at least put why at the top then maybe what somewhere lower and then where is often an afterthought but I've started to believe that the where is much more

critical than we give it credit for and that you can actually start there so I thought about this a lot for myself but really the how important the geography can be because it determines in large measure who you're surrounded with all the time and what you're surrounded with all the time but

I guess it's more of an observation than a question but if you think about that how do you think about the components of happiness or well-being for yourself well there's sort of two parts to the question I think and the first is this notion of New York sort of being the place that I wanted to be

and what I told myself at that time and then ultimately how that leads to happiness or fulfillment and one of the things that I struggled with when I first moved to Manhattan or when I first graduated really was what was I going to be what was I going to do I didn't have a lot of money I didn't

have any network and I certainly didn't have any type of connection to any ins for apartments or jobs or anything like that and I wanted very badly to be in Manhattan that was something that I knew for sure in thinking about what I wanted with my life I knew that I wanted to do something

creative one of my big hopes and dreams at that time was to work at Condé Nassden I did apply and I did get a call back and I got rejected and then never tried again another example of that but one of the more high altitude aspirations was either being an artist or being a writer so being

more of a of a fine artist and not a commercial artist but at the time I did not think that my chances of success at that would either be possible and certainly if it were possible not fast and because I wanted to live in New York City because I want to live in Manhattan I felt that I

needed to be able to get a job that would pay my rent because I didn't want to be a waitress and because I didn't want to be a bartender I needed to make some type of reasonable income in order to pay that rent and so I have been telling myself for decades now that I decided that I

needed to work as a designer because I needed to have some sort of income that would give me some sense of self-sufficiency self-sufficiency has been enormously important to me and I've said that for years and years and years and that being safe and secure and being able to manage the

course of my own life having financial stability was something that was a bit of a lead gene for me in making the decisions that I did and back in that summer of David Bowie and the police I remember coming home from a club one night and I was on the corner of Bleaker Street in 6th Avenue and it

suddenly occurred to me that I had to make a decision and the decision was what was I going to do and I realized that if I wanted to be an artist or a writer that I would likely have to take some type of job that would not necessarily be able to safeguard what I considered to be my financial

future and therefore made this little pact with myself in my head that I would become a designer so that I could make enough money to be able to be secure and I've been telling myself that for decades what I realized in the last couple of years was that I was unbeknownst to my psyche,

my consciousness I was lying to myself I was absolutely positively lying to myself because more than the self-sufficiency was the desire to be in Manhattan I could have easily become or more easily become an artist or a fine artist or a writer if I didn't want to live in the most

expensive city in the world I could have gone and lived with my mother in Queens I could have lived with friends in Albany I could have had seven roommates in in a little commune in Bedstuy there would have been any number of things that I could have done if my lead gene had been artistic

purity but no I told myself that it was because of x, y and z but really what it was was the most important thing to me at that point in my life was being in Manhattan and I lived in a fourth floor tenement walk up I had a walk through somebody else's bedroom to get to mine I was living on a floor with people that were constantly the other tenants in the building were locking each other out it was an elderly couple and they were always fighting there were a whole family of pigeons living on the

fire escape outside of my window in my bedroom which was so decrepit I couldn't even open the window in the summertime and there was no air conditioning in this apartment I mean the conditions that I lived in were deplorable but yet that was the most important thing to me so when I talk to people

now about what do they want to do when they first graduate I ask them to think about what is the one most important thing to you what is the one most important thing to you because if it is truly the one most important thing to you you will likely do whatever it takes to get it

and the most important thing to me was not being a writer and it was not being an artist it was living in Manhattan and I did whatever it took and lived in whatever conditions that I needed to in order to make that happen I think that's a really important realization oh definitely by Hoka

Kruk you're living in Manhattan and that's that is the outcome in part of all of these decisions and the lead gene as you put it where does the the need for stability, security or the desire for that come from I do think that it's certainly in Maslow's hierarchy of needs a really important one

for me it takes on an extra level of significance in that I grew up in a really really challenging environment so my parents got divorced when I was very young I was about eight years old and I had a very very complicated relationship with my father my father died last year unexpectedly

my father sort of in my daughter eyes was brilliant charismatic he was an incredibly well-spoken man he was also extremely turbulent he had a lot of anger issues and over the course of our lives together I had five different experiences with him where he rejected me and decided that he didn't

want me in his life and so one of those periods was about nine years so we had a very very turbulent relationship when my parents got divorced I told myself at the time that I was really happy about that because I was so scared of his anger and so scared of the anger that they had for each other

about a year after my parents got divorced my mother married again and she married a man who was physically and sexually abusive to me physically abusive to my brother and also sexually abusive to his to one of his two biological daughters and severely severely beat us for four years

during that time was one of the times the first time actually that I was estranged from my biological father and so I had a lot of brutality in my life and after they got divorced I was 13 my father came back into my life my mother then got involved with another man who was 10 years younger than her

so therefore only 10 years older than me and was also I guess I'll put it sexually provocative with me and also emotionally abusive so for the first like 18 years of my life I lived in a state of constant terror and compensated or self-soothed with art with a lot of extracurricular activities in

school I was always an overachiever probably in an effort to prove to myself and to my family that I wasn't worthy of the abuse that was being inflicted on me I wanted so much more for my life even back then and grew up thinking that if I had the resources to take care of myself that I would

never allow anything bad to happen to me not quite a realistic expectation but was something that I felt was possible to do of course it's not that takes decades to also figure out but at that time I wanted very badly to be able to live in my own home to be able to take care of myself and to be

