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Hello boys and girls ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show where it is my job to sit down with world class performers from every field imaginable to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books and so on that you can apply and test in your own lives. This episode is a two for one and that's because the podcast recently hit its 10th year anniversary which is insane to think about and past one billion downloads to celebrate.
I've curated some of the best of the best some of my favorites from more than 700 episodes over the last decade I could not be more excited to give you these super combo episodes and internally we've been calling these super combo episodes. Because my goal is to encourage you to yes enjoy the household names the super famous folks but to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider stars.
These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle perhaps you missed an episode just trust me on this one we went to great pains to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests you can find that and more at Tim.log slash combo and now with a further ado please enjoy and thank you for listening.
First up Greg McEwen the New York Times best selling author of essentialism the discipline pursuit of less and effortless make it easier to do what matters most and host of the Greg McEwen podcast. You can find Greg on Twitter at Gregory McEwen.
People don't do moderation well I decided to go off sugar a year ago almost a year ago New Year's Eve talking to somebody I've been thinking about doing it for a while they've been off sugar for 12 years and I'm like okay you can do 12 years I can do a year I'm gonna make this decision if I've gone 95% of sugar I'll know I'm out before I begin.
Everything's an exception well that's you know that's amazing cake I got to eat that I mean that's this is a holiday I'm gonna eat that is the weekend I'm going out of the way my wife I got it I've got to eat it now she's eating that kind. Everything's an exception so I think there's a variety of things in life that it's a much much easier to go 100% than it is to go 95% because what you're doing is you're taking out the decision process it's done we are not doing sugar.
I don't have to think every time and by the way there's crazy amounts of sugar in this world. Yeah I don't have to think about it every time decisions already made the first I want to just mention one of the concepts in essentials and that I really appreciate it is trying to find the one decision that removes a thousand decisions such as the elimination sugar that you mentioned is just one example.
I will tell you where I struggle and I think I'm better than maybe average Joe or Jane at saying no to things I'm quite good but one of the great ironies of writing a book called say essentialism or the four hour work week is that if those concepts hit and the books do well you suddenly have a flood a torrent of inbound requests and all sorts of new categories of things to contend with.
And I find myself struggling to say no to people who probably land on the spectrum of good acquaintance to reasonably good friend who ask for help with various things and there are certain things that I feel very comfortable saying no to like the booklobs.
But I have hundreds of requests those aren't all from friends but doesn't certainly for promotion of their books on social it's usually book related because people want their books to sell being on the podcast you name it I feel like friends who do not fully think of the ramifications of their request oftentimes when it's last minute where they wouldn't ever go to the New York times the day before they have something come out and ask for a word.
For everything to be reshuffled for their benefit that is what ends up having to me on a fairly regular basis so I think I allocate too much time to trying to explain myself to those people or placate those people in some way. And I would love to hear your thoughts on best practices or heuristics related to that specifically because I don't view myself as a people pleaser.
But nonetheless with this particular subset of people I do find it really challenging and there are times when people I would like to maintain a good relationship with who come to me last minute for help that I cannot deliver without massively inconveniencing my entire team and reshuffling get very pissed in a way or they take it very personally and maybe that's okay I tend to think that it is and I'm going along here but it's I think a challenge that a lot of people face.
What are your thoughts? Well let's just agree on the problem first of all because as a CEO friend of mine once told me that I take every time and resource estimate that's given to me now and I multiply it by pie. So he's saying I thought he was a graduate here first but he's saying people so massively underestimate everything and there is another heuristic for this right it's called the planning fallacy.
The final fallacy is saying we assume and underestimate almost all the time how long things will take and we do that even with things we have done ourselves before driving from point A to point B takes us 15 minutes but if we're in the middle of writing an email we will convince ourselves we can do it in five minutes this time.
We've got all green lights everything's going to work out somehow we've done a five minutes of course it doesn't take that long take 50 minutes and we're late for the meeting but we want to call ourselves into it. What you're describing I think has two pieces to it the first is this piece and the second is the relationship impact of how to handle this but what you're describing is a problem where somebody is really underestimating what their request is.
They're saying in their head they're going this is a two minute favor to him it's not hard all you have to do is put out a tweet how hard can it be or whatever.
And so in there had their ask is very small but the reality is that they're asked is much bigger they also don't think about the reputational risk or anything like that of endorsing something that I don't have time to read a for instance well that's exactly so so I think that there is something around this again before we get to the relationship impact of maybe you already did it but of actually creating one page you got the email bounce back document.
Having a page that says look this is the real cost the total cost of ownership of me saying yes to this and maybe there's even once it's created it could be use in a variety of ways one is reactively right when the request comes in okay I need you to read this first I need to understand.
But maybe there's a proactive approach which is like look I'm just putting this out there this is what this actually costs because even what you just said reputational cost not the people I'm thinking about that.
Yeah they're just thinking about getting there thing achieved and so being able to try and calculate all that the total cost of ownership I mean that's what you have to do with the planning fallacy is we have to consider the total cost so that we don't start projects that we don't complete in fact there's a new times just ran a piece about exactly this I'm aware of because it is quoting essentialism in trying to address the problem but of all these projects we start we don't finish this is just a version of that problem and maybe are being thoughtless maybe.
They don't think they're being thoughtless they just think it's not a big deal for you and they don't understand the full range of impact so I think writing this out I've almost like it's a recipe this is the cost and in that I think in the helpful side of it you could say so in the future if you want to be considered this is the process you would need to go through so again what's happening is that you've got to help other people's problems be their problem.
Right and there's a story that I came across with a book that I really like on this principle which is I think it's a true story I can quite remember now but it's a doctor cloud is talking about meeting with a couple has been a wife parents and they come to see him and they say they say look you know I'm a son we have so many problems with our son.
He's on drugs these these treated all the time he's living back home with his now I mean he's just not got a job is everything is just such a mess for us it's just so concerned and he says okay.
Well I understand where is he though right you have an appointment here to deal with this where is your son they said well you know he doesn't really see that he has a problem and Dr. Platt says well I think he's right and the shock to that what do you mean that he's right or you can just describe the other problems he said no he says he said listen he says if you look outside your window in the morning and your sprint
ahead when your lawn is faulty and it's spring on your neighbor's grass and your neighbor's grass is green and your grass is dying who has the problem you've got the problem right because your grass is dying you know you haven't had a problem their grass is fine your son doesn't have a problem because he's comfortable at home with you he has to do
whatever he wants he's looked after life is fine he doesn't have a problem you have a problem and your job now is to help your son to have a problem let your son have his problem you'd be well intended but you got it all wrong you've got to let him own it if he doesn't have a problem if everything's taken care of for him he can't move forward he can't get better and so now obviously it's a bit strong to use that example with the example that you led this conversation with but it is a
similar principle is that there has to be a boundary and there has to be an education of going you've made this from my problem right now let me just lay this out so that you can own the problem so in the future we can do this perhaps in a better way yeah it makes perfect sense I I was told something not not too terribly long ago maybe two
years ago which was along the lines of a line you could use with such people all they probably have to dress it up a little bit which is you know your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency right right which is I suppose in theory makes a lot of sense but it sometimes falls by the wayside in practice due to fear of social repercussions which we can get to in a second I mean I've had some awful
experiences and I don't want to turn this into a 100% Tim Ferris therapy session but just so people know for those people out there who may be like oh yeah that Tim Ferris he never agreed to X or whatever it is I've had instances were journalists from mainstream publications have reached out for book blurbs or help with their own projects I've Paul very politely declined because I've been unable to help them in the capacity they required and they've gone on to write like hit pieces or
hatchet pieces or slam pieces about me out of spite and it's like that kind of shit happens so I think I'm a little once bitten twice shy from a lot of those experiences but ultimately does any of that prevent me from doing the essential project that we discussed not really that right there is a course is exactly the point you know one can say let's take the opposite
argument from moment and I'll just play non-essentialist to the conversation which is yes Tim you're guessing it wrong you're thinking about yourself too much and every single request that someone from media or any
friend or any acquaintance that anything that they want from you you should be saying yes because you know you got help by lots of people therefore you're under total obligation to do it for everybody else and you got this wrong so is that argument right and is it really right it could be right
is it right I don't think it's right and even if it were right it's not sustainable right even if you have something if something's not sustainable that's like foundationly clear that it can't be right it's like by definition it's something
that's not sustainable will not continue it cannot continue right so what you just said which is awesome is like it's correct other than it's impossible yeah right right but you've just done for the favor which is that you've helped us to understand the basic foundational error with non-essentialism
like the problem with non-essentialism is that is the only problem happens to be alive it's just got that inconvenience associated with it you can't actually do everything can you imagine how many books were being sent to Oprah at the height of her the Oprah show and everything
just insane yeah where where houses for had to be where houses for are going that way and she had to get somehow we assume she appeared to get to a level of peace we're going look there's no way I can even touch any of that stuff
I've got to be true to this voice within me of clarity about what my mission is and my essential mission and not all of this other stuff it's not being unhelpful to the world but you to say no to something that's less important is not being unhelpful or selfish in the world
