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So 34 days with no credit card required at you need a budget dot com slash Tim. I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. I must have a netty organism living this show where metal and the scale. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show.
My guest today needs no introduction but I will provide one regardless Rick Rubin you can find them on Twitter at Rick Rubin is a nine time Grammy winning producer one of time magazine 100 most influential people in the world. And the most successful producer in any genre according to Rolling Stone is collaborating with artists ranging from Tom Petty to Adele Johnny Cash to the red hot chili peppers BC boys to slayer Kanye West of the strokes.
And system of doubt to Jay Z that is just the tip of the iceberg believe it or not you can find my 2015 interview 7 plus years ago was Rick on the back of the in that crazy Tim dot blog slash Rick Rubin is new book is the creative act subtitle away of being we're going to dig into that Rick 7 plus years ago.
I can't believe it was at the first year of the podcast how many years the podcast that would have been the second year of the podcast and we reported it in your son which was a condition yours yes we did a lot of heat we did a lot of cold. The creative act why make this book and I've had some close up seats to watch the seeds germinating for quite a while now I feel like we may have talked about this even back in the song I don't know if we talked about it on the podcast but.
We did the same day yeah talking about this is a book I want to write and I remember you amongst others you are not the only one you were one of everyone else who said that sounds like a bad idea. The general consensus was that sounds like a lot of work and it's not the book that anybody necessarily wants from you why don't you just do the one that's easy hold up hold up.
Let me let me defend myself here for one second I definitely said the first part I think what I probably said was Rick you have a lot going on if you put this book out in the world you're gonna have to live with it forever so are you sure you are willing to put. Or can find the time in the space to create this book I wouldn't have said I don't think this is the book you want to read I would have just said man you have a lot of option.
Are you sure this is the path that you want to take I can see saying that but here we are. Well I'll say this is the book that was interesting to me to write and there were definitely simpler books to write but I wasn't interested so.
And that was a general consensus with everyone I talk to including publishers at that time you just said well you know why don't you do a biography why don't you do the stories of your life it's like if that was the book I wouldn't do the book right totally this is the only book that was interesting to me. To work on what the purpose of it is is over the course of a year.
I might get to work with a handful of artists probably the most albums I've ever produced in the year would be eight which is a lot for a record producer. But in the world of artists a tiny fraction so even though I've been doing it for a long time even though I get to work with a lot for someone who does my job I'm still talking to a very few people and.
It seems like what goes on in the studio is helpful for the artists and the idea that maybe there's some way that this information can be shared and it's difficult because I don't know what it is you know that was maybe part of when I describe you I remember you know I don't know it's like I don't know what's in the book I don't even know where to start publishers love that pitch.
No I remember you saying that though and I was like okay that's interesting I mean you have the ability at this point in your life and at that point in your life to actually play with that emergence though and I guess you've done that a lot in your life not limited just to this book project. That's the way I like to work like I go in with with kind of a blind belief that something good will happen and until it's proven impossible I will continue banging my head against the wall.
So I want to talk about bang the head against the wall I want to talk about creative process how you work with artists how you work with yourself also in the case of this book I must say something before I forget to mention it which is I was reading the book I didn't read all of it so I didn't want to.
I was reading the book and I thought you know this reminds me of something something that I have and something now that I think about it the Rick Ruben has mentioned before this is not the exact book you've mentioned but the touted shang about absolutely that bears a resemblance just in terms of the flow and the bite size nature and the lyrical pros if I can put it that way the way that you can encapsulated your thinking and the writing.
Am I totally off basers this is is that an echo that was always one of the wishes was to have a doll like experience the material in the book isn't very much like the Dow and there's a lot more content in this book than is in the Dow. Yeah the Dow is 81 short pieces this is 400 and some odd pages that was one of the threads another one was the artist way even though I don't think the books like the artist way but what's special about the artist's way.
The artist's way is that it's not Julie Cameron's story in any way it's a book with things that might be helpful and I wanted it to be like that I didn't want it to be about any of my experiences any of my projects any of the people I've worked with I wanted it to be about the mindset that allows the creation to happen.
And because it comes to me intuitively and I don't know how it works it took since seven years ago to get to this point of understanding it and even now I don't know that I could clearly explain it to you because the nature of the stuff that we're talking about is fleeting it's like if you read the Dow every year you'll get something completely different out of it it's like that it's not vague it's pretty specific.
But it is open to interpretation in the best way where it's inviting you the reader to see your picture I'm not telling you what to think I'm setting up a world that you can participate in yourself. What strikes me that you are in a of course metaphorical sense explaining how one can calibrate their instrumentation you're not telling them what to read or what to sense but you're saying this is how you might increase the spectrum of frequencies or inputs that you are able to register.
And then we choose to do it that is up to you but let's talk about sensitivity let's talk about awareness and I was struck by a number of examples that there were examples in the book of opening other books and flipping to say a random page and finding a line and using that line as a catalyst at some time and if you don't mind me hopping around a little bit I wanted to go back to our first conversation to discuss how the very small can lead to the world.
So this is an anecdote that you shared after I asked you how you help musicians break through barriers the same way that layered Hamilton help you break through certain physical and psychological barriers often interrelated and what you mentioned then was that in some cases you give artists homework very small doable tasks and you told the story of working with the musician with a very good career at one point was trying to get back into your life.
And you had all these unfinished songs and I think the homework assignment was come back tomorrow with one word that you like and then you were able to string those together and help him to build a certain momentum that then led to of course larger finished pieces.
So is that yourself with this book at all and or is there another example you could give of breaking something down into very small pieces that then produce their own momentum in the case of the book the way that I was able to get to the information in it was through doing hundreds of hours of interviews either about specific projects or on the day of a studio session I would come home from the session and I would make notes on OK.
This happened today I would take whatever happened in the specific of whatever happened in the studio that day where something good happened where no one knew what to do and the next thing you know we're all talking about it and then something happens and we like solve the problem altogether everyone wherever the idea came from was solved.