in a position where I would never be vulnerable again you know sort of Scarlet O'Hara I'm never going to go hungry again yeah it doesn't always work out that way but it was definitely the journey that I've been on well thank you for sharing that I had no idea it's not something I talk about a

lot mostly because I've had an enormous amount of shame about it and that's a very normal thing and I still do and it's still very very hard for me to share these types of things but I do think it's important that people do see that there is hope for a better life even when you are the victim

of these types of situations I've spent a lot of time working on better integrating those experiences into my life in a way to not only understand what happened why it happened what the aftermath then caused but also how I can use that empathy and that understanding to try to help the world

and that's a lot of the reason that I've started to do the work that I do with Marish Gahargate and the Joyful Heart Foundation which is a foundation that Marish got started after she started working on Law and Order SVU shortly after she started working on that

television program she started to receive a lot of letters from people that the very victim she was trying to find justice for on the television show and realized that this is way more than a television show this is a huge opportunity to make a difference in our culture and shortly

thereafter started the Joyful Heart Foundation which is an organization to help eradicate domestic violent sexual assault and child abuse and I've been working with Marish Gahargate and Miley Zambuto the CEO of the foundation now for the last five years and this work I believe the branding work

that I've been able to do with them taking into all the expertise I've had in repositioning and branding some of the biggest CPG companies in the world and now dovetelling that with my own background really truly makes me feel like my whole life makes sense to him.

That's beautiful and I'm really glad you're talking about this because I can imagine a very different experience but I've had my own battles with darkness of different types and it's very easy to believe that you are alone or isolated or that things will never change and I'm sure there are people listening who have had similar experiences to yours who have never talked about them or have never found a way to perhaps integrate or reconcile them and this might

be an incredible catalyst for them. I would love to ask if you're open to talking about if you're self have you found any particular avenues or types of work to be particularly helpful to you of course the work that you're doing with the Joyful Heart Foundation but apart from that are there any particular types of exercises or work or anything really that has helped you to be more at peace with your experience. I think that the work that I've done in therapy has saved my life.

I have always been really dedicated to my therapy and have been in therapy with the same analyst now for over two decades. What type of therapy is that if you don't mind me asking? I know very little about. The person who I work with is a PhD. She was very involved in the psychoanalytic community in New York City. She's now living in Santa Fe. I think that it's a combination of a number of different philosophies and theories probably at its foundation psychoanalysis but certainly

with quite a lot of variations. It's talk therapy. I started back in the early 90s, five days a week and then moved down to three days and now I'm usually two to three days and it is enormously helpful to help me try to make sense of these experiences that I've had for anybody that is either in the midst of experiencing them or experiencing the aftermath. There are a lot of resources. One of the things that I experienced when I was in the midst of these experiences was

a sense of profound aloneness. The worst experiences I had were in the 70s and at the time the topic wasn't one that was as understood. I didn't know what was happening to me. I thought I was the only person in the world that this was happening to because it seemed so surreal and unnatural and punishing. It didn't occur to me that this was pervasive, that this was a cultural epidemic and I was told at the time by the perpetrator that if I told anybody that he had the resources

to hurt my brother and my mother that he would kill them. And I believed that. I was a little girl. I believed that and I was protecting them and I didn't know that I had any other resources. None. And didn't even tell my mother until after they got divorced because Tim I didn't want to be the reason I didn't want to be blamed. And I also didn't think anybody would believe me. And I didn't want my mother and my brother to be harmed. It wasn't until I was much older that I realized

that this was pervasive. So for anybody that is listening, if you feel alone, know that you're not, you can go to the Joyful Heart Foundation, thejoyfulheartfoundation.org. And there are resources and phone numbers. You can also go to nomore.org, which is another organization that I've helped. And there are resources and people that are there to help and listen and get you out of the situation that you are in. Thank you for that. To insert some levity, I'm not sure how to

segue from here. Well, let's talk about some of the really, really important things that people are doing now to not only eradicate this type of violence, but also to change the world. One of the other things that Joyful Heart is doing that I am so proud of is ending the backlog. There are hundreds of thousands of rape kits that are not being investigated that are sitting in shelves

in police departments all over the country. And so the Joyful Heart Foundation, along with Vice President Joe Biden, has been very involved in getting funding to help analyze those rape kits to be able to analyze the DNA and get serial rapists off the streets and get justice for the victims of those crimes. So that's a really, really important thing that they're doing. And something that I feel can ultimately change not only the sort of rape culture that we're living in, but also

the blaming of victims. So we can change culture by doing this work together. That's something I'm super proud of. And to those people listening, all of these resources that are being mentioned throughout this episode will be in the show notes. So you can certainly find links to no more dot org, the Joyful Heart Foundation, and so on at fourhourworkweek.com. For such podcast, all spelled out. David, I'd love to ask you to shift gears just a little bit, or

perhaps a lot, speak up story. That's one of my favorite stories. I will let you run with it. I would love for you to, I would love for you to share. Okay. So I want to start this story by letting people know that this was something that while it was happening, I thought was the worst professional experience of my life. And it's turned out to be the most important and life affirming of my life. So let me tell you a little bit about the speak up story. So the year is