that I don't buy that your obligation is to the highest point of contribution you can make and but what I think happens a lot is that people get caught up in the idea that can I do this thing it's like they pretend there's nothing else going on in their life the request comes in and they go can I do this oh yes I can do this I know how to do is I can make this happen and that's not life that's non-essentialist junk that's just rubbish the question is if I do this thing what doesn't get done
what else gets pushed out now I'm not saying don't be helped the people that come requesting things that can be absolutely ways of helping people I want to help people but if it's at the cost of something that's actually more important that makes a higher contribution we have a obligation not to do it
there's one more piece here which is important which is that you don't want to hurt these relationships and that's where the concern really comes from so the question is is how can you deal with this in a way that minimizes the damage to you through some media outlet stuff
doing some hit piece or help you to understand the context behind it and I think that still comes back to at least for yourself writing this all out you know this is what I am trying to do and why it matters I mean in a way it's having the conversation we've just had but written out so that it can be expressed again and again and again the why behind this answer the why it's the thing that we miss out on so let's in fact move to step three so step one was what is essential step two is what is
non-essential and step three is how do you create a system that makes executing what's essential as effortless as possible it's a perfect way to get there at this point because because having this written out document I mean how you'll use it is I'm not sure yet about that in my own head but if you have it clearly written out this is what I'm doing this is why this is the cost of disrupting that this is what it does this is who will lose out if I don't stay focused on this now
all of that becomes like a communication core for yourself a place to pivot to when the request comes in and you go oh I maybe I can change you know everything today to make that possible and you go hold on let's go back to the document my assistant was away for a little while couple of weeks and the amount of damage I managed to do in those couple of weeks ridiculous you know the number of things I managed to commit to I tend to come back actually she's gone for a
month I'm remembering now it's for her honeymoon and she comes back I was very positive I wasn't saying I've messed everything up I said let me tell you all the things that happened in the month you've gone and it was just had a little silence at the end of it all because she's like if she didn't say it but this is what's in the silence it's like what's wrong with you you know how are you thinking that you can take on all
of those projects and all of those ideas you know like you aren't thinking fully about the cost of doing all those things that she was dead right and what grew out of that is we came up with three rules of things that I would and wouldn't do and I'll give one of the rules was no personalization
and I don't do any personalization so if I'm doing he knows workshops whatever I'll listen I'll understand what the company or the client at the conference needs but I'm not going to redo rethink re-change I'm not changing the slide I'm not changing that you know the subtle
things you can do in the moment but I'm not redoing stuff because if you personalize everything as I have I want to do it's like you're rewriting the book every time I mean you have to rethink everything as that was one rule and we had two other rules there there those are so helpful
are you willing to share the other two rules I should know what they are right if I say there's three rules and we're really useful to it if they come up they come up we can also wait for them to surface yeah so actually one was don't over correct it based on a negative feedback
that's a little more vulnerable to shout out one but I think everybody suffers with that that's that's why you know that which is most personal's most universal right so we do an event do a conference gets good feedback one of the people you know in the comments says X and I think
she's absolutely right that is a valid criticism let's change it let's redo how we're doing this to address that concern it's the same sort of thing it's it's overreacting to it and frankly when you overreact to this kind of feedback you really cause a problem for other people giving feedback
and I in hindsight can see how that's been in my life right somebody is trying to be helpful they're trying to be honest they're giving the feedback and I'm multiplying the effect of it so that was number two and I think number three might have been something like it's like either no new projects
like beyond what we'd identified like we've very identified a couple of really big things I want to go after it's like no new projects outside of that it might have been specifically no workshop business which is there's always a demand for it with essentialism there's always been interest in it I
always feel an obligation because of one there's a need people are interested and two just I think now there's there's a full business here and and it could easily be or have been successful business and those things have keep pulling me into it and I just whenever I start working on it I'm like
you see a kid on the floor not throwing a tantrum they just line on the floor like legs spread out arm spread out just like they have no energy to even get up off the floor this is how much passion they feel for being in the supermarket on this day they're just like nothing here is interesting
not one part of me wants to be getting up and doing this that's how I feel in that business it's just not what I'm supposed to be doing and my my forces has had hear me say that in one way or another so many times okay I know I should do this okay let's do it oh really good make it happen
and finally he's just like look there's no part that you that wants to do this why are you doing business so we imagine I think those are the three rules we got that could you perhaps elaborate on what the personal quarterly offside is it's creating space for you to actually think long term about what really matters in the greatest scheme of things I mean it's the same as any executive team they have a quarterly offside and annual offside why do they do it because they know if they don't
are going to get buried in reacting to approximate issues instead of seeing strategically where they want to be headed and what trade-offs they need to make in order to get there and it's just the same for at the individual level my wife and I started doing quarterly offside two three years ago
in fact one of the things I did to plan for a strict system to make sure we followed through is I did it where we had a few people come together and I was sort of leading the process but underneath it one of the important intents of it was so that and then I could actually have a full day once
every quarter you know way from everything else and to think about the long-term goals and out of that process for us what are you doing on that in that process you you're saying okay what's happened over the last big picture you could say okay what's happened in my life what's the long-term
perspective here where am I where wherever I've been what's been going on so you're trying to get a clear view of of your life what's been going on with it and then you said okay going forward long-term perspective what would I like to be achieved what feels important again it's not just
success it's not just goal setting you could set the wrong goals it's what's essential to me what it feels like my mission to pursue and I remember in that very first official session that we did and she was going through the process had identified a couple of things that were really important
and I could tell they were they had been within her but they just sort of came to us the surface one of them was a I don't know like sound funny to people but but it was like horses horses right that's a weird thing to say isn't it a horse is that's not you expect me to say she said I just had this
vision of having a place with horses and it's not necessarily even that we were on the horses it wasn't even necessarily that and we don't have any horseback that it's not a good horse people I mean I nothing like that but it was a sense of if we were to achieve what that means our children
would grow up in a certain kind of environment you know it was like a symbol of a certain type of childhood and our children were at the time were sort of in the golden years which means the years before their driving and after their out of diapers and so it's like a magical period because
you can do things you can make memories together you can do it and we weren't living in a place at the time we were in the middle of Silicon Valley which is terrific in lots of ways but it's not you're not going to end up with horses right you have to think differently and that single insight
in that court we offsite shifted a whole sense of intent and we realized if we want to do this while our children are still in this golden years we're going to have to move sooner rather than later to be able to achieve this dream otherwise we're going to achieve it after at least the eldest is out of the house and then well as the point and so it was an insight a strategic insight that has had profound influence on a you know it's a one decision that makes a thousand there's a whole
series of things we have to do to put in process to be prepared to organize it to find such a place and so on and it took a while to do it but it took a couple of years maybe maybe as much as that now we live in a community that you're required to have space for horses you don't have to have them
you have to have space for them and that single criteria again makes a lot of other influences change right you're going to be around a lot of nature you're going to be even the kind of people in some ways that you're around a certain value system that they care about now all
those kinds of things and so that's sort of a personal example of why to hold personal quarterly offsites it shifts the whole direction you're going in it it tilts and bends your narrative as you go forward do you have any recommendations for other format best practices or any best practices
for personal offsites is that in afternoon is it a day is it two days is it in your living room is it off site okay I think here's what I think I think it's off site it's in nature or they're about it's somewhere that's quiet uninterrupted I know of some people I've never done this but I know
of someone who has a second phone and their second phone is like one of these little credit cards sized phones and only two people in the world that have the number to this phone and so when they go it means they can be reached for emergency but that's it as they are just gone so that they can
have an unattractive space which is very hard to have these days so you want to be in an uninterrupted environment you want to not have pegs the email and all of that available I recommend you either do it on your own or maybe with one other person you know a design partner that you can really go
through the process I think that the longer the perspective is the better the one I was referring to we actually started prior to our life to started it great grandparents in fact great grandparents parents your own life and then going forward at the end of your life your kids grandkids great
grandchildren or if you don't have children it's just the people that you would influence generations from now and it's that kind of huge vision that kind of level of perspective that helps to draw up within you an unexpected insight something that you already know but somehow is being buried
because you're thinking about life in just sort of reactive ways either whole ideas to create space to be able to discern that voice we will have lots of names for it right but we'll just the voice your own conscience your own sense of direction and it's to be able to listen to that
so that you can discern again between all these good things all these different fools and so on and really what you came here to do and that's the point of it just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show this episode is brought to you by Wealth Front there
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So I thought I would just establish some bonafides right off the bat and then we're going to do a little chronological shuffling so first I want to read a quote from the team portion of the website so under your name at conscious.is there's a quote from Dustin Moskovitz now for those who don't
know who Dustin is Dustin is co-founder of Asana prior to that he was co-founder of Facebook in 2011 he was at least at the time the youngest self-made billionaire in the history of the planet as far as I know and here's the quote quote working with Diana has dramatically changed the way I react to
challenges and stress in my life preserving my energy to direct towards more constructive pursuits as a coach she has a gift for guiding me through introspection on the stories I create about events and people in a structured way that inevitably leads to prospective shifts.