And then I would look at that and see is there a principle at work in that solution bigger than this problem where it's applicable to other problems it's the same you could imagine in any work that you've done if you solve one kind of a problem there could come up something similar or something that rhymes with it you know years later you like oh maybe we could try it like this work once before you know yeah so it's like
increasing the toolbox of potential methods all based on ones that have worked in the past for one reason or another and some of them are pretty esoteric.
So some are esoteric not all of them are esoteric so I was I was texting with someone who read your book and what he said was one of your Washington say you are one of his favorite parts in the book was your take on collaborations advice for people working together whether as business partners or artists when they disagree strongly on something so would you mind introducing maybe your philosophy or
tactical toolkit for helping to navigate that because in your career you mean you've dealt with many strong personalities it's not said in a pejorative way many big many unique personalities have you think about interpersonal conflict resolution in most collaborative projects most of the bands I've worked with the way that I've noticed it working is that there'll be many ideas
and they'll be like a battle of wills to see which idea wins it's not necessarily based in which ideas best it's more of a ego conflict battle and then someone who's either willing to fight more or is more insensitive is able to push their way
through and that becomes the direction and from my experience those are not how the best decisions are made that's how a decision can get made but not the best decision and really what we want always is out of all the possible decisions we want the best one to end up in the peace
so we start with an agreement that we try not to even know whose ideas are which to take the personal out of it and to have it be let's say there's a band with three different songwriters in it and then they might send me demos and in the past they would say okay these three or bills and these four
or Sam's and these are Sally's and then when I'm listening to them I'm listening okay I have three of Sam's four of Sally's but I'm not focused on what's the best of everything there because I'm thinking about the individuals
so I always ask for any information shared with me to not be labeled and not explained at all and then I'm only reacting based on the actual material not based on what I think same goes when we're hiring a mix engineer for something I might have as many as five different mix engineers mix the same song and then I listen to them without knowing who did what because if one of them is a superstar mixer who everybody wants and one of them is a mix of all the different things
everybody wants and one of them is our assistant engineer who works in the studio we might think oh the guy you know the superstar guy probably did the best job and it clouds the decision making not intentionally even unintentionally knowing the information is not helpful so we do as much blind testing as possible
and the same is true is when we're working together we all know because we talk about it that what's best is at the best idea wins and that there's no personal benefit and if your idea makes it it doesn't make it better than if the other team members idea makes it whichever idea actually is best we all win so that the goal is to get to the best it's not to get to ours and to foster that relationship in all of the projects we do with other people
if someone's always politicking to get it their way it's a different job it's like you don't want to win because of the politics you want to win because the idea works
totally no I was gonna ask you if that is an explicit conversation you have up front with people you're working with so that you're setting the expectations getting to buy in having everyone on the same page with this is about the best ideas winning because then we all win not about the strongest egos winning the day and pushing things through is that explicit conversation you have with folks or encourage them to it can be if I'm aware that it's an issue
many of the bands I work with I've worked with for a long period of time and I also work with a lot of solo artists so it doesn't apply to either of those because if we've been working together for a long time it's baked into the process right but with the new artist it may be a sit down you know the first time it appears that someone's just fighting for their idea and maybe not even really listening to other people's ideas I would probably have a sit down conversation about it
you're talking about listening to say mixes using the right term with fresh ears and I remember in our first conversation we talk briefly about I think the term was the phrasing was leaving music in the studio so you can come back to fresh years you've heard something a hundred times actually give you personal situation and then maybe I can turn this into a free therapy session so I have been doing a bunch of fiction writing for the last six months for the first time
and I'm having so much fun with it it may in some ways tie into one of your other true true passions people may not realize this it's not bullshit professional wrestling I don't know if that's still the case but oh man they may actually climb this in a way that I can explain another time
but I've really been enjoying the fiction what I have found myself running into is I will have a short short story a few pages long and I will revise it forty seven times I'll revise it fifty six times and when I look at the amount of time I've spent on it a few things become apparent number one is that I'm not convinced revision fifty six is any better necessarily than revision forty nine
so maybe I could have spent less time on that and done more original drafting and then the second is when I look at something that many times it all begins to get blurry and it becomes so familiar that I it's very challenging to look at it with fresh eyes and I imagine that happens to folks you work with maybe it happened to you in this creative process what advice would you give say mayor how would you talk through that with me if I'm experiencing those things
first thing I would suggest is always referring back to the thing that you're revising I would never assume because you put more time into something it's getting better yeah most people equate work time with progress and that's not the case we're scientists experimenting and it's all an experiment and sometimes we get the experiment right right at the beginning we don't know it
and we won't know it until we may do a hundred other iterations that are not better so what I'll say is there's no way to save the time that you're hoping to save there are no shortcuts you gotta do the hundred experiments no matter what even if you get it right the first time it's the only way to know yeah and in addition to that I would add on top of it having patience and being able to step away long enough that you can compare idea fifty six your latest
with idea want iteration one at the beginning and see is it in fact better because sometimes I mean there's a whole history of albums that have come out where people always say oh the album didn't really work but the demos were great you know it was so much better the songwriting was great but we didn't really execute it right so the craft part of iteration after iteration
could just as well be making it worse as better it also can be making it better it's like there's no rule to it so that's why it's dangerous and then in terms of staying present and leaving the work and working on something else is a really good thing to do because then when you come back you've really exhausted another part of your brain you know work on something hard not that
and then when you come back to read it you have a better chance of being closer to a neutral view so let's take an album as a parallel if you have that you're working on an album and there are X number of tracks just for the sake of simplicity let's say they're 10 tracks and with this fiction I was working on 10 different stories related to greater houses and clans and all this stuff in this fictional world
so I had the ability to leave one and go to another if you're working with a band and they have this hypothetical album what are your guiding principles for how much to revise a given track before moving on to something else or if someone's feeling stock how much you push before moving to something else