2003. And the time in the world was quite different than it is now. So we were online, but we weren't quite online in the way that we are now. I think YouTube was just just just beginning. It was a video sharing site, more than anything. We were online, but we were playing games, and we were ordering from the J Crew catalog. I don't know if people remember when the J Crew catalog went online, people's heads exploded. You could buy things online and they could be shipped to you. You don't

have to leave the house. Oh my god, that's so amazing. And we were playing games and we were emailing and reading the news. And there were forums where people would congregate, but they tended to be more niche forums and not so much mainstream cultural forums. Prior to that, leading up to that

time in my life, I had joined Sterling Brands in 1995. And this was one of the first moments of that click that you had mentioned earlier where suddenly without even realizing it, I had joined a firm where I was hired to help grow the business via the acquisition of new clients in branding. And the job was one of the first times in my life where I was almost effortlessly successful. I think because of my early childhood in my father's pharmacy being surrounded by brands, I had,

and my own sort of obsession with things like Lays Potato Chips. Exactly. I had this almost magical ability to understand why and how people chose the objects that they did to be part of their lives, mostly the brands that they chose. So I started working at Sterling Brands and had

this here to for unbelievable level of success financially. And I really enjoyed it. I am also endlessly fascinated by the choices people make for the objects in their lives, what they choose to surround themselves with, the kinds of things they buy and share and eat and wear and so forth.

And in as much as I loved what I was doing and in as much as I was relishing the level of success that in my early 30s I was finally, finally getting, I also was still sort of longing for that artistic, creative sort of part of my life that I felt was deeply missing. At that point, what department were you working in? I was working in marketing and sales. So I wasn't at that time doing very much design work.

I was doing some work freelance. I had been appointed the Off-Air Creative Director at Hot 97, which is a whole other sort of story to share at some point. But I was working to develop the identity and the graphics for the first ever hip hop radio station, which happened to be in New York

and was called Hot 97. That was the only thing that I was doing on the side. I started working at Sterling Brands and was longing for a design community and was longing for a feeling of being part of something bigger than I was on my own, but something that was much more creative and had no commercial implications. And I found the AIGA, the American Institute of Graphic Arts, and they had a special interest group within AIGA called the Brand Experience Center.

And I was so excited. I thought, oh my god, this is the bend diagram of my life. I can do branding and they have designers and all these famous designers are on the board. And I could meet them and I could be part of this great community. And so I went and I volunteered and I became a member of AIGA and I was working with this Brand Experience Group. And I loved it and I was appointed to the board. And I felt really, really part of something. And the board term was I think

two years. And at the end of the term, if we wanted to be on the board again, we all had to reapply. And in that two years, I was very active. I went to all the meetings and we weren't funded by AIGA. We had a self-fund and so I made cupcakes for bake sales and we had a flea market and I was very, very involved in this sort of day-to-day runnings of this little special interest group. At the end of the two years, we all had to reapply if we wanted to be on the board again. And every single

person reapplied and every single person was appointed on the board again except me. I was rejected. You set me up with the cupcakes. Oh my god. Oh, they were really good cupcakes and brownies. And I was devastated. I was just devastated. And Rick Raffa, who was then the executive director, he had been aware of how much I wanted to be in AIGA and how much I wanted to do in my aspirations. And I think he felt really bad for me. Asked me if I wanted to have lunch and he took me to a

very expensive lunch at 11 Madison and over the course of its lunch. Yeah, it was super wonderful. And generous of him over the course of lunch, he said, please, please don't give up on AIGA. We need people like you and don't give up. We'll find a place for you. I promise. And I guess it's a bit of a consolation prize. He asked me if I would be a judge in the upcoming annual competition that AIGA had called 365. And he asked me if I wanted to be a judge in the package design category.

This to me was almost worth being kicked to the curb by this special interest group of the brand experience. And this was like the biggest honor of my career at that point to be a judge in the country's biggest design competition was unfathomable to me. It felt like a miracle. And so I went to the judging and there were two other judges with me. We had 700 entries that we needed to look at in one day. And when I got to the judging at AIGA headquarters, I met with

the other two jurors. One was a very well-known designer who had a bit of a boutique agency, the very posh. She was very stylish. I did not feel nearly as stylish. Another guy was there from Apple. And this was shortly after the iPod had been released. And he was on his iPod the whole time and really didn't spend a lot of time paying attention to the judging. In any case, this other juror. What a dick. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Sorry, guy. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And that juror looks at me when I get there and she's like, just say, you know, I don't intend to have any mass market packaging in this competition getting award. And I was like, okay. And I didn't agree with that. I mean, I understandably had come. I was working at a CPG package design firm and we had recently designed the Burger King logo and the Star Wars Episode 2 attack of the clones packaging and merchandising and the Hershey bar. And so, you know, I was coming

from a completely different point of view. We ended up disagreeing so vehemently that at one point I thought we were going to actually come to Fistacuffs. Was this behind the scenes or is this while you're on the panel? No. This is while we're on the panel and there's somebody that's trailing us writing notes for an article that's going to appear in the annual. It was mortifying.