We can't control the fact that bad things are going to happen but how we react to those events is what really matters and that we can learn how to control when we have the right attitude and resourcing adversity becomes strictly an opportunity to learn and grow okay so this is the kind of
quote that a lot of folks would kill for maybe die for certainly amputate a few fingers for before we dig into all sorts of juicy bits that we could pull out of that quote as a jumping off point I want to go back to 1997 so I did not expect to find this I didn't expect to find anything
in particular but this is what I found this is on critio.com in 1997 Diana Chapman was a stay at home mom teaching scrapbooking in Ann Arbor Michigan quote as mainstream a life as they come and quote she says I didn't know any of this so number one you can't believe everything you read on
the internet so is this true and then assuming some aspect of it is true could you tell us about the gift from your brother-in-law around that time yeah so it is true I was the quintessential stay at home mom all things being with my kids being part of the school you know head of the pta all
that good stuff and I was though very interested in personal development spirituality human consciousness that was always in the background but I was very devoted to my children I was teaching scrapbooking to other moms I mean I was so cute I was really cute and my brother-in-law was a
top CEO in the country and he was very very devoted to personal development and he was a kind of sewer of finding great coaches and I think the truth was that he and my sister-in-law were concerned about my marriage and wondered if we were going to make it and so they recommended that we go out
to California and take a training with gay and Catholic Hendrix of the Hendrix Institute and so actually they gave us five grand he said you can do whatever you want with the money but I'm gonna recommend you go out to California so I joyfully could not wait to go I didn't know anything about them but he said they're the best so off we went and it was a profoundly life-changing week and I thought to myself why am I just learning these tools and I'm gonna devote the rest of my
life and making sure people get access to them and that's what I've done. What did you feel or experience or what changes did you observe that led you to have such a strong reaction? First of all I learned about this thing called the drama triangle which many people out there may have heard about but I realized my whole life is running around on this drama triangle and the drama triangle was created by Stephen Cartman back in the 70s and he defined ways in which
human beings get caught in victimhood that create reactivity and I realized I'm on the triangle most of the time and there is a big cost to me and my people when I'm on a drama triangle and so that was the wake-up call for me and then I just spent every day sense looking for all the tools I can for how to keep myself out of that triangle as much as possible. Since you mentioned it let's just jump right into the drama triangle could you give us an overview of what it is and how you
might use it? Okay so Cartman says many of us got trained to live in a state of victimhood and there are three unique flavors of victimhood in the drama triangle we call them bases so the first base is the pure victim and the pure victim you know it's so hard here I'm trying I don't know it's just
any kind of a help you know it's got this very disempowered feeling and it's somehow like they've got the power somebody else has it not me and I'm very at the effect of things so I could be at the effect of my bank account at the effect of this email that just came in at the effect of the traffic
at the effect of the new policy I'm going back to work at the effect of COVID all those things are forms of being a victim then the next role in the drama triangle is the villain and the villain's job is to blame so I can blame me God I should have known that I should have been more prepared or
any should have over here on me or I'm not smart enough or I can't count on myself that's all villaining toward myself or we can villain toward another you know you you're the reason why I'm not having as much fun as I could be having or we could be a villain to a group of people which is
very popular in our culture so we all know who's screwing it up for the rest of us you know it's that group over there and everybody's pointing to particular groups who are the bad guys so villains very popular because it gets our adrenaline really kicking in.
I think it's actually in the terms of service on Twitter that you have to play that role when you use the service anyway just decide no. Right who's screwing it up who's wrong yeah you don't know you're wrong I'm right and so the last role in the drama triangle is the hero it's also called
the reliever or the rescuer and the hero's job is to seek temporary relief so oh my god I had such a hard day to day at work let me come home I'm going to drink my alcohol or do my gaming or get lost in Netflix or whatever I'm going to do to give myself some temporary relief and it works but
I got to do it again tomorrow because tomorrow I'm going to come home potentially burn out again and then I'm going to have to do the same pattern so heroine is temporary relief over and over again so I can hero myself I could hero another you know oh you look like you're struggling at work and
let me take over some of your work that you're doing I could do that from a place of real presence but when I'm in hero doing it I'm actually creating some co-dependence where I keep needing you to not be able to handle your work so I can keep helping and then I'll resent you over time and then
we can hero them you know there's a lot of flanthropies especially in the past they're getting better at this now where we just store a bunch of money at a population and then next year they have all the same issues and they need more money and nothing ever really changes so the key thing is
temporary relief so we all know the story about you can give the man a fish every night or you could teach him to fish for himself so the hero gives the man the fish night after night after night and if you're off the drama triangle you shift to a place where you see people as empowered and
the hero ask good questions to help people get more effective around them so my next question I want to share an observation from my rereading of the book and then the next question just to plant the seed is I'm going to ask you why it's called the drama triangle what drama actually means
here but in my reread which I'm in the middle of right now of the 15 commitments of conscious leadership which was recommended to me by Dustin and I think it was also recommended in my last book and tribe of mentors by Dustin and there's a section that I needed to reread which was related to
the drama triangle and it pointed out that the villain could take the form of someone in the meeting who to try to resolve conflict or maybe not resolve to try to minimize conflict always takes the blame like eventually at the end of the meeting they just say you know what it's my fault
I should have done this this this this and this and it's easy at least for me to conflate radical responsibility with overly blaming myself for everything and I don't actually have a great way to approach navigating discerning those two for me if that makes any sense so we could try
to unpack that or we could jump to why it's called the drama triangle but I'll let you choose the direction well let me do both so the reason why it's called the drama triangle is because the whole triangle is set up for a na na na it's I'm right you're wrong you're to blame or I'm to blame
it's not asking everybody to really take a hundred percent responsibility for how they're co-creating experiences so if I'm in the drama triangle the villain if I'm taking on I'm more responsible what happens is I'll say oh I'm here at the meeting you guys and look it's my fault I'll take
some of your responsibility and take it all on me and so there is a place to say hey I have a part in how I've co-created this let me tell you my part that would be me taking my hundred percent I would also know that everybody else has a part to play too so I'm not taking on their
responsibility as well that's the difference between a villain and somebody who's just simply acknowledging I have a role to play here got us thank you so we were chatting before we started recording and you and I have left spoke and quite a few times before we've met before
spent time together and you asked me why I invited you on to the podcast and there are a number of answers I gave one of them was related to kinesthetic awareness or what our mutual friend and your business partner Jim Deppmer have called least in mind in his notes to me for this conversation
this may be your term for all I know BQ so like IQ EQ but body intelligence and I feel like you're very well calibrated for this and when we spoke maybe a year and a half ago two years ago I was working on this no book you might recall and then as I kept working on it kept working on I kept
coming up with great reasons to say no to the entire book which was very meta and I ended up stopping but we spoke a lot about the whole body yes and I would love to maybe use that as a wedge to start the conversation because I found this so incredibly helpful when I am certainly prone to
over-intellectualizing everything into some extremely complicated matrix or spreadsheet or god knows what so could you lead us into that in whatever way makes sense sure the idea is that we have these different centers of intelligence so we have our head our heart our gut and IQ EQ BQ are some
of the ways we might be describing those things these days so body intelligence is a recognition that I have an instinctual awareness that is known by my sensations known by how the body feels and that there's a lot actually there that if we start to drop into the body and pay attention
it's got a lot of guidance for us as does our emotions as does our intellect and so I do have a ton of access to my body intelligence I think it's what I lead with in my own getting clarity about which directions to go in my life and I put a lot of attention on it so it's very
palpable to me my body screams often you know no don't do that even though my intellect might have an understanding of why let's if you wouldn't mind walk people through how they might understand and use the whole body yes because for me when something is screaming I'm decent at paying
attention but it's not always a scream sometimes oftentimes it is it is a little more nuanced so could you walk people through the whole body yes and what the flight checklist looks like well I could have people if we wanted to go through an experience of starting to feel what their whole
body yes and nose feels like great yeah let's do that let's do that we do that it's very experiential so it'll take about 10 minutes and I'll have people they're listening I'd recommend they close their eyes wonderful we have that work we have all the time in the world this isn't
morning television okay so the idea is that your body knows when there's a no when there's a yes and when there's a what I'm going to call a subtle no and we say anything other than a whole body yes is a no and to your point it's easy to hear those screaming nose but not so easy to hear the
subtle no for example someone contacted our organization the other day and he wanted to talk and it wasn't clear to me whether he was trying to sell us something or whether he genuinely had clients that he wanted to connect us with and even in my I had suspicions that it wasn't as