and you think about getting that album done in terms of origination iteration skipping around if an idea is new and it's flowing I would get as much of at least a first draft of it all the way through a first draft of that idea I would probably not do any revision past the first draft and then I would move on to piece two I would want to get to the 10 that you're doing from in my case if I wanted to release 10 I would be working on 30 to get to 10 to release
so everything's a best of in my mind it's like we have the best of these three projects and make that one project it's certainly going to be better than the first 10
for sure so the first thing is I would overwrite second thing is I would get the ideas down as quickly as possible through the idea finish the thought then move on to the next one and get them all to the point where you have a great first draft of everything with the ideas before ever going back and doing another reason for that is something may happen in episode eight
that informs the choice you're going to make an episode one and two yeah that happens and it's natural to happen it's natural to happen when you look at it in a holistic way when you see the whole thing you realize what's important where there's opportunities for connections that when you're working on the individual pieces you'll never see
yeah totally and just on a micro level I was working with this illustrator on designs of these insignias for these various plans and by the time we got through maybe two rounds or visions with two different insignias I realized we have to see all these side by side absolutely to have some type of somatic interconnectedness I can't keep refining any given one I really have to see all the rough drafts or I should say
intermediate draft side by side or we're just we're going to end up with a product that is a frank answer because when you see them all together you may realize instead of going forward with them you might want to go backwards with them yeah maybe they need to be more abstract less specific
less clear you don't know it's impossible to know until you see the group and then you understand what's important and also you'll know oh these all look really good together and this one number six this one's just not working you only know that in the context of seeing them all
okay so I have a question for you about genre and that might not be the right word but you'll see where I'm going with it on one hand you have been involved with some albums like rain and blood slayer right which has an undeniable style to it it is just unmistakable and I remember getting that album horrified my parents got that on cassette back in the stone ages and it is one of a kind on the other hand I've read about examples let's just say red hot chili peppers
circa 1991 where you're encouraging them to reinvent their sound by incorporating different aspects and maybe they thought at least in the New York Times piece that the chili peppers find themselves as roughly let's just say rap and fees with funk and you imagine expanding that when do you go one direction versus the other if that's even a sensible question yeah
yeah it's a completely case by case thing and I don't know how to judge it it has to do with the whole arc of an artist's work if you look at the Beatles Beatles are always a great example because they're really as good as it gets and the Beatles made 13 albums over seven years and they're pretty radically different over that seven years they're not recognizable as the band before you might even see them go through several they probably went through
at least three maybe four different phases within seven years if you think about a big artist today over seven years you might get two albums that would probably be pretty similar to really a radical thing then on the other hand to the greatest groups of all time acdc and the Ramones they pretty much do acdc and the Ramones every time and it doesn't change and you don't want them to change
and there's not a right or wrong and it's not like the Ramones is better than the Beatles the Beatles are better than the Ramones they're just two different trajectories totally and it's helpful to figure out what your trajectory is
and it comes through the process I'll give you an example of a band that I worked with Lincoln Park is a band that was there was a movement called I don't even know what you call like the rap rock movement the first of the rap rock groups would have been rage against the machine let's say and then a bunch of groups came and rage against the machines wake and it was a big movement that got really big and then the last of those groups was Lincoln Park and one of the most successful
and they came to me after they had made I think three of the biggest rap rock albums ever made and there was some question about what do we do next and an important point in this is that rap rock as a genre was disappearing so they had a choice
and maybe this is part of the key and never thought about this before if you're part of a movement and if you're riding a wave of a movement and if the movement goes away look closely at whether you want to keep riding that same wave or not so in whatever reason my feeling was
Lincoln Park at that time if they made another one like their last one it would have been wildly successful and maybe one more but then it would have sounded like the oldie station you know like it would have been retro music
and at the time that they were making what they were making it was really cutting edge and their aspirations were bigger than being another rap rock group yeah so for them the idea to shift out of being just a rap rock group and tried different things was a good thing in the case the chili peppers they had made funk records with rap vocals for I think four albums up until the time that I worked with them.
And it was going fine and they could have done that forever but in spending time with them and seeing the musicianship and seeing what they did their potential and seeing the relationship with the audience that they had it was clear that the audience didn't love them just because of the style of music they were playing the audience love them because they love them and they put all of themselves into it.
So there was an opportunity to put all of themselves into more in the case of the chili peppers and just widen that envelope same with Lincoln Park just like widen the envelope and there been other artists I've worked with where I suggest doing the exact opposite you know where I suggest going back to what you used to do that worked there's not a right or a wrong way it really is looking at all of the elements and so much of it has to do with how they see themselves
and what their long term goals are you know I got to make an album with AC DC they never wanted to sound any different than AC DC for them that's all that music sounded like that's what music sounds like AC DC we do the good version of what music is there was no chance that they were going to start doing ballapia piano balance not going to happen.
It's a great example and it also strikes me that I have to imagine I don't know if this has been your experience but for long term endurance and just creative output sustained over longer periods it would seem to me most people this is certainly true for a lot of writers need to have some congruency between like what they're feeling and what they want to be. And what they're actually doing right even if you're surfing for a wave that is a huge movement you happen to do pretty well if that isn't.
Residating intrinsically with what you deeply want to do is going to be very hard just to stay in that for a period of time I would have to imagine it's impossible I think it's impossible and I think if you are trying to ride a wave and you're not already connected with all of yourself chances are that won't even be successful.
You know it will just be more the same it won't matter yeah let me ask you question about the book compositions and some of the decisions so the publishers who said to you like quick let's share what we think is going to work great so for your we're going to get get somebody to help you with a bio we're going to put in all the stories about the rock stars and this and that and then father Rick said no thank you thank you but no thank you and you've written this book my question for you because I know there's.
Thinking behind it or feeling behind it or both why not do both in the sense that you could. Sprinkle a little bit of this inside. A foundation of the other and probably make it work why was it important for you not to move strongly in the direction of where you were feeling the external pressure.