In any case, we were only able to agree, I think on seven things that would go into the competition journal, which is not a way to encourage future applicants to apply for the competition. So, A.I.J. was not particularly happy with us. This juror of mine, the fellow juror, heated me and I felt at the end of that day that I would never ever be asked to do anything with

A.I.J. ever again. And I remember walking back to my office, which was at the Empire's Stapling at the time, it was sort of dusk and I felt like, oh, this is never, ever going to work out and resign myself to that. Rick asked for some work of mine to be included in the journal as evidence of my credentials for being a juror and the two biggest projects that I had done at the time were the Birken Identity and the Star Wars Identity. And so, I sent those in as my credentials. They

were printed in the journal and that was the end of that. Or so, I thought, May 2, 2003. I get I get a link from a friend of mine. She sends me an email and she's like, read this in the privacy of your own home, preferably with a bit drink. And oh boy, what a set up. I know, right? And I am not one that likes surprises or anticipation. I need instant gratification. So I don't wait to

go home. I don't wait to get a drink. I click into the link at my desk in my office and come to a letter, an open letter to A.I.G.A written by a designer named Felix Sockwell on this thing called Speak Up. And Speak Up was one of the first web logs and the first design blog. And the letter chastises A.I.G.A for including me, Debbie Mildon, as a juror in their annual competition. What is supposed to be the most prestigious competition in the country and accused me of not only being a

corporate clown, but also because of the work I do, they called me a she devil. A she devil. Wow. And proceeded to take my entire career down. And it was a pylon. So not only was the open letter quite harsh, but then there was the pylon of comments that happened in the early days of blogging. Remember that. Oh, yes. So I'm so glad that hateful comments are thinking at the past. But yes, oh yes, intimately, intimately familiar. And I'm reading this and my jaw is a

gabe and I am just in a state of Catatonia. I couldn't move. I was ashamed, embarrassed, terrified that people in my office would see it, that the reputation of the firm was being sullied by me. And I didn't know what to do. I was despondent. I remember walking home from work that day, crying, thinking that I had to quit. I had to leave the design business and my career was over. This career that I had finally found for myself was now officially over. And I honestly

did not know what to do to him. I felt like if I wrote in that it would seem defensive, that it would bring more attention to this story, I felt that if I didn't write in that I would be missing an opportunity to at least contribute to the conversation with a point of view that might be different than theirs, I didn't know what to do. And looking back on it now, I'm actually really ashamed of what I did because it was disingenuous, but at the time it was the only thing that I

felt I could do. And so a few days after the story broke and the comments piled in, I contributed, and my first comment was, you're not going to approve of this. And we'll see. We'll see. I wrote, what a cool discussion. I love. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. You know, the book Cool Girl had not come out at that time, but had it been out, I would have said, that's what I was trying to be. I was trying to be the Cool Girl.

Nothing matters. I can eat five chili dogs and I don't gain weight. You know, I'm quoting the book. So yeah, I came in and that's what I said. But I ended up having the best possible back and forth, I could muster. I tried to talk about how we had constructed the Burger King logo and the amount of testing we had done around the world and how consumers really seemed to like it and who were they to sort of declare that it wasn't worthy. And I tried to be as opened and as defenseless as

possible. And ultimately, they continued to pile on some more insults and made fun of the practice that I had. And then a couple of people weighed in otherwise. And the final comment was from a man named David Weinberg who I'm since who have since become friends with as well, who at the time worked at Landor and wrote in. Landor is one of the world's biggest and most respected brand consultancies started by Walter Landor about eight or 90 years ago. And he wrote in, you know,

let's see what Felix could do with that Burger King logo and great work over there sterling. And that was sort of the end of that conversation. Nobody else came in with another comment. And what I thought was over really wasn't because the is the original writer of this open letter. Felix awkwardly overstrict designer. And then I thought it was over. I thought it had ended with some sort of a compromise and viewpoints. But to my chagrin, the writers at Speak Up kept writing about me.

And the next article was called is the dark side prevailing. So subtle. So simple. Very subtle. At that point, Tim, I was obsessed. I was going to the site 15 20 times a day constantly refreshing, seeing what they were writing about me and finally gave up and went to my IT person and said, put parental controls on my computer at work. I don't want to be able to see this site. And he did. Sometimes you need a helpful pair of handcuffs. Yeah. Well said. But I'd still, you know,

I'd go home and look, but whatever. A couple of weeks later, the founder of Speak Up, a young man about 23 years old named Armin Vitt reached out to me. He wrote me an email and he apologized. He didn't apologize for calling my work a pair of turds, which is what hit. I didn't realize turds came in pairs. It shows what I know. But he said he apologized for the bullying and for the unprofessional way in which the conversation ensued as opposed to he made it very clear that he

still thought my work was a pair of turds. But he didn't feel that it was right the way that I had been spoken to. And I took a lot of care and responding to him. I accepted his apology. But at the time, I was really fascinated by this whole blogging thing. It was really interesting to me the sort of real-time communication, holding people accountable. And I wrote him this sort of diet tribe about it. And he responded and said, well, would you like to write for the site?

And I was like, whoa, didn't expect that one. So I said, yes. And I started writing for Speak Up. The Darth Vader column. Well, what was so interesting about the experience, Tim, was that what the Speak Upers were calling the precious design world, the AIGA world, they had already rejected me. And now the renegades, the anti-AIGA contingent, they were rejecting me. So at that moment, I actually felt like the most hated woman in graphic design.

Masterless samurai. Where to? Exactly. So what happened after that was it was really surreal. And this is why I say that what felt like at the time in May of 2003 to be the lowest point of my professional career actually became the catalyst upon which everything else has been built. And so I started writing for Speak Up. And all of a sudden, I started to have that sense of what I had been originally searching for in my efforts with Speak Up. I felt like I was

part of something bigger than myself. I felt like I was part of this sort of renegade group of misfits that were trying to change the world through graphic design, criticism, and online conversations. We all decided that year in the fall of 2003 that we were going to go as a group of sort of guerrilla Speak Up writers to the upcoming AIGA annual conference in Vancouver.