clean as he was suggesting and I asked for clarification in his clarification still I couldn't really tell but my body did know I felt this flat feeling in my body when I thought about having the call and unfortunately my head said well maybe you're not sure so let's have the call and indeed it
was a sales call and it was not a good use of my time and I quickly hung up that was a time in which I skipped over my no because it was very subtle and my intellect started to get worried like what if I'm missing something and you know what if you don't know so I use this all the time and
I'm still learning as I did just last week to pay attention to the intelligences they're outside of just my intellect and so for you all if you want to learn more about this but I'd like you to do is close your eyes and I'd like you to bring to mind an experience from the past that was deeply
valuable to you it was something that was nurturing it was something you would gratefully repeat that scene again it could be time when you were celebrated it could be a time when you were in a highly creative state that made something valuable it could be a time when you were in nature feeling
deeply centered so I'd like you to go back into that scene as best you can and see the images of that scene and hear the sounds and as you're in that scene I want you to start to pay attention to the body and see if you can notice just simply how the body is vibrating right now
when you imagine yourself in that scene seeing those images hearing the sounds how does your body vibrate is there a particular direction in which energy is flowing through the body now some of you might go Diane I'm not feeling anything here that's fine just imagine if you were
feeling something let it be okay that it might feel like pretend just for now is there a certain temperature that you notice in the body for some people they might feel very specific sensations that might feel like shapes inside the body and some people might be auditory and hear tones
or see visuals in their minds eye what you're doing here is getting a map of what does a whole body yes feel like I'm just strolling around inside of the body feeling what you're feeling no right or wrong answers here and everybody's so unique we all have our own different ways we feel it
but for me my body gets warm there's an uprising of energy it flows up for me there's a push in the flow for me but yours will be what it is and so then I'd like you to take one last like a memory take a memory shot of this so you can
remember what this feels like and then I'd like you to shake it off and let it go and then I'm going to think of a scene in the past that you don't want to repeat and I don't recommend finding something traumatizing find something that you really didn't feel like was a good
use of your time didn't serve you you don't want to repeat it ever again or you prefer not to if you can bring that image to mind and again see the visuals of that memory and hear the sounds and I want you to notice what happens now in the body is there a different way that bodies vibrating how is the direction of energy flowing or not flowing in this version is there a difference in temperature and the other significant sensations or shapes you feel in the inner on the body and again tones
in the ears or visuals in your mind's eye may also be included and you're getting a map for what no this is a big no uh-uh I don't want I don't want this I don't think this is going to serve me just mapping the territory in the body for what does this feel like
and then take one last picture of that and shake that one off and then we felt one more to do and this is the subtle no this is similar to what I was just describing earlier of taking a meeting you know it didn't kill me to take the meeting it didn't hurt last 10 minutes I got off the phone
but I don't it wasn't a yes it wasn't in the live experience for me so this is called a subtle no so I want you to think back everybody's got in the last two to four weeks something that's happened in which it was a eh wasn't bad wasn't good eh so if you can come back and see that scene in your
mind's eye and hear those sounds then you're going to check and see what does subtle no feel like for you how do you experience that scene what do you notice in the body how does it vibrate here how does energy flow or not flow is there a difference in temperature what parts the body light
up sensations in tones or visuals as well trying on here and again if you notice don't notice much that's okay just imagine if you did notice what would you notice and this is your map for what a subtle no feels like and you want to remember this feeling so the next time somebody says
hey you want to go out to lunch or could you meet me to talk about ABC that you if you feel this likely it's an invitation for you to try know so you can shake that one off and then we'll bring our attention back to the ongoing conversation how is that for you Tim it's a great exercise it's
been a long time since I've done an inventory like that and I took notes I took some notes and I'll share a few things just in case this helps other people I noticed that all three had different breathing patterns the breathing was very different cadence and feeling nice so that
was seem to be a very clear variable across the three and just the given example of the clear no the strong no was frontal head tension chest tightness feeling hot none of which exists in the yes state as an example and then I thought of this subtle no which I I don't think I've spent much
time on before which is hilarious because of course it's probably where I need to spend the most time is assessing that and I thought of this experience recently it was the first example they came to mind because I really try not to say yes to things but sometimes you say yes to things it
seemed like a yes and then you get into the experience and it's not a yes right the the bill of lading was deceptive and I ended up at this dinner that was kind of play fancy I didn't expect it to be play fancy but it was an expensive dinner and it just was not enjoyable the food wasn't great
and I didn't want to be there and I was thinking of this experience and I noticed that in contrast to the strong yes and the strong no both of which have a certain degree of focus I in the subtle no have a very I wrote down shifty energy and fidgety like just like feeling unsettled
aha and that then I suppose becomes your landmark off in the distance where you can orient yourself with respect to decision making or continuing or not continuing with something so I found this very helpful and I should also just mention that this has historically been a what would we call it
a development opportunity aka weakness growth opportunity slash massive Achilles heel this body awareness I think there we can spend a lot of time on it we don't need to but just I learned to dissociate very effectively really early on in my life for a lot of reasons and so it's getting
reacquainted with feeling has been a long process and thank you for that I found that very helpful could you help us connect this to how people would use this inventory so I'd recommend starting out using it in really simple ways so start with looking at a menu and as you're looking at the menu
just notice like does that fidgety come in when you look at the sandwich you know versus the sandwich and see if you can start to see what yes feels like or you're driving back home and you've got a couple of different routes to take home you know try on okay I'm gonna go this way and notice what
happens in the body versus I go this way so you're just gonna make make this a practice for things that don't have a lot of meaning that you know it's not a big deal and then as you you can also do it with time let's say you're thinking about gathering up with a group of friends and they say
what time try on like okay well what if we met at five and just notice what happens in the body when I try five and then five thirty and six and six thirty and just see if you've got like a place where your body starts to harm like oh wow six thirty that's where it really hit and then
let's choose six thirty so that's a way to do it and then what you'll notice is at least for me I really liked the results I kept creating in these simpler options and then I just kept using it more and more so with more important decisions and then now the biggest decisions this is something
I choose regularly and I I've learned to trust it so that you know I had a client who I thought was in trouble in another country and I contacted the family and said I think you need to go help this person and you know they're like you want us to leave and go go check on this family member
and I said my body was shaking with clarity about it my head was like I don't know I'm not I couldn't tell you for sure but my body knew and they went and it turned out it was a really could have been a life saving moment that they went and intellectually I had some data but my body was the
one that really guided me to be aggressive in getting that person support yeah this this has been really impactful for me and it seems so simple and on some levels it is but I mean very often it's the simple valuable things that we neglect perhaps because we think they are simplistic but that's
not the same thing and I think that it's common also for people who are very head centered intellect focused who've been rewarded for that to just end up being a hammer looking for nails basically and I had a lot of trouble identifying what yes felt like and I still do if I'm being honest
okay there are times when it's super obvious when I'm just like the yes in all caps and like marquee lights and neon yes okay fine then I when it bashes me over the head with like awesomeness I know what that feels like but if it's in some cases I'm meeting or an investment or a person
or a dinner with certain people it's hard for me to identify what a full body yes feels like but I know what it doesn't feel like if I go from my head to chest to gut if there's any tension in one of those three it's a no good then then I would say your yes is a void of those sensations
right so let that be what it is let yourself go that is a whole body yes my whole body yes is a void of those no sensations and that's enough don't you don't need to make it any more than that yeah yeah that's true and it makes sense to me that you might not have the whole light up you know
some people do have this you know that they feel as a yes but some people don't and so just trust your own version of it so you'll just know oh my yes is just is without the reactive patterns I notice in my body when the no is here let's use that as a segue in the fact that I don't have the
zing I'm not sure that the fact I don't have this zing and I do have it when it's again sort of an avalanche of spectacular goodness but otherwise my yes response can be very muted I do think that I have trained myself sometimes in the name of stoicism I think often in the hope to protect myself
from disappointment to not celebrate and I do think premature celebration of huge business deals and stuff can bite you in the ass and that's a good idea to temper expectations at the same time there's a cost there's a very real cost to training yourself not to celebrate and one of the
notes that Jim as in Jim Debtmer for people who are listening sent to me included I asked him what your superpowers were and he gave me a number of them and one was play as a way to live life increased learnings deep in relationships and lead organizations Diana is the best of anyone I
have ever met at living a life of play and inviting others to play along so for those who don't know Jim Jim would not say something like this lightly so could you please this is something that I want to cultivate myself and I really am not sure of how to go about it so I would love to