Two reasons first one is I want the book to be a timeless book yeah and if the examples were about me and my life they would be attached to me in my life they may not mean something in 20 years or 30 years or 50 years and I want it to be a forever like the Dow that I was written 3000 years ago I want it to be able to live outside of time that's one the other reason is
in terms of the nature of wanting the reader inviting the reader to participate in the book if I tell you a possible solution to a problem and if I paint a picture of the problem and the solution and you see the way it works when you're reading it you're envisioning your self solving that problem it's written in that way to allow you to see it happen
for yourself if I do that same exercise and it's a story about Jay Z you're not picturing yourself solving that problem you're thinking wow Jay Z such a great artist. Do you know what I'm saying it's I do it removes you from it I never wanted the sensational nature or the celebrity nature of how you hear a story when you know who's involved and it's someone you like or don't know what I'm saying.
I'm not wanting to know any information I'm giving the audience the chance to hear the information without the sensational stuff that's a distraction. I didn't want it to have the distraction I wanted it to actually be helpful. So I'm going to talk about a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show this episode is brought to you by wealthfront there is a lot happening in the US and global economies right now a lot.
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So what's the next point of view on the problem with wealthfront.com slash Tim to get started that's wealthfront.com slash Tim this was a paid endorsement by wealthfront. So coming back to the split testing for a moment, you had indicated at the beginning of that story that I think that is Or that section is within cooperation. I think the AB testings in a whole different section
I don't know if you want. All right, but the cooperation and the collaboration are different. I think yes collaboration you would expect to be working with others Mm-hmm But it's not the collaboration section is about working with yourself and the universe that everything we make
It's a collaboration because we're not doing anything ourselves everything we do is Based on the information that we take in our experiences in life what we learned in school a Conversation we had yesterday all of the things that make us who we are We bring into all of our projects. So we're always in collaboration. It's never our idea To build off that there's a quote that I wrote down from page 41 which is Look for what you notice but no one else sees and perhaps this is
Related right to that collaboration between the seer and the scene the receiver and the sender maybe one the same But I don't want to take us to esoteric What does that mean to you look for what you notice but no one else sees and maybe if there are any examples that come to mind or how can
Someone begin to hone that if you speak to a scientist or a mathematician about some problem that was very difficult to solve That eventually when they get to the solution It's not exotic it more often than not It was right there the whole time. It was so obvious
We miss what's right in front of us. We have great opportunities to participate in incredible beauty and inspiration every day everywhere we go and Opening ourselves to be in that state that allows for us to see the thing that everyone else is walking by and happen to me Yesterday I was walking by a tree with my son and I noticed that there was a big tree and a very narrow tree
And the narrow tree had these like flat. I don't even know how to describe them. They looked like almost a shape of butterflies big flat protrusions sticking way off this little tree They were dark in color and it wasn't clear to me. Are those part of the tree? Is that something that's growing on the tree have no idea?
But I've walked by that same tree every day for six weeks and I never noticed that before and here I noticed it and now I have a question It's like in addition to it being beautiful and in addition to having the conversation with my son It's like you think that those are growing on the tree or is that part of the tree?
And it's like I think maybe they're growing on it Fascinating, but I walk by it many times without noticing it I noticed it and if I was gonna draw something that day I would probably try to Analyze and draw those because it was so it's so cool looking and I never saw anything like it before hiding in plain sight hiding in plain sight so I'm gonna pull up Something else which is at the very beginning of the book Just a quote and I'm not sure how to pronounce this name. So I'm gonna give it a go
These are Robert Henry or Robert Henri. I'm guessing H.E.N.R.I and the quote is he's American I think it might be Henry, but I'm not I'm also not sure. Okay. I think so all right So I'll go with Robert Henry H.E.N.R.I and the object isn't to make art It's to be in that wonderful state which makes art inevitable. I would love for you to Flesh this out a little bit and maybe the way to do it would be to peer
Stories of your own. I mean you may have just given one, but how you cultivate the pre-cursures the Elemental pieces of this state that makes art inevitable and I could be through yourself could be through people you've worked with But what does that look like when it's done well?
the whole book is is the answer to that question and The reason the subtitle of the book is a way of being is Being a great artist we think of it as the person who makes the thing we think about it as the making What makes an artist great Happens not in the making it happens in the way of being in the world The way of experiencing the world the way of noticing the thing that someone else doesn't notice the way of seeing What's beautiful when everyone else sees the mundane and being able to?