And we were going to give out this little brochure that Armin had put together called Stop Being Sheep, which was a riff on the great typographer, Eric Speekerman's book Stop Stealing Sheep, which is about letter spacing. You know, within slicing here too, the very best of our ability. And so we went with this little brochure and route to the conference.

So these people then ended up accepting you? The people who had previously vilified you. You were the people that had previously vilified me, not only accepted me, but over the years, Armin and his wife, Briannie, and I have become such good friends that I am now the godmother to their eldest daughter. Wow. So sort of similar to that Robert Edelstein story back when I was in college where he rejected me or what I thought was a rejection of me, then ultimately became one of my

lifelong friendships. And now Armin and Briannie are also family at this point, family. Amazing. So I interrupted you're on route with this group of heretics and a pile of brochures or pamphlets. Right. Because brochures change the world, you know that. And I'm sitting next to people that are also there was at that time one direct flight from New York to Vancouver. The flight is filled with

design luminaries, Michael Bayrude and Paula Cher. And I'm sitting next to a woman who is beautiful and elegant and I'm wearing sweatpants and carrying a bag of McDonald's breakfast, you know, and the only people that like the way McDonald's breakfast smell of the people eating it, not the people smelling it. So true fact. That's yeah. You know, I don't know why I didn't think that I would see people that I knew on this flight. I was well, in any case. So I start talking to this woman

next to me and turns out she's going to the conference as well. I ask her what she does. She says she's a writer at Print Magazine. I tell her about Speak Up. She's all interested in what we're doing. She gives me I tell her that we're having this get together, this party over the course of the conference. She's I'd like to invite her. She gives me a card without looking at it. I put it into my bag.

We talk through a couple of hours and then we go off into our own thing with whatever else we were doing on the flight. When I get to my room in Vancouver, I take her card out of my bag and I see that she's the editor in chief, Joyce Redder-K. I invite her to the party. She comes and we start a correspondence. I had I harbored this hope that maybe I could write for Print Magazine one day. And a couple of months later, she writes me and asks me if I want to participate in something she's

putting together for the upcoming How Conference the next year in San Diego. At the time, reality TV had just sort of burgeoned into culture. There was a very popular TV show called Iron Chef about cooking in real time in the audience voting. She wanted to do a riff on that called ironic chef, where three designers would create work on stage in real time and the audience would vote. This to me sounded like the definition of hell. And just to clarify for people, Print Magazine

is actually called Print magazine. It is called Print Magazine. It's the oldest graphic design magazine in the country. It's 75 years old. It has one, I think five magazine awards, which is the highest honor and Fee, I believe it's called, that a magazine can win. And it's a remarkable magazine. And I had this dream of someday writing something for it. So ironic chef. Yes, ironic chef. Debbie Millen's personal version of hell. Yeah. And I'm afraid to say no. I feel like if I say

no, I'm never going to be offered an opportunity to do anything with Joyce again. So I say yes, and I'm further humiliated when I get to San Diego, when I realize that I have to wear a chef's outfit on stage. There are pictures of this, by the way, I'm not lying or exaggerating. So I go through with this. I am on stage with the MC Steve Heller, who I'd never met. Steve Heller is one of the world's foremost design critics. He was the art director of the New York Times book

review for 30 years. He started numerous programs at School of Visual Arts, graduate programs. And he's written about 170 books about design and graphic designers. He is the judge. I am terribly intimidated because he is Steve Heller, one of the greatest people that has ever lived. And there are three of us. I come in second, which is not terrible. I don't win, but I don't lose. And another aberrant moment of courage, I ask Steve because he was nice to me that day. If he'd

want to have lunch in New York City, when we were back, he lived in New York City as well. He agrees. We go to lunch. I was so intimidated. I had a cheat sheet that I'd prepared of topics in which I could discuss with Steve, wrote it on a paper napkin, put it in my lap, and I could refer to it if I choked and knew not what to say next. In any case, I had some book ideas. Steve told me they were both bad. I went away a little bit discouraged, but still happy that I met him and he told me that

I'd get a book just to be patient. Four months later, a publisher calls at the recommendation of Stephen Heller with a book that he had turned down. They had wanted him to write with the horrific title, how to think like a great graphic designer. Once again, I think if I don't say yes to this, I'm never going to be asked for anything again. I take on this book, but I ask them if I could do it in a different way because I didn't believe that there was just one way for a great graphic

designer to think. There were myriad ways. Could I interview great graphic designers and reveal how they think they agreed? That became my first book. In the meantime, Joyce, writer K, the editor of Print Magazine, reaches out and asks me if I'd like to write a review about Walliolens, then upcoming book on branding. I agree. I write my first piece for Print Magazine that year, and I've written for every single issue since. Wow. 13 years later, two years ago, I was appointed

the editorial and creative director of Print Magazine. Well, it seems like those brochures did play a role. Yeah. That's just the start of the tim. If it weren't for Speak Up and that story, I was then contacted by a fledgling internet radio network called Voice America in 2004, shortly after a piece that Mark Kingsley and I wrote about election graphics that kind of went viral. They wanted

me to host a show about branding. I was worried that if I said no, I'd never get another opportunity again and asked if I could sort of do it about branding, but maybe do it more about design and pitch this idea to them about design matters, a radio network show. They said, yes, just when I was beginning to think, oh, I might get rich from this. They told me that I needed to

pay them for the air time. Surprise. Another surprise. But I was really excited about this. And at that time, everything I was doing was very commercially driven and felt that this would be a way for me to talk about graphic design and engage with people in a way that had no commercial value, whatsoever. It was just all about how to satisfy sort of our souls, our creative souls. And that's how design matters was born. My podcast was born on this sort of Wayne's World

Esk Internet Radio Network called Voice America. I did the show for four years on Voice America, paid them for four years to do it and then brought the show to design observer, Bill Drentel, the late great, Bill Drentel, the founder of Design Observer invited me to bring the show over to design observer in 2009 with the proviso that I improved my sound quality.