explore this and you can take that anywhere you would like when you were talking earlier about not sure you know about that yes you think maybe you'd like to have more of that one thing I would say is I think yeses are very they're about igniting our creative energy and our creative energy
is very connected to our sexual energy and so for me yes feels very sexual I feel turned on and so I think there are a lot of people who put that away for good reasons along the way and so one of the things that I think is important is for people to start coming back and tuning back into letting
themselves be a sexual being letting themselves have sensations that feel igniting and and that doesn't have to mean that you want to go have sex or do it they're very different things I know a lot of you love insects without sexual feelings so they're separate but there's a I want to invite
people to feel how good you can feel in the body how do you do that I know that sounds silly but it's like how do you foster slash allow that I'm not consciously I don't have any Catholic guilt or anything that leads me to consciously throttle that I don't have a voice in my head that says that's
not okay I feel like it's more if it exists in me it's more subconscious well just in general just see if you can find one place in the body that feels pleasurable doesn't have to necessarily be named sexual but just where's the pleasure in the body and it could just be a tiny little spot or
you could feel something like for me right now there's like a tickle in my chest I feel some bubbly kind of champagne bubbles coming up through my spine feels like it's coming up through flowing out of the top of my head I feel some warmth in my feet it's pleasurable and so just
starting to put your attention on pleasure itself and then keep attending to it keep giving your attention to it and then it starts spreading around and then all of a sudden there's this really wonderful like woohoo quality that's happening in the body and then for me that's part of
then what ignites the play there's so much aliveness joy creative possibilities and then it's like okay what are we going to do with this and then how much fun could we have it's just sort of the water I swim in has it always been that way is this Diana out of the box or is it something
that either you've trained more in yourself or that you've seen people train effectively right in terms of turning the time because I'm sure you have a lot of clients I have to imagine who are doing therapy coaching medicine work etc and they're like God I just need more play I just need more
play and it's like okay well now what right well I might say let's play with the fact that you need more play like can we make that bigger oh I need more play oh god you're like yeah I tend to say let's exaggerate everything because that's one of the easiest quickest forms of play is exaggerate
where you're at so make wherever you're at bigger and so if I'd say I can't play it so hard for me to play I go okay well let's play with that make that bigger until all of a sudden now you're kind of giggling because it seems funny and then you just played so exaggeration is one of my favorite
ways so when when I am coaching people and they're in some place that they say they don't want to be and I say well then let's make it bigger wherever you're at and then it always pops them through just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show
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slash Tim Wealth Front will automate your investments for the long term and you can get started today at Wealthfront.com slash Tim Loving pressure let's talk about loving pressure that was a term that Jim said over bringing loving pressure to relationships she's a genius at bringing
the right balance of pressure kick you in parentheses kick you in the ass and love in parentheses support understanding empathy and as a result she's a black belt in practicing candor so this is something that has always struck me in our interactions this is not going to be a
perfect segue but I have to bring this up because who knows if what I wrote for the no book will ever see the light of day I hope it will maybe in a blog post or an article at some point but could you please describe the voice male message that you had some years ago do you know the one I'm talking
about yeah yeah it was something like hi you reached Diana I may or may not respond to this call and I'm gonna just listen to I feel called I will and if I don't I won't and it was it was uh you know just very much of uh I'm gonna listen in and decide to rather I'll call you back and
when I'll call you back and so it was just basically saying don't have any expectations so your candor has really jumped out as this sort of defining characteristic of Diana for me so that's sort of the end of this bullet that's in front of me but how should people think of
loving pressure because I find myself flip-flopping often between two polar extremes this is especially noticeable in my intimate relationships where either I'm like the hard-ass like Olympic coach kind of like the coach in the Disney movie miracle if anyone's seen that
in isoaki or I am from my perspective extremely permissive and overly supportive to the point of subjugating my own feelings it's not entirely dishonest but I'm kind of disavowing part of me to be really really supportive and this is especially true with my girlfriend where there are times to
I've learned I think this is important there are times for me to listen to listen for her to feel heard and then there are times for me to listen to help with problem solving and it's very good for me to clarify which she wants in advance but how do you think about loving pressure and bringing
that to relationships well again I think in order to do that well you have to be connected to your head your heart and your gut that's certainly been really clear to me that I have to be fully present to know then what's the balance of challenge and nurturing so for example I had a guy
who called me recently was wanting to know if we could work together and he was very very depressed and I was asking him questions and he was really stuck and he had a lot of critical thoughts about himself and he couldn't get motivated to do anything and you know I asked him about therapy said
yeah I've been in therapy for a year and I said okay you need to fire your therapist because you got a lot of stories in your head that you're believing and nobody's challenging you and the guy stood up like he sat up really straight and I felt him like pop out of some
haze he was in like the challenge or so woke something in him and so sorry I was make up about that guy is he was just getting so nurtured but nobody was bringing the challenge that could help him break out of this state he was in and so you know I just knew that because and I was thoughtful
of from my own presence here of what do I need to say to this guy that he can hear I care about him but I also say cut it out because we're how you're organizing yourself here isn't going to take you to this new place you want to go and he was really grateful and he said thank you I really hear
you that I needed question these belief I'm holding so that's my practice over and over again is being able to listen to my body I was with another conversation of the day and people were talking about their opinions about the world and I just said hey I noticed I'm contracting my body's
contracting as I hear you guys talking and that's all I had to say it was just I'm just going to report what's happening over here and it was a form of challenge to them and they went wow you know you're right we're really in some fear based thinking here so my body helps just sometimes I
just report I notice I'm bored or I notice I'm withdrawing or I notice I'm getting confused or I notice I'm contracting those are ways I might just express a little pressure by just revealing what's here and not making it mean anything but just saying here's what's happening maybe this is
about something I don't know about yet but let me just tell you what's happening I don't think we do that enough with each other so let me ask a question about that example so there are some folks talking about whatever they were talking about and some kind of fear based or what they recognized
as fear based thinking in conversation and you say I'm noticing that I'm feeling contracted I just want to let you guys know were these people and they respond they responded constructively these are people I know well and we know we play a similar game in which you have agreed to yes
this type of interaction yes they would not I would not do this with just anybody okay okay so what would you do if if you're in a mixed group or with people who have not agreed or made the commitments and we could talk more about the 15 commitments and commitments in general but is
there a way that you can give voice to that with people who perhaps don't have the same playbook in front of them sure I might say something like so what I hear is you believe you're right that xyz is occurring and that could be true and I'm just wondering if you're open to another
possibility that maybe it's not as true as you think so I might just gently bring a little challenger of asking them to consider that there might be another option that's another form of how we challenge each other is questioning the stories we tell because we're all just telling stories
all the time or I might say oh I had considered that perspective I've been holding this perspective and I might share my perspective and it just depends on how well or not well I know the crowd that would help me be more thoughtful and how I might respond when you're working with a client
and I'm coming back to the initial quote that I read from Dustin so she has a gift as a coach she meaning you as a gift for guiding me through introspection on the stories I create about events and people in a structured way that inevitably leads to perspective shifts could you
walk us through how you might do that with someone for instance this guy was depressed and he says you know what you're right my therapist sucks I'm being handled with kid loves but that's making me remain a kid so I could use like a occasional slap in the face from someone who's
very supportive and challenging and you say okay great yeah that point then what do you do with those stories in this person I'm a huge fan of Byron Katie and I really love her work and I do the work with myself and I do the work with my clients and I say okay is it true
is it true this thing you believe can you absolutely know it's true and you know I'm rising up now to know I can't absolutely know anything and then what's it like when you do really believe you're right and I help people find there's always some suffering and then what would it be
like if you just couldn't believe it and people find oh that's nice it feels good and then okay great could we just go look at the opposite you can keep your righteous stories but can we also ask you to hold the opposites as at least is true so that the mind can get to neutral and then
something else gets to happen and you're doing that with turn around various types all the time I'm constantly asking clients to turn around let's pick a hypothetical or real example just if people can get a flavor of this so Byron Katie the work I also have found really really helpful
in a number of cases and she's an unusual and powerful woman to put it mildly so so there are times when people will interact and I remember meeting her for the first time and I was like I don't know if I can do what she does but when you actually work with the work sheets
and people can find this online a lot of resources are available for free online from Byron Katie could you walk through say a belief which I think she defines as a thought we take to be true or something along those lines an example of a belief and then what how you would do turn