Represent that back in a way that other people get a glimpse of what we saw that they didn't notice We get to walk around in awe all day and have our breath taken away and then we get to portray that in Something where someone else hopefully could have that same sense of awe from something we made This for me begs the question of Is there a way to distinguish between good distraction and bad distractions? So bad distraction might be commercial considerations that lead you to chase this
Hungry ghost in a way that's completely impede your creative process, right? So maybe that's a bad distraction Which we talked a bit about in our last conversation on the podcast Somebody from the outside looking at you staring at this growth on the tree might say Rick's got a lot of important stuff to do
He's getting really distracted, right? So is there a good light in which to paint distraction or a way to think About that to what extent you immersed yourself in the the sublime details of the rest of the world misses and And alternate that with periods of taking it into the workshop so to speak The work is the work of a craftsman the building of things. That's the crafts person's job and There's a difference between a crafts person and an artist
One's not better than the other. They're both fine It's just a different way of looking at it the crafts person is Making the thing and making them all the same and making them all match or making the one that that somebody ordered and It's a very specific
How do you want it? Okay, I can make it that way the way you want it. That's the crafts person the artist is Making the thing that you didn't know you want the thing that you didn't know that you couldn't live without the thing that you didn't know was possible and To do that it's different than learning how to make things. Yeah, it's a different process It has more to do with our connection to the world than anything else and when I say connection to the world that could mean
Watching old movies it could mean reading great literature. It could mean going to museums It could mean being in nature. It could mean doing something physical like I would consider exercise a form of distraction from our work if you're Concerned about something if you go exercise really hard chances are you won't be thinking about what you're concerned about if you're looking hard enough Same with the ice tub that we got to do together when you're in the ice
Nothing else matters. Everything's fine. They're also Specific distraction that's really helpful for the artist where Because we tend to be overthinking creatures this goes back to your earlier question about do I move on to number two before you know before I finish number one We tend to over things like oh, well, I could work on number one forever. I'll never gonna get to number 10 There are certain distractions we can do that
Make it easier. There was an artist I was working with I can say Neil Diamond the singer and Neil Diamond sings is his incredible voice And he sings like almost like an opera singer like very big projecting voice and people tend to think of him as a Overly dramatic singer some people might even make fun of him for being an overly dramatic singer
And he's a rudimentary guitar player at best. He writes his songs on guitar But he's not a studio musician when we were working together I insisted that when he sang he also played guitar and he's like I never play on my records Why would I play guitar on my records? I could have a great guitar player say no? No, no, I just want you to play What happened was Through his playing he was Distracted enough By having to hold down the chord changes
He was able to sing just like himself. There was no potential To make it a performance and the goal was to not make it a performance the goal was to get closer to reality Where it's real where you believe what he's saying You know, we didn't want a Shakespearean performance we wanted
His heart opening And we were best able to get that when he was playing guitar This example ties in perfectly to where I was going and And where I'd love to go which is breaking out of sameness when we have these habits We may have these defaults and there are different reasons for
Sticking with sameness right or different explanations one is we found this let's just say genre that works It's doing well Let's kind of milk this as long as we can there's a at least one other form of sameness Which is I have these habits and I don't know how to break these habits Right like I would love to try something new But I'm not sure how to do it because I've been doing more or less
Something that rhymes with this for so long. What are some other ways you've seen people successfully innovate experiment and Maybe get off of those well-worn facts An example for you writing fiction is a great example because you've written nonfiction up till now
Although I still think you don't have that issue because you wrote your first book which was a business book It was wildly successful and then I remember your second book was a fitness book and publishers were like you're the business guy What are you writing a business book? Yeah exactly?
So you don't have this problem or at least you didn't have the problem then when we talked about it then I don't have a problem I think if you look back at your work and you notice a Pattern that runs through it There are two choices one you can double down on that pattern and through recognizing it go deeper into it And that could be interesting or you could recognize the pattern and say okay What would it be like if I went in a different direction if your work tends to be dark?
You've done dark dark dark dark dark dark. What would the light version be like?
Interesting who knows yeah, what's the other end of the seesaw and Even if you do that experiment and don't like the results when you come back to working in the dark You're gonna have a different relationship to it You're gonna be able to do something new even if you're gonna go back to the same Thread that you've been following breaking out of it Even as a failed experiment can help you get firmly back On the thread in a way maybe more secure than you ever understood it before
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me if you're always in the cave and you want to describe the cave and the darkness in the cave And you're gonna have maybe a broader Spectrum of vocabulary and certainly personal experience to use if you spend some time walking around in the sunlight And then you go back in the cave Yeah, you'll notice completely different things
Yeah, I like that and question. This is also self interested question, but I'm writing this fiction and I'm not using Public consensus or requests to drive any creative decisions and I feel that's important for me to say up front because I Know that's a risk when you start letting mass opinion or crowd input drive the entire creative process. I think you can end up being a
Camel as a horse designed by committee type of situation. So I'm not doing that what I have noticed is Unlike with my nonfiction on one hand
I really want to get some positive reinforcement because I'm new and little wobbly. I'm proud of certain aspects of it but looking for that Can be a risky business because if you go online if you go on Twitter There are for every one person who may give constructive feedback There are 10 others who are just going to try to lock your head off with really destructive feedback What type of advice do you give to your artists or would you give to me with respect to fully ignoring or cherry picking or
Or soliciting feedback it doesn't have to be from the internet, but just given that context. What would you say?
I would say to try to find a way to Get feedback from people who genuinely care about you and your work Not a general reader and in your case specifically Because you write a blog and you email that blog to people you have a big mailing list So I would start if I were you not posting things on Twitter, but just sending them to your mailing list and getting response that way because if someone signed up to your mailing list They're not signing up to hate you
They're invested. They don't want to be erasing your emails every time you send them They're welcoming them So I would start with with a welcoming audience if you're going to be getting any Any feedback and I would have a because they are a welcoming audience have a big enough
Scale where it's not just I love this. I love this. I love this You to get some actual helpful information Let me ask you this is a bit of a left turn, but I'm so curious to get your take And my apologies if a lot of people have asked you this, but I've never heard you speak to this publicly I first and foremost would consider myself a nonfiction writer and In the last few months I've been tracking Artificial intelligence enhanced or dependent Copy production blog posts
Tell me a story about a guy trying to get a piece of toast out of his toaster with a butter knife in the style of the King James Bible Some of what you're seeing with chat you putty and so on is astonishing and Most recently and this is speaking as someone who comes from an art family and as someone who want to be a color
Penciler for a long time. I've been watching with some degree of awe these tools like mid-journey and Stample diffusion and so on some of which are now being applied to music and they're interpolating from say keyboard strokes to Improv jazz with a touch of funk and it's been astonishing to
Watch how much this has gone vertical in the last few months at least in terms of mass adoption and experimentation 15 years ago at least as covered in the New York Times 2007 you said that the way or one of the ways to counter not counteract
But offset file sharing was to offer people a subscription model much like cable right so low and behold that has happened and People have these subscriptions and they have music at their fingertips and they're living room in their car etc what are your thoughts on artificial intelligence and
How it fits or doesn't fit into creativity, I think of it as an end It does strike me as interesting as means It could be helpful for example What's interesting about the things we make again isn't the making the computers doing the making? It's not doing the noticing So I might ask in the same way that we spend time like hip hop producers do great digging We'll listen to hundreds of old albums Track by track looking for a moment that's interesting
We're not looking for the song. We're not looking for the piece of work. We're looking for a moment where things go right Or a moment that just strikes us and then that's an element that we can integrate into our work So I might consider having a music making program Constantly making music and then listen for at any point in time over the hours and hours all day long I probably have a playing in the background all all day and then any time there was a moment that
Made me look you know that would catch my ear. I would sample that moment and try to build something with human taste With that as a seed to build from or as an element used. I think what's interesting the human curation aspect of art is it's what makes it art so I don't even know what it is if a computer makes it I don't know I've also not seen any Personally thus far I've not seen any computer generated images based on
instructions that have moved me in any way. I haven't felt them. I haven't felt them I may see them. I might laugh at them or I might think oh, that's a funny cartoon but never does it make me want to learn more or go deeper or Feel something bigger There's also the question that if humans are going to want to or be willing to feel something if they know that it's been generated By a computer right by AI. Well, they won't always know. I can't imagine they would always know right?