I was doing my show with two handsets. You ever have a conversation with two people on the same phone line in your house and you're on different handsets and different parts of the house and the echo and all of that. Those were my early shows. But I had no idea what I was doing. There was no podcast when I started. I started to upload my show to iTunes just for the kick of it, just to be able to share it. And now 12 years later, three weeks, I'm going to have my 12th

anniversary of Design Matters. We won a Cooper Hewitt National Design Award in 2009, the end of 2015 iTunes. And you know this because you're always on the list. But after 11 years, iTunes designated it one of the best podcasts on iTunes. And I've transitioned the show from, I show about why Design Matters to the show about how creative people design their lives and the trajectory that

people take. Even from this conversation, you can probably tell how interested I am in how people make their lives, the choices that they make and how they live and what they dream about and what they become. And so that's the direction that the show has taken. And I'm about to approach my 300th episode. Congratulations. That's a huge milestone. And you being interested in the way that you are and with the intensity that you are interested, I think is very well reflected in

the episodes themselves. And we've spent some time in your studio. Yes. It is one of the most lovely and engaging conversations I've ever had in an interview format. It was such a relaxed and fun experience for me, which is not the norm as you know. So I certainly recommend everyone check out Design Matters. But I want to talk about some of your decisions. And specifically, we could talk for 20 hours. But I want to talk about a name that I had not heard in my life until

very recently. Milton Glazer. And as you'd mentioned, you'd done, I guess, brand-makeovers or branding for Burger King, Star Wars. I think you, Hershey's, Tropicana, I think. Yes. Yes. And tell me if I'm getting this wrong. But you know, at one point, if you walked in any grocery store, supermarkets, et cetera, you had a hand and say 20% of everything that you saw, something like that. Isn't that

crazy? Yes. It's not. I mean, that's mind-blowing when you consider the number of different products, right? The skis. And for people who are wondering what CPG is, consumer package goods. And at some point, your hand was involved in just an incredible array and plentative, different products. How did Milton Glazer enter the scene? And could you describe for people who he is? Milton Glazer is the elder statesman of the design world. And is the world's one of certainly one of, if not the

greatest living graphic designer? He's in his 80s. He is responsible for the I Heart New York logo. He did that iconic Bob Dylan poster of Bob Dylan in profile with the streams of colorful hair. He is one of the founders of New York magazine. The list goes on and on. He's had more impact and created some of the most memorable, well-known and iconic brands and identities in the world. My relationship with Milton really began when I took a class of his at the School of Visual

Arts, a summer intensive in the summer of 2005. I had already interviewed him for design matters, but it was over the phone. And while I cherish that interview, it was one of my very, very early interviews. So I'm somewhat gun shy to send people to listen to that one because it's so early

in my journey as a podcaster. But in any case, I took this class with him. And that class, you know, it's interesting about how we started the show talking about my eight-year-old drawing and you're talking about your friend who had written this essay that then predicted his life. Milton taught this summer intensive. I think for about 40 or 50 years, and he used to say that it

was one of the most important things that he did. He's not teaching it anymore. He had us do an exercise in that class where we had to envision the life that we could have if we pursued everything that we wanted with the certainty that whatever it is that we wanted, we would succeed. I wrote an essay in July of 2005. It was supposed to be a five-year plan. And he asked us to dream big and not to edit and said that it had a bit of a magical quality that he experienced with his

students over and over. So to be careful what we wished for. And I created this essay with these long-ranging, far-fetched goals that I can tell you now, 12 years later, have almost all come true. It is spooky, spooky. And so that's an exercise I do now with my students. Milton has had one of the most profound impacts on my life aside from, you know, the profound impact he's had on the world.

I feel really, really lucky that I have been a student of his and have gotten to interview him now numerous times and feel that my relationship with him is certainly one of the luckiest things that's ever happened to me. Can you describe the exercise as you do it with your students now? Well, I teach undergrad and graduate classes at the School of Visual Arts. I run a master's and branding program at the School of Visual Arts, which I was given this opportunity via Steve Heller,

who I again would not have met, had that whole speak-up experience not happen. So yet another thing, every single thing that I'm doing now in my life, Tim, stems from that experience. So just to underscore another theme, he had in some sense you could interpret it as rejected two of your book ideas, even though he's nice to you and went out to lunch with you, but now later on down the line you kept that relationship and lands you at SVA.

Absolutely. I mean, Steve is one of the most generous and engaging people I have had the privilege of knowing. And I often tease Steve and say that he's my fairy godfather because he's the only person in my life. Well, maybe one of two people in my life now that I could say has just been, he has this sort of generosity that is all about here. Take this, do that, make this happen. This is for you. With no strings, no ties, no obligations, it's just pure generosity.