around on that belief and walk somebody through that well let's see if we can find something real or if you're willing to like say if you can find something that's irritated you lately something where it's kind of like you know maybe somebody did something that bugged you or
you're upset about some policy out in the world or any place where you notice you get a little triggered it's more of a like a paradox of choice than anything else for me let me see if not I can find when I always have judgment so I can find something over here
well I'll tell you this is I my relationship will actually use one that relates to the client you mentioned so I have had extended depressive episodes the majority of my life and so I have a lot of fear around slipping into depressive episodes and have viewed that whether it's now whether it's a week from now whether it's a year whether it's five years from now as inevitable right and scary and dangerous so let's use that somehow okay and it sounds like the judgment might be something
like I shouldn't slip into depression yes depressive episodes is that right yeah or exactly I shouldn't it's dangerous etc okay so which one is it is I shouldn't or is it's dangerous because sounds like that one kind of lit up for you it's dangerous if I go into a depressive yeah I think yeah that's
yeah is that it that is yeah okay it's dangerous if you go into a depressive episode is that true I always struggle with the first two questions the other ones I have an easier time with is it true I think it's true yeah I mean most of the time when I have my judgments I do think they're true
in the beginning but then I go okay Tim can you really truly I mean absolutely know it's true like you put your life on the line that if you have a depressive that it's dangerous if you go into a depressive episode well you know it's kind of tragically comic that you would use that phrasing so
here's what I can say I can say for sure that it has been dangerous because I almost killed myself in college okay does that automatically mean that I will be at the precipice in that same way in the future no I can't say that with a hundred percent certainty yes you can't say that with a
hundred percent certainty so we're just trying to get to I can't know for sure I mean I didn't kill myself in the end where you're here right and we don't know if you would want to kill yourself in in the future so we're just going I can't absolutely know for sure it's true so the first question
is is it true second question is can I absolutely know for sure that it's true you're saying no third question is what's it like when you do believe that thought so when you sit here and go whoa it's going to be dangerous if I have a depressive episode what's it like for you when you believe
that to be true it's terrifying it's awful yeah and anytime I feel even a twinkling of a possibility that I might be slipping into a melancholy state I went to a jazz performance recently and they're playing very minor key music and I felt myself getting very uncomfortable it actually that was the
example I used in my own mind when we were I was the second example that came to my mind when I was thinking of the whole body know recently even though there were aspects of the performance I really enjoyed but as soon as I started feeling myself slip into a sad what I would call depressive state
there was a level of panic sure so that's who I am yeah I believe that to be true I'm the hyper vigilant and panic prone yeah make sense I mean I feel it right now if I believe the story that if I get into a depressive state it's gonna be dangerous I feel panicky I can feel that
hyper vigilance I can feel like oh like really anxious yeah yeah yeah sure so that's your experience so let's just imagine that I have this superpower and your brain is a computer and that thought it's dangerous to go into a depressive state is actually like a computer program and I have the
ability to delete that program out of the computer of your brain it's gone so right now I just did it it's gone so we're just gonna pretend for a couple of minutes here and if you just couldn't believe that anymore what's it like oh I think I would have almost certainly would have much more
calm much more presence right I wouldn't be future tripping and stuck in anxiety I would be much more joyful I would have more space for other people because I wouldn't be stuck on the me me me show yeah yeah and I like to even get it get yourself even more present like sit here and sometimes I even encourage you to close their eyes but let yourself drop in right here in this conversation and you're now a man sitting here who can't find that thought it's a little more meditative this way
using your breath to keep opening what's it like to be here to be you to be in this moment without the thought no thought that's replaced it you're just here without that one relaxed optimistic energized yeah yeah and my experience is the more I drop in the more I get to experience more
states of presence especially like when you go into that relax you could even drop in even a little more and it keeps opening up and these states can keep opening to more and more states of well-being could I do a quick sidebar yeah a question which is so I think a lot of people listening
and even me right now I'm starting to get a little secondary anxiety by telling myself the story well wait a second if it is actually dangerous I don't want to just go into a place of denial where I take off my seatbelt while I'm driving at 80 miles an hour or a cycle that sounds like a bad idea
right so good good I don't want you to stop thinking so I suppose I just wanted to get your reiteration that this is the objective is not to invalidate the belief the objective is to do an exercise embracing other alternatives and the objective is to understand that at the moment at
least a depressive state isn't what's creating the anxiety for you it's the belief that it's going to be dangerous that creates the anxiety right that's what we're going after here is we're going after the recognition that your depressive state we actually don't know how you will or
will not be but right now the danger you're creating is in your own head by believing you're right about your story and so we're helping you question that so that you can now be aware and present for the possibility that you might be going into a depressive state in the future and how can you do your best to mitigate that what right it if you do have it happen so that you're not at the
effect of it. Thank you all right so what's the next step? So then the next step is we don't want you to get rid of it could be dangerous because I don't know maybe it could but we want to help you come back to recognizing that the opposite is at least is true that it doesn't have to be dangerous
so we're going to have you go it's not dangerous going into a depressive state is at least is true can you give me a real example one that not just your head but your heart and your body like there's something that your whole system goes ah okay I can see how it's true that it doesn't have to be dangerous if I go into a depressive state can you give me real evidence of how that could be at least
is true. So doing I'm doing two things here I'm doing the exercise with you and I'm also sort of providing an overlay for people listening nice and please correct me if I'm getting in this room but what we're doing is we're taking the belief as a statement and we're starting to play with
that sentence and the words and that sentence and how it's constructed right. Yeah we're specifically going after the judgment so that your mind judges it's going to be dangerous if I go into a depressive state it's going to be dangerous I'm right about how dangerous it's going to be so we just want to go can we just look at how the opposite is true is it's not going to be dangerous if you go into a depressive
state. So the evidence so now we're coming up with evidence for how is that statement it won't be dangerous at least as true. So I'll start with the present tense that it isn't dangerous because it won't be dangerous as harder for me but I will say the fact of the matter is I'm here and if I had dozens of depressive episodes. Yeah and I'm still here so if the danger is suicide at least
to this point it's abundantly clear that that has not happened so. Yeah yeah I want you to really get that not just in your head but I want you to get that in your heart and your body because I feel you get it intellectually. Yeah but I really want you to drop down and go surveys as I've been in multiple depressive states and I'm here it hasn't been dangerous in that I haven't
killed myself if that's what you're calling danger. Yeah that's that would do good. Yeah and so we want you to get that down especially in the body like your breath go oh god I'm really looking to feel that yeah okay many times depressive states here I am okay not dangerous. Give me another example of how it's true it's not dangerous if I go into a depressive state. I'm having trouble honestly I'm wondering if you can help me brainstorm here yeah. Yeah so
I imagine people come around you people help you. Yeah yeah I need to get better at actually reaching out but yes when I do have supportive people around me and I'm very lucky to have people who love me who would respond at the drop of a dime. Yeah so I want you to feel that feel how oh my goodness I am surrounded by so many people and experts who could help me and have in the past like it was hard to be dangerous if there's all these other folks around me who got my back. Yeah yeah I believe
that for sure. And so I can see it again in your head like intellectually part of what I want is for you to come back down in the body and really feel that it's a somatic experience that I'm wanting you to get. How do you I know this this is like the the remedial class with me but
how do you help people to do that because it's challenging for me. Just imagine one of the last times that you were in one see all the people who came around you really there were people there and I want you to just let your body feel that like feel oh yeah there were people who came and
asked questions and gave guidance and offered support and listened and let your body go let your breath open up and feel from the body the direct experience of support of non-dangerous that you did have in the past that wasn't just intellectual it was a direct experience of the body. Yeah it's like oh my goodness there were so much support so much interconnectedness. Breathe with that feel that all the way down through the toes.
Okay I got it. Yeah nice. Yeah thank you. Yeah the whole different ball game and you can put the body. Yeah the intellectual side is just like a glancing blow I mean it's not it doesn't fully land. Well yeah and you're actually not present here to have the experience of non-dangerous because if you're not allowing yourself to come down into the body you're not fully here to access the intelligence that's giving you a direct experience of not dangerous.
Right. So you okay great and then we go okay so not dangerous as at least is true we had two examples so far so we're going to go for one more and now you might even get more clarity of how it's not dangerous if you're listening to your head and your heart and your body how is it at least is true that going into a depressive state does not have to be dangerous. Doesn't have to be I mean sometimes the episodes are very short I don't know if that's I mean that's maybe not as over arching
online item as the last two that we did. Okay let's say it's long because since long is the one that scares you so let's say it's a long one how is the long one not dangerous. I mean this is something I've struggled with my whole life so I'm not I could use an aloeop with maybe another.