Yeah, it's gonna get harder and harder to distinguish When you hear something that catches your ear or when you sink back to some of these songs whether it's From the Beatles or Neil Young or otherwise that move you deeply What does that feel like? Can you describe that Quickening because it strikes me that you use your felt sense and response to things as a guiding Rod of sorts. Can you describe what that feeling is like?
One of the elements is surprise. It holds my attention and it surprises me. If it comes on and I like it and it only does What it did to make me and initially like it? I Might lose interest But if it does something that's interesting and catches my ear and Makes me lean forward to understand what's happening. Why am I feeling this what what's going on here? And it holds that curiosity and And anytime it makes me want to turn it off. I know that's not for me. I want to turn it off
It's not for me and if I want to listen to it forever. I really like it If your son comes to you Who knows when could be tomorrow, but let's just say it's a handful of your shenanigans Dad, I really want to be a music producer and And somehow made the plea could you walk me through this paddawon training to become the best music producer possible How would you begin to respond to that or how might you think about that?
Would there be certain things you'd want to impart? It's probably absorbing a lot just through Exposure to you and us Moses and so on. I'm sure I think it would really just start with talking about learning about Seeing lots of art listening to lots of music seeing as much as we could Trying to understand why do we like the things we like and not like the things we don't what are the qualities in there?
Some of them are not Describable some of them are beyond words But to get in tune with these feelings that language doesn't do justice to and To feel that feeling when your breath gets taken away. I feel like for Young children they probably have it more often than we do as jaded adults because the world is still new to them so The first time you see anything grand. I've never been to the Grand Canyon I imagine the first time I go even though I haven't been there. I've seen pictures
I will probably have some feeling of wow can't believe it's that big. That's my guess and whatever my imagination is of it won't be As dramatic and grand as what I expect to see when I get there. We'll see when that happens There was a sunset yesterday. I was doing a Tai Chi exercise on the beach and there was an incredible sunset and the The way the light was reflecting on the water and the colors in the sky and the changes and in one direction it was orange and like
Right light and in the other direction it was dark and almost stormy even though it wasn't stormy at all But the sense of it was like if you were on a boat it would feel like we're going into the storm and Feeling all of that drama was so exciting and I came back
After and it's like I wasn't even here anymore. You know, I like I was taken into another world and And the more often you can do that and experience that feeling of being Just taken out of your body by art or by nature or by stimulus whatever it is and Then having that as your meter setting for what we're looking for What's the thing that we can make that starts touching those buttons? the button of I never want to leave here
Amazing. This is the same world that I you know when I got out of my car and walked here This is the same place it's unbelievable That dissolution of time that stepping into the slipstream where things seem to Disappear but at the same time everything is present all at once which might have been the experience and amplify I would say and amplify more it's just like There's so much to take in mm-hmm, and it's just overwhelming and all beautiful
Who if you met and you don't have to name names, but I'm curious if you could describe Anyone I mean you could also name names, but people who've been able to access that type of state with regularity without becoming dissociated from this consensus reality right because there are people you meet who are Almost always in and I'd want to say altered but sort of a parallel state like that But they're not able to operate in the world very well What have you seen in terms of people who are able to
regularly access that and also are able to operate well in this reality? I would say the ones who really can do it best Manage in this reality, but I wouldn't say that they I feel like they live in the other place So Neil Young would be an example who lives in The place where the music is and he's great on a day-to-day basis and fine
But when the music starts and when he's playing his instrument and when he's inside of that Every time not sometimes it's like he's goes to another place and It's magic wherever he's going the music there is real How much of that do you think is is like an
Inborn ability to have a very high vertical jump or to have the hamstring and Tenant attachments if like an Usain Bolt for sprinting versus cultivated now we can all become faster runners We can all learn to jump a bit higher Have you met anyone who has
Really trained that ability or are most of them just by virtue of being these brilliant artists who enter your orbit Coming into it with just a very high Set point for entering this basis You can definitely get there in different ways that said Not everyone can be Da Vinci Yeah
We can all be the best we can be that's all we can ever be is the best we can be Being the best we can be doesn't necessarily mean that when we do our best We are the best in the world or even world class we're not all world class at everything all the time It doesn't matter though the people who were great who find their way in Some people might say Bob Dylan doesn't have a great voice But he's a singer songwriter who is maybe the most loved in the world
So he wasn't born with this virtuoso. He doesn't sing like Neil Diamond Trees And some people I'm sure very happy that he doesn't Do you know what I'm saying? It's like we're not all graded everything
Hmm. So if we get great at the thing that we're great at And if we get get great at the thing that we're great at that not so many other people are great at in the way that we are And that's usually the case with music like the reason There are so many musical artists and the reason you know I have thousands of albums of artists and thousands of artists that I follow that I love Isn't because they're all the best one It's they all do something really good particular to them
And I want the one who really does the good thing particular to them and Johnny Ramon can't play guitar like Eric Clapton But he can play guitar like Johnny Ramon And I'm good with that I'm good with both do you know what I'm saying? I do find your thing. Where's your connection What's interesting and hopefully it lines with what you're interested in doing because that's probably the only way that it becomes a Sustainable thing How do you manage your inspirational intake on that many artists?