And he has done that over and over and over and over again for me since meeting him back in 2004. So the exercise that I do now with my students, because they're quite a bit younger than I was when I was doing this five-year essay, or five-year plan, I asked them to do a 10-year plan. And so this gives them a chance to really mature into who they are in their 20s and into their early 30s. And it's this 10-year plan for what I call a remarkable life. And it's about imagining what your

life could be if you could do anything you wanted without any fear of failure. And they are the most life-affirming essays. They are so full of hope and optimism and well-being and goodness that it gives me a sense that humanity can be saved. And so I borrowed that exercise from Milton and now use that both in my graduate program and the undergraduate classes that I teach. This is going to seem nerdy, but I'm a nerd, so I'll run with it. And that is, do you have any

parameters for people at home who might want to try this? I recommend, foundations, ways to start. Is it bullets or is it pros and full-past? No, it's so it's all hairstyles. How does it end? Any recommendations for people who would like to give this a stab? So let's say it is winter 2027. What does your life look like? What are you doing? Where are you living? Who are you living with? Jeff Pets? What kind of house are you in? Is it an apartment? Do

you in the city? Or are you in the country? What does your furniture look like? What is your bed like? What are your sheets like? What kind of clothes do you wear? What kind of hair do you have? Tell me about your pets. Tell me about your significant other. Do you have children? Do you have a car? Do you have a boat? Do you have talk about your career? What do you want? What are you reading? What are you making? What excites you? What is your health like? And write this day, this one day,

10 years from now. So one day in the winter of 2027, what does your whole day look like? Start from the minute you wake up. Brush your teeth. Have your coffee or tea all the way through to when you tuck yourself in at night. What is that day like for you? Dream big. Dream without any fear. Write it all down. You don't have to share it with anyone other than yourself. Put your whole heart into it and write like there's no tomorrow, right? Like your life depends on it because it does.

And then read it once a year. See what happens. It's magic. It's magic. I love this. I love this. I need to do this. I'm not asking for some hypothetical listener. Listeners, I love you guys, but this is also for me. It is astounding. And I do this now with all of my students. And I can't begin to tell you how many letters I get from students from 10 years ago that are like Debbie. It all came true. How did this happen? And I am so thrilled that these things can make a

difference. And this goes back to the earlier part of our conversation about my own fears about

what I could or would or should become. And the idea that at that same time in my life, that intersection on bleaker street and sixth avenue, appearing deep into my future and not knowing that anything was possible for me to give somebody at that same stage in their life or any stage really, but particularly at that vulnerable stage when you are so worried about what you can or can't become to give somebody that's liver of a dream of a hope that this could happen and have

them declare what they want. I think is a remarkable exercise. That's why I call it your 10-year plan for a remarkable life. How long was your essay? Is there any consistency to length or their guidelines or is it as long as it takes and summer two pages, summer 20 pages? Summer two pages, summer 20 pages. I think the longer it is the more likely it is to be affirmed for some reason. I find the more care put into it, the more care and detail you put in. Oh, doggy. That's doggy.

Yeah, that's my Molly. So she's excited about this exercise. Please, please. That clearly. I think that the more care you put into it, the likely the more success you'll have coming out of it. Mine was, I wrote it in a journal that I was keeping at the time. So it was about five by seven. It was probably about 10 handwritten big handwriting. I'd big handwriting,

10 big handwriting pages. And it was the whole thing. And then because I was really excited about it and because I love lists, I made a list of everything that I wanted to come true. Well, I tell you, I think that might be a good place to wrap up this part one, which I think we may have more conversations in us. I have so many questions I'd still like to ask, but I think that is a given people have a primacy and recency bias. I want them to remember this exercise as one of

the actionable recommendations that they can certainly explore from this interview. And there's so much. But let me ask before I let you go the, and I'll ask where people can find you and so on. Learn more about your work. But before that, is there any parting piece of advice or recommendation question anything that you'd like listeners to carry with them when they stop listening to this? I recently went through a pretty major transition in my life. And it was something that I had to make

a pretty big decision about. And it was a somewhat prolonged agonizing decision so much so that my friends and loved ones were no longer listening to my sort of machinations and making the decision. Because I thought I never was going to actually make the decision. And so I can share that because I do think on the other side of that decision now is an important realization that I think can help people. I was working, I've had a full-time job since I graduated college. And the last 22

years I was working at a branding consultancy as I mentioned called Sterling Brands. And had been very lucky to be able to sell the company that I was a part of and ultimately a partner in after about 13 years of working there. So in 2008, the two partners that I had, the man that have originally hired me Simon Williams and then Austin McGee who is the third partner to come in

after me, we sold our company to Omnicom. And at the time, I had been offered this opportunity with Steve Heller to start the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts and organized my time so that my day job at Sterling Brands wouldn't be impacted by what I was going to be doing at SVA which was made possible by starting my branding program as an evening program. So I had

two full-time jobs a day job at Sterling in my night job at SVA. And most people thought that I would go through my earn out at Sterling and then leave and transition to working at SVA and doing all of the personal projects that I had been talking for so long about doing. So the five years happened and we had a really wonderful successful earn out so there was no

excuse for him for me to continue on the same path and it was time to make that change. And the last thing I wanted was to end up like the characters in Revolutionary Road that remarkable book where people talk about making these changes their whole lives and then never ever do. But I became

terrified. I became terrified that if I made this change that I would not have financial stability anymore that I would not be able to fulfill all of the dreams that I had and would have to confront that and so five years turned into six years and six years turned into seven years and just at a point where I was starting to think about really doing it sort of like El Pacino and Godfather 3.