Okay I'm just trying to not myself because I got to go in there I'm going to try on being depressed and go in there with you so I can feel I'm not hurting myself I can feel I'm surrounded by support other way it's not dangerous could be what I'm noticing is like there's an awareness in you that
knows you're depressed right yeah yeah so there's a witness who's there watching there's a part that's never in danger who's watching the whole thing that parts that parts not experiencing danger yeah the witness the witness is there yeah so you could go oh when I'm in the depressive state and I'm
in my witness it's not dangerous for that one yeah let me let me sit with that for a second yeah yeah it's challenging for me I'm part way there it's like it's partially landing since it's also the witness who panics it's well I actually don't think I don't think if you're the witness can't panic
if you're in witness if you're truly in witness the one who's just a watcher without a judgment okay the one who just says like I have a witness it's like oh check you out Diana you're scaring yourself about behind the Tim Ferriss show you know that was I I literally said that
to myself this morning oh check you out now my witness is just watching thinking I'm adorable that I'm scared and doesn't have an opinion about it just watches oh there you are hmm so under if you have a relationship with that part of yourself that just can watch and observe and
welcome whatever's happening without judgment there are times when I do that's that is a relationship that I want to continue and need to continue to cultivate yeah great but I think that's a good third sort of third leg of the stool on the yeah so there we go okay we want you to
keep it's dangerous sure it's dangerous to get in depressive states that can be true but it's also at least as true that it's not dangerous and we can see examples of how that's at least as true so what we're trying to get the mind to do is to see okay we'll give you both you could be both can be
true and therefore they're both not true so then what then we get to be with what's underneath all the judgment there's just what do you notice if you get to say they're both true they're both not true then what do you notice when you imagine that you might go into depressive state at some
point well if I'm able to hold both of those equally then the likelihood of panic and anxiety about possible panic it's like panic about panic right right is going to be less if I can hold those two things yeah I call it walking the line it's like a walk a line right down the center
where I'm holding both is equally true and I value both sides like sure because I think I don't want to be stupid and I want to dismiss something and be naive but I want to be honoring that hey I'm not right meaning righteous about this story I have over here because if I am I'm going to
cause myself some kind of reactivity so now I just sit with okay depressive episode may happen and then ideally if I can walk that line then all I'm going to do is learn I'm going to be able to stay present to what's happening and learn along the way what needs to happen yeah thank you
and then I get to start to welcome I may you know my experiences I have a lot more trust if I just am willing to welcome whatever is going to happen yeah for sure yeah with the preference I have a preference not to go to depressive state for sure but if a depressive state is what happens okay
we'll learn yeah there's a I don't want to take us too far off track but a friend of mine actually just showed me a book which has been recommended a number of times I have not read it so I can't vouch for it but called feeding your demons but I at least like the title and it's on this this exact
subject yeah because you feed the demon every time you believe you're right that it's going to be dangerous you feed the demon and so then you're just going to keep amping up the anxiety and then of course you have that much anxiety over time you're going to burn out you're going to get depressed
because the body is going to get intelligent and go I can't do I can't run this anxiety all the time let's get depressed and just chill out for a while yeah to connect this also for people with the process so thank you Diana for taking me through that and also these turnarounds these
rephrasing with the objective of or at least the step of gathering evidence for each of these turnarounds could be applied and please correct me if we're wrong if we took let's just say a belief that's causing you pain is who knows my sister is selfish right yeah so it could be my sister
is selfish maybe there's something with your parents and sisters not pulling the weight and you're pissed off and so your belief is my sister's selfish and I might change it to my sister shouldn't be selfish oh yeah that's great that's great right so my sister shouldn't be selfish
and then you could have you know my sister should be selfish you could have I should be selfish I should be selfish I should be selfish exactly and at the very least I mean in my experience when I am triggered and I'm just so dysregulated that the idea of problem solving or coming up with good
strategies is just a joke because I'm so emotionally dysregulated that doing this type of exercise at the very least just turns down the volume on the system reactivity and then I can just breathe so I found it very helpful as a pattern interrupt yes and to your point this isn't a good
tool to use if you are really dysregulated in the moment I would recommend first using breath and movement to relax the nervous system to get yourself into more calm first because if you just try to use this as your first thing you might likely use it as a weapon and just intellectualize
it all that'll just give you some temporary relief over and over again so I do recommend first getting yourself use some movement use some breath calm the nervous system we say you know handle your blood and brain chemistry first and then this is a good tool yeah for me it's just go
lift some heavy stuff go to the gym yeah well I also you know if I were working with you I'd have you say I shouldn't have a depressive state I should have a depressive state and I'd really go argue for why you should and do that so that you get it in your body not just into your head
but I should have a depressive state again because that's the other thing I hear is there's a arguing with it would be bad or I shouldn't have it or I'm trying to avoid it instead of well if it happens it happens yeah and I and it shouldn't happen instead of it shouldn't is at least
is true but that would be a good one to go play with because I think that would also help you be more open to life happening the way it does through you for sure for sure thank you I would like to if you're open to it shift a little bit to relationships and I want to ask you specifically about your
partnership with Matt so here's one of your superpowers as listed from mr. Jim creating and sustaining a wonderful intimate partnership with Matt her husband and lover since they were teenagers have her talk about the risks she and they were willing to take to keep the relationship
alive and vital growing in intimate if you are gay to talk about that I would be very interested yeah to hear more well it's a challenge it's both a great gift to be with a partner since you were young get to grow up together there's a lot of shared memories and shared friends
and there's a sweetness that it started out with you get to keep and there's also a great challenge of the fact that we are different people who evolve and change and so several times at least three key times in our relationship we've been willing to let it all go and we've basically killed it off
just said the relationship as it was is done now let's just check and see what is the relationship that wants to happen moving forward maybe it's just friends co-parents maybe it's lovers staying married what is it and so we have a lot of courage both of us to be willing to let go
of what's not working and trust that the right form of the relationship will reveal itself and it just so happens that it continues to be us married and I think we play around often sometimes we'll get up in the morning I'll say something like hey you want to be married today and he'll say oh
well what would that mean what kind of a husband do I need to be and we'll get going play around with well you know how about this and this and then we choose and that is for me we are always choosing over and over again and we always are willing to kind of to the point of using the work with
Byron Katie of I'm willing to open to the possibility that not being married is just as okay as being married and what that has created is an incredibly vital creative ever evolving passionate marriage in which we're freed up to keep exploring new ways of being together and I am really proud of
my relationship I think it's one of the greatest things I've ever done is the marriage that I have we get a lot of feedback that it's an inspiring marriage to a lot of people who look to it and I do think it comes with the courage to say no you mentioned if at least I think you said three times
that you've had this type of conversation I would like to zoom in on the first conversation were you both already prepared and trained to initiate that type of conversation did one side initiate the hey let's decide if we want to remain as is or if we want to take one of these other
forms I'm just wondering for people who are listening who have never had one of these conversations maybe they've been at the breaking point but they've never had this conversation I initiated it it wasn't Matt's idea I said hey I'm it's isn't working for me the way we're in relationship
and there's a different kind of a man I want to be with than how you are and I want another possibility and so I didn't know how to do all this I was just tuddling around trying to figure this out and yeah I said I don't want to do it this way anymore and so I thought that might mean
that we needed to be separated and that we needed to end the marriage and I was willing to we actually got some support from counselors about telling our kids that we were going to divorce because that's the only direction it seemed like we were going to go and then I had this great
advice from a friend who said okay Diana I love you both if you think divorces what needs to happen that's great but I hear you complaining that there's a certain man you want him to be that he's not and she said who is the woman you would need to be to call for or that man
and and my stomach dropped and I thought yeah I don't want to I don't know about that what and uh I realized oh I would need to be a different woman so we said let's kill off this old marriage and let's see if we can create a new one and I'm going to keep asking myself who do I need to be
to call forward the man I want to be with and about six months later I was with the man I wanted to be with and I remember saying to him you really changed and he said no you really changed and the truth is we both really changed but I was really grateful for that first conversation of being
willing to let it go and then getting the feedback of hey if you're the creator of who's showing up over there who do you need to be and for many months I felt like I was going to throw up 24 seven learning to be a much more vulnerable needy woman who called forward the man who could protect
and lead in a way that I hadn't been willing to be in the past. How did you thank you for sharing all this by the way and very courageous and vulnerable and how did you figure out who you needed to be who that woman was to call forth the version of your husband or the man who you wanted to be with did you have help was it obvious once you sat with it in terms of the changes that needed to be made on on your side or the things you needed to cultivate or drop how did you arrive at the answers.