Are you listening all the time? Do you have set time? You'll sit down and listen for a handful of hours? Does that look like I'm a mass consumer of information and art all the time I'm always reading, listening, taking in stuff But I'm not always taking in it's what I enjoy I'm not doing it like homework. I'm doing it because that's the reason I am who I am is because that's how I've always done it That's my default mechanism is
I want to hear as much as I can I want to understand more. I don't want to hear stuff. I don't want to hear But I want to hear everything that I might want to hear and I want to exhaust the list make sure I'm not missing anything's best I can I try to dive as deep as I can lately. It's hard just because there's so much of all kinds of content So certain things fall by the wayside for example movies. I haven't seen very many new movies in a long time
On occasion, but not so many. Why is that? I don't know. It's just one of the things that fell out. I'm not sure why There are a couple of movies I'm excited to see now and I may or may not get see them. Well, this will be topical. I'm curious why you're just in to see them. What are the movies? What is one or two?
Two that I want to see there's a new David Bowie documentary that I'm curious about A friend of mine directed it and it sounds really beautiful and I tend to like documentaries The other is a movie called tar which several people told me they really loved and Usually when several people tell me something's good. I feel like the universe wants me to see this like Like it's the way I can interpret it is
If more than one person is recommending something. I don't talk to that many people if multiple people are telling me you got to see this chances are Something in the universe wants this to happen. So I want to follow through
I want to do my part the muse is winking at you from across the room being like hey pal come on. I'm giving you the cue all right tar what is your coaching or your Wisdom to artists who are concerned about endurance and the endurance could come in the form of touring before they do their next studio recording could come in in many different
species. I'm sure in my case There's definitely part of me that wonders How will I continue to execute as I hope for at least a while in writing one short fiction piece per week? That's what I would like to do because I feel like that cadence is something I can probably manage There will be weeks where it'll be tougher than others because of the revision But there's certainly a small part of me that's concerned that that will begin to stack up right?
I'll be like oh shit. I thought I was going to finish one a week But now I have two that are in revision one that's in draft and it's Thursday What am I going to do? So that's my personal context But we could expand it to others you've worked with who might have some concern How many hours will it take to do the one? This is a very fair question and I will say that in some
I don't know what the magic is I sit down. I've had the right coffee with the right omelet I don't know what the pixie dust is and I zoom through and then Two hours I'm done and it just comes out and I look at it a week later. I'm like I'm not going to change anything Maybe I'll tweak a few words, but it's done and then there are others that will take 10 to 15 hours which is in addition to all of my other
Projects right the podcast and everything else. There's a lot there's a lot of other things going on which I enjoy doing Yeah, always yeah, but let's let's let's say 15 hours Okay, so You can decide how important it is to you and if it's really important to you you can say I'm going to make a commitment where I'm going to do this even if it takes 15 hours you could decide I'm going to do it Every Monday You know, I'm not going to go to sleep until I have the one for the week
You could do it every day. You could do it as often as you want if you're willing to make that commitment And in terms of running dry Clearly they won't some will be better than others The whole process will make you better. You know this whole adventure at the end of 50 weeks You'll be better at it than you were the first week clearly And it'll be a rollercoaster ride and it'll be highs and lows on the way and by the way
You put this on yourself. You like I am deciding. I want one a week It's not like there's a gun to your head and you know, you're not going to make it if you don't do it So it depends on how strong your commitment is but 15 hours out of all of the hours of a week regardless of anything else you have to do If you commit to it, that's absolutely doable because there's a lot more than 15 hours in a week
You could commit to doing it. You're every waking hour if you decide to commit It's purely a commitment now you can't control what comes out of it and Maybe at some point you might realize this is not the right cadence for me who knows? Yeah, or you may decide to do two a week at some point like this is it's rolling Be open but starting with a commitment that you think is a doable commitment If you think this is a doable amount
Commit to it and just do it. I mean you've exercised before you have great discipline It's purely a matter of discipline. You could do anything you commit to Gotta get it on the calendar. Just have it locked out It's a case of me also Taking something that is new and maybe Mistaking it for entirely new does that make sense because I don't think about fiction in the same way that I think about exercise
So I'll do my exercise and that's on autopilot and I've done it and I understand it whereas the fiction I I might over Exaggerate in terms of it's exotic nature and the newness and the Alien life form that is this new narrative Approach I'm trying to take but I suppose on so many levels
It's just like getting the groceries or doing something else It's absolutely the same as everything else you do And maybe there's a way that you can think about it as an opportunity to have fun Because in those times you're going to get to find out what these characters are doing and I'm I hope you're curious like yeah, I hope you want to know what's gonna happen next and
That's a good feeling. It's like if you watch any type of a series When you get left at the end of the first week of the series second week or third week and there's another one And you can't wait till the next one comes maybe you can train yourself To know that I get to see what happens in the story next week
So I am there. This is the good news the good news is that part of why I want to play with fiction is that I get to set the initial conditions And this space and this world I get to throw in all these weird Lucense that I don't know how I'm gonna tie up and then I get to tap dance and Sort of rap Morse code on the wall and see what comes back
And that's fun. It's because it's totally different from nonfiction. It's totally different And so this is the first time that I have really on a weekly basis been Dancing with the muses in a sense In such a direct way. Yeah, it's been fantastic How did you think about pacing with the book because there's On one hand the not knowing of what's going to emerge But you could wait and wait and wait when the book would never manifest So how did you think for yourself about commitment and pacing or
Time scale anything? How did you think about the book?