I was offered an opportunity to take over as CEO of the company. Simon Williams then CEO was looking to become chairman and needed to appoint a new CEO and he came to me and asked me if I wanted the job.

And here it was. This is the big decision of a life. Do I become the CEO and have this amazing continuation of money and career and security and everything else that is conventionally approved of or do I say no actually I am not going to double down I'm going to live the way in which I have been saying I wanted to with more freedom and more opportunity to do personal projects and

pro bono projects and give back and I had a decide and it took me four months to decide. Simon Williams finally said to me, Debbie anything that takes you four months to decide probably means you don't want to do it. And it was the hardest decision of my life but I turned it down I turned

the CEO job down and then two things happened. First of all one of the things that I realized was that I was in this trapeze and rather than just let go of the trapeze and do something else I had every single crook of my body holding on to some other trapeze and that there was this sense of if I am

not doing enough I am not worthy if I am not making enough I am not worthy if I am not producing enough I am not worthy and suddenly I had to not just let go of the trapeze but let go of the entire apparatus and I have realized now two things one most people live in a world of scarcity we think that all we

have now is all we were ever have and if we give something up we will just have less. What ends up happening is that we don't think about all the possibilities of things that could come up if we give ourselves openings to receive them and so now as opposed to having less than what I thought I have way more because I have all these new things that I am doing that I never would have thought possible. Second that hard decisions are only hard when you are in the process of making them.

Once you make them they are not hard anymore then it is just life and freedom and it is an extraordinary experience that I really would like to share with your listeners with our listeners. It is such an important discussion on many levels and I want to think it is worth repeating a few things and certainly this echoes in my experience as well one that agonizing over the decision is often harder than whatever the outcome of the decision will be and for that matter if you

make in many cases not all but in many cases if you make a decision and you decide that it is not the right decision for you you can quit you can do something else it is not a permanent sentence necessarily and also this is something that I have had to learn and relearn many times in my life

which is if it is taking you that long to make a decision you probably don't and shouldn't don't want to and shouldn't do whatever it is that you are agonizing over with pro and conless trying to justify in some fashion it is in both of those points I think you are so so important.

I also think that if you are waiting for something to feel right before you do it if you are waiting for a sense of security or confidence that those things are sort of like being on a hedonistic treadmill if you think you need enough of this before you do that when you achieve whatever that

is you think you need you are going to then up the ante and you are never ever going to be satisfied with whatever it is you think you need before you do something if it is not something that is real if you think oh I need this much money before I do this when you get that much money then you are

going to realize oh I actually think I need this much more and it is just going to be this carrot in front of you that you are agonizing over trying to reach and then the other thing is I am going to quote Danny Shapiro here the great writer Danny Shapiro if you are waiting for confidence and she

I asked her once about confidence and she said that confidence is highly highly overrated and that most confident people or overly confident people tend to be kind of annoying and she said what she felt was more important than confidence was courage and I fully fully agree taking that

first step confidence really only comes from repeated attempts at doing something successfully but in order to take that first step you need courage and that is much more important than confidence over anybody that is waiting for the confidence to show up take the first step in a

moment of courage even if it is aberrant courage to come full circle in this conversation such good advice it reminds me of something that the brother Kamal Ravikant of another friend of mine Naval Ravikant told me that Naval is a very very successful entrepreneur and investor among other

things very very good writer as well as his brother Kamal just had a novel come out but Naval said to his brother if I always did what I was qualified to do I would be pushing a broom somewhere and I thought that was very very encouraging to Shay Debbie I have so much fun every time we

get to spend time together where can people find out more about you where can they learn more about your work where would you like people to say hello and social if that and I'll put all of this in the show notes for everybody you are absolutely I'm Debbie Millman on Twitter and Instagram

you can see more about my program at the School of Visual Arts at sva.edu and Debbie Millman dot com where you can listen to all my podcasts and see my visual essays and my books and so on and so forth for people who would be novices or new entrants into the world of say

graphic design recognizing that your podcast is about a lot more than that which episode or episodes would you suggest they start with I would suggest that they start with Chris where he is an extraordinary graphic novelist it's one of the most favorite episodes that I've ever

conducted how do you spell his last name w-a-r-e and from there some of my favorite episodes over the last year aside from my episode with you which I cherish my episodes with Amanda Palmer my episode with Alan DeBotan my episode with Christa Tippett Niko Mouli the great composer those

are all episodes in the last year that I'm most proud of Debbie your rock star thank you so much for the time thank you thank you I really appreciate it and to everybody listening as always you can find show notes links to resources all sorts of things that we talked about and maybe more at

fourhourworkweek.com forward slash podcast and until next time thank you for listening hey guys this is Tim again just one more thing before you take off and that is five bullet Friday would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun

before the weekend between one and a half and two million people subscribed to my free newsletter my super short newsletter called five bullet Friday easy to sign up easy to cancel it is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or

discovered or have started exploring over that week it's kind of like my diary of cool things it often includes articles on reading book some reading albums perhaps gadgets gizmos all sorts of tech tricks and so on they get sent to me by my friends including a lot of podcast guests and

these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you so if that sounds fun again it's very short a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend something to think about if you'd like to try it out just go to tim.blog slash Friday type that into your browser tim.blog slash Friday drop in your email and you'll get the very next one thanks for listening this episode is brought to you by eight sleep I have been using eight

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