At first I didn't know I just knew I was really scared when I asked the question I believe that fear is when we're present is an intelligence that says something needs to get learned something needs to get learned so when I had that fear I thought oh wow something needs to get learned there's I
don't know something here and so that was my first clue that her question was powerful is the fear that arose in me and then I just kept asking the fear what needs to be learned I just kept being really broad in that curiosity I got into a state of wonder I wonder who I would need to be
to call forward the man I most want to be with I just kept asking that I wonder and I let it be okay that I didn't have to know because I didn't know I've been you know with them for a long time and I didn't know so I had to be willing to listen and learn from something greater than my own
experience so far and so it was in that level of curiosity that I just found my way and it was baby steps you know a little bit here a little bit there and we've had several versions of that often or not often but the three versions were all some version of me something needs to get
learned for the next evolution here of this relationship do you have recommended resources or practices that couples can seek out or embrace so that they are better prepared if they get to these decision points or just overall with respect to nurturing sort of a healthy co-created
relationship are there any any books any particular practices that you would highlight for folks Matt and I studied with Gay and Katie Hendrix for years at the Hendrix Institute they did a lot of relationship work they still do a bit of it but I learned so many tools there on how to get
off the drama triangle I learned about personas and about how I get caught in these personas that didn't unconsciously require the persona of my partner to show up in a certain way that then I complain about and I learned about how to unwind those or shift them when I wanted to I learned
about the importance of feeling my feelings I learned about really questioning my stories I learned about polarity and how important it is to honor polarity that shows up in couples and making sure that I honored both sides of the polarity equally for example a lot of couples argue about money
and almost always there's one that we call the gas and one who's the break and somebody who's more free flowing with money and somebody who's more controlling about money and that's a can we honor these polarities and can we see the value in both of them because usually I was the one who
wanted to spend the money and and my husband and one of his it hold on to the money and we would get into a battle about you know you're keeping me from having joy in my life because you're so stingy about money and he'd say you're gonna make us all broke because you're just so unconscious
about spending it and so honoring that those two sides of the player they are actually allies that are here to create just the right balance to take care of ourselves and have fun and so those are all different skill sets are so many different tools and I would say that our book the
15 commitments of conscious leadership we wrote it for leaders but really it could be a perfect guidebook for couples if you just apply couples examples in there because that's what really created the beautiful relationship that I have are those commitments and those all have tools and skills
that are associated with them could you give us a few examples of some of these commitments and of course I I would recommend people read the book I think it's very valuable but could you give us a handful of examples of what these commitments are we got a lot of these from Gain Katie Hendrix they
were the ones they wrote the first two commitments word for word and the first two commitments the first one is all around I commit to take radical responsibility for the results in my life and that's a cornerstone commitment and you know that looks like some guy who I was coaching the other day called me up and said my CEO is not giving me the feedback I need to grow as a leader and so I had him teach me
the class how do you create the CEO not giving you the feedback you want he's like what I'm not creating that I'm not the effect of it he's not giving it to me I said teach me the class so he actually thought for a moment and said well value the CEO's time more than your time don't
reschedule when the CEO breaks your one-on-one meetings don't ask directly for the feedback you want and he started to giggle and realized oh I'm the creator of not getting the feedback I want that's radical responsibility so people often we say the thing you're complaining about is often the thing
you're committed to creating it if you can own that that's radical and then the second commitment is all around letting go of one team to be right and what we mean by that is the defending yourself righteously that keeps you from learning and growing those are the two cornerstone commitments one and two and I think we even say in the book like you could stop right here and just practice these for the rest of your life but then there's the commitment to really feel feelings and specifically
what I noticed and we talked about this you and I a little bit when you were thinking about writing this notebook was how much we're trying to control each other feeling feelings so like I don't want to say no because I don't want you to have a feeling over there and I really think I'm right you shouldn't have them and I don't want you to have a feeling because then maybe I'll have a feeling and I see how much of our drama in the workplace and at home is coming from suppressing
feelings in ourselves and each other. Canders a commitment to be able to say what's going on rather than conceal it which then causes me to have to start to withdraw and ending gossip is another commitment really being impeccable around agreements so that I do what I say I'm going to do
another commitment those first six that's what we focus a lot in the business world when we come in and work with teams we have them work on those six commitments to help secure the identity and relax drama and then once that's done then we have things like let's look at appreciation
the commitment to appreciate the commitment to play and rest the commitment to live in our zones of genius and then the commitments get even deeper into being the source of approval control and security rather than trying to source it outside of yourself which is probably one of the most
difficult commitments of all and also the commitment of experiencing that you already have enough which most people also struggle with especially at least in the business world I really ever come across anybody who has enough time and then they go on from there to being able to create a win
for all solution which is one of my great joys to work with a team where there's a lot of different needs and it seems like they can't come up with a solution where they all win and helping them do that and finally be the resolution to that which you see missing in the world so if they're not
listening be a better listener if they're not taking care of things take care of things do you still use or recommend people use mind jogger I read that at least for a period of time you used an app I believe it was mind jogger they would ask you multiple times a day Diana in this now moment
are you above the line or below the line and you do all right I still use it I use it every day and I ask that basic question where are you are you above the line meaning are you in a state of trust or are you below the line in a state of threat so I ask that I have it seven times randomly
per day it pops on my screen and I pause and look and check for me it's like lifting weights every day so that's one and then I use other questions that I rotate around like when I'm really liking right now is is this exquisite Diana is this moment exquisite and then it gives me a pause to think
about how could this be more exquisite what does that mean to you exquisite is whole body yes to me you know is this a whole body yes is this is this yes I'm in my zone I feel fully alive I'm doing what I most want to be doing I'm on purpose what other prompts do you have or do any others come to
mine oh yeah I have a question for each of the commitments so I rotate them around like what are you feeling right now so if I need to keep checking with my feeling states another one would be what do you appreciate about somebody around you right now and then I'll use that as an opportunity
to speak that out loud because I'm really a big fan of lots and lots of appreciation another one do I have enough time right now I use that one are you experiencing enough time right now is a way to pause and go oh good that's good I ask myself that question because I can feel I'm in a
scarcity of time and let me stop and pause and get back into the present moment where there's always enough if you could email those questions slash prompts that you have for each commitment I would love to I just downloaded a mind jogger this morning I would love to start playing with those
if you're open to it oh yeah absolutely yeah maybe we could put them in the show notes as well and that way people can find them for themselves I have to say you know I really think you are a master of prompts and questions and we don't have to go through it at length I was actually going
to read every single bullet I'm not going to do that because it'll take a bit of time but you have a piece on LinkedIn it's an article called how to assess self-awareness in a hiring interview now people might hear that and say why the hell are you bringing that up it sounds so niche it sounds so
so specific it's only going to apply to 3% of your listenership but it's a great example of questions and prompts for uncommon insight I was very impressed with the questions I'll give just a few examples describe a time when you were tempted to blame someone else for something but instead
resolved it by owning part of the issue right what percentage of agreements do currently keep with the people you live and work with what causes you to break agreements the most how do you approach broken agreements I mean these are outstanding questions not just by the way for hiring
people but I found these questions and prompts to be outstanding so I will also link to those in the show notes and people will be able to find that article well my clients were asking me hey how do we interview if we want people who want to come in be in a part of a culture that doesn't have
as much drama what should we be asking that would make sure that we knew they were good fit for the culture we're creating here and so that was what caused me to put those questions together and I use them myself you know we were just we just did a couple of big hires at the Conscious Leadership Group and we almost exclusively focused on self-awareness and people's ability to have candor take responsibility keep their agreements as the one of primary things we were looking at
because you know they were already very successful candidates so we knew they were they'd had a great pedigree already so we wanted to make sure they were a good culture fit because we're really committed to know or very little drama in our workplace Diana we could go for hours and hours and hours
might just have to do around too sometime I'd love to use some curious quite frankly to know what books outside of the 15 commitments of Conscious Leadership have you gifted the most to other people or gifted a lot doesn't have to be the most but what books have you gifted a fair amount to people
the big leap by gay handrix is probably the book I've gifted the most and the one I've recommended the most of any other book and also Conscious Loving for couples because you asked that question earlier Conscious Loving I think is a fantastic book for couples who are wanting to get more
connected is another one I've gifted a lot those are the two that come top of mind the two primaries for people who just want to preview what is the big leap about or what is it for the big leap is all about learning to live in your zone of genius which I think is just the most fun thing and
to take a look at what are the things that keep us from living in our zone of genius and so I tell every leader I coach to get it and a hundred percent of them have said it was a valuable read and gays just come up with a follow-up book on zone of genius it just came out last month
that I imagine will be another book I'll be recommending and gifting because I find that inside of all of us is some creativity that when we are in that place time and space go away it's so fun and makes life so worth living and I really am excited about supporting people and
living as much as possible in that zone of genius well I think you do a damn fine job of it it's been fun to get to know you it's been fun to also get to know you in this chat a bit more and doing homework it's always fun to do research on friends which would otherwise be super creepy
and like Google stocking but I have a pretext and excuse which is doing interviews and people can find the conscious leadership group at conscious.is and certainly all the social and so on can be found from that jumping off point you also have a lot of PDFs and resources for people on the website so I encourage people to check out the website we'll link to that we'll link to prompts we'll link to
everything that we discussed in the show notes at Tim.blog slash podcast. Diana is there anything else that you would like to say or ask any request of the audience anything at all that you'd like to add before we come to a close. I feel pretty heartbroken these days about the drama that is happening amongst us and I'm actually grateful for the heartbreak because it's helping me connect more with with love and one of the things I'm doing is facing I'm really facing the cost of the drama that
we're having and so I think one of the things I most hope people will do is have the courage to face the cost of the drama that we are creating in our workplaces that has people so overwhelmed at work the cost politically, environmentally and that they're willing to face it let their
hearts break wide open and then from that place get curious and excited about what else could we create together what else is possible because that really excites me and I think I don't want to argue with the way the world is it's just fine the way it is and I have a preference for a lot more play and creativity and togetherness and curiosity that I find when we drop the drama.
That is an excellent place to close and what a enjoyable and I think very helpful for me conversations so thank you very much Diana for for making the time and being so present thank you.
My great pleasure I'm so grateful for all the ways you go out into the world and bring forward things that help people live more connected and valuable lives and it is one of the things that I believe your depression has been a great gift is I don't know that you would have done this if you hadn't had the depressions that you had and needed to find the tools that you needed so I'm grateful for your depression and for your own unique journey that has now enhanced so many of ours
so so thank you so much. Thank you so much Diana really appreciate it thank you and if everybody listening stay strong get curious check out the show notes it's Tim Dupelog for such a podcast and until next time thank you for tuning in. Hey guys this is Tim again just one more thing before you take off and that is five bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend. Between one and a half and two million people
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you'll get the very next one thanks for listening this episode is brought to you by momentous momentous offers high quality supplements and products across a broad spectrum of categories including sports performance sleep cognitive health hormone support and more I've been testing
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