I thought a bit is I'm willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes for it to be as good as it could be Until I don't know what to do anymore And that happened some time ago really But at that time it wasn't in the present form So it didn't start with okay, they're gonna be 78 areas of thought and these are what the 78 areas of thought are and then I write those That is not what happened it was a general conversation over years about the philosophy of the creative process and
Then looking at you know one point a thousand pages of Talk that's it's all about creativity, but it's not in any order and it's not in any form And then it was years to figure out how to turn that into what this is right to go from the transcripts and the exploration and conversation to The book in the format that we we currently see it
Yeah, it wasn't planned this way at all I went in with a blank slate. I had an intention I had an intention of what I wanted it to accomplish But that's all how I wanted it to feel I would say that's another part of it when you read it It feels a certain way there were earlier versions where the information was Another version of the same information But it didn't Make you want to make something it didn't
Hit you in an emotional way. I can only read the book you know a couple of sections at a time and I for me It's a very slow read Not because it's complicated, but because There's just a lot to think about It's talking about internal experiences and it's Just a lot to consider
I think you and I were texting about the way one might approach reading this book and I think you were Saying that one approach could be just one short chapter a few pages before bed And that's it right because I'm reading it and if you actually sit to assimilate this and to soak in it
If you read a hundred pages is you're going to be getting water-borted by I'm so much Potential energy and so many different directions that would be very hard to digest over a really short period of time When this book comes out and the book will be out shortly
And let's just say six months have passed Are there any sections you really hope people don't overlook and of course you want people to read the whole thing but There are people who will pick it up and probably try to go to whatever the sexiest shiny audits are in the draw Their attention. Are there any particular sections that you would Hope people do not miss Nope, I hope anyone who's interested opens it randomly Read something wherever their eyes go. I hope they find something that's helpful
And if so maybe they want to do that again. That's all Ha ha ha I would expect no less from Rick Rubin Well Rick is there anything else that you would like to talk about or mention I mean we need to set a date so that I can actually see you in person to give you a hug it'd be nice to see you again. I would love that and We've covered a lot already is there anything else that you would like to share in terms of closing comments
Questions suggestions public complaints anything at all. I can't think of anything anything. Anything you can think of I can say this Rick that your book Creative Act a way of being has found me at the perfect time. So I'm glad it took so long in a sense because It's catching me right at the time that I'm flying by on this train called experimental fiction and I consider grab the book as you handed off to me
and I think it will be if tremendous help because you have been not just the creator of Of so much you've been the steppard of so much and you've also had an opportunity to work in so many different capacities with so many different artists that your pattern recognition
and your way of interpreting and conveying that I think is unique it really is One of a kind and I can say that also just having spent time with you I appreciate the way that you think and furthermore because humans are built for thinking we have this thing
The blessing and the curse of this huge prefrontal cortex, but I am particularly impressed with how You are able to use your other means of knowing and Fences to inform what you do with this incredible brand of yours and reading the book I'm very optimistic that you're gonna help people to Calibrate and open themselves up to greater possibilities. So I just wanted to congratulate you I know how long this has been in the making so congratulations Rick
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I'm so thank you so much for Giving it some time. Oh, yeah, what I need because I only have a PDF I need a physical copy and I'll take a galley. It doesn't need to be finished Just something I can carry around because I'm still very old-fashioned. I like to scribble. It looks like this is the prototype edition
Oh, I can see it. I can see it. I can see it. Oh, that's that's nice The main version is the opposite the background is gray and the type is black and the equally beautiful Love it. But this was just first as a like an a sample for us to understand how yeah, yeah, I love it Very iconic very simple very sort of zen painting brushstroke and dig it man Well, Rick. Thank you so much for the time people can find you on twitter at rick rouven and we'll link to everything including the book and
Anything that came up in conversation at Tim. Blogs such podcasts for people listening but To be continued. I'm excited now that we're not in lockdown and Have to get a get a data on the calendar to say hello. So please give my best to the family
We'll do I may can't wait till we see each other in person too. Yeah, great to see you Rick. Same man Hey guys, this is Tim again Just one more thing before you take off and that is five bullet Friday Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend Between one and a half and two million people subscribed to my free newsletter my super short newsletter called five bullet Friday Easy to sign up easy to cancel
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This episode is brought to you by Peloton and their brand new peloton row peloton row brings personalized form features and guidance to rowing To help you learn and master your stroke This was always a weak point for me meaning before I used peloton row and I got to test a unit a few weeks ago here in Austin Which blew me away?
My form was just a question mark and I also tended to flame out after five or ten minutes on a row I just really didn't know what I was doing and with peloton row that all changed the instructors first and foremost highly trained fitness pros Many different types who motivate you through every rowing workout. I really enjoyed my training sessions with
Alex Karewoski specifically. He's a current high-level international competitor in rowing so you know his technique has been refined Peloton offers a huge variety of workouts like high intensity interval training hit rows and endurance rows and more With the feedback that I was able to get so you effectively see a profile of yourself and based on sensors at different points in the machine
You will see feedback. I was able to then do a much more sustained workout to actually Tax different metabolic systems and I felt spectacular afterwards form features like pharmacist indicate how to improve your stroke in class in real time
And you also get a detailed post-class breakdown so you can hit the row harder but more technically Next time in my opinion you can turn off the pharmacist after about three minutes or so you'll probably get Most of what you're going to get in each of those sessions And you don't want to become too overly concerned with that so that it detracts from your experience with all these features You can personalize your target metrics you become the expert at the level and pace that feels good for you
You get all the cardio and strength in one shot while protecting your joints and ligaments in a high intensity But low impact method of exercise and this blew my mind also my ankles sometimes Hurt when I've tried rowing in the past and by getting the proper instruction
I felt no pain in my feet or my ankles whatsoever and the peloton row fits seamlessly into your life So whether you have a 10 minutes segment of time a little break between calls Or if you want to do something longer in a low impact row on a recovery day all those options are available And the peloton row also can be stored vertically So when you're not using it, it's out of sight out of mind It's also effectively near silent when you're using it There's a class for every schedule
You can work out hard for the time that you have and trust that you're getting the most out of each workout right now It is the perfect time to get rowing with peloton row I can promise that you've never rode like this before the form feedback the form assists I was really really impressed peloton row offers a variety of classes for all levels plus game-changing features That help you get rowing or advance the rowing you already do so explore peloton row at one peloton
That's one one peloton dot com slash row one more time. That's one peloton dot com slash row